Matt Lauer fired by NBC News Transcript 11/29/17 The Rachel Maddow Show

Eric Mouthaan

Date: November 29, 2017
Guest: Eric Mouthaan

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: And thanks to you at home for joining us this

NBC News fired Matt Lauer, the longtime host of the “Today Show”, today
after NBC says a credibility allegation of sexual harassment was brought to
the attention of the company on Monday night this week. Matt Lauer was
fired overnight last night.

Then, this afternoon “Variety” magazine and “The New York Times” published
details of other allegations of sexual harassment and sexual misconduct on
the job by Matt Lauer. The instance described by “The Times” and “Variety”
appeared to be different than the allegation that was brought to NBC News
on Monday night. That led to Mr. Lauer`s firing.

Now, NBC News is obviously our parent organization here at MSNBC. As you
might imagine, this news has gone off like a proverbial bob inside this
building. I don`t have any access to special insider information about the
story because I work here. I sort of wish I did.

But we have spent a considerable portion of today trying to report out the
details of this story, how it was handled, how big of a scandal this is.
We`ve been working on that today since this news broke this morning and
we`ll have our version of this story coming up in just a moment.

Along with NBC News reporter Stephanie Gosk, who is aggressively reporting
this story for NBC News – again, with all of the awkwardness that comes
from the fact that this is an NBC News story. Again, it is weird to report
on a story that is directly about an organization that you are a part of,
but when these things come up, that`s what you`ve got to do. So, we`ve got
that story ahead.

Our colleagues across town at CNN had to deal with their own iteration of
this story today. A senior producer on Jake Tapper`s show was fired from
CNN today for, quote, behavior attributed to the producer that does not
align with the standards and values of CNN.

Leaping from the news media to Congress, but staying on the same story, one
of the founders of the Congressional Black Caucus, until recently the
senior Democrat on the Judiciary Committee, the longest-serving member of
the House of Representatives, period, John Conyers today faced renewed and
wider calls for his resignation as allegations from former Conyers staffers
continue to pile up.

NBC`s Channel 4 in Detroit was first to report tonight that John Conyers`
plan is not to resign from Congress but to announce after the holidays,
after Christmas, to announce in January that he will not stand for re-
election next year. That`s the plan as of today, according to Channel 4
NBC`s affiliate in Detroit.

Now, the Michigan Democratic Party has not yet weighed in on John Conyers.
And the amount of pressure on him from his colleagues in Washington appears
even today to be in flux, as several of his Democratic congressional
colleagues have now called for his resignation explicitly. And as the
number of Conyers` accusers has risen to four.

Now, in the House of Representatives today, Congress did vote to require
annual anti-harassment training for members of Congress and their staff,
which really does seem like the least they could do. It will perhaps not
surprise you to learn that they decided to take that teeny, teeny, teeny,
tiny baby step forward today in the bravest way possible. They decided to
just say today that that vote was unanimous. They took it as a voice vote,
which means in practical terms that nobody ever actually had to go on
record one way or the other agreeing that, yes, maybe it`s time for
Congress to join the 1970s and require sexual harassment training once a
year for members of Congress and their staff.

Tomorrow in the House, Attorney General Jeff Sessions will be testifying
behind closed doors to the Intelligence Committee. In addition to Attorney
General Sessions appearing under oath for that committee tomorrow, it`s
also been reported but not confirmed by the committee that the same
committee tomorrow is also going to hear from Erik Prince, the brother of
Education Secretary Betsy DeVos, a major Trump donor, the founder of the
controversial security firm Blackwater that became so notorious during the
Iraq War. Erik Prince had previously been described as an unofficial Trump
administration intermediary who met during the transition with a
representative from Russian President Vladimir Putin`s office at a
secretive meeting in the Seychelles Islands.

Well, it was reported this week that the person Erik Prince met with in the
Seychelles Islands was not just some random emissary from Putin`s office,
it was reported by “The Intercept” this week and confirm by Erik Prince`s
company that the Russian dude he met with in the Seychelles just happens to
run the Russian sovereign wealth fund, which is a multibillion dollar
entity funded by the Russian government.

So, that news that it was the sovereign wealth fund guy, that news expands
by one, the number of Russians by one connected to the Putin government who
we now know made contact with the Trump campaign or Trump associates during
the election or during transition.

We also, I should tell you, we heard on our show, we heard from that
Russian sovereign wealth fund today after our report on that story last
night. And I cannot wait to tell you what exactly we heard from them.
That`s coming up tonight.

At the other end of Capitol Hill in the Senate tonight, they voted along
party lines. All Republicans saying yes, all Democrats saying no, to
advance the Republican tax bill for a final vote. Remember, this tax bill
has already passed the House. The version of it that they want to pass in
the Senate would throw 13 million Americans off their health insurance
coverage. It would increase the deficit by nearly $1.5 trillion. It was
raise taxes significantly on people at the lowest end of the income
spectrum. It would raise taxes on a majority of the American middle class
families as well.

For all those reasons and more, this tax thing is profoundly unpopular with
the American public, but Republicans in the Senate have now cleared the
decks to take that to a vote. We`re going to have more on that coming up
tonight, including what we`ve just learned about what`s in the bill.

I mean, this is a massive multitrillion dollar bill. They`ve held no hears
on it, they`ve held no substantive debate on the bill. So, even as they
are preparing to cast their final votes on that, we`re just now starting to
figure out some of what`s in it. We`ve also got the latest on its
prospects for passage and what`s likely to happen next in this fast-moving
thing they are doing. So, that`s coming up this hour.

The president today went to Missouri to promote the tax bill. If those of
us reporting on that bill are not clear what`s in it, I should tell you
it`s not clear to the president himself knows what`s in it either. But the
president did insistently make one quite blatantly false claim about the
tax bill today and he made it over and over again.


fortune, this thing. Believe me. Believe me. This is not good for me.


MADDOW: Believe me. I think the president feels safe in making a claim
like that because he`s the only presidential candidate, the only president
since Nixon not to release his own tax returns. So, we don`t technically
know all the information we could know about how his own tax policies would
affect him and his families.

But the little bit of tax information we do have from Donald Trump
indicates that the president`s claims about this tax bill not helping him,
those claims are just wildly false. NBC News has analyzed what`s been made
publicly available about the president`s taxes and it`s likely in this new
Republican tax bill, at least the House version of it that passed already,
it`s likely that bill could put over a billion dollars in the pockets of
the president himself and his family.

So, we`ve got eyes on all of those moving parts tonight. All of those
stories. Got a lot of show coming up over the course of the next hour.

But while we`re on the subject of politicians saying laugh out loud,
blatantly untrue things, today`s news brought back in a rush one of the
all-time, hall of fame greatest, blatantly wrong made up things ever said
by somebody running for president.

In 2012, Mitt Romney was the Republican nominee to run for president
against Barack Obama. Romney ended up losing and Obama obviously got a
second term. But do you remember who the runner-up was to Mitt Romney in
the 2012 Republican primaries?

It`s kind of surprisingly hard to think your way back to this answer. But,
in fact, it was Rick Santorum, who had previously been a senator from the
great state of Pennsylvania. He was turfed out of office by a gigantic
margin by his own constituents in Pennsylvania. He was replaced by a
Democratic senator, Bob Casey.

But then Rick Santorum mounted a comeback, in part by becoming part of a
permanent presidential campaigner. And in 2012, he ended up being the last
man standing against Mitt Romney. And that was weird for a lot of reasons,
but one of the reasons it was weird because Rick Santorum campaigned for
the presidency in 2012 by very earnestly, very sincerely in his Rick
Santorum way telling audiences stuff that was just absolutely completely
made up and bonkers. Stuff like this.


different bracelets, if you are elderly. And the bracelet is: do not
euthanize me. Because they have voluntary euthanasia in the Netherlands.
But half the people who are euthanized every year, and it`s 10 percent of
all deaths for the Netherlands, half of those people are euthanized
involuntarily at hospitals because they are older and sick.

And so, elderly people in the Netherlands don`t go to the hospital. They
go to another country because they`re afraid because of budget purposes
that they will not come out of that hospital if they go in with a sickness.


MADDOW: You can hear the crowd reacting, oh, my God. Ten percent of
people get killed by euthanasia? Half of them are people who don`t want to
be killed. The old people have to wear don`t kill me bracelets, if they go
to the hospital, they never get out. They have to leave the country if
they break it – none of that is true. None of it.

But that was in part how Rick Santorum campaigned for the presidency in
2012. The Dutch kill their old people. Their old people are terrified to
go to the hospital.

And at the time, it kind of upset the Dutch that this is how somebody who
might be president of the United States was talking about there country.
So, at the time, when Rick Santorum was campaigning for the presidency and
making those claims, we brought a Dutch reporter on to this show to try to
sort that out and it was one of the weirder interviews I have ever had to
do in this business.


MADDOW: For the benefit of our viewers, I hope you won`t mind if I – if I
could just ask you some yes or no questions to clarify what Mr. Santorum
said about your country. He says 10 percent of all deaths in the
Netherlands are the result of euthanasia.


MADDOW: He says half of all those people, so 5 percent of all deaths in
the country, are people being euthanized involuntarily.

MOUTHAAN: Totally not true.

MADDOW: He says elderly people in the Netherlands do not go to the

MOUTHAAN: That`s not true. Of course, they go.

MADDOW: He says specifically, elderly people in the Netherlands don`t go
for the hospital and instead leave the country because they are afraid of
Dutch hospitals.

MOUTHAAN: Not true and insulting.

MADDOW: The reason he says they are afraid of hospital is that anybody
going to the hospital with sickness, as he put it, in the Netherlands will
not come out of that hospital. If you go to the hospital with sickness,
the hospital will kill you for budget purposes.

MOUTHAAN: Not true, and funny but insulting at the same time.

MADDOW: Last one. Elderly people wear specialty bracelets in the
Netherlands that say “please don`t euthanize me.”

MOUTHAAN: Would be cool, right? But, no, I have not seen one.

MADDOW: So, I can`t apologize on behalf of Rick Santorum because I can`t
speak for him. As an American, I`m sorry this is happening in our politics
to the extent that it is insulting. I`m sorry.


MADDOW: That was 2012. Erik Mouthaan, the U.S. correspondent for the
Dutch RTL Evening News, having to bear the brunt of my personal apology, as
well as my detailed questioning about whether or not Rick Santorum was
saying something as insane as it sounded. Rick Santorum was saying
something as insane as is sounded.

That was 2012. We are now in a different era of a different kind of
expressed insanity in American presidential politics. Within the last 48
hours, “The New York Times” and the “Washington Post” have reported, among
other things, that the president has started to tell people that even
though he earlier admitted it was him on that tape, he now no longer
believes it was his voice on the “Access Hollywood” tape where he talked
about his inability to stop himself from sexually assaulting women he did
not know.

The president has also reportedly been telling people recently that he is
convinced that the Russia investigations are over. That the Robert Mueller
special counsel inquiry will end next month and he will be completely
exonerated. People close to the president have even suggested that
President Trump will go nuts, that he will blow a gasket if that
exoneration doesn`t happen by the end of next month because he`s so
convinced that it will.

The president has also reportedly started pushing the birther conspiracy
theory again about President Obama. He has reportedly been recently
raising the issue unprompted, including with Republican senators, telling
them that he believes President Obama really was secretly foreign. That he
wasn`t born in the United States at all. That he was never actually
president, that the whole Obama presidency was a conspiracy to conceal his
foreign origins.

And, you know, with the birther thing, given the other things the president
has been talking about, his behavior in public recently, it`s kind of hard
to know, like, where on the number line you put the birther thing now
between delusion, I`m about to be exonerated in the Russia thing, right?
Delusion and purposeful racial provocation.

Let me say something that sounds really racist that`s going to rile people
up and divide people along racial lines. Like the birther conspiracy
theory thing, where do you put that on the number line for him anymore?

But this news about him bringing back that birther story line, it comes on
the same week that the president really did stand before a portrait of
Andrew Jackson in the Oval Office, the author of the Indian Removal Act,
the architect of the Trail of Tears, and standing in front of that portrait
of Andrew Jackson, he tells an assembled group of Native American World War
II war heroes that he likes to call Senator Elizabeth Warren Pocahontas as
an insult.

I mean, that`s this week, too. Even for the president, it has been an
intense few days of delusion and racial provocation and insults. Leading
into today from his Twitter account, where this string of incidents from
the president now includes the president retweeting three videos from a
far-right anti-Muslim group in Britain that is called Britain First. It`s
an inheritor of the Britain National Party.

But Britain First is not well-known in the U.S. If they`re known here at
all, it`s in conjunction with the murder of a British member of parliament
named Jo Cox who was stabbed to death in the streets by a neo-Nazi who
screamed “Britain First” as he attacked her and killed her in cold blood
and her constituency because he said she was too pro-immigrant. That
happened a week before the Brexit vote last year in Britain.

The only other thing that Britain First is known for in his country is
having run an overtly racist, overtly anti-Muslim campaign for mayor of
London. They ran the leader of their party for mayor of London. He
received a whopping 1 percent of the vote.

He did distinguish himself, though, on the night of the London mayor
election when all the candidates were standing up on stage and the winner
of that election, London Mayor Sadiq Khan got up to give his remarks and
the guy from Britain First turned his back on the stage, turned his back
and showed his back to Sadiq Khan – the second guy from the left there.
He did that specifically because Sadiq Khan is a Muslim.

One of the Britain First videos that the president tweeted today was a
straight-up, unadulterated piece of al Qaeda propaganda. It was an al
Qaeda propaganda video that was made by the al Qaeda affiliated group in
Syria. This is a video that was not doctored or changed in any way from al
Qaeda propaganda. It was just re-labeled in English by Britain First and
then it was distributed today by the president of the United States.

The president of the United States not essentially but literally
distributing raw al Qaeda propaganda to his Twitter followers today.

Another one of the videos the president retweeted today was labeled with
this, “Muslim migrant beats up Dutch Boy.”

Now, this video does, in fact, show an incident that happened in the
Netherlands in May of this year, in a small town outside of Amsterdam. It
is not a video of a Muslim migrant beating up a Dutch boy. Neither of the
16-year-old boys in this video that was sent out by the president today,
neither of them is a migrant. Both of them are Dutch and Dutch born.

Now, one of them does have dark hair and one of them has blonde hair, but
that`s pretty much as far as you can get from this actual video towards the
president`s use of it today to apparently just blatantly try to incite fear
and hatred of Muslims with something he made up for the purpose of doing

The British prime minister felt compelled today to put out a statement in
response to the president`s online behavior. Theresa May said in very
simple terms, quote: It is wrong for the president to have done this.

But, you know, the Dutch embassy in the United States also felt compelled
to respond to this today. They sent out this, quote: Facts do matter. The
perpetrator of the violent act in this video was born and raised in the
Netherlands. He received and completed his sentence under Dutch law.

And thus recurs my personal nightmare of sitting at this desk in this seat
once again having to apologize to the Dutch, right? I never thought it
would be worse or weirder than having to apologize to the Dutch for the
behavior of one of our rando presidential candidates who you can`t quite
believe got that far.

But it`s like – it`s like a nightmare on top of food poisoning, on top of
stabbing yourself in the eye with a fork of having to make this kind of an
apology yet again. This time, not for the behavior of some guy who you
can`t believe is this far into the primaries, but this time you have to say
it for the sitting president of the United States.

Joining us once again, I`m sorry to say, is Erik Mouthaan, U.S.
correspondent for RTL Dutch TV.

Erik –


MADDOW: I feel like I now have a weird dynamic with you.

MOUTHAAN: Yes, a little bit, but you don`t have to apologize. We get
that, you know, you`re not the president and there is a multitude of
opinions in the United States, but the Dutch government did decide to push

MADDOW: And tell me about that decision. So, that was a – a decision
that was at least pushed out through or made by the embassy.


MADDOW: And what they`re saying is that this did happen in the


MADDOW: This is a really thing. Some people were describing this today as
a fake video.

MOUTHAAN: Sarah Huckabee Sanders said if it`s not a real video, it doesn`t
matter. Well, it is a real video. It`s just not what they said it was. I
watched the video. It`s horrible.

I don`t know if you saw it, there is this kid being beaten up and –

MADDOW: By another kid.

MOUTHAAN: By another kid. And they`re both minors. The police won`t tell
us a lot about what happened because they`re minors, so the prosecutor
doesn`t give out all the details, but they did look into it and said this
was a Dutch born assailant and local sources tell us he was definitely not
Muslim, he just had dark hair.

The district attorney`s office will not comment on that because they don`t
register the religion of people, because in the criminal system, it doesn`t
matter what your religion is. But as far as we know, he`s not Muslim, the
assailant. He got a penalty, community service and the matter seemed to be
closed. The video was uploaded to a Dutch Website and was taken down after
the victim said, please, take this down. I find it horrible to watch.

Now, it`s all over again. The whole world is watching and people getting
this whole new idea behind it.

MADDOW: So, the video was posted online. Obviously, part of the issue in
the video is somebody who is filming it, who`s egging on the perpetrator.


MADDOW: As I understand it from Dutch law enforcement perspective, both
the person egging it on, the person filming it and the person who is
beating up the other kid were prosecuted for this.

MOUTHAAN: Right, yes, the prosecutor told us today that just the guy who -
- the actual assailant was given community service. The other person was
looked to and talked to by police.


MOUTHAAN: Them all being minors may have had a part in the sort of lower
sentence that didn`t actually got to court or not sentenced to prison.

MADDOW: Now, this – as you said, this was taken down in the Netherlands
because the victim didn`t want, these were minors. The victim didn`t want
it circulated. It was taken down off the Dutch Website.

Somebody obviously saved it.


MADDOW: But for the president to use it this way, I guess I have to ask
just from your perspective as a Dutch reporter, your perspective covering
your own government reacting to the Trump administration. Is our country
seen differently now or is – are we seen as the same country who just has
a really different kind of leader?

MOUTHAAN: I think it`s a pendulum. People – Holland is kind of a liberal
country. They didn`t care much for George W. Bush and the Iraq war. They
loved Obama. They didn`t want here – if I told something negative about
the president, they didn`t want to hear it.

So, now, the pendulum has swung back. The added difficulty is that the
president just says things that are not true and that astonishes people
around the world and also in the Netherlands.

In this case, it`s just the sad story. This guy got beat up. He`s a
minor. This was horrible for him. And now, the whole world is watching it
and there`s this sort of added layer of like fake news on top of it.

MADDOW: Erik Mouthaan, U.S. correspondent for RTL Dutch TV – the next
time I`m having you on this show, I swear to God, it`s going to be for
something awesome America has done to Holland.

Thank you for being here.

MOUTHAAN: Thank you so much.

MADDOW: Nice to see you.

All right. Much more ahead tonight. Stay with us.


MADDOW: “A Prairie Home Companion” is a variety show that Public Radio
listeners either love or hate. I think most people love it. It`s been on
the air since 1974, hosted by the same man for almost the entire time. The
show`s very creative creator Garrison Keillor.

Garrison Keillor actually left the program last year but Minnesota Public
Radio has kept him around to produce another show that`s carried across the
country called “The Writers Almanac”.

Today, though, Minnesota Public Radio severed all ties with Garrison
Keillor and his production company after a person who worked with him
accused him of inappropriate behavior. Minnesota Public Radio has retained
an outside law firm for investigate the allegations against Garrison

In the meantime, Mr. Keillor has put out a lengthy statement in which he
says, in part, quote: I have been fired over a story that I think is more
interesting and more complicated than the version MPR heard. Most stories

So, that happened today.

Also, this happened: CNN announced that it had fired a senior producer over
claims of inappropriate behavior. Quote, a comprehensive investigation was
conducted as soon as this matter was brought to our attention. The
behavior attributed to the senior producer does not align with the
standards and values of CNN, and he is no longer with the company.

Like I said, it`s been a heck of a day. But before any of those stories
unfolded today, the biggest news yet in sexual harassment in the news media
broke first thing on NBC`s “The Today Show”.


ANNOUNCER: From NBC News, this is “Today”, live from Studio 1A in
Rockefeller Plaza.

SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: And good morning, everybody. Welcome
to “Today.” And Hoda`s here with me this morning because this is a sad
morning here at “Today” and at NBC News.

Just moments ago, NBC News chairman Andy Lack sent the following note to
our organization.

Dear colleagues, on Monday night, we received a detailed complaint from a
colleague about inappropriate sexual behavior in the workplace by Matt
Lauer. It represented, after serious review, a clear violation of our
company`s standards. As a result, we have decided to terminate his

While it is the first complaint about his behavior in the over 20 years he
has been at NBC News, we were also presented with reason to believe this
may not have been an isolated incident.


MADDOW: NBC News terminated Matt Lauer overnight after a complaint was
filed with NBC News human resources alleging inappropriate sexual behavior
in the workplace.

Now, we don`t know much about that specific allegations, other than the
fact that the alleged behavior began during the Olympics coverage in Sochi
in 2014, and it reportedly continued after that.

Now, NBC News tells us tonight that they found that allegation that they
were confronted with on Monday night, they say they found that credible.
They confronted Matt Lauer with the allegation and he did not deny it, and
that`s what led to the process of him being fired.

NBC also tells us that Matt Lauer was fired for cause, which implies that
he will not be paid out for the rest of his contract, but NBC News is not
confirming that implication explicitly one way or another.

NBC News is obviously our parent company here. So, we`re reporting on this
story taking place in our own proverbial house as best as we`ve been able
to report this out today. As far as I can personally tell today, I think
these are the open questions that are important tonight. The open
questions we should expect to get answers to at some point.

The first one obviously is, will there be more people who come forward with
accusations about Matt Lauer? Already over the course of today, that has
started to happen.

After the firing was announced, “Variety” published accounts from three
women separate and apart from the complaint that was made to NBC News on
Monday night. According to “Variety,” quote, Matt Lauer once gave a
colleague a sex toy as a present. It included an explicit note about how
he wanted to use it on her, which left her mortified.

On another day, he summoned a different female employee to his office and
showing her his – after the employee declined to do anything, visibly
shaken, he reprimanded her for not engaging in a sexual act.

So, that report came out from “Variety.” Then, shortly thereafter, the
“New York Times” reported tonight that at least two more women have come
forward to NBC human resources today since Matt Lauer`s firing was
announced this morning.

Quote: One complaint came from a former employee who said Mr. Lauer had
summoned her to his office in 2001, locked the door and had sex with her.
She told “The Times” she passed out and had to be taken to a nurse. She
said she felt helpless because she didn`t want to lose her job and that she
didn`t report the encounter at the time because she felt ashamed.

In 2001, the woman said Mr. Lauer, who`s married, asked her to his office
to discuss the story during the workday. When she sat down, she said he
locked the door, which he could do by pressing a button while sitting at
his desk.

People who worked at NBC said the button was a regular security measure
installed for high-profile employees. The woman said Mr. Lauer asked her
to unbutton her blouse, she did. The anchor then stepped out from behind
his desk, pulled down his pants, bent her over a chair and had intercourse
with her. And then this is the pass out point, sorry I read this twice.

Quote, at some point, she said she passed out with her pants pull halfway
down. She woke up on the floor of his office and Mr. Lauer had his
assistant take her to a nurse. The woman told “The Times” that Mr. Lauer
never made at an advance towards her again and never mentioned what
occurred in his office. She did not report the episode to NBC at the time
because she believed she should have done more to stop him.

She left the network about a year later. On Wednesday, the episode in Mr.
Lauer`s office was reported to NBC News after the woman told her then
supervisor who still works at the network. The woman said an NBC human
resources representative has since contacted her.

So, we get the news about the firing. The firing happens overnight. We
get the news about the firing this morning and all of these detailed
allegations unfold over the course of today. And those allegations have
been in some cases reported to NBC News human resources. And in several
cases, they`ve been reported out into detail in “Variety” and “The New York

So, that`s one of the open questions here. Will more accusers come

Beyond that, though, now that there are multiple allegations involving
multiple NBC employees over multiple years, that, of course, raises the
question of whether NBC had knowledge of allegations about Matt Lauer in
the past? And if so, how were those allegations handled?

Today, “Variety” made a nonspecific claim that several women, quote,
complained to executives at the network about Lauer`s behavior which fell
on deaf ears.

Now, NBC News today took issue with that. They responded to that by saying
prior to Monday night this week, quote, we can say unequivocally that prior
to Monday night, current NBC News management was never made aware of any
complaints about Matt Lauer`s conduct.

So, NBC News tells us they are and have been looking into whether any
current or former NBC News executives have received any complaints about
Matt Lauer`s behavior before what was brought to the network on Monday
night. So far, they tell us they have not found evidence of that.

They also say as far as they know, there are no instances of NBC News
paying settlements related to Matt Lauer`s past behavior. NBC News also
tells us the human resources department will continue to field any further
allegations, but they tell us it`s too early in the process to say whether
NBC will handle the investigation internally or whether they may eventually
retain some third party to come in to try to figure out what happened here.
Over all these years, over the course of all of these accusations and
whether or not NBC should have known before they say they did.

So, there remain some important open questions in the hours after Matt
Lauer`s termination from NBC News. I should also tell you that NBC News
has reached out to Matt Lauer for comment, but he has not responded.

Joining us now is NBC News correspondent Stephanie Gosk, who has the
unusual task –


MADDOW: To say the least.

GOSK: Yes.

MADDOW: Of reporting out these matters for this news organization, for
NBC News.

What`s today been like?

GOSK: Incredibly strange. It starts with a gut punch and it has been very

You know, Rachel, typically if there is a story we are this close to as
reporters, you remove yourself from that story and say, I`m too close,
guys, I can`t do it.

Obviously we can`t do that with this story. We need to report it. And for
me, the important thing has been over the course of the day, to make sure I
report it in the same way that I report let`s say the CBS story about
Charlie Rose that I reported on last week.

It gets difficult because I`m in this building and although some of the
conversations I have had in this building have been on the record, things
that are being shared publicly, very obviously there are also other
conversations among – that I overhear amongst colleagues, things that are
being said privately to each other that are things that typically a
reporter might glob on to and want to report. I have to draw those lines
just by the very nature of the fact that I`m in this newsroom all day long.

For instance, there was a meeting held by the president of the news
organization, Noah Oppenheim, today to talk about all of this. It`s not a
public meeting. It was not an on the record meeting. I chose not to
attend it.

MADDOW: Because it wasn`t on the record?

GOSK: Because as I report the story, this is not something that reporters
were being invited into, per se. I wasn`t told not to attend. I made the
decision not to attend.

But that also meant some of my colleagues decided to walk up to my desk and
say, oh, you weren`t there, x, y and z happened. So, I had to draw a line

MADDOW: Right.

They had off the record information, they leaked with you, gave it to you
and allowed you to put it on the record as a source.

GOSK: Essentially, yes. But that`s say very difficult line to draw. It
is difficult to report this story as I would report any other.


GOSK: So it has been tricky.

MADDOW: So, let`s – in terms of the way this has unfolded today. NBC
says they didn`t know anything before Monday night. They say – and
“Variety” made that vague allegation today, which is a very serious one.
“Variety” said that other accusers had reported concerns about Lauer to NBC
executives in the past and they`d fallen on deaf ears.

NBC is taking issue with that and saying as far as they know before Monday
night, no NBC executive ever had fielded –

GOSK: Current NBC News executive.

MADDOW: Current and –

GOSK: So that leaves open the question of previous NBC News executives who
have not spoken on the record to us about whether or not they`ve received -


GOSK: – any past complaints. So that issue is out there.

There has been, and this happens in newsrooms, rumors of “Variety” and “The
New York Times” working on articles. There had been talk that there was
something coming out.

In terms of NBC saying they didn`t know anything before Monday night, they
didn`t know of this accuser until Monday, and her lawyer says the same,
that 6:00, they sat down with HR and the legal department at NBC and they
laid out her story over a period of hours. And what`s remarkable in this
timeline, Rachel, is that you consider the fact that it was 6:00 on Monday
night, by Tuesday night, roughly 24 hours, Matt Lauer was fired. The most
high-profile face in his company, his contributions, you don`t even have to
tick them off to know how important they are to our news division.


GOSK: Twenty-four hours was how long it took. I think that is a testament
in part, and NBC says this, to the seriousness of what she is alleging,
together what –

MADDOW: And how seriously and credible NBC found those allegations when
they were brought to them on Monday.

GOSK: Yes, as Andy Lack`s statement also said, the idea that there might
be other allegations as well that are out there, that that combined
together. I also think it is important to make note obviously of this
context that we are living in right now. What the last few weeks have
since the Harvey Weinstein story broke, and the reaction that this country
has had to subsequent stories.

That climate has to have played a role in this.

MADDOW: Oh, absolutely. Well, now that accusers are coming forward to
other news organizations, can you confirm the news that we had today that
more accusers came forward to NBC after the firing was announced today?

GOSK: Yes, two.

MADDOW: Two NBC, so two more people came forward to NBC specifically –

GOSK: Yes.

MADDOW: – in addition to going to other news organizations?

GOSK: Yes, and we don`t know those details that you outlined in “The New
York Times,” whether those accusers are the ones that NBC has confirmed to
us. Our understanding from NBC is that there are two new accusers today
since those accusations.

MADDOW: OK. That`s going to end up being the important thing as a news
organization and as a corporation going forward, the question of whether or
not, if with lots of accusers over lots of years involving a very powerful
person in the company, will it turn out to be true that no executives knew?
That the company wasn`t – really wasn`t legitimately aware of these things
and they terminated him as soon as they knew. That`s what –

GOSK: I would also say as well, the details of the allegations and what
these women went through, and I know they don`t want to come out publicly
and name themselves, but as we as a society try to lock at these issues and
figure out where we`re going to draw the lines and what`s appropriate and
what`s inappropriate, this is a murky territory. The details of what
happened to them are extremely important to be able to figure that out
going forward.

MADDOW: Yes. And they own that information and they get to do with it
what they want.

GOSK: Of course.

MADDOW: Yes. Stephanie, thank you.

GOSK: You`re welcome. Thanks for having me on.

MADDOW: Good luck. I don`t envy the job that you`ve got at NBC. But
thank you for helping us understand it.

GOSK: Thanks.

MADDOW: All right. We will be right back. Stay with us.


MADDOW: “The New York Times” concerning White House presidential adviser
and son-in-law Jared Kushner. We first learned in March about a meeting
during the presidential transition between Mike Flynn, Jared Kushner and
the Russian ambassador, Sergey Kislyak.

Now, the White House played down the significance of that meeting when it
was first reported. But then, a couple of months later, in May, “The
Washington Post” reported that that meeting was about something quite
serious. It was about, quote, setting up a secret and secure
communications channel between Trump`s transition team and the Kremlin.

Who needs a secret hotline to the Kremlin and for what?

Well, now, tonight, we learned from “The New York Times” that Jared Kushner
has met with the special counsel, has met with special counsel Robert
Mueller`s team of investigators. He met with them earlier this month to
answer questions about that meeting during the transition.

Now, CNN was first to report tonight that Kushner had met with Mueller`s
team earlier this month but CNN sources actually told a somewhat different
story about what Mueller asked him about. CNN sources told them that
Kushner did meet with Mueller`s team but he was asked to come in and speak
with them specifically about Mike Flynn.

A CNN source said the conversation lasted less than 90 minutes and nature
of the conversation was principally to make sure Kushner doesn`t have
information that exonerates Mike Flynn.

So, we`re getting news from both “The Times” and CNN that Kushner spoke
with Mueller. We`re getting two different stories about what Mueller
talked to Kushner about.

Now, I don`t mean to be weird about this, but we reported last week that
Donald Trump will not be contributing any money to Mike Flynn`s legal
defense fund. Ever since around that time, it sort of feels like a lot of
people, a lot of people who appeared to have connections to White House
figures are talking anonymously to reporters about how terrible Mike Flynn
is and how much trouble he`s in.

A lot of this stuff about how bad things are for Mike Flynn right now seems
to be sourced to people who are connected to the White House. I don`t know
what that means exactly. But that`s what I`m reading between the lines
right now.

Stay with us.


MADDOW: I have a correction to make. Last night on this show, we went
through the list of all the Russians and Russia-connected people who we now
know were in contact with Trump campaign and the Trump transition. We came
up with 19 different Russians.

But our handy chart, look, six, and then six, and then six. It only had 18
people on it. It turns out we forgot to include on our pictorial tableau
of Russians, a guy named Ike Kaveladze. He`s the Russian money laundering
suspect who is the eighth man in the infamous Trump Tower meeting last
summer which involved Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort and Donald Jr.

So, for the record, we have on our list of people connected to the Russian
government who were in contact with the Trump team. Ahem, Russian
ambassador, Russian banker, Russian ex-con, Russian real estate guy,
Russian military intelligence guy, Russian oligarch, another Russian
banker, Russian lawyer, Russian lobbyist, Russian billionaire, Russian
billionaire son, Russian academic, Russian deputy prime minister, Russian
oil executives, Kremlin connected academic, Russian foreign ministry guy,
Russian president`s fake niece, new guy we learned about yesterday who is
the head of a Russian sovereign wealth fund.

And Ike Kaveladze, Russian money laundering poster child. He goes on our
chart there next to the Russian lawyer and the Russian lobbyist. He, too,
a little box around him there – he, too, was at that Trump Tower meeting.

So, that`s my correction. It`s not 18, it`s 19. It`s quite a roster.

And there could, of course, be more. More than a year after the election,
more like a year and a half since the FBI started their counterintelligence
investigation into links between the Trump campaign and Russia, we are
still adding to the list of Russian figures who successfully made contact
and got themselves involved at one level or another with the Trump campaign
and the Trump transition.

Last night, thanks to reporting by “The Intercept,” we told you about the
latest Russian name added to that list, the CEO of the Russian`s government
multibillion dollar investment fund. He flew to the Seychelles Islands
just before the Trump inauguration to meet Erik Prince, major Trump donor,
founder of the controversial security firm, Blackwater, and brother of
Trump`s education secretary Betsy DeVos.

“Washington Post” reported earlier this year that they were in the
Seychelles to discuss setting up a backchannel communication between the
Trump team and the Putin team. Now, Erik Prince denies that that meeting
had anything to do with Donald Trump, but this Russian government
investment fund that he admits he might have crossed paths with in the
Seychelles, they`re under sanctions by the United States. And that limits
the kind of business that Americans can do with that fund.

So, if Erik Prince was not meeting with its CEO about Donald Trump and
they`re a sanctioned firm, what exactly were they meeting about? Well, we
reported on that last night. Today, we heard from the Russian sovereign
wealth fund.

It`s a fund called the Russian Direct Investment Fund. They did not like
the way that we described American sanctions against them. They did not
like I suggested it might be illegal to do – for Erik Prince to do
business with them as a sanctioned entity.

There are particular careful ways in which an American might be able to
invest in Russia alongside this sanctioned fund. Although doing so while
complying with sanctions is admittedly quite tricky. So, banks and funds
for the most part don`t touch investments with this kind of a sanctioned

But, you know, maybe Erik Prince would. So, therefore, I`m happy to make
that clarification.

They are a sanctioned entity by the U.S. government, but maybe you might be
able to figure out how to do business in Russia alongside them without
violating sanctions. Maybe.

But it doesn`t make that meeting with Erik Prince any less weird, because
the CEO of that sanctioned fund is the 19th Russian government connected
person to have successfully made contact with the Trump camp during the
campaign and the transition – the 19th that we know of thus far.

There are 19 people on this list. As of this week, it is still growing.
I`m assuming we`re going to have to get a bigger wall.


MADDOW: – Carmen Yulin Cruz, the mayor of San Juan, Puerto Rico. It has
not always been easy to get an accurate picture of the conditions on the
ground for the nearly 3.5 million Americans living there. It was useful to
get a reality check from Mayor Cruz. She did not candy coat it.

People still do not have clean water and people do not still have water in
their homes. Some hospitals are still using generators for power. So,
useful details in terms of figuring it out.

But one of the starkest measures of what`s gone wrong is the death toll.
Until a few hours ago, the official death toll from the storm was 55. A
few hours ago, it went up by three to 58 officially.

But tonight, is reporting the actual death toll may be more like 20
times that, nearly 1,100 people.

Researchers went back seven years to compare the average numbers of death
in September and October to the September and October after Hurricane
Maria. In September, there were more than 500 excess deaths. In October,
another 567 excess deaths.

The official death toll, again, inched up by three today, but there is an
increasingly large amount of evidence piling up that the official death
toll may be many, many, many times what the government is admitting to.

Watch this space.


MADDOW: Hey, looky-loo, where does the time go?

That does it for us tonight. We will see you again tomorrow.


Good evening, Lawrence.


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