The Rachel Maddow Show, Transcript 12/9/2015

Dan Rather, Vicki Cowart

Date: December 9, 2015
Guest: Dan Rather, Vicki Cowart

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC: That is “ALL IN” for this evening.


Good evening, Rachel.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Modernity is individualism and oil. Wow.
I want to make a child`s coloring book of that.


MADDOW: That`s amazing interview. Thank you, my friend. Amazing
interview. Thank you.

And thanks to you at home as well for joining us this hour.

Boy, is there a lot going on in the news right now.

We got a big show tonight. One of the stories we`re covering this
hour is out of Colorado. Five days before the San Bernardino mass shooting
there, of course, was another mass shooting. The Friday after Thanksgiving
at the Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

Police to this day have still said nothing about the motive for that
shooter who killed three people, including a police officer – and wounded
nine other people at that Planned Parenthood. But today, the shooter had
his first day in court and while he was in court, he screamed out his
motive, repeatedly in that courtroom on tape.

So, we`ve got that story ahead tonight, including a live response
tonight from the head of that Planned Parenthood. She`ll be joining us
here live in the second half of the show.

Also, we`ve got Dan Rather here in person tonight for the interview.

And, my thesis about Trump may be trying to get himself kicked out of
the Republican Party just got a bunch more support from Mr. Trump himself,
including in the past hour. And that tape is coming up.

So – as I say, big show tonight. I am really looking forward to
this hour.

But we start – we start with new news hot off the presses about how
the Republican Party is reacting, how they are handling their presidential
front-runner crossing a pretty major Rubicon this week with his proposal to
ban all Muslims from entering the United States. And I know it sounds like
I am oversimplifying when I put it that way but that`s really what he has
called for. This was the statement he put out at 4:15 on Monday afternoon,
calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United

If I make it sound simple, that`s because it`s simple.

That statement was put out by the Donald Trump campaign at 4:15 p.m.
on Monday. Mr. Trump spent all day yesterday standing up for that proposal
and reiterating that proposal. The only clarification he has issued since
he put out that statement is that Muslims he says who are U.S. citizens
should be allowed in this country. Oh, thank you. But that`s it.

No tourists, no visitors, no students, no immigrants, for any short-
term or long-term reason, presumably no diplomats, no visiting foreign
heads of state. If you are a Muslim, you are not allowed in.

This proposal from Mr. Trump has generated the latest round of
mainstream hand wringing about how surely Donald Trump has gone too far
this time. Surely now, he`s made himself poisonous in his months` long
reign at the top of the Republican polls will surely now come to an end.

That may be the mainstream perspective on this proposal by the
Republican presidential front-runner. But it is not the perspective of
Republican voters who will ultimately choose that party`s nominee for
president. Tonight, we have two new polls that are very different polls
but they show how Donald Trump`s remarks about banning all Muslims from the
United States, how those remarks are being received by Republican primary

The first poll is from Bloomberg and what they did is admittedly a
slightly unusual way to do a poll. They did an online snap poll which
basically means they just took their poll over the course of one single day
and it asks likely Republican voters one simple question.

Quote, “This week, Donald Trump called for a temporary ban on all
Muslims who are citizens of foreign countries from entering the United
States. Do you favor or oppose this proposal?” Among likely Republican
primary voters, the answer is – they favor this proposal by a huge amount.
Nearly two-thirds of Republican likely primary voters say they agree with
Donald Trump that all Muslims should be banned from the United States, 65
percent support among Republican voters.

Now again, the methodology on this polling is not ideal, it is an
online poll taken only over the course of one day. And as a general
matter, no matter what you are polling on, it is always better to poll over
a longer period of time and not do it on just one day. But this was a one-
day poll.

If you are very interested in the answer to this question, though,
among Republicans, I think a lot of people are interested in this, I should
tell you also that the NBC/”Wall Street Journal” poll is due out tomorrow
and we are expecting an answer from that poll on this same question and
that`s not going to be just a one-day snap poll. That will be a multiple
day poll that includes people being called on their phones, not just being
polled online.

So, when that poll comes out tomorrow afternoon sometime, 5:30, 6:00
Eastern Time, we should expect to get another look at that number from a
slightly broader angle. It will be fascinating to see if this holds up
because if this is real, if 65 percent of Republican voters in the United
States think it is a great idea to ban all Muslims from this country? Then
we live in a different country than I thought we did. I said though that
we got two polls on this subject tonight and the second one I think is even
more remarkable than the one I just showed you.

The second one is a FOX News poll. It was just released tonight out
of South Carolina. Bottom line of this South Carolina Republican poll from
FOX News, bottom line is pretty amazing.

It`s not actually the most important thing here. Bottom line of the
poll is that Donald Trump is absolutely killing it in South Carolina. He`s
ahead by 20 points in that state. He`s at 35 percent of the vote. His
nearest rival is 20 points behind him, Ben Carson at 15 percent.

For reference here, no person who`s last name if Bush has ever lost a
Republican presidential primary in the state of South Carolina. But right
now, Jeb Bush is only at 5 percent in that state. His name is supposed to
make him a shoo-in in South Carolina. But he`s right now 30 points behind
the leader. And that`s the bottom line result which itself is amazing.

Here is the more amazing result from this new poll. FOX News
hopefully spells it out in terms of talking about their methodology.
Here`s how they explained it. This poll is being released tonight,
Wednesday night, but in terms of whether they collected this data from
voters, the poll was conducted Saturday through Tuesday. Now think about
that – those dates for a second. Because remember that Donald Trump
announced he wanted to ban all Muslims from the United States on Monday
afternoon. So, that means that proposal comes out Monday afternoon.

In terms of this poll, that means Monday night polling and Tuesday
and Tuesday night polling, that polling is going to reflect voters knowing
that Donald Trump has just proposed that policy. The earlier polling, the
polling that happened Saturday and Sunday, that`s before he said it, so
that doesn`t reflect the impact of that proposal.

So, this FOX News/South Carolina poll ends up being really
interesting, basically controlled experiment in South Carolina as to what
Republican voters in that state think about Donald Trump wanting to ban
Muslims from United States.

And that controlled experiment gives us this result in FOX`s words,
quote, “It looks like the comments help him in South Carolina.” Support
for Mr. Trump increased eight points after his statement.

So the first two nights in South Carolina, he was at 30 percent. The
last two nights of polling in South Carolina after he said ban all Muslims
from this country, he wasn`t at 30 percent anymore. He popped up to 38

So, Republican voters love it, apparently. The mainstream is
recoiling in disgust and dismay. But Republican primary voters, they are a
different breed of cat. They like it, a lot.

When the Republican presidential field this year first started taking
shape, really looked like there was a lot of depth to their field this
year. I mean, yes, there were this handful of political amateurs, Donald
Trump and Carly Fiorina and Ben Carson. But then out of the 17 people who
were declared presidential candidates on the Republican side, you know,
honestly a majority of them had been governors, eight of the 17 had been
governors. Five of them had been or currently are senators.

And of the governors who are running, obviously Jeb Bush has the
family dynasty on his side, so he`s I guess the dynastic favorite in that
sense, but Scott Walker of Wisconsin was really seen for a very long time
as the governor who have the best prospects of going all the way. Famously
in late April, David Koch of the Koch brothers told big money Republican
donors at the a fund-raising event in New York City, quote, “When the
primaries are over and Scott Walker gets the nomination,” leading to a big
roar of approval and applause from that big money crowd in New York City.

Scott Walker was the guy who was going to win. Scott Walker then
became one of the very first people to drop out of the race. Scott Walker
only ran for president for 70 days, then he dropped out on September 21st.

And when he dropped out, that was obviously a sad occasion for the
Wisconsin governor. But he did say in his quitting announcement, he did
say one very forward-looking thing. It was kind of his leadership moment
embedded in his “I`m quitting” announcement.


GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R), WISCONSIN: Today, I believe that I am being
called to lead by helping to clear the field in this race so that a
positive conservative message can rise to the top of the field. With this
in mind, I will suspend my campaign immediately. I encourage other
Republican presidential candidates to consider doing the same so that the
voters can focus on limited number of candidates who can offer a positive
conservative alternative to the current front-runner.


MADDOW: So the voters can focus on a limited number of candidates.

When Scott Walker quit the race on September 21st, he was obviously
quitting because he thought he couldn`t win, but he was also quitting, in
his own words, to try to encourage other candidates to quit as well so the
field would shrink, so Donald Trump would have less of a chance of winning.

I mean, this has long been the mainstream theory of the case, right?
That all the normal candidates, all the mainstream candidates, all the
senators and governors and stuff, they`re dividing support amongst
themselves. They`re dividing all of the support of Republican voters who
want a normal candidate, and that gives nobody a clear shot at toppling the
non-normal candidates, Donald Trump.

As long as there are still a zillion Republicans running, no one will
beat him. That`s in the mainstream theory.

Since Scott Walker made that dramatic decision to get out of race,
and he made that dramatic call to action on September 21st that he and
other candidates should get out of the race for the good of the party and
the good of the country, to make sure Donald Trump didn`t get the
nomination, since that call, precisely one of this fellow candidates has
heeded that call, Bobby Jindal, that`s it, that`s the only who`s dropped
out since.

For the record, Bobby Jindal, he too said that other candidates
should drop out on the occasion of him quitting. So the field could be
narrowed to better focus on beating Donald Trump. Apparently nobody`s
listening to Bobby Jindal on this score either because nobody`s quit since

Well, today, Scott Walker in Wisconsin reiterated that call. He told
a Wisconsin TV station today that, quote, “If you have a small field, more
people will focus toward the majority opinion.” He told WIS-TV, quote, “I
hope others do what I did,” which is suspend their campaigns.

Frankly, Donald Trump is so far ahead of the rest of the field I
don`t know if a smaller number of opponents for him really would result in
his numbers coming down all that much. I don`t know if that would result
in him not getting the nomination. But nobody listened to Scott Walker
about it, the first time. We`ll see if anybody listens to him about it the
second time. Nobody listen to Bobby Jindal about it in the meantime.

I mean, the best funded mainstream hope of beating Mr. Trump has
always been Jeb Bush, just because his super PAC raised more than $100
million on Jeb`s behalf in the first half of this year. But really does
not look like he`s going to do it.

Today, “The Washington Post” reports of that $100 million war chest,
Jeb Bush has already spent half of it. His campaign has already spent
nearly $50 million and for what? All that money has bought him nothing.
He`s down to 4 percent in the latest national poll and he`s been stuck at
roughly that level or even worse for weeks now, $50 million.

Some people in mainstream Republican politics talk about Marco Rubio
as another potentially, quote/unquote, “mainstream” savior for the party.
Maybe he`s the one who could potentially beat Donald Trump.

Whatever Marco Rubio has going for him in terms of mainstream media
support and billionaire hedge fund donors funding him, he doesn`t seem to
be putting it to work on his actual campaign. He doesn`t seem to be
putting his campaign to work at actually trying to win in the crucial early
states of Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina.

It was late October when the state newspaper in South Carolina was
reporting, with worry, that Marco Rubio`s campaign had yet to even open an
office in that state. Last week, “The Boston Globe” reported that Senator
Rubio also had almost no campaign effort evident on the ground in the state
of New Hampshire.

Today, “The National Review”, that conservative magazine, quotes
multiple Iowa Republican activists saying that Marco Rubio isn`t really
campaigning in Iowa either. Quote, “Rubio`s weak ground game angers Iowa
Republicans.” The state`s caucus-goers are interested in Rubio but his
infrequent appearances and his paltry field operations leave lingering
doubts as to whether he is interested in them.

If there is anyone to beat Mr. Trump for the Republican nomination,
particularly now that his “ban all Muslims” plan has caused everyone to
freak out in the Republican establishment if not among Republican voters,
if there is anyone the polls right now make it look like the only other
candidate who has a chance of clipping Donald Trump`s wings might be Ted

Here`s the thing though, and I`m not sure this is being widely
appreciated yet. But if that`s the case, that shouldn`t necessarily be
comfort for the Republican establishment, because picking somebody like Ted
Cruz instead of Donald Trump is not what you`d call a clean repudiation of
Donald Trump`s proposal to ban Muslims in the United States.


REPORTER: Is that damaging for you this time around? Does it seem
pretty outrageous or do you think it could be an asset for you in not
stepping up?

certainly in the media there`s been no shortage of criticism for Donald
Trump. And I do not believe the world needs my voice added to that chorus
of critics. And, listen, I commend Donald Trump for standing up and
focusing America`s attention on the need to secure our borders.

REPORTER: Senator, would you still pledge to support Donald Trump if
he was an independent?

CRUZ: I will absolutely support the Republican nominee.


MADDOW: If the Republican Party is looking for somebody else to
nominate, to make a clean break with Trumpism, to show that the Republican
Party rejects Donald Trump and his ideas, Ted Cruz does not exactly embody
that clean break.

Frankly, the rest of the Republican Party doesn`t either. The
reaction to Mr. Trump`s proposal is generally described as widespread
condemnation, even from those in his own party. And that sounds great, but
that`s note really what has been happening when people in the conservative
movement, in conservative media, in Republican elected officialdom and
among his fellow candidates, it`s not what has been happening when people
have been asked what they think.


REPORTER: Given what you`ve said to start off this news conference,
would you still be supporting Donald Trump if he were your party`s nominee
for president?

certainly going to support the Republican nominee for president. I think
that wouldn`t surprise anyone.

REPORTER: In your role as speaker, you presided with the first
convention, if Trump was the nominee –

REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I`m going to support
whoever Republican nominee is.

STEPHEN K. BANNON, BREITBART NEWS: Real briefly, do you support what
Trump said last night about banning all Muslims at least temporarily until
we get sorted out what we got and what we don`t? Yes or no?

we have to look at our – I proposed actual concrete things in an
immigration law that would have not the effect of banning all Muslims but
on a lot of them. We can do it in a more practical way than the way Trump
is suggesting.

JACK HEATH, NEW HAMPSHIRE TODAY: Go and get your reaction, Donald
Trump doubling down, if you will, post San Bernardino in terms of
California, calling for a moratorium on Muslims entering the U.S.

mistake to base immigration or moratoriums based on religion. But I`ve
called for something similar which is a moratorium based on high risk.
I`ve actually introduced legislation and got a vote on it. I had a vote on
it just last week which is kind of interesting, all the hoopla, because
people don`t seem to understand that a similar concept is already been
voted on.

REPORTER: Can we start with Donald Trump saying that Muslims should
not be allowed to enter this country? What`s your reaction to that?

NEWT GINGRICH (R), FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: Well, my reaction is that
you have Trump on one extreme and Obama on the other.

REPORTER: I find it kind of fascinating that the first thing out of
your mouth when we asked about Trump wasn`t about how horrible what he said
was. Is he a huge threat to the Republican Party?


REPORTER: Why not?

GINGRICH: Well, why would you think he`s a threat to the Republican
Party? First of all, he articulates with millions of people what they

RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO HOST: Now folks, the conventional wisdom is
that Trump is scum, that Trump is a reprobate, that Trump is dangerous,
that Trump is obscene, Trump`s insane, Trump`s a lunatic, Trump`s
dangerous, Trump`s got to go. Why join that phrase? Why join that crowd?

MARK LEVIN, RADIO HOST: In fact, when you look at Supreme Court
precedent, as I have now, it is quite likely that Trump`s idea is totally
constitutional. What the Republicans should have said, not that Trump is
unhinged or he`s outrageous or just piling on, piling on, piling on. What
these career politicians should have said is, it`s time to have a national
discussion about a term that Obama won`t even use – radical Islam.

LAURA INGRAHAM, RADIO HOST: I think the overreaction to Trump`s
pause on immigration tells you more about the critics than it does about


MADDOW: So, we`re in new territory, right? Before now, no leading
presidential candidate from 1 of the 2 major political parties had ever
proposed something as extreme as banning entry into the United States on
the basis of religion. It`s kind of awkward because of the whole like
pilgrims thing, you know?

But the common wisdom about what the response to this radical
proposal is already wrong in two separate aspects. First of all, let`s be
clear: Donald Trump is not being condemned in all parties, by all of his
Republican rivals for having made this proposal. That would be kind of
awesome if that was happening. That is not what is happening.

People on the Republican side are still saying they`ll support him.
His rival Republican presidential candidates are not roundly denouncing him
for making this proposal. Not all of them. Some of them are hopping on
board and describing how their proposals are just like what Donald Trump
has said. Theirs are just more practical or more likely to get enacted,
but they want basically the same thing.

So, that`s one level at which this common wisdom is wrong. The
Republican Party establishment and his fellow candidates and the
conservative media, they are not against him on this.

The other part of the common wisdom on this that`s wrong is what the
reaction was going to be to this among Republican voters. We are going to
have more data tomorrow in that NBC News/”Wall Street Journal” poll comes
in and we will have the most important data of all in February 1st when
Iowa voters go to the caucuses and actually cast votes for the first time
in this nominating process.

But right now, there is, tonight, real initial data on the response
to Republican voters to Donald Trump, making the proposal this far beyond
what is ever coming before in modern American politics. And so far, it`s
clear – Republican voters love what he is offering. They are buying what
he is selling.

He wants to ban all Muslims from coming in to the United States.
That makes them like him more than ever.

And the person who has a long enough view on these things to
understand what might be going on here, the person who I most want to ask
about this phenomenon is Dan Rather and he`s here next in the studio.

Stay with us.


MADDOW: Today, the man who shot 12 people at a Planned Parenthood
clinic in Colorado the day after Thanksgiving, today, the man got his day
in court. And he screamed out in court why he did it. We`re going to have
that and a response from the head of Planned Parenthood in that region
straight ahead tonight.

Plus, the great Dan Rather joins us live in studio next.

Stay with us.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you consider running as a third party

first of all, I don`t want to do that. I`m leading in the poll not a
little bit, like by 20, 21 points. The poll just came out. I`m leading in
Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Nevada, Texas. I`m leading in Florida
against two people, one was a governor, one was a senator.

I`m leading every single poll. And nationwide, I`m leading in every
one of them. So, obviously, I`m very happy where I am.

The people of Republican Party has been – the people have been
phenomenal. The party, it`ll let you know about that. If I don`t get
treated fairly, I would certainly consider that.

BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS: So, if they deny nomination to you which is
very, very possible, are you going to run on a third party ticket, thereby
handing the election to Hillary Clinton?

TRUMP: I think that I will get the delegates. I`m winning in Iowa
big. I`m winning in South Carolina. I`m winning in New Hampshire big.

O`REILLY: If you don`t, if you don`t.

TRUMP: OK, if I`m treated fairly, I would never do it. If I`m not
treated fairly, I might very well do it.


MADDOW: I might very well do it.

Mr. Trump leading the door wide open for a potential third party
presidential run. That`s on tonight on FOX News and this morning on ABC.

If he is not treated fairly – the Republican Party has not exactly
fallen all over itself condemning Mr. Trump after his call this week for
all Muslims to be banned from the United States. But Mr. Trump is
apparently taking measure of that reaction and warning that if it is not to
his liking and he finds it unfair, he will leave. He will leave the
Republican Party and run for president instead as an independent which
would of course all but guarantee that not only he, but whoever gets the
Republican nomination would be relieved of any threat that they might ever
one day be expected to occupy the White House.

Joining us now for the interview is Dan Rather, former “CBS Evening
News” anchor, now the president of News and Guts Media.

Mr. Rather, pleasure to have you here.


MADDOW: I have – we have talked about Donald Trump in the past. I
have to ask with this proposal from him about banning Muslims from the
United States. Is this unprecedented in modern American politics?

RATHER: Yes. I think the answer is yes, unprecedented. He`s
related to the candidacy of the late George Wallace. Barry Goldwater, if
you will. Huey Long, he`s in that line.

But we`ve not been as a people, as a country, as a society, we`ve not
been in this territory before – someone saying we should limit immigration
into the country based on religion. This is something unique and new.

MADDOW: The radicalness of his proposal has been greeted by I think
with some astonishment and some, oh, there he goes again, because I think
he has as part of the M.O. of his campaign constantly pushed the envelope
in terms of what`s too outrageous for a Main Street political candidate to
get away with.

Has he thereby made all forms of radicalism possible in the campaign?

RATHER: The short answer to that is yes.

By the way, I think it should be noted that each time he goes up and
crosses what some people consider to be a line, it has to do with his poll
numbers. Before he issued this declaration on immigration, his poll
numbers were softening up in Iowa. So, I think it`s no accident, seeing
those poll numbers softened up just a little, he`s still leading but
softened up, he comes up with another what many call outrageous proposal.

But I do think, Rachel, we see clearly what`s happening here. That
Donald Trump, Ted Cruz and the like, they are confusing the bully pulpit
with the B.S. pulpit and they believe – I`m convinced that both Trump, Ted
Cruz and not limited to them in the Republican Party believe that if you
can`t convince people with substance, then you blind them with B.S.

And with Trump, it`s worked fairly well. Trump right now is
absolutely obliterating the other candidates in the primary and caucus
nomination process. He`s Gulliver among the little fusions. I do think he
says what he means and means what he says about running as an independent.

And as many people don`t want to see it, you`re going to see Donald
Trump at the Republican nominating convention this summer, or – and/or,
you`re going to see him at the debates, presidential debates next fall.

As I said to you in August, always point out to you when I`m right,
not when I`m wrong, but I said in August, don`t underestimate this guy,
he`s going to be around for a long time and he`s going to be around for
rest of his campaign process if his health holds out. I don`t see any
indication his health is doing anything but holding.

Part of his appeal is he appeals to fears. He`s playing on people`s
fears. There are real fears in this country about what`s happening in
terms much terrorism. These are real, not limited to Republicans or
Democrats or independents. It`s across the board.

Now, what he is in the process of doing is he`s showing passion and
strength. If you notice, one of the common threads about the criticism of
President Obama`s speech last Sunday was he didn`t show passion and didn`t
convey strength. I`m not saying I agree with that assessment, but there
was a strong strain that ran through the party, he should show some

Well, Trump, like him or not like him, he shows passion and he
communicates strength and that is part of his appeal.

MADDOW: On that point – this is sort of a sensitive question – I
tried to address it last night on my show with some historical analogies so
as to try to take it out of epithet territory, take it out of insult
territory and ground it in basically political science.

But fascism is a real thing. Fascism is a political construct that
has given rise to real political movements that have both run countries and
that have tried to run countries and that have been substantive movements
even in countries that we think of as being a lot like ours, France,
Britain, since World War II.

One of the hall marks of fascism is that the party leader is the
great leader who can do things by sheer force of energetic will. It`s
characterized by willing in es to toy with violence even in political
settings, chauvinism, obviously, xenophobia, different forms of racism or

Is it unfair to invoke a concept that inflammatory and that weighted
for this current political situation we`ve got with the front-runner on the
Republican side?

RATHER: For me, the answer to that is yes. I don`t think Trump has
reached that point yet. Don`t misunderstand me – I`m going to be very

What he said about immigration and limiting immigrants, this is the
best propaganda tool that ISIS has had in a very long time. It`s also good
news to the Democrats and Hillary Clinton. But directly answering your
question – no, I don`t think he`s at that point yet. I think it is unfair
to call him a fascist.

MADDOW: In terms of the Republican response to him, I feel like the
Republican Party`s got a lot of credit for trying to shut him off and
condemning him. More credit than they deserve because I don`t feel like
they`ve been very – I don`t feel like they`ve had that strong a response
to what he has proposed. Is there a model that we should look to in terms
of an appropriate way to deal within their party?

RATHER: Well, the appropriate way is straight on, and deal with
passion and strength in response to it.

You are quite right, by the way. You mentioned this in the opening
segment of the program. That it isn`t true that the Republican Party and
its leader have repudiated Donald Trump. They`re walking on eggshells to
use the cliche.


RATHER: And, frankly, they don`t know what to do. They don`t know
whether to howl at the moon or check their e-mails. They just simply don`t
know what to do about it.

But it isn`t true that the party as a whole and the majority of the
party has repudiated him. That`s not the case. If you want to see
somebody who`s really fearful, number one, look to the very top leadership
of the Republican Party organization. They fear a third party run, an
independent run by Donald Trump.

The other place to look for fear is Republican candidates who are up
for Senate or up congressional seats. If you look at what they`re saying,
they`re very, very careful about what they say about Trump. On one hand,
they fear the hard right of the party which they have got to win to win re-
election. On the other hand, they`re a little afraid of not saying

So, it`s interesting. It`s not amusing but it is interesting to see
them do what used to be called in Texas politics, the old side shuffle.

MADDOW: Dan Rather, former “CBS Evening News” anchor, president now
of News and Guts Media, it`s always great to have you here, sir. Thank

RATHER: Great to be here. Thank you for having me. Thank you very

MADDOW: It`s an honor to have you here every time you`re here.

RATHER: Thanks.

MADDOW: We`ll be right back. Stay with us.


MADDOW: So, we have news tonight from Colorado Springs where a
gunman attacked a Planned Parenthood clinic last month, killed three
people, injured nine others. That suspect hold up in that clinic for more
than five years in the ordeal.

In the days that followed, various political figures weighed in on
what might have motivated the gunman. For example, this was senator and
presidential candidate Ted Cruz.


REPORTER: Do you think the rhetoric involved in the Planned
Parenthood videos in this race had any impact or effect on the (INAUDIBLE)?

CRUZ: Well, I think there has been some vicious rhetoric on the left
blaming those who are pro-life. I`ll tell you, I am a proud to be
unambiguously pro-life, to support protecting every human life from the
moment of conception to the moment of actual death. I think every human
life is a gift from God.

This murder that occurred in Colorado was tragic. It is a criminal
act. We don`t fully know the motivations of this deranged individual.

We know that he was a man who registered to vote as a woman, and the
media promptly wants to blame him on the pro-life movement when at this
point, there`s very little evidence to indicate that.

REPORTER: What about this report where he said, “no more baby

CRUZ: Well, it`s also reported that he was registered as an
independent and as a woman and a transgender leftist activist, if that`s
what he is.


MADDOW: No evidence to blame this on the pro-life movement. He was
a transgender leftist activist.

Today, the suspect appeared in court in Colorado. So, he could be
formally charged in the Planned Parenthood killings. He was charged with
179 separate counts including first degree murder. He what`s not asked to
enter a plea today but he did say in open court today, quote, “I am guilty.
There`s no trial. I am a warrior for the babies.”

And that was just the beginning of this hearing.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This court has a duty to protect the
constitutionality of this proceeding.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s something that can be released.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. I`m going to give it out as is.

DEAR: Could you add to the babies that were supposed to be aborted
that day? Could you add that to the list?

Conceal the truth, huh? Kill the babies. That`s what Planned
Parenthood does.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is difficult for myself and any other counsel
on behalf of any members of the press or the public to meaningfully respond
to pleadings that we have not been given access to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand that. Thank you.

DEAR: You`ll never know what I saw in that clinic. Atrocities.
That`s what they want to seal, the babies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prosecution has not turned over one piece of
discovery to us yet. Not one page of paper and yet they want to set a
preliminary hearing within 30 days?

DEAR: They want the truth out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is unreasonable, judge.

DEAR: This is unheard of that the prosecution is trying to help get
the truth out and you`re trying to stop the truth. You`re trying to make
me –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the problem is obvious.


MADDOW: At this hearing today, it went on and on and on. The
attorney for the suspect questioned whether his client is mentally
competent to stand trial. But with this court appearance today, the
suspect did seem to remove any doubt about his motive, at least in his own

We do not have and may not have for a long time yet a formal official
verdict in this case or even a decision about whether the suspect is
mentally fit enough for trial but it is very much looking like the shooting
deaths at that Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood the day after
Thanksgiving are now the latest murders and attempted murders in the very
latest series of murders and attempted murders carried out by people
motivated by antiabortion beliefs.

The head of Colorado Planned Parenthood in Colorado joins us next.


MADDOW: Today, the suspected shooter at the Planned Parenthood
clinic in Colorado Springs, Colorado, had his first day in court. He
screamed in court repeatedly and said a bunch of things about his motive in
that shooting. It was chilling to say the least.

There is going to be a couple of incidents of live response tonight
on MSNBC. First, I should tell that you Cecile Richards is the national
president of Planned Parenthood. She`s going to be Lawrence O`Donnell`s
guest tonight on “THE LAST WORD”. That`s right after the show, coming up
next hour here in MSNBC.

But coming up here next on this show, we`re going to have the
president of Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains, who`s head of
Planned Parenthood for that specific clinic and she joins us live here



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This court has a duty to protect the
constitutionality of this proceeding.

DEAR: Protect the babies.


MADDOW: That was one of several outbursts in court today by the
suspect in the Planned Parenthood shooting from the day after Thanksgiving.
He also said at the outset of today`s hearing, quote, “I am a warrior for
the babies.” He also said, “I`m guilty, there is no trial.”

That would seem to remove whatever doubts people may have had about
the suspect`s motive at least in the shooting, which left three people
dead, including a police officer and nine other people in the hospital.

Joining us now is Vicki Cowart. She`s president and CEO of Planned
Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains.

Ms. Cowart, thanks very much for joining us. I know this is a hard
time. I appreciate your time.


MADDOW: Let me just ask your response to hearing those outbursts,
those I mean – I guess explanations from the suspect in this case today.

COWART: This has been a very hard time and hearing these has not
helped. We`ve been hit hard and we`re really focused on recovery and
healing. That`s going to take some time just as this case is going to go
on for some time.

Our people need to recover, as you know, families have lost loved
ones, families are taking care of injured, and our on staff need to get
back on their feet after gone through this. And that`s really been our
focus today. But hearing these comments does not help.

MADDOW: In terms of the way that you have tried to be resilient in
the face of this attack and so many people being killed and hurt, has your
organization been able to continue to see patients, have your employees
been able to continue to work – those of whom who aren`t obviously
directly affected by the violence there?

COWART: Yes. Our focus remains on our patients. Again, Planned
Parenthood places the wellbeing and the health of our patients and the
wellbeing and safety of our employees at the very top. We were open the
very next day in all of our other health centers. We are operating on a
regular schedule across the state, across the Rocky Mountain region and,
frankly, across the country because we are caretakers and we place that
work first.

The folks that were in the building, they all got home that night.
They were safe. As did all of our patients who were with us there you this
horrific incident all got home that evening. But still, their recovery is
going to take some time. We`re paying attention, helping them and giving
them some time to do that healing, as it the whole community.

MADDOW: I know you`ve said it has not helped today to hear these
remarks from the alleged shooter in this case. I wonder though if it does
give you some sense of closure or at least clarity, if it sort of clears
away any of the noise that had been surrounding public discourse on this
subject as to whether or not this was somebody who was motivated by his
opposition to abortion rights.

COWART: Rachel, what this makes me believe strongly is that the
political rhetoric in this country, no matter what direction it is coming
from, no matter where you are on the political spectrum, needs to be
focused on ensuring that something like this does not happen again.

Again, we`re going to take some time to recover. Rebuilding will
take some time. I`m fearful that there will be another shooting before
we`ve even gotten our building open again. At a school, at a shopping
center. We don`t know where it is going to be next.

And I think all of us should be focused on how do we keep that from
happening again? Words matter. And people need to think about matter.
People need to think about the impact of their words.

MADDOW: Vicki Cowart, president and CEO of Planned Parenthood of the
Rocky Mountains – again, I really appreciate your time tonight on a night
that I`m sure did you not feel like talking in public. I appreciate you
choosing to do that and being here with us. Thank you.

COWART: Thank you.

MADDOW: Good luck.

We`ll be right back.


MADDOW: I want you to take a moment and imagine yourself receiving
an award from the president, the president of the country. You`re getting
this big award. You`re standing next to the president. It`s a really big

Now, I want you to imagine the most embarrassing thing that could
happen to you in that moment. Dropping the award maybe, passing gas
audibly, maybe fainting from excitement, falling down, right?

Whatever it is for you, just imagine that. The most embarrassing
thing that could happen you to while you were in the act of receiving award
from the president. You got it? Good.

Now, allow me to introduce you to Ivan Cicak. Ivan Cicak heads up
one of the leading human rights groups in the nation of Croatia. He was
receiving an award yesterday from Croatia`s president when tragedy struck.
Relative tragedy, at least.

He was getting this big award. He was standing next to the president
when – his pants gave up.

Now, to her credit, the Croatian president was unflappable. She
artfully lowered the large award ever so slightly in order to protect Mr.
Cicak`s - little Mr. Cicak from public view. There went the pants.

Woo-hoo! Amazing.

And yet, that is not even our pants top related story of the night.
It`s not even in the top, two actually. I wish I was joking but I`m not.

Pants or the lack thereof are in the news tonight concerning two
different high ranking officials in our country.

Stay with us.


MADDOW: About ten blocks away from the White House in downtown D.C.,
there is a nice hotel called the Renaissance. It`s one of those hotels
where if you look out your window, depending on where you are on the hotel,
you can see into nearby buildings because they`re all bunched together in
that one spot.

One morning on July 2008, a group of school teachers going to a
conference that hotel, they looked out, they looked across the way and into
the building next door and what they saw – I don`t quite know how to say
this, was a man having a good time alone with himself.

They saw a man in a conference room, they say, across the way, in
various stages of undress engaged in what ought to have been a private
moment. They saw that Monday morning, again Tuesday morning, again
Wednesday morning, the same man in the glass conference room across the
alley carrying on with himself.

Well, that building that those teachers were looking into, that
happens to be a government office building. It`s offices for the
Department of Veterans Affairs.

The man in the conference room who was allegedly behaving like that
in the window was discovered to be a top V.A. official at the time. He was
the agency`s deputy inspector general.

Based on CCTV and interviews with those teachers, federal
investigators reportedly determined that this was the naked guy in the
conference room. I say reportedly because this new information comes from
a federal government report that was obtained by “The Daily Caller” Web
site. We have verified with the agencies involved that this report exists.
But “The Daily Caller`s” headline tells you everything you need to know
even the parts I won`t say.

According to the report necessity say they obtained, although
surveillance video lead investigators to that specific V.A. official, the
man vehemently denied any wrongdoing at the time he said witnesses in the
hotel were mistaken. That said, he did ultimately retire when confronted
by the investigators. This was the deputy inspector general of the V.A.
during the George W. Bush administration.

The V.A. inspector general`s office told us to day that although this
investigation occurred more than seven years ago, current leadership at the
agency only recently became aware of the matter, which means the Bush
administration did a heck of a job keeping that story out of the public
domain for all these years after that guy lost that job for that
particularly pantless reason, which is stunning.

However, the George W. Bush era V.A. is apparently not to be outdone
in this department by today`s Department of Defense, which just announced
that has officially reprimanded a two star Navy admiral for – here`s the
headline, “Admiral reprimand for drunken naked escapade at Florida hotel.”

This incident was just reported now, reportedly happened in April.
The admiral in question was attending a conference with naturally defense
contractors in Florida when he, quote, “became so intoxicated that an
upscale beach front resort that he struck his head on a bar stool, wet his
pants and needed an escort back to his hotel room.”

Oh, but wait, there`s more. “After striking his head on the bar
stool and wetting his pants and being helped back to his room,” quote, “a
few hours later still in a haze, the admiral re-emerged from his room
without any clothes on as his door automatically locked behind him. As the
admiral stumbled around the grounds of the resort looking for a towel to
wrap around his waist, he was spotted by two alarm female guest who
reported him to hotel security. Tada!

At least this time the report on the incident didn`t get buried for
seven years. The Navy announced this week that this two star admiral has
been transferred back to the Pentagon for some righteous desk duty.

When it comes to covering the news, things that come in threes are
usually better than things that come in twos. But between the drunken
wetting his pants and the naked Navy admiral and the ousted exhibitionist
naked V.A. official in the office window, here`s one set of two of stories
where I`m really hoping there is no third.

That does it for us tonight. We will see you again tomorrow.


Good evening, Lawrence.


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