MTP Daily, Transcript 7/5/2017
Show: MTP DAILY
Date: July 5, 2017
Guest: Terry McAuliffe, Beth Fouhy, Susan del Percio
NICOLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST: I`m Nicole Wallace. MTP Daily starts right
now with Katy Tur in for Chuck. Hi, Katy.
KATY TUR, MTP DAILY HOST: Hey there, Nicole. That`s a really good panel
you have today. If it is Wednesday President Trump is overseas and so are
his biggest troubles. Tonight, North Korea tests a missile with the
potential to reach Alaska and Hawaii. What options does the U.S. have to
counter this nuclear threat?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIKKI HALEY, UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: The United
States is prepared to use the full range of our capabilities to defend
ourselves and our allies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: Plus, where have all of the Republican senators gone?
TUR: How Republicans are dodging health care, fireworks at home over the
holiday break. And one of history`s greatest unsolved mysteries.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amelia Earhart on a globe-girdling flight with
navigator Fred Noonan, (INAUDIBLE) and was never heard from again.
TUR: Eighty years later, do we know what really happened to Amelia
Earhart? This is MTP Daily and it starts right now.
Good evening, I`m Katy Tur in New York. Welcome to MTP Daily. The clock
is ticking on the Trump administration after North Korea shocked experts
yesterday by testing a missile capable of striking the U.S. Moments ago,
President Trump landed in Poland. He begins a crucially important trip
abroad where he will engage with two of North Korea`s most important
allies. The President will meet with G20 leaders including China. He will
also meet one-on-one with Vladimir Putin.
Russia and China put out a joint statement urging diplomatic talks. They
are proposing that the U.S. and South Korea freeze all military drills in
exchange for North Korea freezing its nuclear test.
This afternoon, the United Nation Security Council which includes the U.S.,
Russia and China held an emergency meeting on North Korea. The U.S.
condemned the regime`s actions, threatened military action against it and
also warned of a trade war with North Korea`s allies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HALEY: Their actions are quickly closing off the possibility of a
diplomatic collusion. The United States is prepared to use the full range
of our capabilities to defend ourselves and our allies. There are
countries that are allowing, even encouraging trade with North Korea in
violation of U.N. Security Council resolutions. Such countries would also
like to continue their trade arrangements with the United States. That`s
not going to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: The meeting comes after U.S. officials confirmed North Korea`s claim
that it successfully tested an intercontinental ballistic missile. The
two-stage missile was a weapon that the U.S. has never seen Pyongyang use
before. A rocket like that is capable of reaching Alaska. It`s also
capable of carrying a miniaturized nuclear war head which North Korea is
trying to develop.
Experts differ on when such a nuclear weapon would be operational but some
think it`s a quickly closing window of less than 18 months. The U.S. and
South Korea held a military drill this morning in response to the North
Korean missile test. They fired missiles into the waters of the North
Korean – excuse me, of the Korean peninsula as a show of force.
South Korea also put out a video today assimilating an attack against North
Korea. Meanwhile, President Trump reiterated his frustration with China
for not doing more to reign in its hostile ally. This comes after the
President publicly stated, while standing next to South Korea`s President,
that his patience was wearing thin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The year of strategic
patience with the North Korean regime has failed. Many years it has failed
and, frankly, that patience is over. Our goal is peace, stability and
prosperity for the region, but the United States will defend itself, always
will defend itself, always.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: What exactly are the President`s options? You can separate them into
three buckets. There is containment, which hasn`t worked for any recent
administration. There is negotiation which the U.S. tried in the 90s that
did not work. And North Korea is in a stronger position now than it was
then. Or there`s military action which could lead to a catastrophic death
We`ve got two people who know a thing or two about high-stakes diplomacy
involving North Korea, China and Russia. Chris Hill was the U.S.
Ambassador of South Korea and Michael McFaul was the U.S. Ambassador to
Russia. Gentlemen, thank you very much. Let`s start with this issue of
North Korea. What exactly can the President do right now, Ambassador Hill.
AMBASSADOR CHRIS HILL, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SOUTH KOREA: Well, I think first
of all, he needs to take a retry dealing with some of our European allies
that couldn`t go very well last month. In that regard it was a little
interesting to hear our U.N. Ambassador kind of threaten people without
really regard for what exactly they have done and what we want them to do.
So, we`ll have to see how this plays out but I think it`s very important to
follow up on what Rex Tillerson said which is we are all in this together.
We all need to work together to global problem. We need a global solution.
So that`s number one.
And then obviously in these meetings with Putin and Xi Jinping, he really
needs to hammer home the fact that they are building a deliverable nuclear
weapon and the target is us. And we cannot be indifferent to that, North
and the American people expect our government to be indifferent. So, I
think he needs to be very firm with the Russians and Chinese.
And the idea that they are proposing that North Korea freeze its tests in
return for U.S. and South Korea freezing its exercises is frankly North
Korean propaganda, and they should know better. And the North Koreans for
years have wanted U.S. not to be engaged militarily on the Korean
peninsula. Frankly, they want to kick us out. They want to essentially
decouple the U.S. from South Korea. And I think the President needs to
take a firm view with respect to the Chinese and the Russians, because the
Chinese and the Russians can do a lot better if the object is to slow down
and get rid of the North Korean nuclear ambition.
TUR: But so far, the strategy when it comes to North Korea, the Trump
strategy seems to have gone completely through China. That is the whole
strategy rely on China. In fact, take a listen to Donald Trump talking
about how he was going to deal with it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I would get on with China. Let China solve that problem. They can
do it quickly and surgically. That`s what we should do with North Korea.
We have the leverage. We have the power over China, economic power and
people don`t understand it. And with that economic power, we can reign in
and we can get them to do what they have to do with North Korea, which is
totally out of control.
But China is helping us possibly or probably with the North Korean
situation. I wish we would have little more help with respect to North
Korea from China, but that doesn`t seem to be working out. But I do like
the president a lot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: China, China, China, China, but that doesn`t seem to be working out.
So what is next? What happens now, Ambassador Hill?
HILL: Well, again, you know, gross simplification seems to be the anthem
of this administration. But, you know, he does need to sit down with the
Chinese. He does need to make clear of the Chinese that we`re not prepared
to wait for the sanctions to start working, although we do want to see
China adhere to those sanctions.
And nor are we looking for China to bring us into a negotiation with the
North Koreans unless it`s on the basis of denuclearization. And so far,
Kim Jong-un has shown zero interest in that. His father, Kim Jong-il was
prepared to negotiation on the basis of denuclearization. In fact, he
agreed to it.
So, I think we need to push back with the Chinese and say, Chinese, this is
what we`re looking at. We`re looking at all means possible between peace
and war and somehow slow down the nuclear program in North Korea, are you
with us on that or not. And I think he needs to push. But it would be
helpful if he understood the issues, if he read into what the situation is
with respect to the reactor, with respect to an underground highly enriched
uranium program. And yet, one does not get the sense he wants to do that.
And I would say the big difference between this President and previous
presidents with respect to China is previous presidents talked about the
need to work China. This President seems to have a different model and
sort of outsourcing model. Chinese, you figure this out and we`ll standby.
TUR: Ambassador McFaul, we – you know, we heard Russia and China, they
release that joint statement that said, the U.S. and South Korea need to
freeze on military drills. Beyond that, what is it going to take for
Russia to intervene?
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL MCFAUL, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA: Well, yes, they just
coordinated their positions. They`ve just met on the eve of the G20 summit
that makes a lot more difficult for President Trump.
You know, I think the first fundamental point is the Trump and the Trump
administration need to devise a strategy, not a single sound bite or a
tweet for how they want to deal with North Korea and then they have to
engage both the Russians and the Chinese to do so. And I think about when
I was in the government when we dealt with Iran, we had a long-term
strategy for that ultimate agreement that we got. It started first by
saying we are ready to talk. They said no and then we went to something
U.N. Security Council Resolution 1929 that the Russians and the Chinese
supported. And without that pressure, we would have never got the
agreement that we got. They`re still in the initial stages where I don`t
think they`ve decided whether they want a U.N. Security Council resolution,
whether they want the Chinese to support it, the Russians to support it
until they have a strategy. It`s very difficult to know what to recommend
concretely to say to either President Xi or President Putin
TUR: So we have Nikki Haley at the U.N. Security Council meeting today
saying their actions are quickly closing off the possibility of the
diplomatic solution, which means what would the other solution be? Is that
a military solution?
And a moment ago, I was speaking with the former defense secretary William
Perry and he was talking about how a military solution is not a viable
option either. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM J. PERRY, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We have no good
options that are strictly military. A preemptive strike today which we
would have considered in the past and which was a reasonable option in the
past is not really a good option today. It would certainly lead to
military response in South Korea, conventional military response but it
could be very damaging to South Korea and it`s possible that that military
is escalated into a wider conflict and even escalated into a nuclear war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: Ambassador Hill, talk to me more about what that response might look
like from North Korea if things got – if there was some sort of military
HILL: Well, if you look at a map, you`ll see that there are some 20
million South Korean residents who live within range of North Korean
artillery. North Korean artillery is very forward deployed right up on the
demilitarized zone so our number of North Korean assets. In fact, their
whole military is frankly configured for war.
And so, for us to launch a preemptive strike is to invite a retaliation and
it would be against South Korean citizens. So the first question would be,
are we prepared to talk to the South Korean government about that
possibility? And if we are, I rather suspect the South Korean government
would not choose a preemptive strike as their first option. They would
say, look, well let`s give piece of chance. Let`s look at these various
options, et cetera.
And if we go forward with it, I think the problem would be the South Korean
government would be rather horrified that we would take action who`s
victims or who`s victims of retaliation are going to be South Koreans. And
that would do great damage to the U.S. South Korean alliance which is
precisely the thing we`re trying to protect. So I think preemptive action
is quite fraught as Secretary Perry suggested.
I do believe, however, there should be more effort to look at the various
facilities that North Korea has in terms of its nuclear weapons program and
see what could be done, frankly speaking just to speak plainly, to sabotage
those efforts. I think we need more time. I think we need more time if
North Korea is ever going to be pressured through sanctions because it
seems that their nuclear development is moving a lot faster than the
So this is indeed a tough issue, but I really think the President needs to
lay it out with President Putin that we need help here and spike which
seems to be what motivates him in this issue. Spike for us is not going to
TUR: And Ambassador McFaul, I don`t want to let you go without talking to
you for a moment at least about the Donald Trump meeting and the Vladimir
Putin meeting that we`re going to see on Friday. What do you expect we are
going to see? I know you don`t believe that they`re going to talk about
Russian interference into this election.
MCFAUL: Well, they most certainly should talk about Russian interference.
I think if President Trump doesn`t bring it up, he`s going to look either
weak or ignorant in the eyes of President Putin because Putin knows exactly
what he did. And he expects to be pushed back on that subject and he
expects to hear never do it again or there`ll be sanctions.
So, I hope President Trump understands that diplomacy is not a popularity
contest. It`s a chance to advance American security interest and economic
interest and he needs to do that in a tough, robust way in his first
meeting with President Putin.
TUR: Do you believe he understands that Putin is going to come to this
meeting fully aware of Donald Trump`s strength, his weaknesses that he is
the kind of leader who will bring a Labrador to a meeting with somebody who
was afraid of dogs, which is what he did when he was meeting with Angela
Merkel in Germany?
MCFAUL: Well, I don`t know of any plans for him to bring any dogs to this
meeting, but I have been in several bilateral meetings with presidents and
Prime Minister Putin. He comes prepared. He does his home work. He does
his psychological homework about his Interlaken (ph) tour, and he will come
with a game plan to advance Russia`s national interest. I think he`s going
to appeal to Trump to say, hey, you and I want to get things done together.
And it`s that fake news, and it`s that deep state that`s stopping us.
Let`s work together against them. I hope our President that has a
sophisticated smart rebuttal to that rather silly idea.
TUR: Ambassador Michael McFaul, Ambassador Chris Hill, thank you guys very
much for joining me.
And it is not every day that we have breaking news about Amelia Earhart,
but there is now compelling evidence that she didn`t nearly disappear over
the pacific. She may have been captured by the Japanese. And there is a
photo that may prove it. Stay with us.
TUR: Welcome back to MTP Daily. President Trump is in worsen (ph) on
Poland on a second foreign trip. The North Korean nuclear threat will loom
large over its talks with leaders at the G20 and his meeting with Russian
President Vladimir Putin on Friday. But how will the President`s handling
of these foreign crises play here at home.
Let`s bring in tonight`s panel to discuss. Beth Fouhy is senior politics,
editor for NBC News and MSNBC, Susan Del Percio, Republican strategist and
Jonathan Alter is a columnist for the Daily Beast and an MSNBC political
analyst. Guys, you know, I was speaking with William Perry, the Former
Defense Secretary a little bit earlier today, and Politico has an
incredible article interview with him that, you know, will scare the pants
off of anybody who reads. It`s called, “Bill Perry Is Terrified Why Aren`t
You?” This is the man who knows a thing or two about facing down the
nuclear threat. He is terrified.
Americans don`t seem to be scared and is that changing the politics of how
something like this is handled? Is that why the President can go on a
tweet storm and talk about maybe we should have a nuclear arms race?
JONATHAN ALTER, DAILY BEAST COLUMNIST: Well, it doesn`t seem as if war is
eminent right now and Americans tend to focus on things that are right in
front of them.
ALTER: But I think the story about them being able to reach Alaska is
getting everybody`s attention. And it is on a front page, for instance, in
the New York post.
ALTER: And so I do think it is –
TUR: Is that Bill Withers that is on front page (INAUDIBLE).
ALTER: And Donald Trump`s world it`s a Bill Withers. So surfacing is a
bigger issue. The problem for Trump is not just that he has no good
options. No president would have good options in this situation. Is that
the expectations for him on this issue are especially high.
Just remember, he was elected as the art of the deal guy.
ALTER: Now it`s time to really show that he`s a great negotiator to drive
a hard bargain with the Chinese, get them to pressure North Korea. And
then if they do go around the table with the North Koreans, it`s got a good
deal there. That`s a very tall order.
TUR: So in January he said that North Korea will not get an ICBM. It
won`t happen, he tweeted on Twitter. How does Donald Trump explain to his
base that the ICBM, that North Korea does have an ICBM now when he to go
out there and try to get reelected in 2020?
SUSAN DEL PERCIO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I don`t think that his plans are
trying to explain anything. And Jonathan just, at the beginning, raises
such a good point, no president no matter who the president has been for
the last several terms going forward has a good solution to North Korea.
There are only bad options. And Donald Trump had a lot of his faith early
on and told his followers, China is going to fix it for us. I told China
we much do it.
Today, he did something very dangerous when he started saying, well, so
much for China. It`s been – basically saying it`s been six months, you
haven`t fix a problem that existed for decades. So, I think that the
unfortunate part for this country and Donald Trump`s visit this week is
that all he is going to do is try to show force to his people at home
instead of actually working towards some real solutions while he`s
TUR: You know, we had an editorial board meeting with the foreign minister
of Qatar here at NBC News last week and we were asked him, you know, how do
you deal with the President`s tweets? Obviously, he said that countries
had an issue with it. And the foreign minister basically said, you know,
the President is one thing. We were told to deal with the State
Department, which is remarkable in itself.
BETH FOUHY, NBC NEWS SENIOR POLITICS EDITOR: Yes.
TUR: But, you know, you have the State Department here. Rex Tillerson
doesn`t seem like he is enjoying himself all that much right now. He
doesn`t seem to have that much authority. There`s tons of open rolls in
the State Department that haven`t been filled. So who is driving this car
right now? Is it Trump? Is it the State Department? Is it Secretary
Mattis? Is it H.R. McMaster?
FOUHY: Well, what I`m really struck by to answer that question is not so
much the tweets but rather that most famous statement that came out of his
speech last summer at the Republican National Convention, his accepted
speech, he said, I alone can fix this. That`s when his attitude go into so
many of these promise. I alone can fix your health care. I alone can fix
the economy. Now he`s faced with an I alone can fix it situation which he
clearly cannot. He is stuck now with the same rhetoric that, you know, if
you want to say it was a piece of debate (ph), it`s his statement of what
he is capable of doing.
He did tweet, you know, there will never be an ICBM on my watch. Well
guess what. It happened on his watch. He alone cannot –
TUR: And a few months of him tweeting that.
FOUHY: Yes. He alone cannot fix this and he is trying to figure out the
next move. He seen that – as one of your guest in the last segment when
the ambassador said he seemed to try to outsource everything to China as
supposed to engage China in a diplomatic fashion or in a useful fashion.
Instead he talks about his great personal relationship with the Chinese
leader without actually doing the work of working in that kind of
partnership. That`s what need he needs to start doing is start to get off
the (INAUDIBLE) away from his ego if he can and work alongside with people
who can maybe make this happen.
TUR: That`s the advice for literally everything that Donald Trump has had
to deal with and it`s not.
FOUHY: Right. And it`s the most serious thing of all.
TUR: It`s definitely the most serious. It is much more serious in getting
into a fight with, you know, Cable News host, even though people found it
appalling, that this is a threat of a nuclear showdown.
But if no president has any – has a good option, no one has had a good
option up until now, there isn`t a good military option on the table.
Diplomacy hasn`t work so far. What do you do with the status quo? You
just trying –
ALTER: No, no. We know what needs to be done which is to work with China
and Russia. You know, most of what runs the North Korean pathetic economy
comes from China where there are sanctions but they could be much, much
stronger. In order to do that, to essentially keep anything from coming in
or going out of North Korea, you need the full cooperation of the Chinese
government. That`s not something to tweet about and demand. It requires
very careful diplomacy with a series of carrots and sticks.
And by means of comparison, Barack Obama spent much of his first term
secretly working with China and Russia to get them to not veto a Security
Council resolution for sanctions on Iran, trying to bring them to the
table. It worked. But it was hard work.
TUR: Three dimensional chess.
ALTER: Three dimensional chess –
ALTER: – which this guy doesn`t seem to know how to play.
DEL PERCIO: So at this point, we know it really is up to China. And they
also have a lot of concern about what`s happening in the peninsula there.
So, it`s a question of how far does China think they could give us lip
service to how far China think that they actually – and they have to do
something whether it`s – listen, that we`ve known that they – that China
bribes the generals in North Korea. We know that they have relationship.
We know they have the influence to change a regime if it`s necessary.
It is, though, a really scary game of chicken, but it is one that is going
to be driven by China whether –
ALTER: When they had a puppet (ph) state.
TUR: And what happens if China tries to depose the current regime in North
Korea? What these days winding (ph) effect if that happen. But then also,
there`s always to talk about they don`t want the North Korean refugees.
And then what happens if they are just stronger Korean peninsula stronger,
American influence in that region. It`s not just so easy for China to walk
in there and say we`re going to deal with this, right?
ALTER: What a good president – first of all, I`m not sure that it`s that
clear that China has that much –
DEL PERCIO: I think it`s been proven that it`s pretty clear at this point.
ALTER: There`s no history of it since they create war where they`ve been
able to have regime change because they wanted it. So, the challenge for a
president is to work a whole variety, a very complex angles. The Chinese
are very sophisticated diplomatically. You can`t just have Nikki Haley go
out there and say, we`ll have a trade war if you don`t do it our way.
That`s not the way you handle things.
And a lot of it needs to be done in secret which this President doesn`t
seem to be every into doing. Seek quiet diplomacy. Experience helps, none
of these guys have any experience. Tillerson doesn`t. So, he – that
worsens already that situation.
TUR: Are you guys nervous?
FOUHY: Yes. And what I was going to say to that point is if you`re be
able to reset (ph) your hammer, everything looks like it now. I mean that
sort of how Trump behaves. And this is the situation where – absolutely,
as you describe, you cannot solve the problem this way. It`s so delicate.
It`s so serious.
TUR: You can`t hammer (INAUDIBLE), let`s put it that way.
FOUHY: No, you can`t. And it`s so serious as you`re saying. And this is
DEL PERCIO: To change your question, yes, it`s frightening.
TUR: That isn`t Jon (ph). I`ve got no words. So stick with us, we`re
going to have you a little bit – back later in the hour.
Still ahead, the health care debate didn`t take a holiday over the July 4th
weekend. I`ll talk to Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe about that fight,
plus his refusal to cooperate with the White House request to hand over
TUR: Welcome back. Nearly every state says they either won`t comply with
the request for voter data made by President Trump`s Election Integrity
Commission or they will only offer limited public available information.
That commission was launched by executive order in May to study improper
voter conduct and what the president alleges is fraud in federal elections
despite the fact that instances of voter fraud are extremely rare.
According to the Brennan Center for Justice, it is more likely that an
American will be struck by lightning than impersonate someone else at the
polls. Regardless, the commission sent a letter to 50 states and Washington
D.C. last week requesting voter data including date of birth, party
affiliation, voter history, and the last four digits of social security
numbers in states that record that information.
NBC reports that five states are still reviewing the request or have a
position that is unknown. Twenty-six states say they will give the
commission their public data only which in many cases does not include all
of the criteria requested. Just moments ago, Vermont announced they will
not comply, meaning now 19 states say they will not comply with the
commission`s request whatsoever. And look at the map. Red states and blue
states alike are refusing to cooperate with the Voter Integrity Commission.
One state we left off the list, Kansas, whose Secretary of State Kris
Kobach is the vice chair of the presidential commission, they are releasing
public data but withholding social security numbers though they say they
may release some in the future. Kobach released a statement this afternoon
pushing back against reports that 44 states are not totally complying with
his commission. He called those reports false and more fake news.
We here at NBC News stand by our reporting. Next on “MTP Daily,” Virginia
Governor Terry McAuliffe on what states want to see from the senate`s
health care bill. And could a newly released photograph offer incite into
the decades old mystery surrounding Amelia Earhart`s disappearance? But
first, Aditi Roy has the “CNBC Market Wrap.” Hi, Aditi.
ADITI ROY, GENERAL ASSIGNMENT REPORTER FOR CNBC: Hi there, Katy. The price
stocks on Wall Street closing mostly higher as the text sectors snapped a
three-day losing streak. The Dow lost a point, the S&P added 3 points, the
Nasdaq gaining 40 points. The Federal Reserve releasing the minutes from
its June meeting.
FED officials signaling the Central Bank will be able to start shrinking
its massive $4.5 trillion balance sheet as early as September. As drop in
oil prices weigh heavily on the energy sector, U.S. crude oil prices
settled more than 4 percent lower, breaking an eight-session rally. That`s
it from CNBC, first in business worldwide.
TUR: Welcome back. That was the scene at the 4th of July event yesterday
with Senator Ted Cruz of Texas who faced shouts from a crowd of people on
health care which is front and center from many members of congress back at
home this week. At a 4th of July parade in a remote town in Maine,
Republican Senator Susan Collins told “The Washington Post” that the only
thing anyone wanted to talk to her about was health care.
Some senators are also hearing from their own governors at home, a number
of whom have been very vocal about their concerns with the health care bill
in congress and any rushed time line. Two of those governors from different
sides of the aisle, Democrat Terry McAuliffe of Virginia and Republican
Charlie Baker of Massachusetts, recently wrote a joint letter to Senate
Majority Leader Mitch McConnell on behalf of the National Governors
Association arguing for states to have enough time to review any health
Joining me now is one of those governors, Terry McAuliffe, the chairman of
the National Governors Association. Governor, thank you very much for
TERRY MCAULIFFE, GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA, CHAIRMAN OF THE NATIONAL GOVERNORS
ASSOCIATION: Thanks, Katy.
TUR: Let`s talk a little bit about health care. Democrats as you well know
don`t control the house. They don`t control the senate. They don`t control
the White House. They were losing special elections. What influence, what
weight does the Democratic Party have right now when it comes to trying to
push back on health care? Can they do anything?
MCAULIFFE: Well, first of all, public opinion like you just showed on that
clip like you had before, people are outraged around the country. But I
think the message we are trying do do as governors, both Democrats and
Republicans have come together. I, as chairman of the National Governors
Association, Charlie Baker, Republican of Massachusetts, who has committee
on health, we sent a letter to Leader McConnell asking we need time, we
need to go to this plan.
The plan that the senate put out will cut, I mean cut health care benefits
by $772 billion over 10 years. This will be devastating to the Virginia
economy. I will lose 1.4 billion between 2010 and 2020. Governors, we are
the ones that have to implement this plan. So what you`re seeing is
Republican and Democratic governors coming together to get with their
senators and saying do not vote for it. You`re hurting your state as a
senator. You represent your state.
As governor, I`m telling my senators, Mark Warner and Tim Kaine of course
who support, we are together on this. But for other states where they have
Republican governors telling Republican senators, you cannot pass this. It
was done in secret. It literally will gut the program. And at the end of
the day, Katy, it is going to hurt the most vulnerable. It is going to hurt
the seniors. It is going to hurt those with preexisting condition who can
least afford to be hurt today. It is going to be so expensive that many
people will lose their health care.
TUR: Governor, to be fair, Republican senators ran on repealing Obamacare.
That`s what they got voted into office to do.
MCAULIFFE: What I think they try to tell American public is they will
repeal health care and they will make it better. That was their talking
point. Now, we know the results. They repeal health care. $772 billion cut.
Millions of people will lose their health care. Elderly citizens, you know,
when you look at 65 percent of my Medicaid expenses (inaudible) Virginia,
is elderly long-term care, elderly long-term care.
What am I going to do? Throw these people out in the streets? What will I
do with individuals with preexisting conditions? So the point is, it was a
nice talking point in the campaign, but what they try to convince Americans
that we are going to repeal and give you something better and it will be
better for you, now we know it is not going to be better, it is going to be
bad for America and it is going to hurt millions and millions of Americans.
That`s the box that they are in today.
The rhetoric of the campaign has not hit the reality of governing and they
are in a very tough spot. They need to work, Democrat and Republicans in
Virginia. I have a very Republican legislature. We work together on
economic development, on issues of education, on issues of transportation.
People got to work together. Washington is broken because nobody will work
MCAULIFFE: Let`s get together and figure this out.
TUR: We are pressed for time, so excuse me for interrupting.
TUR: Let`s talk a little bit about this commission, what the president
calls a voter fraud commission. He is saying that he is wondering what
states have to hide. So, what Virginia have to hide?
MCAULIFFE: First of all, we are not handing this data over. This is
personal information of individuals to hand over commission which has no
authority. Congress has not given them any authority. And the people
involved with this commission are the poster children for voter
suppression. We are not going to use our data to try and disenfranchise
voters and knock people off voting rules.
TUR: So you believe it is a voter suppression panel more than anything
MCAULIFFE: Absolutely. Look at the folks that are involved in this. They
have a history of doing this. We are not taking Virginia`s personal data
and handing it over. It`s their data personal information. I`m not giving
that to anybody. But they have a history of voter suppression. We should
make it easier for people to vote.
That is why 40 plus states have said we are not going to do it. This is
because President Trump cannot believe that Hillary Clinton got 3 million
more votes than he did and he is trying to pretend that there are millions
and millions of people who went into the voting booth incorrectly which is
not true. We do not have voter fraud in Virginia.
It doesn`t exist in America. So, get over it. Let`s work together to make
it easier for people to vote. I`m proud of all of the fellow governors and
secretary of states who said, no dice, you`re not getting the data, and
you`ll never get it.
TUR: Governor, I never get to talk to you, so you have to forgive me when I
press you on this. You are a family (ph) guy. You are plugged in. You have
been around democratic politics a long time. You no doubt are having
conversations behind the scenes. No doubt those conversations are probably
everyday. Who is the leader of the Democratic Party right now?
MCAULIFFE: I think there are many leaders of the Democratic Party. I will
TUR: Give me a name, governor. Give me a name.
MCAULIFFE: I`m not going to give you – I`ll say the governors who are
leading their states, creating jobs, building infrastructure, building
education system that works, we have to balance our budgets. Unlike
Washington, they print money and they still can`t balance the budget.
We create jobs. We build infrastructure. We do education. Governors need to
lead the way. Listen. I compliment the folks on Capitol Hill who are doing
what they are doing, but, you know, we need some action out of Washington
to help us compete on a global basis. Today, we are not seeing anything out
of Washington. It is broken.
TUR: Governor, you are a governor, are you talking about yourself?
MCAULIFFE: Yeah. Oh no, as chairman of National Governors Association, I
love all of our governors that we have today. Listen. We have to lead,
Katy. You know that. And that`s what we are going to do.
TUR: I`m just confused.
MCAULIFFE: We have to deliver results.
TUR: I`m confused because I have asked a number of democratic, you know,
big names of Democratic Party this question over the past six, seven, eight
months. I can`t get an answer from anyone about – I can`t get one name
from anybody about who is leading the Democratic Party right now. What does
MCAULIFFE: I don`t think there is one person today. You know, I run the
state of Virginia today. That`s what I got elected to do and 66 percent of
the state think we are heading the right direction. People are happy in
Virginia. But, you know, what people on the national level, you know,
people got to worry about what they got elected to.
I, as a governor, got to worry about the commonwealth of Virginia as my you
my fellow governors and senators and congress folks. But I got to tell you
this, Katy. Things are not working in this country today. I just got back
from my 28th nation trade trip. I got to tell you, when you go abroad right
now, they are asking questions about trade, about immigration policy. The
Trump administration has done nothing but make it harder for me to bring
jobs back to the commonwealth of Virginia.
TUR: Governor Terry McAuliffe, thank you so much for coming on.
MCAULIFFE: Thank you, Katy.
TUR: I appreciate your time.
MCAULIFFE: Thank you.
TUR: Still ahead, shedding new light on an 80-year-old mystery. New
evidence that Amelia Earhart survived her crash in the Pacific, and there
is a photo that just may prove it.
TUR: Welcome back. The story that really has everyone talking today isn`t
North Korea or Russia or health care. It is a potentially blockbuster
development in one of the world`s most enduring mysteries. What happened to
Amelia Earhart? A team of investigators has unearth a photo that they
believe shows that the legendary aviator, Amelia Earhart, survived a crash
landing in the Pacific Ocean in 1937.
The picture found in a formally top secret file in national archives and
possibly taken by a U.S. spy shows a woman resembling Amelia Earhart and a
man who appears to be her navigator, Fred Noonan, on a dock in the
Marshall Islands. NBC`s Tom Costello has more.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
TOM COSTELLO, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: In 1937, the Japanese had banned
nearly all westerners from the island. But in the photo, it appears there
are two Caucasians on the dock. A man standing on the left and what appears
to be a woman with short hair wearing pants like Earhart sitting on the
edge. Henry took the photo to facial recognition expert, Ken Gibson, who
first overlay the photo of the man with file photos of Fred Noonan.
KEN GIBSON, FACIAL RECOGNITION EXPERT: The hairline is the most distinctive
characteristic. It`s very sharp receding hairline. The nose is very
COSTELLO: The teeth, hairline, and nose all appear to match up.
GIBSON: It is my feeling that this is fairly convincing evidence. This is
COSTELLO: Then, the person sitting with back to the camera with hair that
appears too long for a man and too short for a native woman. Gibson
compared the body measurements with previous photos of Earhart. Again,
GIBSON: I usually go from not likely to likely to very likely to extremely
likely. I would say this is very likely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: Wow! We are going to have Tom Costello up with us next in just a
moment to talk more about this stunning discovery.
TUR: Time for “The Lid.” We are diving into a fascinating new development
on the mystery of the Amelia Earhart disappearance. NBC`s Tom Costello has
the story for us. Tom, I got to say I have watched your piece on “Today
Show” once. I have seen a bunch of hits on it throughout the day on MSNBC.
Every single time I see that video overlaying Noonan`s face from file
footage on to that new photo, I am stunned. What more can you tell us about
this and what else are we going to end up learning?
COSTELLO: Of course there are skeptics. There are people who say the photo
is too grainy, that you can`t see anything for sure. However, you know, the
photographic analysis is pretty compelling especially on Noonan as you saw
and the body measurements of Amelia Earhart, from underarm to underarm,
from her trunk, all are very compelling. And look at the hair and look at
the fact that a woman in 1937 is wearing pants.
COSTELLO: All of that is very compelling. What`s even more compelling is
that she is sitting on a dock, it would appear surrounded by natives, by
locals, and she is staring at the ship. Evidence is that that is the Koshu,
the Japanese merchant ship, Koshu, and it is trailing something on a barge.
They have blown that evidence up, what is on the barge, and they believe
that it is a 38-feet piece of something.
Her plane was 38-feet long. But here`s what makes this compelling. This is
not coming out of the blue, this is coming after decades of people on the
Marshall islands and in Saipan, saying that she crash-landed in the
Marshall Islands, was picked up by the Japanese, specifically they have
said for years by the Koshu, and that they took her eventually to Saipan
where she and Noonan died in Japanese custody.
How they died? There`s one report that Noonan was beheaded, that she may
have died of dysentery in a prison. But the history team, the history
channel investigator team, unearthed a lot of evidence not only with
interviews but also this document and this photograph.
TUR: Tom, why now, though? Why are we learning about this today and not 10
years ago, five years ago? Why today?
COSTELLO: Listen, some of the history channel`s timing is probably tied to
the 80th anniversary of her disappearance. However, it is true that a
former treasury investigator by the name of Les Kinney, who has been
obsessed with the Earhart drama for years has spent 15 years in his
retirement looking for clues. He went to the national archives, couldn`t
find anything in a file marked Amelia Earhart.
By the way, there is however a catalog and one of the items in the catalog
says a report on Amelia Earhart taken prisoner in the Marshall Islands, but
that document is missing. But he did then start going through any
photographic evidence of the Marshall Islands, because back then the United
States was gathering photographs of all of these islands that they thought
the Japanese were active in, because, of course, the Japanese were rolling
across the Pacific at that time.
And so this photograph was in a file marked Marshall Islands. It didn`t say
Amelia Earhart on it. Had it, it might not have been in that file. But Les
Kinney started going through hundreds of photographs with a very tight
microscope or magnifying glass I think you should say, and he discovered
what he believes could be Earhart and Noonan.
TUR: Tom, hold on a second, I`ve got the panel with me. Beth Fouhy, Susan
del Percio, Jonathan Alter. John got a question for you.
JONATHAN ALTER, COLUMNIST FOR THE DAILY BEAST, MSNBC ANALYST: Tom, setting
aside the photograph for a minute, I was fascinated when earlier today you
said that the U.S. government after the war didn`t want to pursue this
because it might upset U.S.-Japanese relation at a time when we were
getting on good terms with them and trying to help them rebuild their
Might there not be some cable traffic or other documents in State
Department files maybe that related to the MacArthur occupation of Japan or
other relations with Japan in the 10 or 15 years after the war that might
shed light on this?
COSTELLO: Yes. Let me be clear. I was asked why would the United States not
have confronted the Japanese with that photograph after the war or
presented it, and I said among the theories is that the United States would
not want – may not have wanted to embarrass Japan. But we don`t know. We
have no idea what happened post World War II.
However, I will tell you that the two-hour documentary on the history
channel includes intercepted coded communications with the Japanese. All of
that will be laid out in their documentary on Sunday. And those coded
communications seem to suggest that they knew where Amelia Earhart was back
BETH FOUHY, NBC NEWS SENIOR POLITICS EDITOR: Hey, Tom, this is Beth Fouhy.
Just to that point, is that perhaps why Amelia Earhart and Noonan were
never heard from again? If indeed they did land and they were alive that
there was never any effort to let them communicate with their families or
anyone else? That somehow we`re thinking that there was some sort of
government involvement or perhaps conspiracy that kept them silent all
these many years?
COSTELLO: Right. So why would in theory, in theory, why would the Japanese
have taken them into custody? Well, the theory goes because the Japanese
were involved in a buildup, a military buildup in the Pacific at that time,
and they may have been convinced that she in fact was a spy. And the locals
have said all along, she is a spy, don`t talk about this, we`re taking her
That`s what the locals said that the Japanese told them at the time. So if
they believed that she was a spy, then they – or they were afraid that she
saw something she shouldn`t have seen, they may have just decided it was in
their interest just to take her back to Saipan and therefore not tell the
world that she was in their custody.
TUR: Tom, if the ship was towing her plane, wouldn`t the plane still exist
COSTELLO: No, because the plane was allegedly taken back to Saipan, a
2,000-mile voyage, back to the big military base in Saipan, and many
witnesses have said that that plane was eventually scuttled and thrown into
a big heap of wreckage after World War II. And in fact they claim that
wreckage right now sits underneath the main airfield in Saipan.
TUR: And again what`s the deal with the stamps?
COSTELLO: So, in the 1980s, the Marshall Islands even issued those stamps,
you see right there. They were so convince that this is fact, this has been
what they talked about for decades, those stamps show the plane landing in
the Marshall Islands, the natives seeing it, and the Japanese ship Koshu
taking the plane away. So what`s fascinating now about this photograph is
it seems to cement the timeline and the narrative that`s been going on for
Marshall Islanders have said for years she crash-landed there. The Japanese
ship Koshu picked her up. They took them over to (inaudible) Island and
then on to Saipan. This photograph seems to show exactly that. Can I just
quickly tell you, we have reached out to the Japanese for comment. The
minister of defense, the foreign ministry of the national archives all say
they have no documentation to suggest they ever had Amelia Earhart in
TUR: You know, we can keep talking about this for the rest of the show, but
I`m told we have to take a break. I`m sorry, Susan, I talked over your
question. What an anchor monster I`ve turned out to be. Guys, thank you
very much. Tom, thank you. Beth, Susan, and Jonathan. After the break, some
news today about the FBI`s future and its past. Stay with us.
TUR: In case you missed it, there is still no director of the FBI. It`s
been 57 days since James Comey was fired, 28 days since the White House
named Christopher Wray as his replacement. And today, we finally have a
timetable for when he will get a vote in the senate. Wray`s first hearing
before the Senate Judiciary Committee will be July 12th, one week from
From the FBI`s future to its past, in case you missed it, it was one year
ago today that then FBI Director Comey announced the findings of the
investigation to Hillary Clinton`s use of a personal e-mail system while
secretary of state. Comey`s statement Clinton erred in judgment but he
would not recommend charges. And that, as they say, is history. That`s all
for tonight. We`ll be back tomorrow with more “MTP Daily.”
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