MTP Daily, Transcript 5/25/2017

Juan Zarate, Ken Dilanian, Jennifer Palmieri, Ramesh Ponnuru, Eliana Johnson

Date: May 25, 2017
Guest: Juan Zarate, Ken Dilanian, Jennifer Palmieri, Ramesh Ponnuru,
Eliana Johnson

CHUCK TODD, MSNBC HOST: That was an all-star panel. I loved it. So, it`s
good to see them there up in New York. We`ll see you soon, I hope.


TODD: Well, if it`s Thursday, the political punches have gotten real.
Tonight, no apologies.


should apologize.


TODD: The Montana Republican special election candidate faces an assault
charge for attacking a reporter as the final votes were being cast. Where
is the outrage among Republican office holders?


RYAN: The people of the state of Montana are going to decide today who
they will send to Congress.


TODD: Plus, the dubious document. Did unreliable intelligence inform
James Comey`s handling of the Clinton e-mail investigation?

And America first. President Trump hits the world body he once called


contribute their fair share –


TODD: This is MTP DAILY and it starts right now.

Good evening, I`m Chuck Todd here in Washington and welcome to MTP DAILY.

So, what the heck is going on in Montana and what the heck has happened to
most of the Republican Party right now? Their reaction to Montana
Republican congressional candidate Greg Gianforte`s violent confrontation
with “Guardian” reporter, Ben Jacobs, has been alarmingly apathetic.

In case you missed it, Jacobs says Gianforte body slammed him as he was
asking a question about health care. Here`s what the exchange sounded like
on tape.




I`m sick and tired of you guys. The last time you came here, you did the
same thing. Get the hell out of here.


TODD: The Jacobs account was corroborated by a Fox News crew who saw it


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gianforte grabbed him by the neck, both hands. Slid
him to the side. Body slammed him and then got on top of him and started
punching and then yelling at him.


TODD: But Gianforte`s campaign blamed Jacobs and then tried to smear him.
Quote, “It`s unfortunate that this aggressive behavior from a liberal
journalist created this scene at our campaign volunteer barbeque.”

Gianforte has since been charged with misdemeanor assault. But, folks, as
bad as that incident was last night, it arguably got worse today. Some
House Republicans seemed to almost defend what he did.


REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R), TEXAS: We didn`t have a course on body slamming
when I went to school. I missed that course. I`m sorry I missed it.

REP. TRENT FRANKS (R), ARIZONA: It`s ironic that this focus is on this one
event when occupy Wall Street, you know, attacking civilians. The left has
precipitated this tense confrontational approach throughout the country in
recent months.


TODD: OK then. A Republican Congressman Steve Stivers who runs the House
Republicans` campaign arm also defended Gianforte, saying, quote, “From
what I know of Greg Gianforte, this was totally out of character. But we
all make mistakes. We need to let the facts surrounding this incident
unfold. Today`s special election is bigger than any one person. It`s
about the views of all Montanans.”

And then, there`s Republican Congressman Glenn Grothman who said, I think
he`d be very welcome here. Seems like a good guy. We need somebody who`s
going to drain the swamp. And if you`re draining the swamp, you`re on our

Now, some Republicans did not condone what Gianforte did but they are
rooting for him anyway to win tonight`s special election.


REP. LEONARD LANCE (R), NEW JERSEY: I believe we should all treat the
press with respect and I try to lead by example. I, of course, hope that
the Republican is successful today because I think his views are the views
of the people of Montana.

REP. CHARLIE DENT (R), PENNSYLVANIA: The conversation should always be

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would he be welcome in the Republican caucus if he
wins tonight?

DENT: Yes.

RYAN: Should the gentleman apologize? Yes, I think he should apologize.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If he wins, will you approve (ph) him?

RYAN: If he wins, he has been chosen by the Montana –the people of
Montana who their Congressman is going to be. I`m going to let the people
of Montana decide who they want as their representative. That`s not our
choice. That`s the people of Montana who choose that.


TODD: For what it`s worth, we`ve really only seen two full-throated
condemnations. Senator Ben Sasse who tweeted, a big part of a public
servant`s job is teaching civics. If the first amendment means anything,
it means you can`t body slam a journalist.

And then, there`s Congressman Mark Sanford who, strangely enough, seemed to
channel what I was thinking on this. Quote, “People feel like if the
president of the United States can say anything to anybody at any time,
then I guess I can too. And that is a very, very dangerous phenomenon. I
think it is more general than it is specific to the press, but the press is
one of the bogeyman out there. There`s a reason the founding fathers put
the first amendment as the first one we all need to think about.”

And then, there`s the political impact of the race itself which has been
thrown into total chaos. The race now looks more winnable than ever for
the Democrats but this incident, ironically, might have been the worst
thing could have happened to them.

[17:05:06] If Republicans lose, they can now blame on it a bad candidate
who snapped at the end of a campaign. And if Democrats lose, they`ll be
blamed for not spending enough time and money earlier in this race that
clearly, by the end, was primed for an upset.

MSNBC Correspondent Garrett Haake is in Bozeman, Montana. And, Garrett, I
think the big question is, we know two-thirds of the vote is in. And you
assume that the people that have already voted are people that always vote.
And they probably always vote the same way every time.

The people that vote today may truly be the swing voters. What have you
seen today?

GARRETT HAAKE, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, Chuck, it`s important to note
that Gianforte has been totally silent today. He has not said anything
beyond that statement last night.

And based on the voters I was talking to today, that strategy might
actually work for him.

But we spoke to voters at a polling place in Bozeman that I would have to
say was probably more friendly to Rob Quist, the Democrat who`s running in
this race. And I`ve talked to probably two dozen voters, admittedly not a
very scientific sample.

But nobody told me they were changing their vote because of what happened.
Some of the Quist people said they were, sort of, pumped up. They felt
like they had to defend Montana and come out and make their votes.

But even those the people who were backing Gianforte, the ones who were,
sort of, more cautiously doing so, said, yes, maybe this is the kind of
thing that might make me question his character a little bit. But the
policy differences here were so stark, they were still going to pull the
lever for him anyway.

So, what you didn`t see was anybody saying this is the kind of thing that
moved me from one camp to the other.

TODD: You said that Gianforte has been silent and Quist has barely
mentioned this, has he?

HAAKE: Yes. Quist – I was with the Quist campaign yesterday when this
happened. And his campaign staff, sort of, scrambled to respond at all.
They brought him out on camera and his only comment at the time was that it
was a law enforcement issue.

He didn`t comment on it again at another event later in the night. It`s
possible his campaign just decided this was the kind of thing where they
can`t really make this night any darker for Gianforte.

But the DCCC, the Democratic Campaign Committee, doesn`t necessarily agree
with that. They`re running radio ads in Montana today to make sure people
hear that sound.

TODD: Ah, they`re jumping in very, very late in this process. Garrett
Haake in Montana on the ground for us. Garrett, thanks very much.

And joining me now is the chairman of the Democratic Party, Tom Perez. Mr.
Chairman, welcome to the show, sir.

with you, Chuck.

TODD: Let me start with a simple question. I don`t know if there`s a
simple answer. How do you explain losing – how do you explain losing
tonight if you come up short?

PEREZ: Well, you know, we`re moving forward into Montana. What happened
yesterday, Chuck, is indefensible. It`s not only potentially criminal but
it`s really conduct unbecoming a potential member of Congress.

If you can`t assistant the heat, stay out of the kitchen. And the irony
about that was that he was asked a simple question about the Affordable
Care Act. It is indefensible but there`s no excuse for knocking the guy
over. And we`re working hard.

You know, underdogs win and Rob Quist, I talked to him a few days ago.
He`s working his tail off. I think we have some wind at our back. We`ve
got the issues on our side. It`s a state that Donald Trump won

And so, he is undeniably an underdog. It`s vote by mail so a lot of people
voted prior to when the assault took place.

At the same time, you know, again, I – people – this health care issue is
very real because, you know, it`s not just Democrats that have pre-existing
conditions. It`s people across the board. And what they`re trying to do
to 10s of millions of people who rely on access to quality health care is
unconscionable and indefensible.

TODD: Right.

PEREZ: So, I hope they`ll take that to the polls. And, by the way, people
can register as we speak and I hope they get out there and register to

TODD: But the reason I ask – the reason I ask my question the way I asked
it, which is you caught a break here at the end. A candidate gets exposed
to character tests. He gets exposed in the last minute.

But the question is whether the Democrats were there in time to take
advantage. I know it`s late here. But you look at the spending advantage.
The Republican Congressional Campaign Committee has outspent the Democrats
three to one. The Republican Pacs, including one led by Speaker Ryan, has
outspent the Democratic Pacs in this race 16 to one.

Your own organization would not tell us how much money you`ve spent but the
RNC has spent almost a million dollars. The fact of the matter is, why
didn`t you guys take this race seriously earlier? You didn`t. You have
lately but you – the money – you didn`t put your money where your mouth

PEREZ: Well, Chuck, you`ve run campaigns so you understand in the world of
post citizens united, we`re never going to match the Republicans dollar for
dollar. That`s why we need to overturn citizens united. All the dark
money that goes there and elsewhere.

[17:10:05] But I`m proud of what we`ve done. You know, we have a – we`ve
had a digital team out there for some time. We`ve made significant
investments, not only in the digital operation but –

TODD: So, you don`t acknowledge that you should have jumped in sooner?
That if you guys come up two or three points short, you`re going to sit
there and say, boy, imagine if you took this race as seriously as you took
Georgia two months ago?

PEREZ: Well, you know – well, Chuck, you know, the – first of all, the
polls aren`t closed yet. And we are –

TODD: No, you still might win. There`s no doubt.

PEREZ: – I`m very – I feel very good about this. And, Chuck, you know,
the reality is he should be up by 20 points because that`s how things have
happened in the past the in Montana.


TODD: Well, wait a minute, the state has elected a Democratic senator.
Not that long ago, the state had two Democratic senators. John Tester has
been reelected twice. It is not a shock that a Democrat is competitive.

I was shocked, frankly, Mr. Chairman – and this is more may be a question
directed to the DCCC. I was shocked at the lack of interesting in the
national party in trying to engage in this race sooner.

PEREZ: Well, I actually have great respect for Ben Ray Lujan who has done
a great job at the DCCC. And you know what? They have been on T.V. for
some time.

They have been, again, boots on the ground for some time. You know, I –
when I ran my first race – when I ran, I got outspent, like, three to one,
four to one.

And you know what? We spent smart. And we had both – I thought a better
candidate, a better message, and, you know, a better strategy out there.

And the grassroots support out there for Rob Quist is remarkable. Tapping
into that through a lot of the digital investments that we`ve been making.
Because in a state as wide as and big as Montana, what you have to do is,
you know, connect with people virtually. Use all the digital tools you

And I think we`ve been doing a pretty darn good job of connecting in that
way. And I – again, I spoke with Mr. Quist a couple days – a few days
ago. And, you know, as I`ve said throughout, you know, how can we be

TODD: Yes.

PEREZ: And I`m proud of the work we`ve been doing.

TODD: Mr. Chairman, thanks for coming on. Appreciate you coming on and
sharing your views, sir.

PEREZ: Always a pleasure.

TODD: You got it.

Trying get some perspective from the other side. I`m joined by a former
elected Republican member of Congress, Tom Davis. He was chairman of the
National Republican Congressional Committee.

As you might expect, not a lot of elected – currently elected Republicans
were anxious to talk about this story today.


TODD: Tom, welcome. Let me ask you this. Can you explain why it is so
hard for so many House Republicans, including Speaker Ryan, to simply say,
while we`re always pulling for the Republicans to win in these – in these
special elections, this man doesn`t have the character to be in the
Congress. Why is it so difficult?

DAVIS: Because it`s a seat in Congress. This is a power struggle, at this
point. Democrats need 24 seats. These are parliamentary elections, Chuck.
It`s not about the person anymore.

TODD: I understand that but we – is political expediency always going to
trump small D Democratic decency?

DAVIS: You may – you may get it tomorrow.

TODD: Right, it`s always the day after though. It`s always after the
polls close.

DAVIS: After the – the day after the election. Nobody wants to be the
person that throws your candidate under the bus on election day.

TODD: You know, it was – Josh Barrow had an interesting piece today in
“Business Insider” where he essentially through all of this, sort of, the
way the name calling goes on the right.

I think we have the quote we can pull – put it up here. I hope we have
the element in here. Republicans are a party who now celebrates the bully
who steals lunch money because, hey, at least he`s not the nerd who gets
his lunch money stolen. A party that celebrates not just cruelty but
juvenile cruelty.

There`s been sort of a juvenile nature to by people I used to consider
adults in the (INAUDIBLE.)

DAVIS: We`re in a system today and it`s such a divided country where bad
behavior gets rewarded. That`s the reality. You get up and yell, you lie,
in the State of the Union. You`ll – you raise a million dollars online
the next week. That`s the society we live in today.

TODD: You know it`s going to get copy catted.

DAVIS: It is being copycatted. You look at the 2010 Tea Party. Democrats
are copying that – have been using that same attitude now going into town
meetings and everything else. We call it the herbal Tea Party –

TODD: Right.

DAVIS: – on the left. They went to school on what the Republicans did.
And each side, it tends to get exaggerated each cycle no matter which
party`s in control.

TODD: Look, you`re a long-time handicapper as well on all of this stuff.
Obviously, if Quist had won without this political earthquake.

DAVIS: I agree.

TODD: (INAUDIBLE) of the door.

DAVIS: I agree with that.

TODD: He wins now, Republicans can chalk it up to, oh, hey, this guy –
you know, hey, we had a bad candidate. And they`ll trash him and throw him
under the bus. What`s the reality here? How much trouble – how much
trouble is Speaker Ryan in not becoming – being speaker?

DAVIS: Well, let me give you historical perspective. The last three times
one party has controlled the House, the Senate and the presidency was in
1994, 2006, 2010. Huge ways.

There is a vast group in the middle of this country that doesn`t trust
either party and they use the mid-terms elections to make a correction.
Basically, not to give the president an unchecked –

[17:15:08] TODD: (INAUDIBLE.)

DAVIS: Put the normal on the president instead of giving you a blank

TODD: Under normal times, this a difficult cycle. Throw in Russia, throw
in health care and now what?

DAVIS: You throw – yes, but under normal times it`s tough. And they
haven`t been able to – Congress, at this point, hasn`t been able to
produce much of a legislative part.

Now, look, you`ve got 18 months. You still have a long way to go for
Republicans to wake up and recognize, maybe we ought to pass some things
and work together as a team.

Because I can tell you this, if they don`t work together as a team and get
stuff passed, their base is just going to disappear and not show up.

TODD: And tell me about – look, you were a former RNC guy. We are in
this period. You have two types of candidate recruiting you have to do
right now. Find candidates to run in seats. And find – make sure
incumbents don`t retire.

If I were Paul Ryan right now, how concerned – I would be concerned about
a bunch of members going, geez, I don`t know if this is worth the effort
that it`s going to be, especially even if I win, I may be in the minority.

DAVIS: Well, you have a lot of long-term members that really never had a
race and had to run an operation that are getting protesters at the town
meeting, picketers outside. And you`re going to ask yourself, do I really
want to go through this again? Do I want to go out undefeated and
unindicted? Or do I want to come down and face a real tough reelect?

TODD: And when does that clock start becoming – when are you up against
that clock? Is this what the summer is about? Is this August recess? Is
it the – when does that assessment – when do you start seeing that –
sort of, that assessment take place?

DAVIS: Well, I think when you go back in August, when you come back and
you take a look at things, you`ll really start – people taking a hard
look. But (INAUDIBLE) Ross Leighton (ph) who had every right to retire
because he had a great career, at this point.

TODD: Right.

DAVIS: But the Republican vote would have probably held that seat because
she`s got her own –

TODD: She could have held it.

DAVIS: Yes, her own personal brand.

TODD: Yes.

DAVIS: But you take that out and it becomes very difficult in a tough

And the other thing is the transactional money in this town and across the

TODD: Yes.

DAVIS: They like to go with winners. And if it looks like you`re going to
lose, you`re going to see some of that money shift over to the Democrats as

TODD: Very interesting. Tom Davis, a little bit of a reality check. Good
to see you, sir.

DAVIS: Thanks, Chuck.

TODD: By the way, Greg Gianforte was originally scheduled to be on the
show tonight. He cancelled this morning.

Next, we`re going to hear – we`ll hear from Ben Jacobs, a reporter
involved in the confrontation in Montana.


TODD: Welcome back.

A big question heading into the president`s first NATO summit today. Would
he reaffirm the United States` support for NATO`s article five? That`s the
NATO requirement that an attack on one member country is an attack on all.

Well, after Mr. Trump`s tough rhetoric regarding NATO on the campaign
trail, many NATO members were hoping to hear specific reassurance on
article five.

Now, President Trump did mention article five in his remarks to NATO, but
he stopped short of explicitly endorsing the provision.

But is that actually unusual? It happens to be not that unusual. We went
back and checked. The last four U.S. presidents also did not mention
article five by name in their first NATO addresses either.

And that said, none of their – none of them were being questioned on
whether they considered NATO an important alliance or not.

[17:20:00] A senior White House official told NBC News that the president`s
participation in today`s summit should be seen as an endorsement of article
five. And White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer said after the speech
that the president is 100 percent committed to article five.

We`ll have more on the tensions surrounding the president`s meeting with
the NATO allies after the break. We`ll be back in 60 seconds.


TODD: Welcome back.

Top story, of course, is body slamgate, if you want to call it that. It
has shaken up American politics as Montana voters head to the polls.

Kasie Hunt, my colleague, who cover Congress for us, spoke to the reporter,
Ben Jacobs, just a few moments ago.


physically on top of you.


HUNT: And you did not touch him, at any point during this contrary to the
statement they made later?

JACOBS: No. No. No. No. I would never touch him. I would never. And
my job is to – I mean, I`m there to be a reporter. I`m not – this is not
– this is – you know, it`s American politics. It`s not supposed to be
professional wrestling.


TODD: I`m joined now by the panel. Eliana Johnson, the National Political
Reporter with “Politico.” Jennifer Palmieri, former communications
director for the Clinton campaign and the Obama White House. And Ramesh
Ponnuru, Senior Editor for “The National Review.”

Eliana, let me start with you. I guess, it feels sad today that there
hasn`t been more outrage on the official right, I guess is probably the way
to put it, among official Republic – elected Republicans. Why do you
think that hasn`t been the case?

the Congressman is right that Republicans are reluctant to throw a
candidate under the bus on the day of the election.

But I actually don`t agree that this is some sort of a broader Trump
phenomenon. I think this is a guy who`s clearly temperamentally unfit for
office. I don`t think it matters, really, that this was a journalist.
It`s a terrible thing to do to anybody.

And, beyond that, his team has shown they have zero political skill in not
coming out and apologizing, offering a transparently false explanation. I
think that`s almost reason alone enough for Republicans to distance
themselves. The guy is temperamentally unfit. His team has no political
skill. I mean, goodbye.

TODD: I guess, it`s just been startling, Ramesh, the amen choir, you know,
on social media.

appalling. I think the other factor that`s causing this, not that I
endorse it, is that people think he probably is still going to win and then
they`re going to be having him as a colleague, needing his vote. And that,
I think, is another thing that`s causing them to say, well, you know, we
didn`t like Trump. We didn`t like his behavior. He won, too.

like, another example of the – of Republicans buying into Trumpism. Like,
I`m looking the other way and being OK with it.

And I think it wouldn`t have happened – I mean, I think Trump – the Trump
phenomenon, in and of itself, is partly a result of the coursing (ph) of
our culture. And, you know, I think these are – these two things are

But I think – I don`t think this would have happened without Donald Trump
being president.

TODD: I guess, when is, sort of, elected leadership in Washington going to
have a Samuel Jackson moment with snakes on a plane? Like, enough is
enough. I`m tired of these – and if we –

PALMIERI: Well, it`s June so –

TODD: – if we – if just – but we have just – we just allow to it
happen. We`re just like, well, that`s just the way it is.

PALMIERI: Yes. And the Republicans are either going to have the moment
where they – where they understand that they`re looking at a generation of
losses following Trump and get –

TODD: But are they? Well, wait a minute. Are they?

PALMIERI: Either they will or they –

TODD: What if the voters don`t see –

PALMIERI: I just don`t –

TODD: I mean, look, Garrett Haake went to plenty of voters and said –

PALMIERI: No, no, no, I agree with that in Montana. I`m not talking about
Montana. I`m talking about the whole country, though.

TODD: Well, I mean, and that`s – there`s plenty of voters who think, yes.
And the thing is they`ve been conditioned for 25 years to just assume the
media is the enemy.

JOHNSON: You know, in the 19th century, we had congressmen slamming chairs
over each other`s heads on the House floor. But I think Paul Ryan came out
today and he said, the people of Montana will make their choice or, you
know, the people in the district.

[17:25:00] But I don`t think it would have been inappropriate for him to
say, should they choose Gianforte, that he`s not somebody that House
Republicans are looking forward to having as a colleague. I think that
would have been a greater moment of leadership than a, sort of, anodyne
statement –

TODD: Right.

JOHNSON: – that seemed – obviously – he was obviously reluctant to
distance itself from the guy (ph).

TODD: And, buddy, just wait until you see the committee assignments you`re
going to get from me. Well, I mean, you know, I think send some message
here that, you know what? Not all behavior is condoned.

PONNURU: And Speaker Ryan did the right thing on a few occasions, with
respect to Donald Trump last year and every single time it backfired.

PALMIERI: Well, every single time he walked it back. I mean, –

TODD: Right, he gets a lesson. That`s a lesson to learn.

But let`s go to the “Politico.” There`s another story here which is, the
Democrats have this – Jennifer, have this opportunity sitting in front of


TODD: But as I went through with the DNC chair. Basically, the Democratic
Party has discovered the Montana special election about 10 days ago. And
they chose not – and this has been a continuing, I think, push-pull in the
Democratic Party more so than in the Republican Party. Which is
Republicans see – they see – they see wind against them and they throw
money at it.


TODD: Democrats see wind against them and they run away.

PALMIERI: See, I think that – I think what they`re trying – what you`re
trying to balance is, do I go all in in a race in one – you know, for one
seat in a race in Montana in early – you know, relatively early 2017.

And then, you get to 2018, and we`ve got a bunch of seats that are
competitive that we have, like, blown a bunch of money in Montana and
Georgia. And this is, like, really a smart thing? And that`s really a
smart thing to do. And, like, this is the stuff that you`re all – that
they are always balancing and how helpful is it for the national party
really to come into Montana and get involved?

TODD: I get that explanation. It seems – it seems like a weak
explanation. I mean, I get – look, I know that`s thinking that goes into

PALMIERI: Yes, that is – that is the thinking that goes into it.

TODD: But is it out – is it outstated thinking these days?

PALMIERI: Meaning is a win a win and you should grab a win when you can?

TODD: Yes.

PALMIERI: Well, I`m a little more – I am, personally, a little more
aggressive about, you know, taking opportunities where you can see it and
not assume you can`t –

TODD: So, you think Democrats deserve –

JOHNSON: And I really want to throw the Democrats under the bus at the end
of the day.

PALMIERI: I think you should not assume – I think you shouldn`t assume
that – you shouldn`t assume that what was not possible last year, isn`t
possible this year.


PALMIERI: Like, I think, that, like, we – like, we should throw out our
filters of how we look at races and see new – and see things as a new
opportunity because we are definitely in a different universe.

PONNURU: It`s clearly an unpredictable time in American politics. That
means that opportunities can arise for each party in places you hadn`t
expected it.

TODD: That`s right.

PONNURU: And so, you`ve got to be prepared for that and be able to take
advantage of that.

PALMIERI: Ride the wave that`s there. Be ready to ride it.

TODD: I mean, you know, look, if Gianforte wins, he`s got one person to
thank, ironically. It`s Paul Ryan. No spending entity has been more
important here than Paul Ryan`s Pac in all of these races but particularly
this one. They went in early.

PALMIERI: Yes, not smart (ph).

JOHNSON: You know, I`m not sure how much I think that the spending
mattered. I mean, it`s a district that normally would be 20 points
Republican. I think you –

TODD: It defined Quist. It did – no, they went in and defined Quist
before the Democrats every did anything.

JOHNSON: Well, and as it turned out, I mean, I think you can say, who
would have thought that the banjo playing, you know, music artist would
have been the more normal candidate come Election Day? But he is – he is
so you may be right.

PALMIER: Yes, Gianforte is from New Jersey.

PONNURU: They defined –

PALMIERI: That`s all.

PONNURU: – they defined Quist before they realized who Gianforte was.

TODD: They should have been worried that in a state that Donald Trump won
by 20 points, that Gianforte lost a statewide race for governor on the same
day. That should hit big, maybe a yellow flag.

PALMIERI: Maybe not the best.

TODD: You know?

PALMIERI: Maybe not the best thing.

TODD: Just saying. All right. Eliana, Jennifer and Ramesh, you`re
sticking around.

Still ahead, President Trump calls on NATO nations to pay up. We`ll recap
the president`s first meeting with NATO leaders next.


Welcome back. Speaking at his first NATO summit, President Trump reiterated
one of his major campaign themes to the assembled leaders.


contribute their fair share and meet their financial obligations. But 23 of
the 28 member nations are still not paying what they should be paying and
what they are supposed to be paying for their defense. This is not fair to
the people and taxpayers of the United States.


TODD: Joining me now is former deputy national security adviser for
President George W. Bush and an NBC News senior national security analyst,
Juan Zarrate. Juan, good to see you, sir.


TODD: Look, a lot of people, not just reporting, but you can visually see
the discomfort there between President Trump and the rest of the NATO
allies. They were hoping that he would speak to them. It seemed to me,
Juan, that the president was speaking to America in that speech, not to
NATO allies. Fair to say?

ZARATE: I think that`s right. I think he wanted to demonstrate that he was
keeping to some of his commitments, certainly his rhetoric that he`s laid
out in the United States, and frankly was willing to confront NATO leaders

Something frankly that other U.S. leaders have been unwilling to do.
Frankly, Secretary Gates when he left his position at the Pentagon made
many of the same arguments but did so on his way out. This is a president
who is just starting his relationship with NATO and with these leaders.

He is going to have to see them again, deal with them again, and they did
look a little bit uncomfortable. But he was very clear in his message. He
wants more commitment from NATO allies in terms of budget and he didn`t
mince words.

TODD: You know these folks pretty well. You know these different
governments pretty well in considering your past life. Will they view this
– I mean, in some ways, candidate Trump`s rhetoric actually got these NATO
nations to get nervous. Oh, my God. No, no, no. Look at how much money
we`re spending.

They were being responsive to his criticism. If you`re now President Trump,
don`t you look at that and say I`ll keep pushing them? Will they continue
to respond that way? Or is there a point where you get diminishing returns
to this style of negotiating?

ZARATE: I think it really has helped that he has put this issue on the
table, been willing to articulate it pretty openly. But, I think you`re
right. At a certain point, you do get diminishing returns. You certainly
don`t want to embarrass your counterparts, you don`t want to embarrass
heads of state in this public forum.

That`s why you saw the body language or discomfort there among the
leaderships. I think you can take it to a certain point but you don`t want
to do it too much. And I think what you do at this point is to move those
discussions into DOD state department lanes and certainly into quiet
discussions, not in these open speeches in front of the leadership.

TODD: Given that you`re in London bureau, I want to ask you about the
allegation from Theresa May`s government, the U.K., that its intelligence
sharing with the United States that has contributed to all of these leaks
having to do with the, what happened in the Manchester bombing, the cell,
who is responsible, different things like that. Number one, is that a fair
charge by Theresa May? Is it truly American leaks? And number two, how big
of a problem is this?

ZARATE: Well, the British are incredibly emotional about the attack. I
think we have to be incredibly sensitive about this. And I do think they`re
angry. They`re angry with the perception that there are leaks coming out of
the United States.

Perhaps the law enforcement community, the intelligence community. It is
not clear yet. But certainly there is a lot of raw emotion here. And I
think on the U.S. side, there has to be a clear recognition that not only
are the British in the lead here, but the British authorities are trying to
run down very real leads.

You can feel the tension. We`re not in lock down mode here in London, but
you can sense that there are some urgency here. I think anything that is
done to jeopardize or compromise that investigation, to understand where
there are networks or leaks, excuse me, networks or threats coming to the
British people, that will be taken very seriously, and that`s why you`ve
seen Theresa May and others react as they have.

TODD: All right. Juan Zarate, I`m going to leave it there. Juan, as always,
thank you, sir. Appreciate your expertise.

ZARATE: Thank you, Chuck.

TODD: All right. Up next, did the FBI director get duped? New information
about a possible dubious document that could have influenced Jim Comey`s
decision on the Clinton case.



JAMES COMEY, FORMER DIRECTOR OF FBI: The capper was, I`m not picking on the
attorney general, Loretta Lynch, who I like very much, but her meeting with
President Clinton on that airplane was the capper for me. And I then said,
`You know what? The department cannot, by itself, credibly end this.`” That
was a hard call for me to make, to call the attorney general that morning
and say I`m about to do a press conference, I`m not going to tell you what
I`m going to say.


TODD: It turns out when Director Comey used the word “capper,” that was an
incredibly important code word then. That was James Comey earlier this
month, explaining why he made the decision last summer to announce that the
FBI was closing its case on Hillary Clinton`s emails and that the bureau
was not recommending charges and they were going to do this without
informing the attorney general.

Among all of the Russia-related stories this week was one published in “The
Washington Post” that alleges a quote, dubious Russian intelligence
document purportedly claiming there was some kind of understanding between
Clinton`s campaign and the Justice Department headed by Loretta Lynch that
somehow played a role in Comey`s move that day.

“The Washington Post” reported current and former officials have said that
document played a significant role in the July decision by then FBI
Director James Comey to announce on his own without the Justice Department
involvement that the investigation was over. But according to the FBI`s own
assessment, the document was bad intelligence, and according to people
familiar with its contents, possibly even a fake sent to confuse the

We should note this though. We at NBC News have confirmed the existence of
this document and that it was a factor in Comey`s decision. There`s been no
confirmation that was fake. Joining me now is NBC News` intelligence
national security reporter Ken Dilanian. Capper here. He said that was the
capper here. Now we can understand what he meant by capper.


TODD: Which was Loretta Lynch on the tarmac. It wasn`t the only reason why
he did this. This memo seemed to indicate that there was – that one
political operative indicated that they got some assurance from Loretta
Lynch that don`t worry, this Clinton email thing isn`t going to get any
more than it is. Is it true or not?

DILANIAN: We don`t know if it is true. It is incredible if true. Here`s
what we know is true. This memo exists and that it was a factor in Comey`s
decision. We know this from a source close to Comey. So it`s incredible to
me if it was a factor, did he not go to the attorney general? I mean, it
essentially alleges a corruption of sorts, that she was willing to go easy
on Clinton, right?

TODD: Ken, it seems to me there are only two possible explanations. There
are only two things here and neither are good explanations for the FBI.
Either, Director Comey got duped, the FBI has been duped by a hoax, like
fake news, voters are getting duped by fake news. This is a fake


TODD: And that`s scary of how sophisticated they are. That would be –
that`s problem one. Or problem two is, he has an issue with the attornry
and he doesn`t go to anybody about it. So that`s what sort of – something
doesn`t, there`s something missing in this story and clearly, Comey`s folks
are not confirming or denying whether this memo is real or not. There seems
to be something missing here.

DILANIAN: And that`s why critics are accusing the FBI of reversed
engineering in this very controversial decision, right? And it goes back to
what we learned this week is that we learned a lot more about what the
intelligence community and the FBI knew about potential Russia collusion
with Trump campaign before the election. And we knew they weren`t talking
about any of that, but they were talking about the Clinton email

TODD: It seems the implication was that Comey`s motivation in doing this
was he was worried that if Loretta Lynch announce the no charges, that the
Russia would release this document or release this series of emails. We now
have plenty of people who are also saying they had these conversations. So
it seems, according to the post reporting, that there is something
questionable about this intelligence.

DILANIAN: It does. I spoke to somebody who said, “Whether the memo was
false or true, it would have been devastating to leak.” And that does seem
correct, right?

TODD: In either way. As fake. We know a third of the country might believe

DILANIAN: Exactly. Exactly. But, I mean, maybe it would have taken a week
for people to realize it wasn`t true. So, it boggles the mind, really does.

TODD: Does this impact, do we think now that Comey will have second
thoughts about doing a public testimony? Or does he now hold off? Because
this memo is such now an issue.

DILANIAN: The people I`m talking too close to Comey say he still very much
wants to testify publicly. They say the biggest mitigating factor there is
what Bob Mueller wants to do. If Bob Mueller is investigating obstruction
of justice or what the president said to Comey, he may now want Comey to
tell his story publicly. But I believe Comey badly wants to do that.

TODD: All right. Ken Dilanian, our national security investigative
reporter. Good to see you.

DILANIAN: Thank you.

TODD: Thank you, sir. Republican Senator Bob Corker will join me this
Sunday on “Meet the Press” to discuss the latest on the senate`s Russia
investigation. After the break, why I am so obsessed about what happened in
Montana yesterday and Washington today.


TODD: Welcome back. Tonight, I`m obsessed, really obsessed with what
happened in Montana last night and the creeping sense that journalists are
on fair game not just for verbal abuse but physical assaults as well. Yes,
President Trump and his conservative (inaudible) are partly responsible for
this reprehensible trend. But let`s not pretend they started it. This is a
cancer half a century in the making.

President Nixon unleashed his vice president, Spiro Agnew, on reporters
almost 50 years ago. Agnew famously called reporters nattering nabobs of
negativism. That was of course speechwriter William Safire`s phrase. And
(inaudible), that one came from Patrick Buchanan (ph). These days, those
clever alliterations seem quaint. We`ve now moved from blame America first
to blame the media first.

It matters when candidate Trump encourages supporters to beat up
protesters. It matters when another Nixon (inaudible) uses the appearance
of journalism as a vehicle to attack journalism. It matters when so many
members of the president`s own party can`t bring themselves to condemn the
condemnable. Can`t bring themselves to criticize the man running to be one
of their colleagues for assaulting a reporter.

Actually a fellow American. Can`t bring themselves to find a response
beyond simply blaming the left or coming up with mythology about the media.
You want to rage against the so-called liberal media? Fine. You want to
send a juvenile tweet? Go right ahead. Let`s at least draw the line against
physical violence and even the threat of physical violence.

Look, the media is not blameless in creating our polarized environment, but
there are plenty of elected officials and paid political consultants who
are way too eager to exploit misplaced anger out there to make the media
look bad. I`ve been looking in the mirror and plenty of my colleagues have
been looking at the mirror at our coverage. But elected officials and paid
political folks, particularly on the right these days, you look in the
mirror too.

Greg Gianforte`s attack last night is a dangerous moment, a milestone in a
war against Fox and the people who report them. But even more toxic is the
conspiracy of silence among those who should know better.


TODD: Time for “The Lid.” Eliana Johnson, Jennifer Palmieri, Ramesh
Ponnuru. Ms. Palmieri, I know you probably have a lot of thoughts on this
report out of “The Washington Post.”

something I`ve given a lot of thoughts.

TODD: I have a feeling you have. Look, I go to the larger question here.
Neither outcome seems good here, whether the memo is real or not. Either
the FBI was duped by a hoax.


TODD: Or James Comey didn`t seem to go – raise enough alarm bells that he
thought Loretta Lynch was compromised. There`s no good answer here.

PALMIERI: Right. First of all, I think it is a hoax. It`s ridiculous to
think that Amanda Renteria got an okay from Loretta Lynch. Amanda Renteria,
you know, a California political person, she won`t know Loretta Lynch. That
is a laughable thing.

TODD: I would hope that the political director of Hillary Clinton`s
campaign didn`t know who Loretta Lynch was.

PALMIERI: Doesn`t know her, not know her. Anyway, that is ridiculous and
bizarre that they would come up with that. But I think the bigger problem
for Comey is that he forgot he was the FBI director. He is not the deputy
attorney general. He`s not part of the Justice Department. His job was to
do the job of the FBI director. He always would say, I make my decision and
I don`t worry about consequences. And that is a lie.

The guy over thinks consequence of his decisions. Are you supposed to make
a decision based on the facts that he has before them and let the chips
fall where they may? He was doing the job not just of the FBI director, but
like, you know, at one point he was the deputy attorney general for Bush.

I think he still thought he was the deputy attorney general. It is not his
job to worry about the attorney general or to worry about whether or not
his investigation was going to look – was going to look as if it had been
influenced by the attorney general. That`s the attorney general`s problem.

TODD: Ramesh? It does seem as if to take on Jen`s point, he took on the
burden of being the ombudsman for all of Washington apparently.


MAGAZINE: Look, I can`t disagree with that. I do think that the parties and
the voters put him in an extremely difficult set of situations.

TODD: Totally agree.

PONNURU: Which it was very hard to navigate. But I don`t think looking back
on it, you can say that the decisions were the correct ones. And I don`t
think it was just this. I think there were a series of them.

TODD: Eliana?

and I don`t think that anybody can look back and think that, you know, Bob
Mueller got in some hot water with the Bush administration several times,
two threatened resignations that were reported at the time. Comey seems to
have operated a little bit differently, and it is, you know, looking back,
I think with a very careful, clear regard for his reputation. And I think
that`s what there are some objections too.

PALMIERI: I thought it was a bad choice.

TODD: Well, what do you mean?

PALMIERI: You know, he was lauded on the left, right, because we all knew
about the great story about him and John Ashcroft`s hospital room and how
he defied the White House counsel.

TODD: You think President Obama made a mistake?

PALMIERI: Yeah. Why do we know that story? We know that is true. He made
sure the press knew about it. That tells you the back guy is more
interested in his own reputation than doing the job that was put before

TODD: I believe Donald Trump called him a grandstander. It sounds like
(inaudible). I believe you.

PALMIERI: I believe our president is right.

TODD: I was just going to frame that quote for folks, Jennifer Palmieri.

JOHNSON: And I think that the ex post facto emergence of these memos, if he
had a problem with what the president was doing, we should have known about
it at the time. That also seems to me a reputation preserving and, you
know, guarding.

PONNURU: But I think he was also trying to guard the institution of the
FBI, whether or not he made the right decision about how to do that.

TODD: I think it was more than FBI, I think he was worried about the
institution of the Justice Department. He was concerned about – that the
Russians would leak all of this, true or not, and that the pure existence
of it would call into question the legitimacy of the Justice Department.

PONNURU: I don`t think it`s just his own reputation that he was concerned

TODD: Right, I agree with Ramesh there. I don`t think it`s bigger than

PALMIERI: Okay, I`ll accept that, but it`s still not his job. Whatever fake
emails that the Russians cooked up that they based decisions on.

TODD: Eliana, this means – I mean, congress really is going to want –
there`s going to be a lot of Comey memos they`re going to want to get their
hands on, Clinton-related and Russia-related.

JOHNSON: I think more and more it`s very clear that this is going to be a
year`s long investigation. It may consume Trump`s entire term, whether it`s
his first term, we don`t know. But the White House better prepare for this
and, you know, figure out a way to seal this off and direct inquiry
somewhere specific.

TODD: Well, we shall see that. There is a larger conversation about whether
the president has the ability to compartmentalize.


TODD: Eliana, Jennifer, Ramesh, thank you. After the break, why a new
bipartisan senate measure probably won`t be getting bipartisan support.


TODD: In case you missed it, because guess what, pretty much everyone did.
Two senators from different parties introduced a bipartisan measure today,
a pretty important one. Rarely happens, right? But no one cares that it
really happened. Republican Senator Jeff Flake of Arizona and Democratic
Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia proposed a new authorization of military
force or what we`ve been calling an AUMF.

It would replace the one that has been in place since 2001 that authorized
force, essentially a military campaign, against those responsible for 9/11.
The replacement AUMF would authorize force against ISIS, Al Qaeda, and
Taliban, three groups that were never named in the first AUMF. And it would
give congress more oversight authority. Folks, there have been bipartisan
call for a new AUMF for years and individual members of congress always say
they want to have more accountability on these things.

But that doesn`t mean this bill has a one iota chance of passing or even
making it to the floor for a vote. The reason? The leaders, they don`t want
to force their members to defend a war vote, period. In case you missed it,
political expediency wins out every time. That`s all for tonight. Former
CIA Director Leon Panetta will be my guest tomorrow right here on “MTP
Daily.” Coming up next, we got “For the Record” with Greta. It starts right
now. My good friend, Stephanie Ruhle.


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