Show: MTP DAILY Date: September 22, 2016 Guest: Dimitri Roberts, Michael Eric Dyson, Matt Bai, April Ryan, Michael D`Antonio, Maria Teresa Kumar, Alfonso Aguilar
CHUCK TODD, HOST: Good Thursday evening. I`m Chuck Todd here in Washington. And welcome to MTP DAILY.
We begin tonight with what`s become sadly a familiar scene these days. Two men of color, Keith Scott of North Carolina and Terence Crutcher of Oklahoma, lost their lives at the hands of police this week. Moments ago, the Tulsa District Attorney filed first-degree manslaughter charges against the officer who shot Terence Crutcher.
And the NBC affiliate in Charlotte, WCNC, is reporting that according to one of their sources, a man that was shot during last night`s protest there when they turned violent, that person has died. Governor McCrory has called out the National Guard and the city of Charlotte is currently under a state of emergency.
And the country is once again asking questions that no one seems to be able to have any answers for. Why does this keep happening and can there be anything done to stop it to the point where trust can be rebuilt between law enforcement and African-Americans?
This hour, protestors are expected to gather again in Charlotte, North Carolina. Both presidential candidates have condemned the shootings. But they`ve had very different views on how to go about community policing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We are safer when communities respect the police and police respect communities. I`ve also been privileged to spend a lot of time with mothers who`ve lost children and young people who feel that as far as their country is concerned, their lives seem disposable. We`ve got to do better.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We are supposed to be the world`s leader. How can we lead when we can`t even control our own cities? Look at the example that we had in New York of Mayor Rudy Giuliani. The policies he put into place ultimately brought down crime by 76% and murder in New York by 84%.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: One policy that Donald Trump is pointing to is the controversial stop-and-frisk policy that Trump himself has long been in favor of and so is Rudy Giuliani. But it was a major source of tension between the police and African-American residents in New York City. Trump yesterday proposed reviving the polarizing practice. He tried to clarify his intentions this morning in an interview with Fox News.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Rudy Giuliani did a great job as Mayor. And they really straightened things out with stop-and-frisk. But stop-and-frisk worked. We had tremendous numbers of shootings. Now, Chicago is out of control. And I was really referring to Chicago with stop-and-frisk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: The Attorney General Loretta Lynch reacted as well today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LORETTA LYNCH, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: The tragic events in Charlotte and in Tulsa, Oklahoma earlier this week once again have underscored the divisions that persist between law enforcement officers and the communities that we serve, particularly communities of color. Too many times we`ve allowed ourselves to be pulled down the easy path of blame and accusation rather than the harder path of empathy and understanding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: Now, the issue of bias is now being acknowledged by a majority of Americans, white and black. An NBC News|SurveyMonkey online poll we conducted in July show that 77% of all registered voters said there is a serious problem with racial discrimination against blacks in this country.
But that is where consensus ends. These voters were split on whether or not the use of deadly force by police was affected by race. Now President Obama launched a Task Force on 21st Century Policing in 2014. But how far can progress go when there are just simply fundamental disagreements on where the problems exist?
The roadblock to healing and the deep-rooted mistrust isn`t going to go away with a magic wand. Images of clashes with the police, they become more vivid, more frequent, and they`re more accessible than ever, thanks to technology. And it`s becoming part of an American consciousness.
And these images of cops and these images of African-Americans holding up their hands and not being threatening, it is becoming engrained. Think of the firehoses and dogs on protesters that were used in the 1960s. The images are very vivid and it`s clearly something that the entire country believes is unacceptable.
But why hasn`t all this passion turned into a series of real solutions? Joining me now with some analysis, Dimitri Roberts, he`s a former Chicago police officer; and Georgetown Professor, Michael Eric Dyson, as well. Mr. Roberts, let me start with you.
It seems as if, on one hand, there is plenty of attention to this problem. But the more attention that has been brought to it -- this isn`t a case where the more attention has mean it has focused everybody on finding the right solution. We seem to be struggling to find any solution.
DIMITRI ROBERTS, FORMER CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER: Well, it`s my opinion that the reason we struggle to find solutions is because folks feel like they need to be on one side of this issue or the other. Just because someone advocates for black lives matter doesn`t mean they`re anti-police. And just because somebody says they`re pro-police doesn`t mean they are anti- anything else.
My point has always been what can we unify behind? We can agree to a couple of things. Nobody else wants to see anybody killed. And, at the end of the day, we all believe the same color. And if we can use those points as a point for unification and a way to build a bridge, now we have a real opportunity to stand behind some sustainable solutions.
TODD: Michael, it does feel as if there is -- we have these -- I mean think about the last two years. You and I`ve had this conversation multiple times. And we`ve seen these ebbs-and-flows. And there`s a lot of concentration on we`ve got to solve this problem. We`ve got to solve this problem. Then we go a couple of months without an incident. And then bang, it comes back. And there just seems to be no momentum here.
MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY SOCIOLOGY PROFESSOR: Yes. And, look, I respect my articulate colleague there on a very powerful point, but I`m sorry. We are beyond the point of drawing on equivalence between police people who show up armed with the force and authority of the state and a gun and a badge and citizens who are unarmed and who don`t have that authority.
This is not a matter of equivalency. This is a greater responsibility attached to those who are sworn to uphold the law to serve and protect. And somehow what we have done is failed to impress upon them that the mere presence of an African-American person does not automatically constitute a threat.
We are dealing with implicit bias. Even if a black cop shoots a black person, that implicit bias is operating in most of our consciousness. So the point is that we`ve got to get to a point where we`re able to tell the truth. Most of Americans understand that racial discrimination against African-American people is real.
What we have to do on the other hand is figure out a way to train these police not to react so violently and viciously. Look, you can be a white guy with a cleaver, the police will arrest you. You can be a terrorist in a shootout the police will preserve your life. You can be a guy who kills nine people in a church and they will retrieve you without incident.
Why isn`t that -- African-American people unarmed for the most part have a real trouble with the police of being able to be securely treated and treated, I think, with a deep and profound respect. Until we address that, we`re going to have this again and again.
TODD: Mr. Roberts, that seems to be -- that`s what I hear the most from African-American activists on this is that last part of what Michael Eric Dyson just said. Which is why is it -- and we just had an example now. You brought up the terrorist suspect currently in New Jersey right now. He`s alive. And that`s what eats at this more than anything.
ROBERTS: It`s a lack of cultural competency in the communities for which police officers are going to serve. And to Michael`s point, I was a former Chicago police officer who worked in some of the toughest neighborhoods in our country. But before that, I was a black man that also got beat up by white cops. So I get both sides of these issues. My point has always been, as it continues to be, is that we have to address the cultural differences.
There is a law enforcement problem with culture in this country. And until we address that law enforcement culture issue and merge that with cultural competency around the communities for which those officers are going to work in, we`re going to continue to see these situations escalate to violence and further more killing of black and brown members of communities. Cultural competency is the way to get these things resolved and resolved in a very quick manner.
TODD: Michael, it does seem as if there is plenty of jurisdictions that have put in some reforms where you`ve seen positive results. The tragedy in Dallas that took place a couple months ago, it was an extra tragedy for a lot of people down there because you had a police chief that instituted some new reforms that were making real progress.
DYSON: Yes. There`s no question about that. Look, I spoke to that police department about six to eight months before they endured that horrible tragedy that they experienced. And let me tell you something, Chuck, that`s not often spoken about, as Dimitri has just indicated.
When I spoke to many of those African-American sergeants and lieutenants and captains, you know what they told me? Out of uniform, we are just as afraid of white cops as you are, number one. Number two, they are the immediate and first recipients of racial discrimination.
We forget that there are many bigoted people on police forces that mistreat fellow officers before they go into the larger world and create mayhem for other people. So we`re not being honest about the culture of complicity with the police. Not simply in its hair trigger reaction to black and brown people but to the very violent racism that operates even within police forces themselves.
So you`re right. There are many things that can be done and instituted, but unless we`re willing to say them straightforwardly and be open and honest, unless the Department of Justice is willing to say that and the President too, we won`t make much progress.
TODD: Mr. Roberts, why hasn`t there been an accepted best practices adopted by not just big police forces? I feel as if the big city police forces, for the most part, they were the first ones that made it where the police force looked like the community they were policing. But we also seem to have an issue with a lot of suburban police forces where maybe perhaps the training is less rigorous. How do we make this where you up the training across the board?
ROBERTS: Well, it has to be holistic approach to these issues: diversity, inclusion and emersion, training, workshops and conversations, where you bring community members into trained law enforcement officers around their cultural differences.
When you have a fifth grader, a high school student as well as a community member, young adult millennial, that goes into the police academy and stands before them and tells their story and then tells their expectations of their police officers that have come into serve their communities, give them that training, give them that cultural awareness and sensitivity.
You`re going to see police officers who join the Police Department to make a difference. You`re going to see them engaging those communities much differently. Again, I`m not saying that biases aren`t at play here. But the solution behind getting past those biases is to build the cultural competencies necessary both in our police agencies as well as in our communities.
DYSON: But, Dimitri, in Charlotte itself, they have a black police captain. They have the black policeman who shot this young man and the young man who was shot was black. So I am saying that some are going to argue, look, there is enough competency there, but the implicit bias that operates that victimizes not only predominant members of the dominant culture, but also people who are African-American and Latino themselves. All of us have to address the implicit bias that the innocent makes us believe that a black person or brown person is more likely to commit a crime than anybody else.
ROBERTS: Well, Eric, culture doesn`t have a color. So regardless of what color those officers are, if they`re standing behind antiquated policies that doesn`t touch the community and doesn`t address the real cultural issues between the law enforcement agencies and the communities, we`re going to continue to see these issues regardless of what color the officers are, because, at the end of the day, those officers all wear the same color unified. And that`s the color blue.
TODD: All right, guys. I`m going to --
DYSON: Right. But I am saying the cultural makes the difference in terms of -- the people who are affected -- white communities in a culture are not being targeted in the same way that African-American and Latino ones are. But I know we`ll take that conversation up.
TODD: I was just going to say I`m going to let you guys pause this conversation. I will pick it up later in the show. Dimitri Roberts and Michael Eric Dyson, thank you both for coming on and sharing your views. Joining me now on the panel, Matt Bai, National Political Columnist for Yahoo! News; April Ryan of American Urban Radio Networks; and NBC Senior Political Reporter, Perry Bacon.
Perry, you and I had that quick conversation before the show started that it feels as if all the politicians have run out of things to say. All the people that we turn to, to come up with some unifying solution, they`ve all run out of things to say.
PERRY BACON JR., NBC NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: This is a really hard issue. We were two years into addressing -- after Ferguson, two years into addressing a problem that had decades to develop. Distrusting blacks and the police has been longstanding and we`ve got things on video now. There are more DOJs moving faster. Remember, Michael (INAUDIBLE) awareness is higher than ever.
TODD: I was just saying that is a form of progress here on this issue. I mean there is white awareness now of this issue. There used to not be white awareness.
BACON: And the data says a lot of more white awareness, particularly among youths. So you have seen that in young people particularly. So I do think we`re overly annalistic about this. I think there have been some changes. Tulsa, the officer has already been accused of -- I`m sorry, indicted for manslaughter. In North Carolina, DOJ is already there. So I do think things are happening faster.
TODD: April, it just seems as if -- I can`t imagine that it`s going to be - - all of a sudden everybody says, okay. We finally have -- we know there might be some more bad apples. But, for the most part, we`re finding a solution. I can`t imagine we`re going to get to that point in the next couple years. It just doesn`t feel that way.
APRIL RYAN, AMERICAN URBAN RADIO NETWORKS WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: It`s an evolution for everything. You hit the nail squarely when you said that white people are now saying it. Before, people thought it was myth and conjecture that African-Americans were talking about it, but now that component, that video piece, those smartphones, the battery life of these phones to be able to film these things, and you see the truth.
And what happened in Tulsa was real. To hear someone say, yeah, he`s a bad dude. That, within itself -- you can have all the video that you want, but there`s a heart issue there. It`s about legislation. You can legislate. You can have all the pattern and practice, results and findings and change, but if the heart is not lined up, there is something wrong. There is legislation and then there`s the heart.
TODD: Matt, you were telling me about how you`ve done ride-alongs.
MATT BAI, YAHOO! NEWS NATIONAL POLITICAL COLUMNIST: Yes. I covered law enforcement for a while before I ever --
TODD: And it struck me as I was processing what you were telling me, there are some police officers. If all you`re doing is working in the highest crime areas, you`re always going to feel as if you`re under siege all the time. So you almost wonder, it`s not just the training, but do the cops themselves need to not -- almost need to rotate? I don`t know. Is there a rotation? Because you do feel there is a hardening here, a belief of what you`re dealing with.
BAI: I mean I think the first thing you have to acknowledge in a sense, maybe not the first thing, but you have to acknowledge, it`s not simply a racial bias issues. We see you have black officers shooting black perpetrators. And you have black victims and black perpetrators.
I think one of the things you have to consider is that this comes from a place of fear and bad training and incompetence. And that`s something politicians can`t fix that, right? Law enforcement has to fix that through training and --
TODD: I know. No, no, I don`t want you to --
RYAN: I have to respectfully disagree. Let`s go back to a Washington standard, The Washington Post. They have data from last year and they tabulated all the people who were killed in police custody or police- involved deaths last year. And the vast majority of those who died were African-American and they were not at the hands of black police officers.
I mean, what do you say to what happened at Tulsa with the gentleman in the helicopter? I don`t even want to call him a gentleman. The man in the helicopter, the officer in the helicopter had to say. That was a white man saying this about an African-American. And, unfortunately, that is the pervasive thought.
BAI: April, I`m sorry. It is not denying there is a racial component here to say but there is also complexity involved.
RYAN: Oh, there`s complexity and complexion.
BAI: And I agree with what you. And I agree with particularly what you said about the role of technology because, as you said, this is a new, right. Anybody who has covered crime knows this went on and it disproportionately affected African-Americans and minorities.
What we`re seeing -- and it is a positive development in a sense if you really want to twist around and look at it that way -- is that now people are held accountable. The technology as it`s changing so many facets of that --
RYAN: But I am not going to say this. New York and Baltimore--
BAI: But you can`t add, April. So I think technology is part of what brings it to service and it`s also part of the solution. I think the body cameras they are holding officers accountable on the ground while they`re there as part of the solution.
RYAN: But they`re not required by a police to be worn.
BAI: Not right now but that`s what --
TODD: No. And this is what I think is where this becomes a national -- a policy thing, because how do we level off -- I mean I`m sorry, now granted these were a big city, but there have been I feel like more incidents at our suburban police departments. And we know that if you can`t get into the big city one, sometimes it`s easier to become a cop in a smaller town.
BACON: And that`s not new either. That is just as visible. It`s that policing is not national. Policing is very local, very significant.
TODD: And it should be.
BACON: And, well, I`m not sure about that. Maybe if we had more national standards in terms of use of force standards, required implicit bias training -- Hillary has talked about some of this stuff. This is a political discussion we`re having, though.
TODD: Okay. And we`re going to have a little bit more of this conversation but I do need to sneak in a break. So you guys are sticking around. Coming up, we`re going to delve into the presidential race a little bit. Trump`s money trouble. The campaign is having a tough time refuting reports about the Trump Foundation`s spending habits. Stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TODD: Welcome back. There is a slew of new polls from the battleground states today. So let`s quickly tick through them. Georgia, Quinnipiac, they have Trump leading Clinton by seven points. Outside of their margin of error on that one, Georgia is one of those states Clinton was hoping that she could flip and make a little more competitive. Right now, though, Trump has a durable lead.
Iowa, Trump on top, also seven points, plus seven in another Fox News poll as well. Monmouth poll out last week had Trump up eight points, maybe the most likely Obama state for Trump to take this time around. Iowa has been a real problem for Clinton.
Different story in Colorado, Clinton with a narrow 44/42 lead over Trump. Gary Johnson taking 10% of the vote out there, so always over polling in the West. Clinton was up 10 points in this Quinnipiac poll last month.
A couple of polls out of Virginia both showing Clinton out ahead six points for Quinnipiac and a Roanoke poll has Clinton up seven. Clinton has been leading or virtually tied in every Virginia poll over the last couple of months. And, of course, she is no longer advertising in Virginia.
Then let`s go to North Carolina. New York Times/Siena poll has the race tied between Trump and Clinton at 41. North Carolina is essentially a must- win for Trump at this point. There is no path for him without North Carolina.
Finally, there is Florida. Suffolk University has the race in a virtual tie with Trump up a point. Average of recent Florida polls has Clinton and Trump in an absolute dead heat. Anyway, up next, a look into the Trump Foundation and Donald Trump`s history of spending other people`s money. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TODD: Just four days to the first presidential debate and the Trump campaign is facing some serious new questions about their candidate`s charity and business dealings. The Washington Post recently uncovered tax filings revealing that Trump used his charity, which is funded right now with mostly other people`s money, to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in Trump Inc. legal settlements.
Some tax experts call that a blatant violation of IRS laws against what`s called self-dealing. NBC News has confirmed the key details of all of this story. And the Trump campaign is responding, although they seem a bit stumped as to how to respond.
First came a campaign statement saying that The Washington Post story was wrong and peppered with inaccuracies, but the campaign did not correct a single fact in the story. And then we heard from Mike Pence on the same story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: There is a number of factual errors in that story.
BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC ANCHOR: Do you know what the factual errors are that the campaign is alleging in The Washington Post story?
PENCE: Well, I think, the foundation will be able to lay those out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: Well, the foundation has not yet laid those out, but we have heard from Trump on this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could you explain to people why you may have used some charitable donations for some personal uses?
TRUMP: Yes. Well, the foundation is really rare. It gives money to that. It`s really been doing a good job. And I think we`ve put that to sleep just by putting out the last report.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: We`re not sure what report Trump is referring to. We did ask the campaign, have not heard back on this one. The story fits what appears to be a pattern for Trump. It`s not just his charity. Trump`s campaign, which solicits funds from a variety of donors, has made millions in payments to Trump Inc. for an array of goods and services, everything front renting Trump Tower to food at Trump restaurants.
This appears to be how Trump does business whether it`s a campaign, a charity or a real estate company profiting off of millions in publicly financed tax breaks and grants. And it`s also a potentially dangerous mix of politics and profits when you`re in the midst of running for President and it raises only more questions with fewer answers.
I`m joined now by Pulitzer Prize-winning author and journalist, Michael D`Antonio who, you could say, wrote the book on Trump. He`s the author of "Never Enough: Donald Trump and the Pursuit of Success". Mr. D`Antonio, welcome back to the show.
MICHAEL D`ANTONIO, AUTHOR & TRUMP BIOGRAPHER: Hi, Chuck.
TODD: Well, I want to start with the foundation story. Because, while it was a new allegation against him that he used the foundation money to pay a Trump Inc. legal settlement, which is potentially totally illegal, unless he comes up with a way of reimbursing his foundation, it seemed to me it fit a familiar pattern of his that he is, in some ways, very shrewd about using as little of his own money as possible.
D`ANTONIO: Well, he is. And I think the bottom-line for Donald has always been his bottom-line. So profit is his measure of what is right or wrong. This guy doesn`t have a moral measure for his activities. And he doesn`t really think much about the ethics of something.
If he can declare bankruptcy four times and leave his creditors in the lurch, if he can walk away from small businesspeople in Atlantic City and not pay them what they`re due, he`ll do it because the benefit accrues to him. One of the funny elements of this charity case is that he built this giant flagpole in Palm Beach where it was about 100 feet too high and against the city code. And he had to pay a fine for doing this.
And I actually think this is a politically motivated thought that he had. It was, well, let me be the guy who puts up the American flag and then gets in trouble and then fights the battled government about the American flag. And then when I have to pay a fine, I`ll have my charity pay for me. I mean this is just ridiculous. But he gets away with it with the voters who support him because they like the fact that he`s so clever.
TODD: Well, I was just going to say. And he brags about it. I mean, this was a quote in Fortune magazine in 2000. He said it`s very possible I could be the first presidential candidate to run and make money on it. It`s a braggadocios thing to say. And I don`t think he`s making money on this campaign but he`s definitely making sure he`s not spending that much money.
D`ANTONIO: Well, right. He actually had a pseudo campaign for President in 1987, before he came out with The Art of the Deal. And that was one of the first instances where, I think, somebody did make money by pretending to run for President because he generated all sorts of free publicity by jetting up to New Hampshire and giving a speech.
So he could say, well, look, I`m running for President, come cover me. And, by the way, I`ve got this new book coming out. And before you know it, he`s got a giant bestseller and he never ran for President in the end after all.
TODD: Well, he`s not alone on that front. There are plenty of people that have run for President, used their loss at President to become suddenly a vacuum of speaking fees and getting TV shows and things like that. When I go to this because there`s other part that makes me more curious about the idea of using other people`s money is all the tax breaks. How important has tax breaks been to building his financial empire?
D`ANTONIO: Oh, he`s had almost a $1 billion in special tax breaks. So it`s not unusual for real estate developers in big cities to take advantage of special tax breaks to get their projects built. But he`s been the champion of this. And he learned it from his dad. And he`s been very successful at it. So you and I have financed Donald Trump`s success.
TODD: All right. Michael D`Antonio, who, like we said, literally wrote the book on Trump. Always a pleasure, sir. Thanks very much.
D`ANTONIO: Thanks, Chuck.
TODD: Still ahead, Hillary Clinton expands her lead over Donald Trump with one key voting group. We`ve got new inside into how Latino voters are making their pick for President. The question is can Hillary Clinton win it by a big enough margin to make up for any enthusiasm problems in other parts of a coalition? Stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUCK TODD, MSNBC: Can Hillary Clinton win by a big enough margin to make up for any enthusiasm problems in other parts of her coalition? Stay tuned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Lots more ahead on MTP Daily including an exclusive first look at a Telemundo/NBC/Wall Street Journal Latino oversample. But first, here`s Hampton Pearson with the CNBC Market Wrap.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
HAMPTON PEARSON, CNBC: Thanks, Chuck. Stocks closed higher today. The Dow rose 98 points, the S&P up by 14, the Nasdaq gaining 44 points.
U.S. jobless claims dropped to 252,000, according to the Labor Department. That`s the lowest level since July. Economists were expecting a number closer to 260,000.
And a surprise setback in the housing sector. Sales of existing homes fell nearly one percent in August. A lack of available homes on the market is pushing prices out of reach of a lot of would-be home buyers.
That`s it from CNBC, first in business worldwide.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
TODD: Welcome back to MTP Daily. Last night we brought you our brand new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll numbers, and tonight we have more from that poll. And there`s a lot more good news here for Hillary Clinton in our new Latino oversample with our friends at Telemundo. We make sure to have a larger sample of Hispanics overall so we can have a better understanding of the Latino vote rather than just dealing with the small sample that you sometimes get in a regular national poll.
So, in our four-way matchup, just among Latinos --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Clinton sits at 63 percent with registered Hispanic voters. Trump is 47 points behind her, sitting at just 16 percent. Gary Johnson, nine. Jill Stein at three. And those numbers are virtually unchanged when you cut it for likely voters.
And take a look at this. Clinton is even doing better with Latino voters than President Obama did around this same time in 2012. But, there is an enthusiasm gap among Latinos. Sixty percent of all voters say they are very interested in this election. That number among Latino voters is just 49%. And, among Latino voters under the age of 40, just 38 percent call themselves very interested in this election.
So there is a turnout scare here if you`re Hillary Clinton. The numbers look good on top --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
-- but will there be the raw vote there?
Let me bring in my guests to help break down this poll. Maria Teresa Kumar, president of Voto Latino, and an MSNBC contributor. And Alfonso Aguilar, president of the Latino Partnership for Conservative Principles.
No surprise, probably, at the numbers here. Anything jump out at you, Alfonso, as part of the overall? Or is it about what you thought?
ALFONSO AGUILAR: No, I mean in terms of Donald Trump, the numbers are terrible for him. But frankly I don`t think he cares. I think after that speech in Phoenix, we can all agree that he really doesn`t care about the Latino vote.
The question, and I think you alluded to it, is -- is there enough enthusiasm within the Latino community -- Latino voters -- in favor of Hillary Clinton? And I think the numbers actually lead us to question is there the enthusiasm? I mean, if you look at --
MARIA TERESA KUMAR: I think part of the challenge is two-fold. You`re seeing a generational divided when older Latinos who actually remember days of prosperity under Hillary Clinton, and you have the millennial generation. They don`t have that experience and they`re very much sold on Bernie Sanders.
So what the Hillary campaign needs to do is really reach out to them. And start talking about the policy issues.
TODD: Well it is interesting, what you`re bringing up. This is the one voting group -- and anything we`ve really found in the Obama coalition -- where she`s doing better than him, right? In every other case he does better than her.
His 2012 numbers are better here. But she right now is winning Latinos by 51 points. The exit polls in 2012, Obama won it by 44. Now, how much of this is really Donald Trump?
KUMAR: I think a lot of it has to do with Donald Trump. But part of it is the older generation, which I would actually say are the ones --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
-- that are planning on voting. They remember that history of prosperity. They were oftentimes first-time homebuyers. They were able to send their kids to college.
Again, the millennials are having that challenge. And Hillary`s challenge is to say, "Look, that platform that Bernie Sanders said, that he was going to do if he was in office, he would." If you actually look at the fact that Jill Stein and Gary Johnson are pulling numbers, I would venture to guess they`re pulling numbers from her, not from Donald Trump.
TODD: You know what`s interesting about those numbers, Alfonso, for Johnson and Stein, is that basically they were getting the same percentage of Latinos as they do among overall population. There was no difference.
AGUILAR: Right.
TODD: That there is really that same chunk of voters, clearly.
AGUILAR: Well I don`t think the Latino vote exists in a vacuum.
TODD: Yes.
AGUILAR: Obviously they care about the same issues that the general voter community. But I think three numbers are very interesting. I think when you do have the four candidates, Hillary Clinton goes out to 65 percent. There`s about 11 percent that are willing to vote for Gary Johnson and Jill Stein.
The other number is 57 percent of Latino voters see her -- have a positive perspective of Hillary Clinton. It`s not a super majority.
TODD: Right.
AGUILAR: And then finally, when you look at Latinos who think that they`re very interested in the election, only 49 percent of Latinos are interested. And of the Latino millennials, only 38 percent.
KUMAR: But that has a lot to do with the fact that -- and this was a recent poll that came out. Only 61 percent of registered Latino voters have been contacted by a political party.
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TODD: That`s what I wanted to ask you before. You`re basically jumping in on the topic that I want to do, which is -- but there`s been some criticism that the Clinton campaign has not done the outreach that is necessary to turn what is an anti-Trump vote right now into a pro-Clinton vote.
KUMAR: Well, and I think -- this is an opportunity -- and I keep saying -- we`re living a potential Pete Wilson moment, which basically solidified California back in `93, with the anti-Latino, anti-immigrant. And that`s the only reason why you have now in the state of California two top folks fighting for the Senate, right? That are Democrats.
They (INAUDIBLE) the exact same thing, but I think what they`ve done says that most political campaigns -- they only need that 51 plus one percent in order to win.
TODD: Right.
KUMAR: Instead of really using this opportunity to solidify the progressive movement. They`re just not doing that.
TODD: Alfonso, how do you -- you`re going to be part of this rebuilding the party, I assume, after this, for them.
AGUILAR: We`ll see what happens.
TODD: How do you prevent --
KUMAR: (INAUDIBLE) Libertarians.
TODD: How do you prevent this from becoming what she said, "a Pete Wilson moment"?
AGUILAR: Because I think you have to understand the Latino vote is not a monolithic vote. I think that --
TODD: It wasn`t a monolithic vote pre Pete Wilson.
AGUILAR: But you cannot --
TODD: And then it became one.
AGUILAR: But you cannot generalize and say, "What happened in California will happen at the national level." Remember, after Pete Wilson we had George W. Bush, who won in 2004 about 44 percent of the Latino voting. In Florida we won 55 percent of the Latino vote.
KUMAR: And the difference is that -- within the Latino community we`re no longer talking policy. What we`re talking about is kids coming home and basically saying, "My classmates are telling me that I`m going to get deported." It is a completely different calculus when you are knocking on someone`s door and saying, "I`m actually not going to make you (INAUDIBLE) stay."
AGUILAR: But immigration is not the top issue. It`s an important issue for the Latino community but it`s not a top issue.
KUMAR: No, but, it`s not at all.
AGUILAR: The other thing is -- let`s not ignore the polling that shows poll after poll that the majority of Latinos don`t identify as Democrats. They identify as independent.
KUMAR: Independent.
AGUILAR: Their knee jerk reaction is not, "I`m a Democrat." So there are many issues on which they don`t agree with the Democrats.
TODD: Right.
AGUILAR: I think that -- look, Donald Trump is having an impact and he`s having it right now in this election.
TODD: Yes.
AGUILAR: But if Republicans --
KUMAR: But he`s not having a conversation on policy issues. The reason that Latinos are not, you know, open and welcoming to Donald Trump, is basically he`s making their communities less safe, less comfortable.
AGUILAR: Right.
KUMAR: And as a parent, all of a sudden, if you can be third, fourth generation saying, "Wait a second. There`s a party that`s --"
AGUILAR: But my whole point is that if you have a Republican party and a Republican candidate, four years from now, that engages the Latino community, that shows up in the community and is constructive on immigration issues, they`re going to be competitive.
TODD: I guess, let me -- the last quick question to you, Alfonso, which is -- is this a four-year repair job? Eight years, 10 years after this?
AGUILAR: I frankly think --
TODD: What kind of damage do you think Trump has done?
AGUILAR: I think it`s momentary. It`s right now in this election. I think in four years from now, if you have a good candidate who engages the community, who`s constructive on immigration, we can be very competitive and can get to 40 percent or more. The Latino community is not monolithic.
TODD: You know where I last read that? It was in the RNC autopsy report.
AGUILAR: Well, they didn`t pay attention to it.
TODD: There you go. Maria and Alfonso, thank you both on that one.
Up next, will protests ramp up on the football field? Starting tonight and perhaps Sunday. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
As protests continue on the streets of Charlotte, in another police involved shooting. Stay tuned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Welcome back. Tonight I`m obsessed with football. Well, not just football actually, but the intersection of sports and politics. The biggest story in the country right now are the police shootings of African American men in Tulsa, Oklahoma and Charlotte, North Carolina. And the subsequent violent demonstration that took place in Charlotte last night. And the biggest sport in the country, of course, is NFL football. Put all of it together and you might have a combustible mix.
As you know by now, San Francisco 49`ers quarterback, Colin Kaepernick, has been at the forefront of protesting police treatment of people of color by refusing to stand during the national anthem. It began in the pre- season and soon other NFL players began to follow suit.
Then, this week we saw every member of the WNBA Indiana Fever take a knee during the national anthem last week. And then soccer player, Megan Rapinoe did the same at a game in Columbus.
But now with the events in Tulsa and Charlotte, don`t be surprised if the protest grows exponentially this week in the NFL. Perhaps starting tonight with the game between the New England Patriots and the Houston Texans, and on Sunday 14 games are scheduled. And there`s no telling how big the protests could be.
But keep in mind, if the demonstrations are big enough, there`ll be no avoiding the subject during the first presidential debate one day later. So fasten your seatbelts because what started out as a brave but lonely protest by what is now a backup quarterback could turn into the national event of the weekend by Sunday.
We`ll be right back.
Time now for "The Lid." The panel is back -- Matt Bai, April Ryan, Perry Bacon.
What`s been interesting is what normally would be a frozen presidential race right now -- because we`d be in the middle of debate prep, and there`s certainly -- you get some evidence that they are.
This issue is overshadowing debate prep, I think -- what`s going on in Charlotte and in Tulsa right now. And it`s filling the vacuum of the presidential race and making it all in one, I think.
PERRY BACON, NBC NEWS: And you have, I figured, because of what happened on Saturday and Sunday, the discussion for this week would be about terrorism. And instead we`ve already moved over to another discussion already. And one I would say where the candidates have very defined views, very different views.
And so Trump is kind of making it up. He was first stop and frisk. Now he`s stop and frisk in Chicago. He`s trying to figure out where exactly -- he has a general point of view on this. But the (INAUDIBLE) comments were unusual for Trump. They were unusually -- (INAUDIBLE) thought about the issue a little bit more. So he`s moving (INAUDIBLE).
TODD: Well it is interesting, April. He seems to be in almost conflict with himself. On one hand he`s getting strategy that says -- and I`m sure he`s getting advice that says, "Look you`ve got to soften your rhetoric. Soften your rhetoric." On the other hand, "tough on crime" has been a focal point of his candidacy.
APRIL RYAN: Yes, and going back to something, he is trying debate prep, from what I understand, as well as Hillary. But when it comes to this issue, we heard Donald Trump, the Donald Trump, the primary candidate Donald Trump, talk about supporting police --
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-- and if anyone went after police, there would be large punishments, stiff punishments against them. And it seemed more like an either/or scenario when he was talking, when he was the primary Donald Trump.
But now, it`s totally different. You know? To hear his rhetoric --
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-- talking about what happened in Tulsa and talking about how he did everything right. You know? The guy in Tulsa, he complied. He complied.
TODD: Right.
RYAN: And for Donald Trump to say normally he`s this guy who is about police. And not only that -- just a few weeks ago in Baltimore, he stood in front of the National Guard Association Convention, and he was talking about, "You have a friend in me."
And when you think about the National Guard, especially with this kind of a situation. They`re the ones who come in when there`s lawlessness.
So there has been a direct change in Donald Trump`s conversations over this issue in just the last couple of days.
TODD: And yet, Matt, you know, if you remember that convention speech, it was a law and order speech.
MATT BAI, YAHOO NEWS: Oh yes.
TODD: And that was --
BAI: It was a grim march to the barracks.
TODD: It was, and he was trying to use -- he was trying to sort of make sure that people saw the images of Baton Rouge. At the time, it was Baton Rouge --
BAI: Right.
TODD: And Dallas. And those were the images he wanted ingrained --
BAI: Right.
TODD: -- when you were listening. And it does seem as if you can tell --
BAI: Yes.
TODD: -- he`s struggling with this.
BAI: I call that the theme in the night, America`s one big swamp hole -- was the theme of that convention night. Look, I think it`s a real missed opportunity for him, actually. Because, look -- it`s not about for him African Americans -- but he`s not going to win the African American vote. He can talk about it all he wants. That`s not going to happen.
But he does really need to change his numbers with college educated white voters, which Republicans always carry, and who Republicans always carry - - and he is not carrying. He can`t win without that.
And part of that is moderating this image. Part of that is presenting a different kind of Republican idea and a different kind of Donald Trump. And I think he actually. That`s been his instinct lately and I think he would accept that. He really is in the grip, in the thrall on this issue, of Rudy Giuliani and to an extent probably Chris Christie -- some of the people who are the most adamant --
TODD: Right.
BAI: -- and have the most invested in those policies.
TODD: It`s funny you bring up Rudy. It feels as if -- attaching yourself to Rudy Giuliani in 2004 on an issue like this would have been politically seen as smart, Perry. I don`t know if it is right now. I feel like Rudy himself has become very polarizing.
BACON: Rudy`s very polarizing. I wouldn`t go around -- I don`t know that national (INAUDIBLE). I`m not sure even Trump`s voters are necessarily for that. It was an odd position to take and you can tell, he`s sort of --
TODD: I know a lot of second amendment voters who think, "Whoa, stop and frisk? What do you mean?"
BACON: So I don`t think he`s in a good place right now. I do want to add, though, I think that in some ways the debate`s interesting, though. I think what you previewed on Sunday is more interesting.
Kaepernick -- you`ve seen a lot of black football players, black basketball players, who`ve done all this. I`d be curious on Sunday if we see a few more of the white players who I would argue have been more reluctant to get involved in this too. Because the video is indisputable to Tulsa particularly. This is a big issue and I wonder at, you know, if we get beyond. I`m not surprised blacks are there. I wonder if the athletes broaden out.
TODD: April, I`m hearing a lot of chatter about different protest ideas, right? You hear various chatter on -- what kind of impact do you think it should have?
RYAN: What kind of impact it should have is the fact that people watch and see, and they understand that this is a problem. There needs to be a solution. There needs to be change.
You know, we`ve heard from people like Congressman John Lewis, who`s talked about a solution. Saying, you know, community policing. We heard that from the Justice Department and also from the study that the president had -- 21st century policing, community policing suggestion. OK?
We also heard from the Homeland Security head, Jeh Johnson, who said community policing. And Jeh Johnson also said to me, the day of the Dallas memorial -- I was in his office and I interviewed him. And he said, "You know? When there is a breach between the community and law enforcement, it is a national security issue."
And really it`s real. Because you don`t have trust. And how can you ask someone if you see something, say something?
TODD: By the way, another universal theme here. Trust.
RYAN: Trust.
TODD: Broken trust in so many aspects of our lives. So many different demographic groups are feeling this lack of trust, and this broken trust.
Anyway, Matt, April, Perry. Thank you all. We`ll be back with one more story you might have missed. Stay tuned.
Well, in case you missed it, on a slightly lighter note here. Here is a deadpan Hillary Clinton on the web series, "Between Two Ferns."
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ZACH GALIFIANAKIS: As secretary, how many words per minute could you type? And how does President Obama like his coffee? Like himself? Weak?
HILLARY CLINTON: You know, Zach. Those are really out-of-date questions. You need to get out more.
GALIFIANAKIS: What happens if you become pregnant? Are we going to be stuck with Tim Kaine for nine months? How does this work?
CLINTON: I could send you some pamphlets that might help you understand.
TODD: Well, her delivery was fairly reminiscent of President Obama`s appearance in 2014. Clinton is struggling to bring back the Obama youth coalition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
So we know there might be a lot more Zach Galifianakis to help out.
That`s all for tonight. WITH ALL DUE RESPECT starts now.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END