virus briefings TRANSCRIPTS: 4/27/20, MSNBC Live: Decision 2020
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: As you could see, we`re up against the end of the
hour. So I want to be signing off, Ari Melber, anchoring on MSNBC. I`ll see
you back here tomorrow. Keep it on MSNBC.
STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC HOST: Good evening. I`m Steve Kornacki in New York.
Still grappling with the fallout from his remark of the last week,
President Trump is shifting his focus to the economy and to reopening the
country. In a press conference tonight that just wrapped up, he announced
new testing guidelines at the state level and he encouraged governors to
reopen their states beginning with their school systems.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What we want them to do, we
recommend that they do it as quickly as possible, but safely. We want
everyone to be safe. And I think, you`re seeing that, you`re seeing a lot
of governors get out and they want to open it up. Many are thinking about
their school system.
Not a long way to go in the school system right now for this season, for
this year, but I think you will see a lot of schools open up, even if it`s
for a very short period of time. I think it would be a good thing. Because
as you see, in terms of what this vicious virus goes after, young people
seem to do very well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: And this comes as the number of coronavirus cases in this country
now approaches 1 million, about 985,000. A little bit more than that as of
this evening. And that number includes almost 56,000 Americans now who have
lost their lives to this virus.
President avoided his usual public briefing this weekend, instead venting
his frustration on Twitter, where he attacked the media and his political
opponents. As NBC News reports, Trump`s remarks about injecting
disinfectants has sparked new debate at the White House about whether the
president`s public appearances need to be scaled back. In fact, the White
House initially canceled tonight`s briefing only to put it back on the
schedule of later in the afternoon. In fact, the president disclaimed any
responsibility for for suggesting that disinfectants could be used on
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Governor Larry Hogan specifically said they`ve seen a spike in
people using disinfectant after your comments last week. I know you said
they were sarcastic.
TRUMP: I can`t imagine why. I can`t imagine why. Yes.
REPORTER: Do you take any responsibility –
TRUMP: No, I don`t. I can`t imagine that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: And in a news story tonight, “The Washington Post” reports that,
quote, U.S. intelligence agencies issued warnings about the novel
coronavirus in more than a dozen classified briefings prepared for
President Trump in January and February. Those repeated warnings, quote,
were conveyed in issues of the President`s Daily Brief. But the alarms
appeared to have failed to register with the president, who routinely skips
I`m joined now by Ashley Parker, White House Reporter for The Washington
Post. David Frum, Senior Editor at The Atlantic, and a former George W.
Bush speech writer, and Dr. Kavita Patel, Physician Fellow at the Brookings
Institution and an MSNBC Medical Contributor. Thanks to all of you for
being with us.
Well, Ashley, let me start with you. There`s all that reporting that
preceded this most recent Trump press conference that just wrapped up
within the last few minutes that perhaps the White House was rethinking how
this were going to be done. This was initially not on the schedule today.
It was added schedule later, did not feature Dr. Fauci, did not feature Dr.
Birx. Is this a new model that we saw today?
ASHLEY PARKER, THE WASHINGTON POST WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, I think they
are trying to push the president to a new model, and talking to White House
officials over the weekend and, frankly isn`t before the president had that
very bad news cycle where he suggested injecting disinfectants.
There was an effort where they were going to try to make the focus of the
the president more economic. They think that is an area where the president
is more comfortable, where he has better chance for success. And also, for
instance, if he says something hyperbolic about the economy, as he did
today, saying he built the greatest economy in the history of the country,
it`s not dangerous in the way that passing along false misleading public
health information is.
So there was a new model trying to move towards fewer briefings and a sort
of separate economic venue for the president. The one challenge is, of
course, is this is a president who is incredibly responsive to news
coverage. So there were stories about there`s going to be less briefings.
The president himself on Saturday even tweeted this briefings, they`re just
not worth the time.
And then exactly, as you mentioned, we saw today, we woke up, there was a
briefing scheduled at about 9:20, the plan was a briefing. By about 11:00,
they have said, update, no briefing. And then a little after 1:00, a
briefing was back on. And a lot of that whiplash reflects a president who
does not want to be constrained despite what his advisers are advising him.
KORNACKI: Let me correct myself there too. I said that the Dr. Birx was not
at the briefing. Of course, if you were watching, Dr. Birx was at the
briefing room. It`s Dr. Fauci who wasn`t there, make sure I set the record
straight about that.
David Frum, in terms of what we saw at the end of last week from the
president and then what triggered all sort of a conversation over the
weekend, over the last few days, how would you contrast that with what you
saw this afternoon?
DAVID FRUM, THE ATLANTIC SENIOR EDITOR: He does seem to be under some kind
of restraint or duress. Ashley is right. The White House does come up with
plans for making him behave better. But we now have a long record where
Trumps aides come up with a brain wave to develop better behavior, him. He
will always snap. He cannot abide any kind of restraint. So, he will behave
himself for 24, or 36 or sometimes 48 or even more hours and then there
will be an explosion, as we saw over the weekend.
And the story about the briefing books is exactly the kind of thing that
ignites him. And, look, the president will have a basis for complaint,
because the deep state unfairly hid these warnings to the one place where,
for course, he would never look, inside a book.
KORNACKI: Dr. Patel, the theme there, of course, in addition to the idea of
reopening the states, it was testing. It was about ramping up testing
capacity. Bringing in cooperation from some of corporate America. What did
you make of what the president and what folks, some of those business
leaders who are up there as well, what did you make of what they we`re
saying about testing? Do you believe we have turned the corner on that?
DR. KAVITA PATEL, MSNBC MEDICAL CONTRIBUTOR: No, unfortunately, Steve, we
are facing a bit of an uphill climb and getting enough testing, absolutely.
And if you read the blueprint that talks about kind of cooperation. But,
essentially, it says, you know, state and local government and the private
sector are left to their on to set up a sentinel network. And there`s
really barely a minimum, Steve, of conversation about what to do once you
actually do get the tests. Because if somebody is positive, you need to put
into motion a pretty significant amount of tracing.
So, unfortunately, it always feels like with the administration, it`s a
little bit too late and not enough substance.
KORNACKI: We can actually put here the subject of testing comes up. And you
hear all sorts of claims, you hear all sorts of ridicule. Why don`t we put
the numbers up there and give you a sense of exactly where the United
States stands on testing right now.
So I think we can put this first graphic up. This shows – here we go –
this is a bar chart that shows the number of tests that have been performed
each day. And you do see there, it looks like in the last couple of days,
there has been an uptick there. You see it got north of 300,000, got over
200,000 a couple of days. Basically, what you`ve been seeing for about two
weeks before that was a number that was stalled at about 140,000, 150,000 a
day. So those raw numbers have increased in the last few days. Again, a lot
of experts telling us it needs to be higher still than that. But at least
that does show some more recent progress.
And you can see, I think this is the total number of tests that have been
performed. There should be a second graphic here we can take a look at.
There you go, this is the total number of tests. I think one thing to keep
in mind when you see this graphic here, again, all sorts different ways of
thinking about numbers, you hear the president often say more tests are
performed in the United States than anywhere else.
And you can see on this chart in raw numbers that`s certainly true, but, of
course, not every country has the same population. The U.S. has a
population that is much higher than a lot of these other countries
significantly higher. So when you break it down to tests per 1,000 people,
that`s where the United States, I don`t think we actually have that
But if you were to break those countries down by tests per 1,000 people,
the United States would be somewhere in the middle of the pack. We would be
higher than United Kingdom. I don`t think France is in on there, we will be
higher than France. We`ll be lower than Italy, lower than many of those
other other countries. So kind of the middle of the pack on the actual
testing rate, even if the raw numbers are significantly higher.
Ashley Parker, let me bring you in. On that piece of it, what the White
House was ostensibly and what the president was ostensibly announcing today
in terms of cooperation from some these major companies, major
pharmaceutical, major – Walmart, in terms of testing. What specific steps
are they saying are being implemented now?
PARKER: Well, it was a little unclear what the specifics were. Part of the
ostensible reason behind this briefing was that they had this big national
testing strategy to roll out. They had a conference call with some
reporters early in the day. Some outlets were invited, some were not. But
one of the goals was to be able to have about 2 percent of each state`s
population being able to be tested.
But when you listen to that press briefing, there were less – I would say,
they were less tangible specifics than I personally was expecting to hear.
And I think another thing to keep in mind, it doesn`t mean that this isn`t
going to happen or they`re not going to do this. But they did get pressed
This is not the first time we have seen some of this exact same executive
standing in that exact same place, the rose garden, and saying, we`re going
to ramp up drive thru testing sites. We`re going to work on public/private
partnerships. And after the first time, which happened last month, we had
to push, we went back and checked. And, initially, there were only about a
half dozen of these sites.
So I think it`s interesting and it`s great that they are trying to work
with this companies and stand something up. But until I think until we
actually see the proof of what are they doing with testing, how many test
are being produced, how are they getting processed in some tangible
numbers, I think it makes sense of histories and a guide (ph) to at least
be a little skeptical.
KORNACKI: Speaking of skepticism, David Frum, you mentioned your
skepticism, that the tone we saw from president today might persist for
another day or another few days. I wonder though just in terms of the focus
here we saw today and we were talking with Ashley about the focus shifting
from having a briefing that was, as focused on medical data now, more in
terms of the idea of reopening, more mention of the economy. Is that a
shift the White House would be wise to think about at all?
FRUM: Look, that the White House is – you can`t ask a question like would
this White House be wise to do this, because that treats it like a normal
kind of government. I think it`s important to understand, this
administration is on a two-track strategy. There`s a rhetorical strategy,
which pay slips (ph), service to testing, and tracing and maybe even
quarantining and all the things public health experts say.
But the real strategy, driven by the fact they have taken away those
options. In fact, it`s to – they have missed the deadlines for testing and
they`re now missing the deadlines for tracing and, of course, there`s no
plan for quarantining at all.
The real strategy is to muscle through it, to take the punch, to accept
that the infection will race through the population, to accept there will
be with a certain level of casualty and to make the economic reopening a
priority, to do what Sweden is doing, to do what Britain first tried and
then abandoned, to take the casualties in the pursuit of economic growth.
Here is the way the president is thinking with this. Right now, the numbers
are going up faster than you can count, probably up 17 percent, 18 percent
unemployment, maybe close to 20 percent, great depression levels. Unless
the economy begins to rocket upward sometime in the early part of summer,
the president has no hope of being reelected. He needs, in his mind, to
show economic recovery beginning rapidly. And that means that it is the
economy which he separates from human life that is going to be priority.
So the real policy is let it rip, take a punch, hope for rapid recovery,
hope that it would reelect the president. And if the casualties go above
100,000, toward 200,000, that`s the prize of a second Trump term.
KORNACKI: Dr. Patel, we talked about testing a little bit here. David also
mentioned that term, contact tracing. I didn`t hear as much emphasis on
that today. I`m just curious, from your standpoint, is the United States
positioned right now to implement the kind of contract tracing program that
would be necessary to begin talking about wide scale reopening? How far off
are we from being in position to do that?
PATEL: We`re pretty far off. I`ll give you the first data point. The CDC`s
budget was proposed to be pretty significantly cut before COVID. Of course,
Congress has injected funds into the CDC. But there is really no like ready
turn key staff to do this tracing. If you find someone that is positive,
let`s say, a couple months from now, and businesses reopen, you have to buy
human labor, you have to find a way to go back in time and talk to any of
their contacts and their contact`s contacts, all while keeping their
anonymity and privacy. This isn`t really something that you can just do
So we`re still pretty far off. And in the blueprint, I didn`t see enough
mention about the tracing, which is critical part of this.
KORNACKI: All right. Dr. Kavita Patel, Ashley Parker, David Frum, thank you
all for being with us. Dr. Patel actually will be with us a little bit
later as well.
Coming up, the debate over reopening. And we take a look at just how
different things are in some of the states that are beginning to reopen
compared to the epicenter of all this, United States, New York City. Stay
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 30 percent of restaurants are estimated to go out of
business as a result of this.
We really have been going through – I mean, to put it mildly, we`ve been
going through hell, what we`re going to be – what`s the future of this
We`re opening just for the sake of getting the wheels greased up to go
KORNACKI: Well, there was something that came up at that rose garden news
conference you saw a little bit while ago. There`s a lot of talk about
this, the idea of states beginning to reopen, beginning to lift
restrictions, some restrictions on non-essential businesses, on folks being
able to get out of their homes a little bit more, potentially.
What you see here, these are the states – and it`s not all the same in
these states. They`re not all doing this, the same way. But this are states
you see highlighted here that have begun to lift some of those
restrictions. Tennessee, for instance, you see an asterisk here. It`s not
even consistent within the State of Tennessee. Much of Tennessee is seeing
restrictions lifted but not all of Tennessee.
But we thought we would take a look here at one of the themes as we show
you these statistics all the time for the United States, the picture when
it comes to COVID can look dramatically different depending on where you
are in the United States, and, in fact, as Tennessee suggests there,
depending on where you are within a state.
So let`s take a look here at some of the statistics here. Take a look at
South Carolina. This is one of the states we just had highlighted there
where they are beginning to lift some of these restrictions. These are the
sort of the key statistics on this for South Carolina. You see deaths per
1,000, 0.03, hospitalizations for every 1,000 people on the state, 0.2,
cases, how many COVID cases do they have for every 1,000 in the states, you
Now, if those numbers look pretty small to you, here is one way to put them
in perspective. Let`s compare those numbers for South Carolina with where
this thing has just been raging, that is the epicenter here in the United
States, New York. Take a look at the New York numbers compared to the South
Carolina numbers, and that`s when you really get a sense of it.
Look at these numbers, they are just dramatically, dramatically larger in
North Carolina – in New York, excuse me, than they are in South Carolina.
That gets a part of the impetus, it seems, for some of the states
reopening, the picture on the ground in a lot of these states. Even if
they`ve had COVID cases, it isn`t, in terms of the numbers, nearly as dire
right now as it is in New York. That probably accounts for the impetus in a
state like South Carolina.
One thing to keep an eye on – we just talked a lot about this in the last
segment, though – the idea of widespread testing, if you`re going to start
reopening, having that widespread testing component in place, so you can
monitor these things, nip an outbreak in the bud.
And you see there a lot more testing going on right now in New York than in
South Carolina – than in South Carolina. So, keep that in mind. Georgia,
again, another state that is beginning to reopen here. Again, the numbers,
they are larger than in South Carolina, because Georgia has had a pretty
big outbreak, especially in the Albany, Georgia, area. Their numbers are
larger than South Carolina, but, again, considerably smaller than New York.
That could account for the impetus when we say, just quickly here, within
states, how different the picture can look even within states. Here`s a
New York, we talk about it all the time as the epicenter. So this is the
New York City metro area, New York City, the Long Island suburbs. It`s –
if you can see this map in New York, I know it`s kind of faded here, it`s
geographically a small part of New York state we`re talking about. We`re
talking about right down here.
These are the numbers. These are terrible numbers, the worst you`re going
to see in the country. Compare it to the rest of the state, Upstate New
York, Western New York. Again, it`s night and day. It`s just a totally
different picture. That`s even within New York, the hardest-hit state in
So, again, perspective on this thing, just how this all looks and how this
all feels on the ground. Big component of this is, depends where you`re
Still ahead: States are being pressured on both sides of the reopening
question. We`re going to ask a Northeastern state governor, neighbor of New
York, and a mayor of a Midwestern city how they are balancing these
That`s next. Stay with us.
KORNACKI: Welcome back.
As the Trump administration moves ahead with additional guidelines on
reopening the country, a number of states are starting to get back to some
As we were just talking about here, Colorado, Minnesota, Mississippi,
Montana, Tennessee, and Kentucky are among the states allowing some
businesses to begin reopening today, or at least are easing some
restrictions on businesses operating.
One of the fastest moving states, Georgia, gave the green light for
restaurants and movie theaters to open today, after opening personal care
businesses on Friday.
I am joined now by Democratic Governor Ned Lamont of Connecticut.
Governor, thanks for joining us.
And we should add, these states that are doing these partial reopenings,
that are lifting some of these restrictions, they`re talking about, OK, if
you have a restaurant here, it`s 50 percent capacity, 25 percent capacity.
So, even when we say reopening, we`re talking about limits within that.
But I`m just curious, looking at this begin to happen around the country,
what`s your sense of what the timetable for a state like yours that has
been hit pretty hard by this, what do you think your reopening timetable
looks like about right now?
GOV. NED LAMONT (D-CT): Well, Steve, remember, first of all, here in
Connecticut, the heart of our economy never stopped.
We`re a big manufacturing state, jet engines, submarines, helicopters. That
kept going. Big finance state, insurance capital of America. That kept
going. A lot of media companies. So, that all kept going.
But what hits you is the service economy. And, there, restaurants and bars,
that`s going to take a little longer to get going. And while it doesn`t hit
our GDP as much, it certainly hits our unemployment numbers big time.
KORNACKI: Well, so I`m curious.
When you say a little longer, I know, in New Jersey – I think New Jersey,
second to New York, I think, in terms of being just devastated by this
thing, the governor is talking about weeks, the timetable to begin this –
starting to get to reopening. He`s talking about weeks there.
Is that the way you think of it? Do you think about it longer?
LAMONT: No, I think about it in terms of weeks as well.
Over the next few weeks, we`re going to have a lot more testing. We`re
going to have a lot more masks. So that will allow us to get going. We will
have 14 days of declining hospitalizations, one are the key metrics.
So I would like to think we`d have most of our retail up and operating by
then, with all the appropriate social distancing.
KORNACKI: Your schools obviously not in session. Nobody`s are right now.
But the president talked today about some states, potentially, encouraging
states, potentially, to get kids back to school, even, he said, for a short
period of time before the end of this school year.
Is that something that`s on the radar at all in Connecticut?
LAMONT: You know, probably not.
We`re a pretty small state. And even though we have some sections of the
state that have a very low infection rate, and perhaps their schools could
open up, then, right next door, you have a school system that`s closed. It
sounds very complicated to me.
We have got great distance learning going on right now. And I`m afraid that
will probably be the norm through the end of June. But we haven`t made that
KORNACKI: What do you think life looks like this summer in your state?
You`re talking about the service sector of the economy, folks there
wondering if they`re going to have jobs, folks wondering there if they`re
going to have a paycheck this summer, if they`re going to be able – the
businesses they work for are going to be able to open.
Citizens in your state just wondering if they`re going to be able to get
out of their houses. Summer is wedding season. Maybe there`s families
wondering if their daughter and their future son-in-law are going to be
able to get married.
What is the summer going to look like in Connecticut, do you think?
LAMONT: I think our local businesses will be open, as long as you can
I think probably outside eating for our restaurants would get going sooner,
rather than later. I think people will be able to go outside and enjoy
summer weather, as long as they`re cautious about not – keeping that
I think our golf courses never closed down. I think – so I think we can do
a lot of things we have always wanted to do. I think bars and rock concerts
and places where you tend to congregate, that`s going to take a bit longer.
KORNACKI: This morning, the president tweeted this. He said: “Why should
the people in taxpayers of America be bailing out poorly run states and
cities, in all cases Democrat-run and -managed, when most of the other
states are not looking for bailout help?”
Again, this idea of getting federal aid to the states.
What`s your response to what the president put up on Twitter today?
LAMONT: That`s nonsense.
You look around the country, red states, blue states, we have all been hit.
Wyoming, North Dakota, they`re hit because of energy. The price of energy
collapses, and that hit their budget very hard.
How about Mitch McConnell`s Kentucky? Talk about an unfunded pension
liability and 20-plus percent unemployment. So, don`t pit blue states
against red states. Let`s get this fixed.
KORNACKI: All right, Governor Ned Lamont, Democrat from Connecticut, thank
you for taking a few minutes. Appreciate that.
LAMONT: Thanks, Steve.
KORNACKI: All right, and meanwhile, in Oklahoma, the governor there, Kevin
Stitt, has allowed some hair and nail salons to open for appointments as of
last Friday. And at the end of this week, on May 1, restaurants, movie
theaters, gyms, and sports venues in that state can begin to open with
adherence to social distancing and sanitation guidelines.
The governor says his approach to reopening will be data-driven. Oklahoma
has reported more than 3,200 confirmed cases of coronavirus, and 197 people
there so far have died.
Unlike Georgia, however, Governor Stitt`s plan in Oklahoma does allow local
governments to put their own conditions on reopening.
And I`m joined now by the mayor of the largest city in Oklahoma, Oklahoma
City, David Holt. And he is one of the first mayors in the state to issue a
Mr. Mayor, thank you for joining us.
So, you`re going to have some – per your governor here, you`re going to
have some flexibility in your city in terms of what can open, what can`t
What`s your sense, by the end of this week, of what you think will be
operating in some capacity in Oklahoma City?
DAVID HOLT (R), MAYOR OF OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA: Well, we also have to
operate within the structure.
You`re right. We do have some flexibility in Oklahoma City. And, certainly,
in the interest of public health, we`re going to use that, to the greatest
We also have to recognize we operate within a structure where I`m only the
mayor of less than half the people in my metro. And that`s probably going
to be the case in many metropolitan areas. And so we have to have some kind
of uniformity across the metro for there to be any real public health
benefit in closures.
And that`s a realistic external factor that we had to consider as we moved
Having said that, I think our list of openings will be very similar, if not
identical, to the governor`s. But we`re going to put some conditions on
that and commonsense stuff that you could probably imagine, but social
distancing and sanitation protocols, to try to make this as safe as
Obviously, we want to continue to keep the same mind-set we have had here
for the last six weeks.
KORNACKI: Now, in terms of, once you put this in place, you put these
conditions on it, talk about the monitoring process, then, because, I mean,
if you get a report of one case, what do you do? If you get a report of 10
cases, what do you do?
How is the monitoring going to work? And how reactive are you going to be
to reports of cases?
Well, I mean, data is critical. And we`re going to – and I should say, I
mean, we`re not moving forward on Friday if there`s some sudden change in
the next four days. We`re going to be monitoring data every day between now
Obviously, we seem to be in a decent position, relative to other places.
And we appear, just barely, to meet the White House criteria as of last
Friday. But we`re going to keep watching that.
But as we move forward into this new phase, absolutely. I mean, I have said
it, and the governor has said it, that if there`s a sudden shift, if
there`s a spike, then, obviously, this experiment has failed, and we have
got to maybe go back to an earlier phase.
My hope, my optimistic hope, is that everybody has conditioned themselves
over the last six weeks, and maybe we weren`t ready for this phase on March
15, but we`re ready for it now. And we`re certainly going to continue to
message how important it is to take all the precautions we have been
talking about, and if you are going to engage in these high-risk
activities, that you do social distancing, and you do sanitation, you wear
masks, all that stuff.
But, at the end of the day, no, we`re going to watch that data like a hawk.
So, I`m curious about that, because I think this is an issue that cities
and states all across the country are going to have to deal with whenever
it is that they begin to reopen in some way. And that is the difference
between, OK, there`s a report of a case, there`s a report of a few dozen
cases that might be kind of scattered and don`t represent a new outbreak,
vs. you said the idea there of looking for a spike.
It seems easy to sort of say that, but how will you define that?
KORNACKI: How will you know you`re looking at a spike, and not just an
assortment of sort of scattered cases?
HOLT: Well, that`s why we listen to public health officials.
I mean, we`re going to look for definition for that from the highest
levels, people like Dr. Fauci, who`s a hero, but also people like here at
our Oklahoma City County Health Department, Dr. Patrick McGough and his
team here. They`re our local heroes.
And we`re going to rely – nobody – nobody`s depending on me for public
health expertise, thank goodness. We`re going to rely on public health
experts to tell us the significance of certain things, whether this is a
spike that the whole community should be concerned about, or maybe it`s
localized to one assisted living center.
I mean, all of that, obviously, are things that we have to consider. But we
rely on public health officials, science and data, to make these decisions.
KORNACKI: All right, David Holt, the mayor of Oklahoma City, thank you for
taking a few minutes. Appreciate that.
HOLT: Thank you very much. Be well.
KORNACKI: All right, you too.
And up next, a pair of medical professionals share their assessments of the
progress so far in this fight and their forecasts for what`s coming next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NATASHA CACCIATORE, BOSTON CRITICAL CARE NURSE: I want you to understand
that it can be you, no matter what your age is, no matter what your history
We have seen patients in their 20s. We have seen patients in their 90s and
everything in between. And all of them have been sick.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA CENTER FOR
INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH: At most, 5 to 15 percent of the United States
has been infected to date.
With all the experience we have had so far, this virus is going to keep
transmitting. And it`s going to be here for the next 16 to 18 months. And
people don`t get that yet. We`re just on the very first stages.
When I hear New York talking about the fact they`re now on the backside of
the mountain, I know they have been through hell, and that`s an important
statement, but they have to understand, that`s not the mountain. That`s the
foothills. They have mountains to go yet.
We have a lot of people to get infected before this is over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: Welcome back.
That was Dr. Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious
Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.
That was yesterday on “Meet the Press.”
It`s been more than three months now since the first case of the
coronavirus was reported here in the United States. Scientists have learned
a lot in that time.
But as the country approaches its one millionth case, there is still much
more we don`t yet know about this deadly virus.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has added several new
symptoms for the public to be on the lookout for. Some of them may sound
familiar because doctors and patients often speak about them.
They include chills, repeated shaking with chills, muscle pain, headache,
sore throat, and losing your sense of taste or smell.
Back with me is Dr. Kavita Patel, physician fellow at the Brookings
Institution. And joining the conversation is Dr. Anand Parekh, chief
medical adviser at the Bipartisan Policy Center and former deputy assistant
secretary for health at the Department of Health and Human Services.
Thanks to both of you for being with us.
Well, Dr. Parekh, let me start with you on what we just read there. These
new symptoms that have been added to the profile of the disease that folks
perhaps should be on the lookout for, we hear so much symptoms that this is
a disease of the lungs, of the airwaves, it affects breathing. When you
start seeing, for instance, chills added to the symptom list, what is that
telling us about our understanding of what this disease, what this virus
DR. ANAND PAREKH, FORMER HHS DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF HEALTH: Steve,
we`re still learning quite a bit about this disease. I think a lot of the
symptoms you just presented are flu-like symptoms and I think the important
point that the American public right now is flu season is winding down and
yet you see sort of this influenza-like illness out the there, which makes
us think absolutely that COVID-19 is present across the country, and not
necessarily showing signs of slowing down everywhere.
KORNACKI: Well, as businesses, we were just talking about this, to decide
whether to begin to reopen, a new study finds that the coronavirus appears
to linger in air in crowded space or rooms without ventilation. The study
published today in the journal “Nature Research”, did not indicate whether
the airborne particles could cause infections but said future studies
should explore that.
Dr. Patel, I`ve been seeing this about indoor spaces. I know there is
another study about folks in a restaurant who directly in the line of an
air conditioner, they were getting it at a much higher rate than folks who
were just 10 feet away from them, but were in the line of that.
What are we learning about indoor versus outdoor in terms of transmission
DR. KAVITA PATEL, FORMER OBAMA WHITE HOUSE HEALTH POLICY DIRECTOR: Well, we
know that indoors and especially the environments in which some of the
studies were done are a lot like hospitals or medical facilities and in
those environments, it`s pretty clear, Steve, that the need for the medical
grade personal protective equipment is still very high because it can
linger in those spaces four hours as the studies pointed out. But to your
point, indoor/outdoor restaurants, certainly outdoors, and especially if we
can have tables that are kind of apart, that will help.
But it`s pretty clear that our normal indoor dining habits are going to
change, and it`s not just because of what you said but it`s also because
probably a higher infection rate, Steve, of people touching things and that
being a kind of a real cause of the transmission of the virus. So, it`s a
little bad news for indoor diners because we can`t be in crowded, packed
spaces like we used to.
KORNACKI: Let me ask you getting away from restaurants and businesses
indoor versus outdoor, something more basic, just in we`re going to have to
live with this in some form over summer, I think this became an issue in
California over the weekend. You had a heat wave in California over the
weekend, you got folks who`ve been in their houses doing their best to
adhere to all the guidelines that are out there, helping bring this numbers
down, and I think what you saw over the weekend out there was folks, I just
want to get outside. Here is a beach a mile away, five miles away, whatever
it is. Let me get outside. Let me just get air.
I know it has caused controversy but given what we know about indoor, and
what you`re describing about indoor versus outdoor, in just the reality of
folks trying to live with this and trying to find some outlet to gather at
their house, is there a case to be made for finding a way to get people,
you know, responsibly. But is there a way to get them, you know, to beaches
and other outdoor places over summer just to give them a break from being
inside? Is there a way to do safely, do you think?
PATEL: I do think there is a way. But –
KORNACKI: Go ahead, Dr. Patel.
PATEL: I do think there is a way to do it safely. If you stack the use of,
for example, non-medical masks, parking spaces that are distanced and
having pretty clear like designation that people should keep distances of
at least six feet and while they`re in their non-medical masks, than being
sensible, not having like metal kind of play structures that people can
use. But I do think part of this is how do we return to encouraging some
form of exercise or fresh air, which is what you`re getting to? It`s just
going to be a different way than we`re used to.
KORNACKI: Well, it could be at least another year before the vaccine is
available. Dozens of clinical trials on potential treatments are underway
here and abroad. In New York, researchers are conducting a study involving
heartburn medication in combination with the an-malarial
In Japan, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe may approve the use of an antiviral
drug remdesivir, and I don`t know if I`m getting that right. I keep reading
this thing, I`m not sure on the pronunciation, but it was first developed
as a possible treatment for Ebola.
Dr. Parekh, there was another one, and I see these stories all the time. I
perk up when I see a story about some potentially promising study. I
imagine a lot of folks out there. There was another one I saw today out of
Oxford University in England, a potential vaccine apparently being, had
been tested in some monkeys, they`ve been given – six monkeys had been
giving a high dose of this a month later.
They weren`t showing any symptoms of it. And this Oxford lab had a history
with this coronavirus apparently, a positive story there as well.
Let me ask you, a broad question, we keep hearing a year, 18 months at
least for a vaccine. Is anything that you`ve seen, whether it`s the Oxford
one I`m talking about or Japan or anything else, has anything that you have
seen given you hope that it could be less than 18 months, less than a year
and maybe substantially less?
PAREKH: Steve, unfortunately, I think a vaccine is going to take at least a
year. Again, you have to remember that these studies not only have to go
through animal studies but human studies. Safety is paramount. You have to
look at effectiveness, where the vaccine elicits an immune response. You
want to make sure that the vaccine has given a fairly large number of
people so you can identify side effects.
So, unfortunately, Steve, on the vaccine front, it`s going to take probably
take a year and then you have to focus on manufacturing as well as
distribution. But, Steve, you also mention medications and in particularly
anti-viral medications, monoclonal antibodies, and I think there, there
could, in fact, be some promising therapeutics in the coming months.
There are dozens and dozens of clinical trials across the world. Just
today, one was reported a randomized control clinical trial, monoclonal
antibody, looking at patients who have severe COVID-19 with pneumonia and
the small study showed reduction in death, as well as the use mechanical
ventilation. So, I think, Steve, there are so many studies, so many
potential therapeutics of that might – and I think we all hope that will
come to fruition before a vaccine is possible.
KORNACKI: OK. We`ll all keep our fingered crossed on that.
Dr. Anand Parekh, Dr. Kavita Patel – Dr. Patel doing double duty for us
tonight, we appreciate that. Thank you both for being with us.
And up next, NBC news chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel takes
inside Sweden`s controversial pandemic response. That is where schools,
shops, restaurants remained open and social distancing is voluntary.
We`re back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Watching people die without anybody there is just
torture. And I know it`s going hurt a lot of nurses. We`re going need a lot
of coaching and counseling after this is over. I know, it`s hard for the
families no to the be there. I`m just praying that we`re done with this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: Welcome back.
Yesterday, Italy`s prime minister announced the gradual easing of that
country`s restrictive lockdown. Italy, of course, was the first Western
nation to impose a strict national lockdown more than a month ago as the
coronavirus began spreading throughout that region.
Sweden opted for a dramatically different approach, however. Sweden`s
health officials chose to keep things open and to make social distancing
NBC`s chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel reports from Stockholm on
the controversial approach – Richard.
RICHARD ENGEL, CNN CHIEF FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Steve, for Sweden it`s all
about sustainability. This country believes that they`re going to be facing
the coronavirus in one wave or another, one mutation or another potentially
for many years to come so they are trying to think about the long term,
trying not to have a policy where they lock everything down only to have to
open it up again and lock it down once more.
They are thinking what can we do that is sustainable potentially for years
until there is an effective vaccine, if there is an effective vaccine
because there is no guarantee we`re going to reach that?
I spoke earlier today with the mastermind of this program, the Dr. Fauci of
Sweden, his name is Dr. Anders Tegnell. And he said that people here
respond better to suggestions rather than obligation, especially if you
want them to do something for the long term. he said that people – if you
treat people like adults and speak to them, explain what the rational is
that here in Sweden, at least, they have been sticking to some social
guidelines without having to totally close down their businesses.
Here, almost nothing has been closed. Schools are open. Shops are open.
Restaurants are open. Bars are open. But people are told don`t over crowd
them, don`t go and visit your elderly grandparents, especially if they`re
ill and try and keep your distance from people.
But they`re not even seeing keep six feet apart. They`re not putting lines
of chalk down or tape on the ground. They`re just saying keep a respectful
distance, we`ll leave it up to you to decide what it is.
A lot of critics say that this is irresponsible and pushing for so-called
herd immunity, which means you protect the vulnerable and let everybody
else get sick with the idea and hope that eventually they become more and
more immune, but health officials say so far, so good in this country. They
had 2,000 deaths, half of them in nursing homes, half in the rest of the
population but that is more or less equivalent per capita to the rates they
have been having in the United States – Steve.
KORNACKI: All right. Richard Engel, thank you for that.
And coming up, the latest on the 2020 race. Joe Biden picked up a big
endorsement today. We`ll be right back.
KORNACKI: Welcome back.
The president`s handling of the coronavirus crisis has threatened his
political standing six months ahead of the presidential election. With
nearly 60,000 Americans now dead and 26 million losing their jobs in recent
weeks, there is a new poll today from the “USA Today” and Suffolk
University that shows the presumptive Democratic nominee, former Vice
President Joe Biden leading Trump in a hypothetical matchup by ten points.
Other polls put closer but consistently a Biden lead in the high single
digits over Trump.
And today, the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi formally endorsed Biden, saying
he would be, quote, in extraordinary president, citing his leadership
during the financial crisis and his experience in the Obama administration.
Right now, President Trump`s approval rating is steady. It`s Real Clear
Politics Average is about 45 percent right now. Even though an “Associated
Press` poll shows that few Americans trust the information he`s providing
on the pandemic.
Even more troubling for the president is a series of polls in battle ground
states released over the last week that show Trump trailing Biden in
critical states. Trump campaign officials told the associated press that
they have, quote, become concerned about losing support in several key
swing states, particularly Florida and Wisconsin.
Some advisors have all but written off Michigan. “The New York Times”
reports internal RNC polling mirrors public polling that shows the
president quote struggling in the Electoral College battlegrounds and
likely to lose without signs of an economic rebound this poll.
The president`s precarious standing also has down ballot Republicans
concerned. But, of course, as we`ve learned, six months can be an eternity
in politics. Heck, in this era, six minutes can be an eternity.
Thank you for being with us.
“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” is up next.
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Copyright 2020 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are
protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced,
distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the
prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter
or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the