Trump tax fight TRANSCRIPT: 5/12/20, The Beat w/ Ari Melber

Tammy Baldwin, Ron Klain, Neal Katyal, William Schaffner


ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Welcome to THE BEAT. I`m Ari Melber on a very busy

news day.


The fight over Donald Trump`s tax returns hitting the Supreme Court in a

historic standoff, while job losses drive what some are calling a Trump



We have special report on inequality and the racial disparities circulating

throughout this pandemic tonight.


Also, late-breaking news on Jared Kushner`s medical supply task force.


So, we have a lot tonight on a whole variety of topics. So stay with us.


But we begin with a basic fact right now during this pandemic. Much of the

government is an essential service. That`s true for public servants leading

this pandemic response, and for the Congress that overseas them, and the

courts that also provide oversight in our system of balance of power.


And, today, I can tell you what this all looks like.


One, the Supreme Court holding, as mentioned, these unprecedented oral

arguments by telephone conference call, no Zoom for the justices, in this

case overseeing Trump and his historically unusual secrecy.


And then this visual of the Senate holding its own virtual hearing, Zooming

along of sorts, just like so many other Americans. And these were for

reasons even more pressing than what faces the high court, because three

top health officials testifying from home are doing so because they`re

self-isolating after West Wing staffers tested positive for the virus.


The most prominent, Dr. Fauci, facing the senators and at times

undercutting and debunking misinformation from the president. Now, this was

a doctor in a setting with several other leaders who are, of course, in a

co-equal branch of government. So it`s different than when we see him in

those other settings, like the president over his shoulder at a press



And let`s be clear. What you need to know tonight, the doctor clearly

breaking with parts of his boss` push to reopen, providing facts and

science. Dr. Fauci warning that states who try to reopen too soon could

face deadly consequences.




DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIAID DIRECTOR: It`s my concern that, if some areas,

city, states or what have you jump over those various checkpoints and

prematurely open up, without having the capability of being able to respond

effectively and efficiently, my concern is that we will start to see little

spikes that might turn into outbreaks.


There is a real risk that you will trigger an outbreak that you may not be

able to control.




MELBER: Now, the doctor chooses his words deliberately.


So let`s listen to them deliberately. An outbreak you might not be able to

cancer is more than a warning. It`s a reminder that this devastating bout

of the virus has actually been controlled in certain ways, and the experts

are telling us that, even amidst all of the death we`re living through.


So any failure on the road ahead, Dr. Fauci is warning everyone in public,

in this setting, in this testimony. He warning us that something

potentially worse could happen than what we have been already going



Now, another exchange today that I want to show you is when Donald Trump`s

former GOP rival turned congressional supporter libertarian Senator Rand

Paul tried to make some sort of point by pressing Dr. Fauci on humility.


And if it was an attempt to cow the doctor, well, he wasn`t having it.




SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): I think we ought to have a little bit of humility in

our belief that we know what`s best for the economy.


And as much as I respect you, Dr. Fauci, I don`t think you`re the end-all.


FAUCI: I have never made myself out to be the end-all and only voice of



I`m a scientist, a physician and a public health official. I don`t give

advice about anything other than public health.


But I am very careful and hopefully humble in knowing that I don`t know

everything about this disease.




MELBER: Now, exchanges like that were not the only tone we saw.


Senator Mitt Romney, who has become something of an outlier among

Republicans on the Hill, you see him here at home flanked by family

portraits, and he went ahead and used some of this time to fact-check

Donald Trump`s claims about testing.




SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): By March 6, the U.S. has completed just 2,000

tests, whereas South Korea had conducted more than 140,000 tests. So

partially as a result of that, they have 256 deaths and we have almost

80,000 deaths.


I find our testing record nothing to celebrate whatsoever.




MELBER: All this comes as Donald Trump tries to push to reopen the country;

32 states are already technically open, another eight gearing up to do so

next week.


And there are some safe ways to start this process. But, again, let`s

listen to Dr. Fauci stress that some progress is a long ways from acting or

living like this is under control.




FAUCI: If you think that we have it completely under control, we don`t.


I mean, if you look at the dynamics of the outbreak, we are seeing a

diminution of the hospitalizations and infections in some places, such as

in New York City, which has plateaued and started to come down, New



But in other parts of the country, we are seeing spikes. I think we`re

going in the right direction, but the right direction does not mean we have

by any means total control of this outbreak.




MELBER: This is news you can use, literally.


Look, if you`re in America, you`re watching this, most of us are living

through this, trying to understand how to manage risks, trying to figure

out what we`re up against as things evolve, making plans, talking to other

people about it.


I`m sure you have had plenty of conversations about it, and you try to draw

on what you have learned along the way, especially what we have learned

from experts.


So, let`s be clear, a partial reopening does not mean business as usual.

Leaving the house a little more in an area where that is clear to do is a

risk that can be managed. It doesn`t mean that everyone should then just go

out as much as possible in any place that is reopening.


And in new parts of the country, let`s be clear about what we`re hearing.

These numbers show that one region`s May is going to look more like another

region`s harrowing April or March.


Consider how the New York City area has been flattening, something that we

just heard the doctor reference. But the rest of the country has cases on

the rise.


So there are certain places that are getting worse, that are getting more

dangerous for you. Donald Trump has been urging all states basically to

basically uniformly move quickly, and he says, he thinks the cases are

sharply decreasing. Move quickly.


But it depends where you are. And he knows this, or at least his staff

does, because an unreleased White House report was showing the coronavirus

rate spiking in the heartland of America, including many states with a

different regional makeup than where we first saw it hit, like New York and



You can see the increase in cases here in these hot spots, several cities

registering surges over a one-week period. That includes Nashville, Des

Moines, and at the top of the list, with a 650 percent increase, Central

City, Kentucky.


Meanwhile, I want you to know several other cities are now on a watch lit,

Kansas City, Omaha, Lincoln, and Montgomery, Alabama.


We have to keep track of the details across each part of the country to

keep each part safe, based on what`s is going on where you are, where you



To that end, I want to bring in our experts, beginning with Dr. William

Schaffner, professor at Vanderbilt and a CDC adviser, Ron Klain, the chief

of staff to two vice presidents. He oversaw the response to the Ebola

outbreak during the Obama administration. And Heather McGhee, a

distinguished senior fellow at the progressive think tank Demos and an NBC

News analyst.


Good to see all of you.


Doctor, how do you apply what Dr. Fauci was saying about different regions

having to do it different ways right now?



VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: Public health is local, Ari. You have got to know

what`s going on in your neighborhood.


And, basically, all neighborhoods ought to be moving very, very cautiously.

You know, it is a new normal. We`re not going back to the old normal. The

coronavirus is with us.


So, all the social distancing recommendations need to be kept in mind. We

ought to minimize going out in groups, wear those masks when you`re out in

public, wash your hands a lot. Don`t congregate in large groups. We don`t

want to do that. We`re not ready to do that anywhere, because we need to

keep this virus under control.


MELBER: But, specifically, the strange thing about this is, there is going

to be a type of – beyond all the hardship, there is also a type of fatigue

from people who have been doing certain precautions and hearing about this

and living with it.


And it`s human nature, as we know, where people want to move on. But,

Doctor, what we`re seeing, again, according to the numbers I just put up,

is that there are places in this country that are probably, unfortunately,

more at the front end of this than in rounding the corner this week.


SCHAFFNER: It`s all local.


Watch what`s happening in your own neighborhood. Listen to your local

public health authorities. That`s very, very important. I understand the

fatigue. I`m not saying we have to keep our doors locked and stay inside

all the time. Go out carefully.


Yes, relax some of what you`re doing, go out, but always do so carefully.

The mask is now a fashion statement, as well as a public health protective





SCHAFFNER: We need to do these things in a very sober, careful way.


MELBER: Well, and if anyone can make the mask fashionable or cool, that`s

obviously a net positive.


We have got other, you know, areas where form follows function.


Ron, Dr. Fauci also poured more cold water on the silver bullet part of

this. Everyone would love to get a vaccine, the sooner, the better. The

president has talked that up a lot.


But he really was very clear about understanding the limits of that as one

way to resolve or end this.


Take a listen.




FAUCI: There is no guarantee that the vaccine is actually going to be



So one of the big unknown is, it will be effective. Given the way the body

responds to viruses of this type, I`m cautiously optimistic that we will,

with one of the candidates, get an efficacy signal.




MELBER: Ron, how is that important, particularly when you`re managing

expectations, as you have done on the government side of this?


Because everybody is looking for good news. Everybody wants to know how

it`s going to end. But experts are telling us the vaccine is one, but not

the only way that you wind this down.



think there are three ways this potentially ends.


I think one is with the vaccine. I think what Dr. Fauci was saying today

is, until we know it`s effective, we don`t really know we have a vaccine



By the way, even after it`s effective, it has to be manufactured in massive

quantities. That will take months, not weeks. And then administered, and

that will take months more. So, I think the vaccine is, in a best-case

scenario, very far away.


The second would be through having really widespread therapeutics and know

that, if you get it, you could get treated. It might have not that bad

effects. Again, we`re far away from that too. We`re seeing some promise

there. But, certainly, people can`t take this disease for granted.


And the third way – and I think the more practical solution here in the

short term, in the medium term, is to have widespread antigen testing, so

we can identify who has the virus. We can contact-trace those people, so on

and so forth.


Now, good news/bad news on that, Ari. I think there are promising signs

that that may be available in August or September. But that`s still August

or September. It`s not next week. It`s not next month.




KLAIN: And so I think what the doctor was saying earlier, this is a test.

This is a war of wills between us and the virus.


And the question, who is going to win that war of wills? And that`s the

real challenge here.






I`m joined by Ron Klain, who managed the Ebola response for the Obama

administration, and Heather McGhee. We have Dr. Schaffner with us.


I will be joined momentarily by a senator.


And I will tell viewers watching we were having some tech difficulties a

few moments ago, but we think we`re through them.


And, Heather, I want to play something that we put together for your

analysis here, Dr. Fauci testifying today before the Senate.


And we were seeing him really contradict things that the president has

claimed. Take a look overall.





day. It`s like a miracle. It will disappear.


FAUCI: That is just not going to happen, because it`s such a highly

transmissible virus.


TRUMP: Through an incredible amount of work by the federal government, we

have a big, big beautiful overcapacity.


FAUCI: We`re going in the right direction, but the right direction does not

mean we have by any means total control of this outbreak.


TRUMP: They have a very low mortality rate, like we do. We have a low

mortality rate also.


FAUCI: The number of deaths are likely higher than that number.


TRUMP: The people aren`t going to stand for it. They want to get back.

They`re not going stand for it. They want our country open. I want our

country open.


FAUCI: There is a real risk that you will trigger an outbreak that you may

not be able to control.




MELBER: That`s all new testimony, the doctor speaking from home. Like so

many people, as mentioned, he is self-isolating. But that`s all brand-new

today in formal testimony.


What does it say to you, Heather?



people are putting a bet on Dr. Fauci.


And if it`s Trump vs. Fauci or even Alexander or Paul or most any of the

other Republicans in Congress vs. Fauci, they`re listening to Fauci.


“The Washington Post” released a poll today that showed that, generally

speaking, governors are getting high bipartisan votes from Americans and

support from Americans, but the governors, mainly the Republican governors

who have moved to open up their economies and put workers and the public at

risk, they`re underwater, in Georgia, in Texas, and Florida.


And so the American people, you know, for all the protests that we see and

all that Donald Trump wants to tweet about, are scared. They`re cautious.

They`re trying to look for expertise. And I think it`s really important.


Today`s testimony was extremely important for the American people, who are

just wanting straight, sobering answers.


MELBER: Yes, it`s really important. That`s why we have been highlighting



Before we bring in the senator, Ron, I have one more piece of business with

you. It involves a compliment to your public service. So there you go.

Sometimes, that`s going happen.


But it also guess to the larger dynamics of this, with a president, in

Donald Trump, who is obsessed with comparing himself, often inaccurately,

to everyone, but particularly Barack Obama, and a time period where, on the

one hand, a lot of people say, look, let`s put all the comparisons to the

side and focus exclusively on doing the work and reporting the facts.


But then, with this president, that leaves a lot of his comparisons



This is a longtime Republican operative who worked for John McCain, among

others, known to our audience, Steve Schmidt.


And we did want to play for you, Ron, what he said about the Obama

administration and your tenure. Take a look.




STEVE SCHMIDT, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: If Barack Obama was the president

of the United States, this would not have happened. We would have had

competent, professional people.


We would have had someone like Ron Klain in charge of it, not the

confederacy of dunces that we see running around the West Wing.




MELBER: Ron, disaster and disease response involves, by definition, some

unavoidable loss of life and tragedies when it gets to this level. We have

seen that in many countries, in fairness to any leader.


But we`re also hearing from experts – and I just showed you Steve`s

opinion – that there have been policy failures and leadership failures

here is that could have saved lives.


You were name-checked. Your response?


KLAIN: Well, I appreciate the compliment. It`s very kind.


I don`t really deserve the credit. The credit really goes to President

Obama himself. And I`m sure that must be frustrating to President Trump.


But, you know, here are the big difference, Ari, which is, President Obama

put science first. He listened to Dr. Fauci. Dr. Fauci was an adviser to

President Obama and five other presidents, and President Obama took his



He wasn`t busy debating Dr. Fauci in public. He was busy listening to him

in private. He used every tool of the government at his disposal to fight

Ebola overseas and here at home.


President Trump still refuses to use the Defense Production Act to fix the

testing problem, using to it send some meatpacking workers back to work,

but not to make the workplace safe for the rest of us at all, and for

meatpacking workers too.


And then the President Obama listened to other government experts and

really used the power of the government. Instead, we have heard that

basically Jared Kushner brought in a bunch of young consultants and turned

them loose to try to solve these problems, and really didn`t listen to the

great teams that are in the government.


Look, I`m grateful I have gotten the credit from Steve and others. The key

to the Ebola response was leadership by President Obama and the many, many

experts inside our government on logistics, on testing, on organizing.


There are brilliant men and women who give their careers to work for our

government. This president derides them as the deep state. They are the

people who can solve problems like this.


MELBER: All fair points.


Stay with me.


As promised, we have been keeping up with a lot of different parts of this



Now I want to bring in a U.S. senator, Democratic Senator Tammy Baldwin

from Wisconsin. She was at the hearing today, pressing on questions about

testing capacity and other aspects of reopening the country.


Thank you for joining us.


Real quick, before we get to the meat of it, I`m just curious. At the basic

level, just like everyone who has had a Zoom birthday call these days or

anything else, how was it trying to do this remotely at your job today?


SEN. TAMMY BALDWIN (D-WI): Well, it was absolutely remarkable to have all

four witnesses join us remotely, and all of the members teleworking from

their offices or Capitol Hill apartments or their home.


Both the chair and ranking member were remote in their home states. And,

you know, we were called back to Washington, D.C., to do oversight and to

work on issues.


And I just have to throw in my criticism of the fact that we have done

nothing related to the pandemic on the Senate floor since we were called

back into session.


MELBER: What did you think that you learned? We highlighted a few aspects

of today`s hearing.


But what did you learn and what is important for your constituents and

Americans to know from Dr. Fauci and the other testimony you received



BALDWIN: Well, it was dramatic in terms of how significant – significantly

behind we are in lacking a national testing strategy, and, for that matter,

a national strategy around providing PPE and other medical equipment.


We have seen this all play out, and we keep getting promised that it`s at



My first question of Dr. Redfield was whether he believed that the testing

strategy and protocol at the White House was a standard that should be

viewed as a best practice for the rest of this country.


He stammered and gave basically a non-reply, but it`s really, really clear

that what has been put in place to protect the White House is not available

for people in essential workplaces across this country right now.


When I hear from people who work in meatpacking plants in the state of

Wisconsin who can`t get the PPE they need, and certainly waited far too

long to get testing, there`s just two standards, the one for the White

House, the one for the president, and the one for the rest of the workers

in this – in the United States.


MELBER: And, finally, what`s the most important thing that you think

Congress should do next?


BALDWIN: Well, I think that there`s two things.


One is, there is more work to be done in terms of passage of another

coronavirus response package. One was unveiled just a few hours ago that

would represent the fourth major package.


And I will have to say, I have only begun to review it, but I was very

pleased to see my OSHA legislation that would finally direct the

Occupational and Health and Safety Administration to do its job and issue a

mandatory and enforceable standard for all workplaces, especially as the

president prods people to open up.


Right now, we just have voluntary guidance, and it`s insufficient for the

protection of workers in this country. Secondly, we have to continue



So, obviously, this hearing today with Dr. Fauci and Dr. Redfield and

others is a part of that effort. But I can tell you the administration has

been reluctant to send members of the task force, the secretary of the

Treasury, the Small Business Administration to come before Senate

committees, so that we can keep a spotlight on the implementation of the

CARES Act and make sure that there is transparency and accountability as

this is implemented.


MELBER: Understood.


Senator Baldwin, I really appreciate you joining us. You were in that big

hearing with Dr. Fauci.


I want to thank Ron Klain for being here.


Heather McGhee will stay with us and come back.


We turn next to this fight over Donald Trump`s tax returns. It hit the

Supreme Court today, and I have the full report with Maya Wiley and Neal

Katyal when we`re back in just 30 seconds.




MELBER: Donald Trump has taken his years-long fight to keep his taxes

secret all the way to the Supreme Court today.


This is a sign of just how far Donald Trump will go to hide evidence of his

own finances. Now, some investigators say the records could reveal key

information about his conduct, about whether he has lied about his money,

and if he lied to the feds at any point in time, which is, of course, a



Now, House Democrats invoked one federal law to request the tax returns.

Meanwhile, the Manhattan DA requesting records as they investigate

potential local crimes related to the 2016 election, Stormy Daniels, all

that stuff you may recall.


So, the Supreme Court could force the release of these records. Trump`s

lawyers have argued that lawmakers here have no legitimate legislative

purpose in seeking them, and thus they`re fighting the congressional



Justice Kagan today suggested, though, the president cannot simply dictate

how Congress performs its oversight of the president.





asking us to do is to put a kind of 10-ton weight on the scales between the

president and Congress, and essentially to make it impossible for Congress

to perform oversight and to carry out its functions where the president is





MELBER: When Congress impeached President Trump, you may recall, we heard

similar arguments.


But the final word in that one rested with a Senate vote, a body controlled

by the president`s party. What`s going on right now in Washington is

totally different.


An independent court will decide whether Trump wins or loses, or if there

is some kind of legal middle ground compromise.


And, of course, in modern history, presidential candidates have typically

shared a lot about their finances and taxes, even when they knew some of

the stuff would look bad.


That`s why Kanye West could famously invoke Republican nominee Mitt Romney

for clever tax dodging, saying – quote – “I`m just trying to protect my

stacks. Mitt Romney don`t pay no tax.”


Well, over several years, Donald Trump also paid no tax, according to an

exhaustive “New York Times” report. But Donald Trump just attacked “The

Times” over that and denied it, but never provided public proof.


Meanwhile, there are other experts who stress that this type of secrecy

leaves open questions about whether Donald Trump as president still owes

foreign governments tons of money, which could compromise U.S. security.


Let`s be clear. This could actually turn out to be the biggest case on

presidential secrecy and power of the whole Trump era, which is really

saying something, with implications for both Donald Trump and, yes, the

presidency itself.


Joining us now, we have two of our favorite legal eagles, the former acting

Solicitor General of the United States Neal Katyal, who has argued more

than 40 cases before the court, although not by telephone conference call,

as was done today, and Maya Wiley, former counsel to the mayor of New York

City, a former civil prosecutor in the Southern District of New York. She

knows her way around some of the New York legal issues that were part of

today`s case.


Thanks to both of you.


Neal, bottom line, based on what we heard, all caveats included, where do

you see the court headed on this case? Could Trump lose?



because the justices today, like in every oral argument, they are just

trying to probe both sides, the weaknesses and the contours of their

positions. So, you can`t always tell.


Having said, that I thought there was incredible skepticism from both the

left and the right of the court about President Trump`s position,

particularly when it came to the case from the Manhattan district

attorney`s office.


That argument was, I think, brilliantly done by the Manhattan DA, and the

Trump lawyers, frankly, fell apart. It was bombast. It was not actual much



They kept saying that this is unprecedented. But, actually, you know, going

all the way back to the founding, starting with President Washington, all

the way up to Nixon and Clinton and Billygate with President Carter, this

information has been turned over.


So I thought it was a very tough argument that Trump tried to advance

through his lawyers, and one that ultimately I didn`t think resonated with

the court.


MELBER: Very striking, because you`re basically telling our viewers that,

based on your knowledge, caveats included, you see the Supreme Court

heading toward ruling against Trump`s secrecy here on his finances, which

would be a big, big deal.


Maya, I played a little bit of Justice Kagan.


I want to play something else, which we don`t usually hear, and that`s

Justice Clarence Thomas, both to reckon with that part of the case, what

those justices were saying, and to remind everyone we`re in this pandemic

era, and it has all sorts of odd outcomes.


And Justice Thomas famously – lawyers know, but I think a lot of news

viewers may know – spent years without ever speaking on the bench at all.

You get on a conference call, and, apparently, he is a little more



So, here is something rare in the news, Justice Thomas discussing whether

or not this could, if Trump loses, this kind of records request could

debilitate a president. Take a look.




CLARENCE THOMAS, U.S. Supreme Court ASSOCIATE JUSTICE: At some point, there

is a straw that breaks the camel`s back.


And it seems as though you`re saying that we should look at these in

isolation, as opposed to in the aggregate.


Why wouldn`t we look at all of them and look at the full effect and whether

at some point it debilitates the president?






MAYA WILEY, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, it was very interesting. Thomas

actively participated. It wasn`t just the one question.


But this comment that seemed to suggest that somehow, if the president does

enough to call so much attention to himself and create so much legal

concern, that there is a lot of attention on him, that, somehow, that might

make it too burdensome for him to actually address all the subpoenas.


It`s a little bit troubling, because it`s a little bit like saying, if you

get yourself into a lot of trouble, you have more of an argument that you

shouldn`t have to answer for it.


So I would be a little bit concerned about the line that I was hearing from

Thomas there.


MELBER: And real quick, do you think he is just more comfortable by phone?


WILEY: It`s the only thing I can think of, because he is very comfortable.


It`s not just that he is participating. He really sounds at ease, and he

thanks people at the end after they have answered his questions. It`s a

pretty striking difference.


MELBER: Yes, it`s a whole different thing.


Neal, you mentioned how some of the arguments, in your view, on the Trump

side fell apart. I want to play some selections from Jay Sekulow. Longtime

BEAT viewers may recall he has been on this show.


And this is from different parts of the argument, to be clear, but gives

some flavor of what the president`s lawyer was arguing and where there may

have been some turbulence. Take a listen.





targeting the president is a violation of the Constitution.


This is a temporary immunity. This is for while the president`s in office,

and we think that is required by the Constitution.



asking for a broadness of immunity that Justice Thomas pointed out is

nowhere in the Constitution.


SEKULOW: Well, he`s the president of the United States.


KAGAN: The president can`t be treated just like an ordinary citizen, but

it`s also true, and indeed a fundamental precept of our constitutional

order, that a president isn`t above the law.




MELBER: We`re a long ways from Ukraine, Neal, and impeachment, but this

back and forth did have echoes of some of the more extraordinary arguments

that were offered on that Senate floor, that maybe we don`t live in a law -

- a lawful democracy at all.


KATYAL: Yes, it`s very interesting to hear Trump lawyers – after all,

Trump claims to be a textualist president who follows the Constitution as

written – making up wholesale immunities that are nowhere in the

Constitution, which is what I think you heard the justices saying.


At the same time, Trump`s argument is a fundamental betrayal of kind of the

most core principle about American law, which is, nobody is above the law.

And that`s what the president – that`s what the Supreme Court said in the

Paula Jones case in 1997.


It`s what they said unanimously in the Nixon tapes case in 1974. It`s what

Chief Justice Marshall said in the Aaron Burr trial in 1807. So President

Trump`s lawyers have this really tough burden of trying to basically say,

oh, don`t pay attention to any of that. All of that`s wrong. This is

somehow really different.


And they just didn`t make the case today. So, I think there may be some

decisions around the edges in terms of Congress and how much they can

subpoena and the like. But I think, you know, the indications are today

that President Trump has lost his ability to keep his financial returns

fully private.


MELBER: Very interesting.


And so the last question I have for both of you is, moving beyond all the

law and all the constitutional details, with about 40 seconds left here,

briefly, what is, in your view, the potential benefit, what is the

constructive outcome?


If we learn, as Neal says, the Supreme Court may rule against Trump, that

means that there is a majority in our system saying this stuff should get

handed over, what is in your view potentially good about that, Neal and

then Maya?


KATYAL: Truth, transparency, the American way. That`s the way our country`s

been since at least 1807 or, actually, since 1792 and President Washington

and the St. Clair thing.


And we shouldn`t deviate from that. We, as Americans, have a fundamental

right to expect this from our leaders.


WILEY: I agree.


It would send the message that a sitting United States president is not

above the law and can`t stop, hopefully, Congress, because I do hope the

Supreme Court recognizes congressional power here, but also a criminal

investigation against many people.


The subpoena said it was investigating, you know, several different people

and entities, that a president can`t stop that because a president doesn`t

like the fact that it might uncover something about him that he doesn`t



MELBER: Copy. Both strong arguments there.


Neal Katyal and Maya Wiley, thank you on a big day at the high court.


We`re going fit in a break, but when we come back, top health officials

breaking with Donald Trump`s message on reopening. What does it mean for

the economy? What does it mean for unemployment, which is surging?


And then later, some big news on Jared Kushner`s famed COVID task force.

Insiders have ripped it as downright chaotic.




MELBER: States are reopening. We`re all talking about it. We`re all

covering it.


More people will be put at risk. That is an inherent fact. But how is it



Let`s dig into it.


There is a new study AP has showing thousands of infections as people do

return to work. It includes surging in meatpacking and poultry processing

plants, plus construction workers.


Now, today, in that hearing that got so much attention that we have been

covering, this is a different aspect of it that we want to get into right

now, Dr. Fauci discussing what he calls a – quote – “moral

responsibility” for employers when workers are out there putting their

lives at risk.




FAUCI: I would think, when you`re calling on people to perform essential

services, you really have almost a moral responsibility to make sure

they`re well-taken care of and well-protected.


And, again, that`s not an official proclamation. That`s just me speaking as

a physician and as human being.




MELBER: I`ll tell you what. We could use people speaking as physicians, as

experts, and as human beings, if by that we mean with a little bit of heart

and moral center, because we`re going through this tough, tough transition

as a nation.


What the doctor is asking us to do is to pay attention to how this is

really going down, that there are two different groups when we talk about

who has to go back out there, reopen the economy for the rest of us.


There is a group of low-income communities which is disproportionately made

of racial minorities that are shouldering the burden of the crisis, which

means, yes, being more likely to get sick, even as you do the essential

stuff that everyone is asking.


And then you`re more likely to also lose a job, and you`re also taking

risks for the people around you, people in your home or community. You

can`t social distance inside your apartment.


A new study also reveals that counties where African-Americans are a

disproportionate share of the population reflect over half of the

coronavirus cases and 60 percent of all COVID deaths.


This is something we have touched on before in our broadcast, but the new

studies add context, revealing factors like employment status and access to

quality health care, not the bare minimum, can be predictors of both

whether you get sick, how you handle it, and whether you die from related

health conditions.


This is as important as it gets. It`s about how we protect each other when

we now see, eyes wide open, what the risks are, and how do we deal with

getting the facts and the information out there – that`s part of what we

do in the news – so that everyone, as a nation and a democracy, can decide

how we do this.


These are issues of wealth and access, and they implicate everything about

how we approach this, including the hopeful road ahead of whether you can

treat and get better treatments or vaccines.


Now, Senator Bernie Sanders was pressing officials on some of that today.





comes, it won`t do somebody any good if they don`t get it. And if they have

to pay a sum of money for it in order to profit the drug companies, that

will not be helpful.


Are you guaranteeing the American people today that that vaccine will be

available to all people regardless of their income?



payment of vaccines is not a responsibility of the FDA, but I`m glad to

take this back to the task force. I share your concern that this needs to

be made available to every American.




MELBER: We`re joined by Heather McGhee, a distinguished senior fellow at

Demos, an MSNBC political contributor and someone who I know who has been

working and leading on these issues for many years.


We wanted to spend some time with you, learn from you, what is it about

this crisis, this pandemic that reveals and exacerbates the underlying

economic and racial disparities in health care and the economy?


What do we do about it?


MCGHEE: You know, this virus doesn`t attack people based on race or class

or gender, but American society does.


And what we are starting to see with sobering clarity is that, if you have

the underlying condition of being a subject of radical inequality, if you

are an immigrant, if you are a person of color, if you are someone who is

working in a low-paid job who is just denied health insurance and paid sick

days by their employer, if you`re an essential worker whom corporations are

now seeing as sacrificial workers, with the complicity and support of

Republicans in Congress and in the White House, then you are on the front

lines of a war that nobody has signed up for.


This is the American inequality that makes us sick being revealed to us

all. It`s also showing right now that American workers who are

disproportionately black, immigrants, and women are the ones who are

knitting this country together with our labor.


And the most important and basic thing that they deserve is the Essential

Workers Bill of Rights, which is a bill that is in the House and Senate, Ro

Khanna and Elizabeth Warren. Most of it was put into Nancy Pelosi`s

proposal today that just came out mere hours ago for the next round of



But it`s basic things. In the exact opposite way than the Republicans are

saying, it`s saying that the onus is on employers to make sure that, if

they are demanding people come back to work, they`re giving them protective

equipment, paid sick days, hazard pay, health care, and a right to have a

voice on the job.


But even more so, I think at this moment we are seeing that so many of the

front-line workers are also people who have a target on their backs because

of racial inequality in this country and because of racism.


You know, Breonna Taylor, who is someone everyone should know, she was in

her home in Louisville, Kentucky. She was a 26-year-old aspiring nurse who

was an EMT, right, exactly who we are depending on right now. And police

charged into her home, shot eight rounds into her while she was sleeping

and at rest, because they were looking for some person on a drug charge who

actually, it turned out, was already in custody.




MCGHEE: It`s heartbreaking.


And that`s just the kind of life that Americans…


MELBER: I`m only jumping in…




MELBER: Well, we`re – and I appreciate that. We`re on a slight tape delay.


I`m jumping in because there is one thing I definitely wanted to include,

Heather. So often, we – we`re hitting what needs to change and the news

hits the negative.


I did want to note, in the Senate Judiciary Committee, that Rebecca Dixon,

who runs the National Employment Law Project, was testifying about these

issues. It`s important that the government is actually doing that as part

of oversight.


So, for your response on the other side, we did want to play this. It`s in

the language of testimony. It would appear dry. If you listen closely, just

as we were to you, you hear the import.


Let`s listen to that briefly.





all the workers on the job now and returning in the next weeks and months

that are risk of illness, black and Latinx workers and other workers of

color, including immigrants, are more likely to be in front-line jobs and

among indigenous people.


These communities have disproportionate rates of illness and death related

to the pandemic.


As detailed in my testimony, far too many employers were slow to follow the

most basic CDC recommendations, such as the use of protective equipment,

handwashing and spacing at least six feet apart.


Let me be clear. Workers are getting sick and dying.




MELBER: Heather, that`s where the moral meets the economic.


The Judiciary Committee looking at these COVID liability issues and who is

actually going to be on the chopping block when you have the economic



I give you the final word.


MCGHEE: There is just one question right now. Whose life are we valuing?

Who are we protecting?


And right now, there is a very clear difference between the response from

the Republican Party and the Democratic Party. And it`s sad to say that it

should be partisan, but that`s what`s going on right now. Republicans are

protecting corporations and Democrats are trying to protect workers and the

American people.


MELBER: Heather, we were running over on time.


I appreciate your clarity. We had you in more than one segment tonight, and

we`re the better for it. I hope you will come back.


MCGHEE: Will do.


MELBER: Thank you.


We fit in a break.


And when we come back, an update on a story we have been tracking, Jared

Kushner`s problems getting medical supplies. He brought in a lot of people

he knew. And he is just speaking out about it.


We have all of that coming back.




MELBER: An update on a story you may have heard about.


Jared Kushner had a very controversial project for this pandemic, and it`s

ending. It was called Project Airbridge, designed to help deliver supplies

to medical workers who were lacking protective equipment.


But it has had a host of problems, a host of investigations, including new

NBC reporting revealing it used federal funds to underwrite shipping for

private companies, offered no-bid contracts, failed to deliver on basically

– quote – “everything they promised.”


Now, if you listen to Jared Kushner, he has a different idea.





stockpile was, it`s supposed to be our stockpile. It`s not supposed to be

state stockpiles that they then use.


So the government, federal government, rose to the challenge, and this is a

great success story.


I`m very confident that we have all the testing we need to start opening

the country.




MELBER: When someone tells you that a giant failure that you can see right

in front of your eyes is a great success, well, you need to keep an eye on



We certainly will continue to do so in our reporting here on THE BEAT.


And we will be right back.






I will be back here at 6:00 p.m. Eastern tomorrow.


Keep it right here, right now on MSNBC.







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