Show: THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER Date: January 7, 2019 Guest: Nick Confessore, Mark Thompson, Eleanor Holmes Norton, Julia Ainsley, John Flannery, Basil Smikle, Christine Quinn, Barry McCaffrey
KATY TUR: That thankfully is all for tonight. We will be back tomorrow with more MTP DAILY.
"THE BEAT" starts right now with Yasmin Vossoughian, in for Ari.
VOSSOUGHIAN: You got it. You got it
TUR: Vossoughian.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Not only did you get that, Katy but you also saw the problem at the border.
TUR: I did. I did. Listen, I got to tell you, I think that`s the best idea that anyone could possibly have.
VOSSOUGHIAN: I agree. Let`s go with it. And I like that I was in your mash by the way. Thanks for that.
TUR: You`re welcome. I heard my voice as well. The mockery goes -- spreads far and wide.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Have a good rest of your night. Thanks, Katy.
TUR: You too.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Hi, everybody. I`m Yasmin Vossoughian, in for Ari.
We`re covering several developing stories. The top intelligence chair saying they`re sharing information with Mueller, and talking about perjury charges.
Also, an NBC News exclusive, exposing the Trump administration`s falsehoods on terrorists at the southern border. And we look at how AOC is trolling the GOP.
But we start with President Trump`s PR offensive on his broken wall promise. Trump scrambling with Democrats, standing tough, and more signs Republicans are cracking on day 17 of the Trump shutdown.
Trump announcing today he will address the nation from the oval office for the first time tomorrow, and he will visit the border on Thursday, saying it is a Humanitarian and National Security crisis. This is a crisis for Trump`s wall talking points, and the Rush Limbaugh base he was scared by. Here are the facts.
A Homeland Security chart showing the number of apprehensions of undocumented immigrants at the southern border. You can see a massive decline over 18 years when 11 percent jump between 2017 and last year. In the last eight years, we`ve seen some of the lowest numbers in history.
Now Trump is shifting his posture on the wall. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have to build a wall. Going to build a wall. We`re going to build a big, beautiful wall.
Steel slats. We don`t use the word wall necessarily.
Great border security with a wall or a slat fence or whatever you want to call it.
I informed my folks to say that we`ll build a steel barrier, steel. It will be made out of steel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VOSSOUGHIAN: What is it? That`s the question. Democrats were upping the pressure, planning to block all bills until Mitch McConnell ends the shutdown.
With me now is Mark Thompson, radio host of SiriusXM`s Make It Plain Show and Nick Confessore, political reporter for "The New York Times".
Nick, I`ll start with you on this one. I feel as if this shutdown is literally a reality show, it seems. From the announcement to visiting the border to the address from the oval office that we`re going to hear about tomorrow night.
The issue here is this is a reality show where lives are at stake. And as of Friday, people aren`t going to get paid anymore. I mean if the Trump administration was actually a PR company, they would be doing quite well right now. But, in fact, they`re running a country, and we are nearing the longest government shutdown in history if this continues on over the weekend.
NICK CONFESSORE, POLITICAL REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, what`s happening here is that the crisis that is being created because of the shutdown is going to far outweigh the crisis at the border, which is not a security crisis, but a humanitarian crisis.
The government`s own statistics show that terrorists are coming in through airports, not through the southern border. And yet we`re going to have worse security at airports because DHS workers are walking out because they aren`t getting paid.
We are now right now captive to the president`s idea of himself. If the president went out tomorrow and said look, "I just want some border security money, let`s figure out the details", he`d have a deal in an hour. But he wants to say he built a wall, and Democrats refuse to let him say he built a wall, even though everyone kind of supports having some kind of a barrier and some kind of security.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Mark, who is the president trying to address in this oval office address that`s coming tomorrow night? Who does he want to hear his appeal tomorrow evening?
REV. MARK THOMPSON, HOST, MAKE IT PLAIN ON SIRIUSXM: The very still gullible base that he intends to distract from the story you teased out earlier, what`s going on with Mueller and the whole intelligence committee. He made a fool out of himself.
He promised a wall, Mexico would build a wall. Now we`re down to steel slats, made of steel. And he doesn`t have it.
So he`s even saying to this base, we`ve heard him say that part of the wall is already done. Nobody knows what he`s talking about. Sarah Sanders is going on television, quoting the long fellow poem about Paul Revere. The immigrants are coming, one if by land and two if by sea. All of this is true he made up.
But what he may do tomorrow night, may very well, we may see for the first time the intersection between the Willie Horton strategy and the WMD strategy because coming after immigrants the way he does is nothing but racial fearmongering.
And then just like WMD, creating this national emergency where there isn`t one, there is no crisis. That`s what we have.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Well, it`s good that you bring this up, sort of this national emergency that there isn`t one, because oftentimes when you hear about a president giving an oval office address, it`s because of a national emergency, right?
You think about George W. Bush when he gave some of his oval office addresses. One of those was after the September 11th terror attack where he gave an oval office address. I think many of us remember that oval office address.
President Barack Obama after the British Petroleum oil spill. He gave an oval office address as well. The president is trying to create an emergency here when there isn`t necessarily an emergency.
And we`re going to have Julia Ainsley on later on in the show to talk about the numbers of the people that are actually crossing the border and who is actually being apprehended at the border. When you have Sarah Huckabee Sanders going on "Fox News" and saying we are apprehending terrorists at the border, in fact, that`s not the case. It`s not the border, as you said. It`s at the airport.
CONFESSORE: Well, this is a bet, first of all, to claim or try to claim some of the gravitas of the oval office in this setting. You saw his press conference this week. I was a disaster. It was a word salad.
And what they want to do is put him on a camera in the oval office with some prepared remarks to get on message and get back on their message of which is there is a crisis here. You know, it`s an important emergency. There are people coming through the border. Watch out, be afraid. That`s their message.
But the issue they have here is that the crisis here is one they`ve created. The person who wants the wall the most is the president. He is saying, "I`m not going to move on your government until I get my wall." That`s a losing proposition for his party in the long-term.
VOSSOUGHIAN: What do you think, Mark, the president is gaining by putting so much attention at the border and on this immigration crisis that he is saying it is, this immigration crisis? And not -- and taking away from what`s happening within the government right now?
THOMPSON: I don`t think he`s gaining anything, because history has shown, you know, shutdowns have never worked out for those who perpetrated them. I mean Gingrich got ridden out of town in the shutdowns of the `90s.
I think he is fooling himself. Look back at the caravan. That was supposed to have been an emergency, and everybody was coming on this caravan. That went away, and it definitely didn`t help in the midterms. So I don`t see --
VOSSOUGHIAN: But he wants to make it seem like he is giving in by saying steel slats. He`s saying, "Look, I`m giving to it the Democrats because they don`t necessarily want -- they don`t want a concrete wall. They just want steel slats." "It seems like they like steel better", as he said on the south lawn yesterday afternoon.
THOMPSON: But that won`t work as long as the government is shut down. The majority of American people blame him for the shutdown. He is the one acting like a spoiled child.
So he can go to slats, fence, whatever he wants to call it. As long as the government is shut down, he`s going to pay a price for it.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Go ahead, Nick.
CONFESSORE: What you`re seeing here is I think the president and his team are trying to back into a win because guess what? There are already steel slats on the border. There is already a fence on parts of the border, and a wall on parts of the border, and surveillance on parts of the border. The border is protected.
And the big thing as propounded as not true which is that there is some kind of an open border on the south there. What is happening is that there is some kind of refurbishment of the steel slats in some places. You can claim that`s already happening.
But I think he is trying to get himself to something that`s already there so he can call it a wall and walk away and say I won.
VOSSOUGHIAN: All right. I want to bring in Democratic Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton of D.C.
Congresswoman, thanks so much for joining us this evening. Very much appreciate it. I first want to get your reaction to the president`s announcement that he is going to be giving an address from the oval office tomorrow evening at 9:00 p.m. What do you want to hear from the president tomorrow night?
REP. ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), WASHINGTON, D.C.: Well, first, let me indicate what the significance of this address is. If you look at the polls, the president is losing. He is going to give the address because he`s trying to get the American people where they are not now.
And one way to understand this is to see the wall crumbling around him. For example, maybe not enough people care about Section 8 Housing where people get a third of their housing from the federal government or even food stamps.
But the president has already caved on IRS funding and guess what? He can`t. You can`t pick and choose. We`ll give you back your IRS funding, but we won`t do your housing funding. That`s what he`s trying to do now. That money would have to come out of the general fund.
The wall with IRS funding may be the biggest crack yet in the wall. We`ve got to stop talking about the wall as if that is some kind of a metaphor. Let`s look at what in fact we`re talking about. The sides are nowhere near far apart.
When I taught as a tenured professor of law, if I put some first-year law students, they would see all of the elements on the table for a compromise. The Democrats and the Republicans aren`t far away at all, and the president himself has stopped using the word "wall" and he is saying essentially call it what you may.
With the IRS funding, I think we`re going to begin to see the president do what he is doing tonight, and that is to try to shore up even his own base and certainly the American people who have long left him on the question of the wall.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Congresswoman, the president said that he can understand the plight of federal workers that aren`t going to be receiving paychecks come January 11, these people who are living paycheck to paycheck, some of which are getting paid $500 every time they see that paycheck and now they don`t necessarily know how they`re going to be able to pay their rent or keep their lights on, and they`re going to have to choose which to do.
Do you buy it from the president that he understands this plight? Do you think the president understands the plight of these federal workers that are not going to be getting paid because of this government shutdown so far as it goes on?
NORTON: Well, these federal workers all over the country have a good number of them in my own city and in this region. He doesn`t care beans about them. He doesn`t even talk about them very much because he recognizes that that is, and he calls them Democrats, that`s a small number of them.
That`s why I`m looking now to the spreading of the economy, to the spreading of the sectors, because the federal workers won`t do it and haven`t done it and couldn`t possibly do it by themselves.
But as you see this begin to have its effect on the economy itself, and that`s what you`re beginning to see, the president is going to be forced. And I agree with your -- with my other colleagues to use what is already up there to say look, I won. We`re back to normal.
VOSSOUGHIAN: We know that the president has -- how do I say this? Not necessarily told the truth when it comes to the border wall and when it comes to immigration. He has put a lot of numbers out there that have been disproven, to say the least.
I want to play for you some of that and then we`ll talk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We have a tremendous medical problem coming into our country, communicable disease. Tremendous problems. People don`t want to talk about it.
Remember drugs. The drugs are pouring into this country. They don`t go through the ports of entry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VOSSOUGHIAN: Wrong after wrong after wrong. I mean it is astounding the fact that the president puts these numbers out there and says these types of things that can then be fact-checked publicly.
Mark, I`ll go with you on this one. Why does the president consistently do this sort of thing?
THOMPSON: Well, because, frankly, he has his own television network that enables it and a particular host on there that enables it. So I think that helps him do it. And his base is willing to be gullible in that regard.
You know, we look at what`s happening with the farmers. I think they`re even affected by it. They`re already affected by the tariffs but yet these are some people who still support him, even through the shutdown. It`s, again, people acting against their own interests.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Nick, the fact is a case can be made for the situation at the border. A case can be made for changes that need to be made to immigration in this country without creating falsehoods. And it seems that the president doesn`t necessarily understand that, that the cases can be made without saying the things he goes on to say.
CONFESSORE: Well, he isn`t making it. Look, I think a lot of Americans support immigration as part of our tradition. People don`t like broken immigration. And people don`t like kind of crossing the border illegally. There are solutions to that problem.
But the problem is getting better. The problem for him as a politician is his entire career is based on the argument that it`s getting worse. So you can`t campaign on immigration as a national security crisis if the facts are actually, it`s pretty much under control.
There is a problem we`ve got to deal with here, and the dreamers are here, and that has to be settled. If your argument is that it`s actually a terrible problem, what do you do? You amp up the rhetoric that there are vectors of disease and crime and drug smuggling.
You can go back to his very first speech as a candidate in Trump Tower and find him hitting all of those notes.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Yes. Congresswoman, last to you on this. Do you think it`s smart that the Democrats hold out to the very end until the president bends on this?
NORTON: Yes. Democrats have looked at the polls. They also see how vulnerable the president is on it, and they see him now trying to get his act together by going on national television.
It does seem to me that the face-saving is going to come after that. We see the face-saving beginning already with the -- again, I repeat, once people don`t get their IRS checks, remember, the government is holding your money. Almost everybody has put in more money in order to get it back.
Once you see that begin to happen, that covers the entire, virtually the entire population. You`re going to begin to see the effects on the economy well beyond our talking about the wall and the rest.
And that is what is going to bring this down, not the wall, not even a compromise. The compromise is already there for any fool to pick up and do.
VOSSOUGHIAN: All right, Mark Thompson, Nick Confessore, and Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton, thank you guys all.
Ahead everybody, NBC News exclusive reporting that blows up statements made by Trump administration officials about terrorists crossing the southern border. It comes after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS WALLACE, ANCHOR, FOX NEWS: They`re not coming across the southern border, Sarah. They`re coming and they`re being stopped at airports.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VOSSOUGHIAN: Also, a federal judge with a blunt warning. Cut the attacks on Bob Mueller. And how the youngest woman ever elected to Congress is rattling the GOP with her progressive push.
And at the Golden Globes, Christian Bale thanks Satan for inspiring his role as Dick Cheney. And there is a reaction from some you might not expect.
I`m Yasmin Vossoughian, in for Ari Melber. And you`re watching THE BEAT on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VOSSOUGHIAN: Welcome back, everybody. New tonight, NBC News exclusively reporting that U.S. Customs and Border Protector encountered only six immigrants who were known and suspected terrorists at the southern border, contradicting the Trump administration who falsely said that number was at 4,006, not 4,000.
And here`s just how bad it`s getting. A "Fox News" host fact checks Sarah Sanders on live television.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We know that roughly nearly 4,000 known or suspected terrorists come into our country illegally, and we know that our most vulnerable point of entry is our southerner borders.
WALLACE: Wait, wait, wait because I know this statistic. I didn`t know you were going to use it, but I studied up on this. Do you know where those 4,000 people come or where they`re captured? Airports.
SANDERS: Not always. Certainly a large number --
WALLACE: Airports. The state department says there haven`t been any terrorists coming across the southern border from Mexico.
SANDERS: Certainly, it`s by air, it`s by land --
WALLACE: They`re not coming across the southern border, Sarah. They`re coming and they`re being stopped at airports.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VOSSOUGHIAN: All right. Joining me now NBC national security and justice reporter Julia Ainsley, who reported that exclusive story.
Julia, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. Talk to me about these numbers that you`re reporting. What are they telling you?
JULIA AINSLEY, NATIONAL SECURITY AND JUSTICE REPORTER, NBC NEWS: Sarah Sanders was right when she said that the vast majority come through the airports but that`s because it`s so infinitesimal who is actually coming through the southern border. We broke these numbers down.
This is just the first half of fiscal year `18. So that would be the beginning of October 2017 through the end of March 20. And only six non- American citizens or residents were stopped by CBP at ports of entry along the southern border. There were more actually, Yasmin, who were Americans. It totaled 41.
And so actually, we`re actually seeing more Americans than non-Americans who are being stopped. And let`s not think that these are people who have been arrested or charged with terrorism. That`s a statute that they would have to prove in a court of law. These are just people that are on a database.
It could be that their name simply matches up with someone on a database. It could be that they have family ties to someone in an organization, but it is very rare, and this number shows how rare it is that anyone in a terrorist organization or anyone coming in to do any kind of harm or even be suspected on being on one of these watch lists would come through the southern border.
The other number that`s higher is the northern border, Yasmin. We saw that 91 arrests and 41 of those were non-American on the northern border. That`s an area we really don`t hear this administration talk about at all.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Julia, have you reached out to the White House on this? Have we heard anything from them?
AINSLEY: Yes, we have. I`ve been in touch with DHS throughout the day. Of course, this was law enforcement sensitive. We feel comfortable here at NBC News going with this because it`s a topic that the administration has talked a lot about.
So we want to be able to get out what the truth on this topic. But it`s certainly something that is sensitive, and we took all of that into account as we reported it.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Hey, quickly, Julia, do you know the timing of these six arrests? Because obviously the Trump administration has been touting this 4,000 number, not quite knowing where they`re getting these numbers from, but wondering if you know the timing of these six arrests that you`re reporting now.
AINSLEY: Yes. So first of all, they`re not even arrests. They`re just encounters. Some of these people could have been stopped, questioned, and then sent through. So these are just encounters happened to have names that would be on this database but this would have happened over a six- month period. Just six people over six months --
VOSSOUGHIAN: Wow.
AINSLEY: -- from October of -- the first half of the fiscal year 2018. So that`s the beginning of October 2017 through the end of March 2018.
And Sarah Huckabee Sanders has been saying that 4,000 people who are known or suspected terrorists came through in that year. So if you follow the trend of six, it would be pretty hard to figure out how you could get to 4,000 by the end of that year.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Kind of a big gap to say the least.
AINSLEY: Yes.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Julia Ainsley, thank you so much. Appreciate it.
AINSLEY: Thank you.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Ahead, everybody, Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez is trolling the GOP and already driving them crazy.
But first, the Russia probe and a federal judge Bob Mueller today rebuking a critic of Bob Mueller. We`re going to be back in 30 seconds. Keep it here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VOSSOUGHIAN: Welcome back, everybody. A federal judge sending a powerful message today. Cut the attacks on Bob Mueller.
It came after lawyers for a Russian company charged in the Mueller probe attacks the Mueller team in profanity-laced court documents. At one point even quoting "animal house." The judge responding today, telling the lawyers to "knock it off". That is Mueller is also getting backing from newly empowered House Democrats. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: We hope as one of our first acts to make the transcripts of our witnesses fully available to special counsel for any purpose, including the bringing of perjury charges if necessary against any of the witnesses. But also to see the evidence that they contain and help flesh out the picture for the special counsel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VOSSOUGHIAN: If you`ve been following, you knew that was coming. The new House Intel Chair Adam Schiff would not say if he had any concerns about any particular witnesses lying. But Eric Swalwell pointed the finger directly at long-time Trump associate Roger Stone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D), CALIFORNIA: I think Roger Stone lied to our committee and he had to send a number of letters amending his testimony. There are others like him. We just want to get those transcripts to Bob Mueller as soon as possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VOSSOUGHIAN: Roger Stone, though, has maintained he told the truth to Congress, but there are signs Mueller is planning more charges, extending the grand jury for another six months.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCHIFF: Well, he`s clearly not done. There is more work for the grand jury. Clearly, there are other potential charges that he must be considering. There is no purpose for a grand jury I think otherwise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VOSSOUGHIAN: All right. With me, former U.S. Attorney Joyce Vance and former Federal Prosecutor John Flannery.
Joyce, I`m going to start with you on this one. Couldn`t the House Democrats really do a lot more to help Mueller or is this really about messaging here from them?
JOYCE VANCE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: No. I think that there is substance behind this. We`ve already seen that it`s possible to indict folks for lying to a committee, whether it`s in the House or the Senate.
And Roger Stone looks like someone Mueller has been carefully examining. There are other people who as additional House subcommittees go through testimony that was taken in front of them, for instance, the standing select Committee on Intelligence, they may provide Mueller with additional people to take a hard look at for perjury charges.
VOSSOUGHIAN: So let`s look at that, John. We know Michael Cohen has been charged with perjury --
JOHN FLANNERY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Exactly.
VOSSOUGHIAN: -- for lying to Congress. So do we expect Mueller to go after others here?
FLANNERY: Well, I think so. And one of the things that we learned December 7 when he was brought up on these other charges for lying to the Senate committees was that he made a public statement that was characterized as a message to everyone else to get on board with the message that he was going to give behind closed doors.
So Michael Cohen`s testimony will be compared in an un-redacted form with the testimony of others in an un-redacted form and give us a lead on the connection, if you will, just as the Roger Stone piece will between Russia and the Trump project or the Moscow Tower project and Trump himself. And I think that that feeds into -- there is like a three-part access point here it seems to me.
There is the Trump project in Moscow. There is the June 9 meeting at which whether or not he had communications with Don Jr. who was also a witness. And then the third part is what Trump did to cover up that meeting and claim, despite what his son knew and had been disclosing that it was only about adoption. So I think there is a very important and significant series of pieces there.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Joyce, I want to remind people sort of who has been interviewed by the House Intelligence Community. Let`s bring up that list, guys.
Starting with Michael Cohen, Don Trump Jr., Jared Kushner, Hope Hicks. We talked about Roger Stone already. Who do you expect here to be most vulnerable with regards to what Adam Schiff is saying and bringing this testimony to the Mueller probe?
VANCE: So Roger Stone and Jerome Corsi have already publicly said that they expect to be indicted. There are even documents that indicate that might be true.
But beyond that, I`d add an additional Trump Tower meeting. There is this August 2016 meeting with Donald Trump Jr. and a man named George Nader who represented some of the Middle Eastern princes, represented Saudi and UAE princes and made an offer of assistance to the campaign based on his relationship with them in that meeting.
And, of course, Donald Trump Jr. and Erik Prince have both testified on the Hill, in House subcommittees that there were no offers of assistance from foreign governments that they were aware of. I would look for that meeting to perhaps be targeted as well.
Prosecutors in this situation, you know, perjury is not easy to prove. You need to prove that the lie is intentional and also that it`s material. So in a case like this where you`re directly asked about assistance from foreign countries, a material fact, and you talk about meetings that you had but you exclude an important one, that`s a situation that`s ripe for a little bit of attention from Mueller`s team.
VOSSOUGHIAN: So, John, how does Mueller necessarily go about proving something like that, that this perjury was intentional, if in fact let`s say Don Jr. testified in front of the House Intel Committee and lied about something or misled the committee about the meeting, let`s say, in Trump Tower and whether or not his father knew or did not know about the meeting with Natalia Veselnitskaya?
How does Mueller prove that, that he intentionally lied?
FLANNERY: Well, the best way is you get as much testimony as you can in statements of what people say, and you look at the inconsistencies. And you look at how that compares to documents, how that compares to the testimony of others, documents are good, how it compares with tape recordings for example. And then you then you judge that if a person`s making a false statement you can contradict. It`s evidence of consciousness of guilt. So what is their motive? What are they`re hiding? And perjury is a very interesting crime because if you are testifying inconsistently under oath, that`s perjury if it`s material. And so -- because two inconsistent statements can`t both be true, and so that that`s one way to look at it.
But what they`ve done with Michael Cohen, for instance, is they did everything they could to corroborate him and they`ve said so with witnesses and tapes and exhibits and documents and evidence that I believe has not yet been made public that they have sitting there. So that`s how he does it. That`s how he`s done it his whole life. He has more experience perhaps than very many prosecutors in America and very difficult cases. And so I think that his dream team sometime in the next several weeks may do Roger Stone. We might see Don Jr. We might see a whole series of people in the -- in the hot seat, and I think that`s what we`re looking for.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Joyce, just quickly. How different it -- is it to testify in front of the House Intel committee that was then Republican lead now Democrat-led versus being interviewed by the Mueller team?
VANCE: I think getting a friendly fire interview as opposed to a hard press from prosecutors you know, it really ups the ante. The gold standard for evidence in a perjury case will be someone who was in the room when the lie was made and knows it was a lie and is now cooperating with prosecutors. Mueller has that here. George Nader is reported to be cooperating. We know that General Flynn`s cooperation has been very highly accorded by the Mueller investigation. He too was privy to some of these conversations that took place. So I expect those interviews with the Mueller team will only be a precursor to prosecution for some of these --
VOSSOUGHIAN: Well, with this six months grand jury extension I expect to see a lot more. John Flannery, Joyce Vance, thank you both.
FLANNERY: Thank you.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Still to come, everybody. I`m going to talk live to a four- star general warning tonight there will be resignations if Trump orders and military to build his wall. Plus, what Joe Biden telling allies about a 2020 run and AOC trolling the GOP and pushing a plan to raise taxes on the rich. All that plus news on Beto O`Rourke. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VOSSOUGHIAN: All right, news on multiple Democrats behind 2020. Today, the New York Times reporting that Joe Biden is nearing a decision about whether to run and that he is "skeptical other Democrats thinking about challenging Trump can win." One of those Democrats could be Texas Democrat Beto O`Rourke who was flirting with a 2020 run. Tonight, the Wall Street Journal reporting he is planning a tour film with stops outside the Lone Star State. Certainly looks like a trial run to me.
Meantime, Senator Elizabeth Warren making four stops in Iowa this weekend talking about income inequality and political corruption. The other big story in Democratic politics tonight, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortes posting this video on her first day in office trolling critics on the right. Over 19 million views already. She`s getting the 60 minutes treatment. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D), NEW YORK: I think that it only has ever been radicals that have changed this country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you call yourself radical?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yes. You know, if that`s what radical means, call me a radical. When you have a progressive tax rate system, your tax rate you know, let`s say from zero to $75,000 maybe ten percent or 15 percent etc. But once you get to like the tippy tops on your ten millionth dollar, sometimes you see tax rates as high as 60 or 70 percent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORTEZ: So with that tax proposal, 70 percent on income above $10 million sparking debate, getting support from Nobel Prize-Winning Economist Paul Krugman and scorn on Fox.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think they care. They simply want to stick it to the rich and stick it, President Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most successful people will pull back and say I don`t have to do anything. After creating more jobs, starting more businesses, and I`m going to pull back.
SEAN HANNITY, HOST, FOX NEWS CHANNEL: That is the rise of socialism. That is the false promise of government saving you from every aspect of life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VOSSOUGHIAN: All right, joining me now, Basil Smikle Democratic Strategist. I got that. OK, Christine Quinn former Speaker of the New York City Council. That`s easier. Thank you, Christine. I have a difficult name too so I`ll give you that. And vice-chair of the New York State Democratic Party and Susan Del Percio, GOP Strategist and MSNBC Political Analyst.
Basil, I`m going to start with you on this one. I want to stick with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez interview that we just did because we left with that so we`ll start with that here, and Paul Krugman on what he says about this new tax plan that she`s proposing. There is a piece that he -- that he wrote in The New York Times op-ed section. Part of it says this. It`s a policy nobody has ever implemented aside from the U.S. for 35 years after World War two including the most successful period of economic growth in our history.
So Paul Krugman is saying this. A guy that knows the economy more than anybody, and he`s saying this could actually work. 70 percent tax rate on people that make over $10 million.
BASIL SMIKLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yes. It`s -- I mean, she says, if do you think that`s radical, call me too radical. And you know what, there have been reports that have been done that said this can actually contribute tens of millions, almost seventy to the trillions. Almost $73 trillion over ten years to our -- to our bottom line if it actually gets implemented.
The concern is, A, I think it actually can work. But B, the concern is that those people will actually change their behavior. That`s the downside of it. So the question is can you actually collect all of the money that you think you are from this -- from the taxes.
CHRISTINE QUINN, FORMER SPEAKER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: You know, I want to applaud the Congresswoman because she has an idea, a really good idea, a green new deal. And she`s putting out a plan of how to pay for it. We saw a tax cut that among other things has taken our deficit up $2 trillion. The President never put out a plan to how he would pay for the tax cut that he got through.
Here you have a woman on her basically first day in office acting responsibly with a plan to pay for a new deal as opposed to the President who $2 trillion it`s like nothing. He didn`t have to show any cost savings to offset the tax cut and that`s bad government.
VOSSOUGHIAN: What do you make, Susan, of this AOC phenomenon, it seems, getting the 60 minutes turn? I mean, there are people on both the left and the right that are criticizing her. It`s not just the right, it`s the left also they`re saying, you know what, spend a little time in Washington, spend some time in office before you, you know, start putting policies out there like this one.
SUSAN DEL PERCIO, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, but the right just kind of baited her with that dancing video. Like of course she dancing when she was in college. That`s fine. And I actually think her response was perfect.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Got a heck of a lot of these words.
DEL PERCIO: Now, when it comes to releasing or proposing a tax increase of 70 percent on those making $10 million or more, I`m pretty sure politically speaking there`s a lot of peaked Democrats in Washington who don`t want that to be the conversation one heading into 2020 which l know we`re talking about and also with the looming shutdown and everything else going on.
So I think she does -- the interview went very well for her, but I think it`s time for her to learn the business. Because she made a quote -- she made a comment there that it doesn`t matter what the facts are here or there, once or twice, it`s the way you feel about it. Now --
VOSSOUGHIAN: I said, morality over -- morality over facts.
DEL PERCIO: And agree. Like Donald Trump and his comments are a reflection of him which I think are horrible. But this thing goes for her. She`s got to get the facts down. She`s got -- she`s got to learn the way of how to operate and respect that there is a process.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Let me just -- let me also just play this down, and I want to get to the 2020 stuff too because we have a lot to talk about with regards 2020. I don`t want to spend the entire time on AOC. But I do want to play this sound from Whoopi Goldberg on The View who was also pretty critical of her and you wouldn`t necessarily expect it from someone like her. Let`s watch this.
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WHOOPI GOLDBERG, ACTRESS: You just got in there, and I know you got lots of good ideas, but I would encourage you to sit still for a minute and learn the job before you start pooping on people and what they`ve done. You got to do something too.
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QUINN: Well, look, you can`t disagree with don`t criticize your colleagues, right? You can`t disagree with that. That sound advice from what be period. But look, this idea that you should wait your turn, I find that offensive. If women waited their turn, if LGBT people, if people of color, if disabled people waited their turn, we`re still be at the back of the line.
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VOSSOUGHIAN: Wait, wait, wait your turn, everybody. Wait your turn. Basil, go ahead.
SMIKLE: There`s a reason that Congress is the first branch of government mentioned in the Constitution, and the fact is it`s probably the most traditional, also probably the hardest to change. Having said that, if she`s going to try to create a movement within the chamber in the way that she`s tried to do outside of the chamber, I actually think that that`s good writ large for everybody. I don`t like the idea of her constantly being reprimanded. That actually does bother me a lot.
VOSSOUGHIAN: OK, I need to head to Biden and Beto in the two minutes that we have left. So first Biden, Susan, is he going to run and he thinks he`s the only person that could beat Trump?
DEL PERCIO: Well, the problem I have is with any candidate that needs to be talked into it or doing it to be you know, the savior of any party. And that candidate is not the one you want running. I don`t care which part you`re from. You want someone who wants this more than anything, who doesn`t need to be talked into it or thinks they`re going to be the savior. So I think that that topic is --
VOSSOUGHIAN: But isn`t that what an exploratory committee is? Am I popular enough? Do people like me?
DEL PERCIO: No. An exploratory -- no -- yes, to a certain extent. It`s what is Elizabeth Warren has done which I say kudos to her she got out there first. She`s testing the water. She`s bringing her message out right now to the people of Iowa and you know, that`s for the Democrats to decide. But the only way you run for president is that you actually run for president and you don`t get recruited in your and saying oh I`ll be the party savior.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Yes, let`s talk Beto O`Rourke quickly too. It looks like he`s going to launch a road trip through Texas hitting up community colleges, talking to young people, seeing if you know, what the issues are that they`re -- that they`re our most important to them, and also if he has likability, if he is popular, if he could do it if he wants to run for president here. What do you make of that Beto O`Rourke sort of hitting up these community colleges? Is he could really try to go after the young vote seeing if he has it?
QUINN: Well, clearly if he`s going to community colleges, that`s his focus, right? I mean it`s not about talking to the professor`s.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Right.
QUINN: It`s about talking to the students and seeing how deep --
VOSSOUGHIAN: But does it make sense?
QUINN: Well, look, I have -- congratulations to Beto O`Rourke. He ran an amazing race. He did great. But I have a little bit of an issue with the Beto O`Rourke phenomenon because Stacey Abrams did better than he did. But you know --
VOSSOUGHIAN: It`s a point that`s been made a lot.
QUINN: Because we`re told he`s a white guy. Let`s see what it is. Nobody is talking about Stacey Abrams, nobody is talking about Andrew Gillum because one is a woman and a person of color and the other is a person of color. But there`s a white guy does well and all sudden he`s our savior. That`s not his fault but we have to as Americans talk about that because it underscores the racism and sexism that still exists in the society and is rampant in American politics.
SMIKLE: Which leads me to the point that so many of the polls show that the top of the ticket is voters prefer three white males in running for president. And for someone like me was burning a party by Jesse Jackson, by Ron Brown and became the first African American head of the DNC, Shirley Chisholm and of course Barack Obama, I want to see more diversity on the ticket. If it`s Biden, let`s just say. He`ll be hard to beat but not impossible to beat. I think the number two position, the V.P. position is where you`ll start to see a lot more conversation about diversity and so on and so forth.
VOSSOUGHIAN: They`re going to kill me, but kind of diverse ticket beat President Trump?
SMIKLE: Yes.
QUINN: Yes.
DEL PERCIO: But that`s also assuming that President Trump is going to run which I do not believe he will. I`m just saying.
(CROSSTALK)
VOSSOUGHIAN: Let`s extend this show for another hour. Let`s keep going. Basil Smikle, Susan del Percio -- I got it right -- and Christine Quinn -- Susan del Percio and Christine Quinn, thank you, guys. Ahead, move over Darth Vader. There is a new Dick Cheney meme going viral and it comes from Christian Bale`s and Golden Globes speech. But first Trump now threatening to declare a national emergency to get this wall. We have the facts with a special guest next.
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I may declare a national emergency depending on what`s going to happen over the next few days.
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VOSSOUGHIAN: So Trump threatening to declare national emergency if Congress doesn`t fund his border wall allowing him to assign the military to build it without Congress. White House and Defense Department lawyers met to talk about the emergency idea. Today the top Democrat on the Armed Services Committee saying this.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably the worst public policy idea I`ve heard in about ten years. It would be horrific. Now the question that I was asked is could he do it? Yes. The President has broad emergency power authority.
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VOSSOUGHIAN: So Trump`s authority is not debatable but how he would pay for it is the debate. One legal scholar writing that using soldiers to build the wall would be a "federal crime." With me is General Barry McCaffrey, a former battlefield commander and retired U.S. Army four-star general. General, thank you so much for joining us this evening. I appreciate it. Is there a national security emergency at the Southern Border?
BARRY MCCAFFREY, RETIRED U.S. ARMY FOUR STAR GENERAL: No, of course not. We`ve got a broad policy of asylum seekers and immigrants which is ill- thought-out and unworkable. Look, the border already has around 700 miles of some obstacle plan. Arguably, it could use another 300 miles as an assistance to the Border Patrol.
Congress doesn`t agree. Congress has power of the purse. It`s impossible for me to believe that an order by Mr. Trump to the Pentagon would be legally enforceable in the court system. It would divert in theory billions of dollars appropriated by Congress for military training and maintenance and deployment activities and diverted to a different function.
Normally, when you reprogram any dollars in the federal government, you have to go back to the House Appropriations Committee and request permission. There`s no way that would happen. So I think this is mostly a political gesture.
VOSSOUGHIAN: So if the president were to declare a national emergency here, I firmly understand you think there could be resignations of a high- level.
MCCAFFREY: I`m not sure where that came from. I would doubt it. Look, I think the way a normal government works, and this one isn`t normal, when the White House issued an order to the Pentagon, it normally comes having been staffed in the interagency. So you`d already have an attorney general opinion that it was legal, State Department have ruled on it, the White House General Counsel and the DOD General Council. And if there was a notion that it was patently illegal, they`d say so. And at that point, you`d have an immediate constitutional crisis.
I don`t think ordering soldiers to put up barriers on the U.S. border is in any way necessarily illegal. It may be stupid but it`s not illegal. I think the diversion of funds is the crux of the issue. The President does not have dictatorial powers to spend money.
VOSSOUGHIAN: What position would this put U.S. military on if you were to declare a state of emergency?
MCCAFFREY: Well, I think it would. It`s happened before. It happens a lot. The --any president has very broad ill-defined emergency powers. I mean, we seen the U.S. Armed Forces committed to urban riots. We`ve seen them ordered to deliver the mail, to support hurricane disasters. So the President has pretty broad powers. And congress intermittently tries to constrain him, to define them, to clarify them. It doesn`t work.
You really want the President to have those kinds of emergency authority. The problem is you need a president who has good judgment, who seeks counsel, who consults Congress, and who has a sense of integrity. If you don`t, you`re going to end up with some impulsive, bizarre orders. And I think the Congressman you just interviewed had it right. This would be an incredibly bad policy decision. I think it would be immediately blocked. And again, it is not going to happen, but it is a political stunt right now in my view.
VOSSOUGHIAN: All right, General Barry McCaffrey, thank you so much. Good seeing you, General.
MCCAFFREY: Good to be with you.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Christian Bale, Dick Cheney, and Satan. That`s next.
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VOSSOUGHIAN: Welcome back. Christian Bale took home the Golden Globe last night for his incredible performance playing Dick Cheney in the movie Vice. And his acceptance speech drew some big laughs from the crowd.
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CHRISTIAN BALE, ACTOR: I will be cornering the market on charisma-free -- what do you think, Mitch McConnell next? That could be good, would it? Thank you to Satan for giving me inspiration how to play this role.
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VOSSOUGHIAN: Wow, 2019 starting off with a bang. That does it for me. Catch me tomorrow morning at 5 a.m. Eastern on "MORNING JOE FIRST LOOK." "HARDBALL" starts right now.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END