TODD: We`ll be back tomorrow with more MTP DAILY.
"THE BEAT" starts right now. Ayman Mohyeldin is in for Ari. So Ayman, I need to build a bigger show but we still only got an hour. You probably do too but good luck, man.
AYMAN MOHYELDIN, MSNBC HOST: I was going to say I don`t know if an hour is going to be enough, Chuck. It is a busy, busy news night here in New York. Thanks very much, my friend.
I`m Ayman Mohyeldin in for Ari Melber. Tonight, the legal pressure on Donald Trump is boiling over. There`s a brand new criminal investigation into the Trump inauguration. I`m going to talk to the "Wall Street Journal" reporter who broke this story a short while ago.
Also, NBC News reporting that Donald Trump was in the room for secret talks about hush money payments to women. Plus, Trump now responding for the very first time to the Michael Cohen sentencing. We`ll have that for you. And conflicting reports tonight about whether Jared Kushner is being considered for chief of staff.
But we start with the "Wall Street Journal" reporting on a possible pay- for-play probe into Trump`s inauguration. Federal prosecutors now investigating whether the inaugural committee misspent a portion of the $107 million it raised from donations. Investigators trying to determine if the committee essentially sold access to the incoming Trump administration. Now, the probe being done by the same federal office, the Southern District of New York, that prosecuted Michael Cohen.
"The Journal" reports the investigation partly arises out of materials that were seized in the federal probe of Cohen. And the prosecutors reportedly obtained a recorded conversation between Mr. Cohen and Stephanie Winston Wolkoff, a former advisor to Melania Trump who worked on the inaugural events. "In the recording, Ms. Wolkoff expressed concern about how the inaugural committee was spending money", according to a person familiar with the Cohen investigation.
Investigators have also reportedly asked Richard Gates, a former campaign aide who has pleaded guilty to lying in the Mueller probe about the inaugural committee spending. This new probe going to a longstanding mystery around an early Trump event. The inaugural committee raising nearly twice as much as Barack Obama`s and much of the money never publicly accounted for.
My panel on all of this, former Watergate Prosecutor Nick Akerman, Political Science Professor Christina Greer, former Federal Prosecutor Paul Butler, NBC`s Ken Dilanian and joining us by phone, one of the reporters who broke this story, Rebecca Ballhaus of the "Wall Street Journal".
Rebecca, great to have you with us. Let me begin with you if I may. Walk us through your reporting in terms of what we exactly learned and what investigators are looking at at this moment.
REBECCA BALLHAUS, REPORTER, WALL STREET JOURNAL (via telephone): So what we understand is that investigators right now have two prongs to their investigation. The first, as you said, is that they`re looking at spending by the inaugural committee, which has disclosed where it spent $61 million of the $103 million it spent but hasn`t disclosed where the other 50 or so million went. And the other side of it is that they`re looking at donors who gave to the inauguration and what they might have received in return for those donations.
MOHYELDIN: So how central to the probe are the tapes from Michael Cohen`s office that we referenced earlier? Why have they become so critical in this investigation?
BALLHAUS: So what we understand is that this is partially where the investigation came from. There have been questions about the inauguration fund for a while. We know that Mueller has looked into whether any foreign money went to the inaugural fund.
But when FBI agents raided Cohen`s home, office, and hotel room in April, they obtained this recorded conversation in which Stephanie Winston Wolkoff who was the top paid vendor for the inaugural fund expressed concern about how the inaugural fund was spending its money. And we believe that the investigation has grown somewhat out of that.
We know they have also asked other witnesses such as Rick Gates who you mentioned and another inaugural donor, Frank Haney. He`s a Tennessee developer who hired Michael Cohen earlier this year. And we understand that they`re looking at whether there was some effort to get access through his donation to the inaugural fund.
MOHYELDIN: And, Rebecca, really quickly, have you gotten a sense at whether the investigation is focusing on a possible play -- sorry, pay-for- play probe or is this more about the unaccounted funds of the inaugural committee?
BALLHAUS: It seems to us that they`re looking at all areas. As we reported, the investigation is still in its early stages, and we believe that pay-to-play is very much still a part of what they`re looking at.
MOHYELDIN: And have we learned any more about what Rick Gates has been able to tell prosecutors or shed light on for these investigators?
BALLHAUS: We know that he`s been asked about both sides of this investigation. So the spending by the inaugural and the donors who gave to the inaugural. He would obviously be in a good place to know. He was the deputy chairman of the inaugural fund and he also has a cooperation agreement that requires him to answer a question. So if they`re looking for a source who would be well-equate to answer some of the questions about where this money went and who gave it, Rick Gates is a very good place to start.
MOHYELDIN: And what more have we learned in your reporting about the role of first lady Melania Trump`s friend, Wolkoff, Rebecca Wolkoff?
BALLHAUS: So we have some interesting details about Wolkoff, some of which have been reported previously. So for example, her company which was the highest paid vendor by the inaugural fund. It was paid $25.8 million. And it was a company that was formed 45 days before the inauguration.
What`s the most interesting new detail, I would say, is that Wolkoff and some of her partners were paid about $1.6 million of the $25.8 million that her company was paid. And the remainder went to subcontractors, a source told us. So we don`t know who those subcontractors are. By law, the fund is not required to disclose them, but we would expect that this is something that investigators would be very interested in.
MOHYELDIN: All right. Rebecca Ballhaus from "The Wall Street Journal." Rebecca, thank you very much.
I want to bring in my panel. Now, Nick, let me begin with you. The investigation that is now being led by the Southern District of New York, the same office that led the investigation prosecution of Michael Cohen, A, how significant is that? And B, why them as opposed to an office from Washington, D.C.?
NICK AKERMAN, FORMER ASSISTANT WATERGATE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR: Well, I think it`s because it comes out of Michael Cohen. It comes out of what they seized in that search warrant in Michael Cohen`s office, home, and hotel room. So I think what they`re really looking at here is whether or not there is any kind of a quid pro quo for the millions that people were given to donate to the inauguration.
Under the fairly recent Supreme Court law, for the government to prosecute somebody for pay-to-play, they have to actually show that they paid for an official act. That is, they would have to give money to the inauguration with a promise, the quid pro quo, that they would receive some kind of government benefit. So I`m sure that that is what they`re looking for. In fact, if I were running the investigation, I would get the names of all the donors, line up the money, and then look in terms of whether their companies or they received any kind of federal funds.
MOHYELDIN: All right. So with that, Paul, to that point, is that something that would have had to take time in order to see what was given in exchange for the money? I mean what kind of charges could have been involved here if we`re talking about more than simply access to attending a celebrity inaugural ball?
PAUL BUTLER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes. So we`re thinking bribery. As Nick mentioned, it`s against the law to receive or pay money in exchange for an official act. The Supreme Court case, McDonald does make it more difficult for prosecutors to prove because it turns out there`s not a bright line between politicians doing favors for people who are their contributors and what looks more like a bribe.
But in addition to just garden variety public corruption, the inaugural committee was a nonprofit. There might be tax violations. There might also be theft, $107 million is a whole lot of money. Where did the money go? Prosecutors follow the money. There might even be reporting errors like there are with regard to the Michael Cohen campaign financing.
Because again, like that case, this is also about transparency in our democracy. If all these people are giving millions of dollars to the Trump inauguration committee, we need to know who that is, where the money went, and why the Trump administration seems to be once again covering up.
MOHYELDIN: So Christina, this -- when I think of the list of investigations that President Trump is facing, and I say President Trump and associates of President Trump, his inaugural committee, Trump Organization, Trump University, this is another front that now the president is embroiled in an investigation into his inaugural committee. What does that say to you?
CHRISTINA GREER, PROFESSOR, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: Well, I mean for so long he`s been Teflon Don, right. I mean for 40 years that he`s been in the public eye, things just haven`t seemed to stick to him. And similarly, since he`s been president, he didn`t have to show his taxes. There`s so many things -- we have the "Access Hollywood" tape. Nothing has ever really stuck.
The problem is if we remember back, remember, there`s a conversation that the Mueller investigation would be wrapped up by 2017 Thanksgiving at the final hour and it wasn`t. And so we know that Robert Mueller is, as Nick said, slowly but surely putting all the pieces together, Trump University, Trump Organization, Trump inaugural committee, Trump as president, because this is a man who`s used to grifting and sort of massaging, greasing the wheels.
Anyone who lives in New York or New Jersey knows about Trump and the Trump family, and how they have conducted business, how they have shorted people consistently for decades on construction projects, how the money has never been straight. And this is something that I think the president doesn`t really think is a big deal. You can sort of see him a little frustrated because it`s sort of, this is how he`s always behaved.
The problem is, this is the federal government and you`re used to lying and you`re used to having people around you lie. And now we see all the people around him in his outer circle, and mid-circle, and now his inner circle. It`s getting closer and closer. All of those lies are now coming to catch up to them and they`re actually being held accountable. Pretty soon, the president will have to be held accountable.
MOHYELDIN: Yes. We`re going to delve into a lot more of that inner circle in a moment. But Ken, let me get your thoughts really quickly about the information prosecutors want to get or are getting from Rick Gates, somebody who was, at one point, part of that inner circle and the Trump world.
KEN DILANIAN, INTELLIGENCE AND NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Well, Ayman, I covered the Paul Manafort trial. And during that trial where Rick Gates was a star witness, he testified that he had potentially misspent money from the inaugural committee. I remember that made news at the time. And the "Associated Press" did a pretty detailed investigation looking at how that committee spent more than twice as much as the Barack Obama inaugural but had really the same number of parties.
So there`s always been a question about where did the money go. And then on the fund-raising side, there`s a number of examples of people who made large donations and then made significant asks to the Trump administration and got policy results. And that seems to be what they`re looking at.
For example, Coal Baron named Robert Murray gave $300,000 to the inaugural committee according to "The New York Times", submitted a list of environmental rollbacks that he wanted and has basically gotten most of what he wanted according to "The New York Times." And that is exactly the kind of things that prosecutors would be looking at.
MOHYELDIN: So Nick, that is a high bar, though, when you`re talking about quid pro quo. Ken just gave us a really good example of an individual who donated expecting environmental rollback. It seems at least two years into the administration, those rollbacks have gone into effect. Hard to say that it`s exactly what he wanted. But how do you then draw a correlation between the money donated, as an investigator and prosecutor, between the money donated and the quid pro quo?
AKERMAN: No, you have to prove at the time that there was a quid pro quo - -
MOHYELDIN: An expectation?
AKERMAN: -- that there was an agreement, wasn`t even an expectation. It was either a wink, a nod, or something that said I`m giving you the money but in return, I`m expecting X, Y, and Z. That`s what the government has to prove. It`s not just access. Access is not a crime under the new Supreme Court decision McDonald.
BUTLER: And Ayman, one way the government proves that, what prosecutors do, is they use cooperating witnesses. And so one of those witnesses is Michael Cohen.
MOHYELDIN: Yes. You just got to that question I was going to ask you. Go ahead. Finish that thought about Michael Cohen. I mean how important is he now in this investigation?
BUTLER: He`s key. So we have this Tennessee developer who gives a million dollars to the Trump inauguration committee, and then he hires Michael Cohen to help him get a contract for billions of dollars with Trump`s energy department. That contract is still pending. They haven`t made up their mind but who has made up his mind is Michael Cohen. He`s sentenced to three years. If he comes up with other information, was there pay-to- play, what was the deal, that helps him do less time in prison and that helps the SDNY learn the truth.
MOHYELDIN: So Christina, I`ll give you the final word on this. Anyone who thought the sentencing of Michael Cohen somehow suggested an end to his role in the bigger investigation into Trump world this evening.
GREER: Yes, I don`t think so. I mean I always tell my students, I`m like if you ever get confused about what the answer is, just say money and then work your way backwards, right. Because we also have to remember, it`s not just Michael Cohen, the lawyer of Donald Trump, it`s Michael Cohen the deputy finance chair of the RNC which now implicates some of the members of the Republican Party who have been very quiet and so very supportive of this president.
So if Mueller is doing his due diligence, if the SDNY are doing their due diligence, they`re not just looking at the individuals who have money who have possibly been doing pay-to-play, but also why are certain members of the Republican Party so supportive of this particular president and what do they know? And so this opens up a much larger conversation about not just the president but his administration and the larger Republican Party in the past two years.
MOHYELDIN: Ken, final word to you. Where does the investigation go from here? What is your big takeaway after what we learned tonight with this investigation?
DILANIAN: This is just another legal thorn in the side, probably not even the most damaging or dangerous one, but in a presidency that is increasingly dominated by and consumed by these various investigations. And it`s going to be something that Trump is going to take more and more of the president`s time going forward, legal resources, personnel resources. It`s going to bedevil this presidency.
MOHYELDIN: Yes, a lot of people have been saying this week has put the presidency under a tremendous amount of pressure. We`ve seen some of that on Twitter and his reactions. I can only imagine what it`s going to be like in the coming hours.
Ken Dilanian, Paul Butler, thank you very much. Christina and Nick, stick around for a little bit longer.
Coming up, NBC News confirming, Trump was the third man in the room for those talks about illegally paying hush money to women.
Also, new reporting about the potential legal exposure for executives at the Trump Organization, including the president`s own family.
Plus, a Russian agent pleading guilty for trying to influence American politics and she`s now cooperating with the feds. And tonight, conflicting reports about whether President Trump may actually be considering his son- in-law, Jared Kushner, to be the White House chief of staff. One more thing on his plate.
I`m Ayman Mohyeldin, in for Ari Melber. Buckle up because this is a wild night of breaking news and we are just getting started.
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MOHYELDIN: All right. We are back with a bombshell. NBC News reporting that Donald Trump was the third person in the room back in August of 2015 talking about hush money payments to women with Michael Cohen and "National Enquirer" Publisher David Pecker.
Now, remember, AMI admitted to prosecutors that there was a meeting between Michael Cohen, David Pecker, and at least one other member of the campaign. The news tonight, NBC confirming that that third person was, in fact, Donald Trump himself. As first reported by "The Wall Street Journal," this dropping just hours after Trump`s first response to Michael Cohen`s sentencing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Number one, they say it`s not a campaign finance violation. Number two -- or it`s not even under campaign finance. Number two, if it was, it`s not even a violation. Number three, it`s a civil matter. They put that on to embarrass me. They put those two charges on to embarrass me. They`re not criminal charges.
What happened is either Cohen or the prosecutors, in order to embarrass me said, "Listen, I`m making this deal for reduced time and everything else. Do me a favor, put these two charges on." And let me tell you, I never directed him to do anything wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MOHYELDIN: All right. So that`s what Trump is saying now in public. But today, NBC News reporting the swirl of investigations and the prospect of subpoenas from a Democratic Congress in 2019 has the president worried about impeachment.
With me now is NBC`s Carol Lee and Christina Greer is back with me.
Carol, let me begin with you. I mean how does this report change Trump`s story on these huge payments? His story has shifted from not knowing anything about the payments to now saying what he said today.
CAROL LEE, REPORTER, NBC: Yes. You know Ayman, it just makes it harder for him to distance himself from this. I mean, you know, what we`ve seen is, as you point out from the start, the president had one story where he said he didn`t know anything about it, you`d have to talk to Michael Cohen. And it`s just shifted and repeatedly changed and morphed over time.
And then on a parallel track, you have various investigations that have revealed publicly different pieces of evidence. You know this is just the latest one. The fact that he is the third person that was in the room having those discussions. That makes it incredibly difficult for the president to say I didn`t know about this or that I wasn`t involved in that.
And it also just adds more fuel to the fire of what me and my colleagues have been writing about which is that he`s really increasingly nervous and the people around him are really increasingly nervous that with all of this coming out and they don`t know what`s coming next, that his prospects for impeachment are only higher.
And so they are trying to kind of hold the guard on this, particularly with some of these establishment Republicans who the president challenged in the 2016 election. And the fear is that if those types of Republicans start to crack and break from the president a little bit, that that will embolden Democrats and there will be enough of a coalescence around the idea of impeachment for it to go forward.
MOHYELDIN: Yes. And there`s been some -- obviously some concern about the president and the functionality at the White House. In fact, our reporter Hans Nichols at the White House saying the president didn`t even come down to the oval office or the west wing until closer to noon.
So I`m curious to get your thoughts, Carol. From your reporting, have you gotten a sense of what is the biggest concern for impeachment? What part of the investigation, even now with this new investigation at "The Wall Street Journal" as you`re reporting tonight about the inaugural committee, which out of the litany of investigations facing the president that the Democrats could possibly pick up in 2019? Is he the most concerned about, according to your reporting, and the aides?
LEE: Well, I think actually it`s kind of -- it`s all of them. It`s this - - it`s broadly the fact that you have the special counsel investigation. And then you have the Southern District of New York, that investigation. And then you have other investigations that are percolating about the president`s business ties. Now, this report from "The Wall Street Journal" about the inaugural committee.
And it`s just that there are all of these sort of envision it as like trains on the track, that this White House feels like they can`t get control of and they don`t know where it`s headed. And that`s what the concern is. It`s very much about what`s coming next and what else do you know.
I will also say that for all the evidence that keeps coming out that we know publicly already in terms of the president is the third person in the room in this discussion with Michael Cohen and David Pecker, that`s just one piece. There`s bound to be a lot more out there and that`s what the concern is.
MOHYELDIN: So Christina, let me ask you about the relationship between President Trump, Michael Cohen. He stated that he`s a liar. He said that he didn`t know anything about the payments. He`s also said that he never directed him to break the law.
But then you also had Michael Cohen when he was pleading guilty saying that he was doing so at the direction and it`s also a position that the federal government has now taken, that he was doing so at the direction of a person running for national office, Individual-1. Everybody believes that to be the president. Is the defense -- can the president even use the defense of distancing himself from Michael Cohen?
GREER: It is far too late. I mean, first of all, the president says he only hires the best people. So even if Michael Cohen is this weak, liar, loser that the president has referred to this, why did you keep him in your inner circle for close to two decades, right? He`s more than a low-level PR person as the president has now called him. He was your personal lawyer who recorded lots of conversations at your request, right? And so these conversations now are going to come back and possibly haunt the president.
I think what`s really fascinating, and this is what Carol mentioned earlier just now, but this is also -- we`ve seen the Republican Party behave like sycophants to this particular president. I don`t know if Michael Cohen has gotten to them, we don`t know. But for whatever reason, if they either respect the mission, if they respect the party, many of them have been lockstep with this particular president, even when he`s been egregious and antithetical to a lot of their principles and morals.
MOHYELDIN: And so when you look --
GREER: However --
MOHYELDIN: Yes.
GREER: There are going to be cracks in that foundation because this is a situation where a lot of them have to think about their own re-election chances. This particular president has been bullying many of them and they might get a little tired of that. And also, his base is sticking with him and they can be fine with him not saying prayers in church or just being a brute.
Whatever it may be, or consistently lying and moving goal posts but respectable Republicans are going to wake up. Hopefully, sooner rather than later. And I think that`s where the real fear of impeachment comes from, with not just the House with Nancy Pelosi in charge, but now also some of his colleagues in the Republican Party in the Senate.
MOHYELDIN: And we`ll see how that plays out in January. All right. Christina Greer, Carol Lee, thank you both very much for joining us.
LEE: Thank you.
MOHYELDIN: Ahead, the White House responding to those reports that Trump is eyeing Jared Kushner for chief of staff. But first, Mueller and federal prosecutors turning attention to the Trump family business. We`re going to have that when we are back in 30 seconds.
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MOHYELDIN: All right. Tonight, growing legal pressure on Donald Trump`s family. Trump in the room discussing hush money payments with Michael Cohen and the "National Enquirer`s" Publisher David Pecker. Cohen and Pecker now cooperating with the feds and so is this man.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Replacing George this week is my chief financial officer, Allen Weisselberg. And you think George is tough, wait until you see Allen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MOHYELDIN: All right. Allen Weisselberg, Trump Organization`s CFO, allegedly involved in the hush money payment that prosecutors are now saying was a crime reportedly granted immunity in return for cooperation. Potentially dishing about a business that Michael Cohen`s friend, Donny Deutsch, called a criminal enterprise.
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DONNY DEUTSCH, FRIEND OF MICHAEL COHEN: This is just the tip of the iceberg. I really believe even post Trump presidency, you`re going to see the Trump business empire being picked apart for the next 20 years. It`s basically built as a criminal enterprise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MOHYELDIN: So criminal or not, the Trump Organization is headed by a very small team. Two of them, Cohen and Weisselberg, now cooperating with federal agents. The spotlight now on the remaining players, Trump`s children, Don Junior, Eric and, of course, Ivanka.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Why work for me? Why not go someplace else?
IVANKA TRUMP, DAUGHTER OF DONALD TRUMP: Well, I actually did go someplace else for a year and ultimately sort of the siren`s call of working on your projects threw me back there, the sexiest projects out there, the best projects out there. And honestly, being in this field, I wouldn`t want to work for anyone else. The Trump Organization hopefully will be everywhere globally and we`ll continue to grow it, take what you made, such a phenomenal brand and continue to extend that really and make it just a family company.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MOHYELDIN: All right. So with me now are Tim O`Brien, executive editor of "Bloomberg View" who wrote about the growing pressure on Donald Trump Jr. And back with us, Nick Akerman, former Watergate Special Prosecutor. Great to have both of you guys with us.
Tim, let me begin with you. You kind of look at this from where the prosecutors are standing. They`re slowly squeezing one by one people that were part of the Trump Organization. Allen Weisselberg, Michael Cohen. Are they squeezing these people more and more you think?
TIM O`BRIEN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, BLOOMBERG VIEW: Well, I think it`s a classic prosecutorial strategy as you squeeze up from the bottom as you move toward the top. In Allen Weisselberg, they have someone who has been with the Trump Organization since 1974. He was Fred Trump`s accountant.
In David Pecker, you have someone who`s had at least I think a two-decade relationship with President Trump. Both of those men can speak to issues and history that goes well beyond some of the current stuff that Bob Mueller is looking at, which raises the question, I think, as to whether or not the Southern District`s investigations will go well beyond where Mueller started. And some of that may continue to be a problem for the president after he leaves office, and certainly, I think is going to get into the operations of the Trump Organization itself.
MOHYELDIN: Let me pick up on that point that Tim just brought up. You`ve got two federal investigations. How much of that do you think is a bit of their design to provide redundancy to one another, to protect one another, so to speak? I mean there`s all this talk about can President Trump shut down the Bob Mueller investigation. But now, this one is actually -- the Southern District of New York seems to be also gaining traction.
AKERMAN: Yes, there`s a lot to that. I think that`s exactly what they did. I mean they had this search warrant that was executed in New York and they let the Southern District go with a big part of this case and they did that on purpose. Because if Trump tries to shut down anything in Washington, the Southern District is not going to roll over.
I was there for 10 years. They don`t call it the Sovereign District of New York for nothing. I mean he`s in big trouble, and this case is turning into a very solid case against the president.
MOHYELDIN: Yes. It seems like they certainly have a lot of momentum. But Tim, let me -- one of the things that President Trump has been known to say is that his family was a red line. If the investigation, whether it be Mueller or anyone came after his family that it would be a red line, all bets are off the table. Any power he has he could possibly exercise against that. We are at that stage now when you look at where these investigations are going into the Trump Organization which is a family business.
TIM O`BRIEN, AUTHOR, TRUMPNATION: I think actually that red line was crossed last year. You know, Bob Mueller executed a subpoena on the Trump Organization front financial records last summer. I think Donald Trump Jr. is clearly front and center in this investigation. It appears that he misled Congress and may have lied to Congress which is the same thing the judge in Michael Cohen`s case pointed out as one of the most egregious things he did.
And I think today you know, the President`s tweeting he sort of put this into three baskets today. He said, I never directed Michael Cohen. None of it was campaign-related and Michael Cohen can`t be trusted. The first two of those, there`s ample evidence that he appears at least appears to have directed both the campaign finance problems and the payments to Stormy Daniels and McDougald, as well possibly Michael Cohen testimony to Congress about the deal in Russia.
And then whether or not this was campaign-related, there`s also evidence in the record now per the cooperation with AMI. They said that the partnership was you know engineered to influence --
MOHYELDIN: To help -- yes.
O`BRIEN: -- and helped the election. And then the third issue is to whether or not Michael Cohen has credibility. These prosecutors are veteran prosecutors. They are not only going to rely on Michael Cohen. They have e-mail, they have financial records, they have tape recordings.
MOHYELDIN: They have thousands of documents. Yes.
O`BRIEN: It is. So he`s sort of shooting these empty defenses up in the air right now.
MOHYELDIN: Yes, and Rudy Giuliani is trying to suggest that in fact Michael Cohen is telling the truth and the President`s answers to Bob Mueller should comply or at least comport with that part of the truth. What is your take -- Donny Deutsch describe the Trump Organization as a criminal enterprise, what is your take on the Trump Organization from what you`ve learned about it?
NICK AKERMAN, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: I mean, from what I`ve learned about it, it`s just like the Mafia used to prosecute. You got the guy who`s the boss on top and you`ve got people who have various roles. It really is -- it seems to be no different. I mean, at least -- although I must say the Mafia bosses I prosecuted were a lot smarter than Trump, and they were better organized.
MOHYELDIN: Yes, it doesn`t seem to have at least with all the documentation that they`ve been able to tape together that he was a smart person.
AKERMAN: No. You don`t have your own people tape recording you at the same time that you`re in the middle of a conspiracy to pay off women to keep them quiet during a campaign. I mean, I don`t --
MOHYELDIN: But what does it tell you that the people around him in his inner circle felt they needed to record these conversations, that we don`t know who directed them to record it, but if they felt they needed to record it, what does that tell you about what they felt?
O`BRIEN: Because he`s always threatened that he was recording other people.
MOHYELDIN: Right.
O`BRIEN: So of course, anyone working for him who thought at some point he might throw them under the bus is going to tape him before he tapes them.
MOHYELDIN: Do you think it`s a criminal enterprise from what we`ve learned in the reporting?
O`BRIEN: You know, I think what`s useful -- I think there -- I think Donald Trump is intersected with organized crime for decades in Atlantic City and in New York. He clearly had partnerships with people at connections with Russian organized crime. I think to say the whole thing has been a criminal enterprise is a stretch. But I don`t think you need to say it`s a criminal enterprise to continue to prosecute him for breaking the law.
MOHYELDIN: Well, we`ll wait and see what happens. All right guys, thank you so much. Nick, Tim, I appreciate it. Ahead, is Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner about to become the White House chief of staff. You heard that correctly, new reporting breaking now. Also a bipartisan rebuke of Trump. The historic vote from the Senate today about the Saudi Crown Prince. But first, drama in the courtroom. A Russian agent admits to engaging in conspiracy against the United States. Is there more to this story. Stay with us.
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MOHYELDIN: Today a Russian national admitted to trying to influence U.S. politics in the middle of the 2016 election. Maria Butina pled guilty in a federal court to a conspiracy charge and agreed to cooperate with federal prosecutors for failing to register as a foreign agent, saying that she tried to establish unofficial lines of communication with Americans having power or influence over U.S. politics. And that she was working to benefit Russia and at the direction of a Russian official that prosecutors saying Butina was helped by a U.S. person who`s now been identified by law enforcement as her boyfriend Republican political operative Paul Erickson.
She worked closely with NRA officials, organized a Russian delegation to attend the National Prayer Breakfast in D.C., met prominent Republican officials including asking Trump a question that prompted the President to give this response about sanctions on Russia in Las Vegas back in 2015. Watch this.
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I believe I would get along very nicely with Putin, OK. And I mean where we have the strength. I don`t think you`d need the sanctions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MOHYELDIN: All right. So Butina wasn`t prosecuted by Mueller`s office. In fact, federal prosecutors in D.C. were the ones who did that. Putin denies even knowing about her.
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VLADIMIR PUTIN, PRESIDENT RUSSIA: (SPEAKING RUSSIAN)
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MOHYELDIN: All right, with me now Tim Dickinson Contributing Editor to Rolling Stone and Evelyn Farkas former Deputy Assistant Defense Secretary for Russia. Tim, good to have you with us. Let me begin with you if I may. What exactly was Butina trying to accomplish for Russia? Explain it to us in simple terms.
TIM DICKINSON, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, ROLLING STONE: Well, she was trying to open a back channel to have prominent Republicans speaking to the Kremlin in advance Russian interests. That`s the sort of nutshell of it.
MOHYELDIN: And how significant are the developments today in the courtroom that issue was in trying she was trying to influence you know, American politics in the middle of the election. She got a chance to pose a question. We still haven`t figured out how or why she was a lot to ask that question or in what context she was called upon.
DICKINSON: Well, she was working at direction of the Russian government. I mean, you know, at least officials in the Russian government. And she`s now -- you know, what we`ve always sort of had a sense was very suspicious we now know was a criminal conspiracy. And she`s the first Russian national to be convicted in this wider net of Russian influence of the 2016 election. So it`s hugely significant and I think there a number of other shoes to drop still.
MOHYELDIN: I know, Evelyn, that you know, the President of Russia Vladimir Putin says that no one knows about her. He said he asked to the head of his intelligence agencies and they were all kind of like baffled about it from his reaction. But here`s the interesting thing. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs, his official Twitter account, they actually have her picture up as their avatar. So it certainly says something about it.
Are you buying that they don`t know her or not? I mean, do you even buy that argument that they`re putting forward?
EVELYN FARKAS, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT DEFENSE SECRETARY FOR RUSSIA: I mean, not for a minute, OK. So first of all, you had foreign minister Lavrov, the moment she was snapped up by the FBI saying let her go, she`s innocent. So clearly the Foreign Minister of Russia knew who she was. You can bet the intelligence agencies in Russia knew who she was. And of course, she was operating at their direction.
I think the interesting thing about this is that this particular influencer operation goes back before 2016. So actually, Tim has some excellent reporting on this. You know, she was -- she started working for Russia and around 2010. And her objective was yes, to influence the United States politicians through the NRA. And it was very clever and it was very Russian.
This is -- the same thing they did they tried to get in with the far-right in Hungary and they gave money to the Jobbik party. The same thing in France. They gave money to Marine Le Pen. They would do it on the left and the right. In this case, they tried the right. They thought the right was an easier target because of the whole religious thing that Putin also uses domestically.
But the Lions converged with the Trump campaign when it became apparent that he was going to run for the office. And so all these various dots are getting connected. But it`s important to understand that Putin was already targeting America and now Butina became part of the Trump story once he became a viable candidate.
MOHYELDIN: Tim, should we be reading into the fact that Butina wasn`t actually prosecuted by Mueller`s office? I mean, does it say anything that she doesn`t fit into that investigation about the larger Russian efforts to meddle in the 2016 election, although that is precisely what the federal prosecutors are saying that she was trying to do.
DICKINSON: No. And it`s a little confusing. And it may be this diversification of courts and jurisdictions that you were talking about earlier. And I think the other important thing that we need to know it, in this case, is that Paul Erickson has been deemed complicit in this -- in this conspiracy. So they had a man on the inside according to the federal documents. I`ve spoken to his lawyer today and he you know, says that Paul was a good American and would never have done anything to harm America.
But according to the federal court filings, this guy was complicit and knew who she was working for and helped her do it, helped her identify targets within the NRA, help bring these NRA folks to Moscow, help them meet with top Russian officials Dmitry Rogozin and Lavrov apparently in Moscow. So this was clearly well known in the highest ranking --
MOHYELDIN: Right.
DICKINSON: -- highest-ranking people in the Russian government. So this was -- this was not some sort of you know, covert side operation. Like this had some official blessing.
MOHYELDIN: All right, Tim Dickinson, Evelyn Farkas, thank you guys both very much. And another big story today. Trump rebuked for his support of Saudi Arabia despite the murder of a Washington Post journalist and the horrific war in Yemen.
Late today the Senate passed a bipartisan resolution to pull back support for the Saudi-led war in Yemen. The Senate also saying that Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman was responsible for the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi`s killing. Although the resolution is non-binding, it is historic. In fact, yesterday the House GOP leaders blocked lawmakers from considering a similar resolution.
Ahead, White House chief of staff Jared Kushner? Well, conflicting reports tonight about that next.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s reports that he`s considering Jared Kushner.
SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, PRESS SECRETARY, WHITE HOUSE: I`m not aware that he`s under consideration but as -- I think all of us here would recognize he will be great in any role that the President chooses to put him in.
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MOHYELDIN: All right, so that is not a denial by any measure. Trump`s press secretary moments ago saying she`s not aware that Jared Kushner is being considered as the new chief of staff. The Huffington Post and CBS both reporting Trump is eying Kushner for the job. In fact, they reportedly met about the job yesterday. That report not confirmed by NBC News.
Now, of course, Trump`s son-in-law was inside that infamous Trump Tower meeting with the Russians. Here`s what Trump himself said today about the job search.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you looking for in the next chief of staff?
TRUMP: Well, I want somebody that`s strong, but I want somebody that thinks like I do. It`s my vision. It`s it is my vision after all. At the same time, I`m open to ideas.
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MOHYELDIN: All right, joining me now is former Pennsylvania Governor and former DNC Chair Ed Rendell. Governor, great to have you with us. So let me first, sir, get your reaction to the news that Jared Kushner possibly the next chief of staff at the White House.
ED RENDELL (D), FORMER GOVERNOR, PENNSYLVANIA: You`re kidding.
MOHYELDIN: Why.
RENDELL: It can`t -- it can`t be true.
MOHYELDIN: Why? Because he`s one of the President`s most trusted confidant. He`s been in so many of the high-level meetings. He`s been given so many portfolios. Why not one more?
RENDELL: Ronald Reagan had James Baker, Bill Clinton had Leon Panetta, George Bush, the second George Bush had Andrew Card. These are people with rich and deep government experience. Jared Kushner has had some experience in these last two years but did not have a sufficient security clearance. We`re going to make that person secretary -- chief of staff, hardly. I mean, it shows that I think if this is true, it`s only meaning is that no one who`s got any credibility will fake the job.
MOHYELDIN: Let me play you the soundbite from earlier this week when Jared Kushner was asked about President Trump`s search for a chief of staff. Watch this.
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JARED KUSHNER, SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The President will make the right choice for chief of staff when he`s ready and hopefully he`ll choose somebody he`s got great chemistry with, great relationship with, who will help him navigate the next couple of years through all of the good opportunities that emerge to keep pushing forward.
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MOHYELDIN: All right. So that was on Monday. Wednesday he reportedly interviewed for the position. When you look back at the two people that have served in this position prior to him, you had a general, marine general who`s supposed to bring discipline and order. You had Reince Priebus who was supposed to be a political operative and knew how government work. And then you had Jared Kushner saying what you just heard there about what he needs to bring in a new chief of staff. What happens if Trump taps Jared Kushner? Does he add those qualities?
RENDELL: No, I don`t think he has the qualities or the experience for the job. The one thing he does bring is good chemistry with President Trump and also someone who can be 100 percent trusted to do what President Trump wants to do. I don`t think General Kelly filled in -- fell into that category. I don`t even think that Reince Priebus fell in that category. So this is really circling the wagons in the most egregious sense.
MOHYELDIN: Let me play you what Jared Kushner told CNN back in October. Watch this.
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KUSHNER: I don`t make a lot of noise. The noise is sometimes made about me but I try to keep my head down.
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MOHYELDIN: So is that an important quality for a chief of staff when you have a president who`s so loud, so domineering, that you know you keep your head down. The news should not be about who the chief of staff is, let the president do his talking or do you want to have a president -- or you want to have a chief of staff who also makes his own headlines that is willing to kind of speak publicly about the president?
RENDELL: Well, clearly it`s not what I would choose, it`s what President Trump would be choosing. Clearly, he wants someone who is going to fade into the background, protect him to the extent that he can and someone he can trust 100 percent. He`s not interested in someone who`s going to really help make policy because Jared Kushner doesn`t have the background to help make policy, to advise on critical issues.
I mean, there are life-or-death military issues that are at stake here and he has no experience whatsoever to recommending himself to the president. I mean it`s a stunning choice. It is --if it -- if it is true and I`m not ready to say it is true. But if it is true it`s a stunning choice and just shows what disarray this White House is in.
MOHYELDIN: Yes. I was going to say an important if there. But let me ask you this which is Jared Kushner has been at the center of some of the President`s controversies. We know he was there at that infamous tower meeting, Trump Tower meeting. How would him being elevated to the position of chief of staff -- excuse me -- put him under further scrutiny and a further microscope? Wouldn`t he be a liability for the President as his chief of staff?
RENDELL: Yes. You would think so. You would think the President would try to get someone strong, who would exert some discipline, who has great credibility in governmental circles, and who`s squeaky clean and not connected with the campaign. That`s why this choice can only be being made because no one else will take the job in my judgment, if the choice is in fact they made.
MOHYELDIN: Yes, well, according to the President though, he`s got ten people who want the job according to him.
RENDELL: Yes.
MOHYELDIN: All right, Governor Ed Rendell, thank you so much. Always a pleasure, sir. Ahead, his lawyer said that he`s going to be the next John Dean. Now, Michael Cohen is breaking his silence. Breaking news on that next.
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MOHYELDIN: Michael Cohen is about to speak out for the first time since getting sentenced. You remember Cohen`s adviser Lanny Davis said he has a story to tell, even saying Cohen will be the next John Dean, the White House Counsel who brought down Richard Nixon. Well, tomorrow morning, we`ll get Cohen`s interview with ABC`s George Stephanopoulos. Cohen who was once Trump`s right-hand man, praised by Trump, now he is getting attacked by the President.
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TRUMP: Brian, look, you know Michael. Michael has been on your show I`m sure a lot. You know, Michael is good person.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know.
TRUMP: Let me just tell you that Michael is -- in business, he`s really businessman in a fairly big businesses, as I understand it. I can tell you, he`s a good guy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was someone who surreptitiously recorded you --
TRUMP: Terrible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- is now known as a criminal liar yet this was someone who was in your inner circle.
TRUMP: Yes. Well, it happens. I mean, look, it happens. I hire usually good people. You know, what, in retrospect, I made a mistake.
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MOHYELDIN: It was a mistake. All right, so tomorrow, a key Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee Jackie Speier will join us here on the program. Meanwhile, Michael Cohen sentencing gave the light night comedians a lot of material to look at. Watch this.
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JIMMY FALLON, COMEDIAN: If you are watching from home, you`re in for a great show. If you are watching from jail, then you probably work for the President.
JAMES CORDEN, COMEDIAN: Michael Cohen was sentenced to three years in prison. He`ll be in the prison`s newly dedicated Trump administration wing.
JIMMY KIMMEL, COMEDIAN: At least 16 members of team Trump had contacts with Russian during the campaign. If Donald Trump was a rapper, his name would be Colludacris.
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MOHYELDIN: Colludacris. Pretty good name for a rapper, I have to admit. Finally tonight, one more thing from Ari`s interview with comedian, Saturday Night Live star Chris Redd as part of his "MAVERICKS" with Ari Melber series. Chris reveals one of the characters he performed during his SNL audition that help him get the job. Tanya, a flight attendant from Atlanta.
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CHRIS REDD, COMEDIAN: We were stuck in Atlanta for 16 hours and she was just on her couch cracking jokes. I don`t know where the pilot is so I can`t tell you where he is. It was like saying things that you shouldn`t say on the intercom. There is one guy who was like rushing to another terminal and he had a backpack on. And she was like, don`t run with that backpack on, you look like a grown baby. And he did. Like no one looks like an adult running with a backpack on.
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MOHYELDIN: All right. The full interview is up at MSNBC.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END