Top Trump aide Cohn out tonight. TRANSCRIPT: 03/06/2018. The Beat with Ari Melber

Simona Mangiante, Jess McIntosh

Date: March 6, 2018
Guest: Simona Mangiante, Jess McIntosh

four or five different directions tonight and I wouldn`t blame you. A lot
of ways we can go.

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: One of the things we are going to do is play some
excerpts from the very interesting interview you had with your own sets of

TODD: The WikiLeaks. Yes, WikiLeaks` characterization on Russia is very -
- coordination and colluding with WikiLeaks is not coordinating our
collusion with Russia.

What do you think of that, counselor?

MELBER: Well, counselor, I think (INAUDIBLE) moving and the question is

Chuck Todd, thank you, as always.

TODD: Thanks, brother.

MELBER: Tonight here is the latest. A new White House shake-up. More key
witnesses in the Mueller probe are speaking out, as I mentioned. But also,
breaking right now, Donald Trump`s top economic advisor, Gary Cohn out.

And in the Russia probe, the storm now hitting after the calm. It has been
if you think about it, months of silence. Several witnesses in the Mueller
probe, keeping their silence until this week. They are speaking out. It
began of course with Sam Nunberg who did his first on camera interview on
this show last night. He first vow to defy Mueller. More on all of that

But this is much broader than Sam Nunberg. Because after he spoke so much
about his mentor Roger Stone, the former Trump advisor. As I just
mentioned, Roger then spoke out in this brand-new unusual interview with
Chuck Todd. That`s another unusual development in news about the Russia
probe. And I`m going to have a legal breakdown of Roger and why he matters
and why he makes Trump nervous later in the show.

So that`s two witnesses right there. But in a moment, it will be three. I
will be joined by Simona Mangiante, a witness who was interviewed by
Mueller`s team about George Papadopoulos.

Simona, thank you for joining me tonight. I`m going to speak to you in a

Now first, some context. You don`t have to listen all that closely to
these stories to see something is happening in the Mueller probe right now.
He is bearing down on new leads. He is hitting new people with subpoenas.
Witnesses are leaking. And while they usually do that anonymously, then
you get Sam Nunberg, telling his stories out in the open.

He offered us a rare inside look at the probe, telling us who Mueller`s
eyeing, what documents he is seizing, even clues to the strategy for when
and why Mueller does put a witness into that intimidating grand jury box.
And whatever one thinks of Mr. Nunberg`s public statements yesterday, it
was clearly partly a thought of going into that box that scared him.

He made news on this show last night, initially vowing on camera to defy
Mueller`s subpoena, which my guest, attorney Maya Wiley cautioned against.


so you certainly don`t have any reason not to testify, right, as you told
us today. Not only that, it actually makes it appear that Roger Stone has
something to hide because you will not go testify.


WILEY: Well then go testify.

NUNBERG: I think that in our discussion and what you said, I would have no
problem going to the grand jury. But I once again don`t want to have to
spend 80 hours going over email?

WILEY: You would rather spend possibly a year in jail than 80 hours going
through emails?

NUNBERG: I`m not going to jail.


MELBER: And then he said, am I? So what is he really asking? And did the
answers that he got there from Ms. Wiley and others have an impact? Well,
I can show you this news tonight. Nunberg is saying, yes. He is telling a
news outlet, he will comply, basically because of the counsel of professor
Maya Wiley whom he spoke to on “the Beat.”

Now, some viewers have told me that that segment at times felt like an
intervention. I`ll tell you it was certainly unlike any interview I have
ever been a part of, on or off camera. Whatever it was, though, it also
become part of the story. And tonight, we also asked Wiley for her
response to Nunberg crediting her for this new decision today to pledge to
comply with Mueller.

Let me read you what she says.
I joined the set after Sam Nunberg referenced his racially offensive
statements that got him fired from the Trump campaign dismissing their
relevance because they wouldn`t have lost Trump a vote, she says, she says.
Unspoken was his willingness to use the n-word in reference to black
leaders. That Nunberg actually recognizes the value and intelligence of a
black woman is, I hope, a life lesson for him. I assume he has sought the
advice and counsel of his lawyer. I hope what I gave him was a sense of
the humanity we need now more than ever in this country.

It`s humanity we need now. You could see some of it in Nunberg`s tortured
public reaction and also in other people`s reactions to him. Nunberg
saying he wanted to explain himself. And he has done that before on this
show by the way. And he also wanted to ask others what he should do. And
for whatever reason he wanted to do that in public on TV, it became this
mediated and at sometimes reckless public negotiations with his own lawyer,
his former colleagues or even as he thought with Mueller`s team itself.


NUNBERG: I am not a subject of the investigation.

MELBER: Which would, if true –

NUNBERG: But they wanted something I said to them in that interview, they
wanted at the grand jury.

MELBER: Do you think they wanted to put on record to put on record for
testimonial purposes for later?

NUNBERG: Of course.

MELBER: They want you in that jury room to build a case against someone


MELBER: And that person is?

NUNBERG: I don`t know.

MELBER: You don`t know.

NUNBERG: And if it`s Roger, I`m not going to testify against Roger. Roger
did not do anything.


MELBER: At a certain point, though, he also hit his limit. He cancelled a
planned interview this morning with another network and ultimately asked
for the cameras following him to be turned off.




MELBER: Late last night, off camera, I`ll tell you I spoke to Mr. Nunberg
as well as his father. They do appear to be working through this. And it
would be easy enough to dismiss Mr. Nunberg or just judge him from afar.
In a short time he was from saying he was a cooperative witness, to a
defiant one to tonight once again pledging cooperation.

Now he may have simply lived out in public what many people caught up in
these situations feel in private. He could also be easy to consume this
spectacle while claiming a kind of distance from it. In fact I see some in
Washington tonight, people who live off scandal and clicks, now declaring
this particular one was suddenly too much for them.

But the legal import of these stories, of Mr. Nunberg and tonight Mr. Stone
and soon other witnesses is not the show. It`s not just the will they or
won`t they iterative updates. It`s actually a rare thing I can tell you
for a grand jury probe, it is the disclosures of information and evidence
from primary sources, from people who have actually been in that room in
Mueller`s office, or people who are headed there. And for all the reaction
of Mr. Nunberg, he is not the first witness to disclose this information or
do so with an ax to grind.

Most of the stories we get about this probe, these headlines that all of us
read, they come from witnesses leaking anonymously, and that`s how we know
what little we know about the probe. Those people leak, anonymously, out
of self-interest.

Think about this, Nunberg leaked On the Record, probably against self-

Roger Stone also took that risk today. And the same goes for many other
people. In a moment I am going to speak to, as I mentioned, a witness who
has dealt with the Mueller probe. But given all of the other breaking
news, I want to turn immediately to John Harwood who has the breaking news
on a departure – John.

JOHN HARWOOD, MSNBC REPORTER: Ari, this is the stunning word from the
White House that Gary Cohn, the head of the national economic council, is
resigning. This comes as the President is turning towards these
protectionist tariffs on steel and aluminum. If you are a pro-market
Republican, this is a bad development for you. And you can expect markets
to turn down tomorrow on this news. Don`t know if it will sustain that
during the course of the day, but you can expect them to open down.

What we don`t know is whether or not this is a decisive sign about where
the administration is going to go on trade more broadly going forward.
There are a lot bigger trade issues outstanding for the administration than
simply these tariffs. Gary Cohn`s been there for 14 months. It`s a
difficult job. But this is what happens when you have a President who is
so unconventional, traditional Republicans, when they confront the split
between the blue collar wing of the party and the pro-market, pro-business
side, typically side with the business side on tariffs. Donald Trump is
not doing that. And Gary Cohn is out the door.

MELBER: Stay with me. I want to also bring in Betsy Woodruff, who has an
eye on the White House on the Russia story as well as a lot of staffing.

Betsy, as you know, Mr. Cohn also made waves when he seemed to leak that he
had disagreements about the President`s approach on Charlottesville. Here,
he is leaving over tariffs. The “New York Times” breaking the story as it
quote, you know, “from people saying he is a rare talent. I thank him for
his dedicated service to the American people. That`s according to
President Trump. So they are trying to put the best face on it. Your view
of what`s happening?

response to the Charlottesville scandal is going to be an important part of
his legacy in this White House. Obviously, those issues weren`t
necessarily part of his portfolio, but when you are working with a
President like Donald Trump and a crisis grips the nation, the way that
those Charlottesville protests did, and you`re a White House advisor, the
wave that the President handles a crisis like that, for better or for
worst, deserve or not, is going to reflect on you and your legacy.

More broadly, though, I think the really important takeaway here, in
addition to that, is the fact that Gary Cohn`s departure is sort of the
last gasp of the quote-unquote “globe-less” in the White House. From the
first - from inauguration day, the key tension within the White House
wasn`t Republicans versus moderates. It wasn`t tea party versus Jeb Bush
types. It was and always has been folks who are more interest in
increasing and liberalized global economy versus economic nationalists
which is also for people coming over that hasn`t faded. With Gary Cohn
leaving, the nationalists are going to dominate the conversation going

MELBER: And that is a policy part of it that is important. I also want to
bring in Cheri Jacobus, joining. a Republican official.

Cheri, another way to say it is he is quote-unquote “one of the adults.”
And in the Trump White House, that phrase always odd because it brings to
mind the idea of who is everyone else. Is it the Trump –?

We would like them all to be adults.

MELBER: Right. Is it other Trump family children? Is it other childlike
aides or what have you?

And yet, Betsy and John speaks to the policy. I was wondering what you
could speak to what this means on the politics and (INAUDIBLE) in this
coming amidst the time where there has been a significant strains on a
number of fronts on this White House.

WOODRUFF: Yes. And Cohn was somebody that we often heard his name pop-up
as a potential White House chief of staff at some point down the line since
Trump seems to go through a lot of staff. So as you said, there are no
adults left. And who is going to be, you know, the last person who leave
the Trump White House, please turn off the lights.

It`s getting a little bit scary. I mean, at some level, there is certain
people we sort of cheer when they leave, that we think don`t belong there,
but you kind of get a little nervous, when the people we perceive as
adults, the once we say, well look, as long as this one is here, the
general (ph) is there or Cohn is there, we feel a little bit better.

So there`s a lot to be nervous about just in terms of what`s going on at
the White House and the leadership and who can actually keep this
administration, this President in check, with one person who is perceived
as an adult, one of the few now gone, it`s a little bit frightening. I
would hate to think some of the people sitting around the table making big
decisions with the President now.

MELBER: Well. And you say that, Cheri, and this is the larger context, to
Sherry and then John Harwood. People following this have that feeling and
my colleague Rachel Maddow has put up on the screen, the incredibly large
number of people, as you said turn out the lights who are out the door. I
mean, you talk about Gary Cohn from the Goldman wing out tonight. You talk
about Hope Hicks, who is supposed to be the ultimate insider. You talk
about the pressure, vis-a-vis, John Kelly according to the “New York Times”
to get Ivanka and Jared out.

Cheri and then John, the context of that on this news.

House. You know, the President likes to brag that he is a stable genius,
but this is clearly a very unstable situation. And when the White House is
unstable, that means the country can become unstable and everybody can feel
uneasy for very good reason.

So at this point, regardless of what your politics are, everybody should be
and probably is a little bit nervous that a serious grown up has now just
departed this White House. So this is – it`s disturbing. I`m uneasy
about it. And it doesn`t make the President look good. He seems to think
it`s a good thing. He likes all that turnover and likes the chaos and
that`s disturbing as well.


HARWOOD: It`s not a good thing. This is a dysfunctional White House.
Everybody ought to be concerned about that. There`s two separate issues,
obviously. There`s the ideology, but there is also the normal orally
functioning of the White House. This was not an orderly rollout of this
policy. It wasn`t well thought out crew.

On the ideological part, I will say that, you know, Gary Cohn is going to
be replaced by somebody. Who does Donald Trump pick? If there are going
to be other market oriented republicans available to him, although fewer
and fewer people are going to want to go under this White House. And I
suspect if the markets punish him on a sustained basis for what he is
doing. And by the way, I`m coming to you from Pennsylvania where there is
a congressional race a week from now, that Donald Trump had in mind with
these tariffs. It is steel country outside of Pittsburgh. And this one of
the reason he is appealing.

But if you in fact have somebody with a similar profile to Gary Cohn in
response to a market downturn from this, then the ideology may not change
much all of the dysfunction will remain.

MELBER: Well. And Betsy, doesn`t that go to the point of Donald Trump`s
boastingly last week, trade wars are great and they are easy to win? It
seems like he just lost his general for this trade war.

WOODRUFF: Right, exactly. And I think “Axios” has reported that already,
it seems, as if as the White House has cancelled a meeting that Gary Cohn
had been trying to put together with CEOs of manufacturing companies that
use steel and aluminum that will be negatively, detrimentally impacted they
these tariffs. That meeting, according to their report, is not going to
happen. One of the first immediate reactions to Cohn leaving the White

We don`t have to theorize about what Cohn`s absence is going to mean. We
already see it. And what means is, potentially a slightly more stable
White House, but stable in the direction of protectionism, stable in the
direction of economic nationalism. And in way that Paul Ryan and
Republican leaders on the Hill are going to find deeply, deeply

MELBER: Cheri, what does it say to you that this was what moved Cohn to
leave and not other things?

JACOBUS: You know, I think there`s probably a lot of people that work for
this President who have had moments when they have had one foot out the
door and then there is – you can say that it is the straw that breaks the
camel`s back. My guess is there - I mean, I don`t know if Cohn falls in to
this category and if there is some people who will give any reason to run
for that exit door, just the next thing that happens. So I don`t know how
much I read in to that this –.

HARWOOD: So many reasons to leave this White House.

JACOBUS: There`s so many reasons to leave this White House. It will be
interesting to see what the Hill have to say about this. What Republicans
on Capitol Hill have to say, if not specifically about this particular
departure, just the disturbing number of, high number of people who are
just – I mean it`s like they are being thrown out of windows over there.
And this is not a good thing. It`s alarming.

And at some point our leaders are going to have - congressional leaders are
going to have to comment on it. They can`t act like this is normal, that
this is OK, because then they loses credibility. We know this isn`t OK.
This is not normal. So somebody has to at least be honest about that.

MELBER: Right. This is not normal. And as John was explaining, this
comes out of a policy making process that is wildly described even by
friends of the administration is completely and even embarrassingly broken.

John Harwood, for viewers who have heard a bit about trade wars, but aren`t
necessarily certain exactly what this all means about what comes next, give
us your best reporting and analysis on whether Cohn`s departure can be
interpreted as a sign that Donald Trump is going forward full steam with
all this rather than what we have seen on so many Trump in issues from
Russian to guns to taxes, which is when people do intervene and say I might
leave, sometimes it gets him to back off ideas that he hadn`t all the way
thought through.

HARWOOD: Ari, I think inherent in the way Donald Trump is practicing the
presidency is impulsiveness and contingency. That is to say, whatever the
reaction to any given step that he takes may determine the next action.

So that is why I was talking about the market reaction that Cohn leaving.
The big case for trade this year in 2018, is not the one we are talking
about now. It`s not steel and aluminum tariffs. It`s the case against
China on intellectual property.

The administration and the economic report of the President said China was
costing the United States hundreds of billions of dollars by stealing our
intellectual property. If this tariff decision is a sign that the
President is going to go all out against China to try to recoup that money,
then you are talking about a full blown trade conflict that will result in
higher prices for everybody. And it will likely put us into recession.

That`s why I would be cautious about interpreting that Donald Trump is
going to go there, because he can watch the movements of the market, he can
count the bottom line and you have to think he is at least going to
hesitate before a huge straight step like that rather than this smaller of
what he is taking right now.

MELBER: You know that this is a big economic political and American story
when we have right here at the table in a rolling coverage, my friend and
colleague Stephanie Reuhl, who many people know is an economic expert.

Let`s brought it out and talk about what it means to have someone like Gary
Cohn walk out the door.

STEPHANIE RUHLE, MSNBC ANCHOR: Gary Cohn isn`t just a Wall Street guy.
This is a guy who before he came to the White House has had one job his
entire adult life. He came to New York City after going to American
University in Washington and he worked at firm that was then acquired by
Goldman. But his Goldman Sach`s ID was the same picture he has when he was
a young kid. He left Goldman where he was the President and the COO to
join this administration. So it`s a big deal to see Gary walk away.

Now many people speculated that once Gary got tax reform done, he was most
likely going to leave, because he came there for a mission, he got that
done, he had never had political aspirations before. But, you can ask
yourself why now, why today?

Charlottesville wasn`t enough. You know he was highly offended after
President Trump`s remarks after Charlottesville. Gary, not just as being a
Jewish American but being a sensible American, was highly offended. But
not so offended that he decided to leave

This over the tariffs, why is that so offensive? It is so offensive
because Gary is there to works specifically on economic issues. And if
Gary is now getting road blocked, if the President won`t even listen to
him, and if someone named Peter Navarro - Peter Navarro who couldn`t get a
job at Goldman if his life depended on it, if he has the President`s ear on
trade issues that affect our country, corporate America, every citizen, if
Peter Navarro has the President`s ear and Gary doesn`t, Gary`s simply going
to say, thank you, sir, but I`m going to go.

MELBER: Cheri, I want to put this in a larger context of the musical
chairs at the White House because it wouldn`t be a Trump departure story if
there wasn`t one more weird, final indecisive Presidential wrinkle. I`m
reading from the “New York Times” story out team just handed me, that says
Mr. Cohn`s plan to leave fall on conversation he had in recent weeks with
the President about the possibility of quote “replacing John Kelly as chief
of staff,” said people who were briefed on the matter.

The President quote “never formally offered Mr. Cohn the job. These people
insisted.” But Mr. Trump had had discussions with him about whether he
would be interested.

I mean you kind of get the feeling that the help wanted sign is just always
out and they move it from office to office. And so I guess the question
is, is this any way to run the White House? And what does it tell you that
he might have become chief of staff and the most important guy around, guy
or gal, and then now is gone.

JACOBUS: Well, couple of things. I just said a few minutes ago, Gary
Cohn`s name is one that is floated around all the time as a possible White
House chief of staff. So it doesn`t surprise me that it just came out a
minute ago now that you are reading it - this to me.

But look. We already know that Donald Trump loves pitting people against
each other. And I think he is very intimidated by the grownups in the
White House. The adults as we are calling them, and the generals, and the
Gary Cohn.

Ultimately, he is intimidated by these people. He likes controlling them.
And he likes seeing them fight. He wants them to feel like they are not
quite safe. That at any moment he can get rid of them. And I guess he
thinks that is a bad thing. I think some of them would say thank God, get
me out of here.

But I think a lot of it is just that. He likes to keep people at the edge
of their seats and pits them against each other. We have seen this time
and time again in this White House. And we have heard that this is how he
has always handled his business. So the fact that he had Cohn in there
talking about replacing Kelly, doesn`t surprise me one bit.

MELBER: Stephanie, tie it all together for us.

RUHLE: Gary has also learned that no one has leverage over Trump. While
people could say all the time, listen. We are so happy that, you know,
people in the market would say, we are really glad that Gary`s there. It
is safe hands.

Trump doesn`t like to hear that. Trump never wants to feel like there`s an
adult in the room other than him. And there have been a lot of reporting
that Gary has threaten to go. He is unhappy. Trump doesn`t like to hear
that. He feels like, remember this –.


is an adult?


RUHLE: No, you remember this is Donald, I and I alone Trump. And so Gary
Cohn is finally saying, you know what? I`m going to go. And maybe he
thought he had leverage over President Trump, saying, President Trump, I`m
going to leave over this. And maybe Trump said fine, go. But guess what
the market isn`t going to like? This.

MELBER: Yes. This is a big story on economics, on politics, and on the
structure of the White House is, as we have reported, for a range of
reason, is under a ton of strain.

I want to thank my experts here, John Harwood, Betsy Woodruff, Cheri
Jacobus and Stephanie Ruhle doing breaking news with me.

And mentioned again, the other big thing on “the Beat” tonight. More
witnesses speaking out. I have a live interview with a Mueller probe
witness, we are going to go live inside the room, what is he asking? What
does he want to know? We are going to hear directly from the wife of
George Papadopoulos.

And later, Roger Stone back in the news, the longtime Trump aided emerges
in this new interview. My legal breakdown on what it means and bad news
for the White House.

Also, the man who literally once said he would take a bullet for Donald
Trump, Michael Cohen also a focus of the Mueller probe. What does it have
to do with the plans for Trump tower in Moscow?

I promise you, we have a lot more on “the Beat” tonight.

I`m Ari Melber. And we will be right back.


MELBER: And now as promised, I turn to my exclusive interview tonight,
Simon Mangiante joins the ranks of Mueller witnesses speaking out. And her
case, to tie comes by family. She is married to the former Trump aide who
reportedly kicked off the FBI probe and to Trump-Russian collusion in the
first place. Mangiante was George Papadopoulos`s fiance when he first pled
guilty in this probe on October. He was the first person to plead. They
were married, I can say, last Friday.

Simona, congratulations. And welcome back to the show.

very much. Good afternoon, Ari.

MELBER: Good afternoon to you.

As you know, we are in an interesting period, hearing from multiple
witnesses, Mr. Nunberg yesterday, Roger Stone today, and you here tonight
on “the Beat.” When you heard Mr. Nunberg criticize the Mueller
investigators and say their search was overbroad, he felt initially unfair,
how does that compare with your experience since you did an interview with

MANGIANTE: First of all, there is something that being interview with the
FBI teach me. And it is basically that is a witness. He is the worst
place (INAUDIBLE) of each contribution in the context of the testimony. So
I don`t agree at all with Mr. Nunberg when he says it`s completely useless.
He refuse to cooperate a time that to comply with tis invitation, the

He is surprised to be subpoenaed, but until the moment of the interview, I
couldn`t understand myself the real events of my contribution. The FBI and
the prosecutor have certainly have biggest picture to which we can
contribute is to be truthful.

And I will say something as well concerning my situation. I was not simply
voluntarily talking to the FBI. I was subpoenaed to appear in front of the
grand jury in Washington myself. And if Mr. Nunberg is surprised that
being an American citizen and having worked with Trump, you can imagine how
surprising I was being a foreign citizen on foreign in the U.S. soil and
having nothing to do with the Trump campaign, about my relationship with
George Papadopoulos.

So even in this context, which was surely particular, and some lawyers in
Europe challenged also the legitimacy of the subpoena itself. Because
again, it was not a voluntary cooperation, as it often after work. It was
an order to appear in front of the grand jury. It was dropped off.

Yes, it was an order. So I was happy to cooperate and either or not you
think this contribution is going to be significant, it`s something you have
to do for your country. And as I said, I did it as an Italian citizen and
when George already pled guilty. So it was even less clear to me the
reason why they would like to subpoena, to talk to me, or subpoena me
because he was pleading guilty. I don`t think they were going to indict
him, using me to indict him out of crime.

MELBER: Right. You are raising – you`re raising an important legal point
as we hear from different witnesses, which is the whole way the probe
works, you don`t necessarily know why they want you or what it means. It
sounds like you`re suggesting you learned more once you participated. I
also want to read to you some brand-new news that came out about this
professor that tied you into this, who you worked for, Joseph Mifsud,
because BuzzFeed has this rather extraordinary report that his biography
has disappeared from the university where he taught, he quit his job, his
e-mail and cell phones went dead.

And now politicians, colleagues, journalists can`t find him, neither can
Anna, who is his 31-year-old Ukrainian fiance, and she says he was the
father of their newborn child. The implication in that article is that his
role as an intermediary in these offers of dirt on Hillary Clinton and
other things that may or may not have occurred regarding Russian
interference may have led to him either going underground himself or in
some other way disappearing. You knew him, your response?

MANGIANTE: Yes, I knew Mifsud and as I said, I realized how important was
my testimony when I was with the FBI and they have me about this
connection. To me, it makes perfectly sense it could be a Russian asset.
The fact that he disappeared completely confirmed my first idea that he was
the most shady figure I ever met in my life, his connection to Russia are
clear right now. It is appeared also to the one who is now the mother of
his child and he disappeared also from Rome. I tried to contact the people
that knew Mifsud, just to inquire about if they knew big about him, and no
one of them seemed to know where he is. So he completely disappeared from
earth. To me this is highly suspicious and confirms that he`s a key person
in this Mueller investigation and confirms why the prosecutor was
interested in talking about Mifsud –

MELBER: You say the prosecutor was – let me ask you this. You said the
prosecutor was interested. Did they ask questions that seemed to try to
ascertain whether Mifsud who`s now missing, whether he was in their view
potentially a Russian asset?

MANGIANTE: I think they were interested, absolutely. They had it already
figure it out. I think at the stage that they talked with me, they wanted
to know my connection with Mifsud and if I introduced George to Mifsud.
That was one of the biggest question mark and I helped them with the
chronology of facts and I clarified that it was simply coincidence, but it
makes perfect sense that they talk to my witness was so important. That`s
why I said it`s really big to say no, it`s – I`m not going to testify
because I don`t think it`s important. We don`t know actually.

MELBER: Right, we don`t know what lead their working. I want you to stay
with me, I`m going to bring in a Legal Analyst and colleague of ours Nick
Akerman and if you want to continue participate as I like to extend that
offer to people who take their time to share with us, that remains open.
Nick, your response to what we`re learning?

NICK AKERMAN, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: I think what we`re learning is what you
absolutely expect from a prosecutor`s office. What they`re trying to do is
put together the facts. She had information that supplemented or
complemented what George Papadopoulos was telling the government. They
want to corroborate what he`s saying and certainly, she was in a position
to do that. And she was probably in a position to offer other facts that
the government didn`t necessarily know about. So if you`re doing a
thorough investigation, it seems to me that what`s being described here is
totally reasonable.

MELBER: And Simona, take a listen to what was said about your then-fiance,
now-husband, George Papadopoulos who has figured so prominently into
aspects of this by the White House.


Papadopoulos is an example of actually somebody doing the wrong thing while
the President`s campaign did the right thing. All of his emails were
voluntarily provided to the special counsel by the campaign. What
Papadopoulos did was lie and that`s on him, not on the campaign and we
can`t speak for that.


MELBER: What`s your response of view of that?

MANGIANTE: Well, they decline to phase the substance of the lie. We are
talking about a professor offering dirt on Hillary Clinton and they simply
said he did something wrong when he lied, as I said, about the dates of
this professor. But to me, it`s a way to avoid to face the substance of
the matter.

AKERMAN: Yes, I mean, I think that`s right. I mean, they – sure, they`re
going to try and accuse George Papadopoulos of being a liar. That`s going
to be their theme at trial. They`re going to accuse Rick Gates of being a
liar. They`re going to accuse Michael Flynn of being a liar.

MELBER: You think if Trump folks have to make some kind of defense against
these other people implicated that.

AKERMAN: Exactly.

MELBER: By cooperating with Mueller?

AKERMAN: Right. But you can`t – they`re all going to be saying pretty
much the same thing. I mean, there`s going to be lots of corroboration,
there`s going to be e-mails, there`s going to be documents and I`ll bet
there`s even tapes that they will have that will corroborate these

MELBER: And briefly, do you know why we`re hearing more from witnesses

AKERMAN: I think part of it is that there are more witnesses being spoken
to, more people are feeling comfortable talking to the press about it.
They don`t have to but I think you`re just finding more and more people
that are willing to say what`s being asked. Now, if you`re a defense
lawyer, you want to know what all these people are saying because that
gives you an idea of where this whole probe is going and what they think is
going on and it gives you an idea, into the minds of the cooperating
witnesses and what kind of information they`re providing.

MELBER: Right. And that is so crucial. I want to thank Nick Akerman and
Simona Mangiante, thank you both tonight.

AKERMAN: Thank you.

MANGIANTE: Thank you.

MELBER: We have a lot more. There is the breaking news, this top White
House aide out, Gary Cohn. This is a shakeup that has come at a time when
Donald Trump has been reported to be angry and unglued. We have reports on
that. Plus, more on the Russia probe. Why Roger Stone is speaking out
after Mr. Nunberg and live from the White House with all of this in just 90


MELBER: Breaking news this hour. One of Donald Trump`s top advisors
resigning. This is the economic aide I was mentioning earlier, Gary Cohn
from Goldman Sachs. And this follows this big fight over Donald Trump`s
controversial move. And then look at all the other departures including
down there at the bottom, Hope Hicks and Gary Cohn. Those are two key
departures at a time when the White House has been under significant
strain. I want to go to Jess McIntosh who has worked for the Clinton
campaign, she`s Executive Editor of Shareblue and you have joined me at
this table at moments like this.


MELBER: Any one departure, whether it would be Hope Hicks, or Rob Porter,
or Sean Spicer, or Reince Priebus, or the National Security Adviser, any
one could be explainable if you want to give anybody the benefit of the
doubt. Here we are at this table again at this night, we have Gary Cohn,
may not be a household name, very important to Wall Street and to Goldman
Sachs, there are plenty of people who disagree with Goldman Sachs running
policy for both parties by the way. But it does feel, tell me your view
bigger than that because we`re back here again.

MCINTOSH: I think we`re at the point where all of the ancillary cast
characters are now gone, like to go with the reality show theme because
that`s clearly the kind of White House he intends to run the whole way
through like we`re down to the core characters now. So now when people
leave, it really – Hope Hicks was someone that we knew, we were invested
in that character, and now she`s gone. What I`m just shocked by every time
is that somebody – the reaction seems to be why didn`t Gary Cohn leave
during Charlottesville, why – he was so upset about that apparently. He
wrote a resignation letter that the President didn`t accept or he decided
not to give it. He decided to stay. Like, why tariff? Why the trade war?

And I think at a certain level, we have to understand, these are all
people. Every single one of them who decided to work for this White House,
they decided to work for this man, after the campaign that he ran which
included over racism, credible allegations of sex assault and lots of
pandering to Nazis. They all said OK and they signed right up. So
eventually there`s a straw that`s going to break the camel`s back, but it`s
never going to be that thing. It`s always going to be their pet piece
which for Gary Cohn I guess was you know, stability in Canadian import

MELBER: Right, so it won`t always be the white supremacist straw. It will
be the latest straw

MCINTOSH: No, it will never be. It will never be the white supremacist

MELBER: I spoke – I spoke to someone in Washington recently who said you
know, what Trump aide hasn`t told some friends they`re thinking of
leaving, which has been the thing that you hear when they finally leave,
because there are other people who need an off-ramp, but have to find a
good reason to get out.

MCINTOSH: Yes, well, I think at a certain point, they are all undermining
their own credibility by continuing to work for this person. He makes them
do really – like degrading the lies that, especially the coms team has to
do. That`s going to make it tough to really take you seriously ever again
in your career. I don`t know where Sean Spicer is going to wind up, but
whoever he has as clients, they have to know that he doesn`t come with a
ton of credibility. We all know he`s willing to lie for his boss. The
same goes for Hope Hicks now. I just think you know, they all decided to
get in. It`s going to be hard to get out but that it`s that first decision
that really matters.

MELBER: Right. Put this in the context of what has been another rough
week for the President. Mr. Nunberg`s domination of the public discussion
of the Russia probe, but as I mentioned at the top of our hour, what
everyone thinks about him and what he said, he disclosed very real
information, including these 10 individuals under scrutiny in the Mueller
probe, right?


MELBER: Then you add to that Donald Trump`s appearance today where I think
it`s safe to say based on what we`ve gathered now, he knew then that Gary
Cohn was leaving. He seemed very sort of disheveled, down. I don`t want
to do a lot of body language, it`s not my expertise, but it was not the
normal voluble President. And then he looks up and again, this is the
context for this. And within the last hour and a half, he has his longtime
advisor Roger Stone going on T.V. and trying to make sense of what Mr.
Nunberg at one point said yesterday, which was I`m willing to go to jail to
defend Roger Stone, but he didn`t do anything wrong. And you at to that
what I saw a journalistic account say today in a nonpartisan publication,
in Bloomberg basically said to say that any one of these things is a
sideshow or just a function of who Mr. Nunberg is or who Mr. Stone is or
who Mr. Papadopoulos is, is to forget the point you just led with. Every
single one of these people was hired by Donald Trump.

MCINTOSH: Yes. And of course, yesterday, before we were talking about
what Sam Nunberg did on your show, we were talking about the bombshell
report that the Kremlin maybe tipped the scale of who became America`s
Secretary of State. We have very important stories about the fate of our
democracy coming out one after another, as the Mueller Russia investigation
closes in and really starts drilling down on this. So it`s almost
impossible to keep tabs on, like, what matters on any given day, but I
0think we`re starting to see this mass exodus more because the staff knows
that they`re liable every day they stay there, every conversation they
overhear. I mean, they know that the White House is a liability now. And
maybe they`re finally –

MELBER: Although to be fair, exodus was 40 – took 40 years.

MCINTOSH: Yes, it`s true.

MELBER: It took longer. Stay with me. Kristen Welker, this is a big
breaking story, and she has agreed to join us from the White House, where I
know you`ve been furiously reporting this out. What can you tell us?

all, the timing is stunning. It came just a few hours after the press
conference that the President had today, a number of the reporters in the
room noticed that there was an empty chair for Gary Cohn, a placard with
his name, Sarah Sanders wound up sitting in that chair. And President was
asked at that press conference if they were going to be more staff shake-
ups. He didn`t want to talk in specifics, but he talked about the fact
that in his words, everyone wants a piece of the Oval Office and at the
same time, of course, he`s looking at his staff all the time to try to make
them better.

He likes conflict, he said. He likes differing opinions. And then we got
this stunning news. To put this into context, we have been reporting about
the fact that Gary Cohn has been privately been infuriated by the
President`s threat of new tariffs, by the threat of a trade war, something
that the President doubled down on today and we know that he was
threatening to quit. And so today he, in fact, took that step but of
course, this isn`t the first time.

MELBER: Kristen, you said – I want to pick up on what you just said,
which is, we`re talking about a real estate magnet here, you said, this is
valuable, this piece of real estate at the White House. I think the
question here based on the Trump on filling some post is whether this
President has devalued this property?

WELKER: Well, and to some extent, he may have, I mean, look, this voice
within the White House, many people saw as a stabilizing voice. Gary Cohn
is a Democrat, he`s a free trade Democrat, he`s someone who`s been a
counterbalance to President Trump in so many different instances, someone
who can say he disagrees with the President when it comes to economic
policy. And so there are real concerns about who will fill that void.
Steve Mnuchin is not seen as filling that void, not having that
counterweight to the President and also Ari, this announcement was made
after the markets closed. That was likely done on purpose. This White
House is bracing for a response in the markets. They`re going to be
watching the Asian markets closely overnight.

MELBER: Right. Unless the markets don`t open tomorrow, you can always
hope as a contingency plan. You don`t have to answer that. Kristen
Welker, thank you for running to a camera and joining THE BEAT with your
special coverage and Jess, thank you as always for joining me. Up ahead as
promised, we turn to the other big news. Roger Stone, breaking his
silence, a potential witness. I have my legal breakdown, a special report
on what this means in his defense of WikiLeaks, that`s next.


MELBER: Now our special report, why is Bob Mueller asking for information
on Roger Stone, and why did Roger Stone just join Sam Nunberg in speaking
out? Nunberg told me he believes Mueller`s building a case.


SAM NUNBERG, FORMER AIDE, TRUMP CAMPAIGN: They`re trying to set up a
perjury case against Roger Stone and I`m not going to have them. Roger is
my mentor, Roger is like family to me and I`m not going to do it. I`m not
going to do it. Roger is my mentor, like a father to me. I don`t care.
I`m not going to go into a grand jury for them to set up a case against
Roger, whatever case it is which could be ridiculous.


MELBER: Now, those could be just theories of a stressed and loyal
lieutenant. But then tonight Stone, this long-time media strategist,
affectedly batted clean up in his mentees media tour and said this.


it at my behest or my direction. I would certainly not have advised him to
ignore or refuse a document production subpoena. I was pleased to read
today that he`s changed his mind about that.


MELBER: Stone stressing he wants Nunberg to cooperate. But why do so many
roads seem to lead to Roger Stone? The Trump advise is one of ten people
on the subpoena which I discussed of course last night. Of all the things
Nunberg said, his insistence on defending Stone was striking. Roger Stone
a famous political operative, one of the closest advisers to Trump, a self-
proclaimed provocateur, and dirty trickster. He`s long pushed the limits
in politics and argued a kind of equivalence for gutter politics.


STONE: One man`s dirty trick is another man`s political civic action.
Everything I do, everything I`ve ever done has been legal. Politics isn`t
beanbag and losers don`t legislate.


MELBER: He was a loyal Nixon operative. He worked for Reagan`s re-
election, and then he ran that profitable political consulting firm with
you see it there, Paul Manafort. When Trump first flirted with running for
president in 2000, Roger Stone was there and he was there when Trump began
running this time. And while he did leave the formal campaign, he was an
outside ally attacking opponents from Cruz to Clinton, creating organizing
groups to try to help Trump at the convention as well as the general
election. But what`s proven most controversial and of interest to Mueller
was the support for Julian Assange.


STONE: First of all, I think Julian Assange is a hero. I think he`s
taking on the deep state both Republican and Democrat. I expect you`re
going to see more from Mr. Assange who again, I think is a hero.

We have mutual acquaintance who is a fine gentleman. I happen to be one
who thinks that Assange is a hero.


MELBER: Mueller probing whether that hero was involved in helping the
Russians, Stone`s own record raising those questions. Look at this.
August 2016, Stone says he knew about key information against Clinton from
at Assange intermediary. He also seemed to predict the hacking of Chairman
John Podesta saying trust me, it will be his time in the barrel. Assange
Web site, of course, WikiLeaks release those e-mails and then these
messages from WikiLeaks to Stone leaked in it the Atlantic just was just
last with this message, happy we`re now much more free to communicate after
the election. Now, tonight, Stone disclaimed any advance knowledge of
Russian hacks.


STONE: My direct messages with Guccifer 2.0 if that`s who it really is
come six weeks – almost six weeks after the DNC e-mails had been published
by WikiLeaks. So in order to collude in their hacking which I had nothing
whatsoever to do with, one would have need a time machine.


MELBER: After Trump`s election, but before Mueller was appointed, I myself
asked Roger Stone if he`d been to Russia and his view of WikiLeaks given
what we`ve learned.


MELBER: Have you been to Russia?

STONE: I have never been to Russia. I have no contacts in Russia. I had
no contact with any representatives of the Russian state or Russian
intelligence. I had no knowledge – pardon me – I had no contacts with
people who might have been go-betweens. Some say Assange is publishing
stolen documents. Well, The New York Times published the Pentagon papers.
The courts has said it was legal to do so.


MELBER: Lots of love for Assange. Now, the most benign explanation would
be that maybe Stone`s everywhere because he wants to think he`s everywhere.


STONE: The only thing I can think of worse than being talked about is not
being talked about.


MELBER: Self-promotion could be his best defense. But note what else
Stone just told MSNBC within the last two hours. He hasn`t been called in
by Mueller as a witness even as Mueller asks other people about Stone. And
the question becomes, if you`re the last one into court, is that because
the prosecutor wants you to be the defendant?


MELBER: The breaking news that started this broadcast, White House
Economic Adviser Gary Cohn out and he joins a large list that you`ve seen
before, high profile departures under Trump, the lower right-hand corner
two important people Hope Hicks, a Trump confidant and Gary Cohn leaving
over tariffs a past critic of Trump`s white supremacist comments.
Sometimes it can`t stop because it won`t stop. That does it for me.
Thanks for watching THE BEAT. We`re here every night at 6:00 p.m. Eastern.
Now I hand it over to HARDBALL with Chris Matthews starting now.

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: Bend overboard. Let`s play HARDBALL.


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