Show: THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER Date: January 18, 2018
CHUCK TODD, MSNBC HOST, MEET THE PRESS: We are back tomorrow on more on "MTP Daily." "The Beat" with Ari Melber, who has great head of hair, starts right now.
Good evening, Ari.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: For now, Chuck, for now. Thank you, Chuck Todd.
We have several developing stories tonight including why authorities are probing if Russia used the NRA to help Donald Trump win the election.
Also, my exclusive tonight with a former aide to Paul Manafort who says he could go to jail all because of his own desperate need for relevance. She will give her inside account.
But we begin, of course, with these stories in Washington right now. We are now entering the eve of the deadline for a government shutdown. And while it may have seemed unlikely after last month's Republican tax unity, now GOP infighting could actually take the party toward a humiliating failure in public tomorrow night. It would be a shutdown fuel according to today's news by, and this is according to Republican, congressional sources, Donald Trump's own misunderstanding of the plan they are pushing. We are looking here of course at some live images of the house where the debate continues. The key vote coming in just about an hour. Trump this morning though not ruling out a shutdown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, are you expecting a government shutdown sir?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It could happen. We will see what happens. It's up to the Democrats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Two leading senate Republicans also casting down on where Donald Trump stands and whether he even knows what's in the deal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R), MAJORITY LEADER: As soon as we figure out what he is for, then I would be convinced that we were not just spinning our wheels going to this issue on the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The President says that chip shouldn't see a 30-day or short-term extension.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: I think -- I don't know whether it's clear to the President what we are trying to do is reauthorize chip long-term, and not just for 30 days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: There's a little jargon there, but that was a burn, I don't know if the President knows what we're doing on what is now the biggest story in America, if the government's going to shut down.
Here's the context, though, if you watch this news program, you know about chip. We have covered it a lot. A key health care program for children that the Congress let expire. Now the issue here is that Donald Trump appeared completely embarrassingly unaware his own party is trying to use that program as a bargaining chip in this morning's tweet.
Also, tension right now with Donald Trump's chief of staff. Trump reportedly furious after John Kelly allegedly described the president's immigration viewed as evolving. That was follow up on his other statements to Congress in this FOX interview
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KELLY, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: It's been an evolutionary process that this President has gone through as a campaign. And pointed out to all of members in the room that they all say things during the course of the campaign that may not be fully informed. He has evolved in the way he looks at things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Now in his book, "the art of the deal," Donald Trump does boast a lot about deal-making skills. You may have seen this quote.
"My style of deal-making is quite simple and straight forward. I aim very high. And then I just keep pushing and pushing and pushing to get what I'm after."
And you know what? Let's be fair, when Donald Trump was seeking attention. That quote may have been true. He knew what he was after. Or when Donald Trump was seeking hotel renovations, that may have been true. He knew what he was after, golden doorknobs or larger lettering on a hotel awning somewhere.
But tonight, America is reckoning. What about now that he is in-charge of our nation's federal policy? If he really doesn't know what he is after, does he not know whether he wants a deal? Does he not know whether he is after children's healthcare as a compromised part of this bill or not?
This apparent incompetence via tweet suggests that the President at this late hour with a deadline approaching doesn't know what he is after.
I'm going to speak in a moment to Democratic senator Mazie Hirono who was in that Trump immigration meeting last week.
But first, right here in San Francisco, I'm joined by the former mayor of San Francisco, Willie Brown, as well as Tom Steyer, a Democratic political donor who has pledged to spend $30 million to change the balance of power through the midterms. And I'm joined by Max Boot, a foreign policy analyst and former advisor to Mitt Romney. His new book is the road not taken, a "New York times" bestseller.
Max, I begin with you. As a conservative, you probably agree with Senator Cornyn on certain things throughout his record. But as a matter of just what's happening, he seemed to just say, the President doesn't know what he is doing, doesn't know what's in the deal, and that makes it harder to get to one. Your view?
MAX BOOT, SENIOR FELLOW, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, obviously Senator Cornyn is basically saying what we all know that the emperor has no clothing. And it really is at odds with this assumptions that Republicans had a year ago when the Trump presidency was beginning which you often heard from people like Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan is, will pass the legislation, put it in front of the President and he will sign it and it will work out just fine.
Well, in the year since then, we all have seen is that very hard to do get anything done on Capitol Hill without Presidential leadership. And it sure is hard to have any kind of presidential leadership when the President doesn't know the basics of the legislation. And you saw this all the time, last week Trump almost flew up reauthorization of the foreign intelligence surveillance ac because he tweeted against it before being told, oops, his administration was actually favor the act, not opposed to it. Then he sort of probably did blow up a deal on the DREAMERs, with his horrendous comments about the whole countries. And now this week, you know, he doesn't understand what's going on with chip, the children's health insurance program, and he is making go on foreign comments apparently on the bases of what he is seeing in FOX and Friends. And so I think what we are seeing revealed is there are sharp limitations to having a president who doesn't read and can't grasp the basic legislation. He can't provide the kind of leadership that Congress needs.
MELBER: Yes. And I think you make such a good point. I want to go to Mayor Brown who is a veteran of many of these kinds of disputes.
Max Boot says the President doesn't read. That's a more indicting offense than saying someone can't read. Because the President could choose to read. He is choosing not to read and to embarrass himself and by extension his party with this healthcare debate today.
WILLIE BROWN, FORMER SAN FRANCISCO MAYOR: What I suspect is that has been the way in which he is conducted his life period. There's always been an opportunity at the last minute on one of the deal of the deals where he did not need to have any recollection of history, he didn't need to have any understanding of the global nature of the subject matter with which he is dealing, and therefore he has performed the same way.
But let me tell you as an aside, I totally disagree with the Congress. I believe that Congress should not even be visiting the White House to discuss what ought to be the decisions that they will make and put on his desk. They just should put them on his desk. Many times he would probably sign them because he would never read them.
MELBER: And you make the point then. Your advice to the Democrats would be get whatever you can get through the reasonable part of the Republican caucus. Don't even engage in the fiction of this public debate because these tweets reveal there's nothing to debate.
BROWN: That is absolutely with him. There's nothing to debate because he really doesn't believe in anything apparently, not to the extent that he is willing to defend it. Except all the outrageous things he said during the course of the campaign. And clearly, campaigns are not public policy.
MELBER: Let me read, Tom Steyer, from a "Daily Beast" report again here. Some of this sounds like criticism of the President and it's not. I mean the implication might make him look bad, but most of this are just facts emerging from the process in the Congress. This is a congressional source at the "Daily Beast," brand new.
Quote "frankly, nobody knows what the heck Trump is arguing for, not playing coy, literally, none of our policy staffers have cracked the code.
TOM STEYER, DEMOCRATIC DIRECTOR/FOUNDER, NEXTGEN AMERICA: Look. I think everyone is arguing here and I listen to Willie Brown as the smartest person I know in politics. And so I listen really seriously. But everyone is talking about incompetence, and I want to talk about something else which is dishonesty.
MELBER: OK.
STEYER: I don't know why he can't be consistent. I don't know why his word is not his bond. But I know that he ended up in 2500 lawsuits with people saying that he didn't live up to a contract.
So the problem I think everyone in Washington D.C. is suddenly discovering his lo and behold when Mr. Trump says something, it doesn't mean a darn thing. They brought him a bipartisan immigration deal last week, and he blew it up.
The fact of the matter is you can't negotiate with someone who doesn't tell the truth. And you can't negotiate with someone who when he says yes, means yes and doesn't use it as an opportunity to reopen it. And that's what they are discovering is yes doesn't mean yes and no doesn't mean no, and you are in a world where everything changes all the time.
MELBER: And you are a liberal billionaire, is that fair?
STEYER: That's one way - that's not the way I would describe myself, but that's not totally inaccurate.
BROWN: I share your view.
MELBER: Well, Mr. Mayor, how would you describe him?
BROWN: That's a perfect description.
STEYER: Follow up that description with a question.
MELBER: Well, this is what I'm going to say. You could be described as a liberal billionaire or a Tesla billionaire, if you want to put it that way.
STEYER: (INAUDIBLE).
MELBER: But you are saying something from your perspective, and your life experience that I want to say overlaps - I will come back to you, overlaps with something that a very conservative guest of ours, Max Boot, has been saying, which is you cannot deal with someone who is constantly lying to you, Max. You cannot make a deal or a contract or come to an agreement when dishonesty is the underlying point.
So my point is that Tom and you have advocated that position as something that needs to go into how we deal with Donald Trump. We in the press, we in the public and those in the congress.
So let me play for you for analysis, Max, a very odd thing that the President was saying today, about what the real scoop is what he thinks the Democrats are up to. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, the wall has been something that I have been very consistent on always.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You wished Mr. Kelly would have explained it a little more clearly?
TRUMP: No. He is great, I think he is doing a great job. I think General Kelly as done a really gate job. He is a very special guy.
I really believe the Democrats want a shutdown to get off the subject of the tax cuts because they have worked so well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: You hear him Max praising General Kelly which is fine, and then going to say that Democrats want this? What do you make of that?
BOOT: Well, I think the larger picture that we are drawing here is that Donald Trump is an unparalleled combination of mendacity and ignorance of the kind that we have never seen before in the oval office and that makes it impossible to deal with him. I mean, among other milestones that he has achieved in his presidency, one of the most significant to the point that was just being made is that that last week according to "the Washington Post," he committed his 2,000th lie. I mean that is a rate of BS'ing which no politician in the history of the world has ever exceeded. And that of course, does make an extremely difficult to reach any kind of deal with him especially coupled with the fact that he doesn't understand the basics of the deal that he is supposedly reaching. And so, therefore, he is liable to say something completely different the next day when he is prompted to do so by FOX and Friends.
I mean, you know, I mean I agree with some of the other comments we are hearing here. I don't know how you deal with somebody like that. And I think it's pretty naive, you know, the comment that Lindsey Graham made after the infamous shithole meeting last week where he said.
You know, Donald Trump was very reasonable earlier in the week. Where is that Donald Trump? Well, let's get him back, the deal maker. Well, you know, Donald Trump changes, you know, roughly every five minutes or so, based on some tweet, based on, you know, what he sees on FOX and friends. There is no, you know, a long-term commitment with him is about a couple of hours, so it's very hard to have any kind of deals with him. And you know, it's hard to know what he even wants as these congressional leaders have said, because his rhetoric is so incomprehensible and contradictory.
MELBER: I want to get to the senator who is going to give us her view and update from the ground. But Tom, final word.
STEYER: Listen. When we think about this president and when we think about 2018, to me it's simple. This is about understanding the difference between right and wrong, and he doesn't. So the fact of the matter is, we are saying it's difficult to deal with him because he lies. But the fact that he can't tell the truth, that he doesn't know that the truth is important, that his word is important, goes right along with the fact that he doesn't understand that respecting the dignity and the rights of Americans is importance. That he doesn't understand that respecting the press is important. That he doesn't understand right from wrong, the law matters.
And so, when we see this, you can say he is incompetent, and that happens to be true. But the relevant point for us in 2018 is we are being asked to look at ourselves in the mirror and say do we as a country, do we as a people know the difference between right and wrong, and he doesn't.
MELBER: Tom Steyer, Mayor Willie Brown, and Max Boot, I want to thank each of you for your analysis of what is shaping up to be a big night on Capitol Hill.
And for more on that, I turn to the Democratic senator Mazie Hirono from Hawaii.
Senator, you were in that meeting with the President negotiating earlier. There are people who look at this and question, is this another bout of Washington theatrics or do you view this and this potential shutdown as something that could affect every day Americans, what do you want people to know?
SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D), HAWAII: What I want people to know is that the Republicans control the House, the Senate and the presidency. And for them to be working so hard, rather than negotiating in good faith with Democrats to prevent a government shutdown. They are working so hard to push the argument that those people, the Democrats who are not in control, are going to be at fault, that we will be responsible for the shutdown.
That is really childish in my view. You know, that's totally not taking responsibility. So once again, we see the instance where the President can't be relied upon to take any particular position or to even care about what we need from him.
So I agree with my friend, Willie Brown, that we should go ahead. We are a separate branch of government. Let us pass the bipartisan legislation that's already in place to protect DACA and children's health and community health centers and let's vote on those matters and get that to the President and then he can veto them and really, it's on him.
MELBER: Senator, I have to ask you a very simple question. I work in television journalism, so sometimes I ask the simple questions. How would it be the Democrats' fault when the Republicans are in control of all the political branches of government if the government shuts down?
HIRONO: Exactly. But they think that they can pull the wall over the eyes of the American people. And I would say that the American public is not buying it and that's why they are just so nervous and they are very frightened about what might be in store for them.
MELBER: And last question, I know we are tight on time. What did you learn being in that televised meeting with the President? I know you pressed him for details on how he might support an actual DACA solution, that at least from our observation seemed to be what you were after in the meeting. What did you learn?
HIRONO: I learned that the President is unreliable, he lies, I think he doesn't even realize when he is contradicting himself, and therefore Congress as a separate branch of government should check the excesses of this President and do our jobs.
MELBER: Senator, Mazie Hirono, thank you for your perspective. Thank you for you clarity.
HIRONO: Thank you.
MELBER: And we wish you, and everyone, luck out there in the Congress. Maybe they need it heading towards this deadline.
Up ahead, as I mentioned, the other big story, the FBI investigating whether Russian money went to the NRA to try to help Donald Trump, a potential crime. The reporter who has that big scoop is on "the Beat" tonight.
Also developing news on these investigations and looking at whether executive privilege is something Trump can use to silence Steve Bannon before the House intelligence committee? We have a legal breakdown on that.
And later, Steve Bannon called Paul Manafort treasonous and made a major allegation. My exclusive tonight with someone who is hired by Manafort now talking about his character.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Paul didn't feel like he had to play by the rules in an industry where you usually got away with it. And this time, he didn't get away with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: All that plus Donald Trump making an unusual approach to the stump with his shutdown looming.
I'm Ari Melber live in San Francisco. You are watching "the BEAT" on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: The other big story, Steve Bannon could be held in contempt of Congress if he refuses to answer big questions about the Russia probe. Now why wouldn't he be talking? There is a new report that says it is because Donald Trump personally intervened on foreign policy, reporting two sources with quote "firsthand knowledge about all this" say Donald Trump personally made a decision to limit in his testimony was all because a person in the White House counsel's office said the administration could have legitimate executive privilege claims to restricted testimony by Bannon.
Now they might have claim through executive privilege. And by the way, if that's the White House council's position, it makes perfect sense that they would try to lawfully limit Bannon's testimony.
But then again, there's something else here. Take a listen to White House chief of staff John Kelly last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the White House tell him to invoke executive privilege?
KELLY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No?
KELLY: No. Steve has had very, very little contact with the White House since he left. With the exception of a few phone calls here and there, very, very little contact with the White House.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: According to foreign policy magazine, John Kelly is either out of the loop or not being truthful. We will stay on that part of the story. But there is more.
And another Trump staffer also ducking questions, top aide Hope Hicks was supposed to testify before the House Intel committee tomorrow. NBC News learning her testimony has also at least temporarily been put on hold.
I'm joined by former Watergate special prosecutor Nick Ackerman and Maya Harris, attorney and former adviser to Hillary Clinton.
Nick, there are some who see you as skeptical of the White House position on these issues, but I think it is fair to say lawfully that there can be legitimate claims to executive privilege, especially before the Congress as opposed to Mueller. Do you see anything wrong with how this is going down?
NICK ACKERMAN, FORMER WATERGATE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR: Well, I see a couple things. First of all executive privilege does not apply to Donald Trump until January 20th, 2017 when he was sworn in as President. There's no such thing as President-elect privilege. It's like saying there is an attorney-client privilege, when somebody's in law school and they are not an attorney. It just doesn't make sense.
There's lots of material to question Steve Bannon on prior to January 20th. That's the time period for example when Michael Flynn spoke to the Russian ambassador and lied to the FBI by sanctions. So, yes, I'm extremely skeptical here. To me it all looks like a cover-up.
MELBER: And Maya, you know, part of this that's important is that politics. People think of Devin Nunes and some of the house Republicans as having backed up President Trump on Russia, but now we are in a type of fight where according to foreign policy magazine, it's Donald Trump himself intervening and deciding he wants Bannon silenced, which is now a subpoena level fight with House Republicans, which I think gives some credence to what we call the Nick Ackerman theory that there is more to this, otherwise, why are these groups that we are playing deepens together on Russia suddenly in longer heads.
Add to that, another piece of sound that is brand-new tonight. I doubt anyone went home and seen this yet. This is a man that you rarely see on camera, Ty Cobb, the White House lawyer for the President. He represents the President's criminal issues and the Russia probe, not just sort of the broader question of legality, talking about the potential testimony by, guess who? Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The President's very eager to sit down and explain whatever is responsive to the questions that --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very eager?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very eager. To explain to the special counsel, whatever responses are required.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Maya, is the President very eager to testify in that Mueller hot seat? And your view of the issues with the house Republicans now fighting with the White House.
MAYA HARRIS, FORMER SENIOR POLICY ADVISER TO HILLARY CLINTON: Well, he is clearly very eager to get this investigation over with. I don't know that I would say he's eager to sit down with Bob Mueller.
And there was an interesting other part of that interview where they talked about whether or not the lawyer Ty Cobb might be afraid of a perjury trap being set for Donald Trump if he does in fact sit down with Bob Mueller. And of course, given the chronic habitual lying that this President does, over 2,000 lies his first year in office, I think the perjury trap he might set is one he'll set for himself. But I don't think this sense without Donald Trump actually sitting down for an interview either voluntarily or by subpoena with Bob Mueller.
But your question about the Congress, you know, leave it to Steve Bannon to be the person to actually unite the congressional committee, Republicans and Democrats, to get a subpoena slapped on him to get him to talk. And you know, I think it's because of his assertion of a privilege that goes well beyond the scope of what's permissible. I mean, he was reportedly trying to assert the privilege related to things during the campaign during the transition, potentially after he has left the White House and clearly the executive privilege doesn't extend that far.
MELBER: So you are sort of saying, if you are unpopular enough, you can unite anyone?
HARRIS: It looks like that's what happened in the Congress this week.
MELBER: Nick, there is so many stories going. This is another one I wanted to get to. One of the big things that has emerged about Bob Mueller legally is that he is assertive. So there was talk before he got going on the Russia probe, that yes, Paul Manafort and others had maybe hidden their foreign lobbying, and maybe that shady, there is rarely prosecuted which is technically true. And Bob Mueller came out and push forward and prosecuted people for hiding foreign lobbying under this rule that has now got more attention to foreign agents registration act.
And if you care about good governments, forget the politics. That could be a positive thing. And now we are seeing some results from this. This also brand-new story, I want to read to you, the Mueller effect has these filings soaring in the shadow of the Manafort and Flynn probes and that date firm who work from Trump's campaign attracting the interest of Mueller's investigators recently filed paper work showing it has helped spread negative information about Qatar. One of hundreds of new fillings by these lobbyists since Mueller charge two Trump's aides with, of course, their failure to expose their lobbying for foreign countries.
Nick, it's a mouthful. It doesn't get enough attention and yet it's important because I wonder if you think Bob Mueller being tough on lobbyists is actually forcing things in Washington, otherwise it wouldn't even be happening.
ACKERMAN: Yes, it is clearly a good thing. What the whole purpose of the criminal law is to act as a deterrent to conduct that is illegal and criminal. And here, I mean, obviously the deterrent effect of this indictment has had some effect. But keep in mind, the violations of this act requiring registration is just one small part of a multimillion dollar scam to cheat the government out of millions of dollars of taxes and to launder money through Russia, Cypress and into the United States.
MELBER: Nick Ackerman and Maya Harris on all of these big Russian developments. Thank you so much.
Up next, another one we haven't gotten to yet, the FBI now probing whether the national rifle association could have taken money Kremlin bankers to help Trump. The reporter who broke the story, he is on "the Beat."
Plus, we are hours away from the shutdown as the House Democrat who just sent a letter to Trump with new demands, he will join me live.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Welcome back to THE BEAT. Here's one you can't make up. New reports the FBI investigating whether Russian money went to the NRA to help Trump. This is a McClatchy story, two people familiar now with the Mueller investigation tell McClatchy the NRA spent $30 million to back trump, that's OK, triple the amount spent though on Romney's 2012 campaign. And the reporting draws another Russian player out of the shadows. This man you see on your screen, Alexander Torshin, he was a Russian Senator, a powerful member of Putin's party. Hus official title, Deputy Governor of a Central Bank and he's been described as a "godfather" in the "Russian mob" which has been implicated in international money laundering. Here's what's going on though in the U.S. This person met with Donald Trump, Jr. in Kentucky at the NRA's 2016 convention. You can see his father's speech there to what was a packed house.
In December, there was another piece to this puzzle because the New York Times reported an e-mail that was sent to Jeff Sessions and a key Trump advisor Rick Dearborn -- excuse me -- that said that Russia would attempt to use the NRA's annual convention to make first contact. Now let's be very clear. If a foreign government or espionage operation did weaponize the NRA to funnel money to the Trump campaign, that is not just a scandal in that it sounds terrible, that is a federal felony. That's what's under investigation, not proven. The connecting of the dots on the money trail, well, that's been happening reportedly by Mueller and now with reporters tracing hi his tracks. I'm joined by one of those reporters. Peter Stone broke this story and has the story everyone's talking about. Peter, why is this important and does it look to you like it is in scandal territory or there are potential federal crimes here?
PETER STONE, REPORTER, MCCLATCHY: Well, it's definitely an important story because part of Mueller's mission from the beginning has been looking at how there might have been Russian moneys funneled into the U.S. This predated Mueller's efforts, in fact, the FBI was looking at it prior to his coming in. And we know about the ads on Facebook, we know about other things that the Russians did.
MELBER: Talk to me about the NRA, though.
STONE: OK, well, it's important because the NRA was the leading outside spender on behalf of Trump in 2016. They spent at least $30 million directly on his campaign. We have sources who have told us that they spent over what they officially reported, which is legal, they can spend more on things like field operations, they're known for having an incredibly great get out the vote operation. We know that Torshin has had ties to the NRA that have grown in the last few years. He was a lifetime member of the NRA, he hosted a big delegation of top NRA folks in Moscow in December of 2015, that's the same month that Michael Flynn went over there, and some of those people were major NRA fund-raisers who are over there. It's important that they're trying to dig into whether or not Torshin actually funneled money through the NRA to help the Trump campaign. They must have some evidence because they have started looking into this. We don't know how much they have at this stage, though.
MELBER: The NRA, unlike say, some of the defenses of the Trump campaign is a highly sophisticated and experienced political operation. When I worked on Capitol Hill, when I worked in the Senate, they were considered one of the most effective sophisticated operations period, whether you agree with them or not. So that's different than folks who took meetings and then later said we didn't know. That was a bad idea. What does your reporting suggest about the NRA, their knowledge of anything that was potentially illicit or how they'd explain this?
STONE: Well, the NRA hasn't commented publicly. They didn't comment us. we ask them for a comment. They didn't say anything. We've heard their comment may be coming, but we haven't seen anything yet. We don't know how --
MELBER: Is that weird -- is that weird on its face, Peter? It would seem to me they might want to knock this down.
STONE: Well, it would seem to us too that they would want to you know, put a lid on this as soon as they could. But it's taken over a day and a half and we haven't gotten a comment from them yet. We've asked even today again, would you give us a comment on this. So we don't know quite what's going on, whether there will be something coming soon. But we think --
MELBER: And the last thing I got to ask you, the last thing is, I would never, of course, ask you to try to dig into who your sources are, but can you shed any light on how and why you would know this? Take skeptics in our audience who say, well, is this just someone trying to give the NRA hard time? How are you at least thinking that your sources are credible or the know this?
STONE: Well, we know that our sources, the two people who talked to us have been talking to us about various parts of the investigation on and off for months, and they have proven to be correct, they have good information and we believe they're trustworthy. We wouldn't have gone with it if we didn't have experience with them.
MELBER: Peter Stone, you are a serious Reporter with serious sources and you have a serious story on your hands so thanks for telling us about it tonight.
STONE: Absolutely. It's a pleasure. Thanks.
MELBER: I appreciate it. Coming up, Steve Bannon getting ready for Bob Mueller's questions. What does that mean to offer the case against Paul Manafort who Bannon famously accuse of treasonous behavior? My exclusive with a woman who worked with Manafort and says he has no moral compass. That's next. Also, later this hour, we are tracking brand-new developments. There's now a key Republican who is telling the freedom caucus to fold on the shutdown.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Steve Bannon is ready to talk, speaking with Special Counsel Mueller's agents. That may not be good news for Paul Manafort. Bannon called him treasonous and unpatriotic for the Trump Tower meeting. And when the heat goes up, a lot of people obviously turn on each other. The question though is whether the nature of Paul Manafort's exposure makes him more vulnerable if people are turning on him. It's not just Bannon's opinion about treason that's important. Bannon also made a key allegation in that book about money laundering, telling Michael Wolff, this is all about money laundering and Mueller's path to expletive, Trump goes right through Manafort and others. And that's not the only one. There are other people who don't have any legal exposure, meaning they're not really caught up in this probe, who also question Manafort's approach to business.
K. Riva Levinson got her start working for Manafort which she documented in her book Choosing the Hero, My Improbable Journey and the Rise of Africa's First Woman President. She describes a boss who left her traumatized, depressed, almost in mourning. She alleges quite bluntly that he lacks a moral compass, was a control freak, and would do anything to win at all cost and didn't care about collateral damage. And when that criticism of Manafort caused waves when he was published in the Washington Post, it was actually an excerpt from her deeper assessment that she makes in that book I mentioned. Riva joins me for her first exclusive T.V. interview since that excerpt made waves. And my first question, why does she think Manafort has no moral compass?
K. RIVA LEVINSON, PRESIDENT AND CEO, KRL INTERNATIONAL: I wrote that because I felt when I worked for Paul, I worked for Paul for ten years, that he was driven by power and money and the need to be relevant. And the projects that came in, it didn't matter what they were as long as they provided those three points to him. And there I was, I was 24 years old, working at a bipartisan lobbying firm, and I was Paul Manafort's third world traveler of choice.
MELBER: And you're right here, that you had mercenary African adventure that left you so dispirited that you felt like you wanted to cleanse your soul and you went on to do observation work in Nigeria -- excuse me -- Nicaragua's elections and other places. And so walk us through. When you say, they were OK, mercenaries are hired guns. There's was a lot of that in Washington. Was Paul Manafort the average mercenary, or did you see something that led you to this I think deeper critique that you saw a moral problem?
LEVINSON: So, again, think about the time, Ari, the whole world was changing and the Soviet Union was just about to collapse, the Berlin wall was coming down, all of these -- all of these different governments were petitioning -- they were petitioning to be with the U.S. and Paul Manafort had this unique ability to come in and to convince whoever it was that he could do something you talk about. Mogadishu, it is my most dispirited moment in choosing the hero. He sends me there in 1989 to sign a contract with the dictator named Siad Barre. The rebels are 60 miles out, they're closing into the city, all of the airplanes that were commercial, they leave, I'm stuck there. I'm navigating my way out. A pointless mission, and even if we were hired, the guy was done, the rebels were 60 miles out. And that was the type of mission he sent me on.
MELBER: Let me read another part where you describe this period, you say, looking at Paul Manafort when you started this job, over six feet tall with large brown eyes, a stocky build, and dark features. Manafort is not good looking precisely but he does have a commanding presence that compels you to notice him when he walks in the room. He's one of those individuals who can cut through the noise, unerringly get to the heart of the problem and even hit on a solution. Do you think that that ability you describe was also his undoing? He thought he was always one step ahead and here he is at the end of his life, past most people's retirement age and finds himself under indictment for things that happened mostly years ago?
LEVINSON: So, what I'm going to say is I nailed it, that description, don't you think? And what I also wanted to say is I started writing my memoir a decade ago. So those excerpts that you read were they're well before anything happened. I mean, Donald Trump was in Trump Tower. We never thought he would be where he is. So that's what I would say. But what I -- but also say and directly to your point is, I think that Paul is all of those things, but Paul didn't feel like he had to play by the rules, in an industry where you usually got away with it.
MELBER: Right.
LEVINSON: And this time, he didn't get away with it.
MELBER: Knowing what you know about Mr. Manafort, what does it tell you that he took on such a big job as presidential campaign chair for Donald Trump working completely for free and why do you think he would go into a meeting, given how experienced as he was, unlike say, Donald Trump Jr., where the written offer on the table, foreign election assistance would at least raise a question of legal criminal culpability in that Tower Meeting?
LEVINSON: Yes, do you know I can speak to the former, but I can't speak to the latter. The former being I remember what I said about Paul. I thought he was driven by power, money, and relevance and this was the ultimate relevancy to Paul. It was his return to Washington, D.C. after being in exile in Ukraine for about 10 to 15 years. And I think that's what drove him to that. But what he didn't anticipate and he should have, he's smarter than that, that his background would be deeply scrutinized. Because you could argue that none of these issues, the Mueller investigation would have come up if he didn't put himself in that level of spotlight. So that's just a fundamental error on his part.
MELBER: Riva Levinson, thanks for spending some time with us on THE BEAT.
LEVINSON: Yes, it's my pleasure, Ari. Thanks for inviting me.
MELBER: And we turn to breaking news in this unfolding fight over the government shutdown. Minutes ago here, I just got this in the newsroom. There's a right-wing faction, you know them as the House Freedom Caucus apparently folding. They're saying now they would support this short-term deal, which means they're supporting this looming House vote tonight. The bill of course, very much still in doubt in the Senate, major questions. We're going to fit in a break, and then I'm going to speak to a House Democrat in the middle of this whole showdown, that's next.
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MELBER: Breaking news on this potential government shutdown right now. 30 hours away is the deadline but moments ago, a critical right-wing faction, the House Freedom Caucus apparently folding. Its leaders saying, they will support what has been debated all day here, the short-term deal that would keep the lights on. This is the key bill that the House will vote on within minutes, that would be the mechanism to avoid tomorrow's shutdown. A Democrat voting on that bill, well, Congressman Peter Welch joins me now right from the middle of the fight. Congressman, did you just hear about this news from the Freedom Caucus? Does this make a shutdown less likely?
REP. PETER WELCH (D), VERMONT: It does if they have the votes and can pass this continuing resolution we won't have a shutdown. And that's good news. But there's a lot of bad news here. This is -- we're four months into the budget here. This is the fourth continuing resolution. So this is a killer for the Pentagon trying to make plans, for the Agriculture Department making plans. And a lot of us who are opposed to this think continuing resolution believed that we should be voting on a full year budget. I mean, think about it if you were in Burlington, Vermont and you said 30 days to the Fire Department, and they -- could they buy a piece of equipment or could the Police Department hire somebody? So this is really unraveling the stability that our military needs, that our agriculture needs and everyone needs. So short-term C.R.'s --
MELBER: And Congressman -- no, I just want to ask you also, within the past 20 minutes the President tweeted that he supports this C.R., this bill to fund the government. This morning, the President tweeted against the health care money that's in this bill. So his late in the day tweet seems to contradict his morning tweet. Your response?
WELCH: You know, well, the President is sitting in the Oval Office and he's got a bunch of hand grenades in his desk, and he's pulling the pin, rolling it down to Pennsylvania and they land in the Republican Conference. And that's the latest explosion we've had two today. The fact is, that number one we should have a budget, a full year budget. It's the only way you can have stability. And, in fact, the Pentagon, among others, would be able to plan if they had that and that's been abdicated by the President and by speaker Ryan. There's a second issue here that's very alarming. What Speaker Ryan has done is made a tactical decision that the path to 2018 is through the Freedom Caucus.
That means that he's given the keys to the car to the most extreme wing of his party who in refusing to negotiate with the Democrats, who are actually quite willing to agree on common sense and bipartisan things. For instance, we should be providing funding to first responders in the opioid crisis, both sides agree. We should be stabilizing pensions for a lot of those folks in the (INAUDIBLE) who got hammered (INAUDIBLE) for Trump, and we certainly should have DACA, which even the President said he's for. So none of these things are going to be addressed in this continuing resolution kicking the can down the road, abdicating our responsibility to govern and to pass a budget.
MELBER: Congressman, I want to get more of your thoughts if you are in the thick of it. Will you stay with me? I want to bring in Jamal Simmons as well.
WELCH: I will.
MELBER: All right, Congressman, please hang with me. Democratic Strategist Jamal Simmons who knows a thing or two about these fights. The Freedom Caucus is not just a Trump era thing. They have bedeviled many of Republican leaders. I want to point out that Mark Meadows here is part of the leadership reportedly here within the last few minutes saying they will support the short-term resolution which you just heard the Congressman welcome at least as a sliver of incremental good news. But I would be remiss if I didn't get your response Jamal to Mark Meadows this morning saying, the American people are fed up with short-term answers after another. I'm fed up with it. It's critically important we make decisions and run the government like you'd run your household or business. Long- term planning makes for good solutions. What accounts for the difference?
JAMAL SIMMONS, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, THE BEAT D.C: Well, we're going to -- it's yet to see what accounts for the difference. Maybe Republicans realized they are in charge of the entire government. They have the majority in the House, they have the majority the Senate, they have the White House. The idea that Democrats are going to be the ones -- would be the ones that would face some negative repercussion from a government shutdown is farcical. So the House -- Republicans I think have finally realize that maybe they've got to do their job and actually keep the government funded. We'll see what happens from the Senate though.
MELBER: My question to you Jamal and then to the Congressman, is your view then that in a sense the key part of the Republican caucus just blinked?
SIMMONS: It does certainly appear that way. I think you know, one thing we've learned in this Manafort versus Trump fight is that Donald Trump really does have the biggest bat in the Republican Party. So maybe some of these guys are feeling a little nervous about going against the Republican leadership.
MELBER: Congressman?
WELCH: They did blink but they didn't make progress. And you know, a shutdown, we're all losers on that. The press could assess the blame game but America loses, that's the bottom line. And we lose if we don't have a budget. And the Republicans have the majority and they have to make a decision. And this is an America first kind of decision for Paul Ryan. If he's going to continue to give the keys to the car to the Freedom Caucus, we're never going to get anywhere. We'll go down this blind alley. We need a budget. And it's disgraceful that we're leaving the military hanging, they can't plan, they can't execute. It's disgraceful that we're not allowing our domestic departments to make decisions on some kind of long term planning. So this is a moment where the lights will stay on, and that's good. No Democrats wants a shutdown but we've got a duty to govern, we've got a duty to pass a budget.
MELBER: Right. And --
SIMMONS: Ari, it's also disgraceful -- it's also disgraceful if we don't have the DACA student or the DACA people in the United States don't have certainty about their status in this country.
WELCH: Absolutely.
MELBER: I think you both raise important points that go beyond a short- term funding solution and beyond tweets that contradict or self-detonate within hours. Congressman Peter Welch, thank you for joining us from the belly of the beast there on this busy night. Good luck on the vote. Jamal Simmons, thank you. THE BEAT will be right back.
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MELBER: That does it for me, "HARDBALL" with Chris Matthews is up next.
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: White House rumble. Let's play HARDBALL.
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