McConnell-Schumer clash over trial. TRANSCRIPT: 12/19/19, Hardball w/ Chris Matthews.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: That does it for me. I`ll see you back here on
THE BEAT, 6:00 P.M. tomorrow. HARDBALL with Chris Matthews is up next.
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: The trial on Donald Trump. Let`s play
Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews back in Washington.
Here`s where we are right now on the upcoming trial of President Trump in
the U.S. Senate. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer today held a meeting
with his Republican counterpart, Mitch McConnell, to discuss how
impeachment will proceed in the Senate, which will hold the president`s
trial, of course.
According to a statement from Senator Schumer`s office, the senator, quote,
made clear to McConnell that the witnesses and documents are necessary to
ensure a fair trial in the Senate. So he wants witnesses, he wants
documents to make it fair. And late today, Senator McConnell said the two
sides were at an impasse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): We remain at an impasse because my friend,
the Democratic leader, continues to demand a new and different set of rules
for President Trump.
My colleague wants a special pre-trial guarantee of certain witnesses whom
the House Democrats themselves did not bother to pursue as they assemble
I`m not sure what leverage there is in refraining to sending us something
we do not want. We`ll see whether House Democrats ever want to work up the
courage to actually take their accusations to trial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, McConnell`s position is that the Senate will or should
decide on witnesses during the course of the trial itself. That would, of
course under, parliamentary rules, leave it up to his majority of 53
Republicans to decide during the course of the Senate trial whether or not
to have witnesses at all, whether or to demand documents at all. It will
all be up to Mitch McConnell if he gets it his way.
Well, this comes after the U.S. House of Representatives last night
rendered, of course, the gravest constitutional check on any president a
president can face with two historic votes, they passed articles of
impeachment against Donald Trump. And the record now shows and history
will always remember that this president was the third chief of executive
to ever earn this rare dishonor.
Now, in the wake of that vote yesterday, House Democrats are weighing
whether they would delay sending that impeachment resolution over to the
Senate citing the need for a fair trial over there. At the very least,
Nancy Pelosi made clear last night that she won`t name impeachment managers
to make the case against Trump who will serve as prosecutors, of course, in
the trial until she knows how the Senate intends to conduct itself.
Here she is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): We cannot name managers until we see what the
process is on the Senate side.
So far we haven`t seen anything that looks fair to us, so hopefully it will
be fair and when we see what that is for the managers.
REPORTER: So you would withhold – you would wait to send the articles
until you understand what the Senate is going to do?
PELOSI: We`ll make the decision as a group, as we always have, as we go
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, Democrats are considering to delay because McConnell
effectively promised last week that the Senate would allow the president
and his lawyers, the defendants in this case, to set the terms of his own
trial. Here he goes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCONNELL: And everything I do during this, I am coordinating with White
House Counsel. There will be no difference between the president`s
position and our position.
Exactly how we go forward, I`m going to coordinate with the president`s
lawyers, total coordination with the White House Counsel`s Office.
Again, I`m going to take my cues from the president`s lawyers. The
president`s counsel may or may not decide they want to have witnesses.
There is no chance the president is going to be removed from office.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Step back and you realize that there is a juror, a member of the
hundred-person jury in the U.S. Senate saying, I`m going to take my orders
from the defendant and his lawyers. Well, that`s a hell of a trial.
Anyway, in dueling remarks earlier today, McConnell and Pelosi, the
speaker, engaged in a rhetorical showdown over the next steps in Trump`s
impeachment. McConnell said any delay reflects badly on the Democrats`
case. Well, Pelosi held firm.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCONNELL: Speaker Pelosi suggested that House Democrats may be too
afraid, too afraid to even transmit their shoddy work product to the
Senate. Mrs. President, it looks like the prosecutors are getting cold
PELOSI: We would hope there would be a fair process just as we hope that
they would honor the Constitution.
Our founders, when they wrote the Constitution, they suspected that there
could be a rogue president. I don`t think they suspected that we`d have a
rogue president and a rogue leader in the Senate at the same time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: I`m joined right now by Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell, of
course, of California, a member of the House Intelligence Committee and
also the Judiciary Committee. Congressman, thank you for being on all the
time when we needed you. And you`re a great narrator of what`s going on.
So help me out here. The United States Constitution under Article I gives
all the power over the trial of a president in an impeachment matter to the
Senate. So how does the speaker set the terms which is what`s going on
REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): Yes. The Speaker, like any prosecutor, doesn`t
want to walk into a courtroom where the foreperson of the jury is working
with the defendant. She wants to make sure that it`s going to be a fair
trial. And after all, don`t we owe that to the courageous witnesses who
came forward and risked their careers, their livelihood and even their
lives to tell the truth about what happened, and don`t we owe that to the
president who deserves a fair trial, but more importantly, the American
people, 70 percent of whom said earlier this week that they want the
president to send his witnesses forward, which means that they want Mitch
McConnell to have a trial that includes witnesses.
MATTHEWS: Well, Congressman, you know that even if you ask most
Republicans in the country who are down the line for Trump, they want a
fair trial too. At least they say that to pollsters. So the principle
she`s after is clearly established and clearly admirable.
The question is how many days can she hold out? The House did not name
managers before you recessed for the year. You can`t do it again
apparently according to the rules until the Tuesday after new year`s, which
is the 7th, okay. So the House comes back and you`ve named managers. If
you don`t name managers, how long can you put it off and say – because
Mitch McConnell looks like he`s not giving in right now.
He says, I`m going to do what I`m going to do, my same old way, I`ll decide
somewhere during the trial itself if we`re going to have witnesses or not,
and, of course, that would leave his 53 Republicans on his side of the
aisle in complete charge in probably going along with him as the foreman of
the jury, as you`ve just said, and they won`t have any witnesses, and it
will be too late to stop. So how do we get past this impasse?
Pelosi says we`re not sending the managers over to the Senate. He`s
saying, live with it, we`re not going to have any witnesses in this trial,
SWALWELL: And, you know, Chris, it hasn`t even been 24 hours since the
president has been twice impeached by the Congress. However, I think the
speaker is trying to get assurances from the majority leader and she`s
hoping that the Mitch McConnell of 1999 during the Clinton impeachment
trial who said that trials have witnesses is going to be the Mitch
McConnell of this impeachment trial. And I don`t think it`s unreasonable
to ask that, and I don`t think that means it`s going to be a delay that
goes on and on, but she should have assurances that the American people and
the president will have witnesses at this trial.
MATTHEWS: Yes, I don`t know. I don`t know. I`m thinking of something to
say but I`m not going to say it about frogs and kisses. But let me just
tell you, nothing is going to change McConnell, nothing.
Anyway, the president is now fundraising off this impeachment –
SWALWELL: Well, McConnell cares about McConnell, Chris. And when 70
percent of Americans are saying the president should send witnesses, I
don`t think Mitch McConnell cares about the president at all. I think he
cares about holding his majority and being re-elected. And if Kentuckians
and every day Americans want to hear from these individuals about the
president`s abuse of power, I think that`s going to mean something.
MATTHEWS: Well, here he is. It might be disgusting to you and me, but
here he is, the president is now fund-raising off his impeachment. A Trump
campaign email to supporters today, today, the day after he`s been
impeached on two articles contains the subject line make, them pay and
refers to Democrats who voted against the president last night, calls them
traitors. So anybody who votes against the president in an impeachment
matter in a due process of Congress is a traitor to him.
And he`s now the – what do you make of that, Congressman? He now refers
to himself implicitly as the republic. If you vote against him, you vote
against the country.
SWALWELL: And that`s exactly why he was also impeached on the second
article for obstructing Congress that he believes that he has the same
Powers as Vladimir Putin or Kim Jong-un, two dictators right now. He
doesn`t believe he has to answer to anyone else.
But, Chris, he also cannot imagine why anyone would do the right thing even
if it meant risking their job. He has never surrounded himself around
courage like that. He`s never shown courage like that. And it is quite, I
would say, dizzying and bewildering to him because it`s something he
doesn`t recognize in himself or anyone that he knows.
MATTHEWS: You know, he did say something, which is objectively totally
dishonest. He said, you people, Democrats, are trying to get witnesses in
the Senate you never called yourself. When everybody knows people on your
side of the aisle, the Democrats say, we wanted John Bolton, we wanted Mick
Mulvaney, the people you most wanted to testify in the Senate, you tried
like hell to get through subpoena in the House side during the impeachment
SWALWELL: Chris, if those witnesses could have helped the president, he
would have sent them to us. And the best evidence that the president does
not care about executive privilege, he`s no constitutional scholar who`s
being principled in this even if it means he`s impeached. He sent the call
record because he thought the call record was perfect. If he believed that
John Bolton and Mick Mulvaney violated executive privilege, he would have
applied the same principle to the call record. The call record was not
perfect. He realized he`d gotten caught and that`s why he put the brakes
on anyone else coming forward.
MATTHEWS: My old rule, if it`s better than it looks, they`ll show you. He
doesn`t want to show you. Thank you, Congressman. It`s great to have you
on. Have a Merry Christmas and a happy holidays, U.S. Congressman Eric
Swalwell of California.
SWALWELL: You too. Merry Christmas. Thanks, Chris.
MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, sir.
Senator Schumer told NBC News earlier today that he`s onboard with Speaker
Pelosi if she decides to delay in sending those articles of impeachment to
the Senate. He said, if the speaker wants to hold onto them, it`s fine
with us. And he blasted Mitch McConnell on the Senate floor for daring to
block witnesses with knowledge of the president`s conduct from even
testifying in the trial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Is the president`s case so weak that none of
the president`s men can defend him under oath. If the House case is so
weak, why is Leader McConnell so afraid of witnesses and documents?
I have yet to hear one good argument why less evidence is better than more
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: I`m joined right now by Senator Chris Coons of Delaware. Thank
you, Senator, for joining us.
What do you make of this back and forth tonight between the speaker of the
House and the Senate majority leader over whether there will be a Senate
trial even of the president? It seems like the Senate Republican leader is
saying, well, we really don`t want the articles. This is a strange
conversation so far.
SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): Well, Chris, it`s been a striking week here in
the Senate. Obviously, the House has impeached President Trump on two
articles. We`ve also passed a whole bunch of other bills that are I think
well worth talking about, but we are leaving for the holiday break without
clarity about when the impeachment articles will come over and when the
Senate trial will begin.
Majority Leader McConnell, Senator Schumer need to negotiate what are going
to be the rules around evidence and witnesses. And it`s my hope that
they`ll get that done before we return on January 6th.
MATTHEWS: But Mitch McConnell`s position is you don`t negotiate any of
that until the trial begins. You don`t even talk about witnesses until
you`ve gotten the trial under way.
COONS: Well, I think this is Majority Leader McConnell`s effort to block
witnesses and block evidence. Frankly, one of the striking things to me
last night was that after President Trump was impeached, Vladimir Putin
gave remarks in Moscow that, frankly, very closely followed President
Trump`s denunciation of the whole impeachment process. It should concern
my Republican colleagues that their talking points and Putin seem to be so
President Trump blocked any presentation of real evidence in his defense in
the House. That`s the grounds for the second article, the obstruction of
Congress, which prevents the American people from gauging whether the
president has a defense or not. If he believes he`s innocent, Republicans
should want him to have evidence and witnesses presented in the Senate.
MATTHEWS: By the way, and the Putin thing, do you think Putin is a member
of Trump`s party or Trump is a member of Putin`s party? I mean, really,
this is weird. You brought it up. it`s weird to have a foreign leader,
especially an adversarial leader, talking of presidents being impeached and
trying to defend the president against his impeachment.
COONS: It is really striking, Chris, that we`ve got this long history now
over several years of President Trump choosing to believe Putin over his
own Intelligence Community or his own security advisers and President Putin
coming to Trump`s defense on this sensitive, political matter.
One positive note from this week, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee,
on a very strong bipartisan vote, passed the defending against Kremlin –
Defending America`s security against Kremlin attacks or DASKA Bill, which
would impose far tougher sanctions on Russia.
The challenge is that we believe neither Majority Leader McConnell nor
President Trump will support it even though there were seven Republicans
who voted for it. We`re clear that Russia is our adversary. I wish
President Trump were as clear.
MATTHEWS: Last question, I want to give you some time on this. I watched
and you probably watched it as much as you could yesterday. I watched it
all day, listened all day, heard from all, there were many, many, dozens
and dozens of Republican members of the House and not one spoke up for the
president`s character. Not one said the president was a good man, an
honest man, someone who wouldn`t do things like this, who is patriotic.
Did that surprise you that lack of any moral support for this president by
people who say they are politically aligned with him but not morally in bed
with him at all, they don`t seem to really like his morality?
COONS: Chris, that is really noteworthy that his defenders really don`t
defend him. They attack the process. They make a lot of different attacks
so they didn`t seem to have a coordinated message or theme other than to
attack and denigrate Chairman Schiff, who I think did an excellent job
leading the House Intelligence Committee process or Chairman Nadler or
Chris, one last thing, an important development this week, the fifth
circuit case, which means that the Republican-led litigation against the
Affordable Care Act continues, and 130 million Americans are at risk of
losing their protections against pre-existing conditions, discrimination,
all of this going on in the Capitol matters deeply, but that matters to
more than a hundred million Americans.
MATTHEWS: What a good fight to make. I hope they can save ACA. Thank you
so much Senator Chris Coons of Delaware.
COONS: Thank you, Chris.
MATTHEWS: Merry Christmas, Sir.
COONS: Merry Christmas.
MATTHEWS: Coming up, the stain on Trump`s presidency. Years ago, he
called impeachment an absolute embarrassment. Well, now it`s happened to
him and he wants revenge.
Plus, in his first public appearance as an impeached president, which is
what he is, Trump goes off the rails in Michigan attacking deceased
Congressman John Dingell, a beloved figure in that state and then attacking
his widow as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: He calls me up, it`s the nicest thing that`s
ever happened, thank you so much. John would be so thrilled. He`s looking
down he`d be so – thank you so much, sir. I said that`s okay, don`t worry
about it. He was looking up, by the way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: How low do you go?
We`ve got much more to get to tonight. Stay with us.
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
Many questions remain, of course, about the path ahead for a Senate
impeachment trial. But one thing is no longer in question.
President now Trump – well, President Trump is now and will forever be an
impeached president. That`s in the record books forever.
President Trump`s own actions led us to this point, of course, his decision
to pressure a foreign government to investigate his political rival for his
own personal benefit – well, we know that – while holding up military aid
His actions are preserved, by the way, in that July 25 phone call with
Ukrainian President Zelensky, when he stated, “I would like you to do us a
As “The New York Times” editorial board writes: “By any reasonable measure,
Mr. Trump`s own conduct in office clears the bar for impeachment set by the
founders. By the sworn testimony about his actions and by his own public
statements calling on China and Ukraine to investigate the Bidens, he has
shown not only that he tried to cheat to win the 2020 election, but that he
has continued to do so” – well, continued to do so.
The Republicans in Congress spoke less in defense of the president`s
actions, and more in complaining about the process. Do you notice?
Here they go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): The truth is, in the 243 years of this republic,
there has never been a single-party fraudulent impeachment process like the
one being used today.
REP. DEBBIE LESKO (R-AZ): I believe this is the most unfair, politically
biased, rigged process that I have seen in my entire life.
REP. JIM BAIRD (R-IN): This has been a secretive, misdirected process from
the very beginning. And the American people see right through it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: For more, I`m joined by Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for
“USA Today,” and Ben Rhodes, former deputy national security adviser to
He`s always going to be impeached.
SUSAN PAGE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, “USA TODAY”: It`s going to be in the
first paragraph of any account of his presidency.
His unexpected election made him historic. His historic impeachment did
MATTHEWS: So, he goes down in history books, Ben, in two ways, 45th
president, fourth – or third impeached.
BEN RHODES, FORMER U.S. DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Yes, that`s
But I think it`s important how much he earned this impeachment. You will
remember, Nancy Pelosi was very reluctant to pursue impeachment. She was
bucking some in her party throughout the Mueller investigation, throughout
the revelation that Trump was Individual 1 and a potential felony in the
Southern District with payments to Stormy Daniels.
It was only when this shocking case emerged of him pressuring a foreign
government to investigate a political opponent, that`s what forced Pelosi`s
hand. And, frankly, the evidence was open and shut and clear for all to
So, not only was he impeached, but this was about as clear-cut a fact case
as you could get and one that really did, I think, compel the Democrats to
follow their constitutional duty.
MATTHEWS: Well, here`s Donald Trump back in 2014, not a million years ago,
talking to FOX News about his Obama impeachment fantasy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Do you think Obama seriously
want to be impeached and go through what Bill Clinton did?
QUESTION: No. No.
TRUMP: He would be a mess. He would be thinking about nothing but. It
would be a horror show for him. It would be an absolute embarrassment. It
would go down on his record permanently.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, you know, you never see him in those “FOX & Friends”
interviews, because he`s in his bubble bath. He is. He`s in a bubble bath
But every morning he gets up now for the rest of his life, especially the
next couple of weeks, where you don`t know what he`s going to do, he wakes
up, and the first thing he remembers is, I`m president, and I have been
My question to you is, how wild will he get to get reelected, which is the
only way he can expunge it in his heart, is to get reelected by the
PAGE: Well, I…
MATTHEWS: Will he do anything?
PAGE: Well, I think it`s pretty clear that this – that what he was
describing as the effect on President Obama is the effect it`s had on him,
because you see that in his fury on Twitter, the number of tweets he sends
out and their increasing anger, the two-hour campaign rally…
MATTHEWS: Last night.
PAGE: … that we saw last night, and some of the language he used in
So this has definitely consumed him. So, the contrast is so clear with the
Clinton impeachment, which I covered, where Clinton was pretty disciplined
about pretending that it was not consuming him, although we know now that,
behind the scenes, it was front and center on his mind.
There`s been no attempt really by President Trump to pretend that this is
not the first thing he`s thinking about, and the thing he is most concerned
about, and the thing that is consuming him.
And, of course, what is the best way for him to counter being impeached?
It is being reelected.
MATTHEWS: Ben, how far will he go? I really think is a big question,
because we have seen he`s ruthless. But maybe we haven`t seen the real
ruthless Trump yet, the one who will say, I want Michigan. I will get it
at any cost. I want Pennsylvania. I will get it at any cost.
He`s already going to Russia for help. He`s gone to Ukraine. Well, he
hasn`t gone to Ukraine, has he? Yes, he has. He`s gone to Ukraine for
help. That`s what we`re talking about.
This guy will go anywhere in the world to get some dirt.
RHODES: Yes. No, this is what worries me, Chris.
I mean, we know, from our intelligence community, unanimous view, that, in
2016, Russia interfered to help him. And we also know that there were
Trump contacts and associates who were trying to work with Russia in that
We know he`s already asked both China and Ukraine to help him in this
election. He will go to any length. And we also know that there are
things that we don`t have information about, like what is he talking to
Vladimir Putin about? What other calls have been put in this secret server
in the White House? What lengths will he go?
Because, clearly, he does not feel constrained. It does not feel like
Donald Trump learns from these episodes and decides to restrain himself.
RHODES: And part of what is so concerning in this impeachment process is,
the Republican Party has shown that they will go to any lengths to defend
anything Donald Trump does.
They didn`t even say that the conduct was troubling, but it didn`t rise to
impeachment. They just attack the process, attack the process, defend
Trump. And that sends a message that, if he is reelected, he can count on
the uniform support of a major political party, which makes it very
difficult to enforce accountability in our system.
So I think this election really comes down to whether we think we live in a
democracy in which the rules of accountability should apply to a president,
or whether we`re OK with a president who will do anything, cheat, break any
rule to try to get elected, knowing that he has the full support of his
Well, I asked Senator Coons this. I`m going to ask you. Is Trump in
Putin`s party or is Putin in Trump`s party? I have never seen such
collaboration, politically, as of today.
MATTHEWS: Well, here he is.
“The Washington Post” reporting tonight that multiple former White House
officials say they fear that Russian President Vladimir Putin directly
influenced President Trump`s views about Ukraine and the 2016 election.
They say his views may have been shaped when the two leaders met privately
on a G20 summit – at the summit in the summer of `17.
“The Washington Post” writes that: “One former senior White House officials
said Trump even stated so explicitly at one point, saying he knew Ukraine
was the real culprit because `Putin told me.`”
That`s how he gets this information.
Meanwhile, Putin is coming to Trump`s defense on impeachment, saying: “The
party that wants the 2016 election, the Democratic Party, is trying to
achieve results by other means.”
They`re working together in tandem.
RHODES: Yes, that`s right, Chris.
And I – it`s very much Trump in Putin`s party, because Putin is the one
who`s writing the music, and Trump is just the one singing the tune here.
This whole idea that Ukraine was behind the 2016 interference in the
election, that`s a Russian disinformation campaign that Trump is repeating.
What we don`t know is why. And there are only two reasons. One could be
corruption and financial interests.
And the other could be that Donald Trump feels an affinity for this
autocratic leader of Russia who jails, his opponents, governs a country
where journalists have been killed. Either one of those answers is very
And, frankly, I think the Republican Party that used to stand up against
RHODES: … has fundamentally transformed itself to defend this conduct.
MATTHEWS: Susan, maybe this calls for too much interpretation, but why
would Trump buy Soviet propaganda, the Russian propaganda?
PAGE: I think, in a…
MATTHEWS: Because it is still the KGB. It`s still the Soviet Union in
terms of lying.
I think it is, in a way, the most fundamental question we don`t have an
answer to, is, why has President Trump from the time he was a candidate had
such a friendly attitude toward Russia, unlike anything we have ever seen
in modern times between an American leader and either a Soviet leader or a
PAGE: And I don`t think we know – I don`t think we know the answer to
I think that the day will come when we do.
PAGE: I believe in history`s judgment on these things.
But it is the conundrum that has led – and what has led President Trump to
this sad state of being impeached? It is because – at least in part
because of his faith in Russia and his willingness to attack Ukraine.
Yes, I think Medvedev is more independent of Putin than he is.
Anyway, thank you, Susan Page. Merry Christmas to you.
Ben, thank you so much, sir.
Happy holidays to everybody out there.
Still ahead: If Trump was banking on cultlike loyalty carrying him through
this impeachment process, it looks like he called it correctly, cultlike
behavior by the Republicans.
Running down some of the rhetoric they use to defend this president – next
on HARDBALL. Some of it is actually messianic about this guy.
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
Last time, President Trump boasted about the fact that zero Republicans
voted for the articles of impeachment in the House.
Republicans spent the day yesterday going overboard in their condemnation
of impeachment itself, with some comparing the president`s plight to Pearl
Harbor and what the lord went through.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE KELLY (R-PA): On December 7, 1941, a horrific act happened in
the United States. And it`s one that President Roosevelt said, this is a
date that will live in infamy. Today, December the 18th, 2019, is another
date that will live in infamy.
REP. ROGER MARSHALL (R-KS): The impeachment of a legitimately elected
president of the United States.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s tantamount to a coup.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They hate this president.
REP. BARRY LOUDERMILK (R-GA): When Jesus was falsely accused of treason,
Pontius Pilate gave Jesus the opportunity to face his accusers.
During that sham trial, Pontius Pilate afforded more rights to Jesus than
the Democrats have afforded this president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: I thought I had heard everything.
Anyway, Republicans may have been good to stay in lockstep with Trump to
avoid attacks like the one he made on the campaign trail last night, when
he mocked a deceased former U.S. congressman, deceased, suggesting he was
That`s what you get when you break with Trump.
You`re watching HARDBALL.
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
At his rally last night in Michigan, a two-hour rally by him, two hours of
talking, President Trump went after the late Democratic Congressman from
that state of Michigan John Dingell.
Trump insinuated that Dingell was looking up from hell at his widow, U.S.
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell, who is actually a friend of mine, who voted
to impeach the president yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Debbie Dingell, that`s a real beauty.
So, she calls me up like eight months ago. Her husband was there a long
time. But I didn`t give him the B treatment. I didn`t give him the C or
D. I could have. Nobody would have – you know? I gave the A-plus
She calls me up. It`s the nicest thing that`s ever happened. Thank you so
much. John would be so thrilled. He`s looking down. He would be so
thrilled. Thank you so much, sir.
I said, that`s OK. Don`t worry about it.
Maybe he`s looking up. I don`t know.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, Michael Steele, thank you. That`s your party, former RNC
chair. I love to remind you of that.
Dana Milbank, how can you do satire in an age where the president behaves
grotesquely like this?
DANA MILBANK, OP-ED COLUMNIST, “THE WASHINGTON POST”: Well, the president
is the satire now, and we just record what he does.
Seven minutes before he did that, he received a note – you could see him
looking off stage – that the vote had occurred, he`d been impeached on the
second article. So, probably, in his head, he`s in something of a rage
And you see where he goes, into the most vicious possible direction. To
pick on the widow or whatever, one thing, popular character in town, but to
pick on John Dingell, the dean of the House, there for six years, and
everybody loved him.
He was all about…
MATTHEWS: He was the number one defender of the auto industry. And
everybody depends on the auto industry in Michigan.
MILBANK: They love him. They love him in Michigan.
But his whole shtick was, you can fight, you can fight bitterly, but with a
modicum of respect. In fact, he dictated those words, you need a modicum
of respect, on the day he died. And Debbie Dingell published it
posthumously in “The Post.”
MATTHEWS: That`s what John believed in.
MILBANK: That`s what he believed in.
And Trump is the very polar opposite of that.
MICHAEL STEELE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.
MATTHEWS: Yes, he really was one of the beloved figures. And he was old-
STEELE: He was old-school.
MATTHEWS: He looked out for his district. He looked out for the industry.
But everybody liked him.
STEELE: But noted – but note the reaction of the crowd. It was not…
MATTHEWS: The people behind him – are we supposed to laugh at that?
MATTHEWS: Then, when they got the cue, though…
MATTHEWS: … when they said he`s down in hell, they realized – because
this is what he talked about – this is how he talks about John McCain.
STEELE: Yes, exactly.
And I – but some of this is wearing thin on folks out there. We have know
that has been reported. The question becomes, I think, at some point, does
it grow into something where Trump feels he has to check?
Now, I don`t think it does and I don`t think he does. But it does say
something about where we are right now as a country that the president of
the United States can go up on a stage like that and say that and feel he
could get away with it.
I think you`re right, though. I think that was the only way he could
release the anger that he was feeling once he realized that he was fully
MATTHEWS: OK. But – but…
STEELE: It didn`t matter.
MATTHEWS: But, Michael, he`s not alone in this cult behavior, cultlike
STEELE: Of course he is.
MATTHEWS: He has a guy – he`s not alone.
He got a guy the other day – we just watched him – from Georgia, a member
of Congress, comparing him to Jesus in his trial with Pontius Pilate.
I`ve never – I`ve been watching politics all of my life, I`ve never heard
anybody compared to Jesus. I mean, what`s going on here? It`s crazy talk.
DANA MILBANK, POLITICAL COLUMNIST, “THE WASHINGTON POST”: It`s the insult
culture. I mean, some of it is to appeal to Trump. But I think it`s
happening to all of us.
I catch myself in a column that`s name-calling, stop doing it, but we all
get caught up –
MATTHEWS: Is this grievance culture, that he`s being treated like a
century first Christian, he`s being fed to the lions kind of thing? I
mean, what – who are the people who buy into this?
MILBANK: He`s fed it. But it`s this idea of vulgarity. He said four
times words last night that we can`t say on the airways that he`s saying,
and he`s tweeting now other words we can`t say on the airwaves to 65
MATTHEWS: Again, is that – is that the grievance of the anti-PC crowd?
MILBANK: Yes, exactly.
MATTHEWS: Because they know we can`t say it. They`re not supposed to say
it. They root for a guy that says the awful.
MICHAEL STEELE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, who says the awful that
they think and have been told generation after generation they can`t
So now you have a leader like Trump coming out and saying what people
around their bars and neighborhoods, at the dinner table say when they pick
up the newspaper or turn on the television and react to things.
MATTHEWS: Van Drew from South Jersey, we always went to Ocean City growing
up New Jersey. I love the place.
I`ve got to tell you something, this guy Van Drew was a Democrat yesterday,
today is a Republican, but not only is he a Republican, he`s offering
undying support. He just switched parties, but this is undying. He can
switch parties every three days, but not with the president. He has an
undying support with the president.
MILBANK: He`s a gambler from Atlantic City, in for a dime, in for a
dollar. I was watching –
MATTHEWS: I just won 900 bucks at a wedding. I got a problem –
MILBANK: There you go.
I was watching the impeachment debate from the gallery yesterday, look
over, there he was in this policeman buoyant blue plaid suit, hang out,
yakking it up with Steve King, his new buddy. So, he`s going like, I`m
going to be Republican. I`m going to do Louie Gohmert.
MATTHEWS: Go all the way.
MATTHEWS: I`m more of a convert. I`m all the way with this one.
STEELE: There`s a reason for it, though, because in typical fashion what
would happen is he would be primaried in a Republican primary as an
STEELE: And so, what he`s doing right now is going no, no, I`m a full on
MATTHEWS: I`m a full MAGA guy.
MATTHEWS: That is so smart. Now he said he`s not crazy, because if you`re
really in with this guy, Trump, you go all the way.
MILBANK: Well, this will be a testament. He voted against Trump 93
percent of the time. I mean how stupid are Republicans going to be to say
oh, suddenly this guy is –
STEELE: That`s what he`s hedging a bet against because the Republican
Party in New Jersey right now has a problem and he`s it, and so they want
the seat, but they don`t want him necessarily in it.
MATTHEWS: The great Michael Kinsley once said, the best flattery was total
phony flattery because it really shows you`re kissing the guy`s butt. You
will say anything to get this guy – in other words, if you don`t like
Trump but you say you like him, he likes it even better.
Anyway, thank you, Michael Steele, in a sick world.
Anyway, thank you, Dana Milbank. You are a great writer.
Up next, presidential candidate, Senator Cory Booker, joins us to talk
about impeachment and the status of his – there he is. Great guy. He`s
waiting for us.
Cory Booker, we`re going to talk about the debate tonight, in which he will
not be taking part, unfortunately.
You`re watching HARDBALL.
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
As Donald Trump became the third president in history to be tarnished as he
would call it the ugly blemish of impeachment that`s his word on this, it`s
ugly, seven Democrats are getting ready to make their case to the American
people to replace him in the big debate tonight in Los Angeles. It`s a
pared down debate. It`s at the DNC, because the DNC, the Democratic
National Committee, has tightened the rules by demanding higher polling
numbers, higher percentages, and higher fundraising thresholds for more
In fact, one of the people not able to make tonight`s debate because of
those threshold rules is New Jersey Senator Cory Booker. He joins me now
from Des Moines, Iowa.
Senator, it`s great to have you on.
And I want to tell people – tell you what I tell people about you, because
every time I met with you, I like you, you`re a very likable guy. You`re a
charismatic guy. I`m not blowing smoke here.
Why haven`t you caught on – I mean, you must have – it must be driving
you crazy. You`re a Rhodes scholar, you`re a senator from New Jersey,
you`re a former jock, you`ve got some game footage to show, you – a great
passing receiver – I`m just kidding – but what is this game about? And
we don`t have any minorities left on that stage tonight.
SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, first of all, in
terms of my football career, the older I get, the better I was, and I
BOOKER: Look, we are – we are surging right now. Our campaign has had
the best six weeks. We have – it`s so funny because the polls they had to
qualify, it was like the desert. There`s fewest amount of polls between
the last debate which we did really well and won a lot of independent,
undecided voters and focused groups, and this. There`s very few polls.
Now there are. We hit 4 percent. We hit the qualifying numbers as soon as
they closed this and we started seeing more polls. Even more than that,
we`re seeing a surge online, our best online fundraising days, because
Americans don`t want to see me off that stage. So people are going to
corybooker.com and helping out.
Here in Iowa where I am right now, we are now raising up in the top three
or so in net favorabilities.
BOOKER: Most Iowans haven`t made up their mind yet. So just a popular
candidate, and we are one of the leaders in Iowa and New Hampshire for
endorsements from local elected leaders.
So, we`re having a great moment. It`s a shame that we`re not on that stage
tonight, and I think there`s a lot of things this says that billionaires
using the criteria can buy their way onto the stage but others can`t. I`m
very confident about our run into Iowa to win.
And the last thing I want to say is polls have never been predictive.
We`ve never seen someone leading in the polls at this point from our party
going to the White House. John Kerry, John Edwards polling sixth and
seventh, 4 percent and 2 percent, in 2003, go on to finish one and two in
the Iowa caucuses a month later.
So this is wide open, and I`m excited about our pathway to win and I hope
more people will support me at corybooker.com.
MATTHEWS: OK. Well, ratings are valid, even if polls aren`t. And the
race we`re showing, you got a 1.5 million to 2 million people listening
right now. So, talk about impeachment.
Do you think we could have a fair trial in the U.S. Senate without
BOOKER: I think we`re going to be cheated out of all the evidence that is
there. There are first-hand witness, people like the acting chief of
staff, Mulvaney. There were people that were in the room when it happened
BOOKER: – that can speak to the damning evidence that we have already.
And it`s a shame that they`re not coming before the United States Senate.
MATTHEWS: Do you think Pelosi is right to play hardball here?
BOOKER: Yes. She has been a light worker in this very dark time for our
republic. This is very sad sobering time, and she`s dealt with this with
the kind of gravity and deft it deserves. So, I thin, she`s doing – she`s
almost flawless in the way she`s dealing with this.
It`s going to come to the Senate eventually and I think she`s right to try
to use whatever leverage she can to make sure there`s fairness on the
Senate side. And it`s a shame that Mitch McConnell now, even though we
will literally swear an oath to be impartial jurors he`s already saying to
the American public this is about politics and my fealty to Donald Trump
and not to what the Constitution dictates. It`s unbelievable.
MATTHEWS: What about – more to that point, Senator, Mitch McConnell, the
Senate Republican leader who has 53 votes, is now saying he`s going to do
what they tell him to do from the White House, the president`s lawyers to
defend him in the Senate trial for the continuation or not continuation of
this presidency. He`s going to take his orders from the president, the
defendant`s lawyers. He said it.
BOOKER: I mean, it is shameful, and history, you know, is going to look
back on this as for what it is. For a person that`s in the United States
Senate that has an obligation to conduct themselves in accordance with the
rules that were spelled out by our Founders, for him to say, I`m sorry this
was going to be a coordination between him and the White House to make sure
that Donald Trump is not convicted, that is ridiculous.
What are Republicans afraid of? Let there be folks that come before Senate
and swear under oath and tell the truth. Let us see it. They`re afraid of
MATTHEWS: OK. Let`s talk about when we were raised I believe as kids by
good parents. Don`t make – don`t make fun of people`s physical, you know,
handicaps if you will, challenges. Don`t make funs of people`s appearance.
Don`t make fun of the dead.
The president honors none of these rules. What`s that doing to the
He`s doing it in public. Making fun of John Dingell, saying he`s in hell.
Telling his wife your husband is in – your late husband is in hell, saying
that to her on national television. What do you make of that and what it
does to our decency levels for our country?
BOOKER: So I think there`s moment coming in this country, and I know many
of us have passed it already where enough is enough. I think that this
election that we have right now is not a referendum on him, it`s a
referendum on us and who we are and we`re going to be to each other. My
whole campaign has been about this idea that we need a revival of civic
grace in our country, we need to show a more courageous empathy for each
other because these rifts, these fissures, it`s not becoming partisanship.
It`s getting tribalism.
That if we`re going to get big things done again, like beating the Nazis,
going to the moon, these were always things did with new American
BOOKER: Where we saw each other not as enemies, but coming together.
Give a president that is whipping up hate, divisiveness, demeaning and
degrading people. We need – we need to turn a corner in this country, and
revive those elements of decency and grace. We are a great nation because
we are a good people. And we need our politics to better reflect that.
And that`s why I`m running. That`s how we accomplish big things. That`s
how we take on big challenges. I think the next president of the United
States has got to be someone who can heal and bring out the best of
MATTHEWS: Well, I do root for you, sir. And I want to ask you this about
this crazy alliance you had, erstwhile alliance with Van Drew, the
congressman from South Jersey. He switched today, he switched parties.
You endorsed him. I think – I`m sorry, he`d endorsed you. What is going
– he also said having switched parties he said I may switch parties he`s
implied, but I`m going to be with Donald Trump until I die.
What kind of comment is that in this weird world – a congressman yesterday
compared himself to Jesus facing Pontius Pilate? Now, this guy says I`m
with you until I die. It`s a strange world.
What do you think of it, a Jersey guy?
BOOKER: Yes. Again, this speaks to that tribalism. This is becoming a
politics more about the cult of personality than about the ideals of our
nation. And I think this is sad day for my state and I think what we`re
seeing right now, this should not be a gleeful time what we just saw
yesterday. This should be a sad time for our country.
MATTHEWS: Well, merry Christmas. God be with you, sir. I hope you get on
the trail here – you`re on the trail. Get back in these debates. We need
BOOKER: Yes. You`ll see me in January, especially with folks` help.
MATTHEWS: Thank you, sir.
Up next, what I did not hear yesterday from those opposed to impeachment.
The big dog that didn`t bark yesterday. Anything good about the
You`re watching HARDBALL.
MATTHEWS: As I said last night during our live coverage, I spent the day
yesterday listening gavel to gavel to those members of the House opposed to
President Trump`s impeachment, but I didn`t hear what you would expect to
hear on such a day. It was a statement all of us would expect from allies
of someone being charged with betrayal of the office, of having traded
public trust for personal gain – in this case, of abusing the country`s
It was a single solitary defense of the man`s character. I didn`t hear a
single Republican man or woman from any region of the country stand in the
well of the House of Representatives and say that Donald Trump is a good
man. And he`s an honest man, that he isn`t the kind of man that would
exploit his power for something for himself.
I think this is important, a fact of the case that belongs in the history
books that opposing impeachment down the line, that the entire political
party would not say word in defense of this president`s character. I
believe this grievous moral deficiency, this lack of basic human decency,
which Trump held out there again last night and speaking so of
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell and her late husband, John Dingell, will be
his downfall. It will be a question members of the Senate confront this
January, and the voters will confront next November, when their leaders
tell them to vote for Trump even as they refuse to vouch for his basic
Think about it. Trump can say the Republican Party is united behind him,
but not one Republican member truly defended him morally.
And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.
“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.
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Copyright 2019 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are
protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced,
distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the
prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter
or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the