Biden gets into a heated exchange. TRANSCRIPT: 12/5/19, Hardball w/ Chris Matthews.

Guests:
Mary Gay Scanlon, Susan Page, Elizabeth Holtzman, Steve Israel, David Jolly, Laurence Tribe, Zerlina Maxwell
Transcript:

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST:  The court also once unanimously ruled against Bill

Clinton in a similar thing.  We will keep an eye on it and keep you

appraised on all the news.

 

That does it for me.  I`ll see you back here tomorrow at 6:00 P.M. 

HARDBALL is up next.

 

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  The speaker`s verdict, impeach him.  Let`s

play HARDBALL.

 

Good evening.  I`m Chris Matthews up in New York.

 

Well, the speaker of the House spoke for the Democrats today and called for

impeachment of the president.  Nancy Pelosi began the day directing

congressional committees to get busy next week drafting articles of

impeachment against Donald J. Trump.  In doing so, Speaker Pelosi

established herself as the driving force to make President Trump the third

American president to be impeached by the House.

 

Pelosi`s declaration today now leaves the House two full working weeks

before it leaves Washington for the Christmas recess to complete its work

on Impeachment.  She said the House has no choice but to act now in the

face of the president`s wrongdoing.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA):  The facts are uncontested.  The president abused

his power for his own personal political benefit at the expense of our

national security by withholding military aid and crucial Oval Office

meeting in exchange for an announcement of an investigation into his

political rival.

 

Sadly, but with confidence and humility with allegiance to our founders and

our heart full of love for America, today, I am asking our chairman to

proceed with articles of impeachment.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Just hours after Pelosi spoke, the Judiciary Committee announced

a hearing for next Monday, December 9th to hear impeachment evidence from

the House Intelligence Committee.  That would clear the way for articles to

be drafted by the Judiciary Committee and voted on next week in that

committee with a vote by the full House the week after.  Friday, December

20th, by the way is the last scheduled day of the House session this year.

 

Today, Pelosi rebuked a reporter who suggested she is being driven by

personal antipathy toward the president.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

REPORTER:  Do you hate the president, Madam Speaker?

 

PELOSI:  I don`t hate anybody.  I was raised in a catholic house.  I don`t

hate anybody, not anybody in the world.  Don`t accuse me of hating anybody.

 

REPORTER:  I did not accuse you.

 

PELOS:  You did.

 

REPORTER:  I asked a question.

 

Representative Collins, yesterday, suggested that the Democrats are doing

this simply because they don`t like the guy.

 

PELOSI:  I had nothing to do with it.  Let me just say this.

 

As a catholic, I resent your using the word, hate, in a sentence that

addresses me.  I don`t hate anyone.  I was raised in a way that is a heart

full of love and always pray for the president.  And I still pray for the

president.  I pray for the president all the time.  So don`t mess with me

when it comes to words like that.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  For more, I`m joined by Democratic Congresswoman Mary Gay

Scanlon of Pennsylvania, vice-chair of the House Judiciary Committee, Susan

Page, Washington Bureau Chief for USA Today, and former Congresswoman

Elizabeth Holtzman, a member of the House Judiciary Committee during

Watergate.  What a great trio.  Thank you all.

 

Congresswoman, give us a sense now that the speaker has laid down the law,

basically.  What`s it going to look like between now and the Christmas

break, the Friday after next?

 

REP. MARY GAY SCANLON (D-PA):  Well, I think we`re going to continue to do

the hard work we`ve been doing.  Yesterday, you saw that we had a hearing

where we laid out the constitutional basis for impeachment, the kinds of

things that the founders thought were impeachable offenses.  And then on

Monday, we`re going to have a hearing where we look at the evidence that`s

been compiled to date and apply that to the constitutional foundation.

 

MATTHEWS:  What`s it going to look like?  I mean, you`re sitting on the

committee.  You`re spending a good part of your time and mind thinking

about it.  Give us a sense of what you see coming, what you`d like to see

coming in terms of articles.

 

SCANLON:  Well, that`s what`s going to – that`s what we`re moving into

this next week.  I mean, I`m certain everyone has thought privately about

it, but we haven`t had those discussions yet because this has been a very

quickly moving investigation.

 

But now we`re at the point where we are going to have those discussions. 

And, certainly, we heard yesterday from these constitutional experts that

the founders were worried about interference by other countries in our

nation`s affairs.  We heard about worries about just corrupt elections and

just general corruption.  What we didn`t hear was that the founders

anticipated we`d have one president who gave all of those things in one

bucket.

 

MATTHEWS:  I`ve been hearing now for the first time in my life.  The last

couple of years are the most important political battleground in the

country are the counties around Philadelphia, including your county,

Delaware County, Pennsylvania.  What is the – has the message of the

speaker and your Judiciary Committee and the rest of the Democratic House,

has it permeated out there among the people?

 

SCANLON:  Well, it certainly has in my region.  I mean, you know, in

addition to coming from a district that includes Philadelphia, where the

Constitution was written, Pennsylvania has been very aware of election

issues in the last few years.  We`ve had some voter suppression measures. 

We had a strict voter I.D. law that had to be overturned.  I`m here in

large part because we have gerrymandering, that was determined to be

unconstitutional.

 

So Pennsylvania voters are very aware of the fact that people can try to

mess with our elections.  Certainly, people have been very focused on

whether there is wrongdoing in D.C.  And just this Monday night, I was at a

forum on what is impeachment and talking to constitutional experts.  And I

had a gentleman come up and talk to me.  He was former township official. 

And he said, I worked for a township.  If I had done what the president has

done here, I`d be in jail.  So people get it.

 

MATTHEWS:  I think I got it growing up in Philly.  Because in the dirty old

days of Philadelphia, when it was somewhat corrupt, as we all remember,

sadly, they used to talk about the magistrates who would open their drawer

for people to put all the money in there if they want the call to go their

way.  That was the old way.  Anyway, thank you.

 

Let me go to Susan Page on this.  It does seem to be coming into focus like

an old Polaroid picture.  I think it looks like a couple of articles of

impeachment in the next couple of weeks.  It`s going to get done.

 

SUSAN PAGE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, USA TODAY:  I believe that`s right. 

You heard some clues of that with what Speaker Pelosi told reporters today,

an article on abuse of power, perhaps one on bribery, on obstruction of

Congress, perhaps one on obstruction of justice.  We don`t know exactly

what the articles are going to be.  We don`t know exactly if it`s going to

go much beyond the Ukraine affair into pulling things from the Mueller

report, for example.

 

But Speaker Pelosi has kept a pretty good control on this, and her focus

has been narrowly drawn on the Ukraine affair and with a timetable that has

really been extraordinarily fast.  We do expect to have a vote by the full

House by Christmas.  That`s going to be a busy two weeks ahead.

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes, it sure will.

 

President Trump responded, of course, to the speaker`s press conference on

Twitter, his favorite mode of activity, writing, Nancy Pelosi – by the

way, he refers to as like Nancy Pelosi just had a nervous fit.  He`s

unbelievable.  She said she prays for the president.  I don`t believe her,

not even close.  Help the homeless in your district, Nancy.

 

Well, later during an event at the White House, the president was asked for

his thoughts on impeachment.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

REPORTER:  Are you worried, sir, about the stain that impeachment might

have on your legacy?

 

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT:  No, not at all.  It`s a hoax.  It`s a big

fat hoax.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  You know, it gets worse.  And somebody once said to Franklin

Roosevelt, his idea of being president was to be Franklin Roosevelt.  This

guy`s idea of being president of the United States is being Donald Trump.  

He hasn`t risen to the office.  He seems to get lower under this pressure.

 

ELIZABETH HOLTZMAN (D), FORMER REPRESENTATIVE OF NEW YORK:  Yes.  He`s got

no idea that there`s a Constitution – I don`t think he`s ever read it. 

The Constitution creates the power of impeachment.  Why?  And I had to

study this in Watergate, where we went through the same exercise.  We

didn`t hear from experts but we had to study the Constitution and we had to

match the facts up to the Constitution to see if it met the standard.

 

Why did the framers put it in?  They know there was going to be a Donald

Trump or a Richard Nixon.  But they knew some time there would be a

president who would abuse the power of his office, put himself above the

law and threaten our democracy.  And we`ve seen that here.  And we`ve got

to do something about it.

 

MATTHEWS:  Nixon knew he had done something wrong.  He knew when the tapes

came out that he was being corrupt, and he was ashamed of himself.  If you

listen to the later interview, this guy has no shame.

 

HOLTZMAN:  He has no shame, but he knows he`s done something wrong because

he`s been engaged in this huge cover-up.  He`s trying to keep people from

going to the Congress and telling –

 

MATTHEWS:  Consciousness of guilt.

 

HOLTZMAN:  Well, absolutely.  He knows he did something wrong.  He knows

he`s in big trouble.

 

And I think that has to be part of the articles of impeachment because it

goes – when the Intelligence Committee issued the subpoenas, they said, if

you don`t show up, we`re going to use – draw adverse inferences, and

that`s what they need to do.  The president is involved in a big cover-up

here.

 

MATTHEWS:  I just want to go to the Congresswoman about this.  Because, did

you see the president today tweeting and he said, when I shaking – he

didn`t use these words, but, in effect, I was shaking down Zelensky, the

president of Ukraine, I wasn`t doing that for my personal political gain,

trying to get some dirt or bad press on Biden, I was doing it in the

interest of the country.  What`s your thought of his defense today?

 

SCANLON:  Well, this is the latest offense that we`ve heard.  Jim Jordan

tried out that defense yesterday when we were talking to the constitutional

experts.  It is cherry-picking one portion of a sentence and ignoring the

rest of the conversation or at least what we know of it because we still

haven`t seen the entire conversation.

 

I think Congresswoman Holtzman is absolutely right.  He knows that what he

did was wrong, he`s engaging in a cover-up and we`ve heard all manner of

excuses for why we shouldn`t proceed, whether it`s procedural battles or,

you know, just him claiming that Article II allows him to do anything he

wants.

 

 

Then this afternoon and yesterday at the hearings through Ranking Member

Collins, we heard that it`s because, somehow, the Democrats in Congress

hate him.  It`s not about him.  It`s about the Constitution.

 

MATTHEWS:  Let me go to Susan, because I know you`re writing a book about

the speaker.  And I have to tell you, I`ve working to speakers with myself

for half dozen years.  I am really impressed by this speaker.  Her

discipline of the party has always been unbelievable.  She got ACA through,

the first Democratic health bill since, what, whenever, since Medicare or

Medicaid.  She got it through.  She got the votes.

 

And now, I`m watching her pull the reins again.  It looks like she said

this morning at 9:00, I`m calling the shots, we`re going to impeach this

guy.  Your thoughts.

 

PAGE:  That did not start at 9:00 this morning.  he has very firm control

of her caucus.  She had put one of the chairman she trusts the most, Adam

Schiff, in charge of the investigative part of this.  She`s the one that

made the announcement that they`re going to go ahead and draw up articles

of impeachment.

 

She does defer to the chairman of the committees on some issues, but she

not only wants to be in control of this caucus, she has the loyalty of the

caucus behind her.  We may see a defection or two, just a handful of

Democrats on this impeachment vote, but not very many.

 

And it is – it does reflect what we saw on previous – when she got tarp

through, which was on behalf of President Bush, a president she really

agreed with.  She got the Affordable Care Act through when the Obama White

House was ready to reduce the breadth of the bill, and she said no, we`re

going to try to get the whole thing through.  So, yes, this is test of her

speakership.  And we saw in the exchange today how fierce she can be.

 

MATTHEWS:  I`m listening to a person writing a biography of Nancy Pelosi,

and I can see the work you`ve done already, Susan.  Thank you for that.

 

Anyway, Speaker Pelosi stressed the chairmen of several key committees will

make recommendations on articles impeachment.  And today, she met privately

with Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler and Intelligence Chairman, of course,

Adam Schiff, as Susan just mentioned along with the chairs of four other

committees who have been investigating the president.  Pelosi was asked if

she`d support including elements of the Mueller report in the articles of

impeachment in the next two weeks.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

REPORTER:  You mentioned those previous investigations.  Do you want to see

elements of the Mueller report or these other –

 

PELOSI:  I`m not going to tell you about that, okay?  I`m not going to tell

you.  My chairman will be making recommendations as to what the – our

counsel, our lawyers, our chair, the staffs of the committees have been

sensational.  And we`ll look to them for their judgment about what the

articles of impeachment – with all due respect to your question, I`m not

here to talk about that.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, that was interesting, Congresswoman, because I got the

sense when I heard that the speaker was going to announce something at 9:00

this morning that she was grabbing the reins and she was saying, let`s not

spend the next week arguing about whether we go back to Mueller, where the

enlarged and the long list of litany really of articles, or do we stick to

the main focus.  We caught the president abusing his authority, abusing his

power.  We caught the president in a bribe situation.  We`ve got him. 

Let`s not mess this up with a lot of other issues.  Do you have a sense she

still wants to go in that narrow particular direction?

 

SCANLON:  Well, I think that`s what we`re going to be talking about the

next few days.  Certainly, there were ties from the Ukraine incident to,

you know, what we saw throughout the Mueller investigation.  In both

instances, we have the president welcoming or soliciting help from a

foreign country to interfere in an election first in 2016 and now moving

ahead to 2020.  Then once there`s an investigation, he obstructs the

investigation.

 

So there`s a pattern of conduct here that I think we very well may look

into, and we were exploring some of that with our constitutional experts

yesterday.

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, I want to ask you to give some advice to the

Congresswoman, particularly along this line.  Watergate was a word that was

used because of the break-in of the Democratic National Headquarters, but

there was so much more to it than that.  And in this case, do you narrow it

down to one focus, the Zelensky July 25th conversation, or you broaden it

or you just focus on one issue and say, well, we`re really talking about a

lot of other stuff?

 

HOLTZMAN:  Well, I think you can keep it really focused on the abuse of

power, the bribery and the abuse of power in terms of soliciting a fake

investigation of Biden, but you also have this cover-up.

 

And I just wrote an article for The Washington Post about this.  I think in

the article about where the president is covering up, refusing to cooperate

with the committee, forcing people not to testify, intimidating witnesses,

he did that not only about the effort to find out about what happened in

Ukraine, he did that when the Judiciary Committee tried to find out what

happened with regard to Russia.

 

So you can have that in the article of impeachment about obstruction of the

committees and without really changing the focus, which is the president`s

abuse of his power with regard to Ukraine.

 

MATTHEWS:  I think it`s like – I was saying today in our staff meeting

today with my producers, it`s like when you say head of cattle, you mean

the whole cattle.  When you say hands in the ranch, you mean the whole

ranch hand.  Everybody is working.  In a sense, when you hit him on a

couple of these things, you`re really talking about a much larger pattern. 

And by the way, Donald Trump is Donald Trump.  And if he gets away with

this, he`ll do it again.

 

Anyway, thank you, Congresswoman Mary Gay Scanlon of Pennsylvania.  Susan

Page, what a book it`s going to be, and you`ve got some great stuff today. 

I think it may had been her finest hour this morning already.  Anyway,

thank you Congresswoman Elizabeth Holtzman, formerly representing the great

borough of Brooklyn.

 

Coming up, President Trump raises the prospect of calling witnesses,

including (INAUDIBLE) this show he wants to put on in the Senate when they

go to try this case, Adam Schiff, here, Joe Biden and his son, all of them

are coming.  Nancy Pelosi wants to call as a witness, all to testify in

this Senate impeachment trial.  Of course the Republicans – the president

leading the band wants to turn it into a spectacle against Biden, of

course.  Once again, he`s back to the old rabbit hole.

 

Plus, Rudy Giuliani is at it again.  He`s out digging for dirt in Ukraine

on Biden.  He`s being quite open about it this time.

 

And Joe Biden takes on Donald Trump in a new campaign ad that`s now gone

viral.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  The world leaders caught on camera laughing about

President Trump.

 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Several world leaders mocking President Trump.

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  They`re laughing at him.

 

TRUMP:  My administration has accomplished almost more than any

administration in the history of our country.  I didn`t expect that

reaction, but that`s okay.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  That was the voice of Joe Scarborough you heard there in that

ad.

 

Anyway, Biden has also picked a high prestige endorsement.  He got a great

endorsement.  We`ll tell you who that is in just a minute.  We`re coming

back after this.

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY):  The speaker gave a speech on national

television to push forward her rushed and partisan impeachment, not one

word, not one word on the outstanding legislation the American people

actually need.

 

It`s all impeachment all the time. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 

 

That was Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell this morning on Speaker

Pelosi`s announcement that House will proceed directly now with articles of

impeachment.  While McConnell criticized the impeachment process as being

rushed, the president today called for speed.

 

Trump tweeted: “If you`re going to impeach me, do it now, fast, so we can

have a fair trial in the Senate.”

 

Well, Trump`s counting on the Republican majority, of course, in the Senate

that will serve as the jury in this trial to let him off the hook. 

 

White House officials yesterday held a meeting with Republican senators. 

And according to “The Washington Post,” their strategy includes calling –

quote – get ready for the show – “live witnesses on the floor during the

trial.”

 

Previewing that strategy today, President Trump said they will call

Democrats as witnesses, meant with the clear intention of disrupting and

distracting from the core charges against him, the president.

 

Trump said: “We will have Schiff, the Bidens, Pelosi, and many more

testify, and we will reveal for the first time how corrupt our system” –

our system is corrupt.

 

How – the statements the guy makes.  Our governmental system is corrupt. 

 

Anyway, in other words, it appears that the president and his Republican

allies intend to focus his trial on his political opponents. 

 

I`m joined right now by David Jolly, former Republican – I love to do that

to rub it in – congressman from Florida.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

MATTHEWS:  And Steve Israel is a former Democratic congressman, who is

prouder of his ex-party.  In fact, he`s still a Democrat. 

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

MATTHEWS:  You know, when I watch Mitch McConnell, Steve, I don`t know

whether he`s Elmer Fudd or he`s Bugs Bunny, because sometimes he`s playing

defense in a weird – and then the other times – is he to – do you think

he will participate, as a guy who does love the Senate, in making it into a

joke, of bringing all these people in, Hunter Biden and all these people?

 

Do you think he will roll along with the spectacle? 

 

STEVE ISRAEL (D), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN:  I do.  I do.

 

Look, the Republican strategy will be to make this look like a Trump-style

reality television spectacle.  And they`re going to do it by injecting

subplots of deflection and distraction and at times deceit.

 

And Mitch McConnell is going to play along, because, if he doesn`t, he is

afraid – he is fearful of the response by Donald Trump. 

 

But he does have one conflicting priority with the Trump administration. 

And that`s going to create a tension for him.

 

MATTHEWS:  What, keeping the Senate majority?

 

ISRAEL:  And that – yes.  It`s the only thing he cares about is his 53

votes. 

 

And he`s got five Republican senators in states that voted for Hillary

Clinton in Colorado and Iowa, elsewhere around the country.  So he`s got to

get this thing over with, rip the bandage off, and be able to protect those

five senators. 

 

MATTHEWS:  That`s a great question for you. 

 

Does your ex-party still need to save its reputation? 

 

DAVID JOLLY, FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN:  Yes, but I think they`re in the

process of losing it.

 

In `98, during the Clinton impeachment, you had Democrats in the minority

at least accept the truth of Clinton`s behavior, but make a passionate

argument it didn`t rise to the level of impeachment.  Republicans are

over…

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes.  And 31 members voted for the resolution too.  I mean, 31

Democrats said…

 

JOLLY:  Yes.  That`s right. 

 

MATTHEWS:  … let`s go home and take a look at this case, before they

voted. 

 

JOLLY:  That`s exactly right.

 

MATTHEWS:  … most of them with Bill Clinton, yes.

 

JOLLY:  That`s right, Chris. 

 

And in this case, you are seeing Republicans completely overlook the truth,

ignore the truth, and suggest to the American people the truth simply

doesn`t exist. 

 

That`s where they`re really tarnishing and ruining their reputation.  Your

question to Steve, though, is an intriguing one, because it is not Donald

Trump`s call whether or not Biden and Schiff and Nancy Pelosi get to be

witnesses. 

 

It is up to the Senate to work that out.  It was a contentious debate among

Republicans and Democrats during the Clinton impeachment.  Ultimately,

Republicans only called three witnesses, and they let them testify in

private.  And then they provided video testimony during the trial. 

 

This would be a fascinating call if Mitch McConnell goes the route that

Steve suggested.  I`m not disagreeing with Steve.  If he does so, he will

simply ruin the integrity of the institution of the Senate that Mitch

McConnell has suggested he is trying to protect.

 

I think for Donald Trump…

 

MATTHEWS:  I honestly believe he does care about the Senate, by the way,

even though I disagree with him a lot.

 

JOLLY:  I think he does. 

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

MATTHEWS:  I don`t think he wants to make a joke of the institution.

 

JOLLY:  Right. 

 

And, for Trump, it`s always the ratings, not the polls.  Trump wants the

show trial.  He feels like he can excel in the show trial in energizing his

base.  He wants that. 

 

Mitch McConnell, I`m not sure he does, to Steve`s point.  You might lose

those four or five seats that make a difference in the majority. 

 

MATTHEWS:  I think this president would disgrace the United States Senate

to get one vote out of it. 

 

JOLLY:  That`s right. 

 

MATTHEWS:  I don`t think he gives a damn about the United States

government, its institutions. 

 

He said today the whole system`s corrupt.  Well, who`s running it?

 

Anyway, even as the president faces imminent charges of bribery,

obstruction, and abuse of power, of course, he continues to engage in the

very misconduct that`s driving this whole impeachment action. 

 

As we speak, his former – actually, his current lawyer, still his lawyer,

Rudy Giuliani, is out there back in Ukraine – yes, in Ukraine – seeking

more dirt on Trump`s political opponents from former pro-Russian

prosecutors in that country who stand accused of corruption themselves. 

 

Giuliani told “The New York Times” that he`s still acting on Trump`s

behalf, saying: “Like a good lawyer, I am gathering evidence to defend my

client against the false charges being leveled against him.”

 

According to BuzzFeed News, however, an official in Zelensky`s office and

the president – said the president was caught off-guard by Giuliani`s

arrival.  Equally shocked by his arrival was the U.S. Embassy, according to

a U.S. diplomat.

 

Once again, a freebooter out there on his own, But you know he`s in touch

with the president. 

 

ISRAEL:  Of course.  Of course. 

 

Look, this is – this is what`s happening, I think, with Rudy Giuliani. 

First of all, it`s actually sad to watch his deterioration.  He was

America`s mayor. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

 

ISRAEL:  I was in Congress when he was the mayor of New York City.  He was

an icon.  And to watch this happen is actually sad. 

 

But why is he in Ukraine now?

 

MATTHEWS:  He`s like a former heavyweight boxer who becomes the official

greeter at Caesars Palace, or worse. 

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

MATTHEWS:  Go ahead.

 

ISRAEL:  That`s exactly right. 

 

But, look, remember when Kellyanne Conway said at the beginning of this

administration there are facts and there are alternative facts?

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

 

ISRAEL:  What he`s trying to do is create alternative facts.  He`s trying

to create a narrative that doesn`t exist. 

 

What`s – the question in this trial – and I know David agrees with this -

- is, did Donald Trump – the question of this impeachment, did Donald

Trump abuse his power in order to enhance and enrich his campaign? 

 

It is not about Hunter Biden.  It is not about Joe Biden.  It is not about

Adam Schiff.  And we shouldn`t be fooled by this massive distraction. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Let me get back to David.

 

What`s your sense as why the Democrats never called Rudy Giuliani?  They

can still do it the Senate when Adam Schiff – I assume he will be the

chief manager of the fight for conviction against the president and removal

from office. 

 

They can still call, I assume, Rudy Giuliani.

 

JOLLY:  Sure.

 

MATTHEWS:  Why do you think they haven`t done it yet?  Because this seems

to me he`s the mess incarnate, the mess. 

 

JOLLY:  Yes, he`s also a bit of a wild card, kind of like Corey

Lewandowski. 

 

And the question is, do they already have enough, based on all of the

corroborated – corroborating evidence and testimony?  And the answer is

yes. 

 

I think the witness they really want is Mulvaney and Bolton and Pompeo  and

others, but they`re not willing to litigate that. 

 

Why is Rudy over there now, Chris?  Because they`re all corrupt. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

 

JOLLY:  This whole Trump team is corrupt.  That`s – that`s the bottom

line. 

 

I think Rudy Giuliani ultimately ends up in jail for FARA violations or

some other type of violation related to disclosure and receiving foreign

money. 

 

But this will feed the rank-and-file Republicans, particularly in the

House, who will continue to try to delegitimize the Democrats`

investigation, when, in fact, it is the Republicans who are delegitimizing

it by not cooperating with the Democrats. 

 

MATTHEWS:  OK, thank you so much, David Jolly.  Thank you, Steve Israel,

former – two professional members of politics, but now are commentators.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

MATTHEWS:  Thanks so much.

 

Up next:  The Judiciary Committee of the House settles in to write the

articles next week.  Will the committee be taking a focused, narrow

approach, or will it go for a more wide-ranging indictment?

 

A lot of progressives want to go wide.  A lot of moderates want to go

narrow.  It`s an interesting discussion.  We will see if it matters and how

it`s going to work out.

 

In the next minute, when we get back, I`m going to talk to constitutional

scholar Laurence Tribe about what he thinks.

 

You`re watching HARDBALL. 

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA):  Our democracy is what is at stake. 

 

The president leaves us no choice but to act, because he is trying to

corrupt, once again, the election for his own benefit. 

 

The president has engaged in abuse of power, undermining our national

security, and jeopardizing the integrity of our elections.  His actions are

in defiance of the vision of our founders and the oath of office that he

takes to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United

States. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 

 

It will now be up to the Judiciary Committee of the House of

Representatives to determine the scope of the president`s constitutional

violations. 

 

According to the Congressional Research Service – quote – “If the full

committee by majority vote determines that grounds for impeachment exist, a

resolution impeaching the individual in question and setting forth specific

allegations of misconduct in one or more articles of impeachment will be

reported to the full House.”

 

That`s how it works. 

 

According to “The Washington Post” – quote – “Democrats are considering

articles of impeachment against President Trump that include obstruction

and bribery, but are unlikely pursue a treason charge.”

 

I think that`s fair.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

MATTHEWS:  To help us make sense of what comes next, I`m joined by Laurence

Tribe, Harvard law professor and co-author of “To End a Presidency: The

Power of Impeachment.”

 

Sir, what do you – I guess I`m going to ask you a moral – a value

judgment.  Would you like to see the Congress, if it votes articles, that

they limit them to, say, two or three, or go further? 

 

LAURENCE TRIBE, PROFESSOR, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL:  You know, I don`t think it

is the precise number that matters.

 

And the whole debate about whether to go broad or narrow, I think,

misframes the issue.  As I argued in a “Washington Post” op-ed that came

out this evening, the issue isn`t broad or narrow.  The issue is shallow or

deep. 

 

I think it`s important to identify the pattern of misconduct.  As

Representative Scanlon and to some extent former Representative Liz

Holtzman suggested earlier on your show, it is not a one-night stand that

the president had with Russia.  And Ukraine-gate wasn`t a one-night stand

either. 

 

He is a serial abuser.  What we have is a pattern, a consistent pattern. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

 

TRIBE:  First, he asks Russia for help.  Then Russia gives him help, and he

accepts it.  Then he obstructs justice to prevent the discovery.  And as

soon as he thinks that`s behind him, he then turns to Ukraine, and he

shakes down Ukraine. 

 

And if he gets away with that, as he thinks he has, because the whistle

blew, but it blew in time for him to release the aid, then he`s going to go

on to more.  And, as you said, we have got Giuliani out in Ukraine right

now. 

 

He is a serial abuser of power.  And he`s a serial corruptor of our

electoral process.  That`s why this matters.  It`s not some legal

technicality.  It`s the right to vote that matters. 

 

We all care about our vote.  And we don`t want it to be stolen by foreign

influence, by influence, whether it`s from Russia or, as he publicly

requested, from China, or, as he might be requesting behind the scenes,

from maybe North Korea, who knows, Saudi Arabia.

 

And he can use cyberattacks.  The whole integrity of our system and our

right to vote is at stake.  That`s why Nancy Pelosi was so right when she

said this is a matter of our democracy. 

 

It is a pattern that needs to be charged.  It can be charged focusing

centrally on Ukraine, but that means taking Russia into account as well,

but not throwing in the kitchen sink, not Stormy Daniels, not emoluments,

not all the other things that this guy has done that could justify his

impeachment. 

 

It`s this consistent, repeated pattern of serial misconduct that uses the

power of the presidency to enhance his own political standing and wealth. 

That`s not what this country was built on. 

 

And because he thinks he`s above the law, and can stonewall and obstruct

justice, he`s essentially dismantling all of the checks and balances, so

that we can`t wait until the next election.  We have to remove him as soon

as we can. 

 

MATTHEWS:  The way you have said that, Professor, is – so much makes sense

of what John Bolton, for perhaps different reasons, called this whole thing

a drug deal, because the way you describe it… 

 

TRIBE:  Right.

 

MATTHEWS:  … it`s like, the police know that a guy is dealing drugs on

the same corner every night, at the same time every night.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

MATTHEWS:  And they get an agent out there, a police officer to buy drugs

from him, proving that…

 

TRIBE:  Right.

 

MATTHEWS:  Not that he sold drugs that night, but that`s what does.

 

TRIBE:  And that`s his – that`s his pattern.  This is a serial abuser of

power. 

 

He has the office of the presidency, not to help us, the people, not to

help the people who elected him, although his base is mesmerized, I guess,

but to help himself and his family and to keep them in power, perhaps to

create a dynasty, but, in any event, to benefit the Trump Tower, and not to

benefit the people of the United States of America.

 

We need to take our country back.  That`s what this impeachment is about. 

 

MATTHEWS:  One flaw in the argument I wonder about, Professor, is, if you

go back to Mueller and his 10 instances of obstruction of justice in the

second part of his report, if you go back and cite that as the basis in

itself for an article of impeachment, you have to answer the question, if

that`s impeachable, why didn`t you do it when the report came out? 

 

And why didn`t you have the 218 votes for that?  Because each article has

to be self-sufficient, right.

 

TRIBE:  But the pattern – well, you don`t necessarily have a separate

article on obstruction.  You have an article about the pattern of

obstructing justice and defying Congress and taking the law into his own

hands. 

 

The reason we didn`t do it then was that the pattern was only beginning to

emerge.  Sometimes, a crystal forms on a screen, and you see the pattern

more clearly.  And when it`s unmistakable, and when the evidence is

overwhelming and clear, as Nancy Pelosi suggested it must be, then you

move. 

 

And it`s possible – though I`m an eternal optimist here, it`s possible

that the people who now, by a substantial majority, do think the president

should be removed, will begin to feel that even in places like Wisconsin,

Pennsylvania, Michigan, throughout the country.

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

 

TRIBE:  And not only in red and purple areas.

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, Wisconsin is a hard sell right now. 

 

Laurence, one last question, Professor.  The Senate trial coming up, we`re

all going to be watching it.  It`s going to be gavel to gavel on this

network and elsewhere. 

 

Can the Republicans turn that into a spectacle?  Can they turn – are there

any germaneness rules, any way that the chief justice, if he`s ready to do

it, could limit it to the actual matters at hand? 

 

TRIBE:  Well, he can try.

 

And John Roberts, who was a wonderful student of mine, and who has been a

very serious chief justice, may view his role as slightly more than

ceremonial. 

 

Bill Rehnquist, for whom Roberts clerked back in the day, had this robe

with these gold stripes, and he was basically playing a – playing a role

from central casting. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

 

TRIBE:  He said, I didn`t do very much as the presiding officer, but I did

it really well. 

 

Maybe Roberts will take that a little more seriously.  But, ultimately, I

think McConnell has the gavel.  He has a lot of power.  We have seen how

willing he is to abuse it.  And I wouldn`t count on McConnell to conduct a

fair trial.

 

But we have to do everything we can.  We can`t give up just because some

senators are going to risk their legacy and maybe their re-election by

looking the other way while these serious patterns of abuse of power

continue, and they`re going on right now.  That`s why we can`t wait for the

next election. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Thank you.

 

TRIBE:  There are going to be cyber-attacks, real problems in the 2020

election. 

 

MATTHEWS:  It`s an honor to have you on especially at this critical time. 

 

Thank you, Professor Laurence Tribe of Harvard Law. 

 

TRIBE:  Thank you.

 

MATTHEWS:  Still ahead, that was quick, the Biden campaign converged that

video of world leaders laughing at Trump into a sharp new campaign ad. 

Biden makes the case for restoring America`s standing in the world.  And

that`s next on HARDBALL.

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.

 

The biggest headline of Trump`s trip to London was the video, of course, of

world leaders mocking him.  And now, 2020 presidential candidate Joe Biden

using that picture of the mockery to his advantage, releasing this campaign

ad yesterday. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  The world leaders caught on camera laughing about

President Trump. 

 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Several world leaders mocking President Trump. 

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  They`re laughing at him. 

 

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  My administration has

accomplished more than almost any administration in the history of our

country. 

 

Didn`t expect that reaction, but that`s OK. 

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  World leaders mocking and ridiculing him for being

completely off balance. 

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Allies are deeply worried about it.  They say he`s

becoming increasingly isolated.  Something is very wrong. 

 

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  The world sees Trump for what he

is, insincere, ill-informed, corrupt, dangerously incompetent and incapable

of my view of leadership.  And if we give Trump four more years, we`ll have

a great deal of difficulty of ever being able to recover American`s

standing in the world and our capacity to bring nations together. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  That`s a great ad, by the way.  If you get to watch, watch it in

full. 

 

Anyway, today, Biden got a key endorsement to bolster his argument he`s the

best candidate to represent America on the global stage.  We`ll tell you

who that high prestige endorser is. 

 

You`re watching HARDBALL.

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.

 

Today, John Kerry, the former secretary of state and 2004 Democratic

presidential nominee officially endorsed Joe Biden for president, saying in

a statement: I believe Joe Biden is the president our country desperately

needs right now.  I`ve never before seen the world more in need of someone

who on day one can begin the incredibly hard work of putting back together

the world, the world Donald Trump has smashed apart.  That`s well-written.

 

I`m joined right now by Zerlina Maxwell, senior director of progressive

programming for my favorite radio station, Sirius XM.  And Peggy Noonan,

columnist for “The Wall Street Journal”.

 

What do you make of this? 

 

ZERLINA MAXWELL, SIRIUS XM DIRECTOR OF PROGRESSIVE PROGRAMMING:  Look, I

think that it`s not surprising.

 

MATTHEWS:  The timing is pretty good. 

 

MAXWELL:  It`s pretty good, right?  But endorsements I think have less

weight I think in previous cycles because there`s so many different

candidates.  And so, we`re sort of waiting this matrix a little bit

differently.

 

So it`s not surprising.  It`s always good to have another statesman say I

think this guy can be commander in chief.  So it`s a good thing for Biden

but it`s not surprising. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Let`s talk about Kerry and today.  I think you and I know what

matters most in politics is not the argument, because no one ever agrees

they`re wrong.  Everybody keeps the argument going. 

 

If you change the topic, though, if you change the stage, Biden got a break

this week.  The stage is now the world global stage where only he has a

background.  The other candidates are pretty good on issues like health

care and that domestic issue.  He`s the only one with the world experience,

and then throw it in Kerry endorses the give me the old alley-hoop. 

 

PEGGY NOONAN, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL COLUMNIST:  You mean the timing was

good because Trump was on the world stage and it didn`t go so well for him.

 

MATTHEWS:  We were on the world stage, yes. 

 

NOONAN:  Understood.  The American president. 

 

You know, I think John Kerry is justly, highly regarded figure in many –

among many people.  But I would also say that it is probably true that John

Kerry`s endorsement of Biden will be very pleasing for people who are

already for Biden.  Isn`t it sort of not the same quadrant? 

 

MATTHEWS:  It`s being called a new castle, as they used to say. 

 

Anyway, catch this, Biden got in a very heated exchange today with a voter

out in Iowa.  Judge this, especially his performance. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

IOWA VOTER:  We all know Trump has been messing around in Ukraine.  But

you, on the other hand, sent your son over there to get a job and to work

for a gas company that he had no experience with gas or nothing in order to

get access to – for the president. 

 

So you`re selling access to the president just like he was. 

 

BIDEN:  You`re damned liar, man.  That`s not true, and no one has ever said

that.  No one has proved that. 

 

No one ever said my son has done anything wrong and I did not on any

occasion and no on ever said it –

 

IOWA VOTER:  I didn`t say you were doing anything wrong. 

 

BIDEN:  You said I setup my son to work in an oil company.  You know what

you said?  Get your words straight, jack. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Get your words straight.  How`d he handle that? 

 

MAXWELL:  I didn`t think he handled that particularly well.  I think –

some people are talking about how he challenged the guy to push ups and

said something about an IQ test. 

 

MATTHEWS:  And he said you`re too old to vote.

 

MAXWELL:  Right, and you sort of have Trump on the flip side doing similar

things.  But sometimes I –

 

MATTHEWS:  Is Trump our standard now? 

 

MAXWELL:  Well, that`s a sad standard, right?  And I think that, you know,

when we talk about our moment in politics, I think back to moments like

this in 2016.  If you recall in South Carolina, Hillary Clinton was

interrupted by a protester who was criticizing her from her super predator

quote from 1996. 

 

And, you know, at the time – you know, it wasn`t handled like that.  I

can`t imagine that moment happening and Hillary Clinton getting away with

saying you`re a damned liar.  And so I just think that in some ways, we`re

judging the candidates a little bit differently on that front, on a gender

front. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Because of Trump.

 

MAXWELL:  And because of Trump.  So we`ve definitely lowered the bar in

terms of discourse.  But I just think that he`s going to have to handle –

 

MATTHEWS:  You`re so smart about that.  I`m not saying – 

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

MATTHEWS:  Did you see how well Pelosi handled the shot today about hating

Trump and she turned to the guy and said, as a Catholic, I resent.  She had

complete control. 

 

MAXWELL:  Yes.

 

MATTHEWS:  Did Joe Biden have complete control today? 

 

NOONAN:  No.  And I think when I saw that this afternoon, I thought the

great question of Joe Biden`s candidacy in 2020 is, when do moments like

that start to matter?  There are these moments that come by him in which

there`s an awkwardness or a gaffe or a debate moment that isn`t so great. 

 

It has never mattered before.  I`m simply wondering at some point, does it

start to matter? 

 

MATTHEWS:  Here`s the question.  You happened to have the jobs I had,

you`re speechwriting and all, but it`s the job of staff people on a

campaign to sit with a candidate and say this question will come up, and

it`s going to keep coming up, have an answer. 

 

MAXWELL:  Yes, you write the answer out – 

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes.

 

MAXWELL:  – so that they have sort of a go-to template for what they`re

going to say when these issues come up. 

 

This issue is going to come up.  This is the whole center piece of the

impeachment hearings.

 

MATTHEWS:  Right.

 

MAXWELL:  And so, he has to be prepared to respond to people, you know,

protesting or attacking him on this talking point.  It doesn`t matter

they`re not attacking him with the facts. 

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

MAXWELL:  The Republicans are entitled of the facts.

 

MATTHEWS:  It would be unbelievable if it didn`t come up.  It would be

unbelievable if it doesn`t come up.

 

NOONAN:  Don`t you get the sense he`s waiting for it to go away.  He`s

never quite handled this subject right of Hunter and the whole thing.  He

just hasn`t, and you get the stubborn sense of one who loves another, he

doesn`t like the question and he`s waiting for it to stop. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Name a president who hasn`t had a relative they`ve had to

defend?  They`ve all – Nixon had Don Nixon, Billy had – Jimmy Carter

Billy, Billy brother Bush, Billy Beer, Clinton had Roger. 

 

They all seem – it seems to come with the territory.

 

NOONAN:  Because they`re normal families.  Richard Nixon and his brother,

they were normal.  That`s why there`s always someone who is – it`s not

going to work so well. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Not ready for primetime. 

 

Thank you, Zerlina Maxwell.  Thank you, Peggy Noonan. 

 

Up next – this is quite a duo.  Up next, when it comes to Nancy Pelosi, it

seems like Donald Trump doesn`t know what he`s up against.  That`s for

sure. 

 

You`re watching HARDBALL.

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

MATTHEWS:  In the next two weeks, we will witness a battle between a

speaker of the House with leadership ability and a president who should

fear it.  Nancy Pelosi continues to display the attributes that matter. 

 

Let`s look at them. 

 

First, timing.  She opposed impeachment until she saw a clear-cut case to

justify it.  That was Donald Trump`s attempt to shakedown the president of

Ukraine by demanding he smear Joe Biden. 

 

Second, focus.  She has kept the hearings targeted to that case of

presidential bribery. 

 

Lastly, discipline.  Speaker Pelosi won the endorsement for the impeachment

inquiry from all but two Democratic members of Congress.  Her leadership in

this historic moment has been stunning, and it should terrify Donald Trump. 

 

I remember when Richard Nixon learned that Tip O`Neill, my old boss, was

running the impeachment drive against him.  He said that is when he knew he

was in trouble. 

 

So, here`s Trump`s problem.  He`s got Nancy Pelosi on his tail.  She`s got

the timing, the focus and the party discipline.  There`s not a thing in the

world they can do about it because there`s one big difference between Trump

and Nixon.  Dick Nixon was at least smart enough to know who and there are

what he was up against. 

 

And that`s HARDBALL for now.  Thanks for being with us. 

 

“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.

 

 

 

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY

BE UPDATED.

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