Trump defends handling of Economy. TRANSCRIPT: 8/16, 19, Hardball w/ Chris Matthews.

Jonathan Lemire; Susan Del Percio; Jamal Simmons; Anita Kumar, Anthony Scaramucci, Omarosa Manigault-Newman, J.W. Verret

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  Three strikes.  Let`s play HARDBALL.


Good evening.  I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.


President Trump has put all his marbles on the economy.  And tonight on

HARDBALL, two of his former aides, Anthony Scaramucci and Omarosa Manigault

Newman worry he may be losing his marbles.


As I said, President Trump has staked his re-election on the strength of

the U.S. economy.  But on the heels of a turbulent week on Wall Street, the

president got some ominous news in a new Fox News poll out today, showing

him losing ground against top Democratic contenders.


That poll showed the president losing to former Vice President Joe Biden in

a hypothetical head-to-head by 12 points, the president also lesser (ph) by

nine points to Senator Bernie Sanders, by seven to Senator Elizabeth

Warren.  Senator Kamala Harris defeats President Trump by six points.  In

each case, Trump has lost position from a previous poll in July.


Here is Trump`s predicament.  A bad set of poll numbers, a troubling

economic outlook, and no apparent weapon for turning the economy around.


At his rally in New Hampshire last night, he made the case for his

stewardship of the economy, but also with a warning.




DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT:  The bottom line is I know you like me and

this room is a lovefest.  I know that.  But you have no choice but to vote

for me because your 401(k)s, down the tubes, everything is going to be down

the tubes.


So whether you love me or hate me, you got to vote for me.




MATTHEWS:  While the president appears publicly unfazed, The Washington

Post reports privately mounting signs of global economic distress this week

have alarmed the president, who is worried that a downturn could imperil

his re-election.  Even his administration officials acknowledge that they

have not planned for a possible recession.  They`ve got no tools, no

weapons to fight one.


The report adds Trump`s economic adviser have been delivering the

president`s upbeat assessments in which they argue that the domestic

economy is stronger than many forecasters are making it out to be.


For more, I`m joined by Jamal Simmons, Democratic strategist and host Hill

T.V., Susan Del Percio, Republican strategist, Jonathan Lemire, White House

Reporter for the Associated Press.


Jonathan, let`s get through the head on the president.  Three strikes, if

his poll numbers are going down, he is losing to all the top Democrats, if

the Wall Street situation is, well, troublesome at best, perilous at worst,

and now he seems to have nothing in his bag to fight with it, doesn`t have

fiscal policy, the deficit is too big already, he`s not getting any

monetary policy help on money, what has he got to be happy about?



a bit of a bind here.  The economy is what has worried privately the White

House for quite some time.  This is the president`s number one argument for

re-election, this idea that it was his stewardship of the economy that has

been good for the American people.  The economy has been strong.  Maybe not

for every American, and certainly he inherited a growing economy from

Barack Obama.  Let`s not lose sight of that.  But this president can argue

mostly effectively that the economy has been good under his watch.


But now, there are troubling signs of a slowdown.  And, look, we don`t know

that a recession is coming.  But this was the week where that word was

first sort of mentioned publicly down on Wall Street, cable news studios

and everywhere else said this is something that could be coming, and that

terrifies the White House. especially with if the timing is such that it

would arrive sometime next year, just as the president is a few months away

from facing voters again.


And we have reported today as well, complimenting The Washington Post

piece, the president has been at his New Jersey golf club all week, hitting

the links during the day, watching cable in the afternoon and spending his

evenings on the phone, calling his advisers, both formal and informal,

sounding out aides and business leaders about what to make of the economy.


He is worried.  He is worried that perhaps he is not seeing the best data. 

He feels like the media might be manipulating it to hurt his case, and

aides do know indeed to show him stuff, rosier projections.


But right now, the White House is in a wait and see mode.  They don`t

obviously have a tool to sort of boost the economy.  They`re sort of hoping

that increased spending will solve it on its own.


MATTHEWS:  Let me go to Susan, because it seems to me apart from all of

that is the surprising resilience of Elizabeth Warren.  Not just

resilience, but she continues to climb, step by step for the last several

months.  There`s a consistency to her ability to get past the Pocahontas

crap and all that.  She is shaking that off pretty well.  And the president

seems to know that.  Talk about that.  What is he thinking about her coming

at him this way, that she seems to be coming in the polls?



message that some folks see.  I personally don`t.  But there is a populist

message that she has that`s playing over, saying to some middle of the road

Democrats and Republicans she may not be that bad, and that scares Donald



What also scares him is when you show these polls at the top, he is stuck

at 39 percent no matter who he is running against.  So that`s already baked



But there is also something else about Elizabeth Warren which I think

really has helped her a lot.  And I think, Chris, you`ll appreciate this

being on the trail.  She enjoys what she`s doing, and I think Donald Trump

sees that and it irks him.  She is out there enjoying herself, working hard

the way he enjoyed it when he was first running as a candidate before he

was running for re-election.


MATTHEWS:  Well, as Jonathan mentioned just a moment ago, President Trump

has also sounded out business and financial for their advice.  The

Washington Post reports that according to one Republican source briefed on

some conversations, quote, Trump has a somewhat conspiratorial view,

telling some confidantes that he distrusts statistics he sees reported in

the news media and that he suspects economists and other and other

forecasters are presenting biased data to thwart his re-election.


And while the president may not believe economic data when it`s bad, he is

certainly happy to take credit for good stock market performance even when

it`s under his predecessor, Barack Obama.  Let`s watch.




TRUMP:  The markets have gone through the roof since November 9th.  That`s

the day after the election.  So I won the elect.  The markets went up

thousands of points.  Things started happening.  You started doing things

that you would have never, even though I didn`t get sworn in until January

20th.  But they refused to do that.


And let me tell you, if for some reason I wouldn`t have won the election,

these markets would have crashed.




MATTHEWS:  Well, Jamal, I think that`s what he is afraid of, so he`s

marketing against this saying, okay, here are some bad headlines, but don`t

believe them.


JAMAL SIMMONS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST:  Right.  The problem is when the

market drops 800 points in a day, people who don`t normally pay attention

to the market, they pay attention to that, right?  People – listen, there

are a lot of people in the country, half the country doesn`t have a 401(k),

is not invested in stocks.


But there are a bunch of people who are.  A lot of them are now in these

factory jobs where they used to have pensions and they`ve been transitioned

to these 401(k)s, right?


And so they`re planning on putting their kids through college with that. 

They think they`re going retire on it.  But they use it for all kinds of

things throughout their lives.  And if that money is not there, it matters. 

And I think Trump knows that and people are paying attention to it.


I would not be surprised if his little maneuver with Bibi Netanyahu the

other day around Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib, the congresswomen, wasn`t to

try to change the subject away from the stock market, and he pushed Bibi

into making that decision.


MATTHEWS:  Yes.  One way he will push back, and I think, Jonathan and

everybody on this panel knows it, if Trump can`t play defense, he plays

offense, and he`s quite good at it.  If he goes into this election about 40

percent, he will try to get the 47 of whatever it takes to win in the

Electoral College by trashing Pocahontas, or whatever you want to call it. 

He is going to go out at her again.  He`ll go after the old stuff.  He`ll

go after the new stuff.


But I do sense, Susan, and you don`t have the like her to see this.  In

fact, if you`re a good analyst, you don`t care about whether you like

anybody.  You`re just trying to figure out what`s going on, like Susan is.


And what I see is a person making a lot of promises where they can choose

liberal than that (ph) is problematic.  But they`re very good promises. 

They`re all about healthcare.  They`re all about education.  They`re all

about what people are worried about, and she is going to give you the

solution.  It is, to any extent, a populous message, just like Trump`s. 

And it`s a happy message because I`m going to make everything good for you. 

Let`s all enjoy it together.  It`s not dismal.  It`s happy.


And so I wonder, Jonathan, if he just sees the happy warrior coming at him

with a Pocahontas identity.  She will probably now start telling jokes

about it herself.  It must drive him crazy.


LEMIRE:  There`s no question that Senator Warren has really caught the

president`s attention and impressed him.  In our reporting, he is, in the

recent weeks, had private conversations with several aides sort of taken

with the idea that Warren survived a punch, that he felt like he delivered

a deathblow with that Pocahontas slur and the way she tried to handle the

ancestry test of a few months ago.  It really seemed it did hurt her in the

polls initially.  There`s no question there.  It really stepped on her



But since then, she has really been grinding away.  And as Susan said, she

seems like she is enjoying it.  She has really gotten good at connecting

with the individual voters.  She`s just maybe the best political athlete

perhaps with Mayor Pete Buttigieg on the trail right now for the Democrats.


She is very talented and she has connected with voters.  The idea of having

a plan for everything is resonating with folks.  And that`s paying off in

the polls.


Look, former Vice President Biden is still ahead, and his strength

particularly among African-American voters can`t be overstated.  Now, that

matters.  That matters.  And Senator Warren is going to have to make

inroads there.


But she might next month if during the next debate she is able to get on

the stage the first time with Biden, which I think is what a lot of the

political class would like to see.


But there is no question, the president is impressed with her that is much. 

And people around him, as much as they`re growing more confident in their

chances against Vice President Biden, as they say, they believe he has

perhaps lost a few miles on his fastball, they think that Warren –


MATTHEWS:  You mean miles per hour.  You`re actually being crueler than you

sound.  He has lost some MPHs there, right?


LEMIRE:  Yes, exactly.


MATTHEWS:  He is not throwing 95 MPH.


LEMIRE:  Well, he could still bring it to like 88, 89 maybe that the White

House thinks.  But he is not doing 95 anymore.


MATTHEWS:  Let`s talk about the president.


SIMMONS:  One second on this Pocahontas thing.  I put my adviser hat on for

a second.  If anybody asks for Pocahontas, I would just love for Elizabeth

Warren to say, listen, we can spend the rest of this campaign talking about

my family or we can spend the rest of this campaign talking about yours. 

And I`m focused on your family, your kids and your livelihood.  And that`s

the end of the conversation.


MATTHEWS:  Okay, stronger together.


Okay, let me ask you about this.  Trump was physically confident enough of

his dominance of Hillary Clinton when he ran against her to walk up behind

her physically, this is a lot of the primordial behavior, let`s be honest. 

And it`s not just about male/female, whatever that is, in this case, but

it`s about somebody who thinks I can physically walk up behind her like The

Phantom in those comic books and loom over her and get away with it.  I

wonder if he would feel that confident going against Warren to pull that



SIMMONS:  I don`t know if he would or not.  I don`t think Hillary –


MATTHEWS:  Because I get the feeling she`s an offensive – she – like –

Susan said this.  The person, they enjoy what they`re doing and they like

campaigning which obviously Elizabeth likes.  Hillary did it sort of as

necessary, I`ve got to eat my spinach, just like Al Gore did, people like

that.  They did it because they had to.  But they didn`t go into politics

to campaign, right?


SIMMONS:  I don`t think Hillary Clinton did that badly in the debates.  I

think the problem was –


MATTHEWS:  She didn`t love it?


SIMMONS:  But the problem was who was going to learn something new about

Hillary Clinton in a debate they had known for ten years, if they were

paying at all, 15, 20 years.  I think for Elizabeth Warren, she`s got two

things going for her.  One, she seems unflappable.  She just seems like

come do it, I`m fine, I`m good.  The second thing is she knows why she

wants to be president.  This is the fundamental difference between

Elizabeth Warren and so many of these other candidates.  She knows why she

wants to be president.  So you ask her a question, she doesn`t have to do

math and think about what –


MATTHEWS:  Right.  She also doesn`t –


SIMMONS:  She tells you what she thinks.


MATTHEWS:  She also doesn`t answer the question anyway.  How much is

Medicare for all going to cost, ask it three times, I know you`ll give up,

which we`ll keep asking, what it`s all going to cost.


Anyway, thank you, Jamal Simmons, thank you, Susan Del Percio.  See, I`m

thinking like a Republican, Susan.  I`m thinking, it`s a nice proposal, but

what`s it going to cost?  Jonathan Lemire, thank you so much.


Coming up, President Trump seems intent on using the powers of his office,

being president, a big man to go after his political enemies and telling a

foreign country, by the way, to bar members of the U.S. Congress from

entry.  To yank his security clearances from his critics, he does that, to

threatening to withhold disaster relief from the liberal states,

extraordinary performance.  Is this tyrannical behavior by a president? 

Well, look at him.


Plus, Omarosa Manigault Newman and Anthony Scaramucci both worked for

President Trump and knew him well, and they`re both issuing the same

alarming warning about the man.  Well, they`re going join us later to say

how many marbles he has lost, how many shingles from the roof.


And new reporting that President Trump repeatedly expressed interest in

buying, there it is, Greenland, yes, buying it, buying it from the Danish. 

They didn`t know it was for sale either.


Much more ahead.






REPORTER:  Did you speak to Prime Minister Netanyahu about the

Congresswoman coming?


TRUMP:  I don`t want to comment about who I spoke to, but I think my social

media statement pretty well speaks for itself.  But I did speak to people

over there, yes.




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.


That was President Trump yesterday confirming he took the unprecedented

step of speaking with one of our closest foreign allies about barring entry

of two members of the United States Congress who are also outspoken critics

of him, Trump.


This is the first time this president, Trump, has looked to use the powers

of the presidency against his political rivals.  In fact, according to The

Washington Post, quote, it`s a pattern that has intensified during the

first two and a half years of Trump`s presidency as he has increasingly

governed to the tune of his grievances.


For example, in January, President Trump grounded a military plane that

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was going use to visit troops in Afghanistan. 

It came one day after she postponed his State of the Union Address.  Get

the connection?  That was the same month he threatened to withhold disaster

aid to Clifornia, a state led by Democrats following historic wildfires out



Well, last year, he moved to revoke the security clearance from one of his

leading critics, former CIA Director John Brennan.  And he has called for

action against companies like Google, Twitter, Facebook which he`s accused

of political bias against conservatives.


For more, I`m joined Howard Fineman, MSNBC`s News Analyst, and Anita Kumar,

White House Correspondent Associate Editor for Politico.


Howard, this is sort of LBJ, sort of Nixon, traces of sitting in the Oval

Office, how can I screw this guy.  Do you know what I mean?  It`s mob

stuff.  Your thoughts?


HOWARD FINEMAN, MSNBC NEWS ANALYST:  Yes.  Well, in the old days, those

advisers in the Oval Office, whether it was LBJ or Nixon or whoever, would

say, Mr. President, let`s be careful here, or if we`re going to do it, we

have this cutout over here who can handle it.  We`ll do it subterranean. 

We`ll do it with three-cushioned bank shots.  That`s not Donald Trump. 

Donald Trump thrives on, lives on, exists on this kind of attack politics.




FINEMAN:  That`s who he always was.  That`s who he was in business in New

York.  When I interviewed him on the 26th floor of the Trump Tower during

the campaign, he was fascinated by Nixon.  We talked a lot about Nixon. 

And he wasn`t interested in Nixon, the architect of the peace with China.


MATTHEWS:  Linkage.


FINEMAN:  He was interested in, I think, looking back on it, figuring out

how to do publicly and nakedly and openly what Nixon, even Nixon for the

most part, wanted to do in private.


MATTHEWS:  And it was told by people what to do.


You know, I keep thinking of that image in the Untouchables, where Robert

De Niro as Al Capone goes around his cabinet room, his (INAUDIBLE), with a

baseball bat and whacks one of the guys to teach a lesson to the other

cabinet members.  Is all this for Trump wants people to know how nasty he

can be?  Is it a message?



difference is, and you mentioned Nixon and LBJ, is he thrives on doing it

publicly.  He wants to do it publicly.  Did you see the White House this

week said, no, no, he didn`t talk to prime minister – he didn`t talk to

Netanyahu.  And then he is out there saying that he did.  He wants people

to know he did it, and he is doing it, and these are the repercussions for



MATTHEWS:  Well, today, Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib turned down an offer by

Israel that would have allowed her to travel to the West Bank to visit her

grandmother.  She comes from that part of the world, the Palestinian

territories.  And just in the last hour, President Trump responded with

multiple Tweets, writing in part, Representative Tlaib wrote a letter to

Israeli officials desperately wanting to visit her grandmother, permission

was quickly granted, where upon Tlaib obnoxiously turned the approval down,

a complete setup.  The only real winner here is Tlaib`s grandmother, who

doesn`t have to see her now.


That`s getting personal.


FINEMAN:  Well, look, I think –


MATTHEWS:  Can he let it drop –


FINEMAN:  In a way, Obama –


KUMAR:  He never lets it drop.


FINEMAN:  Excuse me.  In a way, President Trump must have said or thought

he was saying to Bibi, Bibi, there is this group over here called the

squad.  I want to run against them.  I really don`t care what damage I do

to the long-term U.S./Israel relationship.  I got Tlaib.  I got Omar.  I

got the others.  I`m going run against them.


And Donald Trump, if he said once at the rally in New Hampshire the other

night that the Squad is the new face of the Democratic Party…


MATTHEWS:  Oh, yes.  He wants…




FINEMAN:  … he said it a dozen times. 


MATTHEWS:  OK, let`s talk politics. 


FINEMAN:  That`s Trump. 


MATTHEWS:  Let`s talk about the big part of this. 


He has done what he wants to do.  Trump wants to make Tlaib and Omar, you

know, and AOC, he wants them to be the Democratic Party.  He has picked

this fight.  Was this strategic? 


KUMAR:  He does.  He does pick this fight. 


MATTHEWS:  He doesn`t want to fight Pelosi, who looks like a grownup. 




KUMAR:  Yes.  He did this on purpose in terms of he – it`s exactly what he

wants.  Right? 


In the big picture, I think that he has always done sort of it`s an us

against them.  We have talked about this before. 




KUMAR:  Whoever the us and them are.  It`s different every time.


But, yes, he wants them to be the face.  He thinks they are not going to be

popular.  He thinks they`re too liberal.  He thinks they`re fill in the

blank, whatever it is.  But he wants that to be what people going into the

election see. 


MATTHEWS:  And he also believes one side wins, one side loses. 


FINEMAN:  Yes, it`s a zero sum game for him. 




FINEMAN:  And my theory on that is it goes back to real estate in New York,

where either you – the only way you win the right to build the building is

by knocking the hell out of everybody else competing with it. 


It`s a zero sum…


MATTHEWS:  But didn`t Merv Griffin beat him? 


FINEMAN:  It`s a zero – yes. 




MATTHEWS:  He didn`t win every fight, yes.


FINEMAN:  And it ought to – everybody keeps thinking this time the enemies

list that he devices isn`t going to have the same amount of power. 


It keeps having it, whether this fight is what – certainly, he does well

in the cultural things.  His problem is, if he tries to use this strategy

on the economy by blaming the Fed, blaming the Chinese and so on, I don`t

think it`s going to work, because that`s the area that he is supposed to be

expert in. 


If he is suddenly saying I`m getting beat by overwhelming – the

overwhelming forces of the Fed or the Chinese, I don`t think that`s going

to work.  And that`s part of the reason why he potentially has a problem on

the economy. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, President Trump`s attempts to use the power of the

presidency to retaliate against his political rivals was also detailed in

the Mueller report itself. 


There were numerous instances where the president sought the Department of

Justice and then Attorney General Jeff Sessions to go after his 2016

presidential rival Hillary Clinton, even though – excuse me – she had

been cleared by the FBI already. 


Quote: “On October 16, 2017, the president met privately with Sessions and

said the Department of Justice was not investigating individuals and events

that the president thought the department should be investigating,

according to contemporaneously notes taken by Rob Porter, the former White

House staff secretary, who was at the meeting.  The president mentioned

Clinton`s e-mails and said: `Don`t have to tell us.  Just take a look.`”


So there he is. 


KUMAR:  There he is.  He`s putting it all out there. 


He`s doing what he wants to do. 




MATTHEWS:  Go get Hillary.  Lock her up. 


KUMAR:  But you know what?  His supporters like that.  They do like it.  It

is lock her up.  They still are talking about 2016. 


But they like that he is out there and being brash and saying here`s what

I`m going to do, and I`m just going to just go out there and do it.  They

deserve that. 


MATTHEWS:  Let me tell you, Howard, because that`s the oldest question in

my head, like two months ago. 




MATTHEWS:  I keep thinking over and over, he is ticking off minorities, who

will vote they have never voted before, I think.


FINEMAN:  Right. 


MATTHEWS:  And they have not have been that excited in 2016, but they`re

going to damned excited in 2020 in the big cities.  There won`t be any

shortfall in the big cities next time. 




MATTHEWS:  The suburban women who had a problem whatever with Hillary,

whatever, that was all personal stuff with the Comey report and everything,

that`s not going to be there, and they`re going to be offended by this

racial stuff. 


So, I don`t know.  Where are these new voters that Trump is going for? 




KUMAR:  He is not going for new voters. 


FINEMAN:  He`s not.  He`s not. 


KUMAR:  He`s not.  He`s going for the base.


MATTHEWS:  Can he win with the same voters? 


KUMAR:  He thinks – they think they can win if those people get out. 


MATTHEWS:  The same ones? 


KUMAR:  The same ones.  But they all have to – it has to be turnout.  It`s

all about turnout. 


MATTHEWS:  But more turnout than `16?




MATTHEWS:  Wait a minute.


Anita, more turnout?  More angry white people, to be blunt? 


KUMAR:  I mean, he – they feel like – I`m not saying they`re not doing

anything to try to get some of those people, but then he does one thing and

then he does another, so he might lose them.  They feel like turnout, it`s

all about turnout.  Turnout, turnout, turnout. 


FINEMAN:  But he has pained himself into a corner here, Chris.  He said in

New Hampshire last night – he said, whether you like me or not, you`re

going have to vote for me. 




KUMAR:  Right. 




MATTHEWS:  I still laugh. 


FINEMAN:  Because the economy is come – is great and the left is coming to

destroy it. 


But if he is going to try to blame the Fed, I mean, that`s 8chan stuff. 

That`s not even 4chan.  That`s 8chan.  That`s not going to work. 


MATTHEWS:  Yes.  I don`t know what that means. 




FINEMAN:  I`m sorry. 


MATTHEWS:  OK.  I`m still an early…




FINEMAN:  It`s the sub-reaches of the Internet. 


MATTHEWS:  I`m an early 21st century guy.




MATTHEWS:  Anyway, Howard, you`re zooming past us in the time warp.  I`m

kidding.  I will learn that from you afterwards.


Howard Fineman, thank you.  Anita Kumar. 


Up next:  President Trump`s rally – he`s a good teacher.  He understands

the infirmities of the student. 




MATTHEWS:  Thank you very much.


New Hampshire, by the way, showcased that now familiar Trumpian bravado,

but there was something else going on, a lot of rambling detours, a lot of

repetition last night, uncharacteristically defensive on the economy last



So, what`s going on with Trump lately?  Has he lost some marbles, some

shingles from the roof?  Is he not the guy he was? 


There are all different ways of asking the question. 


Omarosa Manigault-Newman is going to answer it.  So is Mr. Anthony

Scaramucci and friends.  They are going to talk about what it`s like to be

with Trump and to watch his decline. 


You`re watching HARDBALL. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.  Last night, President Trump held a

nearly two-hour-long rambling rally up in Manchester, New Hampshire.


Amid growing tensions over economic volatility, the president sought

comfort from approximately 12,000 adoring supporters. 


“The New York Times” described the president as typically rambling, veering

on and off script, seemingly at random, over an hour-and-a-half.  He

repeated points he had already made earlier in the evening, as if he did

not remember already making them. 


Let`s watch some of it. 





during the primary?  Trump should come in third or fourth, and we came in

easily number one. 


Do we give up make America great again for keep America great?  Is there

anything better than a Trump rally? 




TRUMP:  But, you know, it`s really we.  It`s not me.  We`re doing it



They came from the hills.  It will be wonderful to make a deal.  I don`t

think we`re ready to make a deal. 


That guy`s got a serious weight problem.  Go home, start exercising. 


I want to take 100 percent of the credit for the incredible turnaround of

New Hampshire. 


They want wind, wind.  Wind is oh so beautiful, as long as you don`t have

to stare at a windmill and your house goes down in value, like to nothing. 






MATTHEWS:  Where does that come from? 


In a “USA Today” piece, conservative columnist Tom Nichols explained why he

would rather vote for almost any 2020 Democratic nominee over President



He writes: “Trump has never been a reasonable man, but for two years he has

gotten worse.  He literally cannot tell the truth from a lie.  He often

seems completely unable to comprehend even basic information, and he flies

off the handle in ways that would have made most of us take our children to

a pediatrician for evaluation.  I`m willing to live whoever wins the

Democratic primary process.  I will likely hate the nominee`s policies, but

at least I will not be concerned that he or she is incapable of

understanding the nuclear or the cyber.” 


Nichols is not the only one warning about the dangers of four more years of

Donald Trump. 


Stay tuned after this break to hear what two notable people – three,

actually – who have worked for the president, including Omarosa Manigault-

Newman and Anthony Scaramucci, have to say on this question of the

president`s marbles. 


You`re watching HARDBALL. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


Roughly a week ago, former White House Communications Director Anthony

Scaramucci made a public break with President Trump and called on other

Republicans to do the same. 


On Trump, Scaramucci told “Vanity Fair”: “He is not a racist, because –

this is very important – he is actually worse than a racist.  He is also

narcissistic.  He doesn`t see people as people.  He sees them as objects in

his field of vision.  We have got to defeat him.  Everybody in the

Republican Party knows it.  They don`t want to lose their mantle of power

and their mantle of leadership, so let`s primary the guy.”


And he is not the only one.  Omarosa Manigault-Newman, former senior White

House official, who has known the president since 2003, has said that

President Trump – President Trump is unfit to be president. 


And J.W. Verret, a former Trump transition member, called for impeachment

proceedings to begin after reading the Mueller report. 


Well, you read it.  Good for you, sir.


And they are all going to join me now.  And they all have joined me.


So, let me go to Scaramucci. 


Sir, Anthony, it`s always great to have you on the show. 


Give us – I have been a lot of occasions where people want to hear what

it`s like behind the scenes, not what people say on television.  So, can

you give us a sense, like you`re a movie director? 


Tell us what it`s like to be with Trump.  What he`s like when you`re

talking turkey with him, when you`re talking what you`re going to do that

day, what you`re up to, who you`re against? 



listen, I – you know, I don`t want to be overly redundant on this sort of

stuff.  It`s just very simple.  He is not a guy that listens. 


He is a guy that is keeping his own counsel, and he is guy that is having a

run-on, rambling – run-on, rambling sentence to himself.  And so what ends

up happening is all strategy and the locus of strategy and any device gets

defused.  And the president is obviously very insecure, so he has a hard

time allowing any other person to take credit in the room. 


Steve Bannon used to joke and say there are no co-stars in Trump`s orbit. 

He is not going let anybody else take credit for anything. 




SCARAMUCCI:  And so that makes it a very big problem when you have got a

trade situation, because you have got economic advisers, Wall Street people

that can tell you – provide predictability for business leaders large and

small as it relates to these tariffs, but the president doesn`t do

something like that. 


That`s advice that he could be getting from somebody, and then maybe

somebody, God forbid, could take credit for something.  And so he does the

Trump tariff roulette, and the ball is spinning all over the place.  And

now investment capital is down in the first and second quarter, will likely

be down in the third quarter. 


 So, that`s sort of what goes on behind the scenes.  And so, yes – and,

again, everybody knows it.  And the question that the American people – we

have to litigate this before the American people.  They just need the

facts.  They need more people to speak out. 


And we have to litigate this before the American people.  Do you want

somebody for the next five years that`s not going to take anybody`s counsel

inside the White House and just literally be talking to himself in that

stream of consciousness that you just witnessed in New Hampshire last



So that`s what we got to do.  It`s a patriotic duty for my fellow

Republicans to do that as well.  And so I feel compelled to speak out about

it because I love my country. 


MATTHEWS:  Omarosa, let`s talk about the three face of Eve here, if you





MATTHEWS:  You knew him from “Apprentice.” 




MATTHEWS:  You knew him from the politics with him, and you know him from

the – having looked in the rear-view mirror at the guy. 




MATTHEWS:  Tell me what they`re like.  What was the guy – he made a lot of

money and succeeded big-time in prime-time TV with that persona, that

serious judger of political horsepower, if you will, economic horsepower. 


Was that just a show? 




I mean, back in 2004, when “The Apprentice” premiered, we watched a very

sharp, intelligent, articulate Donald Trump put on the show for the world. 


What we`re watching is Donald Trump in complete and total mental decline. 

He can`t finish a thought, a sentence.  He can`t even conceptualize simple

policy issues.  And so we should be very concerned about his mental state

as he leads this country. 


MATTHEWS:  What do you think?  What do you think about this economic?  He

spent enormous amount of treasury power with his tax cut, and, apparently,

it`s going to fizzle out like a… 




MATTHEWS:  … like pretty cheap fireworks. 


MANIGAULT-NEWMAN:  Oh, absolutely. 


MATTHEWS:  And it`s not going get the economy on a big roll. 


MANIGAULT-NEWMAN:  And it`s the thing that worries him the most, because he

has hinged his whole reelection campaign on the economy.  And we`re seeing

the declines. 


We`re seeing the indicators, and we`re seeing him unravel, because he

knows, if there is an economic downturn, that he more than likely will not

be reelected. 


MATTHEWS:  Let me talk about the transition, where you worked, J.W.


And he picked all these people like the first pancakes.  They`re all

disasters.  You know what I mean?  The first pancake is always a disaster. 

I don`t know if you don`t cook breakfast, but most people know what I`m

talking about.  You look like I`m crazy.  But that`s how people judge.






MATTHEWS:  It seems like every first appointment was a disaster.  They

didn`t click with him.  They weren`t the personalities.  And then, after a

year or two, he finds somebody else. 


What was the transition like in that regard?  Just picking the wrong people




some successes, actually, but they weren`t his, like the rest of his



I think he had some great picks on Vice Chairman Quarles for the Fed, or

you`re looking at most of the original Federal Reserve nominees in my

policy area. 


MATTHEWS:  But he hates them. 


VERRET:  But that was all Pence on regulatory appointments, just like

success with tax reform was Paul Ryan`s.  Judges that I love – we will

agree to disagree – that was McConnell`s victory, not his. 


So the successes have been other leaders, and the flaws have been his.  I

won`t pretend to diagnosis this man who`s deeply flawed on his best day,

but we should try to diagnosis what`s going on with the country here that

they would vote for this man. 


MATTHEWS:  Did you watch last night? 


VERRET:  I did.  And I don`t know…




MATTHEWS:  Is he thinking?  Or is this some sort of weird peripatetic

reaction, electric kind of mind go – what else can I think about at this

second?  what else is coming to mind?


MANIGAULT-NEWMAN:  He is stuck in reruns. 


If you think of him as a TV performer, he is stuck in rerun, and he can`t

get out.  It`s really difficult to watch. 


MATTHEWS:  Yes.  Well, he`s on Hillary.  He can`t get off Hillary.


Anyway, President Trump has a history of making bizarre and somewhat

confusing comments.  Let`s take a look. 




TRUMP:  In June of 1775, the Continental Congress created a unified army

out of the revolutionary forces encamped around Boston and New York. 


Our army manned the air.  It rammed the ramparts.  It took over the

airports.  It did everything it had to do. 


Frederick Douglass is an example of somebody who has done an amazing job

that is being recognized more and more, I notice. 


I mean, had Andrew Jackson been a little bit later, you wouldn`t have had

the Civil War.  He was – he was a very tough person, but he had a big

heart, and he was he was really angry that – he saw what was happening

with regard to the Civil War.  He said, there is no reason for this. 


You guys know what this represents? 






MATTHEWS:  You know, Anthony, I think he took history at Wharton.  They

don`t teach history at Wharton, which explains why he doesn`t know any



What do you make about the airports back during the American Revolution? 

That they were probably not that busy, since there was no airplanes. 


SCARAMUCCI:  You know, look, I`m not here to just perpetually bash him. 


I would give him a pass on that, because he probably has a hard time

reading the prompter.  And so that – I will give him the pass on that. 


But what I won`t give him a pass on is drawing the historical context to

policy.  And what I won`t give him the pass on is the demagoguery.  And so

if he really understood history and leadership and what happens to

demagogues, Chris, they flame out. 


And our last big-time demagogue was Joe McCarthy.  And so this thing is

going to arc and burn brightly, and then all of the sudden it`s going to

bristle and flame out.  And then people around him – when the spell

breaks, the people around him will be, like, wait, what were we doing? 


And so Omarosa and I are trying to help him.  There were many other people

in there who are trying to help them.  Omarosa and I are willing to speak

out about it.  There are people behind the scenes – I talked to many of

them over the last four or five days – that are getting ready. 


And, again, we have to make this known for the sake of the American people. 

They have to see it for exactly what it is.  Then they themselves can make

that assessment.  That`s what makes a democracy very strong, Chris. 


But it`s the demagoguery and the lack of understanding of that historical

context and what it means to a country like ours. 


MATTHEWS:  You know, Joe McCarthy – I studied a lot of this – lasted

about four-and-a-half years.  He had a hell of a run.  It was awful, but he

lasted right through spring of `54.  And he started in January `50. 


How is long this president`s demagoguery going to succeed?  Because I

notice the demagogues, the good ones, tend to build things.  The real

populists like Huey Long, Hitler, they built stuff.  This guy`s not

building anything. 


MANIGAULT-NEWMAN:  Well, he`s not building anything because he didn`t come

in on a strong foundation.


That reel of comments and missteps that you showed, it demonstrates to the

American people that, one, this president doesn`t read.  He has difficulty

reading.  He has difficulty comprehending.


And a couple of those, I was sitting next to him when he referenced

Frederick Douglass still being alive.  It wasn`t because we didn`t brief

him.  It`s because the information we gave him, he couldn`t process, and he

could not regurgitate that information. 


And so that`s what the American people should be really concerned about is,

how is this president going to lead the nation, when he can`t keep straight

basic facts about history, policy, the economy, and the general state of

this country?


MATTHEWS:  He can`t read.


MANIGAULT-NEWMAN:  I mean, you saw himself.  In the prompter, they had

Dayton and they had El Paso, and he read Toledo and Michigan. 




We have got get some pictures, I think, from the White House photography

office, whatever you call it now, of the president of the United States –

Signal Corps – reading the paper.  We have got to get evidence that he can

actually do it some time. 




MATTHEWS:  Our guests are sticking around. 


Up next:  A Danish politician – yes, from Denmark – as Bernie would say,

Denmark – has said that Trump was out to try to buy Greenland.  Greenland,

he wanted to buy it from the Danes. 


Is this final proof he is a little crazy?  That`s up, the bizarre story,

the craziest one ever.  The president wants to buy that picture.  Why? 


Seward`s Folly, I think they call Alaska. 


We will be right back. 






“The Wall Street Journal” first reported just yesterday that Trump has,

with varying degrees of seriousness, repeatedly expressed interest in

buying Greenland, yes, the country of Greenland, which is Danish territory. 


The Greenland Ministry of Foreign Affairs tweeted earlier today that:

“We`re open for business, not for sale.”


And a Danish politician said: “If he`s truly contemplating this, then this

is final proof he`s gone mad.”


According to “The Journal,” “The Wall Street Journal”: “The president has

asked his White House counsel to look into the idea.  Some of his advisers

have supported the concept, saying it would be a good economic play, while

others dismissed it as a fleeting fascination that will never come to



Well, it`s hardly the first time Trump`s staff has had to entertain some of

his wilder ideas. 


Here goes. 




QUESTION:  Can you clarify the president`s comments?  Was he referring to

military action when he said calm before the storm? 



going to say in advance what the president`s going to do.  And, as he said

last night, in addition to those comments, you will have to wait and see. 


QUESTION:  Do you think people should be concerned that the president then

posted somewhat of an incoherent tweet last night, and it then stayed up

for hours? 




QUESTION:  Why did it stay up so long?  Is no one watching this? 


SPICER:  No, I think the president and a small group of people know exactly

what he meant. 


QUESTION:  How does he know that his phone was actually attacked? 


KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP SENIOR ADVISER:  Let me answer that globally.  He

is the president of the United States.  He has information and intelligence

that the rest of us do not. 



media and the whole world will soon see as we begin to take further actions

that the powers of the president to protect our country are very

substantial and will not be questioned. 




MATTHEWS:  Wow.  There was a warning. 


We`re back with the people who know what it`s like, Anthony Scaramucci,

Omarosa Manigault-Newman, and J.W. Verret. 


What do you make of this buy Greenland proposal, buy Greenland? 


VERRET:  I try to ignore Trump as much as I can. 


Look, this guy can`t even get a trade deal done.  He is going to get a deal

done to buy Greenland?  It`s a warning to the Democratic Party, don`t just

pick someone to get the other side.  That`s what happened in my party.


And I have watched it begin to lose all grounding in principle.  It`s

depressing.  Don`t let that happen to your party. 


MATTHEWS:  Don`t pick a – don`t pick somebody as wild as this one. 


VERRET:  Don`t pick somebody just to get the other side, because here`s

what could happen.


I respect somebody like Joe Biden, who says nice things about Republicans

like me during the primary, when it doesn`t help them.  That speaks to



The future could be Joe Biden and Mitch McConnell working together, and I

think that`s all right.  We can renew some of the old Reagan-Tip O`Neill



MATTHEWS:  Yes, well, that`s an idea.


VERRET:  That was constructive. 




MANIGAULT-NEWMAN:  Yes, but this is just another squirrel.  He throws these

squirrels out when he is trying to get us to distract from something else. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, he didn`t leak this. 


MANIGAULT-NEWMAN:  No.  But he know there`s is this long list of squirrel

things, I call them, to distract. 




Anthony, you`re the business guy.  Is this just sort of the big play, like

Nixon goes to China, I`m going buy Greenland? 


SCARAMUCCI:  Listen, it`s a sign of the meltdown. 


The Republicans have to make a decision.  Are they going to clean it up,

which they have to do, or are they going to try to cover it up, and have

this reactor explode sometime after the next election? 


I am begging my fellow Republicans to please tell the truth.  They say it

off the record all over that town you`re living in, Chris.  Could you

please get to a microphone and tell the truth?  The American people deserve

the truth. 


MATTHEWS:  Has anybody ever stood up in a room and said, Mr. President, I

think you need medical attention?








How about something less than that?  Are you serious?  How about a John

McEnroe?  You`re serious? 




MANIGAULT-NEWMAN:  Very seldomly will people say, are you serious?  If you

did, back when Reince was in or Kelly did, they would remove you. 


MATTHEWS:  OK.  Did he ever ask you to do something that you thought would

be suicidal?  Did he ever say something that you thought was a proposal –

a crazy proposal? 


MANIGAULT-NEWMAN:  Well, there were tons and tons of examples in the

Mueller report of him instructing people to do things that were unethical

or illegal or just completely wrong. 


I mean, he was trying to send Corey Lewandowski to go see the attorney

general to fire a special counsel?  I mean, there are so many examples of

times that he`s directed people to do things that were just nuts. 


MATTHEWS:  Anthony, what is your relationship with the president right now

if you bumped into him at a public event? 


SCARAMUCCI:  With who?  The president or the – I didn`t hear it. 


What`s the relationship with who? 


MATTHEWS:  The president.  Donald Trump, the man, the president of the

United States, if you bumped into – if you have eye contact with him, what





SCARAMUCCI:  This is not a – this is not a personal thing for me

whatsoever, OK? 


MATTHEWS:  I`m just wondering what it`s like.  What`s it like? 


SCARAMUCCI:  So, I have no idea. 


I haven`t seen him in a while.  So I don`t know.  I will be very nice to

him.  I`m a respectful guy.  I respect the office.  I – you know, I feel

bad for him because he is in steady decline.  He was a much better guy 10

or 15 years ago, when I was at a Yankee game with him. 


But this is a problem now for the country.  OK?  This self-destruction is

tied to the future of the country. 


But this is not a personal thing for me.  I would be pleasant to him, like

I am to everybody.  Come on, man.  I go on MSNBC.  That`s like being a

Yankee in Fenway Park.  You guys like me.  I get along with everybody,

Chris.  I got no problem with anybody. 


MATTHEWS:  Who right now – if you could pick the next president, who would

you pick right now, Democrat, Republican, independent? 


SCARAMUCCI:  I don`t want to say, because there are three or four people

who would definitely be a Republican, and there are three or four people on

the Republican side that, if we can break the dam – we need a Eugene

McCarthy to step up and say, no mas, and then we can get three or four

really competitive players in the game.


And then we will win reelection.  We will not win reelection if we steadily

decline the economy from here and we have a continued mental decline of the

president of the United States. 


MATTHEWS:  OK.  Well, that`s…


SCARAMUCCI:  So, it`s time to switch jockeys.  And everybody knows it. 


MATTHEWS:  OK.  That`s a nice idea. 


But Kevin McCarthy, not a bad guy, but he goes by the numbers.  And, right

now, the numbers are for Trump, 89 percent, to hold the nomination. 


Thank you.  It`s great to have you guys on. 


Anthony Scaramucci…


SCARAMUCCI:  He is not an entrepreneur, Chris.  He is not an entrepreneur. 


MATTHEWS:  He`s not you.  He ain`t you.


SCARAMUCCI:  If he was an entrepreneur, he could see the possibilities. 

Just watch over the next three months.  You watch. 


MATTHEWS:  OK.  I`m watching. 


Thank you, Omarosa Manigault-Newman as well.  Thank you, J.W. Verret, for

joining to show. 


UP next:  Late-night Stephen Colbert pinpoints how Trump connects to

voters.  This is the part we haven`t gotten to, why he`s there.


You`re watching HARDBALL. 




MATTHEWS:  Last night, Stephen Colbert offered some penetrating

observations about President Trump. 


I say penetrating because too many of Trump`s critics attack the man`s

surface, his bluster, his up-at-dawn off-the-wall tweets, his too-often



Colbert spoke about Trump`s remarkable talent for reaching in and grabbing

people`s resentments, including the resentments, especially the

resentments, against the country`s powers that be.





people who feel that the – strangely feel like they are like him, or that

he is like them, when I don`t know anyone like him. 


And – but he says, you and me are the same, and I am being victimized. 

Therefore, I understand your experience. 




MATTHEWS:  Well, that`s Trump`s ability to act and talk like the average

guy or woman, someone who has spent his life – or his life excluded, being

looked down upon. 


But as Colbert points out, Trump`s life is nothing like the average guy, or

any person, anyone else, really. 




COLBERT:  But, A, he is not being victimized, and he is like no one.  He

was born with a gold spoon in his mouth.  And maybe he is like everybody

else.  I don`t know.


I suppose people have a commonality. 


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN:  But, clearly, he`s not.


COLBERT:  But the thing – the odd thing about the president is that we

actually know nothing about him. 


We don`t know his – we don`t know stupid things.  We don`t know school

grades.  We don`t know his actual skin color.  We don`t what his actual

hair is like.  We don`t know what he is worth.  We don`t know anything

about his conversations with other world leaders. 


We don`t know anything about him.  That`s the odd part. 




MATTHEWS:  So how does he do it?  How does Trump relate to that large

minority of the electorate, to the point that they will back him no matter

how much he breaks the rules those voters themselves were brought up to



Well, I believe, like Richard Nixon before him, Trump feels the resentment

of that average person toward a party he, for all kinds of reasons, no more

feels invited him to the party, a party led too often by the prestigiously

educated, too often and too long attentive to the political insider, too

long derelict in asking regular people to join them in doing something for

their country, the way that Jack and Bobby Kennedy did back in the `60s. 


Listen, people like to be heard, like to be cared about, like being asked. 

Donald Trump`s entire political success has been and is his awareness of

those lonely millions who felt left out in the cold by those good people

who, can we all agree, might have worked a little harder to keep their



And that`s HARDBALL for now. 


“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.






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