Trump: “I am the least racist person.” TRANSCRIPT: 7/30/19,Hardball w/ Chris Matthews.

Claire McCaskill, Adrienne Elrod, Denny Heck



ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST:  Don`t go anywhere because one of our guests from

earlier this hour is now in the hot seat.  “HARDBALL” with Chris Matthews

is up next.


CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  Who can beat this guy?  Let`s play HARDBALL.


Good evening.  I`m Chris Matthews in the City of Detroit.


An hour from now, ten of the presidential candidates will compete in the

second democratic debate here.  Each will be auditioning to show he or she

can beat the man who continues to fan the flames of racial hostility and

division in this country for his own personal and political benefit. 

That`s where we begin tonight, with him.


President Trump is defending his attacks on Congressman Elijah Cummings

tonight and his Baltimore district, which he described as a disgusting rat

and rodent-infested mess.  At the White House today, the President also

insisted the attacks were not hurting him politically.




DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT:  I think I`m helping myself because I`m

pointing out the tremendous corruption that`s taken place in Baltimore and

other democratic-run cities.  Those people are living in hell in Baltimore. 

They`re largely African-American.  You have a large African-American

population, and they really appreciate what I`m doing, and they`ve let me

know it.


I am the least racist person there is anywhere in the world.  When conmen

(ph) who I`ve known almost all my business life, because I had to deal with

him unfortunately in New York.  But I got along with him, Al Sharpton. 

Now, he`s a racist.  He`s a racist.




MATTHEWS:  And while the President claims he is the least racist person in

the country, a new poll today shows a majority of voters think otherwise. 

The Quinnipiac poll show that 51 percent of all voters said, yes, when

asked, do you think President Trump is racist.  45 percent said no.  But

think of it.  A majority of Americans now say their president is a racist.


But even as the President stands by his latest broadside against an

African-American lawmaker, The Washington Post reports that inside the

White House, some aides privately view Trump`s attacks as a distraction or

politically unhelpful.  And according to The New York Times, several White

House officials agreed it was a bad move.  They privately scoffed at the

idea that it was strategy rather than impulse, concluding that any

political benefit he might derive from revving up his conservative largely

white base could be offset by alienating more moderate voters in the

suburbs of states like Wisconsin and Michigan that he needs to win his

second term.


But this afternoon, President Trump was asked about the politics behind his

ongoing attacks on U.S. Congressman Cummings and the City of Baltimore.




TRUMP:  There is no strategy.  I have no strategy.  There is zero strategy. 

All it is I`m pointing out facts.  So there is no strategy.  It`s very





MATTHEWS:  For more, I`m joined by former Democratic Senator from Missouri,

Claire McCaskill, Peter Baker, Chief White House Correspondent for The New

York Times, and Michael Steele, former RNC Chairman and former Lieutenant

Governor of Maryland.


Michael, I have to start with you.  What are your feelings as a republican

all of your life about hearing a republican president talk the way he is

about people of color?


FMR. LT. GOV. MICHAEL STEELE (R-MD):  It`s disgusting.  It`s not part of

our history.  It`s not what we`ve stood for.  It is not based on the

founding of this party.  It`s championing of the freedom of African slaves,

putting in place the mechanisms, the structures inside and outside of

government to help those transition to economic opportunity here in this

country.  It is not the party of Reagan.


It is not the party of Kemp, when the leader of that party says the things

that this president has said about a great city, the city of our national

anthem, the Star Spangled Banner, the city that wears very proudly the

scars of the growth of this country, the troubles that we see in inner

cities in this country, but also the hope of this country.


So it is very disturbing, Chris.  But as the President noted, it`s not a

strategy.  It`s how he feels.  It`s what he thinks.  And it`s his visceral

response to being challenged by an African-American leader from that city. 

So he paints everybody with a broad brush.  He says that no human would

live in a city where Elijah Cummings was its congressman or its

representative, that no one could do well there, and that`s just not the



MATTHEWS:  Let me go to Senator McCaskill, because you have been in tough

elections in a very tough state, a very divided state.  How does he –

what`s the danger of Trump doing this?  Forget the morals for about three

seconds.  What`s the danger politically in his talk?


FMR. SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL (D-MO):  Well, it`s hard to forget the morals. 

But if you look at this just with a political calculus, Chris, I think many

people are forgetting that this will drive African-American turnout across

this country.  And that is one of the challenges we have is making sure

that the base of our party turns out.


You know, Trump thinks this is somehow going to grow his base, that he can

find more people that are in this hermetically sealed bubble of toxicity

that are at his rallies.  And he has gotten rid of all the people in his

cabinet that disagree with him, and the republicans in the Senate have quit

speaking up.


So he now has free rein to do this stuff without anybody challenging him. 

He doesn`t realize how motivational this is to so many voters.  There were

voters that heard him say that and decided, I will do everything in my

power to make sure I vote and get other people to vote along with me.


MATTHEWS:  Peter, let me talk to you about – The Times is very good at

covering the suburbs.  I`ve been reading it for years.  You guys know

what`s going on in the counties, West Chester, Bucks County around

Philadelphia.  My sense, I`ll jump you here a bit, I don`t think people

want to be thinking of themselves as racist or to vote for a racist

president.  I think he is going to hurt himself in the burbs.  Your




that`s exactly what his own political advisers are worried about.  It`s not

that they`re worry shed going to turn off African-American voters.  He

didn`t win very many of them to begin with.  He isn`t likely to win that

many in 2020.  What they worry about is that they turn off-white voters in

the suburbs who may not be fully invested in him and could be turned off by

the seeming ugliness of this controversy he`s engaged in.


And it`s not just, of course, the last few days.  It goes back to the

attacks on the four congresswomen of color, saying that they should go back

to their home countries, even though they`re from America.  You know, it

creates an atmosphere that makes it harder for suburban republican voters

who want to believe in the big tent version of their party to swallow this

and go along with him.


And that`s what his own White House officials were saying yesterday in

their meeting that we reported on, that they are worried that he will turn

away the very voters he needs next year.


MATTHEWS:  Let me go back to Michael, because I think this will be one time

where he is really missing the boat politically.  Again, putting aside the

obviously morality of what he`s saying and the un-Americanism of what he`s

saying, is that most people when they have a racial attitude, they get mad

at somebody in a car fight, you know, somebody cuts them off, they feel

guilty about it.  They go, why do have I that impulse?  Why do I think like

that?  I`ve got to get over that.  That`s something in the past.


Trump has no shame.  I swear, I don`t think he has the normal shame people

have when they have those impulses of tribalism, racism, ethnic prejudice,

however you call it.  He doesn`t seem to care morally. 

I think he is different than most people.


STEELE:  Yes, and I think he is to this extent, Chris, that he sees all of

this as part of the resources, the tools that he uses in a transaction.  He

sees his engagement with his political opponents.  It`s another form of a

transaction with them, and these are resources that he can go to, if you

will, and use in that conversation.


But here is the rub.  Politics is not like a New York, you know, apartment

deal.  Politics is a very personal game.  And people ultimately in the

final analysis view their politics through a personal lens, which to that

extent, Chris, is why in that very private moment in their car when they`re

cut off by someone and they use something or say something that is racially

toxic or inappropriate, there is this sense of guilt, because the society

overtime has said that we are better than this.  And for this president,

that`s just not part of the transaction.


MATTHEWS:  Also, I think it`s going to be hard for parents in the suburbs

who raise their kids and grandkids to be better than this, to tell them

when the kid says, that the 22-year-old says mom, grandma, who are you

voting for?  I think it`s going to be very hard to say I`ll vote for the



Anyway, the Quinnipiac poll, the one we just rated there also shows a big

difference in opinion about Trump`s behavior on racial lines.  The poll

shows 46 percent of white voters say he is a racist compared to 80 percent

of black voters who say that.  The President was asked to respond to that

number.  Here he goes.




TRUMP:  You know why?  Because the fake news doesn`t report it properly,

people like you.  Fake news does not report it properly.


If the news reported it properly, of all of the things I`ve done for

African-Americans, of all of the things like criminal justice reform, like

opportunity zones, I think I`d do very well with the African-Americans, and

I think I`m doing very well right now.




MATTHEWS:  Senator, did you hear the way he talks?  Things I`ve done for

black people, like he is the patron, he is the plantation owner who was

good to his people.  I mean, he doesn`t even know how to talk in the 21st

century language.  What do you make of the way he talks about African-



MCCASKILL:  Well, his credibility is so – it`s in tatters.  Everyone in

America, I don`t care if they support Donald Trump or don`t, they know he

has a twisted relationship with the truth.  And so when he says this stuff,

you know, unfortunately, we`ve become numb to it.


But I do think, Chris, you hit on something.  You know, I think Americans

are romantic about the presidency.  I think our nature is that we want to

look up so our president, even if we disagree with him.  We want the Office

of the Presidency to be something that we can point to to our children and

say, you know, don`t you want to grow up and be president some day?


That`s what this man is destroying.  He is going as low as he can possibly

go to try to regain power and to keep power in this next election.  And it

is sad.  It is depressing, and I do think America will rise up and say, we

don`t have to put up with this kind of trash talking by the most powerful

man on the planet.


MATTHEWS:  Peter, here is a tough one.  So many times when the President

does something, we say, well, that`s the bottom line, that`s it.  He`s

finished.  It started with the Access Hollywood.  It started with

birtherism, all this stuff we thought was awful and ethnically prejudicial

and racist.  And every time he sort of skates past it with his people, they

– how does he convince his people, and he is trying to do it now with the

black ministers, that his people can say to themselves, we`re not racist?


BAKER:  Yes.  Look, you know, he is a remarkable figure in American

politics in that things that would naturally bring down or at least damage

another president, another politician don`t seem to do that with him.  He

has a different relationship with his voters, I suppose is one way to put



And what he`s trying to do here is clearly draw a line going into 2020

between, you know, which side of America are you on?  Are you on our side

or their side?  And it`s something he has engaged within the past, both in

business and in entertainment and in politics.  Remember, of course,

starting in 2000, you know, I forgot the early years, he was pushing this

idea that Barack Obama was not born in the United States.  He saw that as a

political advantage to do that.  It took him years until he finally agreed

that that wasn`t the case.


Even in entertainment, we wrote a story a couple of weeks ago about a time

when he was looking for a new shtick for the fourth season of The

Apprentice.  And his idea was let`s have an all white team go against an

all black team and hit against each other for the whole season.  He does

not mind pitting Americans against each other based on racial lines. 

That`s been part of his success.


And he doesn`t see it as racism.  He sees it as just the way America, and

he is more honest about it than others and everybody wants to dance around

it and be politically correct.  But he is able to see past that and talk

about, you know, what things really are.  And his argument, as you heard

him say, is I am very good for African-Americans because of criminal

justice reform and the low unemployment rate.


But it touches on something that makes people, a lot of people in America

feel very uncomfortable.  They do look for presidents to try to heal

wounds, not exacerbate them.  And he is willing to dive into that divide

and pull people apart.


MATTHEWS:  Well, in a new interview with C-Span scheduled to air later

tonight, President Trump was asked about being called a racist for his

attacks on Congressman Cummings.  Here he goes.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  When Congressman Elijah Cummings calls you a racist,

your reaction is what?


TRUMP:  Well, I think the word has really gone down a long way because

everybody is called a racist now.  Her own party called Nancy Pelosi a

racist two weeks ago.  The word is so overused, it`s such a disgrace.  And

I can tell you, I`m the least racist person there is in the world as far as

I`m concerned.  And they use it almost when they run out of things to

criticize you.  They say he`s a racist, he`s a racist.


Now, in some cases, it`s true, there are people that are racist, bad

people.  But with me, they have a hard time getting away with it.  And they

don`t get away with it.  And if you look at what I`ve done for African-

Americans between – I mean, look at criminal justice reform.  President

Obama tried so hard to get it.  He couldn`t get it.




MATTHEWS:  Michael, you were Head of the Republican Party.  And I wonder,

were they more illuminated or more aware?  They couldn`t build a Republican

Party based on all whiteness?  Because that`s what Trump seems to be doing,

building a future Republican Party founded on the idea if we get all the

white angry people, we can win presidential elections.


STEELE:  Well, the truth of it is if you have to tell me you`re not a

racist, okay.  Some things are rather self-evident.  And so we should be

allowed to assume and decide those things based on your words and your



Translating that into the politics of the Republican Party, it is setting

up a really big problem.  All the grassroots efforts, all the programs and

things that they`re putting in place right now going into the 2020 cycle

could run into some very, very difficult waters in minority communities

across the country.


Yes, there may be a portion of Hispanics and African-Americans, women,

Asians and others who will vote for the President.  But that will be far

outstripped by two things, the numbers that turn out to vote against him,

and the residual sour taste in their mouths by not just Donald Trump,

because this is the key thing.  This is past Donald Trump.  Everyone kind

of knows him for what he is.


It is the shock, dismay and the consequences of republicans in the House

and Senate who stood by with their heads in very dark places, right, not

paying attention, not acknowledging, not responding to what the American

people by 51 percent now say are racist behavior and rhetoric from this

president.  That will have the most lasting and profound impact on the

Republican Party.


MATTHEWS:  And you just heard that from Michael, Michael Steele, the recent

Chairman of the Republican National Party.  It wasn`t so many years ago

that they weren`t the way they are now.


I want to thank you, Senator Claire McCaskill, Peter Baker and Michael



Coming up, the next big milestone in the race for the White House tonight,

Progressives Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren go head to head here in

Detroit.  For the eight others on the stage tonight, it`s a fight for

survival.  This could mean the end for them.


And how will the candidates address Trump`s racist words over the weekend

when they get on stage tonight and in their campaigns ahead?  NAACP Derrick

Johnson joins us here tonight on HARDBALL.


Much more ahead tonight here in Detroit.  Stick with us.




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


Tonight is the second Democratic debate, which is do-or-die for many of the

candidates on the stage tonight. 


South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg and former Texas Congressman Beto O`Rourke

are among the candidates participating tonight.  And most eyes, will be,

however, on the top two contenders, Senator Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth

Warren, the Democratic socialist and the progressive capitalist, who are

actually friends personally.  They will be on stage together for the first



Advisers tell Politico it`s more likely the candidates will face off

against the more moderate candidates on stage than against each other.  And

one of those moderates is Montana Governor Steve Bullock, who is making his

first debate appearance tonight. 



And then there is tomorrow`s match among former Vice President Joe Biden,

Senators Kamala Harris and Cory Booker. 


For more, I`m joined by Adrienne Elrod, former senior adviser to the

Hillary Clinton campaign, and Jonathan Allen, NBC News digital national

political reporter. 


Adrienne and then Jon, my same question.


I look at the numbers.  We`re all looking at the numbers.  Bernie is losing

to Elizabeth.  He fades.  Every new poll comes out, he is fading.  She is

going up.  She is eating him for breakfast.  Doesn`t he have to take her on




he does, Chris. 


And, obviously, both of those campaigns have put out statements saying

they`re not going to go on the attack, they`re not going to be super

aggressive.  But they`re going to draw contrasts.  And that`s what I`m

going to be looking for tonight. 


I think Bernie is going to try to remind his supporters, hey, listen, I`m

the one who was always championing these issues, right, Medicare for all,

income inequality.




ELROD:  I have been the one who is out there trying to talk about and

address these issues for a long time. 


Elizabeth Warren, however, is going to remind folks, you know what?  I`m

actually the one who has got a road map to getting us, to achieving these



MATTHEWS:  Right. 


ELROD:  So, even if they`re not going at each other in terms of like a

combat warfare, Kamala-Biden round one type of situation, I think you are

going to see the two of them draw a very subtle contrast. 


MATTHEWS:  Jonathan, she is already doing that. 


She said again recently – she said it to me a long time ago, and to

everyone:  I`m not a socialist.  I`m a Democrat.  I believe in the market

that makes the money.  We can distribute it to have a good welfare system,

a good safety net, a good health system.  But we need a market, a free

market, to make money, so we can have a strong economy.


It seems to me she`s already drawing the distinctions with the socialist




difference between the two of them. 


And as Adrienne suggests, I think you are going see some of that soft

contrasts tonight.  But, really, what I`m hearing from people who support

both of these candidates is that what you want to do is show what they call

a bold progressive approach is the best one to beat Donald Trump. 


And I think they both believe that they have got plenty of opportunity. 

They`re running second and third in the polling so far.  They have got

plenty of opportunity down the road to carve out distinctions between each

other, from each other to compete with each other. 


But tonight is about trying to show that a progressive approach is the

right one to take against Trump.  And the first piece of that is going to

battle against some of the centrists that are going to be on the stage



You`re going see Pete Buttigieg, the South Bend mayor, who has a more

moderate path in his rhetoric and certainly in some of his policies, Amy

Klobuchar, the senator from Minnesota, Steve Bullock, the governor of



And I think they`re going to try to show that contrast as the first piece

of proving to the American public that the left approach is the right way

to go.  Of course, we will see what happens once the debate opens and

sparks start flying. 




MATTHEWS:  Are you saying they`re colluding? 


ALLEN:  Collusion – collusion is a strong word, but they have a lot of

overlap in terms of the people that have supported them over a long period

of time, as Adrienne said, as you have said.


MATTHEWS:  No, are they working together?


ALLEN:  They are friends.


MATTHEWS:  Wait a minute.  You`re saying…


ALLEN:  I don`t think they`re – I…


MATTHEWS:  John, you`re saying they have a strategy of not attacking each

other.  How did that develop, if they didn`t talk with each other? 


ALLEN:  I don`t think they have to sit down and work on the strategy for it

to happen.  I think they can signal that to each other. 


I think they have been signaling that to each other.  And I would be

surprised if you saw very aggressive attacks against each other.  Elizabeth

Warren is not going to sit there and call Bernie Sanders a flaming

socialist.  She is not going to have Mitch McConnell or Donald Trump

language against him. 


MATTHEWS:  Oh, yes? 


ALLEN:  Bernie Sanders is not going to attack Elizabeth Warren as being a

corporate centrist.  You`re just not going see that. 




Let`s talk about the other people that are fighting for survival. 


Adrienne, a couple of these people aren`t going have 2 percent by



ELROD:  Yes. 


MATTHEWS:  There are some struggling about zero. 


ELROD:  Mm-hmm. 


MATTHEWS:  It seems – will they take wild shots at the front-runners



ELROD:  Look, I think, Chris, you are going to have to see some Hail Marys

tonight from candidates like…. 


MATTHEWS:  Like Swalwell last time? 


ELROD:  Like Swalwell last time.


MATTHEWS:  When he said, pass the torch to me?


ELROD:  Hopefully not that awkward.




ELROD:  But I think you will see folks like Tim Ryan, John Delaney, they`re

going to have to really get out there tonight and show why they`re in this

race, why they deserve to be on that third debate stage, because, of

course, Chris, we know that the threshold requirements for the third debate

have essentially doubled over the threshold requirements for the first two



So, right now, you do have folks like John Delaney, Tim Ryan who have not

qualified yet.  I think Beto did say that he qualified.  Amy Klobuchar has

announced that she has qualified for the third debate. 


But you will see some folks, I think, who have to have some viral moments

to an extent tonight in order to justify staying in the race. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, according to a new Morning Consult poll, former Vice

President Joe Biden maintains his lead at 33 percent among Democratic

voters, with Bernie Sanders at 18 percent.  Senator Warren comes in third

at 13, Harris, Kamala Harris, at 12, Mayor Pete Buttigieg at 5 percent.


And both Beto O`Rourke and Senator Cory Booker are polling at 3 percent. 

All other candidates received 2 percent or less. 


Jon, one of these candidates who are officeholders, who are members of the

Congress or U.S. senators, don`t they face filing deadlines, where, if they

don`t get back to the job they hold and compete for them, they may lose

what they have already politically?


ALLEN:  Yes, I think there are two factors, Chris. 


One is when you run out of the money that keeps the campaign plane flying. 

That`s one thing that gets people out of races.  And the other is if

they`re embarrassing themselves, to the point where they make themselves

vulnerable because they`re not doing their jobs or vulnerable because

they`re showing to people in their own party that they might be primary-

able in their next election. 


Senator Kirsten Gillibrand in New York has got to worry about that.  She

has got six years, five years until her next election, but certainly a lot

of Democrats in New York would like that seat next time. 


MATTHEWS:  Let me go back to Adrienne on this question. 


The luck of the draw can embarrass everybody, including the DNC.  All the

10 candidates tonight are Caucasians.  That was an accident. 


ELROD:  Yes. 


MATTHEWS:  Is that going to make for an awkward night for the moderators,

for the candidates, with a party that really prides itself in its

diversity, as opposed to the Republican Party, which wouldn`t mind being

like that, probably?


ELROD:  Yes, look, I don`t think it`s ideal in the drawings that you

actually have 10 people on the stage tonight, all of them are white. 


But I do think that – I don`t think it`s going to be that awkward.  It is

just what it is.  And I do think, by the way, Chris, that race will play a

major role in this debate because of Donald Trump`s comments over the past

two weeks, particularly on the Squad and, of course, insulting Elijah

Cummings and talking about Baltimore. 


MATTHEWS:  Thank you. 


ELROD:  Thank you. 


MATTHEWS:  Thank you for being so tall. 


ELROD:  Thank you.  I feel very tall right now. 


MATTHEWS:  You`re so tall.


Anyway, Adrienne Elrod, thank you. 


And, Jonathan Allen, Jonathan, thank you. 


Up next:  Will John Ratcliffe do to the intel agencies what Barr did to the

Justice Department, turn them into Trump operations? 


You`re watching HARDBALL. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


There are new signs today that President Trump`s nominee for director of

national intelligence, U.S. Congressman John Ratcliffe of Texas, may not be

a slam dunk for the job – top job overseeing the country`s intelligence



“The Washington Post” notes that Ratcliffe has only received tepid support

from key Republicans, an early indication that he might not sail smoothly

to confirmation. 


According to “The Post”`s analysis, Ratcliffe has significantly less

experience than former directors, who each had backgrounds in intelligence,

foreign service or the military.


In contrast, Ratcliffe is a three-term congressman who served briefly as a

U.S. attorney down in Texas. 


Additionally, NBC News reports that, although Ratcliffe`s Web site says he

put terrorists in prison, there`s no evidence he ever persecuted –

prosecuted a terrorism case in his life. 


And during his career in Congress, Ratcliffe has distinguished himself

through his attacks on the Obama administration and allegations of

impropriety at the FBI and DOJ.  Here he goes. 




REP. JOHN RATCLIFFE (R-TX):  I`m of the opinion that, for the last eight

years, we have survived the worst presidency of my lifetime. 


We learned today about information that, after – in the immediate

aftermath of his election, that there may have been a secret society of

folks within the Department of Justice and the FBI. 


There was a direct pipeline into the DOJ, essentially from the Democratic

National Committee and Fusion GPS that is troubling. 


What I do know, as a former federal prosecutor, is, it does appear that

there were crimes committed during the Obama administration.


One candidate for president of the United States had commissioned and paid

for the central piece of evidence being used to seek a warrant to spy on an

associate of the other candidate for president of the United States.


Americans need to know this as they listen to the Democrats and socialists

on the other side of the aisle as they do dramatic readings from this





MATTHEWS:  Well, it`s no surprise that Ratcliffe appears to have drawn

Trump`s attention because of his television appearances, according to “The

Washington Post.” 


Now Trump is saying it will be Ratcliffe`s job to rein in American

intelligence agencies, the very thing that critics fear a partisan director

might try to do. 


Here is the president on this today:





is going to do an incredible job, if he gets approved.  He`s got to get

approved.  But I think he will do a great job. 


I hope he gets approved.  I think we need somebody like that there.  We

need somebody strong that can really rein it in, because, as I think you

have all learned, the intelligence agencies have run amok.  They have run





MATTHEWS:  Well, those remarks from Trump today suggest that the president

views Ratcliffe as a loyal soldier in his ongoing war against U.S.

intelligence agencies. 


The question now is whether Republicans in the U.S. Senate will stand for

it or whether they will finally break with the president on this issue. 


That`s coming up next.  You`re watching HARDBALL. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


Congressman Ratcliffe`s partisan baggage and lack of experience has earned

him a cool reception from members of the president`s own party. 


“The New York Times” reports today that, in private conversations, several

Republican U.S. senators said they wanted to keep the intelligence post

apolitical, and that Mr. Ratcliffe will need to show he can move beyond the

die-hard conservative persona that has made him a star in the House and on

FOX News. 


I`m joined right now by two people that can talk about this, Democratic

Congressman Denny Heck of Washington, who is on the House Intelligence

Committee.  And Elise Jordan is with “TIME” magazine. 


Congressman, why is the president picking Boo Radley to be head of national





REP. DENNY HECK (D-WA):  I don`t think…


MATTHEWS:  This guy is a total partisan hack.  Your thoughts? 


HECK:  Well, Chris, first of all, I think it`s important that nobody

underestimate John`s native intellectual prowess.  This is a smart guy. 


But he has, in fact, two very hard questions to answer.  House members

don`t have advise and consent, but if I were in the Senate, here are the

two hard questions he has to answer.  Number one, how are you qualified to

do this job? 


It`s important to remember that the statute that created the Office of

National Intelligence specifically requires that the director have

extensive experience.  Seven months on the Intelligence Committee does not

constitute extensive experience. 


And the second question is, what is the evidence that he can speak truth to

power?  If ever there were a position in the federal government where we

know it is important for the occupant to speak truth to power to the

president, it is this one. 


They must be cold-blooded, clear-eyed and dispassionate in their assessment

of our national security issues and intelligence issues.  We do not need a

cheerleader.  We do not need, frankly, another Bill Barr at the head of

DNI, period. 


MATTHEWS:  Elise, that`s the same thing I would think.  I have been

thinking it all day, which is, he got Bill Barr to take control of the

Justice Department, to distort the Mueller report, and smother it up,

basically, so it was – hurtful, damage he did to it in terms of its impact

when it finally came out by redacting everything. 


He had a political officer over – covering up what is, in fact, a

nonpolitical job, which is reporting the truth. 


Is he doing the same thing to our intelligence agencies by putting them

under the control of a total political partisan? 



another example of Donald Trump taking a position that used to be

apolitical and a national security position that was supposed to be above

politics, and he is trying to install someone who is going to tell him what

he wants to hear. 


And you look at how President Trump has been upset and commenting on Fox

News` programming in days of late.  He is upset he can`t program Fox News. 

He certainly does not want to hear dissenting opinion from his chief

intelligence officer, and that`s a big problem when you need someone with

analytical rigor who indeed is going to speak truth to power. 


MATTHEWS:  Congressman, do you truth this guy, your colleague, to give an

honest presidential briefing each day? 


REP. DENNY HECK (D-WA):  So I don`t know John that well, despite the fact

that I served on Intel Committee. 


In fact, quick funny story, Chris.  I got on to the elevator at the

apartment building I live in late last year, and there was a fellow

standing there in a suit with a congressional security pin on.  I didn`t

recognize him at all.  I found myself saying, I`m sorry, I don`t know who

you are.  And he said, I`m John Ratcliffe from Texas. 


So I really don`t know him that well.  I – based on any observations I had

on his performance in the Intel Committee, and thus far appears or the more

of a cheerleading role than it is of a dispassionate assessment of the

facts at hand.  But then again, what I think he`s been doing is auditioning

for the job. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, when he made that comment the other day about the

Democrats and the socialists and it was meant to be a serious inquiry, he

threw out the cheapest – one thing to call the Democratic Party the

Democrat Party.  They do that instinctively.  But to refer to the Democrats

as the Democrats and the socialists seems like in addition to Trump.  This

guy is going to play hardball against the Democrats. 


JORDAN:  He`s debating Democrats and socialism, that isn`t exactly the kind

of national security heft that one would hope to see in a person filling

this position.  I just think back to the first director of national

intelligence, John Negroponte, and his extensive experience in national

security as an ambassador posted all across the globe.  He had just been

posted in Baghdad and had been the first real ambassador posted there in

the aftermath of Paul Bremer and played such an important role dealing with

the intel community, the military community, and of course, his role as a



And I think if someone like John Negroponte, comparing them to Congressman

John Ratcliffe is really a tough haul. 


HECK:  Well, Elise is spot on, because it`s not just John, Ambassador

Negroponte.  Every director of national intelligence since has had far more

national security and intelligence service and experience than Congressman

Ratcliffe has. 


MATTHEWS:  Do you think, Congressman, that he is going to pursue as DNI if

he gets the job, that he`ll pursue these theories about the beginnings of

the Mueller investigation? 


HECK:  I don`t think the DNI is the position from which to do that

necessarily.  I think it`s more over at DOJ.  But who knows.  I think if

history is prologue, that he is going to do and say whatever it is that

thinks the president wants him to do.  I hate to use the tortured analogy

or metaphor, but it`s kind of like asking how high when the president says

jump on the way up. 


MATTHEWS:  Yes.  Well, meanwhile, the first Democratic TV to capitalize on

the Mueller hearings was launched today.  Let`s take a look. 




REP. JERRY NADLER (D-NY):  Did you actually totally exonerate the





REP. VAL DEMINGS (D-FL):  Isn`t it fair to say that the president`s written

answers show that he wasn`t always being truthful? 


MUELLER:  Generally. 


REP. KEN BUCK (R-CO):  Do you believe that you could charge the president

of the United States of obstruction of justice after he left office? 




REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA):  The campaign welcomed the Russian help, did they





SCHIFF:  And then they lied to cover it up? 


MUELLER:  Generally, that`s true. 




MATTHEWS:  Well, that ad, which was run by billionaire candidate Tom Steyer

comes as a number of Democrats favoring the impeachment inquiry has gone up

to 113, according to NBC News. 


Elise, isn`t it interesting that the highlight reel, which that ad was

based on of the Mueller testimony packs a lot more power than watching it

all day that day? 


JORDAN:  Why did it take so long to get that ad cut is the question that I

would pose to Democrats when the first opening of it was Congressman Nadler

and what he managed to accomplish just in the opening questioning of Robert

Mueller?  And so, it`s kind of surprising to me that such an obvious video

to make took a while.  But it`s great that the truth is getting out there,

that Donald Trump was indeed not exonerated. 


MATTHEWS:  Congressman, tell me why you decided to come out for the

impeachment inquiry at this point?


HECK:  So, Chris, you know, it was one thing to read the report, which I

did, in fact more than once.  And it was another thing to talk with my

colleagues and my constituents and to listen to their concerns.  But I

cannot exaggerate to you the impact it had on me to actually sit through

that hearing, hear directly from Director Mueller, have the opportunity to

ask him questions, and to hear my colleagues ask him questions. 


I frankly was plunged, and I use that word advisedly, into a state of deep

reflection and contemplation on all that I had heard –


MATTHEWS:  I lost you there. 


Anyway, I want to thank – go ahead.  I want to thank Congressman Denny

Heck of Washington and Elise Jordan. 


I do think this guy Ratcliffe bears a resemblance to Boo Radley of

literature because being spooky is not a good reputation to have to become

a spook.


Up next, Trump`s divisive racial language is almost certain to be a topic

of discussion in tonight`s debate here in Detroit.  NAACP President Derrick

Johnson is going to join us to talk what he`d like to hear coming from the



That`s next here on HARDBALL.







And I`ll tell you what.  The White House and myself and letters and emails

and phone calls have received more phone calls than I think on any other

subject of people from Baltimore and other cities corruptly run by

Democrats thanking me for getting involved. 


Those people are living in hell in Baltimore.  They`re largely African

American.  You have a large African American population, and they really

appreciate what I`m doing. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.


President Trump today continued his racially divisive rhetoric against

Congressman Cummings and the city of Baltimore.  The president sees it as a

winning strategy apparently for him heading into 2020.  In considering it

doesn`t look like House Democrats are going to impeach him any time soon,

the only way to get this president out of office will be at the ballot box

next year. 


Well, tonight and tomorrow, all eyes will be on the debate stage here as

voters try to figure out who has the best chance to defeat President Trump. 


For more, I`m joined now by Derrick Johnson, president and CEO of the



Mr. President, thank you for joining us. 


You know, I`ve followed politics a long time.  And when someone of either

party of any background, ethnically or racially makes a mistake and offend

the community, they usually apologize and move on.  This president is

doubling down, tripling down on his insults of people of color and cities

where there is a large population of minorities.  He keeps doing it. 


Your thoughts?


DERRICK JOHNSON, NAACP PRESIDENT & CEO:  Well, he`s used his effectively as

a distraction tactic.  Prior to the Mueller hearing, he told the four

congresswomen to go back where they came from.  It dominated the media

headlines during a time when the media should have been talking about the

Mueller testimony and what came out that testimony. 


Following the testimony, he went back to the same type of tactic to

distract and drown out the substance of realities that he was a part of a

foreign nation`s interference with our election process, and Mueller said

clearly that he should be prosecuted if he – as soon as he walk out the

White House, he should be prosecuted.  And we as NAACP, our delegates spoke

loud, that Congress needs to start the articles of impeachment because this

president has committed some serious crimes. 


MATTHEWS:  Let me ask you about the Democrats tonight.  Do you believe they

should address Trump on this regard, on impeachment, on his racist

reputation now?  Where would you like to see them put their remarks tonight

in the next couple of hours? 


JOHNSON:  Well, I think the candidates who are offering themselves up for

office should really focus on the policy options that they`re going to

present to the American people if they are selected.  I think voters should

have an opportunity to understand through all of the noise of the moment

what opportunities that these candidates will present if selected as the

nominee for their parties.  If I was a candidate on that stage, I`d be

focused on the serious issues around health care, access to quality

education, and all of the policy things that the American public is

concerned about. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, Mr. Johnson, in the latest Quinnipiac poll just out today,

former Vice President Joe Biden has a commanding lead among African-

American voters.  A majority 53 percent said they would vote for Biden. 

That`s more than double the support of any of the candidates combined. 


What`s happening? 


JOHNSON:  Well, I think that`s more of a measurement of name ID.  He was a

sitting vice president for eight years.  He walked into the space with a

tremendous advantage.  As we begin to narrow down the field and more

candidates are able to penetrate that message, we will see that to close. 


But in addition to that, that`s a nationwide poll.  The only polls that

really matter are in the battleground state.  Will he be age to resonate in

the early primaries such as South Carolina and many of the Deep South

states?  Will other candidates, will they be able to penetrate their



So, it is very early.  If you think about 2007 at the same time, no one

thought President Obama had an opportunity.  So we should look at this race

in that context and not assume anything so early. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, President Trump`s criticisms of conditions in Baltimore,

the city of Baltimore are similar to those he made about black

neighborhoods during the 2016 election.  Just after he won that election,

the president credited those types of remarks with helping to diminish

return of black voters.  Watch him here. 




TRUMP:  Remember the famous line, because I talk about crime.  I talk about

lack of education.  I talk about no jobs. 


And I`d say what the hell do you have to lose, right?  It`s true.  And

they`re smart and they picked up on it like you wouldn`t believe. 


And you know what else?  They didn`t come out to vote for Hillary.  They

didn`t come out.  And that was big.  So thank you to the African-American





MATTHEWS:  Do you think it`s reasonable to assume that his derogatory

language about big cities across the country, many of them with large

minority populations will depress the morale of the black voter so they

won`t show up? 


JOHNSON:  Well, you know, it`s a scenario where we see 2016, the party that

put change on the ballot and won, I don`t believe the Democratic Party put

change on the ballot.  And in addition to that, if you look at the city of

Detroit we had in the neighborhood of 28,000 voters who went to the polls. 

And at 80 percent African-American city, which happens to be my hometown,

and they didn`t vote for the top of the ticket. 


That was not about an indictment or support for Trump.  That`s the lack of

attention paid to the base vote.  And for African-Americans in neither

party at any given particular time really treat African-American voters

with the type of focus that African-Americans should be treated with.


If African-American vote turnout is up, that means one thing.  If it`s

down, it means another thing.  The real question for candidates who offered

themselves up for the presidency, do you respect the black vote?  Because

it will be the black vote that determines the outcome of this election. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, let me talk Turkey with you for just one second.  It seems

one reason the vote went down although up in the city because you had an

African-American president running in `12 and `08.  And in `16, you didn`t. 


Do the Democrats have to put someone of color on the ticket next year? 


JOHNSON:  Well, I don`t know if that`s the case.  I thought the Democrats

need to get to the city and talk to the voters.  That did not happen in

destroy.  That didn`t happen in Milwaukee until it was too late. 


Hillary Clinton did not spend enough time with black voters in major cities

in these key cities. 


MATTHEWS:  OK.  We have to go.  Thank you so much, the head of the NAACP,

Derrick Johnson. 


Stay with us.  You`re watching HARDBALL.


JOHNSON:  Thank you. 




MATTHEWS:  I`ll be back at 10:30 for post-debate coverage. 









Copyright 2019 ASC Services II Media, LLC.  All materials herein are

protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced,

distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the

prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter

or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the