Trump launches new feud. TRANSCRIPT: 7/29/19, Hardball w/ Chris Matthews.

Donna Edwards, Eli Stokols, Michael Steel, Katrina Mulligan, Katrina Mulligan, Michael Eric Dyson



YASMIN VOSSOUGHIAN, MSNBC HOST:  That does it for me.  Rest easy.  Ari will

be back tomorrow.  You can catch mornings on “THE FIRST LOOK” at 5:00 A.M.



“HARDBALL” with Chris Matthews starts right now.


CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  Charm offensive.  Let`s play HARDBALL.


Good evening.  I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.


Tonight, the President of the United States continues to disown and insult

America`s cities.  Trump`s latest target, Baltimore, Charm City to its

proud citizens.  And insulting Baltimore as a rat-infested mess, Trump is

making racial division, a core element of his re-election campaign.


And today, he continued his incendiary attacks on yet another prominent

elected official of color, Baltimore`s Congressman Elijah Cummings,

Chairman of the House Oversight Committee.  In an early morning Tweet

Saturday, Trump blasted Cummings` criticism of the treatment of migrant

children at the southern borders saying, his Baltimore district is far

worse and more dangerous.  The President called Cummings` district a

disgusting rat and rodent-infested mess, adding if he spent more time in

Baltimore, maybe he would help clean up the very dangerous and filthy



The President later stated no human being would want to live there.  He`s

talking about Baltimore.  He also shrugged off criticism that his own

attack was racist Tweeting, if racist Elijah Cummings would focus more of

his energy helping the good people of his district and Baltimore itself,

perhaps progress could be made and fixing the mess that he has helped to



Well, the latest attack on Mr. Cummings comes just two weeks after

President Trump Tweeted that a group of minority congresswomen, three of

them born in the USA, should go back to the crime-infested countries they

came from.


Well, The Baltimore Sun responded to the President`s latest broadside (ph)

towards Cummings and their city in a a scathing editorial headline, it`s

better to have a few rats than to be one.  Writing, Mr. Trump sees

attacking African-American members of congress as good politics as it both

warms the cockles of the white supremacists who love him and causes so many

of the thoughtful people who don`t to scream.


But after a weekend of targeting Cummings and Baltimore, Trump expanded his

attacks this morning to the Reverend, Al Sharpton, founder of the National

Action Network, of course, and my colleague ahead of a press conference by

the civil rights activists in Baltimore.  The President wrote, Al is a

conman, a trouble making, always looking for a score, adding he hates

whites and cops.


Well, Reverend Al Sharpton, President of the National Action Network and

Host of PoliticsNation and my colleague here on MSNBC joins me now.


Well, you are in the crossfire.  In fact, you may be in the crosshairs,

Reverend.  What do you make of that?  Because he`s given you a platform to

talk to the President of the United States on equal ground right now

because that`s where he`s going.


REV. AL SHARPTON, MSNBC HOST:  I think what he is clearly doing is deciding

that he is going to have a race-based campaign by going after high-profile

blacks and others of color.  Certainly by calling Elijah Cummings a racist

then all of a sudden, I hate whites, yet he says he`s been knowing me 25

years, he`s come to National Action Network`s conventions, even though

we`ve disagreed with him, it shows a lack of intellect that he calls

everybody a racist from Elijah Cummings, to me, to the Squad, as they`re

called, they`re anti-Semites.


And you really have to ask yourself, is this the kind of conduct we expect

out of the President of the United States?  If the President really felt

that Elijah Cummings was a racist, he would say how.  If he really thought

I was a Racist, then why did he come to my conventions?  Why did he call me

after he won the election and invite me to meet with him?


So I think that we really have to resist taking the bait and really raise

the issues that we continue to raise on income inequality and healthcare

and the things that matter to Americans, which is why the former Republican

Chairman Michael Steele and I were in Baltimore today talking about the

erosion of black home ownership.  We were there trying to take care of

things that the President ought to be concerned about, rather than trying

to name-call Elijah Cummings, me, or anyone else.


MATTHEWS:  Well, in his testimony before Congressman Cummings` Oversight

Committee in February, Trump`s former lawyer, Michael Cohen, testified to

what he swore under oath with the President`s private comments about

African-Americans and cities.  Here it goes.




MICHAEL COHEN, TRUMP`S FORMER LAWYER:  Mr. Trump is a racist.  He once

asked me if I could name a country run by a black person that wasn`t a

(BLEEP).  This was when Barack Obama was President of the United States. 

And while we were once driving through a struggling neighborhood in

Chicago, he commented that only black people could live that way.  And he

told me that black people would never vote for him because they were too





MATTHEWS:  Why do you think he wants a political race war?


SHARPTON:  I think that he really doesn`t know any other way.  You know,

for many years, we have fought him from Central Park Five where he tried to

get the death penalty for five young black and brown men that were proven

innocent all the way to his own discrimination.  And people kept saying,

well, given the benefit of the doubt.  You know I toured with Newt Gingrich

and others that I`ve disagreed with, but it was never this kind of racial

rancor back and forward.


And for his own lawyer, who set up meetings with me and Trump to say he was

a racist and what he would say in private shows that, at his core, this is

how he feels about people of color, particularly blacks.  And the way he

tries to fight back is accuse us of things that he himself have a deep-

seeded feeling for.


Remember now, Chris, we had a shooting last night at a festival.  He wakes

up this morning and he deals with attacking me rather than dealing with the

shooting.  We need a president that`s going to be responsive to the needs

of the people in this country and not this demagoguery.


MATTHEWS:  When we grew up, you and I – I`m a bit older than you, but I

remember it, maybe not as vividly as you did, George Corley Wallace of

Alabama.  And he – even he would hedge his language a bit.  He would talk

about pointy-headed bureaucrats with their attach‚ cases with peanut butter

sandwiches in them.  And he`d make fun of bureaucrats and talked about

outside agitators.  But this guy is personal.  He calls people by name.


SHARPTON:  Very personal.


MATTHEWS:  He gets people – African-American people.  He names them the

squad.  The knows their names.  He calls them out.  Who is he trying to get

to like him with this stuff?


SHARPTON:  I think he underestimates the intelligence of the American

people.  I think that many independent voters, many moderate voters, even

in the Republican Party are not going to go for this.  But he feels that if

he causes this racial divide that he can stack up enough electoral votes to

win.  And I think he`s going to see a massive resistance in that.  Every

black with a high profile is not a racist.  Donald Trump is not a race.  To

disagree with him does not make you a racist.  It means you disagree with

Donald Trump.  And I think that people are smart enough and intelligent

enough to know that.


MATTHEWS:  Well, a man who thought the same thing was Frank Rizzo, the

former Mayor of Philadelphia when I grew up.  And you know what he did?  He

escalated the black registration beyond the white registration.  There are

so many blacks registered, he was finished.  Maybe Trump will do the same

thing.  He`ll the best registrar of black voters in history perhaps in a

weird perverse way.  What do you think?


SHARPTON:  I think so.  I think that what will is that America will reject

him even in a good economy, because rather than govern, he is too busy

demagoguing and trying to scapegoat people for his own lack of ability to

really bring the country together and deal with things that are real and

continue a wave that Barack Obama had brought this country on.


MATTHEWS:  My colleague, it`s an honor to have you on, sir.  Thank you,

Reverend Al Sharpton.


SHARPTON:  Thank you, Chris.


MATTHEWS:  On the defense, which is a good place to be with Trump, be on

the defensive.


SHARPTON:  The only defense – the only defense because Donald Trump is

staying on offense.  He`s got the right one.  If he wants to fight, he can

come to me first any time.


MATTHEWS:  And not just for lunch.  Anyway, thank you, Reverend.


Anyway, the President`s aides reportedly see an advantage in the racially

divisive attacks that started with his assault on the four progressive

congresswomen known as the squad, telling them to go back to their

countries, wherever that was supposed to be.


According to The Washington Post, Trump`s advisers have concluded after the

previous Tweets attacking those four congresswomen that the overall message

sent by such attacks is good for the President among his political base,

resonating strongly with the white working-class voters he needs to win re-

election in 2020.


Joining me right now to analyze that thought, Eli Stokols, White House

Reporter for The Los Angeles Times, Donna Edwards, former Maryland

Democratic Congresswoman, and The Washington Post Contributing Columnist.


Donna, your columns are great.  I want to know what you think about Trump

just numerically.  I think, look, there are a lot of racial problems in

this country to this day.  They haven`t gone away.  They won`t go away in

our lifetime completely.  But I don`t think many suburban people want to be

known as racists.  I don`t think – working people don`t want to be known

as racists.



with that.  And I think the President has wrongly calculated, but, frankly,

it`s his own calculation that his pathway to victory is to rally his base

to do the race baiting in the hopes that that will gin them up and that

that will be his pathway to victory.  It`s actually a big mistake.  One,

those suburban voters.


But there was really low voter turnout in Detroit and in Milwaukee.


MATTHEWS:  And Philly.


EDWARDS:  We`ve seen Philadelphia –


MATTHEWS:  A little better.


EDWARDS:  A little better.


MATTHEWS:  We both watched Meet the Press yesterday.  Who are we kidding?


EDWARDS:  And so, really, you know, he is going to end up energizing black

voters, people of color all across the country who are opposed to this



And suburban voters, college-educated voters, middle-class working people,

this is not their game.  They`re concerned about the economy, their

pocketbooks, but not about this.  So he`s made a really foul calculation.


MATTHEWS:  Eli, what about the White House staffers who are saying they

think he knows what he`s doing?  I get a feeling they`re just covering him.



look at what happened today, and you get a sense they are trying to course-

correct in a big way.  This afternoon, 2:00, what do you know?  There`s an

unscheduled event with inner city pastors at the White House.  That was not

on the schedule that went out earlier in the week.


MATTHEWS:  That`s a statement.


STOKOLS:  Just a couple of hours ago, Trump is Tweeting his praise for a

candidate in Kentucky, an Attorney General candidate, happens to be



I mean, you know – and he addressed yesterday morning in a Tweet the

allegation that this is racist.  He said it`s not racist to basically said

what I said, but he`s aware of this.  He`s obviously been told that this

has gone too far.  This has touched a nerve.


But yet at the same time, you know, he`s trying to have it both ways.  He`s

not going to apologize, as we`ve seen all day.  He`s doubled down and

tripled down with what he says, not just about Representative Cummings, but

about Reverend Sharpton.  And he`s going on and on.  He`s not going to

admit, you know, that he`s wrong on this, because, again, he does believe

he has to animate that base.  And one way to do it, especially when it`s

not clear, if you`ve really delivered economically, the way that for

generations, white politicians have rallied white voters is to play that

race card and drive that wedge.


MATTHEWS:  There`s always a limit.  There`s always – you run out of them. 

There is not enough of those angry people.


Anyway, President Trump`s use of the word infested to describe Congressman

Cummings` Baltimore district is part of a pattern the President typically

only uses to refer to minority communities.  After Georgia Congressman John

Lewis, who represents Atlanta, said Trump was not a legitimate president. 

Trump said he should, quote, spend more time on fixing and helping his

district which is in horrible shape and falling apart, not to mention



He later added that Lewis should, quote, focus on the burning and crime-

infested inter cities of the U.S.  And in his initial Tweet, attacking the

four congresswomen of color, he told them to go back and help fix the

totally broken and crime-infested places from which they came.


In an interview Sunday, acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney was

asked about the President`s rhetoric, his word usage.  Let`s watch.




CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS HOST:  Infested.  It sounds like vermin.  It sounds

subhuman.  And these are all six members of Congress who are people of




way too much time reading between the lines.


WALLACE:  I`m not reading between the lines, I`m reading the lines.




MATTHEWS:  Good for Chris Wallace.  I`m reading the lines.  Infested,

infested, infested.  It`s a word.  It`s vermin.  It`s a Hitlerian term.  If

you go back and read gerbils (ph) and all that stuff, it`s all about the

Jews, in that case, it was – his use of the word vermin, infested, he`s

obsessed with this thing about cities.


EDWARDS:  Well, this is the Nazi playbook, right?  I mean, you dehumanize

people.  You say they`re infested.  It gives you the reason to, I don`t

know –


MATTHEWS:  Well, exterminate them or something like that.


EDWARDS:  And I think that this is, again, his way, and he`s done it for

every single one of these cities and what many of these cities have in

common is a majority African-American population, in some cases, African-

American leadership.  And he goes – he goes at them.


MATTHEWS:  You know what I was thinking about?  Maybe I`m broadening this

and letting Trump off the hook for a second, but my producers think so.  I

don`t think so.  People like to live in cities.  My kids love to live in

cities.  They love to live in diverse neighborhoods.  They call them

gritty.  Even formerly your still black neighborhoods and say, I like

living there, it`s gritty, it`s real.  People with money go back into the

cities, you know empty nesters do.


He seems to be attacking the whole metropolitan notion of living together. 

I`m serious.


STOKOLS:  And, you know, it`s one of the reasons why he won, is because

there is an alienation in a lot of these places that so many people have

left.  Jobs have migrated to the cities.  And so you can understand why

Trump has appeal in places that are not urban, in places that have, you

know, seen the population move away.


But I just think if you step back from it –


MATTHEWS:  You mean the inner suburbs?


STOKOLS:  Yes, and the industrial parts of the country and a lot of the

states that he won.  And then people were surprised that he won.


But what`s remarkable is just looking at a president who makes explicit

that he doesn`t think that he is president of the entire country.




STOKOLS:  He is pitting people and regions and subgroups against one

another all the time.


MATTHEWS:  But vividly.


STOKOLS:  And it`s remarkable to hear him say that that congressman should

fix Baltimore, that they should worry about that.  He`s the President of

the United States, but he doesn`t travel to all the places.


MATTHEWS:  And no infrastructure.


STOKOLS:  And he doesn`t speak to the needs of people.


MATTHEWS:  He hasn`t done a thing on the cities.  He hasn`t done

(INAUDIBLE) he promised to do.  He`s going to rebuild JFK Airport.  He was

going to rebuild La Guardia.  He was LAX.  He was going to rebuild all

these hot subways and stuff.


EDWARDS:  And also do things that would not just benefit cities but they`d

also benefit rural areas as well, investing in infrastructure.  The

President has completely abandoned that and he`s decided that his playbook

for 2020 is going to be a race playbook.


MATTHEWS:  I got an advice for Mr. President, which I freely give on this

program publicly.  As David Garth, the great political consultant, democrat

from New York once said, replace the smell of decay with the smell of

construction.  Build.  People will like you of all colors and all parties

if you build.


Thank you, Eli Stokols, thank you, Donna Edwards.


Coming up, the silence is deafening.  Republicans have almost nothing to

say about Trump`s attacks on a congressman of color, including Elijah

Cummings, who`s actually very popular in the United States Congress.  Do

you think their voters like this stuff and are they right?


Plus, the Director of National Intelligence is supposed to be someone who

tells the President what he needs to hear, not what he wants to hear.  And

now, the President is nominating one of his biggest cheerleaders to that



And a new poll shows Biden and Warren getting stronger, especially Biden. 

My thoughts on how that should affect their strategies for this week`s big



Much more ahead.  Stay with us.




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.


President Trump spent the weekend trashing another American city, as I

said, this time, Baltimore.  I used to say, Baltimore.  But does he choose

minority communities to pick on?  You tell me.


By the way, even when Trump says his worst, all his fellow republicans do

is shrug or hide.




MARGARET BRENNAN, CBS NEWS HOST:  No human being would want to live there.


MULVANEY:  When Donald Trump attacks people –


BRENNAN:  This is being perceived as racist.  Do you understand why?


MULVANEY:  I understand why but that doesn`t mean that it`s racist.


GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS HOST:  You condemned the go back Tweets but

you do not condemn these Tweets by the President?


REP. WILL HURD (R-TX):  I wouldn`t be doing those.  I wouldn`t be Tweeting

this way.  But I think they are different.


CHUCK TODD, MSNBC HOST:  That justifies a racial resentment tweet in

response?  Is that presidential leadership? 


SEN. RICK SCOTT (R-FL):  Well, I – I – look, I didn`t – I didn`t do the

tweets, Chuck.  I can`t talk about why he did what he did. 




MATTHEWS:  That was a lot of sound effects before the answer, wasn`t it? 


And there is a good explanation for all of this, of course.  According to

“The Washington Post,” the Trump campaign and Republican officials are

looking to use this type of rhetoric to turbocharge voter enthusiasm, and

Republicans have to go along with it. 


Advisers tell “The Post” the tweets work with the president`s base, and

have prompted them to find ways to fuse Trump`s nativist rhetoric with a

“Love it or leave it” appeal to patriotism ahead of the 2020 election,

while seeking to avoid the overtly racist language. 


Well, they`re not doing that too well.


For more, I`m joined by Eugene Robinson, columnist for “The Washington

Post,” Michael Steel, former spokesman to House Speaker John Boehner. 


John, you`re on defense right now, because I don`t think these are subtle. 


Michael, I don`t think these are subtle.  I do think they are direct and

ethnic, racial, if you will. 




MATTHEWS:  Why is Trump doing it? 


STEEL:  Why is Trump doing it?


MATTHEWS:  Why is your party defending it?


STEEL:  Trump is doing it because Trump has one election left.


And his only way to win that election is to recreate the narrow path that

led to an electoral majority in 2016 by ginning up outstanding support,

oversupport, unprecedented support among older white voters in these

industrial Midwestern states. 


And he believes that these attacks, these politics of resentment does that.


The problem for the rest of the GOP is twofold.  One, they`re getting

vivisected on national television trying to defend this stuff, when it`s

indefensible, and they have to win elections after 2020.


MATTHEWS:  Is Trump the only guy that can get away with this kind of talk? 


STEEL:  Of course.  Trump has always…


MATTHEWS:  Why does he get away with it, and the rest of your party not





STEEL:  Trump is massively popular with the base of the Republican Party. 

That`s not changing.  So the reality that these other elected Republicans

deal with is that.


MATTHEWS:  Gene, your assessment, your cold assessment? 





realpolitik, I guess, or whatever. 


It`s astounding, really.  Where are these principled Republicans?  We were

told there were a few left, you know, Mitt Romney, for example. 


MATTHEWS:  Yes.  Yes. 


ROBINSON:  And, you know, why don`t we hear?


What would it cost them to come out and say – Mitt Romney in Utah, they

don`t like Trump that much in Utah, do they? 


MATTHEWS:  What about the Republican problem of running up, driving up the

inner-city African-American vote, especially, liberal?


STEEL:  Sure. 


MATTHEWS:  Because they don`t like this stuff. 


STEEL:  Right.


MATTHEWS:  The net effect could be negative. 


STEEL:  Well, and that`s the gamble they`re making. 


If you look at the results in the 2016 election, there was the

overperformance by Trump in the rural areas, and Secretary Clinton didn`t

equal the numbers that President Obama got in some of these – in some of





MATTHEWS:  Who could?  First black candidate was president was going to

beat her.




MATTHEWS:  But the other problem is, I think there is a lot of anti-Hillary

attitude in the suburbs.  But this is going to – there`s no Hillary

running this time. 


STEEL:  Right.


ROBINSON:  There is no Hillary running.  Right. 


So you take away the anti-Hillary attitude in the suburbs, and you factor

in the fact that most people, most white people I know in the suburbs don`t

like to be thought of as racist. 


MATTHEWS:  That`s right. 


STEEL:  Of course not. 




MATTHEWS:  They tut-tut, at worst.  They tut-tut, too. 


ROBINSON:  It`s not the way they think of themselves.


MATTHEWS:  They go, oh, not me.


But, anyway, Congressman – and, by the way, they don`t want to be racists. 

Let`s face it. 




MATTHEWS:  Congressman Cummings came to the defense of Republican

Congressman Mark Meadows earlier this year in a major moment.  In February,

Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib accused Congressman Mark Meadows to – quote –

“a racist act.”


And Congressman Meadows, who was upset by the comment – who wouldn`t be? -

- turned to Cummings, his friend, to defend him. 


Let`s watch that exchange.  It was powerful. 




REP. MARK MEADOWS (R-NC):  My nieces and nephews are people of color. 


Not many people know that.  You know that, Mr. Chairman.  You and I have a

personal relationship that`s not based on color. 


REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D-MD):  Mr. Meadows, you know, and of all the people

on this committee, I have said it and got in trouble for it, that you`re

one of my best friends.  I know that shocks a lot of people. 


MEADOWS:  And, likewise, Mr. Chairman.


CUMMINGS:  Yes, but you are.


And I would do – and I could see and feel your pain.  I feel it. 




MATTHEWS:  Well, today, after two days of silence, Congressman Meadows put

out a statement that actually glossed over much of what Trump said about

his – quote – “best friend,” Elijah Cummings. 


“I am friends with both men, President Trump and Chairman Cummings.  I know

both men well.  Neither man is a racist, period.  Both love America.”


That wasn`t a strong counter to what the president said about his friend.


STEEL:  I think that`s fair. 


But I think that there`s also – leaving aside the genuineness of

Representative Meadows` feelings on this issue, which I think are very

real, he also may someday want to – this goes back to what we were talking

about earlier – he may someday want to run statewide in our home state of

North Carolina, where he`s going to have to win votes in Raleigh, in

Charlotte from these well-educated people.


MATTHEWS:  Will you give me a political – do you have any moral problem

with this stuff? 


STEEL:  Of course I have a moral problem with it. 


MATTHEWS:  I`m asking.


STEEL:  That`s one of the reasons I find the president`s actions and words

to be indefensible. 


MATTHEWS:  It seems to me – this is a little too philosophical, but, of

all people, you will get it.




MATTHEWS:  It seems to me the definition of a conservative, as opposed to a

right-winger or a reactionary, is to try to hold society together. 


STEEL:  Sure.




MATTHEWS:  Because, unless you hold it together, you have revolutions, you

get your head chopped off or something…




MATTHEWS:  You have to – how do you hold society together if you make

people hate each other? 


STEEL:  And this is…


ROBINSON:  Well, you don`t. 


And there is a certain amount of give and take that`s necessary to hold a

society together.  And there is a certain amount of politeness and what

Donald Trump would call political correctness, but, in fact, a lot of not

going around…


STEEL:  Courtesy.




ROBINSON:  … and saying racist things to people.


STEEL:  Yes. 


ROBINSON:  It`s, you know, politeness and just joining – the recognition

that we are a society and we`re in something together and that, if we work

together, we will get further. 




MATTHEWS:  It`s like Churchill keeping national health when he came in, in

the `50s.  It`s like Eisenhower keeping the New Deal.  You make

accommodation to keep society together.  It`s not all a knife fight. 


Anyway, President Trump and his allies have called the Democrats` oversight

authority presidential harassment. 


Congressman Cummings, as head of the Oversight Committee, is overseeing

multiple investigations, of course. 


And when acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney was a member of Congress, he

would frequently demand oversight of the Obama administration.  But now

he`s criticizing Cummings for doing the same job. 





this week was wrong.


Mr. Cummings is spending all of his time on this impeachment inquiry, which

is – we all know is going nowhere. 


So it`s the – Democrats have a chance to actually focus on things that

matter.  Instead, they`re working on scandal. 




MATTHEWS:  Well, during the Obama administration, House Republicans spent

roughly $7 million and held 33 hearings investigating the attack on an

American Consulate in Benghazi. 


Congressman Mulvaney in 2013 told his constituents there were times in our

nation`s past where, if our ambassador was killed, it was cause for going

to war, pumping it up. 




MATTHEWS:  Pumping up…




ROBINSON:  Look, you and I both know there is no president, no presidential

administration that has ever loved congressional oversight.  They never

love the Oversight Committee.


MATTHEWS:  It`s an audit.  Please audit me.


ROBINSON:  Nobody loves it.


But they put up with it, you know, because that`s the way the Constitution

works and those are the powers given to Congress.  And so you put up with

it.  And you provide the documents, you provide the witnesses and you get

past it. 


And so, through gritted teeth, the Obama administration had patience with

the whole Benghazi thing.  This administration will have to, you know, at

the end of things, have patience with this Congress. 


But that`s not in Donald Trump`s… 




MATTHEWS:  Do you think, if Trump were Nixon, he would have burnt the







MATTHEWS:  You think so?  We agree on – and we all agree.  We`re unified

on that theory. 


Thank you, Gene Robinson.  Thank you, Michael Steel. 


Up next:  President Trump finds a hard-core loyalist to take over as

director of national intelligence.  But Congressman John Ratcliffe still

needs to be confirmed by the Senate. 


Why Ratcliffe may be facing an uphill battle in the U.S. Senate – next on







REP. JOHN RATCLIFFE (R-TX):  Americans need to know this, as they listen to

the Democrats and socialists on the other side of the aisle as they do

dramatic readings from this report, that volume two of this report was not

authorized under the law to be written. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


That was President Trump`s new pick for director of national intelligence,

U.S. Congressman John Ratcliffe of Texas, directing a pointed barb at

Democrats during the Mueller hearings last week. 


President Trump announced on Saturday this weekend that Ratcliffe is his

choice to replace Dan Coats, who has been one of the few Cabinet members

willing to stand up to the president. 


In contrast to Coats, Ratcliffe has shown himself to be a partisan foot

soldier for the president.  In fact, just before Mueller`s testimony,

Ratcliffe met with Trump about the job, according to “The New York Times,”

which notes that the hearings just five days later offered the congressman

a chance to essentially audition for the president. 


And during that hearing, Ratcliffe repeatedly accused Mueller of violating

the special counsel regulations because his report didn`t charge the

president, but didn`t exonerate him either. 




RATCLIFFE:  Can you give me an example other than Donald Trump where the

Justice Department determined that an investigated person was not

exonerated because their innocence was not conclusively determined? 



unique situation. 


RATCLIFFE:  OK, well, you can`t.  Time is short.  I have got five minutes. 

Let`s just leave it at you can`t find it, because I will tell you why.  It

doesn`t exist. 


Respectfully, Director, you didn`t follow the special counsel regulations. 

I agree with the chairman this morning when he said Donald Trump is not

above the law.  He`s not, but he damn sure shouldn`t be below the law,

which is where volume two of this report puts him. 




MATTHEWS:  Well, Trump`s choice of that man as his chief intelligence

official has ignited outrage among Democrats at least. 


But according to one report, some Republicans also warned the White House

that he`s too partisan, this guy, for such a sensitive job as DNI, director

of national intelligence. 


And that`s coming up next.  You`re watching HARDBALL. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


President Trump`s decision to nominate loyalist Republican Congressman John

Ratcliffe for director of national intelligence has elicited outrage from



But “The New York Times” reports that there was a degree of apprehension on

the president`s side of the aisle as well – quote – “Some Republicans

privately expressed concern, including Senator Richard Burr, the chairman

of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who cautioned the president`s

advisers that he considered Mr. Ratcliffe too political for the post,

according to people familiar with the discussions.  However, Mr. Trump

disregarded the warning.”


Well, late today, Senator Burr denied that reporting from “The New York

Times” and said – that said Ratcliffe would be too political. 


He also released a statement today: “When the White House submits its

official nomination to the Senate Intelligence Committee, we will work to

move it swiftly through with regular order,” whatever that means.


I`m joined by Jonathan Lemire, White House reporter of the Associated

Press, and Katrina Mulligan, managing director for national security and

national policy at the Center for American Progress. 


Jonathan, what does that mean, by the way, by the chairman?  I respect Burr

a lot.  I think he`s sort of from the old school of senators who worked

together across the aisle, especially on national security issues like



He said it, we will move it through the regular.  Does that mean he`s

voting for this guy or not?  I can`t tell. 


JONATHAN LEMIRE, ASSOCIATED PRESS:  Well, there is actually another update,

Chris.  I can provide some real-time Richard Burr news here. 


He just said in the last hour that he stopped well short of endorsing

Ratcliffe, says he doesn`t know him, and looks forward to getting to know

him, and says clearly more research is needed. 


So he could certainly move to advance the nomination.  It doesn`t

necessarily mean he`s going to vote for him when all is said and done. 


And I think his fate remains uncertain.  There are some Republicans,

particularly those like Collins and Gardner, who are – you know, have

vulnerable seats, who are up for reelection, whose states did not vote for

Donald Trump last time around and may not again, who I think will face some

pressure to not send this nomination forward, to not vote for this nominee. 


There is real concern that Ratcliffe not only is perhaps too partisan, but

doesn`t have the necessary experience for the job. 




LEMIRE:  Let`s reflect back briefly on Dan Coats, who, as you said at the

opening here, was one of the few members of Trump`s national security team,

his Cabinet, who was willing to say no, who was willing to stand up to the

president to try to tamp down, to contradict him on matters like Iran,

North Korea.


And, most memorably, I believe, he`s the one who, in the hours after the

president`s Helsinki summit with Vladimir Putin, when Donald Trump sided

with the Russian leader over his own intelligence agencies, Dan Coats put

out a statement defending those very agencies. 


MATTHEWS:  You know, Katrina, we have a challenge here, because we do count

on our intel people, our G2s, to tell us what the hell is going on in the



And if this guy comes out and says – well, suppose during the 2020

election and the run-up, suppose he does hear about Russian fiddling with

the election, helping Trump.  Do you think he`s going to tell the

Democrats, this guy?



critical question.


And I don`t think we know the answer to that right now.  So far, what we

have seen from him is that he`s been a partisan cheerleader.  And he has no

experience.  He – if he`s confirmed, he would be the least experienced

intelligence – director of national intelligence that we have ever seen. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, here he is, Congressman Ratcliffe of Texas, doing his

audition, attacking Robert Mueller and his investigation just yesterday. 




RATCLIFFE:  The person who learned the most about the Mueller report during

Wednesday`s hearings was Robert Mueller. 


The Mueller report and its conclusions weren`t from Robert Mueller.  They

were written by what a lot of people believe was Hillary Clinton`s de facto

legal team.


It`s really going to be difficult for the Democrats or anyone to rely upon

the findings of a report when they just listen to the man whose name was

difficult for the Democrats or anyone to rely upon the findings of a report

when they just listen to the man whose name was on top of it not have a

command of what was even in it. 




MATTHEWS:  Well, that sounds like Fox.  And he was on Fox yesterday.  He

also claimed that crimes had been committed in the early days of the Russia

probe during the Obama administration.  Let`s watch. 




RATCLIFFE:  What I do knows a former federal prosecutor is it does appear

that there were crimes committed during the Obama administration. 




MATTHEWS:  Jonathan, this is just pure, unalloyed 100-proof stuff you get

from the right wing.  This obsession with this idea that somehow how we

found out about the Russian connection was somehow tainted, therefore, we

shouldn`t have found out about the Russia connection.  It`s illogical. 


We should have found out about the Russian connection and any Americans who

had anything to do with it.  Why do they keep focusing on how we found? 



Chris.  It`s borne from the idea of the fever swamp, the fringes of the

right wing.  But one echoed from the Oval Office.  That this president

looks at every opportunity to undermine the Russia probe, which, of course,

has now reached a conclusion, at least Robert Mueller`s version of it. 


But still it gnaws on Donald Trump.  Any discussion of Russian meddling

back in 2016 or a suggestion that it could happen again in 2020, the

president, according to our reporting, really views it as something that

delegitimizes his victory.  As if you`re saying that he only won in 2016

because he had outside help.  And Coats` departure here also, let`s point

out, this is yet another guardrail gone from this president. 




LEMIRE:  Whether it was Defense Secretary Mattis or the original Secretary

of State Tillerson, even chief of staff John Kelly for a time, there were

people in the administration who would stand up to the president who would

sort of either quietly or loudly disagree with him and sometimes not put

his edicts into action.  We`re seeing that disappear now both on the

foreign policy side like Coats but also domestically within the White

House.  According to our reporting, we have a new story out tonight, there

is no one in the White House who has chided the president that he shouldn`t

have put out these tweets about Elijah Cummings. 


He is his own strategic director.  He is his own communications director

and no one there telling him no. 


MATTHEWS:  And rooms full of enablers. 


Anyway, speaking at the Aspen security forum last year, Intelligence

Director Coats appeared to joke about the president`s reported intention to

invite Vladimir Putin to the U.S.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  We have some breaking news.  The White House has

announced on twitter that Vladimir Putin is coming to the White House in

the fall. 


DAN COATS, DNI:  Say that again. 




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  You – Vladimir Putin coming to the –


COATS:  Did I hear you?  Did I hear you? 










COATS:  That`s going to be special. 




MATTHEWS:  Well, there you go.  There you go. 


According to “The New York Times,” aides of Mr. Trump seized on that

exchange to suggest Mr. Coats was disloyal and should have been fired but

he was shielded by Mr. Pence, a long time protege and former governor of

Indiana.  So, the Hoosier stuck with him.


But here`s the question – Trump doesn`t like that kind of stuff.  He

doesn`t like grown-ups in the room. 



DIRECTOR:  He has proven time and time again that the thing that matters

most to him to him is loyalty to President Trump not the ability or –


MATTHEWS:  Tell me about Coats because he`s leaving now.  You worked for



MULLIGAN:  I did.  I worked at the director of national intelligence during

his tenure.  You know, he had a way of saying, you know, we – we seek

truth, we speak truth.  That was one of the mantras during his tenure. 

And, you know, he was well-respected.  Steady leader of the intelligence

community and somebody who was willing to stand up for the intelligence

community assessments, even when he knew them to be unpopular with the

president and with the president`s staff. 


MATTHEWS:  I love that slogan.  We seek truth, we speak truth.  Good-bye to



Thank you, Jonathan Lemire.  Thank you, Katrina Mulligan. 


Up next, Donald Trump may think his racist rhetoric will fire up his base

and help him get re-elected, but what if it`s firing up the Democratic base

even more? 


Michael Eric Dyson joins us next on HARDBALL.




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.


While President Trump is focused his latest ire on the city of Baltimore,

calling it a disgusting rat and rodent-infested mess, it`s one of several

cities that the president has criticized that seems to follow a familiar

pattern of his.  As “The Washington Post” describes it as an attempt to

undermine a political opponent, the president disparages an entire place,

often in racially insensitive tones. 


Here is the president talking about some of our cities. 





an absolute and total disaster. 


Unemployed African-American youth in cities like Detroit who have become

refugees in their own country. 


Take a look at Charlotte.  Take a look at Baltimore.  Take a look at

Ferguson.  Take a look at what`s happening out on the streets of our inner

cities.  You have city, inner cities that are worse than war zones and more

dangerous than some war zones. 




MATTHEWS:  It`s not just here in the United States that President Trump has

targeted.  He`s targeted them all around the world, including reportedly

calling El Salvador, Haiti and African countries S-hole countries. 


For more, I`m joined by Michael Eric Dyson, Georgetown University professor

and author of “What Truth Sounds Like.”  There is the book. 

Congratulations on the new book. 




MATTHEWS:  Let`s talk about this – this platform that this president`s

given all good people by name, by face, by ethnicity, by race, he`s direct. 


DYSON:  He is. 


MATTHEWS:  He takes African countries.  He takes Latin American countries. 

He`s never going after Norway. 


DYSON:  Right. 


MATTHEWS:  Or Russia. 


DYSON:  Right. 


MATTHEWS:  Or even Japan. 


DYSON:  Right. 


MATTHEWS:  It`s always black or brown.  That`s his name.  That`s his game. 


DYSON:  Well, that`s what he does.  And as you said earlier and

brilliantly, you know, George Wallace was abstract and anonymous.  He

didn`t put a face to the name.  He talked about categories. 


But this president is putting entire categories of people at risk.  He`s

putting the Squad and other Congress people at risk. 


MATTHEWS:  Physically. 


DYSON:  Physically.  I mean, to be assaulted by somebody who is a lunatic

out there on the fringe willing to do his bidding for him.  He`s putting

Elijah Cummings in such a horrible spot.  And here he is a man who has

served valiantly his city, Baltimore. 


I mean, think about Randy Newman song that Nina Simone sang in 1978, think

about Prince writing about Baltimore.  There are ways you can talk about

the complicated configuration of ills that besets that city, as well as the

extraordinary promise and brightness of that city, and yet this president

as the president of the United States of America, guess what?  Baltimore

falls under your bailiwick.  That`s within your sphere.  And you – 




MATTHEWS:  He might want to rebuild the cities like he promised to? 


DYSON:  I mean, my God, how about that?


And, you know, LBJ, not LeBron James, but the president in the 1960s said

if you can convince the poorest white man that he`s better than the

smartest black man, you can pick his pockets.  He said, guess what?  If you

can convince him that he`s better than all of those people, he`ll pick his

pockets for you. 


So I don`t understand why working class white people who have not been

benefitted by the policies and practices of this particular president

continue to believe that he is their man. 


MATTHEWS:  OK.  Here`s a question.  I know Elijah Cummings.  I live in



He is a grown-up, a figure of leadership and respect. 


DYSON:  Yes.


MATTHEWS:  He`s not Adam Clayton Powell.  He`s not a community leader. 

He`s a statewide statesman.  People look up to him that way. 


DYSON:  They admired him.


MATTHEWS:  He could have won the Senate seat if he wanted it, everybody

knows that – 


DYSON:  Right.


MATTHEWS:  – in a state that is mostly white, overwhelmingly white. 


DYSON:  Right.


MATTHEWS:  Why did he pick a guy and treat him like he`s some loud mouth,

you know, ethnic advocate or something there? 


DYSON:  Because he`s making an example.  If he can pick on what he

perceives to be the nicest, even in some people`s viewpoint the most

conciliatory figure, if he can demonize that guy, he works backwards and

then everybody else on a scorched-earth policy is fair game for him. 




DYSON:  So, it`s ingenuous but rather problematic tactic of identifying the

most conciliatory figure within African-American leadership culture, who

says his friend is Mr. Meadows who, by the way, did him no favor when he

drew a false equivalency between Trump and Elijah Cummings.  That was –




MATTHEWS:  That wasn`t a favor to a friend. 


By the way, people when they move to the burbs love their cities.




DYSON:  Why are they here?  Why are they in Detroit?


MATTHEWS:  They root for their cities.  They love their cities. 


DYSON:  The urban culture is there. 


MATTHEWS:  By the way, I think he`s attacking diversity, not just blacks. 

I think he`s attacking people who want to live in that kind of setting.  In

a “New York Times” op-ed, Princeton professor Kevin Kruse used the case –

makes the case that President Trump remains a greater danger to our

political discourse than segregationist Alabama Governor George Wallace was

back in `60s. 


Kruse writes that Mr. Wallace`s targets for the most part were presented in

the abstract, though he denounced broad categories of generic enemies,

agitators, anarchist, communists, he rarely went after an individual by

name.  President Trump in contrast has used his rallies to single out

specific enemies.  Kruse says, participants have been moved to attack

individuals he has called out.  And those attacks ranged from chanting

“lock her up” and “send her back”, the death threats.


I`m telling you, is this president responsible if something breaks out



DYSON:  Absolutely.  I mean, he`s instigating. He`s inciting riots of the

mind, of the spirit, of the soul and now sometimes even physically.  People

have said who have been white supremacists they were stirred up by the

rhetoric of the president or those who are affiliated with him.  So, yes, I

think the professor makes an excellent point. 


It`s one thing to have an anonymous abstract backdrop against which you

pitch your bigoted beliefs.  Not that we`re excoriated – not that we`re

exonerating Mr. Wallace posthumously, but what Trump is doing is so

dangerous because he riles up and gins up the – ratchets up the rhetoric

against them and people are vulnerable because people will go out thinking,

I`m doing the right thing because the president has demonized this person. 

Now, they are fulfilling his –




MATTHEWS:  You`re not a leader of a community, but speak for it.  What is

the reaction in the black community, brown community when they see a

president of the United States who is in charge of the whole country? 


DYSON:  Well, first of all –


MATTHEWS:  Talk like this? 


DYSON:  – they see how abhorrent he is.  They see how ridiculously racist

he is.  But they also see this, where are the good white people who speak

up?  You use your bully pulpit to speak against this every night.  Where

are other people coming – not only coming to the rescue, but coming –


MATTHEWS:  Where is Mitt Romney? 


DYSON:  That`s right.  That this is wrong, because their bodies are not at

stake in the same way.  And thirdly, they miss Obama.  Whatever you say

about Obama, he brought the nation together. 


MATTHEWS:  Where is Susan Collins?  Where is Susan Collins? 


DYSON:  I mean, where are the white politicians who claim to be adherent to

the democratic process in American.  This is anti-patriotic. 


MATTHEWS:  By the way, where is Mike Pence?  Mike Pence can talk. 


DYSON:  Oh my God.


MATTHEWS:  I know it`s an idiotic proposal but he should talk. 


DYSON:  They should say something, but none of them will.  They`re cowards. 

And they are betraying the best traditions of this country.


MATTHEWS:  You`re not, professor.  Thank you, Michael Eric Dyson. 


Up next, what Joe Biden`s debate strategy should be?


You`re watching HARDBALL.




MATTHEWS:  We got a new poll today.  This one from Quinnipiac shows former

Obama Vice President Joe Biden holding very strong at 34 percent, with

Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren in second place at 15 percent. 


And this tells me a couple of things.  One, that Biden should look upon

this week`s debate adds a sparring match.  When he gets attacked by an

opponent, he should use it to show he knows how to mix it up, show he can

defend himself, show he`s the kind of fighter to send into the ring against

Donald Trump. 


Biden should, A, not be surprised by the attack from, whichever the other

candidates it comes.  Not take it personally, handle the punch as a way to

show his fighting ability to take on Trump, and lastly, play defense not

offense.  Why?  Because the best way to win and look good winning is to be

seen defending yourself. 


That`s what FDR did in winning his fourth term.  It`s what Ronald Reagan

did in winning his first, attack from a defensive position.  The country

will root for you. 


Second observation, have you noticed Senator Warren`s rise?  It`s

relentless.  If she keeps going this way, she`ll be up there in the lead

with Biden by the Iowa caucuses in early February.  And she`s doing it by

being positive with a steady dynamic output of policy proposals not by

attacking another candidate. 


Both Biden and Warren are doing the job and no harm to their party`s

chances come November 2020.  They`re following the advice of Winston

Churchill as what not to do. 


If we open a quarrel between past and present he told his party at the

outset of World War II, we shall find we have lost the future. 


That`s HARDBALL for now.  Thanks for being with us. 


“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now. 







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