Latest Trump accuser speaks out. TRANSCRIPT: 6/28/19, Hardball w/ Chris Matthews.

Yamiche Alcindor; Barbara Boxer; Steve McMahon, Charlie Sykes, Suzanne Almeida, E. Jean Carroll

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST:  Obviously, MSNBC is proud to be a part of it. 

Other channels will have their turn.  But tells you this race is well under

way for 2020.


That does it for The Beat.  I`ll see you back here Monday Night at 6:00

P.M.  “HARDBALL” with Chris Matthews starts now.




Good evening.  I`m Chris Matthews back in Washington.  Well, last night,

before a historic television audience, a star was born.  Her name is Kamala



Also tonight, Donald Trump jokes about Russian interference in the election

while sitting with Vladimir Putin.


And later in the show, we`ll meet the woman who has accused Donald Trump of

sexual assault.  Her story was backed up by two friends who say she told

them about the attack at the time it allegedly happened.


First up, the first democratic debates of 2020 are history now, and the

race is now facing a shake-up.  Powered by a dominant performance, Senator

Kamala Harris may have upended the democratic field last night.


In the most searing moment of the night, Harris put the current democratic

frontrunner, former Vice President Joe Biden, on the defensive using her

prosecutorial skills to cut through Joe Biden`s defense of working with

southern segregationist senators back in the `70s.




SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA):  It was hurtful to hear you talk about the

reputations of two United States senators who built their reputations and

career on the segregation of race in this country.  And it was not only

that, but you also worked with them to oppose busing.


And there was a little girl in California who was part of the second class

to integrate her public schools, and she was bused to school every day. 

And that little girl was me.




MATTHEWS:  Well, minutes later, her campaign Tweeted out a picture of her,

there she was, as a young girl in California.


Biden argued her comments were a mischaracterization of his record.  At an

event today, he made a point to address that.




JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT:  I heard and I listened to and I

respect Senator Harris, but, you know, we all know that 30 seconds to 60

seconds on a campaign debate exchange can`t do justice to a lifetime

committed to civil rights.  I want to be absolutely clear about my record

and position on racial justice, including busing.  I never, never, never,

ever opposed voluntary bussing and as a program that Senator Harris

participated in and it made a difference in her life.


I did support federal action to address root cause of segregation in our

schools and our communities, including taking on the banks and red lining

and trying to change the way in which neighborhoods were segregated.  I`ve

always been in favor of using federal authority to overcome state-initiated





MATTHEWS:  Well, last night, Senator Harris said that she respects the

former Vice President and does not believe he is a racist.  But The New

York Times says the confrontation between the two of them could signal a

change in the contest, noting it illustrated both Mr. Biden`s vulnerability

and the urgency his rivals feel to start sowing doubts of his candidacy

with voters.


For more, I`m joined former Democratic Senator Barbara Boxer of California,

Steve McMahon, a democratic strategist, of course, Yamiche Alcindor, White

House Correspondent for PBS NewsHour, and Joy Reid, Host of A.M. Joy,

author of the new book, The Man Who Sold America: Trump and the unraveling

of the American story.  Thank you.  I`ve got Senator Boxer joining us too

right now.  Thank you, former Senator Boxer.


I want to start with Joy Reid on this.  Let me just ask you about your

reaction when you watched it.


JOY REID, MSNBC HOST:  Well, you know, my reaction, first of all, was that

throughout the debate, I thought Kamala Harris came not just to play, but

to win.  She had the strongest strategy.  She was aggressive not just in

going after the current president, but in actually turning to looking Joe

Biden in the eye and going after the very popular former Vice President.


And there are two things that I think this signals as a vulnerability for

Joe Biden.  Number one, it made it very clear that he is a candidate of the

past.  He is a nostalgic candidate.  And the era that Biden and some of his

contemporaries are nostalgic for is an era in which the kinds of

compromises that could be struck between one white leader and another

excluded in a lot of ways people of color.  And it capped Kamala Harris as

that generational hinge that obviously was one of the people who suffered

as a result.


And the second thing is it punctured the idea that Joe Biden would be the

best person to go up against Donald Trump in a debate, because Kamala

Harris threw him off.  He didn`t seem ready for the question.  He didn`t

seem to have an answer prepared.  He had to have known someone was going to

ask, and you would think that someone on his staff would warn him.  The one

black person on that panel, the one black woman, woman of color, if she

asks it, you better have an answer.


The fact that he wasn`t ready for it shakes, I think, some of this idea

that he is this Teflon debater that is going to go at Donald Trump because

he really wasn`t ready for her.


MATTHEWS:  I think there are two issues.  One is his record.  The other is

performance.  I think both were on target last night.


Yamiche, I thought it was a – if I were to write another book of HARDBALL,

I would put the chapter in, because it with us a combination of

prosecutorial skill, which is trained and the personality to go with it. 

So with somebody defending their life and the harm they felt as a young

kid, as a kid who was being bused and also facing the hatred of those who

didn`t want busing.



between Joe Biden and Kamala Harris really went to, I think, the core

issues of the Democratic Party and the issues that are at stake in this

primary.  She is basically saying – first, she started off by saying as

the only black woman on the stage, I want a minute the talk about race and

how to interject in that way.


And then she went and really told a super personal story, looking him dead

in his face saying, listen, you need to hear my pain.  This is the things -

- this is what your generation did to my generation, while Eric Swalwell

was talking about passing the torch.  She was really saying, here are the

consequences of your actions.  You could have hurt me as a little girl.


And I think the idea that now her campaign is trying to ride this momentum,

they were rolling on all sorts of endorsements today from people from Iowa

and South Carolina.  I think what we saw in Senator Harris is someone who

is ready to take on Joe Biden and would be ready to take on President



MATTHEWS:  This was an ambush.  This was planned with the pictures to put

out, the appeals immediately for fundraising help to haul in (ph).  There

was nothing wrong with it.  This is what politics is, surprise attack.


ALCINDOR:  It showed that her campaign was smart and ready for this moment.


MATTHEWS:  Well, in the spin room after the debate, I asked Senator Harris

about Biden`s response to her.




MATTHEWS:  Watching former Vice President Biden, do you feel that he had an

adequate answer to you emotionally, intellectually, historically to what

you were raising tonight?


HARRIS:  I don`t think that he – you know, I would like to hear him

acknowledge what was wrong about a perspective on busing that was a

perspective vote I believe he had at that time.  Busing was part of what

was necessary to integrate the schools of America.  And to then fall back

on, well, what`s the state`s responsibility versus the federal government,

that leaves the need to really address the fact that it was just wrong.


MATTHEWS:  You thought he was hedging?


HARRIS:  Well, I just – we have a different perspective on it.




MATTHEWS:  Senator Boxer, your thoughts about last night`s performance by

your former colleague, Joe Biden.


FMR. SEN. BARBARA BOXER (D-CA):  Well, I think that Kamala, who replaced me

in the Senate, showed what a great debater she is.  But I have to say

something here.  Everyone is dumping on Joe Biden.  It`s happened from day

one.  I haven`t endorsed anyone.  May the best person win.


But I have to say a couple of things here.  Kamala said at one point, it

was a great line, she said, the American people don`t want a food fight. 

They want us to talk about how to put food on the table.  And then she

opened up this very tough fight with Joe Biden, who, in 2019, just won an

award for his lifetime of civil rights, who Kamala invited to come to

California in 2016, and her quote was the Biden family represents the

highest ideals.  So this was planned.  It was an attack.


And the last point I`ll make about busing, because I happen to agree with

Kamala on the issue of busing.  But guess what.  If you go back to the

polls at the time, which The Washington Post just did a story on, listen to

this, only 9 percent of African-Americans supported involuntary busing. 

And overall, only 5 percent of the people did.


So Kamala, looking back on it, she has a personal story.  I believe

everything she said, but she cut deep into the heart of Joe Biden, who is a

good person.  And I think she has opened up a lot of scrutiny on what she

did when she was prosecutor, which I`m sure she is ready for.


But I personally – I just – I`m hoping that we would turn our fire on

Donald Trump.  That`s my view.  I may be in the minority.


MATTHEWS:  Let me go to joy.  Joy, you`re a different generation than me or

the Senator, and I want to ask you about this.  Because I do think it`s one

of those things, in both cases, you had to be there.  You had to be hurt at

six years old in California and to have parents say their white kids can`t

play with you in a situation where you`re hated enough because of your

ethnicity, people don`t want you going to their schools, they don`t want to

go into your schools, have that seared in you.  I asked her last night, do

you still feel that hurt from then?  And she said yes.


Biden, on the other hand, was in a situation where at the age of 29 or 30,

he walks into the U.S. Senate, and I was working back then.  They`re all

segregationists.  The Democratic Party pretending now they weren`t the

segregationist party when a third of them were all segies.  All the

communities were run.  The food in the cafeterias was southern cooking,

grits were everywhere.  It was an unbelievable environment.  And the only

way to get anywhere with those old farts was to deal with them.  And Biden

hasn`t figured out a way to say that.


But Bobby Kennedy had to do the same damn thing.  He had to put up with

those bastards too.  And the way to deal with them was sweet talk them and

drink their bourbon, and he had explained.  But I guess it`s very hard to

explain that the young people of color who has no idea what it was like to

be in that – you had your challenges, of course, like anybody, like Biden

or me, but that that particular challenge was legislative.  You didn`t get

a damn thing done unless you kissed up to these awful people like Eastland. 

Well, what do you think?  They both had experiences that are different. 

Your thoughts, Joy, my friend.


REID:  Very interesting.  Yes, no.  Chris, my friend, it is interesting

that you put it way because you can go all back to FDR who had to deal with

segregationist southern democrats and adjusted the new deal in ways that

African-Americans didn`t benefit from it as much as whites in order the get

it through.  And then you look at LBJ who had to go after his own region. 

He had to go after white southern democrats because, remember, democrats

had a super majority in the House and the Senate.  That history is real.


But I have to tell you, you know, Kamala Harris is only a little older than

my sister.  My sister was bussed.  She was one of the first classes that

was bussed in Denver, Colorado.  And there was such an antipathy to having

little black kids from my little town come into the schools and elementary

schools in white parts of Denver.  But they would have rather – they built

us elementary – I mean, middle and high school to keep us in Montbello. 

They didn`t want us bussed out there.  So I even remember growing up the

antipathy, and Colorado is not Mississippi.  It`s not like this far-right. 

I mean, they`ve had the Klan.


But the bottom line being that the problem that you`re describing, Chris,

is that this is a very generational divide.  At the time that Joe Biden was

practicing politics in his heyday as a legislator, everyone in the room was

white and male.  So whether they were segregationists white and male or

anti-segregationists white and male, they were all male.  They didn`t have

to deal with the diversity within their own caucus to get things done. 

They could do handshake deals among them.  Because at the end of the day,

the worst case scenarios would never redound to them, their kids or their

grandkids, the things that could go wrong if those deals were bad, if the

new deal excluded black people.  They didn`t hurt the Roosevelts.  It hurt

people like me.


And so the reality is now what Congress is is a much more multiracial

caucus inside of the Democratic Party in Congress and out.


MATTHEWS:  Yes, I agree.


REID:  The Democratic Party is the multiracial party.  And is Joe Biden,

who`s heyday was dealing with all the white guys in the room and making

deals, is he the right standard bearer for a very different party where

those interests are very different and where, frankly, younger generations

aren`t going to tolerate handshake deals with people like Eastland.


MATTHEWS:  I want to go back and get Steve McMahon (INAUDIBLE), because I

think your points are right.  And I think today in the days of the old

days, you had to deal with the Eastlands and the people like that and the

McClellans and Fulbrights.  Let`s not forget Fulbright.  He was a



Today, you have AOC.  You have a whole different reality of the democratic

coalition and the power in the coalition has shifted dramatically to

younger people of color, and people to the left, actually.


STEVE MCMAHON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST:  It`s absolutely shifted.  And what I

don`t understand – I agree with everything that everybody has stated

tonight, including Senator Boxer who said democrats need to figure out a

way to beat Donald Trump and not just beat up on each other.


Context matters, and you`re absolutely right, Chris.  When you get to the

Senate and you`re 29 years old and it`s filled with segregationists, that`s

what you have to deal with, not because they`re segregationists but because

they`re senators.  And so Joe Biden did that.  But context matters but so

does recognizing the change in the Democratic Party and the change in our



And he could have easily said it was a different time and I`m not that man

anymore.  He could have said that last night.  He could have said, I made

those decisions based on the information that I had at the time.  And it

was a controversial issue, not just in the white community, but also in the

African-American community at that time.  And I would do things differently



What I don`t understand is why he doesn`t walk away from some of those

things because he could, and he could get the benefit of the doubt because

people like him.  48 percent of African-American voters going into last

night supported Joe Biden for president.


MATTHEWS:  Okay.  I want to go back to Senator Boxer, because part of this

is Joe.  And you know Joe.  Even when he was pretending he was Neil Kinnock

in that absurdity, he was giving that British labor speech about using the

British idiom.  And he never apologized for that.  Is this one time where

he should say, you know what, I shouldn`t have been so friendly with these

guys to work with them against people of color in the case of busing.  I

shouldn`t have made that kind of alliance.  Why does he want to stick to

saying that was the right thing to do now?  He didn`t back off this today,

by the way.  Senator?


BOXER:  Well, I did listen to his speech.  And what he is trying to say is,

overall, he was pushing hard to make sure that everybody could have

fairness and justice and equality.  But it is hard for Joe to say the words

that all politicians hate to say, I was wrong.  And the thing is what saved

him so far, because remember, every single pundit said he is taking too

long to get in the race.  And when he gets in the race, he`s going to go

down.  And when he does his first gaffe, he is going to be gone.  He has

done three or four gaffes.  We don`t know this.


But I would just say this to you.  People know Joe.  So they`re going to

decide.  Are they more annoyed at him because he can`t say I`m sorry or do

they still forgive him as they have so far and say we still think he is the

best one to pull it off?




BOXER:  Now, I think the key will be, and I think there are other panelists

who could talk to this, the African-American voters.  What do they think

about this?  And I think it`s going to be fascinating to see what happens

in the polls to come.  Because they`re a part of his base, a very strong

part of his base.  We have to see what happens.


And guess what?  I don`t know.  I don`t know what`s going to happen.  So I

am standing by.


MATTHEWS:  We have two African-American people and I want to hear from

them.  Joy, first, you`re ready to go.


REID:  Okay, really quickly.


MATTHEWS:  Because I`ve been thinking all night, is this going to be like

Barack Obama was able to beat Hillary Clinton among African-American

voters, because they saw him as a potential winner?  Does Kamala Harris

look like a potential winner to take all the marbles right now?


REID:  The problem is in this scenario you just described, Chris Matthews,

Joe Biden is Hillary Clinton in 2008, not Barack Obama.  This is a

generational divide.  Older African-Americans are four square for Joe. 

They know him.  They are nostalgic for that Obama era.


MATTHEWS:  But do they think now that Kamala can win?  I want to know if

something happened last night.


REID:  That`s exactly it.  Particularly voters – black voters under 50 are

shopping anyway.  And they are now going to look at Kamala Harris and see a

president.  That`s exactly what sunk Hillary Clinton.  This book that I

just wrote, I looked at all the factors that elected Donald Trump.  It was

nostalgia.  So can democrats beat nostalgia with nostalgia or do they need

to beat nostalgia with change?  Last night Kamala Harris is change.  Joe

Biden is nostalgia.  That`s the question.


MATTHEWS:  Totally political, but only the ethnic piece is a political part

of the piece.  Have African-Americans generally took a look last night and

said they saw somebody who can knock the block off of Donald Trump?


ALCINDOR:  I think Senator Harris was already someone that people were

looking at saying she is qualified.  I think last night made her even more

qualified in the eyes of some people.


I will say I`ve talked to some voters who are worried that after Barack

Obama, people got Donald Trump, and they`re worried about whether or not

the nation is ready for that.  But I think that conversation of whether or

not the nation is ready for a woman or an African-American, she put that to

bed last night in a lot of people`s minds because she was able to go after

Joe Biden in such a hard way.


I just also want to quickly say, when we talk about integration, when we

talk about the representation of people of color in the Democratic Party,

those issues are not gone away.  There are schools that are definitely not

integrated that are definitely still a majority white.


So I think there are a lot of people who are looking at us and saying, my

school that I send my child to is still dealing with integration issues. 

The Senate is still only one black woman in the Senate.  She is the only

black woman in the Senate.  So I think when we look at the power shift, the

power is still largely white and male when you look at the Democratic



REID:  That`s right.  And, Chris, can I tell you, last night after the

debate, pull up that video.  Who was crowded around Kamala Harris after

that debate?  Black women.  She was surround by black women.


MATTHEWS:  I did notice that.  And you noticed that last night too, that

physical statement.


REID:  Yes.


MATTHEWS:  There was such a vivid picture last night of Biden putting his

head down when he was being whacked by her.  Why was the he putting his

head down?  What that all about.


Thank you so much.  We`re all trying to figure this thing out.  And I do

agree with Joy most of the time, because I think things are moving in that

direction.  I just think Biden didn`t look like he could beat Trump last

night.  But that younger woman, the prosecutor with a personal story, which

she didn`t have in the earlier fights with Brett Kavanaugh and with Bill

Barr.  This time she had a personal witness to bring to it, not just a

professional.  And I think that gave her the equipment to win last night

like I`ve never seen anybody win.  This is the biggest knockout since Lloyd

Bentsen knocked out Dan Quayle.


Anyway, thank you former Senator Barbara Boxer, Steve Mcmahon, Yamiche

Alcindor, Joy Reid, her new book, The Man Who Sold America: Trump and the

Unraveling of the American Story.


Coming up, President Trump apparently finds Russian meddling in our

elections amusing.  Isn`t that cute, joking about it publicly with his new

pal, well, his old, Vlad, Vlad the Impaler.


Plus, as Robert Mueller prepares to give his first public testimony, one of

Trump`s presidential predecessors, Jimmy Carter, I`ll give it away, says

Trump didn`t actually win the election of 2016.  He got it because of

Russian interference.  Wait until you hear what Jimmy Carter had to say.


Later, E. Jean Carroll, we know her story.  She is going to tell it in

person with us.  She`s a former network colleague of mine who is accusing

Donald Trump of sexual assault, at least a charge he denies.


Much more ahead.




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


President Trump is dropping new hints that he won`t protect the integrity

of this country`s elections, even as we approach 2020.


In a bilateral meeting with Russian leader Vladimir Putin at the G20 summit

over in Japan right now, President Trump actually joked publicly about the

Kremlin`s attack on our democracy in 2016. 


Here`s what he said when asked by NBC whether he would – he could put –

he told Putin – if he told Putin not to meddle in the 2020 election. 

Here`s how he reacted. 




QUESTION:  Mr. President, will you tell Russia not to meddle in the 2020





Don`t – don`t meddle in the election, please.




MATTHEWS:  Well, Trump`s latest comments are reminiscent of his remarks at

Helsinki here last year when he contradicted his own government and denied

Russia`s interference in 2016 directly. 


It also comes after Trump told ABC News this month that, if offered foreign

dirt on a political opponent looking forward, he`d take it. 


But that`s not all.  The president also appeared to commiserate with Putin

by knocking the press as the fake news.  That exchange, which is difficult

to hear, was captured by Russian state TV before the United States media

entered the room. 


Here goes. 




TRUMP:  Fake news, great term, isn`t it?  You don`t have that problem in

Russia.  We have that problem.  You don`t have that problem.


VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT:  Yes.  Yes, we have.  We have it too. 

It`s the same. 




MATTHEWS:  I`m joined right now by David Corn, Washington bureau chief for

“Mother Jones,” and Charlie Sykes, editor in chief of The Bulwark.


Charlie, I don`t think you can capture this in satire.  I don`t think

anybody has seen anything like it. 




MATTHEWS:  Here he is, a guy who grew up like you, he did, in the Cold War,

who knows what the Russians are all about, knows what the KGB is all about. 

They know what Vladimir Putin is coming from. 


SYKES:  Yes. 


MATTHEWS:  And we know what Soviet media is, government-controlled, bossed

by the government.  You screw around, you`re dead. 


And there he is chuckling with this guy about our free media compared to

Russian state-controlled media, like, you don`t have fake media.  It`s

beyond vomit material.


Your thoughts? 


SYKES:  No, it is.


And there is no historical parallel for this.  A lot of us thought Helsinki

was the bottom.  But, with this president, there is no bottom. 


So here you have the president of the United States joking and making fun

of this whole issue.  Look, this is something that I think we ought to

understand, that the president not only thinks that he was vindicated.  He

got away – let me put it this way – that he got away with the Russian

conspiracy, that he was vindicated by the Mueller report, which, of course,

he was not. 


And because of that, he`s making light of it.  This is one of the reasons

why the Democrats in Congress need to move ahead more aggressively, because

this is a president who, number one, is making light of it. 


But he is also sending a signal to the world, and he is sending a signal to

Vladimir Putin that, in fact, he is not taking this seriously, that he is

treating it like a joke, and that he is not going to aggressively protect

next year`s – the integrity of next year`s election. 


And that in itself might be an impeachable offense. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, here is a couple of questions. 


Making fun of – how many Russians were indicted by the Mueller report, the

whole operation, 25 or something?






MATTHEWS:  So, he is denying all that, that the Russians were trying to

screw with our elections. 


CORN:  He`s – you know, stunned silence doesn`t work well on TV.  So I

will have to come up with some words here. 


But he`s been saying from the beginning – remember, throughout the

campaign, even after it was announced by the U.S. government that Russia

was doing this, he kept saying, no, they`re not.  He aided and abetted the

attack with his own lies and denials, and that comes through in the Mueller





CORN:  And he just simply has never taken this seriously, because, as you

said before, he played ball.  He winked at them.  He said, go ahead, get

those e-mails.


MATTHEWS:  And he is doing it right here. 


CORN:  And he is doing it right here. 


MATTHEWS:  This is a love story. 


CORN:  Again and again. 


And the thing is, the House Democrats need to do something.  Charlie is

right.  And I can`t believe that I always agree with him these days.


But he gets away with this because not a single Republican comes out and

says, Mr. President, you are wrong, you need to protect the election, and

you`re putting our own journalists at risk too. 


No one complains.  He is leading a cult, and he gets to say whatever he

wants to protect himself. 


MATTHEWS:  Charlie, it used to drive me crazy when somebody like

“Nightline” in the old days would put somebody on from Russia, so-called

media commentator. 


There is no free commentary in Russia.  It`s all controlled by the state. 

It`s a communist country, because, when it comes – they don`t have a First

Amendment.  And here is Trump laughing with Vlad about our media like he –

and saying, you don`t have this problem. 


What does that mean? 


SYKES:  Also, keep in mind that, in Russia…




MATTHEWS:  What`s it mean to Republicans?


SYKES:  Well, they murder journalists. 


This is part of the problem of the – and I`m starting to use the term of

normalization, that we have become numb to all of this, we have become numb

to this outrage.  We have become numb to how he behaves on the national



So, in Russia, Vladimir Putin murders journalists.  So this is stunned –

this is absolutely stunning.  At least Justin Amash is the one Republican

who has been willing to stand up against this. 


But unless Congress moves aggressively to say, look, we don`t think this is

a joke, then the president is going to continue to brush it off. 


And so I`m – by the way, Chris, I`m glad that you`re devoting a segment to

this, so that we don`t spend the entire day, the entire news cycle talking

about the Democrats` circular firing squad, because we still have a

president of the United States who is not fulfilling his number one

constitutional responsibility, which is to protect this country from its





Well, you know what?  I would rather celebrate a true Democratic event like

last night`s debate than this hell. 


But I want to ask about this MBS thing.  During the G20 summit that is

going on right now over in Japan, President Trump had a friendly moment

with Saudi Crown Prince, guess who, MBS, Mohammed bin Salman, who appeared

center stage with Trump during the traditional photographs with world



There they are together.  You got another Bobbsey Twin here. 


And “The Washington Post” notes it`s a far cry from the isolation the crown

prince faced at the previous summit last November in the wake the Jamal

Khashoggi killing. 


David, again asking the question of a free press.  If they don`t like a

reporter, they chop them up and put them in boxes or whatever they do with



CORN:  And Trump is fine with that.  He is fine with Duterte in El

Salvador, with Erdogan in Turkey, with Kim, of course, in North Korea.  He

likes authoritarians.  He likes autocrats. 


Why?  He has no values.  There was a transcript that came out this week of

Rex Tillerson being grilled by the House Foreign Affairs Committee. 




CORN:  They asked him, what are the president`s values?  Can you describe

his values?  He said, “I cannot,” because he has one value, Trump. 


And that`s why all this – he gets away with all this stuff. 




We`re going to get to this later, because we have got E. Jean coming on

this – later in the show. 


But here is a president – it`s unbelievable, what goes on.  Lindsey Graham

said, if Trump denies it, it didn`t happen.  I mean, that`s how the

Republican Party behaves, Charlie, right now.  All it takes is a denial,

and that didn`t happen. 


SYKES:  Yes. 


MATTHEWS:  It`s like – it`s something – it`s a notion of metaphysics.  It

didn`t actually happen because he said it didn`t happen. 


What reality is that, Charlie?  That`s a weird new notion. 


SYKES:  Well, that is a reality – well, this is what I think Hannah Arendt

described as the annihilation of truth, that, after a while, the point of

lies isn`t necessarily to make you believe one thing or another.


It`s to make you doubt the existence of truth or the existence – or your

ability to use your critical thinking to determine what is true. 


And that`s kind of – we are in that moment right now where we`re all part

of Donald Trump`s pathology.  But this is not a personality quirk alone. 

This is a president of the United States who is dangerous. 


And David`s point about his fascination with authoritarian thuggery is

really crucial here, that Donald Trump clearly has this fascination with

people like Putin, with people like MBS, and the disdain for our closest



Look, this has real consequences.  And, at some point, somebody like

Lindsey Graham has to understand what this means for our role in the world,

because there are consequences to those sorts of things. 


MATTHEWS:  I agree. 


And he is not just a menace.  He is a direction.  Trump is a direction. 


SYKES:  Yes. 


MATTHEWS:  We`re going somewhere with this guy. 


Thank you so much, guys.  You`re great to have on this Friday, David Corn

and Charlie Sykes. 


Up next:  It`s no longer if; it`s when.  Former special counsel Robert

Mueller has agreed now to testify before the Congress, two committees, in



What are some of the most important questions House Democrats should ask? 

And will his testimony move us closer to impeachment? 


More HARDBALL coming after this. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


After months of negotiations, former special counsel Robert Mueller has

agreed to testify to Congress about the findings of his investigation. 

It`s a big opportunity for Democrats, who promised to – quote – “bring

the Mueller report to life, but have failed so far to secure key witnesses. 


Mueller is now set to appear, however, before the House Judiciary and

Intelligence committees next month, in what could be the most consequential

hearings of Trump`s presidency. 


Meanwhile, former President Jimmy Carter made headlines today by

questioning the legitimacy of President Trump`s very election. 





that the Russians did interfere in the election, and I think the

interference, although not yet quantified, if fully investigated, would

show that Trump didn`t actually win the election in 2016. 


He lost the election, and he was put into office because the Russians

interfered on his behalf. 


QUESTION:  So do you believe President Trump is an illegitimate president? 




CARTER:  Based on what I just said, which I can`t retract… 








MATTHEWS:  Well, this comes after Trump spoke favorably of former President

Carter in his interview with “Meet the Press” last week.  Let`s listen to





TRUMP:  I like Jimmy Carter.  You know, Jimmy Carter has oftentimes come to

my defense. 


I don`t necessarily agree with the way he ran things, and that`s OK, and he

understands that, and so do I.  But he came to my defense on numerous

occasions.  And he thinks that I was treated the worst of anybody he`s ever

seen by the press. 






Well, just hours after Carter`s comment, President Trump made his little

joke to Vladimir Putin about Russian meddling in our elections. 




Up next:  The Supreme Court hands down split decisions with potentially

huge implications for our democracy.  The court says it won`t stop North

Carolina`s or Maryland`s partisan gerrymandering and doesn`t buy Trump`s

reason – at least his reason – for adding a citizenship question to the



Stick with us.  Much more after this. 







gerrymandering in Washington.  We need to end political gerrymandering in



The court today said they couldn`t do anything about it. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


That was Colorado Senator Michael Bennet last night during the debate last

night reacting to one of two big decisions coming from the Supreme Court



Many progressives and Democrats generally have said for years that one

reason Congress remains under Republican control all these years, even when

the national vote has gone to the Democrats, is because of gerrymandering,

the partisan redrawing of election maps by state legislatures. 


In a 5-4 vote, the conservative justices on the Supreme Court have ruled

yesterday that they were effectively powerless, however, to stop the

drawing of such partisan maps. 


Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in his majority decision that: “Excessive

partnership and distracting leads to results that reasonably seem unjust. 

But the fact that such gerrymandering is incompatible with democratic

principles does not mean that the solution lies with the federal



For more, I`m joined by Suzanne Almeida, redistricting and representative

counsel – representation counsel for Common Cause, whose group was the

plaintiff in the gerrymandering case at the center of yesterday`s Supreme

Court ruling.


What is the Supreme Court ruling that they will not administer justice? 


SUZANNE ALMEIDA, COMMON CAUSE:  You know, that`s the problem, right? 


The Supreme Court is saying that this is not their fight.  And we live in a

democracy, where every vote should count and every voice should matter. 

And, quite frankly, the Supreme Court just took the cowardly route here. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, how can the court, after years of doing votes that I grew

up with, like one man, one vote, one person, one vote, effectively – that

was getting involved in how we draw maps. 


ALMEIDA:  Absolutely.  Absolutely.


And Chief Justice John Roberts looks at those cases as well in his opinion,

saying that they`re different somehow.  But, you know, as Justice Kagan

says in her dissent, they`re really not that different.  There`s clear

standards that the court can use, and they just failed to do so.


MATTHEWS:  OK.  What`s the politics of this?  Are the courts afraid, or

they just Republicans. 


ALMEIDA:  You know, people have speculated for a lot of things, right?


One is that it`s important that the federal judiciary doesn`t get involved

in partisan politics, right?  They can`t be picking winners and losers. 

So, that`s one. 


Another is that, yes, there are – there is a conservative branch of the

judiciary, the federal court, and there is a liberal branch.  And the

conservatives were looking for Republican power. 


Personally, I think that that`s hopefully not the case, but it`s hard to



MATTHEWS:  Let`s talk about this other court decision about the census and

asking the citizenship question. 


What are the president`s prerogatives here at this point?  He says he will

just put it off, the census. 


ALMEIDA:  So he can`t do that.  He can do that up to a certain point, but

the federal Constitution, the United States Constitution, says that we have

to have a decennial census.  That means, every 10 years, we have to have a



The Census Act says that that census count starting in 1980 has to start by

April 1.  So he has a little bit of a window. 


MATTHEWS:  Of next year?


ALMEIDA:  Of next year, of 2020. 


But every 10 years, on April 1.  So he has a little bit of window, but not



MATTHEWS:  Who is going to enforce that? 


ALMEIDA:  The federal courts, right? 




ALMEIDA:  It`s always going to come back.


MATTHEWS:  So, he is limited.  He is limited. 




ALMEIDA:  He is limited. 


MATTHEWS:  Thank you so much, Suzanne Almeida.  We will have you back,

because these things aren`t going away. 


Author E. Jean Carroll, who accuses latest – who is the latest woman the

accuse the president of sexual assaulting her, joins us next. 


You`re watching HARDBALL. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


It`s been a little less than a week since E. Jean Carroll, a prominent

author and frequent guest on my old show in the old days, accused President

Trump of sexually assaulting her in the mid-`90s. 


In an excerpt from her new book published in “New York Magazine,” Carroll

describes an incident in which Donald Trump allegedly assaulted her and

forced himself on her in a department store dressing room. 


Yesterday, two of her friends went on the record with “The New York Times”

to back up her story. 


Lisa Birnbach, an author, and Carol Martin, a journalist, recounted their

conversations at the time of the alleged incident with Carroll. 


In this clip, Birnbach explains the initial conversation she had with

Carroll.  Let`s listen. 




LISA BIRNBACH, FRIEND OF E. JEAN CARROLL:  “It just – it was horrible.  We



And I said: “Let`s go to the police.”




“Come to my house.”


“No, I want to go home.”


“I will take you to the police.”


“No.  It was 15 minutes of my life.  It`s over.  Don`t ever tell anybody. 

I just had to tell you.”




MATTHEWS:  Well, on Tuesday of this week, two Republican senators said that

the allegations should be taken seriously. 


Utah Senator Mitt Romney told CNN: “It`s a very serious allegation.  I hope

that it is fully evaluated.  The president said it didn`t happen, and I

certainly hope that`s the case.”


Iowa Senator Joni Ernst, who recently revealed that she was raped in

college, told CNN: “Obviously, there has to be additional information. 

They need to be interviewed.  They need to interview her.  They need to

visit with him.”


I`m now joined by E. Jean Carroll, author of “What Do We Need Men For?” –

that`s a provocative title right there – which comes out next Tuesday. 


Thank you. 


I don`t mean to be jocular. 


But I haven`t seen you in a while, Jean.  And it`s great to have you on,

not for this reason, but perhaps for the book. 


Let me ask you about this.  What do you make of Mitt Romney, who is a hard

guy to read sometimes in terms of his values and his politics, coming out

and saying, we need to have some kind of look into this case?  He is taking

it seriously. 


E. JEAN CARROLL, TRUMP ACCUSER:  Chris, it was heartening.  It buoyed up my

spirit.  I love that he spoke out. 


And I`m so happy to see you again, Chris.  We go back to the days, you



MATTHEWS: “America`s Talking.” 


CARROLL:  What?  Yes, “America`s Talking.” 


MATTHEWS:  “America`s Talking.”


CARROLL:  And you led us.  You were just brilliant.  You were a columnist. 

Remember, you were a writer?


MATTHEWS:  Sure, “San Francisco Examiner” and “Chronicle,” yes, those days. 


CARROLL:  And Roger Ailes put you on the air. 


MATTHEWS:  That`s right. 




MATTHEWS:  Let me ask you about this – about – will you cooperate if

you`re called by the Senate, either Joni Ernst of Iowa or Mitt Romney of

Utah?  Would you cooperate with the Senate inquiry or any inquiry into the

facts of the case? 


CARROLL:  Absolutely, 100 percent. 


MATTHEWS:  Let me ask you a couple of questions of mine. 


Did you – have you since the incident occurred have in any way contacted

or been contacted through mutual friends or whatever?  Has Trump shown any

knowledge of this thing happening to you? 


CARROLL:  Pardon me?  What do you mean? 


MATTHEWS:  Has he, through any means, through conversation or say hello for

me?  You know how it works. 


CARROLL:  No.  Yes. 


MATTHEWS:  Has he bumped in – has he shown any recognition of you as a

human being? 




MATTHEWS:  None?  Zero?




MATTHEWS:  Have you been able to – when you – I was trying to think about

why you came forward now.  And I was thinking maybe it was in the process

of giving advice to women who have had terrible situations, and you have

been their counselors. 


CARROLL:  You nailed it.  That`s exactly it. 


Since Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey hit “The New York Times” with the Harvey

Weinstein story…




CARROLL:  … my column was flooded with women asking me if they should go

forward and report their boss.  Should they call the police about their

son-in-law?  Who do they speak to?  E. Jean, please help me.  I don`t know

what to do. 


And then I, of course, felt terrible, because I have had this secret all

these years, and have not made a peep about it. 




CARROLL:  And, here, these women are, whom I love.  I love these women. 

And I love my correspondents. 


And I just hadn`t been straight with them.  I just hadn`t been straight. 

So I had to come forward. 


MATTHEWS:  I`m trying to think about – and I think I understand.  But I`m

just going to guess.  And you tell me if I`m right. 


You`re not nobody.  You`re a prominent – a figure of – people know your

name.  They know you`re a professional.  You know the media, how it works. 

You`re able to go through the ropes of the media.  You knew how to do it. 

If you wanted to put this story out, you could have done it. 


Is it because you didn`t want to be known as the woman that was raped? 


CARROLL:  I`m not a victim. 


I`m a woman who went through a very short period of time where an event

happened.  And I think of it as a fight.  And so I wanted – I could have

come forward, Chris, flanked with attorneys, maybe famous attorneys who

represented women who have suffered sexual violence. 




CARROLL:  I could have, you know, spoken to a press conference, which would

have been a horrible thing. 


But I wanted to control my own story.  I wanted to get it down on paper.  I

wanted to control every word of it, and then I gave it out.  And I think

that is a good way for women to proceed. 


MATTHEWS:  You know, I was thinking what you said about you didn`t – you

wanted to say it was not anything like romance, anything like what we think

of as sex positively, enjoyable, let`s say, in that sense. 


It was like you didn`t – you didn`t want it to seem like Dominique Francon

in “The Fountainhead,” where she is raped by the guy, and said, oh, this is

great.  Remember that scene that Ayn Rand wrote? 


CARROLL:  Oh, it`s emblazoned on my brain. 






It`s – well, here`s the – the lead-up to the scene was very flirtatious,

delightful.  We were bantering back and forth.  We were telling jokes. 


I was delighted that I had run into Donald Trump, and he had asked for my

advice about buying a present. 


And, Chris, to me, it was funny.  It was a funny scene that we would end up

in the lingerie department. 




CARROLL:  To me, it was just getting better and better, and I was going to

have a great story to dine out on.  And it was going to be, you know – and



MATTHEWS:  Oh, yes, I get it.  I`d watch that. 




MATTHEWS:  Let me ask you about Fifth Avenue.  This president has given us

two evidence as to why to believe your story, besides the fact that I

believe you.


I think the people, the contemporary accounts you gave to other people

certainly gives it validity and genuineness and truth, to me.  Truth is the

right word. 


But Donald Trump said, I can shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and get away

with it.  Here, he committed this sexual assault on Fifth Avenue.  It`s



CARROLL:  I haven`t thought of that.  That`s exactly right. 


And, you know, I basically was shot in that dressing room.  He basically

shot me. 




CARROLL:  Ever since that event has happened, I have never – I have never

been with another man. 


MATTHEWS:  Yes, I read that. 


CARROLL:  And that`s been 25 years. 


So, he shot something in me.  Even though I jumped back up, and my chin is

up, and I have been smiling, and I have certainly moved on, he did shoot. 

He did – he did kill something in me. 


MATTHEWS:  E. Jean, thank you. 


CARROLL:  Thank you, Chris. 


MATTHEWS:  You are – you are a survivor and a great person.  And I`m glad

you told the story, because if someone of your intellect and media

connections and sophistication and savvy is the right word, if someone like

you doesn`t come out, what about the – really the little person who has no

connections, no hope…


CARROLL:  Exactly.  Exactly. 


MATTHEWS:  … no knowledge of how to deal with this?


CARROLL:  Exactly.  Exactly. 


MATTHEWS:  Thank you. 


CARROLL:  Thank you, Chris.   


MATTHEWS:  You are great.  You are a great person. 


And I remember the glory days of “America`s Talking.”  What a wild time.


CARROLL:  Oh, what fun we had.


MATTHEWS:  And those crazy shows we had.  Anyway…


CARROLL:  Oh.  Oh, my God.


MATTHEWS:  Thank you.  Thank you so much, E. Jean Carroll, for coming on. 


Up next: what the Democratic candidates told me moments after stepping off

that debate stage last night. 


You`re watching HARDBALL. 




MATTHEWS:  Last night`s Democratic presidential debate was the most watched

Democratic debate ever. 


To get a closer look at the candidates, I got to interview most of them

afterwards.  Here are some of the highlights. 




MATTHEWS:  I have got Senator Kamala Harris here for an amazing night in

history, I thought, tonight. 



segregationists had had their way, I would not be a member of the United

States Senate, and I certainly would not be a serious candidate for

president of the United States. 


JULIAN CASTRO (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  An image like that of that

father and his young daughter, anybody can relate to that. 


MATTHEWS:  Is the reason nobody attacked Biden tonight is they all want to

be his running mate? 



a male offered me, because we should have a female vice president. 


MATTHEWS:  And it`s always dangerous for men to be talking about

reproductive rights. 



says, I`m the only one on the stage that has led on reproductive rights, I

literally looked at the two other women on the stage, at Elizabeth and

Tulsi.  And we were like going – and that`s when I said, ah, there`s three

women on this stage. 





2020 is not to try to roll back the clock, not to come up with some small

ideas about, we will make a change here and a change over there. 


It`s to make big, systemic change. 




MATTHEWS:  The spin room is heaven. 


That`s HARDBALL for the big week we just had.  Thanks for joining us. 


“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.








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