Trump “detached” from re-election campaign. TRANSCRIPT: 6/11/19, Hardball w/ Chris Matthews.

Guests:
Susan Page, Michael Steele, Eric Swalwell, Aisha Moodie-Mills, Cheri Bustos, Bret Stephens
Transcript:

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST:  That does it for The Beat.  HARDBALL starts now.

 

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  Split screen, split country.  Let`s play

HARDBALL.

 

Good evening.  I`m Chris Matthews up in New York.

 

This is America, the June before a presidential election year.  Tonight, we

will see a split screen picture of a country divided roughly down the

middle.  On one screen a president attacking the person he fears most

politically.  On the other, the challenger who`s waited his whole life for

this chance.

 

But it`s the country that`s split tonight between the defiant minority

backing Donald Trump and the popular majority want him gone out of their

faces, out of their lives, out of the White House.  Joe Biden is making his

bid 18 months ahead as the surest person to make that happen.

 

President Trump will be speaking in a republican fundraiser outside Des

Moines, Iowa while 200 miles away in Davenport, Iowa, Joe Biden will be

giving a speech where he plans to excoriate the President on a whole range

of issues.  It comes after dueling events today across the Hawkeye State

where Biden offer this is scathing assessment of the President.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT:  Look, I believe that the President

is literally an existential threat to America.  He is a genuine threat to

our core values.  This is a guy who does everything to separate and

frighten people.  It`s about fear and loathing.  It`s about what he calls

people the names he calls them.  No president has done something like that,

for God`s sake.  I mean, it`s bizarre and it`s damaging.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  And on his way out of Washington, D.C. for his own event in

Iowa, the President tore into Biden.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT:  Well, I heard Biden who is a loser.  I mean,

look, Joe never got more than 1 percent except Obama took him off trash

heap.  And now, it looks like he`s failing.  It looks like his friends from

the left are going to overtake him pretty soon.  Look, when a man has to

mention my name 76 times in a speech, that means he`s in trouble.

 

Now, I have to tell you, he`s a different guy.  He looks different than he

used to.  He acts different than he used to.  He`s even slower than he used

to be.  So I don`t know.  But when he mentions my name that many times, I

guess I should be complimented.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, even as the President tried to parry reports that he`s

afraid of Biden, a new Quinnipiac poll undercut him dramatically.  Look at

these numbers.  The new poll shows the President today losing to Biden in a

general election match up by 13 points.  That`s a solid majority, 53 to 40

against an incumbent president.

 

The sparring, by the way, comes as The New York Times reports that Biden

seems to have gotten into the President`s head.  According to the report in

The Times, after being briefed on a devastating 17-state poll conducted by

his own campaign pollster, Mr. Trump told aides to deny that his internal

polling showed him trailing Mr. Biden in many of the states he needs to

win, even though he is also trailing in public polls from key states like

Texas, Michigan and Pennsylvania.

 

President Trump said today he was hoping to face Biden.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

TRUMP:  I`d rather run against, I think, Biden than anybody.  I think he`s

the weakest mentally.  And I like running against people that are weak

mentally.  I think Joe is the weakest up here.  The other ones have much

more energy.  I don`t agree with their policies, but I think Joe is a man

who is – I call him 1 percent Joe, because until Obama came along, he

didn`t do very well.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, Biden was asked about the President`s latest attacks just

a short time ago tonight.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

REPORTER:  The President today raised questions about your age and raised

questions about whether you have the stamina to run for president.  There`s

been a lot of questions about your schedule and that it`s been a little

lighter than some the other candidates.

 

BIDEN:  Look at him and look at me and answer the question.

 

REPORTER:  You answer the question.  Will you please answer the question?

 

BIDEN:  It`s self-evident.  You know it`s a ridiculous assertion on his

part.  But, anyway, look, listen, people have a right to question all of

our ages.  That`s totally a legitimate thing.  All I can say is watch me.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  For more, I`m joined by Susan Page, Washington Bureau Chief at

USA Today, and Aisha Moodie-Mills, democratic strategist and a fellow at

Harvard Institute of Politics, and Michael Steele, a former RNC Chair.

 

And I`ve got go to Susan on this.  Down the middle here, 40 to 53 looks

pretty rough.  Although I always wonder if people are completely straight

in their answers to some well spoken reporter, a pollster, I always think

there`s a hidden Trump vote there, because there was last time.  And I

wonder whether the President is perhaps, on the other hand, scared of Joe.

 

SUSAN PAGE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, USA TODAY:  Well, I think he is

clearly concerned about Joe Biden because Joe Biden is strong with the kind

of voters in the sort of states that gave him the presidency.

 

But one thing to look at in that Quinnipiac poll is President Trump got

only 40 to 42 percent against any of the democratic contenders.  The

democratic contenders, all of the ones tested defeated the President, and

he is in a very narrow band of support.  So that should raise as many

questions as anything for President Trump in looking at his standing at a

time the country is in great shape economically, where get good economic

reports (ph), record low unemployment.  He can`t get above 42 percent in a

poll against perspective democratic challengers.  That`s got to be of

concern.

 

MATTHEWS:  Michael, he has – he`s backed up to his old tricks.  Remember

with Obama – I was (INAUDIBLE) Obama, (INAUDIBLE) to be Obama.  Anyway,

Obama, and it`s like he used to say no one knew him in school, this kind of

spooky language.  No one knew him in school.  How come then?  Like what? 

He wasn`t in those schools.  And now, he`s saying, have you noticed Biden

is different now?  There`s something different about him.  What`s going on? 

Is this one of the spooky things where you make the people think there is

something wrong with the guy`s brains, he`s got dementia?  What is he

pushing here this day?

 

MICHAEL STEELE, FORMER RNC CHAIR:  Well, it`s funny.  You know, a lot of

what Trump was saying about Biden, people are thinking about him.  So

that`s –

 

MATTHEWS:  The Trumpster.

 

STEEEL:  – the Trumpster himself.  But here`s the rub.  What the President

does out of the gate, if you noticed the way the two men contrast their

conversation about the other, for Biden, it was around policy.  It was

about how the country is coming together or not coming together.  It`s

around this idea of who we are, the sense of us.

 

Trump personalized it.  He made it about Biden.  You know, the name

calling, the sort of vitriolic undermining of his mental capacity, the sort

of taking him down, tearing him down personally.  That`s how Trump wants to

engage.  He wants to make it personal, because that`s what his base feeds

off of.  That`s what that 40 percent feeds off of is the sort of

personalized attack against the individual.

 

Irrespective of whatever else is going on around him, on the economy and

jobs, et cetera, Trump will personalize this.  He can`t take it into the

broader space, Chris, because then it becomes a different conversation when

he talks about how this president has managed the affairs of the country

versus how he manages his personal relationship.

 

MATTHEWS:  I once heard of that somebody went to a boxing match, and they

said it was weird.  It turned into a hockey game.  I mean, because all

hockey games turned into boxing matches.  And it`s like this guy, Trump

wants to turn trash talking in the main event.  Trash talking is the main

event in politics for Trump.

 

AISHA MOODIE-MILLS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST:  Actually, thuggery is the main

event in the politics for Trump, and that`s what`s so just shocking as we

sit here and, literally, week after week after week, watch this just trash

talking guy who is literally a thug.  He wants to be a mobster.  Literally

pick bullied school yard fights with folks and not have any type of decent

conversation about issues, ideas, policies, et cetera.

 

I think that, you know, people are not here for that anymore.  When you

look at that –

 

MATTHEWS:  We`ll see.  His crowd loves it.

 

MOODIE-MILLS:  Any democrat at this point is going to be better than this

trash talking thug.

 

MATTHEWS:  I think his crowd seems to like the wise talk, the wise guy

talk.

 

Anyway, that event in the ethanol plant on council bluffs today, the

President tried to sharpen his attack on Biden, once again, rolling out the

nickname for the former Veep.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

TRUMP:  He was someplace in Iowa today and he said my name so many times

that people couldn`t stand it anymore.  No, don`t keep saying it.  Sleepy

guy.

 

With Biden, we would never be treated with respect because people don`t

respect him.  Even the people that he is running against, they`re saying,

where is he?  What happened?  He makes his stance in Iowa once every two

weeks and then he mentions my name 74 times in one speech.  I don`t know.

 

That reminds me of Crooked Hillary.  She did the same thing.  And then it

came time to vote, they all said, you know, she doesn`t like Trump very

much, but what else does she stand for.  The same thing is happening with

Sleepy Joe.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Susan, the stream of consciousness here is pretty obvious.  That

was not strategic, that Rambo we just heard there.

 

PAGE:  Well, in fact, remarkably, we`re not – I think we`re not seeing a

kind of strategic plan for the President`s re-election.  It`s interesting

because, you know, he actually declared his re-election campaign the day he

was inaugurated for his first term.  But we see very much kind of a short-

term punch and counterpunch campaign.

 

We don`t see plans for what I would do in my second term, the kind of thing

that we heard from previous incumbent presidents when they were running for

re-election.  What we hear is a kind of vitriol that really marked the 2016

campaign.  And I think Americans must look at this and think, do we have

another year-and-a-half of this coming up ahead of us.

 

MATTHEWS:  Your first question – you`ll get the first question.  Here it

is.  Is Trump afraid of Biden or not?  Or is he really – would he rather

run against somebody to Biden`s left or face Biden?  I mean, Biden is the

safe democratic nominee people think.  Who knows?  Who knows?  But he`s

portraying himself as the safe bet.  As I said in the beginning of the

show, the best bet to beat Trump.  Does Trump think he`s the best bet to

beat Trump, Susan?

 

PAGE:  I think that President Trump at this moment probably does think that

Joe Biden is the biggest threat to him, a bigger threat than someone he can

portray as a socialist like Bernie Sanders.

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes.  Well, if you call yourself a socialist, you`re going to be

called a socialist.  Let`s start there.  But that`s all right.

 

PAGE:  Yes.  Because Joe Biden has both experience next in the office next

door as vice president, he`s in line with a popular former president,

Barack Obama, and he has an appeal to white catholic voters, voters in

these industrial states.  And so I think the calculation is he is the

strongest candidate.  Not everyone – not every democrat is going to agree

with that analysis, but I think that is likely the analysis we`re hearing

inside the White House.

 

MATTHEWS:  Michael, you`re getting in here.  I heard your voice.

 

STEELE:  Yes, no.  I think Susan hit it right out of the park.  I think

that`s exactly right.  And I think that it`s very evident that Joe Biden,

of all the 23 candidates on that stage in a couple of weeks, is the most

inside the President`s head.  Because the President knows something that`s

very true and very important to him is that Joe Biden can peel off his

votes.  He can take votes away from Trump.

 

And so that`s what`s going to be critical for democrats going into this

next cycle.  It`s electability and all these things, but at the end of the

day, who can siphon off votes from Trump?  Who can put back the patch

holes, fill those patch holes in that blue wall that were open by Trump in

2016?  And Joe Biden, so far, is the guy that I think Trump knows is the

best at doing that.

 

MATTHEWS:  And you, Mike, and I are both roman catholic and I`m thinking is

that – is Trump going to make the risk of going hard on the life issue

next year, really hard hitting Biden for giving up on the Hyde Amendment or

is he going to be careful because that might hurt him in the burbs?

 

MOODIE-MILLS:  I think he is constantly going to go hard.  I think he`s

always going to play to his most extreme base, because those are the people

who show up for him.

 

I wonder though about Biden`s calculus with some of this too.  I wonder if

Biden thinks – and he`s pretty going hard to the paint too with the back

and forth.  If he thinks that he can –

 

MATTHEWS:  You have been watching the NBA this week, have you?  Go to the

paint.

 

MOODIE-MILLS:  Go to the paint.  I think that he is really – Biden gets

that he gets under Trump`s skin.  And we might see a Few Good Men moment

where, you know, Biden keeps poking the bear and maybe Trump, in a couple

of months, just says, you know what, you can`t handle the truth and

literally gives himself up and essentially says, you know what, everything

you all believe about me is right and I don`t care, and that he is going to

do that because he`s so frazzled by Joe Biden the way that he`s coming at

him.  Maybe that would get him –

 

MATTHEWS:  That would make for good theater and probably good government

and a better country.

 

Anyway, meanwhile, President Trump reportedly needs Biden to keep – this

is fascinating.  And like Jimmy Connors was after – look at these strings

on the racket to get ready for the match.  I need to focus on something. 

Apparently, according to The New York Times, they are reporting that

according to the campaign aides they talked to, this president is a

candidate who needs an identifiable opponent in order to keep his

interests.  And he was alternatively engrossed and detached from the re-

election event.  In other words, he won`t even think about anything unless

you say Biden, then he thinks.

 

According to The Times, Trump rarely have ever speaks to aides about what

he hopes to accomplish with what would be a hard one second term.  Adding,

he has shown no interest in formulating a new message for his campaign,

instead continuing with the winning, Make America Great Again slogan, from

the last fight.  Well, that`s up to him, of course.

 

But, Susan, it seems to me he needs to have a mano-y-mano situation, a

street corner fight for him to focus mentally.

 

PAGE:  You know, that is the form in which he excels, right?  He found

someone to – a counterpart in Hillary Clinton that he could batter.  Nancy

Pelosi, in some ways, has emerged in that way since democrats won control

of the House.  I think he is most comfortable in that format.

 

Although, in fairness, I think a lot of candidates are best when they have

an identifiable opponent who they can demonize and attack and not a more

and more (ph) for this field.  It is, I think, probably hard to run against

23 democrats at once.

 

MATTHEWS:  I agree.  Michael, it seems to – I mean, this is the way I

think about this all the time, so I think about it all the time.  It seems

to me Trump had a strategy.  Get in the mid 40s, somewhere around 44 or 45,

and then knock the other guy`s block off or woman`s block off, just make it

personal, get close enough to strike and hurt and knock the other person

off.

 

Don`t – you don`t need a lead.  You just need to be within striking

distance.  I don`t think he`s within striking distance right now.  I think

he`s to get somewhere between now and next year to beat the opponent even

if he does go at them personally.  Your thoughts.

 

STEELE:  Yes, and I think that`s right.  He needs to get somewhere in that

46, 47 percent range.  He`s not that far off in some respects, you know,

from where he was in 2016.

 

But the dynamics are going to be different.  And I think people need to

really assess a campaign for Trump against Hillary Clinton versus a

campaign for Trump against a democrat who has now seen four years of this,

and has a better sense of how to come at him.

 

You know, an Elizabeth Warren candidate, you know, he can do the Pocahontas

thing all day long.  But when she is, you know, thumping on his head –

 

MATTHEWS:  That`s not working anymore.

 

STEELE:  It`s not.  It`s not.  So when she is thumping on his head on some

serious policy, which has gotten the attention of a lot of people in the

country, how does he then pivot off of that when someone comes at him from

a different angle other than an attack back at him.

 

MATTHEWS:  I would say he is giving Joe Biden the political equivalent of a

kiss with all this attention that he`s giving.  That`s the biggest thing he

is giving, a big kiss, because all the newspapers tomorrow, all the

newspapers and everything tonight on cable and in nightly news tonight

here, it`s all going to be about this back and forth between the President

of the United States and the frontrunner in the democratic side, Joe Biden.

 

Susan Page, thank you.  Aisha Moodie-Mills, thank you very much, and

Michael Steele, my friend.

 

Coming up, the impasse over impeachment with two powerful democrats unable

to see eye-to-eye, they don`t agree.  Judiciary Committee Chair Jerry

Nadler has said to be pushing hard for impeachment and his committee is to

all the democrats are, but Nancy Pelosi will not be swayed on this.  The

big strategy is coming from her.  I`m going to talk members of Nadler`s

committee.  U.S. Congressman and presidential candidate Eric Swalwell is

coming.

 

Plus, Joe Biden calls President Trump an existential threat to the country. 

Wow.  I`m going to go to talk to former CIA Director John Brennan about

that, because he has got a case against Trump already.  Does he agree that

this president is destroying the country?

 

And what about Russia`s cyber warfare?  Why isn`t the White House taking it

seriously?

 

And here is something really special, Jon Stewart.  He`s back and he made

an emotional testimony on Capitol Hill today on behalf of the 9/11 first

responders.  It was powerful stuff.

 

Stick with us.  Much more ahead.  We`ll be right back.

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.

 

The debate over impeachment has exposed a deepening rift, of course,

between House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the chair of the House Judiciary

Committee, New York`s Jerry Nadler.  And while Nadler has been quietly

pushing apparently pretty hard to hold impeachment hearings – he wants to

get going – the speaker remains firm in opposition to that.

 

A source close to the speaker put her thinking in blunt terms today to

Politico: “Opening an impeachment inquiry would be the equivalent of

jumping off a cliff.”

 

Well, the rift between the two of these exploded into public view last week

when Politico reported that Pelosi told Nadler: “I don`t want to see him

impeached.  I want to see him in prison.”

 

Well, Pelosi declined to elaborate when asked about that today. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

QUESTION:  Did you actually say that the president, you would rather see

him in prison than impeached? 

 

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA):  When we have conversations in our caucus, they

stay in our caucus. 

 

Do people think that there are some impeachable offenses that the president

committed?  Yes.  How serious are they?  Are they criminal?  Many people

think they are. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, here`s what Nadler said on MSNBC late today when asked

about reports he`s pushing Pelosi to go for impeachment. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

ARI MELBER, HOST, “THE BEAT”:  When people say, oh, Chairman Nadler is

pushing Pelosi on this, that`s basically true or basically not true?

 

REP. JERROLD NADLER (D-NY):  Well, Nancy has – Nancy Pelosi has said that

all options are on the table.  They are on the table.  And when we get more

information, and as this process continues, we will have to make decisions

down the road. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  While neither of these two has been willing to address their

differences publicly, the split between Nadler and Pelosi has been evident

in their rhetoric. 

 

Nadler has often alluded to the threat of impeachment, while Pelosi has

repeatedly expressed caution. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

NADLER:  We have talked for a long time about approaching a constitutional

crisis.  We are now in it.  We are now in a constitutional crisis.

 

PELOSI:  Impeachment is a step that you have to take that is bringing the

American people with you.

 

NADLER:  With respect to impeachment question at this point, all options

are on the table and nothing should be ruled out. 

 

PELOSI:  I do think that impeachment is a very divisive place to go in our

country. 

 

NADLER:  We will not allow the president to block congressional subpoenas,

putting himself and his allies above the law. 

 

PELOSI:  Many constituents want to impeach the president.

 

(APPLAUSE)

 

PELOSI:  But we want to do what is right and what get results.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Did you hear the clapping before she changed the point?

 

It was against this backdrop of these two fighting that the House today

voted to approve a resolution making it easier for committee chairs to

enforce their subpoenas through legal action. 

 

I`m joined right now by 2020 Democratic presidential candidate and

Congressman Eric Swalwell of California.  He is a member of the House

Intelligence and Judiciary committees.

 

So, Congressman, a tough question, but this is HARDBALL.  And you agreed to

come on.

 

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Yes, I did. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Whose side you on? 

 

SWALWELL:  I think we`re on the way to impeachment, Chris. 

 

MATTHEWS:  No, whose side are you on, Nadler, who wants to move for

impeachment, or Pelosi, who doesn`t?  Which side are you on?

 

SWALWELL:  I don`t accept that they`re in conflict with each other. 

 

MATTHEWS:  You don`t? 

 

SWALWELL:  No.

 

MATTHEWS:  So I`m wrong?  My reporting is wrong?  They agree? 

 

SWALWELL:  I don`t think they`re in conflict. 

 

I think they both recognize it`s an extraordinary remedy, and we want to

get it right first.  Today was a big day in the House.  We voted to hold

the attorney general in contempt. 

 

MATTHEWS:  I know.

 

SWALWELL:  But it`s…

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, I will see when any of your ploys work.

 

Congressman, I have watched the Democrats dither around with process, Adam

Schiff talking about what he`s going to do, what he`s not going to do. 

Then he`s disappeared.  You guys never get anything done.

 

SWALWELL:  No, we`re winning.

 

MATTHEWS:  You have not been able to get a single witness up there that

didn`t want to come up.

 

SWALWELL:  We`re winning.

 

MATTHEWS:  Name me the witness you have gotten to come before your

committee in all these months you have had subpoena power. 

 

SWALWELL:  You know what, Chris? 

 

You bring me back in three months, and if that`s the case, if we haven`t

got witnesses because of these winning court fights, I will say that you`re

right. 

 

I went to the Department of Justice today, and I reviewed materials that I

was not going to review two weeks ago.

 

MATTHEWS:  You`re going to get McGahn?  You`re going to get Mueller? 

You`re going to get who?  Who are you going to get to testify that is

important in this race that is going to turn this issue around, so you can

move on impeachment?  Who`s going to come up?

 

SWALWELL:  Empty witness chairs will now mean empty pockets.  So they can

either go broke or they can come forward and tell the truth.  That`s what

today`s contempt vote means.

 

MATTHEWS:  Do you think bringing back John Dean served any purpose

yesterday? 

 

SWALWELL:  Yes, of course.

 

I think laying the foundation of what this means in the perspective of

history.  Chris, I was in high school when Bill Clinton went through

impeachment.  I wasn`t alive when Richard Nixon went through impeachment. 

 

There`s a whole generation – generations of people who have never seen our

country go through this before. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

 

SWALWELL:  So I think it`s important not to just assume that everyone has

seen and is familiar with Watergate, and so lay that out for them, so they

understand what`s at stake. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Did you know he was going to testify he was not a fact witness,

he had no facts to offer to this debate about the guilt or innocence of the

president?

 

Did you know ahead of time he was going to say, I`m not a fact witness?

 

SWALWELL:  No, I didn`t know that. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, that`s pretty dramatic stuff.  It sort of takes him off

the table as just sort of a guilt by nostalgia, it seemed like the purpose.

 

Somebody talked about a Ouija board, bringing him back.  Can he bring Nixon

back?  It became – it became, I thought, ridiculous.

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

SWALWELL:  I thought what it showed was what is at stake?

 

This democracy of ours is very, very fragile.  And this is not the first

time we have had a lawless president, and it won`t be the last.  And so

here, Congress, here`s what Nixon did.  Here`s what you can do now. 

 

MATTHEWS:  OK.  OK.

 

SWALWELL:  I thought it laid the foundation. 

 

MATTHEWS:  I respect you, but I`m asking you this.  Do you believe Nixon –

I`m sorry – I`m back into the past now.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

MATTHEWS:  Did you think that Trump has obstructed justice, by what you

have seen? 

 

SWALWELL:  Yes.  Yes. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, what`s holding you up from impeachment, then?  If he

obstructed justice, he committed a crime.

 

SWALWELL:  The evidence that we need to show the American people he

obstructed justice.

 

MATTHEWS:  What do you need to know that you don`t know, that you don`t

know, that you need to see?

 

SWALWELL:  The full Mueller report and his taxes.

 

And Mnuchin and Barr are blocking that.

 

MATTHEWS:  You need to know his – you need to see his taxes before you can

prove obstruction of justice?

 

SWALWELL:  I think – I don`t think we want to do this like a la carte

impeachment. 

 

I think we want to have one full body of articles, and not just say, oh, we

got the taxes, so let`s add that on.  So we`re going about this.  We`re

seeking everything we want.  And I think that`s where we head, Chris.

 

The question that I see is, look, we all know how the story ends.  It`s

just a matter of how many pages before we get there. 

 

MATTHEWS:  OK. 

 

Will you make me a gentleman`s bet…

 

SWALWELL:  Yes.

 

MATTHEWS:  … that Trump will be impeached?

 

SWALWELL:  He`s not going to be president on January 20, 2021.  I think he

will be impeached.  But I want to get it right before I say that`s what we

need to do right now.

 

MATTHEWS:  So, you bet he will be impeached?

 

SWALWELL:  Yes. 

 

MATTHEWS:  OK, thank you.  We will see how it works out.  Thank you, Eric

Swalwell of California, Democrat member of the Judiciary Committee and

candidate for president. 

 

Last month, NBC reported that Speaker Pelosi told her caucus in a closed-

door meeting that the president actually wants to be impeached. 

 

However, “The Washington Post” reports today that the president does not

want to be impeached.  In fact, he`s eager to avoid any such thing. 

 

I`m joined right now by the author that story, Ashley Parker, White House

reporter for “The Washington Post.” 

 

Thank you, Ashley.  We have missed you. 

 

But here`s the question.  So many things that I think Pelosi has used as

trying to make a case, he wants to be impeached, so don`t do it.  It`s one

of her clever tactics to try to keep her left quiet.  Like, I hate him more

than you.  I want him in prison.  All these tactics, I think it`s all

delaying action. 

 

She`s not for impeachment, because she believes it`s very bad politics, and

she can`t make the case for conviction.  I agree with all that. 

 

What`s up with Trump?  For a while there, it looked like he was egging on

Pelosi, trying to say terrible things about her family, how she`s an

embarrassment to her family, how her district is a joke, with all the

needles on the street and the homeless mess. 

 

He seemed to be wanting to get her to jump at him.

 

ASHLEY PARKER, “THE WASHINGTON POST”:  Right. 

 

And that`s one of the reasons I said about reporting this story was, there

was sort of a theory out there that you could make somewhat credibly that

the president, not just in his public comments, but in the way the White

House was sort of stonewalling nearly every single request from Congress,

that they were basically sort of trying to double dog dare Democrats into

impeaching the president. 

 

And so the truth is, the president is a little impeachment-curious. 

There`s parts of it that he finds intriguing.  But, at the end of the day,

just about everyone I talked to said, President Trump does not in any way

actually want to be impeached. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Is that why he permitted Attorney General Barr to begin to

release some documents, the underlying documents for the Mueller report? 

 

PARKER:  That`s a great question.  I actually don`t know the answer to that

specifically. 

 

But when you talk to the White House, and you kind of said, look, you have

stonewalled on just about every single request from Congress.  Is this part

of a broad strategy, again, to kind of goad the Democrats into impeaching

you, because you believe that would be politically beneficial? 

 

The answer is – and if you take them at their word – that, no, there is

no broad White House strategy to try to bring about impeachment because

they think it might help the president get reelected in 2021.

 

MATTHEWS:  What about the old theory that Trump, if he were impeached,

whether they can get the 218 votes they need in the House to even bring the

indictment to the Senate for a conviction over there, even if they couldn`t

get that fear, it would basically stain his record?

 

That`s one argument, that Trump would not want to be stained. 

 

But there`s the other argument that Trump – maybe this is against your

reporting, so challenge it – that Trump figures, if they do, do that, if

they go to impeachment, he will able to say, just what I every – told my -

- every one of my people in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, I told you

the deep state was coming to get me.  The media are with him. 

 

Those damn people out there are coming to rob you of the decision you made

in 2016.  And then he really rolls up the excitement on the MAGA crowd. 

 

PARKER:  You know what?  The truth is, both are true. 

 

The president, to your second point, he does believe and he has been told

by his political advisers that he thinks, if they come after him, that

gives him a really good sort of one target to focus on.  You were talking

about that earlier in the show. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

 

PARKER:  It allows him to paint Democrats as sore losers who are continuing

on with their witch-hunt.  And he does believe – he`s looked at what

happened to Bill Clinton during impeachment.  And he does believe that it

could very well help him politically.  He understands that.

 

And that`s one of the reasons why he is intrigued by impeachment.  But at

the same time, he also understands, as you said, it would be a historical

mark against his record.  He doesn`t like that.  And he also doesn`t like

the way he thinks, more importantly, it would allow the Democrats to

challenge the legitimacy of his presidency, which is something that

absolutely drives him crazy. 

 

We saw that with Russia.  And we see that now.

 

MATTHEWS:  Great reporting.  Ashley, great reporting.  I don`t know how you

guys get these people to talk at the White House, but you particularly get

these people to blab for you.  This is great reporting. 

 

PARKER:  Thank you. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Thank you, Ashley Parker. 

 

Still ahead:  House Democrats are gearing up for another big hearing

tomorrow, exposing the ongoing threat – this is serious nonpartisan

business – foreign interference in our elections.

 

Former CIA Director John Brennan, the perfect guy to come on tonight to

talk about Trump being an existential threat to the country, according to

Biden.

 

Don`t go anywhere. 

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

ROBERT MUELLER, RUSSIA PROBE SPECIAL COUNSEL:  Russian intelligence

officers who are part of the Russian military launched a concerted attack

on our political system.

 

And I will close by reiterating the central allegation of our indictments,

that there were multiple, systematic efforts to interfere in our election. 

And that allegation deserves the attention of every American. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL, to something that`s really important. 

 

Robert Mueller started and ended his only public remarks about his Russia

investigation with a warning to all Americans about the extent of Russia`s

infiltration into the 2016 presidential elections. 

 

And, tomorrow, the House Intelligence Committee will hold its first in a

series of hearings on the counterintelligence implications of Russia`s

meddling. 

 

President Trump has repeatedly downplayed Russia`s attempts to interfere,

even as members of his own administration have contradicted him. 

 

And, today, former Vice President Joe Biden said the president is shredding

America`s core values. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Look, I believe that the

president is literally an existential threat to America.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  For more, I`m joined by John Brennan, former CIA director and

MSNBC senior national security and intelligence analyst.

 

Would you analyze Joe Biden`s comment about this president being an

existential threat to our republic? 

 

JOHN BRENNAN, MSNBC SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST:  Well, I think Vice

President Biden was talking about Mr. Trump`s impact on our national

security, as well as our credibility as a nation across the board. 

 

So, from the standpoint of an existential threat, I think he`s just

emphasizing just how harmful Mr. Trump`s actions, as well as his inactions,

in terms of addressing the issues that we need to address in this country,

that it is a danger and one that is an existential threat in Vice President

Biden`s…

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

MATTHEWS:  Sometimes, I wonder, when President Trump has to talk about

something important, like the issues you have spent your life on, national

security, I can`t tell whether he`s deliberately lying or he is delusional,

he`s self-inflicted this nonsense into his head.

 

What is more – what`s more dangerous? 

 

BRENNAN:  Well…

 

MATTHEWS:  That he lies all the time, or that he believes this stuff, the

malarkey, as Joe Biden would call it?

 

BRENNAN:  Well, it`s hard to point out any aspect of Mr. Trump`s behavior

that is more dangerous than another, because he doesn`t seem to be

intellectually curious about the things that really do affect our lives and

the lives of future generations, whether it be climate change, or whether

it be other issues, such as the threats that exist in that cyber-

environment, and how we as a country need to prepare ourselves for these

challenges that lie ahead. 

 

And so I just think that, again, Vice President Biden is emphasizing that

Donald Trump is not – does not have the intellectual capability, nor, I

think, the interest in trying to do what is in the best interests, long-

term interests of this country. 

 

MATTHEWS:  What do you think a second term would do to the country, if –

if he did manage to squeak a second term, beats Biden or beats somebody

else on the Democrats` side?  What`s your worry, because I know you`re

worried?

 

What is your big fear about the look of this country in, say, five-and-a-

half years?

 

BRENNAN:  I keep shaking my head at the thought that Donald Trump is the

president of the United States.

 

But, unfortunately, he has allowed us to treat him like the ball on a kids`

soccer field, which is, when they play bunch ball, they all go after the

ball.  He enjoys being that focus of attention, that spectacle.

 

And it doesn`t allow us then, as a country, to really be setting the tone

for these other issues that need to be addressed.  It`s all about him. 

And, unfortunately, I think there`s too much focus on his every move.

 

What we need to do – and I`m glad the Senate committee tomorrow is going

to be addressing this issue about the counterintelligence challenges facing

our election.  We need to, as a country, in a bipartisan fashion, deal with

these challenges, because our national security, our future prosperity, our

future security really does require this government to tackle these issues

in a thoughtful, strategic and a bipartisan way. 

 

MATTHEWS:  As Wayne Gretzky once said, don`t go after the puck.  Go where

the puck is going to be.  Thank you.

 

“Wall Street Journal,” by the way, Mr. Director, is reporting today that

the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-un, his half-brother was a source for the

CIA before he was killed in a nerve agent attack over in Malaysia at that

airport in 2017. 

 

President Trump was asked about that report today and whether he thinks Kim

Jong-un had anything to do with his half-brother`s death. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

QUESTION:  Is the CIA wrong?  Did he have his half-brother killed?

 

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  I don`t know anything about

that.

 

I know this, that the relationship is such that that wouldn`t happen under

my auspices.  But I don`t know about that.  Nobody knows. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  What did he mean by, “That wouldn`t happen”? 

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

BRENNAN:  I have no idea. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Did it mean we weren`t going to spy on him and what – who he is

killing in his family over there?

 

BRENNAN:  Well, he has no appreciation for the importance of the

intelligence profession and the work that intelligence professionals do

around the globe, to include going out and trying to recruit individuals to

provide us the insights we need to keep our country strong and safe. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

 

BRENNAN:  So by saying he – it never would have happened under his watch -

- and, again, I`m not going to talk about whether or not an individual was

a source or not of the CIA.

 

But rest assured, Americans, that CIA officers around this globe are trying

to get close to those people that are going to provide us the insights, the

information, the secrets that we need. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

 

BRENNAN:  And Mr. Trump has always had a very, very sort of negative

attitude towards intelligence professionals, and particularly the CIA,

which I find reprehensible.

 

MATTHEWS:  Do you think he would call the CIA, the agency, and say, call

off the agents, call off any recruitment of agents, so he can protect his

friend, the North Korean dictator?  Would he actually do that? 

 

BRENNAN:  Well, I wouldn`t put it past him to try to prevent the

intelligence agency from understanding what might be happening, if he felt

that that was going to be harmful to his policy or personal interests or

objectives. 

 

And that`s why I`m very concerned about the upcoming presidential

elections.  It`s clear that the Russians interfered to help Mr. Trump in

2016.  Is Mr. Trump turning a blind eye to that because he doesn`t mind if

the Russians involve themselves again to try to enhance his prospects for

reelection? 

 

It`s really quite unnerving to think this president, Mr. Trump, can, in

fact, turn off law enforcement and intelligence capabilities if they pose a

threat to him personally. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Thank you, John Brennan.  It`s always an honor, sir.  Thank you.

 

BRENNAN:  Thanks, Chris.

 

MATTHEWS:  Still ahead, more on Trump and Biden doing their way across

Iowa.  Biden says Trump`s tariffs are crushing Iowa farmers.  Trump says

his secret trade agreement with Mexico will make things better in the long

run.  He`s right, I mean, they`re both right. 

 

We`re back after this. 

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.

 

For months, Democrats have been blanketing the state of Iowa, making their

pitches to voters in the perennial swing state.  Biden made his second

foray to Iowa today, of course, hitting the president where it hurts, on

the issue of tariffs. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  President Trump is in Iowa today. 

I hope his presence here will be a clarifying event.  Iowa farmers have

been crushed by his tariff war with China.  He thinks being tough is great. 

It`s really easy to be tough when someone else absorbs the pain. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  President Trump is self titled “tariff man” has launched a tit-

for-tat tariff war with a number of countries that has hit American farmers

hard, which explains why some were relieved to hear that President Trump

would not launch a war in a new front with Mexico, which he is calling a

victory on. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  The best thing that ever

happened to the farmers is me. 

 

That`s the agreement that everybody says I don`t have.  So, no, because I`m

going to let Mexico do the announcement at the right time.  Mexico, they

want to go through it, but here`s the agreement.  It`s a simple agreement. 

 

This is one page.  This is one page of a very long and very good agreement

for both Mexico and the United States.  Without the tariffs, we would have

had nothing. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Vice President Biden fired back at that.  Let`s watch.  Find out

what he has to say.  We will show you that when we come back after this

break. 

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

BIDEN:  The president, as I said where I come from, is down the road.  And,

apparently, he has a secret important document with Mexico.  And I`m sure

that there are a heck of a lot of Iowans who are being crushed by his

tariffs that who would like to see that secret document.  I`m anxious to

see it. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.

 

That was Vice President Biden, of course, today, hitting the president

again on his trade wars.  The Iowa state had voted for both Barack Obama

and then, of course, for Trump.  It`s been a focal front of that war.

 

Despite the punishing cost to many farmers, President Trump`s support among

Republicans in Iowa is strong at 81 percent.  Strong support.  They are

putting up with it. 

 

Overall, though, only 42 percent of Iowans approve to the job the president

is doing, according to a Morning Consult.  While 54 percent disapprove. 

That`s sort of a national number. 

 

For more, I`m joined by U.S. Congresswoman Cheri Bustos, Democrat from

Illinois, not far from Iowa, who`s chair of the Democratic Congressional

Campaign Committee.  And Bret Stephens is a “New York Times” columnist. 

 

Congresswoman, thank you for this.  I want to you disaggregate this, to

separate the two.  The China trade wars that is punishing China because of

their screwing around with us all these years in terms of trade and the

billions that have been building up in terms of exchange, because of the

way they benefit with the trade with the United States and there`s more

recent thing with Mexico which is to stop all the asylum seekers from going

through Mexico.

 

Is there a difference in reaction politically to those trade war issues? 

 

REP. CHERI BUSTOS (D-IL):  Well, keep in mind that the biggest agricultural

trading partners we have are China, Mexico, and Canada.  If you want to go

back to candidate Trump, he stood behind a podium in Des Moines, Iowa,

saying, I am going to end the war on the American farmer. 

 

And here we are in this trade war where who is getting hit among the

hardest of just about anybody?  It`s our family farmer.  Now, this is –

our family farmers are not just hurting, but also the unpredictability of

mother nature.

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes.

 

BUSTOS:  But it is also the unpredictability of what comes out of the White

House through the tweet of the day.  We just don`t know what`s going to

happen with trade next.  It starts out we would have this 5 percent tariff

starting Monday, and then, all of a sudden, we`re not.  Now, he pulls this

little piece of paper out of his pocket. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, he might have a deal, we don`t know.  I think he might

have the deal.  I don`t know.

 

BUSTOS:  I hope he does.  For the sake of the American farmer, I hope he

does have a deal.  

 

MATTHEWS:  Let me ask you about the patriotism, tough trade wars, and the

needs – economic needs of a farmer who depends on their lives on the

success of our props being sold, the place like Mexico.  I remember with

Carter and when he pushed the green embargo against the Russians for

invading Afghanistan, the farmers stuck with him. 

 

BRET STEPHENS, COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES:  Yes, sure, because –

 

MATTHEWS:  Through all the hardship. 

 

STEPHENS:  Because farmers have complex political motives.  They are not

just economic determinates. 

 

I mean, look, farmers are being hit two ways.  That`s the cost of goods for

them is going up and their ability to sell is going down, which is a real

opening for any Democratic opponent of Trump.  But, you know, this is Tom

Frank`s thesis, what`s the matter with Kansas.  People don`t vote their

economic interests. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes.

 

STEPHENS:  They vote cultural values.  They vote for the guy they feel

their – who speaks for them in a larger sense than the bottom line. 

 

MATTHEWS:  OK, everybody – Congresswoman, I think people feel China has

been eating our lunch for years in terms of trade deals.  They`re not

honest about intellectual property, all kinds of things.  They benefit so

they can go buy half of Africa whenever they want to do it, they have so

much exchange. 

 

At the same time people, regular Republican voters want to stomp the

immigration for across the border. 

 

And so, doesn`t Trump get benefits for taking on the fights with the

farmers? 

 

BUSTOS:  Well, I can tell you, the farmers don`t want these trade wars

fought on their backs.  And that`s what`s happening right now. 

 

I was just home – I was in Prophetstown meeting with about 15 farmers just

over the last couple of days.  And on my ride to Prophetstown, and my ride

by to Moline, Illinois, which is where I live, literally these farm fields

on the right side of the road, on the left side of the road, literally have

standing puddles.  I look over to one and there are ducks swimming on a

farm field. 

 

We – I talked with an insurance agent who sells crop insurance.  He said

90 percent of his farm clients are applying for what`s called preplant. 

Meaning, they are unable to plant corn and beans because of the weather. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes.

 

BUSTOS:  On top with that, then we`ve got all this unpredictability, again,

over these trade disagreements. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes.

 

BUSTOS:  We`ve got a big problem here.  Then on top of it, if we get things

heading on a good path, then we`ve got Mitch McConnell who is unwilling to

take up what we are doing out of the U.S. House of Representatives to

address other needs that our farm families have like bringing down the cost

of health care. 

 

So, you`ve got all of these issues going on, along with the trade, along

with the bad weather, along with the cost of health care.  All of that is

impacting the family farmer in a big way. 

 

MATTHEWS:  I still see the Republican vote for Trump. 

 

STEPHENS   Yes, probably, but one important point is the immigration cuts

both ways because the Heartland is being depopulated.  There are counties

all over the Midwest that are losing – simply losing people.  They

desperately need people.

 

MATTHEWS:  They need workers. 

 

STEPHENS:  They need workers and Trump`s war on immigrant labor doesn`t

help them. 

 

MATTHEWS:  So interesting.  They don`t like the idea of immigration, but

they need the reality. 

 

STEPHENS:  That`s right.

 

MATTHEWS:  Thank you so much, U.S. Congresswoman Cheri Bustos of Illinois

and Bret Stephens.

 

Up next, Jon Stewart`s heartfelt plea on behalf of 9/11 first responders. 

It`s really something. 

 

Back in a minute. 

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

MATTHEWS:  It`s rare that a witness before the Congress speaks with as much

passion, authenticity and power as Jon Stewart did today, pleading the

cause of the 9/11 first responders. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

JON STEWART, FORMER HOST, “THE DAILY SHOW”:  Your indifference costs these

men and women their most valuable commodity – time.  So one thing they are

running out of.  They responded in five seconds.  They did their jobs, with

courage, grace, tenacity, humility.  Eighteen years later, do yours! 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  The comedian and former “Daily Show” host was urging members of

Congress to sustain the victim fund, speaking for the thousands stricken

with cancer and respiratory disease to exposure to the toxics dust to the

buildings destroyed by the 9/11 terrorists. 

 

Thanks to Jon Stewart, we`ve been reminded of why so many of us grow up

wanting to be firefighters.  They want to save people.  And today, we heard

that voice calling to us, again, to keep faith for those who raced to save

us 18 years ago. 

 

That`s HARDBALL for now. 

 

“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now. 

 

 

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY

BE UPDATED.

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