Trump lashes out at Pelosi over prison remark. TRANSCRIPT: 6/7/19, Hardball w/ Chris Matthews.

Guests:
Jonathan Lemire; Barbara Boxer; David Jolly; Eugene Scott, Seth Moulton, David Cicilline, Cynthia Alksne, Shermichael Singleton, Jose Aristimuno
Transcript:

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST:  – us this weekend.  You can do your own challenge

and post it online with a hash tag, #reason4freezinmbc.

 

That does it for us.  I`ll be back here 6:00 P.M. Eastern on Monday. 

HARDBALL is up next.

 

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  Trump`s assault on Normandy.  Let`s play

HARDBALL.  Good evening.  I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

 

Tonight, we know the full volume of Donald Trump`s rage, his torrent of

insults and Speaker Pelosi, deeply personal about her family and the city

she represents.

 

He arrived back in Washington late today from his five-day European trip

where he had been throwing political decorum out the window, trashing the

Mayor of London and Tweeting late night insults.  And that`s before he went

after Pelosi.

 

In an interview with Fox News taped yesterday in an American cemetery in

France in front of the graves of fallen American World War II heroes, he

unleashed a poison bag of venom.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT:  I think she is a disgrace.  I actually don`t

think she is a talented person.  I have tried to be nice to her because I

would like to have gotten deals done.  She is incapable of doing deals. 

She`s a nasty, vindictive, horrible person.

 

And she made a statement.  It was a horrible, nasty, vicious statement.

 

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST:  When you were overseas.

 

TRUMP:  While I`m overseas.

 

Now, if I made a mean statement about anybody, it would be like a big

header (ph).  Why would he do that while he was overseas?  She did one. 

She is a terrible person.

 

And I`ll tell you, her name is Nervous Nancy because she`s a nervous wreck.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Whilst today that he Tweeted from Air force One, quote, Nervous

Nancy Pelosi is a disgrace to herself and her family for having made such a

disgusting statement, especially since I was with foreign leaders overseas. 

There is no evidence for such a thing to have been said.

 

Anyway, Politico was first to report that in a closed door meeting.  Pelosi

told her caucus, I don`t want to see him impeached.  I want to see him in

prison.

 

Another Fox Host and POW of the President, Sean Hannity laid into the

Speaker last night.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST:  Even impeaching Trump apparently is not

enough that Speaker Pelosi now apparently telling senior democrats she

would like to see Trump behind bars based on no actual crime.  She wants a

political opponent locked up in prison?  That happens in banana republics. 

Beyond despicable behavior and, by the way, they would literally turn in

many ways the USA into a country we no longer recognize.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Wow.  Isn`t amazing how they speak with such innocence?  Lock

her up.  Lock her up.  That`s all we heard for the last several years. 

Well, that`s quite a defense of the President who made chants of lock her

up a centerpiece of his 2016 rallies and still does.

 

This basement in a war of words between the President and the Speaker caps

off a European road show where the President oscillated between decorum and

settling scores.  He spoke at the commemoration of 75th anniversary of D-

Day just minutes after taping the interview where he called Speaker Pelosi

a disaster.  For her part, Speaker Pelosi has declined to comment on the

President`s latest insults.

 

For more, I`m joined by former Democratic Senator from California, Barbara

Boxer, David Jolly, former Republican Congressman from Florida, Jonathan

Lemire, White House Reporter for the Associated Press, and Eugene Scott,

Political Reporter for The Washington Post.

 

I have to go to Jonathan first.  You were with him on this trip.  What did

it smell like, this weird five days?

 

JONATHAN LEMIRE, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, ASSOCIATED PRESS:  Yes.  We just

landed on Air Force One a few hours ago at Joint Base Andrews.  And it was

a strange mix for the President, where in public settings, he largely hit

the right notes.  We heard his speech yesterday at Normandy.  It was

obviously a very moving event, the 75th anniversary of that invasion, the

last that any – a significant anniversary that any of the veterans that

they will probably see.

 

You know, he did the same at a commemoration at Portsmouth the day before

and was certainly full of praise for the Queen and other members of the

British Royal Family and ruling party at a few events in London and prior

to that as part of that state visit.

 

But there`s a juxtaposition.  That`s public Trump.  And there was also

private Trump, the Trump that we got both on Twitter, where he unleashed

attacks from Charles Schumer to Nancy Pelosi, to most, and probably, Bette

Midler, and then those – the Trump that we heard in interviews.

 

MATTHEWS:  Psycho, Bette Midler at 1:30 in the morning.

 

LEMIRE:  Yes.

 

MATTHEWS:  Psycho.  He called her – he gets up at 1:30 in the morning and

called her a psycho.

 

LEMIRE:  Not the ideal or still up from the night before.  Not the ideal

image that an American president is trying to convey.  He is trying to be

statesman overseas.  He`s trying to represent this country overseas.  And

it`s much to his advisers` frustration who laid out a week that should have

just been largely a photo op.  It`s D-Day and it`s a state visit.  But

instead, he kept undermining himself of these personal feuds.

 

And then the capper he also had an interview with Piers Morgan.  He had

interview – he gave before he even landed, where he attacked a member –

you know, he supported Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and undermined Theresa

May on her way out the door.  But I think most gulling (ph) to a lot of

people was that interview you just played, the clip across the American

cemetery at Normandy.  The head stones behind him, where he attacked not

just Pelosi but went after former Special Counsel Robert Mueller who

himself was a decorated war hero.

 

MATTHEWS:  Senator Boxer, this is new stuff.  I don`t like it.  It`s like

he had this awful gas exhaust pipe, a pretty car with an awful exhaust

pipe.  This is we`re getting is the exhaust and the fumes from these five

days.

 

FMR. SEN. BARBARA BOXER (D-CA):  This is a sick person.  I`m telling you. 

And there is no private Trump and public Trump, with all due respect.  It`s

all Trump when he`s on TV with the backdrop, the graves of our most

incredible heroes.  And I was there.  I went to Normandy with my husband.

 

I – you know, every single politician has a big ego.  I certainly did and

probably still do, but you are so filled with awe, Chris, when you were

there.  And you realize the bravery, the incredible heroism, the sacrifices

that were made.

 

And to sit and look at a right wing reporter and destroy a war hero, Robert

Mueller, who is a wounded warrior in Vietnam and has several awards for

that, and then go after Nancy Pelosi, a woman who has made history.  She`s

raised five children.  She is extraordinary.  What he did to America, to

me, is beyond the pale, beyond the pale.

 

MATTHEWS:  Senator, I`ve got to get to this, because you know what we all

know that normal political trash talk is in politics.  You say things about

your opponent and you walk up afterwards and say, sorry about that, it was

part of the bait.  But this going after the family, I have never heard a

politician say about another one, you are a disgrace to your family. 

They`re going to – getting in between you and your children and your

husband.  That is – and then going after a constituency back home in San

Francisco.  And it just seemed like a penetrating insult.

 

BOXER:  Well, the thing is he`s lost it because he`s picked the wrong

target.  Anyone who knows Nancy Pelosi, and I served with her in the House

before I went over to the United States Senate, and then we worked closely

together, knows this is a woman who is super smart.  She`s raised that

beautiful family.  They are the most important thing to her along with her

country and she likes to win.  And she is going to win this with trump

because she will hold back and then she will tell the truth to the American

people.

 

And, by the way, what Nancy said about prison was not a public statement. 

That was a private comment that she made.  And, by the way, about 1,000

former prosecutors said the same thing, that this was an indictable

offense, it`s obstruction of justice.

 

But the bottom line is there was Trump leading the call, lock her up, to

Hillary Clinton.  The man always needs an enemy.  We could go through the

list.  They include John McCain and James Comey and Robert Mueller, and

now, Nancy Pelosi.  And, boy, I`ll tell you, he will wish he never did

this.  Trust me.

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, here he goes.  Here is the President slamming her, Nancy

Pelosi`s San Francisco Congressional District.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

TRUMP:  And ask Nancy, why is her district have drug and needles all over

the place?  It`s the most disgusting thing what she allowed to happen to

her district, with needles, with drug addicts, with people living in the

middle of the streets, with people living in the sidewalk.  She ought to

focus on that because she`s a disaster.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, David Jolly, you represented Tampa.  I`ve got to tell you,

that struck me as really going to a politician when you go after their

home, going after the city of San Francisco.

 

REP. DAVID JOLLY (R-FL):  Look, the soul of the man was on display in the

Laura Ingraham interview and on Twitter, not in his remarks commemorating

the 75th anniversary of D-Day.  Those were scripted remarks.  That`s Donald

Trump playing the actor president, if you will.

 

But what we saw on Ingraham interview and on Twitter is what Jimmy Carter

said.  Jimmy Carter said, weak men, like weak nations, act with bluster and

brashness and other signs of insecurity.  This is a fragile president

lashing out at the Speaker.

 

And as you said and the Senator said, doing so in on one of the most

hallowed grounds for American spirit, American memories and American

heroes, it was one more shattering of the norms of this president.

 

But, frankly, Chris, it`s exactly what we expect.  We fight not to accept

it.  But we certainly have come to expect it from Donald Trump.

 

MATTHEWS:  Eugene, I think we`ve brought the – you know, Speaker Pelosi

made that comment in the backroom.  But as Tip O`Neill once said, the walls

have ears.  Things get out.  It leaked out, of course, by – somebody

leaked it out.

 

But from Sean Hannity to say how dare she do that with that, but, in fact,

his – that chorus of lock her up about Hillary Clinton has been

resounding.  Don`t they have any sense of self-awareness that we say, lock

her, a woman, up and now, they`re getting excited about somebody saying

lock him up?

 

EUGENE SCOTT, POLITICAL REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST:  It`s gaslighting

like we haven`t seen in a while, which is significant considering who it

came from in the network that used to putting forward some ideas that we

find just outrageous.

 

But what`s really hurtful for the President to respond in a way that isn`t

winsome, isn`t going to help him get people who aren`t on the Trump train

on the Trump train –

 

MATTHEWS:  Did you say, winsome?

 

SCOTT:  I did say that.

 

MATTHEWS:  I love that.  That`s a great adjective.  I had a aunt from

Australia named Winsome.  But go ahead.

 

SCOTT:  Okay.  But the fact is the President needs some help and he needs

people who don`t like him to get on board if he`s going to do better in the

polls and do better in 2020.  And responding this way, attacking someone`s

family when she made a very valid point based on what this Mueller report

found isn`t just going to help him at all.

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes.  I know what she`s doing too.  It`s called loving something

to death.  She is trying to keep the really far out people who just want to

get Trump.  Look, I dislike him more than you do.  I think he belongs in

jail.

 

Anyway, during his Fox interview last night, he commented on the D-Day

ceremony where thousands of people, including some surviving veterans in

their 90s had gathered.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

TRUMP:  Listen to those incredible people back there.  These people are so

amazing.  And what they don`t realize is that I`m holding them up because

of this interview.  But that`s because it`s you.

 

INGRAHAM:  President –

 

TRUMP:  By the way, congratulations on your ratings.

INGRAHAM:  Than k you.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, the President said he was holding up the ceremony so he

could do that interview.  Here is what Fox Host Laura Ingraham herself told

viewers after the interview aired last night.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

INGRAHAM:  By the way, some of you may have heard or read that President

Trump supposedly held up the entire D-Day ceremony in order to do this

interview with me.  That is patently false, fake news.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  How on earth do we explain this to anybody who is new in this

country?  This is not the way people talk.  In a television interview, he

says, I held up everything so I could do my interview.  In that same hour,

the host of the show says that was not true.  That was fake news having

spent 55 minutes saying how great the guest of the show was, the President

of the United States.

 

LEMIRE:  This is actually a (INAUDIBLE) where both things are true.  I was

there as part of the press pool at this event.  We had a vantage point and

we could see the President give his interview.  There is no question. 

President Trump was late to the ceremony that delayed things.  But the

French President Emmanuel Macron was even later.  He arrived after

President Trump.  We saw Trump greet him.  The ceremony can only start if

they were both there.

 

So this is a case where, yes, he gave his interview and people watched him

do it, but the ceremony couldn`t have started until Macron arrived.  So

both things were true.

 

MATTHEWS:  But he was intentionally being late.

 

LEMIRE:  The interview was scheduled to air.

 

MATTHEWS:  I mean, he was holding everything up.

 

LEMIRE:  There was never a – talking to the White House advisers, there

was no suggestion that the interview was going to be canceled.  He was

going to do that interview for Fox News

.

MATTHEWS:  Listen to this, Senator.  This is like he harkens back to Bill

Clinton and getting a haircut on Air Force One from Kristoff (ph).  And

here is our President who knows that history gets presidents in trouble,

and there he is bragging about holding everything up for some personal

interview.  I just think he`s – it`s a whole new rule book, Senator.  It`s

a new one.

 

BOXER:  Well, he`s just an absolute narcissist.  I mean, in many ways, I

wish I would be much better if I had gotten my degree in psychology instead

of economics.  But the bottom line is he`s – whether he held it up or not,

he was proud that he thought he`d held it up, because it`s about me, me,

me.

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes, that`s the point.  Why would he brag about, embarrassing

the United States with a foreign ally so he could do a sort of a friendly

interview?

 

BOXER:  Yes.  He should change his first to me first, not America first,

me, me, me.  You know, I`m it.

 

MATTHEWS:  Jolly, you are no longer a republican.  I guess, you get gladder

then every couple of minutes.  But here we are again.  I don`t know what to

say because I think Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a former colleague of the

Senator used to say, we`re defining deviancy downward.

 

And so Trump gets into this thing and then Hannity calls it banana

republic, kind of like it is what it is.  But it`s Trump`s language.  And

Speaker Pelosi got caught off mic basically using Trump`s language, lock

her up.  She`s joined in.

 

So this is the language, the new lingo, frunk (ph) of America.  We now talk

trash talk at the highest level.

 

JOLLY:  Yes.  Look, it is.  And I think the nation is curious what comes

next.  Can we get back to boring?  Can we get back to what used to be

normal?

 

But to the Senator`s point, look, this is different than Donald Trump and

Mike Flynn chanting, lock her up, at a national convention.  This was a

comment made behind closed doors.

 

But I will say, it was an undisciplined comment by Nancy Pelosi.  And,

frankly, I do think she should explain herself.  Because it`s an untenable

suggestion to say that Donald Trump committed a crime and therefore

deserves to be in prison.  But you don`t have the constitutional obligation

to approach impeachment.

 

We have seen Nancy Pelosi say no to impeachment.  But you can`t make a

comment that he belongs in prison and still say no to an impeachment

inquiry.  I think Nancy Pelosi would help herself, frankly, by just very

quickly explaining this moment to the American people, because it will

follow her if she does not do so.

 

MATTHEWS:  We`ll see.  And so it`s no secret, by the way, the President

likes to stand out, but he took it to new heights, signing a D-Day

proclamation yesterday.  He signed his name at the very top of the

statement honoring those who lost their lives while other leaders,

including French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela

Merkel squeezed theirs in at the bottom.

 

I don`t know where to go with this.  Eugene, what do you make of this

bravado?  I mean, he just ignored the deal as you sign letters at the

bottom.

 

SCOTT:  We know this is not – this is not a White House that understands a

lot of protocol and have these things circling down, right?  And so perhaps

no one hold him or that he – no one gave him a heads up that this is how

things are done.  But the fact, and that`s where he went first is telling,

this is not someone who is interested in working with our allies to

remember our history and to create a future that benefits everyone.  He is

really thinking about Trump first very often.

 

MATTHEWS:  Trump first.  Do we agree?

 

LEMIRE:  I mean, that image basically sums up his policy, whereas it is

America first, it`s Trump first and he is always going to put this nation`s

interest ahead of any others.  And it was noteworthy in his speech at D-

Day.  There was one mention of the value of alliances, but only one mention

in his entire speech, while Macron`s speech a few minutes before was

peppered with the calls for the strength of these historic alliances as we

move forward.

 

MATTHEWS:  Senator, the whole idea of D-Day was the alliance.  It was –

Eisenhower was particular about it.  He was the leader of the alliance.  He

was head of the, basically, NATO at the time, supreme allied commander of

overlord, and the whole idea was to keep the British happy, to keep the

Russians happy, to keep the French happy, and so they can all work together

and have this victory.

 

And now, we have the German people as part of that alliance now and Italy,

people who lost the war.  And then he goes out there, a guy who has been

trashing NATO for two years and says that he liked the military bond of our

countries but not the political bond, it seems.

 

BOXER:  Are you speaking to me?

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes, Senator.

 

BOXER:  Are you speaking to me, Chris?  I`m so sorry.  Yes, I mean, you

said it all.  And anyone who has read any little bit of history and, for

me, I kind of lived through it, knows that the miracle of the alliance, the

miracle of stopping Nazi Germany and building a united Europe and a free

Europe, he sides with the tyrants.

 

He is dangerous, just dangerous.  Maybe it should say on his hat, Trump

first, and he should have another set that says Russia first or Kim Jong-un

first.  It`s really shocking and it`s not even about norms.  It`s about

someone who doesn`t get it, who doesn`t understand what it takes to keep us

safe and keep the world free from tyrants.

 

So it is – there are so many levels here.  And every day we wake up and we

are worried before we turn on the radio or the TV, what has happened next.

 

MATTHEWS:  Thank you.  I though one of the classiest things about this

commemoration of Normandy was the arrival of Angela Merkel, the German

Chancellor, because there are a lot of Germans in those cemeteries there. 

And I think it was a wonderful statement of unity and health.  Germany is

so new and so different from what it was.

 

Thank you so much, Former Senator Barbara Boxer, former U.S. Congressman

David Jolly, Jonathan Lemire, who was on the trip as you write notes on

this baby, and Eugene Scott.

 

Coming up, President Trump is back in Washington where his administration

will be subject to a series of congressional hearings starting next week. 

And no move on impeachment in sight right now.  Are democrats having any

success at holding the White House accountable?  Let`s talk about their

latest effort to go for the new wave of going after Trump.

 

Plus, the royal Trump family`s European vacation, wasn`t it wonderful? 

Trump`s grown children promoting their businesses.  Is this the new normal,

using the presidency to line up, well, more money perhaps?

 

Much more ahead.  Stay with us.

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

END

over prison remark; Hannity`s hypocrisy on display in prison rebuke; Lock

her up crowd slams Pelosi`s prison remark; Trump attacks Mueller and Pelosi

at D-Day memorial; Trump says Pelosi is a disgrace to herself and her

family; Pelosi reportedly told democrats, I don`t want to see him

impeached, I want to see him in prison; Trump says, Pelosi`s district has

drug needles all over the place; Trump sits for Fox News interview at D-Day

Memorial; Trump says, I`m holding them up because of this interview;

Ingraham says, Trump holding up ceremony to do interview is fake news; >

Nadler; Hillary Clinton; Michael Flynn; Sean Hannity; Laura Ingraham;

Congress; Senate; Politics; Fox News; D-Day>

 

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST:  – us this weekend.  You can do your own challenge

and post it online with a hash tag, #reason4freezinmbc.

 

That does it for us.  I`ll be back here 6:00 P.M. Eastern on Monday. 

HARDBALL is up next.

 

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  Trump`s assault on Normandy.  Let`s play

HARDBALL.  Good evening.  I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

 

Tonight, we know the full volume of Donald Trump`s rage, his torrent of

insults and Speaker Pelosi, deeply personal about her family and the city

she represents.

 

He arrived back in Washington late today from his five-day European trip

where he had been throwing political decorum out the window, trashing the

Mayor of London and Tweeting late night insults.  And that`s before he went

after Pelosi.

 

In an interview with Fox News taped yesterday in an American cemetery in

France in front of the graves of fallen American World War II heroes, he

unleashed a poison bag of venom.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT:  I think she is a disgrace.  I actually don`t

think she is a talented person.  I have tried to be nice to her because I

would like to have gotten deals done.  She is incapable of doing deals. 

She`s a nasty, vindictive, horrible person.

 

And she made a statement.  It was a horrible, nasty, vicious statement.

 

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST:  When you were overseas.

 

TRUMP:  While I`m overseas.

 

Now, if I made a mean statement about anybody, it would be like a big

header (ph).  Why would he do that while he was overseas?  She did one. 

She is a terrible person.

 

And I`ll tell you, her name is Nervous Nancy because she`s a nervous wreck.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Whilst today that he Tweeted from Air force One, quote, Nervous

Nancy Pelosi is a disgrace to herself and her family for having made such a

disgusting statement, especially since I was with foreign leaders overseas. 

There is no evidence for such a thing to have been said.

 

Anyway, Politico was first to report that in a closed door meeting.  Pelosi

told her caucus, I don`t want to see him impeached.  I want to see him in

prison.

 

Another Fox Host and POW of the President, Sean Hannity laid into the

Speaker last night.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST:  Even impeaching Trump apparently is not

enough that Speaker Pelosi now apparently telling senior democrats she

would like to see Trump behind bars based on no actual crime.  She wants a

political opponent locked up in prison?  That happens in banana republics. 

Beyond despicable behavior and, by the way, they would literally turn in

many ways the USA into a country we no longer recognize.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Wow.  Isn`t amazing how they speak with such innocence?  Lock

her up.  Lock her up.  That`s all we heard for the last several years. 

Well, that`s quite a defense of the President who made chants of lock her

up a centerpiece of his 2016 rallies and still does.

 

This basement in a war of words between the President and the Speaker caps

off a European road show where the President oscillated between decorum and

settling scores.  He spoke at the commemoration of 75th anniversary of D-

Day just minutes after taping the interview where he called Speaker Pelosi

a disaster.  For her part, Speaker Pelosi has declined to comment on the

President`s latest insults.

 

For more, I`m joined by former Democratic Senator from California, Barbara

Boxer, David Jolly, former Republican Congressman from Florida, Jonathan

Lemire, White House Reporter for the Associated Press, and Eugene Scott,

Political Reporter for The Washington Post.

 

I have to go to Jonathan first.  You were with him on this trip.  What did

it smell like, this weird five days?

 

JONATHAN LEMIRE, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, ASSOCIATED PRESS:  Yes.  We just

landed on Air Force One a few hours ago at Joint Base Andrews.  And it was

a strange mix for the President, where in public settings, he largely hit

the right notes.  We heard his speech yesterday at Normandy.  It was

obviously a very moving event, the 75th anniversary of that invasion, the

last that any – a significant anniversary that any of the veterans that

they will probably see.

 

You know, he did the same at a commemoration at Portsmouth the day before

and was certainly full of praise for the Queen and other members of the

British Royal Family and ruling party at a few events in London and prior

to that as part of that state visit.

 

But there`s a juxtaposition.  That`s public Trump.  And there was also

private Trump, the Trump that we got both on Twitter, where he unleashed

attacks from Charles Schumer to Nancy Pelosi, to most, and probably, Bette

Midler, and then those – the Trump that we heard in interviews.

 

MATTHEWS:  Psycho, Bette Midler at 1:30 in the morning.

 

LEMIRE:  Yes.

 

MATTHEWS:  Psycho.  He called her – he gets up at 1:30 in the morning and

called her a psycho.

 

LEMIRE:  Not the ideal or still up from the night before.  Not the ideal

image that an American president is trying to convey.  He is trying to be

statesman overseas.  He`s trying to represent this country overseas.  And

it`s much to his advisers` frustration who laid out a week that should have

just been largely a photo op.  It`s D-Day and it`s a state visit.  But

instead, he kept undermining himself of these personal feuds.

 

And then the capper he also had an interview with Piers Morgan.  He had

interview – he gave before he even landed, where he attacked a member –

you know, he supported Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and undermined Theresa

May on her way out the door.  But I think most gulling (ph) to a lot of

people was that interview you just played, the clip across the American

cemetery at Normandy.  The head stones behind him, where he attacked not

just Pelosi but went after former Special Counsel Robert Mueller who

himself was a decorated war hero.

 

MATTHEWS:  Senator Boxer, this is new stuff.  I don`t like it.  It`s like

he had this awful gas exhaust pipe, a pretty car with an awful exhaust

pipe.  This is we`re getting is the exhaust and the fumes from these five

days.

 

FMR. SEN. BARBARA BOXER (D-CA):  This is a sick person.  I`m telling you. 

And there is no private Trump and public Trump, with all due respect.  It`s

all Trump when he`s on TV with the backdrop, the graves of our most

incredible heroes.  And I was there.  I went to Normandy with my husband.

 

I – you know, every single politician has a big ego.  I certainly did and

probably still do, but you are so filled with awe, Chris, when you were

there.  And you realize the bravery, the incredible heroism, the sacrifices

that were made.

 

And to sit and look at a right wing reporter and destroy a war hero, Robert

Mueller, who is a wounded warrior in Vietnam and has several awards for

that, and then go after Nancy Pelosi, a woman who has made history.  She`s

raised five children.  She is extraordinary.  What he did to America, to

me, is beyond the pale, beyond the pale.

 

MATTHEWS:  Senator, I`ve got to get to this, because you know what we all

know that normal political trash talk is in politics.  You say things about

your opponent and you walk up afterwards and say, sorry about that, it was

part of the bait.  But this going after the family, I have never heard a

politician say about another one, you are a disgrace to your family. 

They`re going to – getting in between you and your children and your

husband.  That is – and then going after a constituency back home in San

Francisco.  And it just seemed like a penetrating insult.

 

BOXER:  Well, the thing is he`s lost it because he`s picked the wrong

target.  Anyone who knows Nancy Pelosi, and I served with her in the House

before I went over to the United States Senate, and then we worked closely

together, knows this is a woman who is super smart.  She`s raised that

beautiful family.  They are the most important thing to her along with her

country and she likes to win.  And she is going to win this with trump

because she will hold back and then she will tell the truth to the American

people.

 

And, by the way, what Nancy said about prison was not a public statement. 

That was a private comment that she made.  And, by the way, about 1,000

former prosecutors said the same thing, that this was an indictable

offense, it`s obstruction of justice.

 

But the bottom line is there was Trump leading the call, lock her up, to

Hillary Clinton.  The man always needs an enemy.  We could go through the

list.  They include John McCain and James Comey and Robert Mueller, and

now, Nancy Pelosi.  And, boy, I`ll tell you, he will wish he never did

this.  Trust me.

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, here he goes.  Here is the President slamming her, Nancy

Pelosi`s San Francisco Congressional District.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

TRUMP:  And ask Nancy, why is her district have drug and needles all over

the place?  It`s the most disgusting thing what she allowed to happen to

her district, with needles, with drug addicts, with people living in the

middle of the streets, with people living in the sidewalk.  She ought to

focus on that because she`s a disaster.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, David Jolly, you represented Tampa.  I`ve got to tell you,

that struck me as really going to a politician when you go after their

home, going after the city of San Francisco.

 

REP. DAVID JOLLY (R-FL):  Look, the soul of the man was on display in the

Laura Ingraham interview and on Twitter, not in his remarks commemorating

the 75th anniversary of D-Day.  Those were scripted remarks.  That`s Donald

Trump playing the actor president, if you will.

 

But what we saw on Ingraham interview and on Twitter is what Jimmy Carter

said.  Jimmy Carter said, weak men, like weak nations, act with bluster and

brashness and other signs of insecurity.  This is a fragile president

lashing out at the Speaker.

 

And as you said and the Senator said, doing so in on one of the most

hallowed grounds for American spirit, American memories and American

heroes, it was one more shattering of the norms of this president.

 

But, frankly, Chris, it`s exactly what we expect.  We fight not to accept

it.  But we certainly have come to expect it from Donald Trump.

 

MATTHEWS:  Eugene, I think we`ve brought the – you know, Speaker Pelosi

made that comment in the backroom.  But as Tip O`Neill once said, the walls

have ears.  Things get out.  It leaked out, of course, by – somebody

leaked it out.

 

But from Sean Hannity to say how dare she do that with that, but, in fact,

his – that chorus of lock her up about Hillary Clinton has been

resounding.  Don`t they have any sense of self-awareness that we say, lock

her, a woman, up and now, they`re getting excited about somebody saying

lock him up?

 

EUGENE SCOTT, POLITICAL REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST:  It`s gaslighting

like we haven`t seen in a while, which is significant considering who it

came from in the network that used to putting forward some ideas that we

find just outrageous.

 

But what`s really hurtful for the President to respond in a way that isn`t

winsome, isn`t going to help him get people who aren`t on the Trump train

on the Trump train –

 

MATTHEWS:  Did you say, winsome?

 

SCOTT:  I did say that.

 

MATTHEWS:  I love that.  That`s a great adjective.  I had a aunt from

Australia named Winsome.  But go ahead.

 

SCOTT:  Okay.  But the fact is the President needs some help and he needs

people who don`t like him to get on board if he`s going to do better in the

polls and do better in 2020.  And responding this way, attacking someone`s

family when she made a very valid point based on what this Mueller report

found isn`t just going to help him at all.

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes.  I know what she`s doing too.  It`s called loving something

to death.  She is trying to keep the really far out people who just want to

get Trump.  Look, I dislike him more than you do.  I think he belongs in

jail.

 

Anyway, during his Fox interview last night, he commented on the D-Day

ceremony where thousands of people, including some surviving veterans in

their 90s had gathered.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

TRUMP:  Listen to those incredible people back there.  These people are so

amazing.  And what they don`t realize is that I`m holding them up because

of this interview.  But that`s because it`s you.

 

INGRAHAM:  President –

 

TRUMP:  By the way, congratulations on your ratings.

INGRAHAM:  Than k you.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, the President said he was holding up the ceremony so he

could do that interview.  Here is what Fox Host Laura Ingraham herself told

viewers after the interview aired last night.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

INGRAHAM:  By the way, some of you may have heard or read that President

Trump supposedly held up the entire D-Day ceremony in order to do this

interview with me.  That is patently false, fake news.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  How on earth do we explain this to anybody who is new in this

country?  This is not the way people talk.  In a television interview, he

says, I held up everything so I could do my interview.  In that same hour,

the host of the show says that was not true.  That was fake news having

spent 55 minutes saying how great the guest of the show was, the President

of the United States.

 

LEMIRE:  This is actually a (INAUDIBLE) where both things are true.  I was

there as part of the press pool at this event.  We had a vantage point and

we could see the President give his interview.  There is no question. 

President Trump was late to the ceremony that delayed things.  But the

French President Emmanuel Macron was even later.  He arrived after

President Trump.  We saw Trump greet him.  The ceremony can only start if

they were both there.

 

So this is a case where, yes, he gave his interview and people watched him

do it, but the ceremony couldn`t have started until Macron arrived.  So

both things were true.

 

MATTHEWS:  But he was intentionally being late.

 

LEMIRE:  The interview was scheduled to air.

 

MATTHEWS:  I mean, he was holding everything up.

 

LEMIRE:  There was never a – talking to the White House advisers, there

was no suggestion that the interview was going to be canceled.  He was

going to do that interview for Fox News

.

MATTHEWS:  Listen to this, Senator.  This is like he harkens back to Bill

Clinton and getting a haircut on Air Force One from Kristoff (ph).  And

here is our President who knows that history gets presidents in trouble,

and there he is bragging about holding everything up for some personal

interview.  I just think he`s – it`s a whole new rule book, Senator.  It`s

a new one.

 

BOXER:  Well, he`s just an absolute narcissist.  I mean, in many ways, I

wish I would be much better if I had gotten my degree in psychology instead

of economics.  But the bottom line is he`s – whether he held it up or not,

he was proud that he thought he`d held it up, because it`s about me, me,

me.

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes, that`s the point.  Why would he brag about, embarrassing

the United States with a foreign ally so he could do a sort of a friendly

interview?

 

BOXER:  Yes.  He should change his first to me first, not America first,

me, me, me.  You know, I`m it.

 

MATTHEWS:  Jolly, you are no longer a republican.  I guess, you get gladder

then every couple of minutes.  But here we are again.  I don`t know what to

say because I think Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a former colleague of the

Senator used to say, we`re defining deviancy downward.

 

And so Trump gets into this thing and then Hannity calls it banana

republic, kind of like it is what it is.  But it`s Trump`s language.  And

Speaker Pelosi got caught off mic basically using Trump`s language, lock

her up.  She`s joined in.

 

So this is the language, the new lingo, frunk (ph) of America.  We now talk

trash talk at the highest level.

 

JOLLY:  Yes.  Look, it is.  And I think the nation is curious what comes

next.  Can we get back to boring?  Can we get back to what used to be

normal?

 

But to the Senator`s point, look, this is different than Donald Trump and

Mike Flynn chanting, lock her up, at a national convention.  This was a

comment made behind closed doors.

 

But I will say, it was an undisciplined comment by Nancy Pelosi.  And,

frankly, I do think she should explain herself.  Because it`s an untenable

suggestion to say that Donald Trump committed a crime and therefore

deserves to be in prison.  But you don`t have the constitutional obligation

to approach impeachment.

 

We have seen Nancy Pelosi say no to impeachment.  But you can`t make a

comment that he belongs in prison and still say no to an impeachment

inquiry.  I think Nancy Pelosi would help herself, frankly, by just very

quickly explaining this moment to the American people, because it will

follow her if she does not do so.

 

MATTHEWS:  We`ll see.  And so it`s no secret, by the way, the President

likes to stand out, but he took it to new heights, signing a D-Day

proclamation yesterday.  He signed his name at the very top of the

statement honoring those who lost their lives while other leaders,

including French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela

Merkel squeezed theirs in at the bottom.

 

I don`t know where to go with this.  Eugene, what do you make of this

bravado?  I mean, he just ignored the deal as you sign letters at the

bottom.

 

SCOTT:  We know this is not – this is not a White House that understands a

lot of protocol and have these things circling down, right?  And so perhaps

no one hold him or that he – no one gave him a heads up that this is how

things are done.  But the fact, and that`s where he went first is telling,

this is not someone who is interested in working with our allies to

remember our history and to create a future that benefits everyone.  He is

really thinking about Trump first very often.

 

MATTHEWS:  Trump first.  Do we agree?

 

LEMIRE:  I mean, that image basically sums up his policy, whereas it is

America first, it`s Trump first and he is always going to put this nation`s

interest ahead of any others.  And it was noteworthy in his speech at D-

Day.  There was one mention of the value of alliances, but only one mention

in his entire speech, while Macron`s speech a few minutes before was

peppered with the calls for the strength of these historic alliances as we

move forward.

 

MATTHEWS:  Senator, the whole idea of D-Day was the alliance.  It was –

Eisenhower was particular about it.  He was the leader of the alliance.  He

was head of the, basically, NATO at the time, supreme allied commander of

overlord, and the whole idea was to keep the British happy, to keep the

Russians happy, to keep the French happy, and so they can all work together

and have this victory.

 

And now, we have the German people as part of that alliance now and Italy,

people who lost the war.  And then he goes out there, a guy who has been

trashing NATO for two years and says that he liked the military bond of our

countries but not the political bond, it seems.

 

BOXER:  Are you speaking to me?

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes, Senator.

 

BOXER:  Are you speaking to me, Chris?  I`m so sorry.  Yes, I mean, you

said it all.  And anyone who has read any little bit of history and, for

me, I kind of lived through it, knows that the miracle of the alliance, the

miracle of stopping Nazi Germany and building a united Europe and a free

Europe, he sides with the tyrants.

 

He is dangerous, just dangerous.  Maybe it should say on his hat, Trump

first, and he should have another set that says Russia first or Kim Jong-un

first.  It`s really shocking and it`s not even about norms.  It`s about

someone who doesn`t get it, who doesn`t understand what it takes to keep us

safe and keep the world free from tyrants.

 

So it is – there are so many levels here.  And every day we wake up and we

are worried before we turn on the radio or the TV, what has happened next.

 

MATTHEWS:  Thank you.  I though one of the classiest things about this

commemoration of Normandy was the arrival of Angela Merkel, the German

Chancellor, because there are a lot of Germans in those cemeteries there. 

And I think it was a wonderful statement of unity and health.  Germany is

so new and so different from what it was.

 

Thank you so much, Former Senator Barbara Boxer, former U.S. Congressman

David Jolly, Jonathan Lemire, who was on the trip as you write notes on

this baby, and Eugene Scott.

 

Coming up, President Trump is back in Washington where his administration

will be subject to a series of congressional hearings starting next week. 

And no move on impeachment in sight right now.  Are democrats having any

success at holding the White House accountable?  Let`s talk about their

latest effort to go for the new wave of going after Trump.

 

Plus, the royal Trump family`s European vacation, wasn`t it wonderful? 

Trump`s grown children promoting their businesses.  Is this the new normal,

using the presidency to line up, well, more money perhaps?

 

Much more ahead.  Stay with us.

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 

 

After spending a week in royal company and touring the beaches of history,

President Trump heads home to a Democratic Party out to undermine his regal

presumptuousness.

 

Amid the administration`s blanket refusal to cooperate with Congress, the

House Oversight Committee warned the Trump administration that it plans to

vote next week to hold both Attorney General William Barr and Commerce

Secretary Wilbur Ross in contempt for failing to produce documents related

to an investigation into the citizenship question added to the 2020 U.S.

census. 

 

Oversight Committee Chairman Elijah Cummings wrote in a letter that the

contempt vote sets up the process of bringing a civil enforcement action to

obtain compliance, that the Trump administration`s obstructive actions were

part of a pattern in one of the most unprecedented cover-ups since

Watergate.  That`s what he wrote. 

 

That isn`t the only challenge that Barr, the A.G., is facing.  Yesterday,

House Democrats introduced a resolution that would allow the Judiciary

Committee of the House to initiate or intervene in judicial proceedings

that would compel both Barr and former White House counsel Don McGahn to

cooperate. 

 

The resolution also includes language that would allow committees to sue

the Trump administration and witnesses who do not comply with subpoenas.  A

full House vote on the resolution is scheduled for Tuesday.  That`s coming

up soon. 

 

For more, I`m joined by Congressman David Cicilline, Democrat from Rhode

Island and a member of the Judiciary Committee, and Cynthia Alksne, former

federal prosecutor.

 

Congressman, thank you for coming on this Friday night. 

 

REP. DAVID CICILLINE (D-RI):  My pleasure.

 

MATTHEWS:  So, let`s get to the – let`s cut to the bone of this thing. 

 

Does Congress have the power to force compliance with its subpoenas for

documents and personal testimony?  Do you have the power to actually make

it happen?  Because here we are in June, and nothing`s happened for six

months.

 

CICILLINE:  Yes, Congress absolutely has the power. 

 

There`s a process we have to file.  We will hold them in contempt by vote

on the House floor.  That will authorize the civil action, which is an

action brought in court.  And then the court will order them to comply with

the subpoena. 

 

And then, when they don`t, if they don`t, the court will enforce it by

taking them into custody, imposing fines or taking other actions.

 

MATTHEWS:  Whoa.

 

CICILLINE:  So, this is civil contempt.

 

MATTHEWS:  I have stop then.  I want to stop you there. 

 

CICILLINE:  Sure.

 

MATTHEWS:  What would happen if they are scofflaws, like people who don`t

pay traffic tickets?  What happens if the administration people say, we

don`t care if you`re hold us in contempt, we`re not coming anyway?

 

What do you do then? 

 

CICILLINE:  Well, then they have the entire power of the court.  They`re

defying a court order, not only defying a lawfully issued subpoena, but an

order of the court to comply with a subpoena. 

 

And they face all the potential sanctions of that, being taken into

custody, imposition of fines, all the powers the court has to enforce it.

 

MATTHEWS:  But the Justice Department has to enforce – the Justice

Department…

 

CICILLINE:  No.

 

MATTHEWS:  William Barr has to enforce those contempt citations.

 

CICILLINE:  Well, the court has do.  So, if – the court would direct the

law enforcement agencies to enforce those citations. 

 

But, look, witnesses are not going to defy a court order.  That`s a another

constitutional crisis, if that happens.  But these witnesses will be

directed by the court to do it.  And I expect they`re going to comply. 

 

If they don`t, then the court has all those enforcement tools at its

disposal.  But, look, the bottom line is, the Congress has the right to

this material.  If we allow the executive branch to just decide to defy

lawfully issued subpoenas for documents or individuals, they would

effectively extinguish congressional oversight. 

 

So, clearly, they don`t have the authority to do that.

 

MATTHEWS:  I agree, but I just haven`t seen one – Cynthia, I haven`t seen

one witness being compelled to testify, not one document being brought in

that was forced to be brought in.  And I haven`t seen anybody being cited

with contempt, because no one`s going to jail.  Nobody`s been arrested. 

Nobody`s been forced to – they have been laughing at the House. 

 

CYNTHIA ALKSNE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR:  They are laughing at the House. 

That`s exactly what they`re doing. 

 

Now, they have had some success.  They have the Deutsche Bank case and the

Mazars case, where they did win when they finally went to court.  But

that`s, of course, going to have to be appealed. 

 

But they have to start.  They have to get this HR-430, which is going to

give them the – give them the authority to go straight to court and not

have to deal with the Justice Department.  They need to get it done, and

not only for McGahn and Barr, but also for the commerce secretary and for

Barr when it comes to the census issue. 

 

And, in addition, instead of having big global lawsuits, which are going to

go slowly, they need to do a little chunks.  Like, instantly, this witness

was subpoenaed, she must appear, you know, Hope Hicks.

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

 

ALKSNE:  And not make it too complicated, because when the court – the

lawsuits are too complicated, pretty soon, there`s factual issues, and,

pretty soon, the case takes too long. 

 

So they have to be like little guerrilla raids.  Hope Hicks must testify. 

Kris Kobach must testify.  And this ridiculousness about executive

privilege of his, that`s totally improper.  That has to be overturned.  All

these little things have to be done in guerrilla lawsuits, and they need to

start now, because otherwise the House has no power. 

 

They look feckless.  And they will never be an equal branch of government

if they don`t stop writing letters and stop arguing about what these things

are called and start filing lawsuits in federal court. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, in a letter today, Democrats on the House Oversight

Committee revealed that they conducted an interview with Kris Kobach,

former Kansas secretary of state and an immigration hard-liner, about the

Trump administration`s effort to add the citizenship question to the U.S.

census of 2020. 

 

The letter states that the White House instructed Kobach to not answer the

committee`s questions because his conversations with the president or

senior White House advisers fall squarely scope – in the scope – within

the scope of executive privilege. 

 

Kobach is a private citizen, however, who never worked for the Trump

administration. 

 

Congressman Cicilline, it seems like they`re willing to use executive

privilege to cover anybody they like and any secret they want to keep. 

 

CICILLINE:  Look, this is an ongoing effort of the president of the United

States to engage in a cover-up to prevent the American people from seeing

the truth. 

 

There`s no claim of privilege that any court would recognize.  They know

that.  This is, again, a pattern of this president to prevent Congress from

getting to the truth, of behaving like he`s above the law, when, of course,

he`s not. 

 

It is why a number of us believe the time has come to open an impeachment

inquiry to raise the kind of level of the importance of the proceeding, to

strengthen our hand in our work in the courts, but also because the

president has continued to engage in behavior that, in and of itself, is a

separate grounds for opening an inquiry of impeachment. 

 

But we`re going to have to litigate these and fight them at every level. 

We`re committed to doing that.  No one in this country, including the

president of the United States, is above the law.  We`re going to get to

the truth, we`re going to follow the facts where they take us, and the

American people have a right to know. 

 

MATTHEWS:  We have got a calendar, however, facing us right now.  And I

have done this with a number of members of the House of Representatives and

the Senate. 

 

It`s June.  It`s come fast.  We started in January.  The Democrats won a

sweeping election last November.  We all thought – I have been promising

this.  When you have the power of the subpoena, all the rules change.  I

talked about how Nixon knew that, how much he regretted he couldn`t carry

the House in `72, when he got reelected by a landslide. 

 

But this power of the subpoena is not as strong as I thought it was.  And

is it as strong as you thought it was, Congressman, because it`s not

working yet?

 

CICILLINE:  Well, I mean, remember, Chris, it is very strong.  And it`s a -

- these are lawfully issued subpoenas that you`re required to comply with. 

 

We are still a country, despite the president`s best efforts, that has a

rule of law, that has a system of justice that we have to follow in order

to get those subpoenas enforced. 

 

We have never had a president before who so flagrantly disregarded the this

– the set of protocols and practices and norms. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

 

CICILLINE:  So we have to stop walking around kind of startled and get to

work, which we are beginning on Monday, to have our first hearing and our

subpoena vote.

 

We have to stop hoping the president is suddenly going to behave as if he

will honor the rule of law and recognize these norms and be in a position,

as Cynthia said, in every moment in a guerrilla-like way to be able to

litigate these. 

 

And it`s important, Chris.  While we`re doing this, we have passed 250

pieces of legislation…

 

MATTHEWS:  I know.

 

CICILLINE:  … that focus on important issues like health care, reducing

the cost of prescription drugs, equal pay for equal work, universal

background checks, a whole number of things that are addressing the

important priorities of the American people. 

 

So we have to do both things. 

 

MATTHEWS:  I agree, but you`re not doing the other one, which is getting to

Trump. 

 

Let me go to this one. 

 

Cynthia, are you going to be impressed when John Dean testifies?  I don`t

see the purpose of that.  John Dean`s being called as a witness from

Watergate.

 

ALKSNE:  I love John Dean.  He`s just one of the kindest, nicest men in the

whole wide world.  And I think it`s ridiculous. 

 

But what we have to stop doing is having this back and forth of letters,

like, you said you were going to do this, and quit negotiating.  Stop

negotiating and go to court.  That`s what needs to happen. 

 

And the Kris Kobach is a lesson in point for anybody who wonders about what

should – we should be doing.  Kris Kobach did not work in executive

branch.  There is no executive privilege.  The White House is asserting

executive privilege.  It is wrong. And they have to go to court and get it

overturned, not tomorrow, not after 17 letters, not after we have talked

about what`s the shape of the table or what we`re going to call the

argument about it. 

 

It`s wrong, it`s improper, and they need to go to court right away. 

 

MATTHEWS:  OK.  Thank you so much, U.S. Congressman David…

 

CICILLINE:  But, Chris, what you`re going to see…

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes, quickly.

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

CICILLINE:  I was just going to say, what you`re going to see on Monday,

quickly, is, you`re going to begin to hear the story. 

 

The American people are going to begin to hear the story of the president

directing Don McGahn to fire the special counsel, then to lie about it, the

firing of Director Comey to stop this investigation.  That story will begin

to unfold in front of the American people.

 

ALKSNE:  Yes, but we can get Mueller to do that.  Mueller can do that.

 

MATTHEWS:  David, Congressman, I`m going to make you a gentleman`s bed. 

 

CICILLINE:  OK.

 

MATTHEWS:  There`s not going to be any impeachment.  Let me know.  Let me

know. 

 

CICILLINE:  I will let you know.

 

MATTHEWS:  I will collect morally from you, because it`s not going to

happen. 

 

CICILLINE:  Absolutely. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Thank you, U.S. Congressman David Cicilline of Rhode Island.

 

And thank you, Cynthia Alksne.

 

Up next:  Congressman and presidential candidate Seth Moulton is going to

join us to talk about Joe Biden`s abandonment of the Hyde Amendment last

night, the Democratic divide over impeaching Trump, which I`m just talking

about, and a lot more.  Seth is running for president.

 

HARDBALL back after this. 

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 

 

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi holds to the position that an impeachment effort

without a clear-cut consensus of what Trump did wrong could prove

disastrous to the Democratic Party. 

 

Yet, while standing firm on not wanting to impeach him, her rhetoric on

Trump`s misconduct has changed over time.  Politico reports that Pelosi`s

language has shifted since special counsel Robert Mueller released his

report – quote – “at times channeling the left`s anger to accuse Trump of

crimes worthy of impeachment, at others, urging her most hot-blooded

colleagues to slow down and wait for more facts.”

 

I`m joined right now by Massachusetts U.S. Congressman and Democratic

presidential candidate Seth Moulton.

 

Congressman, thank you for joining us. 

 

And let`s just put it on the record.  Your view about Pelosi and her –

let`s say, this obstruction to impeachment?

 

REP. SETH MOULTON (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Well, I disagree with

her. 

 

I mean, I think she`s done a fantastic job of standing up to Trump in the

meetings she`s had at the White House, and she deserves a lot of credit for

that. 

 

But she`s made a political case for why it`s not the right time, or

whatever, to do impeachment.  How about just doing the right thing by the

Constitution?  I think the Constitution is very clear here. 

 

And all you need to do is read the – just the executive summary of the

Mueller report to understand that the ball is in our court.  And we have to

do our job.  Mueller has made it very clear that we should be having a

debate in Congress about whether the president obstructed justice. 

 

MATTHEWS:  What more do you need to know to vote for impeachment?  What

more do you, Congressman…

 

MOULTON:  Well, you know, Congress does two things.

 

MATTHEWS:  What do you need to know? 

 

MOULTON:  Congress does two things.  We debate things, and then we vote on

them.  And we should be debating them first.  Under the Republicans, we

just voted for tax cuts without having any debate.  We voted to take away

health care without having any debate. 

 

I`m not advocating for that.  I don`t think the time is right to have a

vote on impeachment, because we don`t have all the facts yet.  We don`t

even have the full unredacted version of the Mueller report.

 

MATTHEWS:  What do you need to know?  What do you need?  What do you need? 

 

MOULTON:  What we should be doing is having this debate.

 

MATTHEWS:  Do you believe he should be impeached based upon the current

evidence?

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

MOULTON:  Look, we should be having this debate in Congress.  That`s our

job. 

 

And the discussion right now is whether or not we simply have this debate. 

I voted over a year ago to have this debate before Congress and the

American people, so that we can lay out the case…

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

 

MOULTON:  … and so that people can understand whether or not the

president is guilty.

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, that`s a different argument.

 

Let me ask you.  You know that he tried – well, he fired his FBI director

for not playing ball with him on this issue of Russian involvement.  We

know he told McGahn, his White House lawyer, to fire the special counsel. 

That`s obstruction, based on the Nixon principle, definitely, that

precedent.

 

What more would you like to know about this president than he tried to

completely remove the prosecution against him? 

 

MOULTON:  We have a lot that we have got to figure out.

 

The most important conclusion of the Mueller report is the fact that Russia

interfered with our election to try to get Trump elected.  And I don`t care

whether you`re the biggest Trump fan or the biggest Trump hater.  Every

American should want to know why the greatest enemy of the United States

for the last 75 years wants this guy elected president. 

 

Mueller made that very clear, that that`s even a more important conclusion

than obstruction of justice.  We`re not going to find out these answers,

Chris, if we don`t have this debate in Congress. 

 

And that`s why it`s so important, not just from a legal perspective, not

just from a perspective – not just from a constitutional perspective of

keeping the checks and balances in our government, but also from a national

security perspective, to understand what the heck went on in this last

election and why Putin is so in favor of Trump being president of the

United States. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

 

Do you – yes or no, do you think the House will impeach Trump? 

 

MOULTON:  I think, eventually, we will get there.  I think that Speaker

Pelosi is in a tough position right now. 

 

MATTHEWS:  You do believe – what year?  What year?

 

MOULTON:  She`s trying to speak to different parts of the caucus. 

 

But I can`t tell you how many colleagues have come up to me… 

 

MATTHEWS:  What year, sir?  Yes, but what year will this happen?

 

MOULTON:  I`m sorry, what`s that, Chris?

 

MATTHEWS:  What year will they impeach?  What year?  It`s 2019.  When will

they do it? 

 

MOULTON:  Well, I mean, look, I`m not – we`re not taking bets at a bar

here, Chris.  I don`t know exactly. 

 

But I just can tell you that a lot of colleagues are changing their

opinions. 

 

MATTHEWS:  OK.  I don`t think you`re ever – I don`t think you`re ever

going to impeach. 

 

OK, I don`t agree with you.  I think you`re never going to impeach.  I

think a lot of this is smoke, left, right and center. 

 

Anyway, former Vice President Joe Biden says he no longer supports the Hyde

Amendment, which bans the use of federal money for abortions.  It`s a quick

reversal, of course, from what his campaign said just as recently as

Wednesday – that`s two days ago – where they said he still supports the

ban.  Let`s watch. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  I can`t justify leaving millions

of women without access to the care they need.  If I believe health care is

right, as I do, I can no longer support an amendment that makes that right

dependent on someone`s zip code.

 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

MATTHEWS:  Congressman, he`s reading a statement there on paper.  He just

obviously put it together, last-minute switcheroo.

 

What do you make of that in politics, where people switch like that on a

principal issue? 

 

MOULTON:  Well, I mean, Joe Biden`s a mentor and a friend, but I think he

was clearly wrong on this. 

 

And I think it`s a good thing that he`s changed his position.  But, Chris,

this is part of why I think it`s time for a new generation of leadership in

our politics, a new generation of leadership on women`s rights, on national

security, on a whole range of issues. 

 

I think that Biden was right to change his position, but he was wrong to

have the position that he did. 

 

MATTHEWS:  You say he should say the same thing about his support for the

Iraq War? 

 

MOULTON:  I think he should.  I think he should.  I mean, I think that that

was clearly wrong.  We clearly went into Iraq without examining the facts.

 

We`re – it seems like we`re about to repeat the same mistake with Iran. 

That`s certainly what John Bolton and Mike Pompeo want – want us to do in

this administration. 

 

MATTHEWS:  I agree with you.  Thank you. 

 

MOULTON:  And it`s high time for people who made this mistake in the past

to admit it, so we don`t repeat it in the future. 

 

MATTHEWS:  It`s so great to have your voice out there, as a warrior who

fought in these wars, who knows exactly what it was like in country, and

know that the B.S. that went behind these wars was awful, and it needs to

be apologized for. 

 

I agree with you.  It had nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction. 

It was about ideology, the worst possible kind, personified by John Bolton. 

 

Thank you, U.S. Congressman Seth Moulton, for serving our country.  And

thank you for coming on tonight. 

 

MOULTON:  Thanks, Chris. 

 

MATTHEWS:  Up next:  The already blurry line between Trump`s presidency and

his business interests grows even blurrier, as his kids, his grown kids,

tag along on this overseas trip, so they can advertise their golf clubs. 

 

Anyway, were they over promoting America`s interests or their business

interests?

 

We will be right back.

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 

 

President Trump`s visit to Europe was a family affair, with his four adult

children accompanying him to events ranging from a state banquet at

Buckingham Palace – there they are – to a tour of the Churchill war

rooms, and a ceremony in Normandy commemorating D-Day. 

 

But, as “The Washington Post” points out, they also documented their

exploits in Instagram posts in a modern-day slideshow of “wish you were

here” family vacation moments for the public back home.  There they are. 

 

“The Post” notes that: “If the display sought to project the Trumps as

global goodwill ambassadors for the United States, it has also raised

questions, given the president`s refusal to draw strict boundaries between

his official duties and his private business.”

 

We will get to those blurred boundaries and the ethical questions they

certainly raise coming up next in just a minute.

 

Stick with us. 

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 

 

As “The Washington Post” points out, it`s hard to top a steak dinner with

the queen of England.  But President Trump`s sons tried to keep the revelry

going during an impromptu pub crawl in Doonbeg, Ireland, where they bought

rounds of Guinness for locals and reveled in the adoration of a village

where the Trump family owns property. 

 

Anyway, Trump`s children tagging along on their father`s official trip

already cost taxpayer money, due to their Secret Service protection, but

“The Post” reports that it`s less clear how many other expenses would be

incurred by the taxpayers by that family. 

 

A spokesperson for Donald Trump Jr. told “The Washington Post” that he –

quote – “paid for the trip out of pocket.”  That`s one member did.

 

However, the visit the Trump`s golf course in Ireland and the fact that his

sons lead the Trump Organization raises an ethical question about the

separation between Trump`s official duties and the family`s business

concerns.

 

I`m joined now by Jose Aristimuno, former DNC deputy press secretary, and

Shermichael Singleton, Republican political consultant. 

 

OK, Republican political consultant… 

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

MATTHEWS:  … I have to say this.

 

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST:  You first.

 

MATTHEWS:  Every time there`s one of these peeing matches, I might call

them, between Democrat and Republican over ethics, I always say, would they

say the same thing about their own president, if it were – if it were

Jimmy Carter, or if it was Barack Obama or Bill Clinton, and he`d gone over

there and brought Chelsea with him?

 

I mean, I don`t know if there`s any comparison to this royal Trump family. 

I don`t know.

 

SINGLETON:  There`s a difference, right. 

 

I think some Republicans who are supportive of the president, they did

bring up George W. Bush`s wife, who had one of the daughters come along

with her, I think, to three foreign visits.  She was a college student at

the time. 

 

President Obama…

 

MATTHEWS:  But still living at home.

 

SINGLETON:  President Obama`s two girls were minors at the time. 

 

The issue here with President Trump`s kids, Chris, is that there are some

blurred lines here, because, as you just stated, they are running a private

business.  We need to know if they really did pay for this themselves or if

we, the taxpayers, are paying for this. 

 

And if they are, they need to reimburse the American taxpayer.

 

MATTHEWS:  Jose, should we find out whether Donald Trump, when he was

buying rounds of Guinness – no problem with that – was he writing that

off for his business?  I mean, that`s a question I want to know.

 

Is this guy keeping the tab and go, I can write this off for the golf

course?

 

JOSE ARISTIMUNO, FORMER DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE DEPUTY PRESS

SECRETARY:  Well, knowing the president, Chris, I think he probably did.

 

And this is the issue, though.

 

MATTHEWS:  But we will never know. 

 

ARISTIMUNO:  We will never know.

 

Even whether the trip was paid by the – by his kids or not, there`s extra

security, there`s extra hotels, there`s extra money that was used by the

American people for this trip to happen. 

 

Let me just bring you back to history.  I think it`s kind of funny.  I

think Trump, sometimes, he thinks he`s royal.

 

MATTHEWS:  Thank you!

 

ARISTIMUNO:  Because you think – if you go back in history, he wrote in

“The Art of the Deal” that his mother was a big fan of Queen Elizabeth,

right?

 

So I think he forgets.  He thinks…

 

MATTHEWS:  Jose…

 

ARISTIMUNO:  … the Trump family is the royal family.  Let`s go to

England.  Let`s bring everybody.  It doesn`t work that way. 

 

MATTHEWS:  OK. 

 

I thought from the beginning it was the Romanovs, not the Windsors. 

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

MATTHEWS:  They ended badly, of course. 

 

But the Romanovs, everything comes to – it comes – it`s an acquisition,

the election, for him.  The Electoral College victory gave him the White

House. He owns it.  It`s his.  Bring the kids in, give them jobs, put them

in charge of Middle East, put them in charge of everything, trade policy,

peace policy. 

 

It is a royal family distribution of power. 

 

SINGLETON:  Well, look, Chris, I…

 

MATTHEWS:  And that`s what`s weird about this presidency.  And he loves it. 

 

SINGLETON:  No, he does. 

 

But my issue with the president is that, again, we don`t know where the

lines are drawn. 

 

I personally would not mind if the kids went if there was transparency

that, hey, they paid for the travel, we know how much it costs, we know

what they contributed out of their own pockets. 

 

The issue is, we do not.  And that`s what creates an issue for the

president.  And knowing this, the administration should have been prepared

for the criticisms that they were going to get as a result.

 

MATTHEWS:  Do you think he was selling – Jose, was he selling his golf

course by stopping over there twice in five days in Ireland? 

 

ARISTIMUNO:  Well, what we know is, he has spent over $40 million, and the

whole thing is bankrupt.  He hasn`t made a dime. 

 

So I think he`s trying to go back there to see if he can recuperate some of

the money that he lost.  He`s a businessman.  This is what he does for a

living.  Look, if I dare to say that he`s preparing his children to maybe

run for president or do more business in the U.K. 

 

It`s silly.  Doing the D-Day ceremony, his – some of his kids were sitting

in the second row or third row, when some…

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

SINGLETON:  Ahead of some Cabinet members.

 

ARISTIMUNO:  Yes.  That`s insane. 

 

SINGLETON:  Can you imagine that? 

 

Who would ever imagine, yes, Rick Perry, the secretary of energy, actually

sitting on the third row, where Trump Jr. and Eric Trump were ahead of him. 

 

ARISTIMUNO:  Yes. 

 

SINGLETON:  What sense does that make?

 

MATTHEWS:  OK, here`s my question, bottom line, next week.

 

ARISTIMUNO:  Sure, Chris.

 

MATTHEWS:  I have a theory that Trump was working for the non-political

vote.  There are a lot of American people that are watching “Dancing With

the Stars.”  Nothing wrong with that.  They`re not political buffs, like a

lot of us. 

 

They see him over there with the royal family.  They see him acting like a

leader.  They saw him with the emperor of Japan`s family, and they get the

sense – head of state.  It`s bigger than politics.

 

These pictures, if you go to any supermarket – I go to Safeway.

 

SINGLETON:  This was smart.

 

MATTHEWS:  And let me tell you, every checkout is royal.  It`s Kate. It`s

somebody.  It`s Meghan.  People in America, the average person loves this

stuff.

 

SINGLETON:  And they pick those things up.  And this is where I give credit

to the administration, politically speaking.

 

The president has a reelection coming up.  Things right now in this country

are very tumultuous for him.  He recognizes that.  You think about those

average persons, the blue-collar person, the middle-class person who is

working hard.

 

MATTHEWS:  Just a regular person that goes to a store. 

 

SINGLETON:  Right.  They will look at that and they will say, well, hey,

the president didn`t have a bad time when he was in Britain.  He

represented the country fairly well. 

 

MATTHEWS:  He`s a head of state.

 

SINGLETON:  This is the person that we want reelected, even if we don`t

like some of the things.

 

MATTHEWS:  So, how does – excuse me – I make your point.

 

How does get a Democratic challenger, whether it`s Biden or anybody, or

it`s any of the other people running, the younger people, how do they match

that? 

 

ARISTIMUNO:  Look, there`s no question that he holds the biggest

microphone. 

 

Look, if I was rolling through Instagram, and I saw all those wonderful

pictures of the family, I would think, as you pointed out, it was a

great…

 

MATTHEWS:  They will be in the ads.  They will be in the ads for

reelection.  You watch.

 

ARISTIMUNO:  Oh, 100 percent.  There`s no question about it. 

 

Look, I think, to make a fair point is this.  Whoever is going to be the

nominee against Donald Trump has to be as fierce, has to interrupt him, and

has to be as rude as he is. 

 

SINGLETON:  If it`s Biden, I would say bring it back to normalcy.  That`s

what I would say.

 

MATTHEWS:  Great.  We got to go.  Thank you so much.

 

SINGLETON:  Thanks, Chris.

 

MATTHEWS:  Jose Aristimuno, thank you, and Shermichael Singleton. 

 

Interesting views here, very nuanced. 

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

MATTHEWS:  Up next, a look back at 2003 and the HARDBALL vault, with a

young future mayor and presidential contender.  This is going to be fun. 

 

You`re watching HARDBALL. 

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

MATTHEWS:  We started this week in Fresno, California, with a HARDBALL town

hall with Mayor Pete Buttigieg.

 

It wasn`t the first time, however, that the 2020 presidential candidate

attended a HARDBALL road show.  Take a look at this. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) 

 

MATTHEWS:  It`s not the first time that you have been on HARDBALL at a live

event. 

 

In fact, many years ago, you asked a question of a presidential candidate

who visited your college, Harvard. 

 

Here you were back in 2003, asking Dick Gephardt about young voters. 

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, 2003)

 

PETE BUTTIGIEG, STUDENT:  Congressman, why are you the only presidential

candidate not attending tomorrow`s youth-oriented Rock the Vote forum?  And

do you think young people`s votes matter in your campaign? 

 

REP. DICK GEPHARDT (D-MO):  They matter a lot.  That`s why I`m here

tonight.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

BUTTIGIEG:  First of all, I`m a lot more sympathetic to scheduling.  I was

pretty hard on him. 

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

BUTTIGIEG:  I feel bad about that now.  Wow. 

 

How did you even find that? 

 

MATTHEWS:  Well, we have one more question from – not in the audience. 

It`s a remote question.  And there they go.

 

Sir, do you have a question for the mayor? 

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

 

GEPHARDT:  Hey, Mayor Pete, you really took me seriously, didn`t you? 

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

 

MATTHEWS:  And that was live.

 

You can catch that HARDBALL town hall with Mayor Pete Buttigieg tomorrow

night at 7:00 p.m. Eastern right here on MSNBC. 

 

And that`s HARDBALL tonight.  Thanks for being with us.  Have a great

weekend. 

 

“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.

 

 

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY

BE UPDATED.

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