NY State Senate votes to release Trump’s taxes. TRANSCRIPT: 5/9/19, Hardball w/ Chris Matthews

Raja Kirshnamoorthi, David Corn, Jill Colvin, Brad Hoylman, Greg Pittman, Ted Deutch



ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST:  We have a special fallback tomorrow at NBC News,

Kate Snow and comedian, Sussie Essman, from, Yes, Curb Your Enthusiasm.  I

hope you join us again tomorrow.


Right now, it`s “HARDBALL” with Chris Matthews.


CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  Will Don Jr. take the fifth?  Let`s play



Good evening.  I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.  President Trump is out

there today defending his oldest son`s attempt to get rush and dirt on

Hillary Clinton.  Also a new report that Donald Trump Jr. could plead his

Fifth Amendment right not testify against himself on the grounds that would

incriminate him.  Last time we`ve learn that the Senate Intelligence

Committee led by Republican Senator, Richard Burr, had served the

President`s son with a subpoena.  They want to question Trump Jr. among

other things about his meeting with Russians at Trump Tower in June of

2016, a meeting he took with the promise of negative Kremlin Oppo on

Hillary Clinton.


But according to The New York Times, Trump Jr. was highly unlikely to

appear before the panel in person.  Three people close to him said, and one

person that he could invoke his Fifth Amendment rights in a written

response.  What`s an issue here are unexplained differences between what

Donald Trump told the Senate and what`s contained in the Mueller report

itself.  Specifically, the committee wants to ask Donald Trump Jr. About

his account of what he told his father about that Trump Tower meeting.


In his 2017 testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee, Trump Jr. said he

did not inform his father about the meeting beforehand.  The Mueller report

shows that Michael Cohen said otherwise, recalling that Trump Jr. told his

father that the meetings have obtained adverse information about Clinton

was moving forward.  While Cohen testified he didn`t remember if Russia was

mentioned, he said, it appeared that Trump Jr. had previously discussed a

meeting with his father.  And now, the President is defending his son and

his meeting with the Russians.




DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT:  Well, the Mueller report came out and they

said he did nothing wrong.  The only thing is it`s Oppo research.  My son

is a good person.  My son testified for hours and hours.  My son was

totally exonerated by Mueller, who frankly does not like Donald Trump, me,

this Donald Trump.


And, frankly, for my son, after being exonerated to now get a subpoena to

go again and speak again after close to 20 hours of telling everybody that

would listen about a nothing meeting, yes, I`m pretty surprised.


REPORTER:  So should he fight that?  Should he fight that subpoena?


TRUMP:  We`ll what happens.  I`m just very surprised.  I really am.




MATTHEWS:  Really now?  Well, joining ne right now is U.S. Congressman Raja

Krishnamoorthi from Illinois, who serves in the House Intelligence

Committee.  Jill Colvin is White House Reporter for the Associated Press,

David Corn, Washington Bureau Chief for Mother Jones, and Malcolm Nance is

author of The Plot To Destroy Democracy.


I have to go to the Congressman first about this because this is an amazing

development.  I mean, I shouldn`t be saying this.  A republican, Chairman

of a committee, the Intelligence Committee of the Senate, is actually

standing up to Trump, saying we`ve got a problem, we`ve got to talk to your



REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL):  This is not a partisan exercise.  This is

a republican committee chair in the Senate asking or issuing a subpoena to

Don Trump Jr. to come in and explain himself.  There is clear contradiction

in testimony about of this very important meeting in the summer of 2016 at

Trump Tower in New York City.  And he`s doing his duty.  He`s doing his

job.  He`s doing the job of trying to pursue more evidence, more

information and his counterintelligence mission as well.


MATTHEWS:  Well, this is amazing.  Malcolm, I want to get to you and

everybody on this one.  He is asking his son to come in to testify against

the old man.  Because he says if he says that the old man knew about that

meeting and meet with Veselnitskaya, the Russian Representative of the

Kremlin, up in the tower in June of 2016 and the old man said, I didn`t

know about it, well, he said my father is a liar and he`s part of this




that`s the question that I think Burr wants to discuss is, in the

counterintelligence component of the Mueller report, we haven`t seen any of

that.  We don`t know about the methodologies the Russians were using.  And

that might be what he is trying to assess out.  Did the Russians use these

techniques to get to Donald Trump and did Donald Trump actually finally add

that missing part of the game.


MATTHEW:  This is your line of the country, the counterintelligence part of

this, the fact that Russians were up to something.  Our side, Americans,

through the hands of the Trump, played ball with them.



And we`ve got to keep sight of what the big picture is here, because the

Trump keep saying over and over again, we got nothing out of this meeting. 

That`s not the issue.  The issue is they were told that the Russians wanted

to help the Trump campaign.  And what did they say?  Donald Trump Jr.,

famously, I love it.  This meeting was a signal, intentional or not, from

the Trump campaign to the Russians, if you intervene in this election, we

don`t mind.  So if Donald Trump, Sr. knows about this, it implicates him in

basically giving a green light to the Russians to do what you are going to



This meeting happened a week before the Russians started leaking

information they had stolen from the democrats, a week before.  They must

have felt pretty good that they could get away with that.


MATTHEW:  How important is this, Jill, to get to the truth about what the

testimony from Donald Jr. about that meeting and his father`s knowledge




important.  But I think we also have to keep in mind here is that it`s also

illegal to lie to Congress.  And this isn`t the only example where they`re

inconsistencies between Don Jr.`s testimony and what was said in the

Mueller report and testimony given in front of Senate committees, not just

this Trump Tower meeting but also the extent to which Don Jr. discussed the

Moscow Trump Tower project in Moscow.  Michael Cohen telling committees

that, in fact, they talked about it much more frequently than Don Jr.

admitted when he was speaking to the House committee.


MATTHEWS:  Well, by standing firmly behind it, he`s subpoenaed the

President`s son, Senator Burr of North Carolina.  He`s defending Congress`s

right to fulfill its oversight responsibilities.  The Washington Post

reports that as negotiations over Trump Jr.`s testimony dragged on, Burr

became increasingly frustrated and believed that Trump Jr. was defying the

committee`s authority.


Trump allies are now directing their attacks at Bur, of course, saying that

a republican shouldn`t cross the President`s family.  What is this, The

Romanoffs again?  A person close to Trump Jr. tells NBC News, catch this

talk for – well, for gangster talk, no lawyer would ever agree to allow

their client to participate in what is obviously a P.R. stunt from a so-

called republican senator, too cowardly to stand up to his boss.  Mark

Warner and the – his boss is Mark Warner, and the rest of the resistance,

democrats, these guys sound like thugs, like characters out of a mobster

movie.  Several republican lawmakers have also filed suit and questioning

Burr`s subpoena, including House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy.


Congressman, this gets to the thing I`ve wondered about.  Well, I`m

skeptical.  Republican senators, republican members of your House are, in

fact, elected officials of the first branch of government, the Congress. 

Why don`t they stand up for the prerogatives and responsibilities of

Congress to get to the truth with their oversight role?  Why don`t they

have the integrity?  Forget whose side they are on politically.  They are

on the side of the Congress when it comes to the constitution.  And they

don`t say that.  And, finally, Burr does this.  And they treat him like he

is to be shunned in some religious community.  He should be shunned because

he did this.


KRISHNAMOORTHI:  That`s exactly right, Chris.  I have to say that there is

one other instance where actually another republican has actually called

for more information and that is actually Devin Nunes.  Nunes and Schiff,

Chairman Schiff on my committee, together, have asked for the

counterintelligence findings from the Department of Justice because we are

statutorily obligated to receive that information.


So, hopefully, there are more republicans like Mr. Nunes and Senator Burr

who actually want us to perform our constitutional duty to oversight.  At

the end of the day, this is not partisan.  This is about whether the

President is accountable to anybody.  And in this situation, I think

Senator Burr is absolutely right.  He needs to get to the bottom of what

exactly happened with regard to the conversation between Trump Jr. and his



One issue with regard to counterintelligence, I just want to point out,

which is if it is a lie, what Don Jr. has been saying with regard to the

conversation with his father and the Russians know that, that in itself is

called kompromat.  That is information that could be used against Don Jr.,

who, by the way, is the head of the Trump organization to get to his

father.  So this is something that is very serious.


MATTHEWS:  Welcome, your line.


NANCE:  Yes.  Well, the Russians know all about that meeting, right? 

Natalia Veselnitskaya, she was an agent of the – essentially the Attorney

General of Russia and was sent there on a mission to see if the Trump team

would bite at what they gave them.  We still don`t know whether they really

bit in this, took and used it.  But you know what?  Maybe Senator Burr is

finally standing up for the constitution.  Maybe it`s just one step too

much to allow Donald Trump Jr. to get away with what he said before and he

wants to put him on the record and ensure that his committee is not being

used as a tool by extension of Moscow.


MATTHEWS:  Let`s talk about the political gain and legal gain on the White

House side.  Although Donald Trump Jr. doesn`t work for his father

technically in the White House, Trump`s Acting Chief of Staff, Mick

Mulvaney, told CBS news that they should have gotten a heads-up about the






President`s son got a subpoena from a republican-led committee, I have no

difficulty in bipartisanship, but to subpoena the President of the United

States` son and not at least get a heads-up, I thought, was, let`s say, bad





MATTHEWS:  Jill, I`ve been thinking about this for weeks.  I watched

Pelosi.  I don`t think she is indifferent to this thing.  I think she is

calculating the politics.  At some point, I think she might be moved less

by the concerns about the number of seats she might endanger in 2020 in the

House to the really paramount question, will she let this president get

away with obstruction of justice, when that means obstructing Congress?


COLVIN:  Well, her language has certainly been shifting over the last

couple of days or describing the situation here as a constitutional crisis

where you have a White House that is refusing to comply with these

congressional requests.  The president has issued a blanket directive that

he doesn`t want anybody, obviously, his son included here, participating in

any of this.  And you`ve got folks on the Hill who are desperate for this

information, who are considering every tool at their disposal, talking

about finding people, talking about whether there are jails somewhere in

the Senate that you could hold people.  You don`t have to go that far just

trying to figure out what they can do.  So we`ll see.


But she still is really stuck with the idea, it seems, from her public

comments that impeachment will be bad for democrats and could compromise

the election for democrats.


MATTHEWS:  But the failure to act  – I want to go back to what you and I

have studied for years, which is this history of scandal.  Nixon went down

on Article Three, of course, because he obstructed the investigation of

Watergate, right?  Joe McCarthy went down because he obstructed the

investigation of Joe McCarthy.  That`s what actually – he couldn`t say he

didn`t abuse witnesses, they all do that.  But they could get him on

obstructing the committee investigating him.


And it seems to me if you let that picket (ph) broken, if you let them just

break your lands right in your face and say, nice try, buddy, you`re

finished, I think that gets even to the most partisan of politicians, I



CORN:  I think you`re right.  But I believe there is a story here that has

to be told.  3 percent of Americans said they read the Mueller report. 

That`s probably an overestimation, right?


MATTHEWS:  What`s the cardinal number there?  How many people?


CORN:  I don`t know.  Maybe one –


MATTHEWS:  I think you are way over.


CORN:  Yes.  1 percent read the whole report.  And if that`s –


MATTHEWS:  (INAUDIBLE) 1 percent, some of these candidates have much to



CORN:  So what was so compelling about Watergate?  Some of us are old

enough to remember.  It was a story that developed through congressional

hearings.  Now, Don Jr. probably won`t testify, and we`ll see how much Burr

will fight that, but there are other people to bring up there talk about

what happened with the campaign and how the Trump campaign aided and

abetted the Russian attack by denying it (ph).  And there are people who

they can fight to bring up on the obstruction issues, taxes, emoluments. 

You`ve got to tell the public the story and then maybe that will lead to

impeachment.  But oversight, truth first, and they need to fight to do



MATTHEWS:  Well, let`s go around that because that`s, to me, the big

question.  The fact that Mueller didn`t find a crime in taking help from a

foreign government because he wasn`t sure about the law or the knowledge of

the law by Donald Trump Jr. and the President right now, President-elect,

Congressman, the big defense of Trump is he didn`t know anything.  The

bigger defense of his son is he knows nothing.  The fact that he would know

was illegal to take money from a foreign government in a presidential

campaign.  And so that`s the thin defense he has.


But counterintelligence piece of this, the prime reason we had this

investigation, apart from all the partisanship on both sides, find out what

Russians did to us, what they could do again and what role did Americans

play with them.  And I think that`s a bigger question, the

counterintelligence question, anything we`ve looked to.  And the question

is, are we being held back from the truth right now?


KRISHNAMOORTHI:  A 100 percent.  There were 140 contacts at least between

Trump officials and Russian officials.  Even if those contacts did not rise

to the level of criminal conspiracy, what happened during those

conversations?  Was there information that would be embarrassing that would

be somehow used against these officials and endanger our national security? 

That is something that hopefully people from both sides can start to see is

very important for our long-term national interests.


And it also helps to explain like why the heck does the President keep

cozying up to Vladimir Putin.  We still don`t understand the answer to that

question.  Why does he have one hour conversation with Vladimir Putin and

he then recites to the rest of the world that Vladimir Putin doesn`t want

to have anything to do with Venezuela when the Intelligence Community says

with one voice that, yes, the Russians are involved in Venezuela.


So this is really something that we still are trying to figure out and

getting to the counterintelligence aspects of the information that has been

gathered that we should receive that we haven`t received yet starts to

answer those questions.


MATTHEWS:  Well, again, the power and the drama of a testimony for maybe

over several days from Robert Mueller on national television, where he`s

asked about the counterintelligence sub.  I want to go to Malcolm on that,

Congressman.  That would be, to me, great theater and great history.  It

will be recording history in real-time.


NANCE:  Not just recording history, we have an obligation to history.  I

mean, I`m a strict constructionist when it comes down to exercising the

ability to assess out (ph) what could be crimes or could be malfeasance on

the part of the government.  Robert Mueller started this investigation, or,

actually, Jim Comey started it, as a counterintelligence investigation to

see if Russia was influencing and impact our elections.  Well, maybe we

don`t need to see it as a theater.  Maybe we need to see it as the great

education of the American public as to what a foreign power has done to us. 

And if we don`t do it, they will do it again.


MATTHEWS:  I think we have to read Russian Roulette from your book, because

I think this kind of history is already there.  And I think people who want

to find out what the Russians did to us and what we did with them is

paramountly important to us going into 2020 and going into the future.


Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi, than k you so much, our democrat from

Illinois.  Jill Colvin, you`re great.  I sound like Trump, but you really

are.  Thank you, David Corn.  I love Associated Press Reporters because of

the last absolute real straight reporting that you get from the people who

don`t make any money.  Thank you, Malcolm Nance.  I`m just kidding.  Thank

you, David Corn.


Up next, the secrets of Trump`s taxes.  Report says he lost more than a

billion dollars, I sound like Austin Powers, a billion dollars in the late

80s and early 90s.  What else is he hiding?  A New York State lawmaker is

trying to uncover the truth here.  He joins us next here.


Plus, the republicans` solution to deadly gun violence in schools, arm the

teachers?  In the aftermath of the Parkland massacre in Florida, they want

to put more guns into schools.  Much more to come tonight.  Stay with us.




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.


Yesterday, the state Senate of New York passed a bill that would make it

easier for U.S. congressional committees to obtain the state tax returns of

any New Yorker.  Get it?  Is this about Donald Trump?


Well, the bill was passed along party lines and would amend an existing law

to allow the commissioner of the state Department of Taxation and Finance

up in Albany to release any state tax returns that are requested by leaders

of the U.S. House Ways and Means Committee, the U.S. Senate Finance

Committee, or the U.S. Joint Committee on Taxation, all in Washington. 


The committees would have to show that the request would serve a specified

and legitimate legislative purpose and that the requesting committee has

made a written request to the U.S. secretary of the treasury for related

federal returns or return information. 


The bill only applies to state returns, and not to the federal tax returns,

which are currently at the center of the standoff now between the secretary

of the treasury, Steve Mnuchin, and the chairman of the House Ways and

Means Committee, Richard Neal.


On Monday, Secretary Mnuchin refused that committee`s request for six years

of the president`s tax returns, that despite the law stated the secretary -

- quote – “shall furnish” the requested information to the committee. 


Well, the New York legislation still needs the approval of the Democratic-

controlled state Assembly.  Governor Andrew Cuomo, a Democrat also, has

said he would sign it as long as the law applies to everyone and not just



For more, I`m joined by one of the bill`s sponsors, Democratic state

Senator Brad Hoylman.


Thank you so much, Senator.


A couple things the average person out there wants to know.  If you do

succeed and get this through the other house, you get this through the

governor – and that`s probable – will that give us a good sense of the

answers to the questions we all have about Donald Trump`s – A, his federal

tax payments over the years?  Does he pay any?


Two, what are his overseas dealings to Deutsche Bank and those other

concerns?  How much will we find out through the state returns? 


BRAD HOYLMAN (D), NEW YORK STATE SENATOR:  Well, we really don`t know,



But I think there`s a lot of information in the state returns.  We know

that state returns generally do have a lot of the federal information.  So

I expect it will be very useful to the House Ways and Means Committee

should we pass this bill.


MATTHEWS:  Let me talk about the politics of this.  It`s a party-line vote

in the New York – up in Albany.  How did that go?  Did they say – I mean,

we all – you`re an attorney, of course.


And I have wondered, the term bill of attainder.  Is this simply aimed at

one person?  That`s unconstitutional.  Tell me how you got it through your

House – the Assembly.


HOYLMAN:  Well, actually…


MATTHEWS:  The state Senate.


HOYLMAN:  In the Senate, Chris, they actually said the bill was too broad. 


So they laid the case for us that it`s not a bill of attainder, because it

applies to everyone.  And there`s no punishment involved.  So I feel very

confident that this is very, very firm on constitutional grounds. 


New York has every right to pass any law it wants, if it`s constitutional,

around tax privacy and sharing tax information with other states and with

the federal government.  In fact, we share tax files all the time of state

residents with the federal government and with other states. 


MATTHEWS:  OK, let`s do what Trump doesn`t do.  Let`s look down the road,

step by step, consequences. 


You pass it through the Senate.  You have already done that.  You pass it

into House – the Assembly up there, the lower house.  You will probably be

able to do that.  You pass it through Andrew Cuomo.  He says he will do it. 


Then you have the operational challenge.  Somebody takes these returns,

puts it physically in a manila envelope of some size.  They`re complicated

returns.  Walks them down to Richard Neal, the chairman of the House Ways

and Means Committee.  Is that physically how it happens?  From Albany to

Washington, his state tax returns are delivered by hand or whatever?


HOYLMAN:  Yes, I`m assuming it`ll be done that way. 


I mean, again, the state of New York shares tax returns with the federal

government all the time, and it shares it with other states.  So there`s

definitely a process in place. 


I`m sure…


MATTHEWS:  Would it be Xeroxed?  I`m serious about these questions. 




MATTHEWS:  Because I want to see how Trump will stop you in your tracks. 




MATTHEWS:  He`s got lawyers.  He is lawyered up the kazoo.  He`s got

lawyers everywhere.  Where do you see him throwing a roadblock against you? 

Where do you see it happening?


He sues you?  He enjoins you?  He says the state commissioner up in Albany

cannot deliver the taxes to the Congress, right?  Don`t you expect that

from him? 


HOYLMAN:  I think we have seen, as a private citizen and as a political

figure, he`s very litigious. 


But, again, I think New York has every right to pass laws around tax

privacy and the sharing of tax documents.  That`s what we do all the time

as a state.  And that`s what other states do with the federal government as



MATTHEWS:  What do you expect to happen if he sues? 




MATTHEWS:  Because he`s not going to let this – he doesn`t get anything –

we just spent the first part of the show talking about his son won`t

testify on something he says never happened.  OK, fine, but why don`t you

let him testify?


He says no to – it`s his deal.  As you just allowed, he`s a litigious guy. 

And he will – he will litigate. 


HOYLMAN:  He will, but I think we`re prepared for that in New York.  We

have a very fine attorney general in Tish James.  And we also have the firm

grounding of the fact that we do this all the time. 


The federal government shares tax information with these congressional

committees.  It`s Donald Trump`s administration, as you have noted, that is

currently breaking the law by not sharing the tax information of Trump with

the three committees that have the legal authority to request that



And let me just…




MATTHEWS:  The 1924 statute.


I want to ask you about this – about this state.




MATTHEWS:  Do you believe he`s under audit? 


HOYLMAN:  I have no idea, Chris.  I mean, who knows what to believe these

days when it comes to his tax returns?  One day, he says he`s under audit

and that`s why he`s not releasing them.  The other day, he`s just



So I really do believe we need some clarity, which is why I think this bill

is so important.  It`s important for New Yorkers not to just stand on the

sidelines as we face this constitutional showdown.  We can actually make a

difference here in the state of New York, as the home of Donald Trump, as

the home for many of his companies, and as a legislature that really

believes that no one is above the rule of law. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, I think your constituents agree with that, since they

voted 87 percent against him.  I don`t think they`re going to change their

minds because of this.


Good luck with your effort.  It sounds like it`s going to happen, based

upon your optimism. 


Anyway, thank you so much, New York State Senator Brad Hoylman of New York



HOYLMAN:  Thanks.


MATTHEWS:  Up next:  The Republican governor of Florida makes it legal for

more teachers – well, here it comes, guns for more guns.  Solve the gun

problem with more guns.  Is this the best way to keep our children safe? 

I`m not sure it`s going to keep the teachers safe. 


We`re going to talk to a teacher from Stoneman Douglas High School in

Parkland, Florida.  Remember that one?  What a horrible scene that has



You`re watching HARDBALL. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


As communities in Colorado and North Carolina continue to mourn following

the latest deadly shootings of just a few days ago, lawmakers in Florida

say the solution is more guns in schools. 


Florida Governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill yesterday expanding a program

put in place shortly after last year`s Parkland massacre down there that

allows some school employees with roles outside the classroom, like coaches

and librarians, to carry guns.  Want your tennis coach armed?


This new measure now makes all teachers eligible to carry guns in the

classroom.  So it`s now everybody in – the classroom teacher in front of

you has a gun.  School districts will still need to approve which teachers

would be allowed to participate.  And those teachers would need to undergo

firearms training, a psychiatric evaluation, and a background check.


For more, I`m joined by Greg Pittman, a history teacher at Marjory Stoneman

Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. 


It`s an honor to have you on, sir.



evening, Chris. 


MATTHEWS:  And Democratic Congressman Ted Deutch of Florida as well.


Well, let`s have you do the talking.  We all have our – everybody watching

has an attitude about this conversation, everybody.  There`s nobody who

isn`t thinking and feeling about this. 


You`re a teacher.  You`re in a classroom.  Talk about the feelings between

teacher and student and what having a gun in somebody`s pocket or holster

would do to that feeling. 


Go ahead.


PITTMAN:  Chris, thank you. 


Since we have had the shooting that took place on February 14 last year, we

have actually had this discussion quite a bit with our students.  We have

actually had debates with students in the classroom.


And the overwhelming majority of my students, of our teachers completely

disagree with this decision by the state legislature and by the governor to

increase guns in the classroom.  It is a bad idea.


And a minuscule minority, just a handful of teachers and a handful of

students, are remotely interested in doing this.  Just a bad idea all

across the board.


MATTHEWS:  Let me go to the congressman.


How does that – how does that echo or not with your people in your

district, because you`re that same district? 




People think this is a horrible idea.  There`s a reason that 70 percent of

teenagers and their parents think it`s a terrible idea nationwide, 80

percent of teachers.


MATTHEWS:  What do they say to you about anecdotally why they think it`s a

bad idea?


What do they imagine?


DEUTCH:  They`re already concerned about school violence.


And the idea that we`re going to address school violence by putting more

guns into the school, by creating more possibilities that something can go

wrong and their kids could be exposed to gun violence, they understand it`s

just an awful idea. 


It`s a ridiculous way to approach a really terrible problem. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, let me go to you on this one, Greg, because you know what

you`re talking about.


I have imagined – I have never taught in a very tough neighborhood where

the kids really give lip to the teacher.  They`re not afraid of the

teachers.  They`re not afraid of their parents.  What happens if you say to

the kid, go down to the hallway and go to the vice principal`s office and

check in, I`m suspending you for three days, something that really bothers

the kid?


You got a gun in your holster.  What is that situation like?  You`re armed

and you`re telling a kid, I have authority over you.  Take it. 


PITTMAN:  Again, I have been in some tougher schools.  I`m in Douglas now,

so that`s not quite the situation, but exactly. 


The kid may challenge you.  And depending on the experience level of the

teacher, their blood pressure may rise, and they may make a mistake, and/or

the children or a number of students could rush the teacher.  Say it`s in a

holster on the teacher.  They could overpower the teacher and get the gun. 


As the congressman said, there are many, many, many bad outcomes that can

come of this and very few positive outcomes. 


One other thing that – the reason we`re in schools is for our students to

learn.  And the number one thing that the students have told me that they

would be worried about was, where would the gun be? 


And I can see the level of the – my students from what they were prior to

the shooting and after the shooting.  They are not performing at the level

that they should be.  They are having enough trouble as it is.  And I know,

if there was a gun in the classroom, as I`m sure other students, they`re

all going to wonder, where is the gun, who`s got the gun?


And that would be the number one thing on their mind, as opposed to being

there for education.  And as far as, if this is truly for safety, this is

not the way to go.  This is only to sell more guns.  It has absolutely

nothing to do with safety, because would you want to a person with only 144

hours of training to be the one carrying a gun, when we had a deputy

officer with the sheriff`s department, 33 years of experience, and he was

unable to use his gun, being properly trained?


How can those of us with minimal training be expected to use a gun

properly, shoot the proper kid if a kid has it, et cetera, et cetera, et





PITTMAN:  And I`m a gun owner.  Just – it`s a terrible idea. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, here`s NPR – or actually not NPR – NRA spokesperson –

big difference – Dana Loesch on what`s to blame for the recent school

shootings.  And, no surprise, she says it`s not guns. 





wrong with our youth, everybody.  There`s something that is happening in

our culture, because we have always had firearms, but we have never had

this many incidents.


We have a number of things that are taking place.  But what we are lacking

is a respect for life.  What we are lacking are clear boundaries for our

youth.  We`re lacking that solid family home.




MATTHEWS:  That`s an argument to have more guns?  That`s an argument to

have less guns.  If we have a troubled generation, that`s no excuse to say,

oh, let them have more guns. 


DEUTCH:  Yes, we have got – we have got – we`re raising this generation



Chris, kids are learning run, hide, fight.  From the time they`re learning

their ABCs, they`re already worried.  They`re afraid – their parents are

afraid. And now we`re going to inject more guns and create more reason for



They look for – they look for every reason, except the gun, to address the

gun violence problem. 


MATTHEWS:  Why did she bring in abortion rights?  I`m sorry.  It`s not –

everything isn`t related.  Respect for life, I know what she was pushing.




DEUTCH:  Everything – because everything – everything other than guns we,

should be taking a look at, unless it means more guns. 


That`s always the response.  That was the response of Governor DeSantis

here.  There`s a reason that he didn`t publicize the fact that he signed

this bill, that they just sent out a notice in the middle of a day.


They understand how unpopular this is.  And they understand what the

threats are to our kids. 


MATTHEWS:  Let me go back to Greg.


It`s just an honor to have you on, because a friend of mine teaches high

school down in Tampa.  I think you guys are the front lines in life. 

You`re greeting the new generation.  You`re there all day. 


What is – what`s your reaction to that NRA spokesperson about the younger

generation being troubled?  And you said it your own way.  What is going on

with the kids you teach that you notice is different from the past?  I`m



PITTMAN:  I think one of the things it is, is definitely a lack of

responsibility that they`re learning from our president, they`re learning

from our elected leaders, perhaps their parents and others.


They`re learning that you don`t have to live up to your responsibilities,

that you can say or do anything and get away with it.  And I think that we

need to teach them that they need to be responsible for themselves, they

need to be responsible for each other. 


There is a decision that you make when you choose to use a gun and to shoot

it.  And I think this whole question of our elected leaders – fortunately,

Congressman Deutch has been a – in my opinion, certainly a positive

leader, and certainly positive in this area as far as gun safety. 


But I think that the representative – I wasn`t going to mention her name,

because I have been attacked by her so many times on so many things,

because I express my opinion. 


She`s only about to sell more guns.  That`s all this whole thing is about

is selling guns.  If they were truly interested in what teachers thought,

there would have actually been some teachers on this – the commission that

studied this safety thing. 


There were only police officials, sheriff`s types, or a few other elected

officials.  There were no teachers at all.  The teachers overwhelmingly are

opposed to this.  The students are overwhelmingly opposed to this.  And yet

they pass it anyway.


Who are they supposed to listen to?  So it`s going to be interesting when

more of our students continue to get elected, because one of the things

that I do teach in the classroom and I can guarantee my students will be

doing in 2020 is voting.


And they will be voting along this issue.  They`re going to be looking and

going to be educated about our leaders and what they have done or not done,

what they have and haven`t voted for.  And I can only say that you need to

be aware or beware of your vote or your lack of votes, because these kids

are going to be voting, as they did in 2018 in greater numbers.


We saw changes, and I think we will see even greater changes in 2020.


MATTHEWS:  Greg Pittman, thank you so much for your service to your

students and the country. 


PITTMAN:  Thank you. 


MATTHEWS:  Thank you. 


And, Congressman Ted Deutch, thank you again, sir, for coming up here. 


DEUTCH:  Thank you. 


MATTHEWS:  Up next:  What`s more important in 2020, policies that resonate

with voters or getting Trump out of office?  It looks like it`s not so much

flavor of the month right now.  It`s who can take Trump down.


More after this. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


As he launched his presidential campaign, former Vice President Joe Biden

cast President Trump as a threat to this country and its character.  And

while Biden was routinely taking the fight directly to the president,

several of Biden`s Democratic rivals had taken the former VP`s queue now,

and elevating their own attacks on the president in the wake of the Mueller

report and the president`s ensuing standoff with Congress. 


Here they go. 





political inconvenience exception to the United States Constitution.  If

any other human being in this country had done what`s documented in the

Mueller report, they would be arrested and put in jail. 


BETO O`ROURKE (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  If you wondered whether there

was obstruction of justice, when the president fired the principal

investigator into what happened in 2016, James Comey, the director of the

FBI, when he tweets in broad daylight to Jeff Sessions, his attorney

general, to end the Russia investigation, there can be no doubt that that

is obstruction of justice.  Clear as day. 


JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  I think the real crisis is he`s

breaking down all the barriers across the board.  In the time he`s come in

office, he`s attempted to diminish every branch of government.  It`s all

about, you know, taking down the guardrails of the abuse of power. 




MATTHES:  Well, one candidate in particular has made some especially

pointed attacks on Trump in recent days.  We`ll tell you who it is.  That`s

coming up, next. 







United States of America has a profound amount of power that comes with

that microphone and the bully pulpit, and we can no longer afford to have a

president of the United States who uses that position with the intent to

divide, with the intent to sow hate and division, with the intent to

belittle and to beat down. 




MATTHEWS:  Pretty impressive, don`t you think? 


Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


That was, of course, 2020 presidential candidate, Senator Kamala Harris of

California, speaking in Michigan early this week.  Senator Harris has

dramatically stepped up her attacks on Trump just in the last week. 


“The New York Times” reports on her new strategy, writing: Two recent

events Ms. Harris`s insistent questioning of Mr. Barr at the Senate

Judiciary Committee hearing last week and Joe Biden`s multiday spat with

Mr. Trump have been clarifying moments for Ms. Harris and her aides,

demonstrating the value of elevating her voice of opposition to the

president and seeking direct confrontation with the White House.  Her

campaign is also drawing an internal polling of early nominating states

showing the primary voters are consumed with beating Trump. 


For more, I`m joined by Jason Johnson, politics editor at theroot.com, and

Susan Del Percio, Republican strategist.


Susan, I want to start with you. 


It seems to me, a couple of rules are at play here.  One, always shoot up

in politics.  I don`t like the ballistic reference, but you never shoot



But if you got a target like the president, you go after him.  You don`t go

after somebody ranked in 1 percent in the polls now.  Why not do what she`s

doing, take on Trump?  Biden is doing it and it`s working? 


SUSAN DEL PERCIO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST:  And that clip that you showed

leading into the segment, Chris, was perfect.  She`s spot on.  She`s got

the right temperament right now.  And it does follow her questioning of

Barr last week, Attorney General Barr. 


And I think this is – she may have found her lane for now.  But we are –

it`s still very early.  I think she has put herself in a front-runner

standing so she just has to keep up her method of introducing proposals and

attacking the president when you see it, when it`s necessary, which

unfortunately for us it`s practically every day. 


But she has a good strategy.  I don`t think she needs a reset.  And I think

what we`re really going to see her shine is during the debates on this

network later next month. 


MATTHEWS:  When I started in politics, I learned a trick, which is if you

want to run for Congress, start talking to the press like you are





MATTHEWS:  Talk about local issues like a pipeline disaster, talk as if you

are in office now.  Talk like you are running against Trump.  Don`t act

like a little kid at the little kids table and there is 30 of you. 


JOHNSON:  Yes.  Well, she`s doing the thing as Joe Biden.  Like, this is

look, the rest of these people, they are trying to be my VP.  I`m going

head to head with the guy – 


MATTHEWS:  Well, she knows she`s got VP in her pocket. 


JOHNSON:  Exactly. 


MATTHEWS:  That`s what I think.


JOHNSON:  What she`s aiming properly.  And here`s what – look, we know

that there is sexism in voters and different things, but Kamala Harris has

also tapped into something that we haven`t seen.  She is a woman who can

actively attack men in the public sphere, and people root for her. 


MATTHEWS:  Why isn`t Trump shooting back? 


JOHNSON:  Because she`s a black woman.  He is terrified. 


MATTHEWS:  How so?  Give me – OK, I`ll pass (ph) that.


JOHNSON:  Because when he`s talking – he will go after Oprah Winfrey,

right, because she`s a celebrity.  He`ll go after Maxine Waters – 


MATTHEWS:  Someone her size.


JOHNSON:  Exactly.  She`s got some scandals. 


But if you look at Michelle Obama and Susan Rice, the one kryptonite that

Donald Trump has faced is black women.  He would never go after Stacey

Abrams because he knows that that is a constituency that will be his doom

in 2020. 


MATTHEWS:  Do you think? 


JOHNSON:  Yes, oh, definitely. 


MATTHEWS:  Susan, what`s your response to that?  Just the identity part of

this, African-American women – I am being told all the time, the

Democratic fight will be dominant in their importance, because they will

look for somebody perhaps like themselves in the same group who are

African-American women or they`ll pick somebody they are damn sure they

want to beat Trump with.  I mean, they will be strategic like everybody

else, maybe more so. 


Why is it that there a fear that clearly he went after all the B`s the

other day, Trump, he hit all the B`s.  He went Biden, Bernie, Beto,

Buttigieg, and he skipped her, he skipped this time, Elizabeth.  What`s he

up to?


DEL PERCIO:  Well, this time.  That`s a great time.  I mean, he skipped her

this time. 


But if you remember, he was taken back with her announcement.  He mentioned

what a great – how big the crowds were for her and how well she did. 




DEL PERCIO:  So, that was an indication that he respects her.  As we know

with women, he respects like Nancy Pelosi even if he disagrees, he is not

apt to go after the same way.  But – and plus, I think he is – it would

be a disaster because he has – all he does is know how to demean, and I

think it would come off just horribly if he went after any woman at this



MATTHEWS:  Someday, we got to figure out him and Tiger Woods.  That speech

giving him the Medal of Freedom was the most astounding memory I`ve ever

seen.  He knows every aspect, every hole of that guy`s career, and it was

true majestic devotion to the guy.  He looks up to that guy because he`s

trying to play golf and he`s the best guy in the world. 


DEL PERCIO:  Too bad he doesn`t feel that way about our country, Chris. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, you make an interesting point.  I`m just trying to say

something particularly you`re so grand. 


As I just mentioned, President Trump mocked several potential 2020 rivals

at a rally in Panama City.  It`s – well, it`s the Redneck Rivera –

anyway.  Let`s watch, last night. 





Buttigieg.  They say edge edge.  He`s got a great chance, doesn`t he? 


He`ll be great, he`ll be great.  Representing us against President Xi of

China.  That will be great.  That will be great.  I want to be in that room

and watch that one. 


And Beto.  Beto.  Boy, is he falling like a rock?  What the hell happened

to Beto? 


We`ve got some real beauties.  Crazy Bernie.  He had – a choice between

Sleepy Joe and Crazy Bernie.  And I`ll take any of them.  Let`s just pick

somebody, please, and let`s start this thing. 




MATTHEWS:  Panama City, Florida.  There he was, big crowd last night.  What

do you think?  What`s he planning the B`s for?


JOHNSON:  It`s weak sauce.  Well, again, it`s the white guys because he

thinks he is going to face a white guy next year and like I said, I think

he`s afraid of facing someone like Harris, not that he doesn`t think he can

beat her, but I think he would take a lot of damage in attacking her the

way he would some of these other people. 


And let`s be honest – this is a president who has no discipline.  This is

a president who has no attention span.  So, the top four or five people are

going to be the people he pays attention.  He`s going to say something

offensive about Bernie.  He`s going to say something offensive – he will

probably make a homophobic slur at some point about Buttigieg, I would not

doubt it, coming out of this president. 


MATTHEWS:  Do you think he`s already doing that? 


JOHNSON:  I`m sure, he is dancing right next to it and he will be there at

the first debate.  This president has no discipline and no couth. 


MATTHEWS:  Susan, what do you think about his strategy?  I think Trump is

thinking ahead.  He wants the election now because he thinks he can win

right now.  The economy is good pretty now. 


He did say let`s do it now.  Bring them on.  I think he wants to vote now. 

He`s not going to get it.  He gets the vote in a year and a half, but what


DEL PERCIO:  You`re absolutely right, Chris.  And the thing about going

after Beto, let`s not forget, earlier this week, we saw a lot of polls come

out that had Beto beating Trump by double-digits.  So, that irks the

president.  That`s the way the president works.  He just – he gets –

someone gets under his skin and he will keep going and going and going. 


And I do – I agree.  I think that he will continue to demean his opponents

as long as he can get away with it.  And that will basically be what we`ll

see for the next 18 months. 


MATTHEWS:  I think part of it loving this list.  He thinks he can beat

everyone of them.  Maybe, he probably he can have an easy time with Joe

Biden and the states he won last time.  He may not get them again. 


Thank you, Jason Johnson.  You are smiling.  I like when you agree with me. 


Susan Del Percio, if you were here, I`d like to know if you agree with me. 


Up next, a sign from the Vatican that the relentless moral distress of

sexual abuse in the Catholic Church could be facing finally a reckoning. 


You are watching HARDBALL.




MATTHEWS:  We have waited, we have waited and we have waited.  How long

members of the Catholic Church have waited for our church to strike back

against the sexual exploitation of our children?  For years, the lofty

words of common, the excuses, and, oh, yes, the endless cover ups and

always the questions of why?  Why is the church, which embodies our faith,

embraced their secrets?  What is it that leads men who preach to us from

the left, from the light of the altar, to hide dark secrets from the

sacristy?  Is it fear of discovery? 


Well, hours ago came a sign from the Vatican that this relentless moral

distress could end.  Pope Francis has just issued today, a new church law

that all 415,000 Catholic priests and all 660,000 nuns around the world are

required to report any case of clergy sexual abuse or cover up to church

authorities.  They are required to report old case of sexual wrongdoing as

well and any old cover-ups. 


Quote: In order that these phenomena and all their forms never happen

again, the pope declared today, a continuous and profound conversion of

hearts is needed, attested by concrete and effective actions that involve

everyone in the church. 


Well, let`s hope this all leads to change. 


And that`s HARDBALL for now. 


“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now. 






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