Tim Ryan plays Hardball. TRANSCRIPT: 4/10/19. Hardball w/ Chris Matthews.

John Brennan, David Cicilline, Cynthia Alksne, Dan Kildee, Tim Ryan, Neera Tanden, David Frum

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST:  And you can also always email us at ari@msnbc.com.


That does it for me.  Thank you as always for watching.  “HARDBALL” with

Chris Matthews is up next.


CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  Watching the Russians?  Let`s play HARDBALL.


Good evening.  I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.  Nothing concentrates the

mind, wrote Samuel Johnson, like the thought of an imminent hanging. 

Donald Trump fairing the imminent release of the Mueller report that

expected to portray his campaign as a dupe of Russia, not to mention

deliver alarming new evidence of obstruction is determined to somehow

change the subject.


Today, he called the Mueller investigation an attempted coup and encouraged

the Justice Department to make war on it.




DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT:  This was an attempted coup.  This was an

attempted takedown of a president.  And we beat them.  What I`m most

interested in is getting started, hopefully, the Attorney General, he

mentioned it yesterday, he`s doing a great job, getting started on going

back to the origins of exactly where this all started because this was an

illegal witch hunt and what they did was treason.  What they did was

terrible.  What they did was against our constitution and everything we

stand for.  So, hopefully, that will happen.




MATTHEWS:  Well, it now appears that Attorney General William Barr is set

to deliver on the President`s wishes.  Yesterday, Barr said, he intends to

review the conduct of the investigators who opened the Mueller

investigation.  And according to Bloomberg News, he`s assembled a team to

do just that.


Today, in his testimony before the Senate Appropriations Subcommittee,

Attorney General Barr appeared to endorse the widespread republican and

Trumpian allegation that the Trump campaign was improperly surveilled or to

use the Trumpian term, spied upon.


Here`s the Attorney General using that very term.




WILLIAM BARR, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL:  So we want to make sure that during -

- I think spying on a political campaign is a big deal.  I`m not suggesting

that those rules were violated, but I think it`s important to look at that. 

And I`m not just – I`m not talking about the FBI necessarily but

intelligence agencies more broadly.


SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN (D-NH):  So you`re not suggesting though that spying



BARR:  I don`t – well, I guess you can – I think spying did occur.  Yes,

I think spying did occur.


SHAHEEN:  Well, let me –


BARR:  But the question is whether it was predicated, adequately

predicated.  And I`m not suggesting it was inadequately predicated, but I

need to explore that.




MATTHEWS:  Well, Barr is careful to say he`s not alleging that anything

improper actually took place.  He even says that the spying, as he put it,

could have been warranted.  But Barr still used the very term that the

President has deliberately thrown around to smear law enforcement so

relentlessly, by the way, for the last couple of years.  As The Washington

post points out, that is a highly disputed term when it comes to what the

FBI did relative to the Trump campaign in 2016.  And it lends legitimacy to

what, at this point, is essentially a Trump conspiracy theory.


I`m joined now by John Brennan, the former Director of the CIA under

President Obama.  Director, spying, why is Trump and his cronies, including

the new A.G. used that word?



disappointed in what Attorney General said today about spying when he was

referring to the investigation that was predicated certainly and that the

FBI was trying to understand exactly what the Russians were doing.


U.S. intelligence agencies were spying against foreign adversaries so that

we can understand the threat to our national security.  But for the

Attorney General, to imply or to say that they were spying domestically, he

knows the language and he knows the terminology and knows what it connotes,

which is an extra legal activity taking place when, in fact, the FBI and

CIA and others were trying to understand just what the Russians were doing. 

And we know now it is incontrovertible that the Russians were trying to

influence the outcome of the 2016 election.


MATTHEWS:  Now, according to the language of this guy, Barr, I don`t really

like him much lately because of this game he`s playing here, a state

trooper working at night along a state highway and he`s watching and he

sees that somebody is going over 70 miles an hour.  Is he spying on the

cars or is he doing his job?  This word spying is so ludicrously used here.


BRENNAN:  Yes.  And he thought about that question and answer and he did

say there was spying.  And so for – and he`s former Attorney General as

well.  It`s not as though he`s just a new Attorney General.  He is steeped

in the law and he should be.  And he should know the difference between a

thorough FBI predicated investigation and spying against a foreign



MATTHEWS:  To use another American word, is he a toady?  Is he saying the

kind language that Trump wants to hear him use?


BRENNAN:  Well, unfortunately, I think over the past several weeks, I have

been disappointed in Attorney General Barr.  I had higher expectations for

him.  He shaped the narrative after the Mueller report.  He, in fact, then

also had this testimony today that I think was very carefully nuanced as a

way to try to support Donald Trump`s positions.  So he acted more like a

personal lawyer for Donald Trump today rather than the Attorney General.


MATTHEWS:  Here`s what I don`t understand about the Trump-Barr strategy. 

If it comes out next week, as it`s been reported, that the Mueller report,

when we get a good look at it, a decent look at it, will show alarming

evidence of obstruction of justice that the Russians did manipulate the

Trump campaign, what good is it to go back and fill this out (ph) that they

shouldn`t have had this investigation when it bears fruit, when it`s clear

it did dig up some awful stuff?  What`s the strategy?


BRENNAN:  Yes.  Well, look at the people who have been indicted and have

been convicted in terms of what they did wrong.  And so it`s unclear to me

what he was trying to do.  I also I think it was unfortunate that he

arrogated to himself the determination about whether obstruction of justice

did occur on the part of Donald Trump.


MATTHEWS:  He said he didn`t, just like that.


BRENNAN:  Well, I think we have to understand more about the basis for Bob

Mueller not making a determination there.  I think Bob Mueller is a

conservative individual and recognizes the Department of Justice policy is

not to indict a sitting president.  So I think he really wanted to have the

Congress and the American people make that determination about the

transgressions involved.


MATTHEWS:  That`s what I think.  Anyway, discussing the Russian probe last

year, former Director of National Intelligence, James Clapper, was

extremely cautious about his choice of words on the activities of law





UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Was the FBI spying on Trump`s campaign?



not.  They were spying on – a term I don`t particularly like, but on what

the Russians were doing, trying to understand were the Russians

infiltrating, trying to gain access, trying to get leverage and influence.




MATTHEWS:  So the FBI is trying to figure out what`s going on with the

Russians because of all these problems, where this noise we`re hearing from

Papadopoulos and all the rest of them about something going on over there,

it`s spying.  And I`m just wondering, spying seems to be perfect word if

you believe in the deep state coming against Trump.  If you believe these

awful people that worked for the federal government sworn to public service

for their careers, all are the bad guys, then you attach a word that

they`re not like law enforcement but spies.


BRENNAN:  Yes.  In the summer of 2016, the CIA and FBI and NSA worked very

closely together to try to understand as much as possible about what the

Russians were doing.  And those agencies that have a a foreign intelligence

responsibility carried out their responsibilities and authorities to the

best of their ability.  And the FBI, which has the domestic role, was

carrying out its investigation and its counterintelligence investigation. 

And I had many conversations with Jim Comey just to make sure that the CIA

and FBI are working together, not doing anything inappropriate but making

sure that we`re fulfilling our statutory and responsibilities.


MATTHEWS:  Well, it`s HARDBALL time.  What do you think we`re going to find

in the Mueller point when we get the redacted version of it?  Are we going

to get enough to scare the hell out of this administration or what?


BRENNAN:  I don`t know.  It`s clear that Donald Trump and his cronies are

quite fearful of what may be in there.  And I don`t know what William Barr

is going to redact for various reasons that he has cited.  I`m hoping that

as much comes out as possible.


Let`s make one thing clear.  The only thing that Donald Trump and his

campaign were clear with by the Barr memo that was cited in the Mueller

memo, was there was not an evidentiary basis to charge somebody with

criminal conspiracy.  It never said that there was no collusion or

cooperation.  So I think there`s a fair amount of information that is there

that Bob Mueller uncovered about the interaction between the Trump campaign

officials and the Russians.


And now, on the obstruction of justice issue, I think there is a real

question about whether or not Donald Trump and others did obstruct justice,

but that Bob Mueller decided that he was not going to be the one to indict

a sitting president.


MATTHEWS:  Well, thank you so much, John Brennan.  Thanks, Director, for

coming on the show.


Once Barr used the word spying to describe the activities of legitimate law

enforcement, senators of both parties attempted to clarify exactly what he

was talking about.




SEN. BRIAN SCHATZ (D-HI):  Do you want to rephrase what you`re doing? 

Because I think the word spying could cause everybody in the cable news

ecosystem to freak out.


BARR:  I`m not sure of all the connotations of that word that you`re

referring to.  But unauthorized surveillance.


JERRY MORAN (R-KS):  You have indicated that there is the possibility that

unauthorized surveillance or spying occurred.


BARR:  Did you say that I said that it occurred?  I just want to make it

clear thinking back on all the different colloquies here that I am not

saying that improper surveillance occurred.  I`m saying that I am concerned

about it and looking into it.  That`s all.




MATTHEWS:  I want to bring in now U.S. Congressman David Cicilline of Rhode

Island.  He sits the House Judiciary Committee.  And also Cynthia Alksne, a

former federal prosecutor.


First, on the politics, Congressman.  It looks to me like this guy is on a

tight rope.  On one side, he wants to lean one way to make sure Trump keeps

him in the job and the other way don`t look like an ass.  I mean, clearly,

I mean, he is saying things like they`re spying, spying that the state

trooper stops for speeding, that`s not spying on you, that`s doing your

job.  If you are looking for the Russians and what they`re up to in our

country because you think they are in to screw with our elections, that`s

not spying, it`s law enforcement.  He knows the (INAUDIBLE) and he used

that word spying.  What`s your thought?


REP. DAVID CICILLINE (D-RI):  Yes, I think there is no question about it. 

Look, the President said he wanted his Roy Cohn and he got it.  I mean,

here`s an Attorney General who`s tried to shape the narrative with a four-

page narrative of the Mueller report who is protecting the President by not

releasing its full contents to the Judiciary Committee.  And now, he throws

out in a casual way, spying, which is exactly the word the President used

to promote this conspiracy theory of the deep state.  That was purposeful.


Then he thought about it, I think, during the course of the hearing, he

realized what he was saying.  So I`m not saying anyone did anything wrong,

but this was justified law enforcement activity.  It`s what we would expect

from the intelligence and law enforcement communities.


Spying suggests something unwarranted or impermissible.  He said at the

end, oh, I`m not saying they did anything unwarranted, but he`s clearly

offering the President a lifeline to continue promote this conspiracy

theory and undermine the brave men and women in law enforcement who do an

incredible job everyday to protect our country and protect our democracy.


MATTHEWS:  Cynthia, is the Attorney General supposed to be a civil servant

or a puppet toon?


CICILLINE:  Well, we should remember, well, of course –



supposed to be –


MATTHEWS:  No, Cynthia.


ALKSNE:  Yes.  The Attorney General was supposed to represent the people of

the United States of America and he is not doing so.  Today, he was

completely irresponsible in the spying comment.  He knows full well that

that investigation began when George Papadopoulos was drunk in a bar and

was talking about Russian emails.  And then the Carter Page FISA warrant,

just so people understand, to get a FISA warrant is a lot of work.  There

is a lot of oversight in the FBI.  Then it goes to the DOJ.  This warrant

then goes to the FISA judges.


And if you think of federal judges, they are all really smart.  The

smartest ones, the most wonky, the most detailed, those are the ones who

become the FISA judges.  And the Carter warrant FISA warrant was not only

given once, but three times it was renewed.  This was not spying.  This was

not irresponsible by law enforcement in the United States.  And for the

Attorney General to say so is a stain on his reputation, which

I frankly don`t even recognize the guy anymore.  I am outraged that he

would do that to the law enforcement and to the criminal justice system in

the United States of America.


MATTHEWS:  A lot of people are saying that.  Some of Mueller`s

investigators have complained that the Attorney General has not portrayed

their findings accurately.  As The Washington Post reported last week, they

said the evidence they gathered on obstruction was alarming and

significant.  We`re talking about he Mueller report itself.  Yet, in

today`s hearing, Barr repeatedly declined to explain why he cleared the

President on obstruction of justice when the Special Counsel didn`t clear





BARR:  I`m not going to discuss my decision.  I will lay it out after the

report is out.


SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD):  Mr. Attorney general, the thing is you put

this out there.  I mean, the President went out and Tweeted the next day

that he was exonerated.  That wasn`t based on anything in the Mueller

report with respect to obstruction of justice.  That was based on your

assessment.  That was on March 24th.  And now, you won`t elaborate at all

as to how you reached that conclusion.


BARR:  I will discuss that decision after the reporting –


VAN HOLLEN:  Did Bob Mueller support your conclusion?


BARR:  I don`t know whether Bob Mueller supported my conclusion.


VAN HOLLEN:  So can you assure us that the key factual evidence in the

Mueller report related to charges of obstruction of justice will be

available in the public report?


BARR:  I believe it will.




MATTHEWS:  That`s our senator from Maryland there, Chris Van Hollen.


Let me get back to David Cicilline of Rhode Island.  It seems to me that

the whole strategy here on the Trump crowd, including Barr who is now

working for them, is to try to undermine the whole Mueller report itself,

the fact there is a Mueller report.  What good will that do if it comes out

next week even in a redacted form that there was (INAUDIBLE) effort to

manipulate the Trump campaign?  If that gets out there, how can you say

this investigation wasn`t worth it?


CICILLINE:  Well, I mean, don`t forget, this investigation produced 199

criminal charges, 37 convictions, five people going to prison.  But I think

what Mr. Barr is going to do, he`s going to attempt to release a report

that is so redacted, it has to be misleading to the American people, which

is why we`re going to have to fight hard to make sure its full contents,

absent, of course, the sources and methods that need to be protected, is

released to the American people so people understand the facts.


But, look, he tried to shape the narrative with a four-page summary, made

an obstruction of justice finding that he was unable to explain today.  But

we should remember, he auditioned for this job in an 18-page memo where he

said, basically, a president can`t be charged with obstruction because he

or she is in charge of the Justice Department.  And he delivered on that

commitment after being made Attorney General after looking at the report

for a very short period of time.


So I think what we`re seeing, very sadly for those of us who believe in the

rule of law and who believe in our criminal justice system, our law

enforcement and intelligence agencies is an Attorney General who thinks he

works for the President rather than took an oath to the constitution and to

the people of this country.


MATTHEWS:  Thank you so much, U.S. Congressman David Cicilline and Cynthia



Coming up, there is breaking news this hour.  The Treasury Department has

rejected House demand to turn over Donald Trump`s tax returns by tonight. 

It was a midnight deadline.  They are not going to meet it.  They say so. 

That`s in spite of the law`s clear language that the IRS has to comply,

that it shall reply.


So what will lawmakers do now?  I`m going to talk to the Member of the

House Ways and Means Committee what`s the next step, how do you fight the

White House, how do you fight the Treasury Department.


And one of the newest democrats to join the race for president joins

HARDBALL tonight.  There he is, Tim Ryan, Ohio Congressman Tim Ryan on the

Mueller report, Medicare for all, which he supports and what will it take

to beat Trump in Ohio.


Plus, who is the most influential voice in Trump`s ear?  Here are some

hints.  It`s not anyone in his administration and it`s not Sean Hannity,

but you`re close.  Much more ahead.  Stick with us.




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.  We`ve got breaking news tonight.  The

Treasury Department says it will miss today`s deadline from House Ways and

Means Chairman Richard Neal to hand over six years of President Trump`s

personal and business tax returns.


In a letter to Chairman Neal released just moments ago, Treasury Secretary

Steve Mnuchin wrote, the committee`s request raises serious issues

concerning the constitutional scope of congressional investigative

authority, the legitimacy of the asserted legislative purpose and the

constitutional rights of American citizens.  The legal implications of the

request could affect protections for all Americans against politically

motivated disclosures of personal tax information regardless of which party

is in power.


This morning, President Trump repeated his own refusal to release his

returns using his well worn alibi.





won`t do it.  If I`m not under audit, I would do it.  I had no problem with

it.  But while I`m under audit, I would not give my taxes. 


I would love to give them, but I`m not going to do it while I`m under

audit.  It`s very simple.  Remember, I got elected last time, the same

exact issue, with same intensity, which wasn`t very much because, frankly,

the people don`t care.




MATTHEWS:  Strangest time in the world.


Actually, 64 percent of the American people want to see the tax returns. 

They want him to put them out.  So that`s not true. 


Anyway, let me ask you about this.  Thank you.


Joining us right now is Congressman Dan Kildee of the Ways and Means

Committee and Heidi Przybyla.


Thank you for joining us. 


Let me ask you about this – this thing.  The law says they shall. 




MATTHEWS:  How do they get around this with this B.S. response tonight from



KILDEE:  Well, they just don`t do it. 


And the president signaled pretty early on that he did not want to have

these returns released.  But the interesting thing is, we didn`t ask the

president for these returns.  We asked the commissioner of the IRS.


And it`s our position that there`s real clarity on this, that the

commissioner is duty-bound to follow the law.  He swore an oath to uphold

the laws of the United States and its Constitution. 


Section 6103 of the tax code is one of those laws.  It says he shall

furnish them.  And it`s not up to the executive branch or anybody in it to

determine for the legislative branch what they consider to be a legitimate

subject of legislative inquiry. 


We are looking at the question as to whether or not the IRS is properly

enforcing laws, tax laws on the president of the United States and trying

to determine whether we need to take action to ensure that they do.  This

is a legitimate legislative inquiry. 


Now, there are other reasons that we`d like to see President Trump`s

returns, but this is a specific and clear inquiry that is intended to

inform the committee on its work. 


MATTHEWS:  What`s your next step?  They said no. 


KILDEE:  Well, we will see. 


I think Chairman Neal is really driving this.  And I have a lot of faith in

him that he`s doing this right.  He`s been very deliberate about it.  And

so I think the next step is to speak to our counsel and make a decision

about what we will do.


But I will – I will assure you of this, and everybody.  We`re not going to

say, oh, OK.  We`re going to continue to assert this position and we`re

going to use every legal avenue available to us.


MATTHEWS:  Heidi, I keep waiting for a reckoning.  I keep waiting for

somebody – issue to get to the Supreme Court and have them decide that

this president can do anything he wants, because it seems like that`s where

we`re headed. 




MATTHEWS:  Either we have a dictator or we have a constitutional system or



PRZYBYLA:  Mick Mulvaney foreshadowed all of this weekend when he told us,

you, the American people, will never see these tax returns.


And that is code for, the president is willing to take this all the way to

the mat, possibly all the way to the Supreme Court.  So, the congressman

and I were talking about this before.  This could really take a long time

to play out.  But that may be where – exactly where it`s headed, because

the Democrats are not showing that they`re going to cave in on this.


And the White House is giving every indication that they are not going to

cave in on this.  You had Mulvaney`s comments.  We know, Chris, that

lawyers at the Treasury Department and the White House general counsel were

in touch in anticipation of this, even before the formal request came



And so what this looks like is just an attempt to stall the inevitable,

which is that they`re going to say no, they`re going to give a denial, and

then challenge you all to take them to court. 


KILDEE:  And this is really a problem, because the fact that there was

dialogue between the White House and Treasury even before this request came

in elevates…




KILDEE:  … some of our concern that the White House is trying to

influence the Treasury Department, and specifically the IRS, when it comes

to any question involving Donald Trump. 


That`s the basis for the inquiry in the first place.  And all they have

done is add fuel to it.


MATTHEWS:  So, it`s not a government response.  It`s a personal attorney`s



Anyway, at a pair of hearings yesterday, Treasury Secretary Mnuchin would

not provide a specific answer on how he would handle that request for the

president`s tax returns. 




STEVEN MNUCHIN, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY:  We did receive the request.


As I have said in the past, when we received the request, it would be

reviewed by our legal department.  And it is our intent to follow the law.




MATTHEWS:  Intent to follow the law.


Well, the 1924 law cited by Ways and Means Chairman Richard Neal clearly

states – quote – “Upon written request, the secretary” – that`s the

secretary of treasury – “shall furnish such committee,” Ways and Means,

“with any return or return information.”


As Heidi mentioned, Mnuchin did acknowledge his department had been in

contact with White House lawyers over the request. 




MNUCHIN:  Our legal department has had conversations prior to receiving the

letter with the White House general counsel. 


REP. MIKE QUIGLEY (D), ILLINOIS:  And did they brief us to the contents of

that communication?


MNUCHIN:  They have not brief me to the contents of that communication.  I

believe that was purely informational. 


QUIGLEY:  You believe what was purely informational?


MNUCHIN:  I believe that the communication between our legal department and

the White House general counsel was informational. 




MATTHEWS:  Well, at a separate hearing later in the day yesterday, Mnuchin

said his department was not taking direction from the White House.




REP. CAROLYN MALONEY (D), NEW YORK:  Did the White House ask your team not

to release the tax returns? 


MNUCHIN:  We would not ever ask for the White House`s permission on this,

nor did they give us the permission.  As I have said, we consulted, which I

believe was appropriate, of our legal department. 




MATTHEWS:  That`s a nice legal term here. 


And I go back to my question to you, Heidi, as the journalist here. 


It seems to me that, when a law is as clearly written as that, and the

letter is carefully prepared by the chairman of the Ways and Means

Committee to meet all the standards of the law, carefully written, over

months, in fact, what`s the Supreme Court going to do here, the Republican

Supreme Court?


Are they going to back…




PRZYBYLA:  Well, I`m not a lawyer, but I can tell you that, politically

speaking, as the political journalist, this is the president`s red line.


And he has made this clear from day one, that delving into his personal

finances is crossing that red line.  And we already have an indication,

Chris, of what we might find in those tax returns, a story that I believe

was grossly undercovered by all of us, about the Trump family`s history of

dodging taxes, and that Trump himself personally benefited to the tune of

close to $400 million in inheritance via tax dodges from his father. 


So, if this was a Trump family tradition or something that they have done

over the years, what do you think that we may find in those tax returns?


MATTHEWS:  Well, they`re being audited, of course.


PRZYBYLA:  Well, that`s…


MATTHEWS:  Of course, I`m being sarcastic.  We have no evidence at all he`s

being audited, right, Congressman?


KILDEE:  No evidence that he`s being audited.  That`s actually one of the

things we want to know. 


And it`s not just whether his individual return is being audited, which has

been a practice of the IRS.  But in order to get an accurate view of Donald

Trump`s financial situation, you have to look at these other entities.  And

that`s why they were included in the request. 


We have no idea what whether the other entities are under what normally

would be…


MATTHEWS:  Do you know if he – is he being audited? 


KILDEE:  We don`t know.  He says he is. 


PRZYBYLA:  That`s part of what you can get, too, is the correspondence…


KILDEE:  That is right.


PRZYBYLA:  … to prove if that was ever true, ever true. 




MATTHEWS:  Well, we have a law, and we have a president.  We will see who



The congressman, Dan Kildee, of Michigan, of Flint, Michigan, thank you for



KILDEE:  That`s right. 


MATTHEWS:  Heidi Przybyla.


That`s Michael Moore country.


Up next…


PRZYBYLA:  Also of Michigan.


KILDEE:  That`s right, a couple of them.


MATTHEWS:  A Michigander.  I love that word, Michigander.


Up next:  Ohio Congressman Tim Ryan says working-class issues are in his

bones and will be a central focus of his 2020 presidential campaign.  He

joins us to talk about those issues and more after this. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


The path to the White House for Democrats in 2020 will require, most people

think, for them to win back blue-collar voters in swing states that voted

for Trump in 2016. 


Well, today, seven of 15 Democratic – there they are – Democratic

presidential candidates for 2020 were making their pitches to a conference

of union workers here in D.C.


Here`s what a few of them had to say. 





expansion in skills training and apprenticeships in America`s history.



protect working people, and that includes passing and having a workers bill

of rights. 



stop to the so-called right-to-work laws that destroy unions. 




REP. TIM RYAN (D-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  By 2030, there`s going to be

30 million electric vehicles made somewhere.  I want them manufactured in

the United States.  I want you guys taking care of the plants that make







MATTHEWS:  Well, joining us right now is one of those candidates.  You just

saw him, U.S. Congressman Tim Ryan of Ohio.  He`s in Manchester, New

Hampshire, right now.  I wonder why?


Let me ask you about this, because that`s the pitch.  Make it here.  How do

people who voted for Trump, what do you want them to hear from you,



RYAN:  Well, first and – first and foremost, bring the country together. 

We can`t do anything if we`re divided.  And that`s going to be really



But, then, what`s the plan?  And I think things like electric vehicles,

where there`s going to be 30 million made in the next 10 years, how do we

make those here?  How do we make the batteries here?  How do we make the

charging stations here?


And then export that to the world.  And make sure we`re cutting the workers

in on the deal.  But, right now, China`s cleaning our clock, Chris.  They

dominate 40 percent of the electric vehicle market.  They dominate 60

percent of the solar panel market, because the president`s fiddling around

on his phone, worried about Barbara Bush and everything else.


We`re getting our clock cleaned.  And I will get this country organized

around a big vision to dominate those industries. 


MATTHEWS:  How do you beat a president running at 58 percent in economic

job approval? 


RYAN:  I don`t see that. 


I mean, I think, yes, the stock market`s as high as it`s ever been,

unemployment is as low as it`s ever been.  But still 40 to 50 percent of

the American people can`t withstand a $400 or $500 emergency.


MATTHEWS:  I know.


RYAN:  The top 1 percent control 90 percent of the wealth and the bottom 60

percent haven`t seen a raise since 1980.  So there`s a lot of work. 

There`s a lot of anxiety.


We got all these statistics.  We need to start asking, what`s the national

stress level in the United States?  What`s the national anxiety level in

the United States?  It`s going to be pretty high, and a lot of that`s going

to be due to economics. 


MATTHEWS:  What do you tell a voter who voted for Trump, that you made a

mistake?  How do you – how do you get them to turn – man or woman in

Ohio, overwhelmingly for Trump.


You`re saying – how do you get them to say, yes, I made a mistake, I`m

voting the other way next time?  How do you get a person to do that? 


RYAN:  I understand.  I understand why they did it.  I mean, there`s so

much economic anxiety.  I`m not upset they did it.  I`m upset he hasn`t

delivered for them.


And I don`t think Trump has caused all the problems in the world.  A lot of

these are structural problems that have been going on a long time.  My

problem with the president is, he doesn`t care enough to fix them.  He

doesn`t have the attention span to fix them.  He has zero plan, Chris,



You go to China, they have their defense department, their infrastructure

plan, their soft power plan within the context of their – whatever –

their state department.  You look at their research, you look at their

development, everything is pushing in one direction on, how do you dominate



And, right now, we have no plan.  Artificial intelligence is out there,

additive manufacturing, electric vehicles.  We need the president of the

United States to sit down with the business community, to sit down with the

unions, to sit down with the educational institutions and say, how do we do



We don`t need a superstar.  We don`t need a savior in the Democratic Party. 

We need a grinder and someone who`s going to bring people together for an

agenda that`s actually going to help rebuild the middle class, which is on

life support right now. 


MATTHEWS:  Look, that all sounds good to me.  But I want to ask you about

the way that most voters vote.  They vote angry.  They vote against.  They



They hear from Trump today and his attorney general there are spies who

basically under – basically undercut his campaign, the deep state is out

to get him.


You know how he – even a guy as sophisticated as William Barr trafficking

in the same ridiculous lingo that the president uses about spying on him,

when the FBI people were doing their jobs.  How do you counter that? 


RYAN:  Well, the anxiety I mentioned, the resentment I mentioned is going

to be that their lives have still not just gotten any better. 


I mean, we just had a General Motors plant close, lose 1,700 jobs, every –

five jobs for every one in the plant.  You`re talking about 10,000 jobs in

our region.


People still can`t get ahead.  This is what I`m trying – I have been

trying to say for years.  People in the – in the finance centers and

people in the big cities that talk to each other at cocktail parties do not

understand what`s happening with Middle America. 


MATTHEWS:  I agree with that.


RYAN:  They don`t understand that there is a recession in rural America

right now.  Things are bad.  And you know what, Chris?  The anxiety level

is super high, and the stock market is high and unemployment is low.  What

the hell is going to happen if the economy takes a real serious turn for

the worse?


We got trillion-dollar deficits out – projected out into the future.  We -

- the clock is ticking, man.  We have got to get busy here with a real

agenda that`s going to tie this country back together and lift up the

middle class.  We`re going to be in real trouble if the economy has a

downturn.  The anxiety level is going to go through the roof.  And that`s

when things get really tumultuous.


MATTHEWS:  Well, I will say this for you, Congressman.  You`re not one of

those elite – elite, fancy Democrats that go to cocktail parties.  You`re

not one of those people.




MATTHEWS:  Thank you.  And I`m serious about that.  I think you do appeal

to regular people.  And I appreciate you coming on the show tonight.  Good

luck in this race. 


RYAN:  Thanks.


MATTHEWS:  And you`re in an interesting lane right now. 


I think Joe Biden may be joining that lane, but it`s going to be

interesting to watch you guys.  You`re a little younger than Biden, aren`t

you, I think?


Just kidding.


RYAN:  You said that.  You said that, not me. 




MATTHEWS:  Thank you, Congressman Tim Ryan of Ohio.


Up next: when political loyalty becomes more important than the law. 

Donald Trump`s consolidating power like no president in modern history in

advance of his anti-immigration agenda. 


Let`s watch him.  We`re going to talk about it in a minute.




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.


President Trump is consolidating power and living by his animating

principle that he alone can fix it.  According to reports, the president is

tired of being managed and tired to being told no.  As a result, he has

taken a hacksaw to any individual or agency that stands in his way. 


This week, DHS joined a slew of other departments and agencies that has

been decapitated with the president looking to install people devoted

solely to him.  In another example, the president has floated the names of

Herman Cain and Stephen Moore for posts with the Federal Reserve board,

both actively boosted Trump on television, but both candidates have been

receiving bipartisan push back. 


Republicans on Capitol Hill have grown increasingly uncomfortable with

those two nominations.  Senator Mitt Romney told “Politico”, we can`t turn

the Federal Reserve into a more partisan entity.  That would be a wrong



Despite those warnings, an emboldened president is being egged on by his

closest allies.  Stephen Miller has repeatedly pushed President Trump

further to the right on immigration.  And the president`s chief of staff,

Mick Mulvaney, according to the “New York Times” has made it his job to

encourage rather than restrain the president`s conservative instincts. 


According to “The Times”, this led to Republican Senator Richard Shelby of

Alabama called Mulvaney the most dangerous man in Washington.  And as

Miller and Mulvaney grow more powerful, there`s one man who has more even

influence over the president`s decisions.  It is shocking. 


Stay tuned to find out who is the presidential whisperer.  Right back.






LOU DOBBS, FBN HOST:  The Department of Homeland Security is flailing,

failing to protect the southern border from the flow of illegal immigrants,

and the problem is only worsening.  DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen is

flailing and her department appears utterly paralyzed under ineffectual

leadership.  Tonight, we are calling on the president to fire these

incompetents and the leadership and the customs border protection.  They

can`t act effectively. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.


So, we see who the boss is there.  According to “Daily Beast”, one of the

most influential voices in President Trump`s inner circle is Lou Dobbs. 

You saw him there. 


The Fox Business host reportedly counseled Trump that ditched Nielsen in

recent months.  Writing in “The Atlantic,” Tom Nichols warned that

President Trump`s growing cadre of sycophants is the kind of politicization

of senior positions normally only seen in authoritarian states, where

appointments are kept within tight circles of people whose commitment or

family connection to the leader is more important than experience or



For more, I`m joined right now by Neera Tanden, CEO of Center for American

Progress, and former adviser to President Obama.  And David Frum, senior

editor at “The Atlantic” and former speechwriter for President George W.



Let me start with you, David, this idea of a president who goes, basically

bullies his around, knocks over everybody, if he gets in his way, he picks

a crony or sycophant. 


DAVID FRUM, SENIOR EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC:  You know, you just listen to that

clip of space.com IPO had only gone better, things might be completely

different in America today.  That was Lou Dobbs`s failed Internet venture. 


President Trump is remarkably uninterested in 9/10 of the federal

government.  You know, there is a Department of Agriculture, he doesn`t

care what happens there.  There is the Department of the Interior, almost

completely indifference. 


What he focuses on is law enforcement and that he has to break, because he

understands and this is a point that has to be stressed again and again,

that he can survive his presidency or the rule of law can persevere, but

you can`t have both, because the operations of the law expose him to so

much risk. 


MATTHEWS:  You know, when he fires someone like Nielsen, he is firing

someone who says, but the law says.  That`s the infraction from his point

of view



at these people as people who is obstructing him.  What is dangerous is he

is essentially evading the Constitution by putting in acting people,

because he is not actually having people go in front of the Congress. 


MATTHEWS:  How long can we get away with actings as he talked about last



TANDEN:  I mean, I think the challenge for him or the challenge for all of

us, not really him, is that it`s an issue that gets litigated.  This is an

issue that should go before the court, because he`s going to do – there is

one thing we know about Donald Trump.  He will do the maximally illegal

thing –


MATTHEWS:  He was asked if he would nominate Stephen Miller as secretary of

homeland security.  Let`s watch what he said. 





guy.  He`s a wonderful person.  People don`t know him.  He has been with me

from the beginning.  He`s a brilliant man.  And frankly, there is only one

person that is running it.  You know who that is?  It`s me. 




MATTHEWS:  It`s me.  He talks like this.  I`m the boss. 


FRUM:  Because he`s suddenly envious of Stephen Miller.


MATTHEWS:  Yes, because he`s getting press on the right.


FRUM:  And in the way, President Trump should nominate Stephen Miller

because here`s what he`s doing, these acting people, al though they skirt

the law, they also can`t make policy.  An acting head of department will

always be cautious.  At the same time as President Trump is flailing about

immigration, he has not changed American immigration law or policy very

much.  The level of illegal immigration is the same as it was under

President Obama.  Illegal immigration is at high new levels with the border

crossings and he has not done anything about that, and the wall is not an

answer to any question –


MATTHEWS:  Why doesn`t he go to legislation?  Why did he say the standard

now for asylum are too lenient, make a stronger statement of credible fear,

we have to fix this thing because people are, in some cases, exploiting it? 

But he doesn`t ask for fixing the law.  He just fires people. 


TANDEN:  Yes, I think as a reminder, he could have done deals, some

reasonable deals, a year ago, 18 months ago.  I think the real problem, the

actual problem for the president is that his base cares about immigration

and the actual flows on immigration are increasing.  His strategy is



MATTHEWS:  I know.  The wall can change that perhaps.


TANDEN:  His whole argument is if you are tough on immigrants, they won`t

come here.  That has failed.  His family separation policy which I find

abhorrent was designed to stop immigration into the border because people

would – 


MATTHEWS:  And it`s not a deterrent.


TANDEN:  It`s not been a deterrent at all. 


MATTHEWS:  OK, let`s talk about something he always cared about, is

independent monetary policy.  If you let a president set monetary policy,

control the Fed, he or she will juice it up every time there`s an election. 

Inflation comes later.  The stimulus comes immediately.  You always would

have incredible money growth. 


FRUM:  The last president to get away with it was Richard Nixon. 


MATTHEWS:  Phase two. 


FRUM:  Richard Nixon believed that the recession of 1958 cost him the



MATTHEWS:  I think he did.  George Humphrey screwed him.


FRUM:  And so, he was determined – 


MATTHEWS:  Ike decided he was a conservative the last year.  I know what



FRUM:  So, he decided to put in a super political Fed chairman Arthur Burns

who cranked up money just in time to deliver a boom in 1972, but set the

country up for a decade of stagflation between `72 and `82.  Nixon`s

economic policies came at a – reelected him.  He didn`t even keep the job

very long and they laid the country waste for a decade.


MATTHEWS:  You know, this kind of Idi Amin government, you know, just to

blaspheme about one guy we`ve all watched, the last king of Scotland,

whoever he was, I mean, this idea that I`m the boss, like he just said me. 

We do have executive authority –


TANDEN:  I mean, the idea that Herman Cain would be on the Federal Reserve



MATTHEWS:  Nine, nine, nine.


TANDEN:  – is absurd.  I mean, it`s just the notion of that –


MATTHEWS:  Is Cain an enemy of the Fed, too?  I think there`s more than

just he`s useful in Trump.  I get the feeling he`s picking like more people

like that who will basically Trump`s guys.


TANDEN:  I think he`s people who will do what Trump wants for his election,

but he`s also – at the end of the day, he`s going to destroy the

credibility of the Fed.  Like a series of institutions, everything Trump

touches does end up dying, a series institutions which will people lose

faith in it, will think it`s political and it will be problematic to keep

the actual economic norms –


MATTHEWS:  You are a conservative, I want to try a principle.


FRUM:  Yes.


MATTHEWS:  I think there is one principle that all conservatives believe in

– limited government. 


FRUM:  I hope so.


MATTHEWS:  What`s Trump on limited government? 


FRUM:  Trump wants no limits on himself.  He doesn`t think that way.  He

doesn`t operate by principles.  He`s entirely driven by appetite. 


And on the Fed, all he wants is someone to deliver him the monetary policy

he wants right now.  And what he has cleverly done by nominating Herman

Cain, Herman Cain is the one person who makes Steve Moore seemed like a

half way reasonable choice.




FRUM:  And I think the upshot of this is, that Republicans – he has given

Republican senators a way to vote for Steve Moore by voting against Herman



MATTHEWS:  You know what Idi Amin had his final downfall.  You know what

they found in his private residence?  Toys.  He was a kid who played with

toys, literally. 


Your thoughts on limited government?


TANDEN:  I mean, I think the truth is his organizing principle is winning,

is beating his opponents and winning.  And I think he is focusing on having

a Fed that is not good for the economy over the long haul.  It`s good for

the economy for 18 months. 


MATTHEWS:  Who is the best to beat him, Neera?  Best bet to beat him?


TANDEN:  I don`t know.  I`m not answering that. 


MATTHEWS:  OK.  Thank you.  We`ll bring you back for that question.


Thank you, Neera Tanden, and thank you, David Frum.


Up next, Donald Trump and French President Emmanuel Macron toured Mount

Vernon, remember that?  That`s George Washington`s place and one of them

knew a lot about the history of Mount Vernon.  Which one do you think it

was, which leader of a country knew about it and which didn`t know nothing? 


You are watching HARDBALL.






TRUMP:  Frederick Douglass is an example of somebody who has done an

amazing job that is being recognized more and more, I notice. 


I mean, had Andrew Jackson been a little bit later, we wouldn`t have had

the civil war.  People don`t ask that question.  But why was there the

civil war?  Why could that not have been worked out? 


Our first Republican president, Abraham Lincoln. 


Great president.  Most people didn`t know he was a Republican, right?  Does

anyone know?  A lot of people don`t know that.  We have to build that up a

little bit more.  Let`s take an ad.  Let`s use one of those PACs. 




MATTHEWS:  Winston Churchill whose bronze Donald Trump proudly displays in

the Oval Office has a message for this current occupant of the White House. 

Study history.  Study history.  In history lies all the secrets of state



But has there ever been an American president so uninterested in American

history, so ill-prepared on what has worked and failed in the past, so ill-

served by history`s lessons.  This ignorance of the country`s past, even

not of his White House predecessors is no one`s fault, but Donald Trump. 

It`s well-known that not only has he never read a biography of his 43

predecessors, but has no intention of doing so. 


He believes in himself, not in history.  He believes the best guy to a

successful presidency is what comes to him. 


This time a year ago, the president was across the river at Mount Vernon

showing the president of France around the place.  A couple things about

that trip that depending on your way of looking at things may or may not

trouble you.  One, Trump said George Washington should have named it after

himself, should have put up a big sign, I suppose, with his name on it. 


If he was smart, he would have put his name on it.  You have to put your

name on stuff or no one remembers you. 


Doesn`t Trump know that one of the great – truly great achievements of our

first president is the way he walked away after being a Trump-like big

shot, like when he headed back to his plantation after defeating the

British and winning America`s independence, when the other George, King

George, the king of England, heard that, he was overwhelmed.  Well, then,

he will be the greatest man in the world. 


Donald Trump wouldn`t get that, the idea of winning worldwide respect, even

from your enemy by not being interested in personal power and adoration,

but being more interested in your country like General Washington than you

are in yourself.  That`s why Washington who didn`t name his plantation

after himself has the city, the country`s capital named after him. 


I forgot to mention that second thing to remember about Trump`s visit to

Mount Vernon.  It was clear to those joining us that President Macron knew

a lot more about the place`s history and the countries than the guy hosting



And that`s HARDBALL for now. 


“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now. 







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