Trump escalates shutdown standoff. TRANSCRIPT: 1/17/19, Hardball w/ Chris Matthews.

Joyce Vance, Jonathan Swan, Stacey Plaskett; David Jolly; Ben Rhodes

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  Get off my plane.  Let`s play HARDBALL. 


Good evening.  I`m Chris Matthews in Washington. 


Tonight, a startling picture of divided government.  President Trump has

escalated the shutdown fight with speaker Pelosi.  In a letter today, the

President told the speaker she couldn`t use a military plane for

congressional overseas trip that would have taken off this afternoon. 


Trump wrote, I`m sorry to inform you that your trip to Brussels, Egypt and

Afghanistan has been postponed.  We will reschedule the seven-day excursion

when the shutdown is over. 


Well, the President went on to write, postponing the public relations event

is total appropriate.  It would be better if you were in Washington

negotiating with me. 


Well, the President added, the speaker could fly commercial if she chooses

to Afghanistan.  It is the first public response from the President to the

speaker after more than 24 hours of silence after her suggestion that Trump

delay his state of the union address or deliver it in writing due to the



In a statement, a spokesman for Pelosi said the stop in Brussels was for

pilot rest and to meet with NATO officials.  And the trip didn`t include a

stop in Egypt. 


Well, the statement added the purpose of the trip was to express

appreciation and thanks to our men and women in uniform for their service

and dedication and to obtain critical national security and intelligence

briefings from those on the front lines. 


Well, the effects to the President Trump`s move, played out in real time,

the air force bus, there it is, carrying members expected to accompany

Pelosi on the trip returned to the capitol shortly after it was scheduled

to depart from joint base Andrews this afternoon. 


At the Pentagon this morning, President Trump accused the speaker of

preventing moderate Democrats from working with him to end the shutdown. 





House and Senate would like to make a deal, speaker Pelosi will not let

them negotiate. 




MATTHEWS:  The “New York Times” reports he has told a different story

inside the White House.  According to report in the Times, he told acting

chief of staff Mick Mulvaney quote “we are getting crushed.”  While

watching news coverage, he added why can`t we get a deal? 


Well, joining me right now is Representative Stacey Plaskett of the U.S.

Virgin Islands, a Democrat who sits on the House oversight committee. 

Peter Baker, chief White House correspondent for the “New York Times.”  Ben

Rhodes, former deputy national security adviser to President Obama.  And

David Jolly is a former Republican congressman from Florida who is no

longer affiliated with that party. 


I want to start with Peter Baker. 


Peter, the way that major papers are playing this is a power struggle

between the President and the speaker.  All using the shield of concern for

the federal employees.  But this is politics, isn`t it? 



course, it is, you know.  I mean, the speaker would making a point

yesterday when she says maybe you shouldn`t come up and give the state of

the union while the government is partially shut down.  That`s her power

perks, you know.  She owns that chamber, the House chamber.  And it is up

to her whether she has the President come down or not. 


He then responds, of course, with the power perks that he has.  He has the

- in controls of military air fleet and basically pulled it out from under

her as she decided - as she was going to go over to Afghanistan. 


And so, you know, I think that, you know, Senator Lindsey Graham, who has

been mostly an ally of the President said that both sides were being

sophomore.  And certainly, they are not getting any closer to any kind of

genuine negotiation.  It`s hard to see how it`s, though that is the last

418 hours, have gotten us any closer to a deal. 


MATTHEWS:  Let me go to Ben Rhodes. 


Ben, you know the facts here.  A lot of these facts must be jumping out at

you like the nature of this codel (ph), the fact it was going to

Afghanistan.  Hardly a pleasure trip for the Paris air show or something

like that.  They weren`t bringing their spouses with them.  You know a real

codel (ph) verses a junket.  This was not a junket. 



Chris.  I mean, this is actually really an insult to the American taxpayer. 

Because keep in mind that Congress has to fund to the tune of billions of

dollars our efforts in Afghanistan.  And Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the

House, it is part of her job to go there on front lines, to get those

briefings from generals, to survey what is happening on the grounds as she

makes decisions because she holds the power of the purse in Congress. 


And so what President Trump is doing here is not canceling a photo-op, it

is canceling a really critical part of her responsibilities as Speaker of

the House to check in with our men and women on the front lines, to show

our support for them but also to try to understand the nature of the war in

Afghanistan.  And to pull the plug on I think is deeply irresponsible and

abuse of his powers as commander-in-chief. 


MATTHEWS:  Let`s talk about the cheap shot part of it.  They were in the

bus heading to joint base Andrews.  He made them look like fools coming

back sitting there at the capitol in the drive way.  They are basically

trying to figure what is coming nest.  He caught them in the act as if they

were sneaking out of town and made them look stupid.  I mean, it clearly -

well, it looked like a political dirty trick to me.  Your thoughts. 


RHODES:  Yes, absolute, Chris.  I mean, I`m trying to - I mean, when we

were in office, we would never, ever have thought of interfering with a

congressional delegation, particularly one to a war zone that`s critically

important.  All kinds of Republican critics travelled to war zones while

President Obama was in office and you thought that was an important part of

their responsibilities. 


I`m just trying to imagine the conversation in the White House where they

decided we have to get Pelosi back for what she did and then someone is

scouring the schedule of congressional delegation and somehow thinks it`s a

good idea to embarrass the speaker of the House and to deny our troops that

expression of support from the third ranking person in line to the

presidency in our system. 


It`s really sophomoric and it sends a horrible message to the world that is

already watching the shutdown and thinking what is going on in the United

States of America.  And now they see the President of the United States

literally blocking the speaker of the House and the representatives from

going to Afghanistan. 


MATTHEWS:  It looks bad. 


Anyway the White House insisted Trump`s letter was not a response to

Pelosi`s state of the union letter yesterday.  And indeed his letter did

not mention of Pelosi`s call for delaying the state of the union. 


“Politico” reports that day-long lapse in response was intentional. 

Quoting a White House official who said, “Trump decided to hit back on his

terms and timeline.”  Defending the decision to wait for more than a day to

respond.  The official said, why dies it merit an immediate or serious

response?  It`s her suggestion. 


Well Pelosi said this morning her concerns were not about security

capabilities for the event.  Here she goes. 




REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), HOUSE SPEAKER: They are professionals.  They trained

for this.  They should be paid for this.  The date of the state of the

union is not a sacred date.  It`s not constitutionally required.  It`s not

about president`s birthday.  It is not anything.  It is a date that we

agreed to. 




MATTHEWS:  Congresswoman, this doesn`t looking good for our country.  But I

don`t know, whose fault is it? 


REP. STACEY PLASKETT (D), U.S. VIRGIN ISLAND:  Well, I think that, you

know, Speaker Pelosi`s letter was to tell the President that this may not

be a good time for us to have it unless we come to an agreement.  And

because of security issues related to having a state of the union while

many people are furloughed, while security is being stretched.  And she, if

you can remember, has given the President time. 


I mean the state of the union was not really set for a set specific date. 

And so the President had time.  All members of Congress will be back on

Tuesday, will be able to continue the negotiations and it`s not as if the

President has called us into a meeting to continue the negotiations. 


At the same time the President, less than 24 hours specifically on the same

day that travel is occurring decides how inadvertently or coincidentally to

drop this letter on her the day after her letter goes to him is not lost on



MATTHEWS:  Right.  As the plane was about to take off. 


By the way, the top Republican in the House, Minority leader Kevin McCarthy

of California backed up the President`s maneuver today. 





shutdown right now.  I think it would be an opportune time we can work and

get government back open.  Yes, I think it was appropriate.  Why would she

want to go overseas with government shut down, with people missing their





MATTHEWS:  The pity of this guy. 


Anyway –. 


PLASKETT:  The one thing I was saying is just the hypocrisy of that is

there has been Republican codels (ph) in the same time period –


MATTHEWS:  Trump has been to Iraq during this shutdown. 


PLASKETT:  During the shutdown, the President has been in war zones. 

Republicans have gone on codels.  The speaker, Nancy Pelosi, did not stop

them from going on codels which she could have done by calling us and

making sure that us stayed in.  So this is totally partisan on their part. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, one of the President`s top allies in the U.S. Senate

blasted both the President and the speaker of the House in his statement



Lindsey Graham wrote, one sophomoric response does not deserve another. 

Speaker Pelosi`s threat to cancel the state of the union, well she is not

canceling it, is very irresponsible and blatantly political.  President

Trump denying military Speaker Pelosi`s military travel to visit our troops

in Afghanistan, our allies in Egypt and NATO is also inappropriate. 


David, what do you make of this?  It is – the Congress seems to have lost

some of its class since you have been there.  I don`t know what to make of

it but I think Pelosi looked smart yesterday.  I think the President looks

a little cheap today.  But clearly, this looks like carry-on government,

some old British comedy, you know.  It doesn`t look good for our country. 




Look, Pelosi`s decision yesterday had a bit of a historic impact, if you

will.  It`s a big deal to postpone a state of the union.  Donald Trump`s

decision today did look petty. 


 But I would say this, Chris.  You know, I have been involved with Congress

the last 25 years-worth of government shutdowns, starting in 1995.  There

comes a point in which you are low in medium intensity voters across the

country.  Just look at Washington and say they are all a bunch of children. 

They are behaving like idiots. 


I think this is that week.  You know what?  There is no urgency to the

state of the union address, nor is there urgency to speaker Pelosi`s trip

to Afghanistan.  They are simply is not. 


Nancy Pelosi can wait until February to go to Afghanistan.  Donald Trump

can wait until February to give the state of the union address.  The

urgency is around reopening the government.  And at some point, people

across the country stop looking at the two parties and just say they are

all behaving like children.  Get to work and solve this.  Settle your

difference.  We get you don`t like each other.  We don`t pay you to like

each other.  We pay you to solve problems.  I think this is the turning

point this week for the American people. 


MATTHEWS:  Peter, let me talk to you about the record her and how the good

news, the hard news is going to report on this.  President Trump is chief

executive on the United States.  He is responsible for the government to

work.  And in the end, he proved that today by saying I can stop you from

flying on any air force plane I want to.  I am running the government. 

Therefore, isn`t there a (INAUDIBLE) he is responsible for the government

being shut down?  Isn`t the heat on him? 


BAKER:  Well, in fact, you know, most polls show that people do in fact

blame him more than congressional Democrats.  I think Congressman Jolly is

right.  There is sort of pock (ph) and all their house kind of an attitude

about Washington in general.  And that that may, you know, be the ultimate

result of this. 


But if – when there are parceling out blame among all the people who

should be pocks, whose houses should be pocks, that is mostly majority to

President Trump as opposed to congressional Democrats at the moment.  He

said himself early on he would own this shutdown. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, he also said in your paper - your paper, I`m sorry.  Your

paper reported today that he says I`m getting crushed. 


BAKER:  That`s right. 


MATTHEWS:  He seems to have acknowledged to Mick Mulvaney, according to

your paper`s reporting, he told his chief of staff, hey, we are losing this





MATTHEWS:  Just to Peter first.  Go ahead, I`m sorry. 


BAKER:  I think he miscalculated in the sense that he thought that he could

pressure Nancy Pelosi into caving in earlier than we have seen.  That you

know, that there would have been a relatively quick shutdown that would

have been resolved and once the speaker – new speaker came in and took

power and they would come to a deal.  She has not done that.  Both sides

now are locked in to their position.  Neither sides is moving.  And you

know, doesn`t even seem to be any imperative to move at this point. 


MATTHEWS:  Let me ask you, Congressman.  Who can explain when something

goes wrong?  Government has a lot of responsibilities in this country over

safety, over security, over food, safety, all kinds of things, the airplane

travel.  We have air traffic controllers, federal employees, we got all

those people under stress now financially, in addition to the stress that

comes with being an air traffic controller or TSA officer. 


PLASKETT:  Exactly.  Or any of the position that where individuals are on

furlough.  And the Democratic House has voted nine times since the shutdown

to get government open. 


One person that we have not discuss in this time is the person who is

hiding under a blanket and that is Senator Mitch McConnell who has not

taken the bills that Congress passed to reopen government and brought them

to the floor of the Senate to then bring them to the President. 


He is being the stop gap right now for the President and the man standing

in the way of having a directly in front of the Presidents the bills that

Congress has passed that say, listen, let`s open a government and let`s

have a serious discussion and debate about border security. 


We want to solve border security.  That`s in everyone`s interest.  How much

it costs and where it goes is the debate.  But let`s not hold the American

people hostage while that happens. 


MATTHEWS:  Let me ask you, Ben.  You have been inside, really inside.  Let

me ask you about this.  If you were the great mediator, the great decider,

could you sit with the President and Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell and

work out a deal in border security in this heat?  Could you do it in this



RHODES:  Well, Chris, I think everybody knows, you know, that there is some

compromise to be had on border security.  The fact is Trump`s proposal

doesn`t make any sense because $5 billion is kind of an arbitrary number. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, Pelosi is zero. 


RHODES:  Yes.  No. 


MATTHEWS:  Pelosi`s proposal is zero.  So, I don`t know if the math works

here or not.  It doesn`t seem like the math works.  You can`t compromise. 


RHODES:  Because why give $5 billion which is real money for come wall when

that seem to build a wall and we don`t think a wall is the right answer as

Democrats.  So I think what she has put forward –. 


MATTHEWS:  But you do believe in border security and you don`t believe in

open borders.  There is this statement out in the party all the time.  You

are not for letting the wall just fall down not to have a border.  So

what`s the right way to police the border?  What`s the democratic way to do



PLASKETT:  We have also give $.6 billion already that we have authorized,



MATTHEWS:  And Ben, what is the right thing to do the whole thing so we

stop talking about the border for the next 300 years? 


RHODES:  I think the point here, Chris, is there is not a crisis there. 

Actually, border crossings are way down over the course of the last decade. 


MATTHEWS:  I know that.  But that is only because of the cycle.  What are

we going to do so we can stop arguing about this? 


RHODES:  You take the bill that already passed the Senate unanimously and

has now passed the House.  You pass that, you reopen the government and

then you have a negotiation about how much to put to new border security,

to technology, to the coast guard, to different approaches to spearing the



What you don`t do is have a President who is chosen to manufacture a crisis

to keep a political promise that he said originally was going to be paid

for by Mexico and is holding 800,000 workers hostage.  Let`s get those

people paid again, get them back to work and have a discussion like

rational adults about how we are going to fund border security.  You don`t

take the funding for the entire government and make that hostages,

especially when the American people voted for divided government.  They

voted to have a Democratic House of Representatives.  Donald Trump had two

years with Republicans in charge of both chambers and didn`t pass this

funding for the wall. 


So people can see this for what it is.  It`s a political stunt.  We need

get it out of the way, get the government open and then have this

discussion about border security and I think Democrats can say to Donald

Trump, look, we are willing to compromise but we are not willing to

compromise on the backs of those 800,000 American. 


MATTHEWS:  You are strong advocate, Ben Rhodes.  Thank you for that well

analyzed and well presented.  I mean that. 


And U.S. Congresswoman Stacey Plaskett of the Virgin Islands.  I love that



PLASKETT:  Thank you. 


MATTHEWS:  Peter Baker, Ben Rhodes and of course, David Jolly and who have

I forgotten?  No one. 


Anyway.  Coming up, this is a Rudy Giuliani event.  Let`s watch Rudy. 




UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Is it still the position of you and your client THAT

there was no collusion with the Russians whatsoever on behalf of the Trump







MATTHEWS:  Wow.  We got them with the prompter right now and this is Rudy

Giuliani right now. 





collusion between the campaign. 




MATTHEWS:  And how does he explain that massive flip-flop?  He said there

is no - he ever said there was no (INAUDIBLE).  And from months, there has

been no collusion.  And does it indicated another shoes about the drop in

the Russian investigation?  Is Rudy anticipating that they have the goods

on trump`s people in collusion? 


This is HARDBALL where the action is. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


In a stunning reversal last night, the president`s lawyer Rudy Giuliani

acknowledged the possibility that members of the Trump campaign did collude

with the Russians in 2016, did collude. 




RUDY GIULIANI (R), FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK:  I never said there was no

collusion between the campaign or between people in the campaign.


CHRIS CUOMO, CNN:  Yes, you have. 


GIULIANI:  I have no idea if – I have not.  I said the president of the

United States. 


There is not a single bit of evidence the president of the United States

committed the only crime you could commit here, conspired with the Russians

to hack the DNC. 






MATTHEWS:  Well, the truth is that, on numerous occasions, both Giuliani

and the president clearly and categorically denied that anybody in the

Trump campaign colluded with the Russians. 




QUESTION:  Is it still the position of you and your client that there was

no collusion with the Russians whatsoever on behalf of the Trump campaign? 


GIULIANI:  Correct. 



between the Trump campaign and Russians or Trump and Russians, no



GIULIANI:  I know, from having been on the campaign, that there was no

contact with Russians, no discussion with Russians. 


TRUMP:  The entire thing has been a witch-hunt.  And there is no collusion

between certainly myself and my campaign. 


GIULIANI:  Three main issues, right?  One is, was there collusion?  Come

on.  Nobody believes anymore there was collusion. 


TRUMP:  There was no collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russian



GIULIANI:  Stop with all this nonsense about collusion, which didn`t



TRUMP:  There was no collusion between me and my campaign and the Russians.




MATTHEWS:  Well, this is the latest in a series of evolving denials from

team Trump.  And it`s the first time Trump`s own lawyer, Giuliani, is

acknowledging the possibility that someone in the campaign might have

actually colluded with Russia. 


And, today, Giuliani tried to clean up his disastrous remarks in that

interview.  Well, now with NBC News, he says: “I can speak only to the

president, not the campaign.  I only speak to the president.”


He added that: “I have no knowledge that anyone in the campaign colluded,

but, obviously, I cannot speak for everyone in the campaign.”


Well, that`s new. 


I`m joined right now by Joyce Vance, a former U.S. attorney, and Eugene

Robinson, a columnist with “The Washington Post.”


I want to start with Joyce on this, because I keep thinking RICO time.  I

mean, if they`re going to basically say, oh, he never had a phone call with

anybody – by the way, the same guy, Rudy, who says he didn`t do it

personally, somebody may have done it for him, they`re also – he and the

other lawyers are saying, well, we really can`t talk about what the

president said to somebody, because that`s privileged information.


So, they have basically blocked out, blotted out the mere possibility that

they could ever catch the president in the act, because they`re not going

to talk about what he said to somebody, because that`s executive privilege. 

And if somebody else did it without the president formerly saying to do it,

it`s not his fault.


They seem to have explained away and defined away the possible guilt of the



JOYCE VANCE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY:  And, of course, they`re wrong here.


This is the same defense that every guy at the top of the chain in a drug

case tries:  I never actually sold drugs, federal government, so you can`t

prosecute me.


And, of course, prosecutors are very skilled at getting phone conversations

and understanding who`s giving the orders and who`s benefiting from

whatever`s going on with the criminal activity.  And that`s how these cases

are made.  And that`s how the guy sitting at the top of the organization

gets prosecuted every time.


Giuliani knows this.  So it`s very disingenuous for him to say Trump was

sitting in a little box at the top of the campaign and didn`t know what his

underlings were going on.


That runs contrary to everything that we have heard from Trump, who tells

us that he was very hands-on and knew absolutely everything that everyone

was doing. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, Giuliani has prosecuted mob cases.  He knows the essence

of this, doesn`t he?  That`s how it works.  The top guy doesn`t give the

orders, because he doesn`t want to have anybody testify against him ever. 


VANCE:  Yes, that`s absolutely right. 


That`s what these guys, that`s what the mob bosses do.  They insulate

themselves, or so they think, from liability.  And that works really well

until one of their lieutenants turns on them and testifies or until it

turns out the feds have a wiretap and have been listening to their phone

calls, or, in this day and age, that they have e-mails, text messages, or

maybe even now tweets. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, I don`t know whether it depends what time of day you talk

to Rudy Giuliani, but you get different voices after 9:00 and different

voices this morning. 




MATTHEWS:  So, the night before doesn`t sound the same the next morning. 


But the big news here, from a reporter`s point of view, from a journalism

point of view, is, they have changed their story. 


ROBINSON:  Yes, they have changed the story. 


I mean, Rudy Giuliani can be all over the map.  But just sort of randomness

can`t explain that big a departure from the story, right?  The official

line is, there was no collusion.  How could you think there was any

collusion?  You are a bad person for imagining that there could have been





ROBINSON:  And now it`s like, oh, I never said there wasn`t collusion.  Of

course there might have been collusion. 


MATTHEWS:  Are they cutting people loose?




MATTHEWS:  Are they cutting people loose?


ROBINSON:  Well, I think they`re preparing to.


I mean, now, who?  I mean, that`s the question, because who are the



MATTHEWS:  Manafort.


ROBINSON:  Who was in the meeting?  Who was in the Trump Tower meeting? 

Donald Trump Jr., Manafort, Jared Kushner were in that meeting.




MATTHEWS:  Flynn, Gates, the whole crowd.  Anyway – Papadopoulos.


Anyway, Giuliani`s reversal on collusion comes just days after Mueller

filed a heavily redacted memo in the Manafort case, speak of the devil,

detailing what he knows about Manafort`s outreach to a Russian intelligence



That filing was accompanied by a 150-page series of exhibits, nearly all

which were entirely redacted.  Look at them.  They`re all blocked there. 

Only the special counseling and Manafort`s lawyers know what`s contained in

those documents.


However, we know that “The New York Times” has reported in November that

Manafort`s legal team had long kept Mr. Trump`s lawyers abreast of

developments in his case under a joint defense agreement. 


The supposition here is, Rudy got the word what they got on Manafort, et



ROBINSON:  Well, you have to have – that has to be a question.


I mean, does he know what`s in those redacted portions of those documents? 

Even if you don`t know what`s in the redacted portion of those documents,

of the main document that was filed the other day, you can – just reading

what you can – what we`re allowed to read, you can kind of fill in the

blanks, I mean, and you can conclude that Manafort is up to his eyeballs

with the Russians.


And he was the chairman of the campaign.  So maybe it is time to change the



MATTHEWS:  Well, I want to go back to Joyce on this.


In terms of your experience here, the trouble we have here, the political

overlay, two politicians involved, Rudy Giuliani and the president.  Both

are politicians.  I don`t think they`re likely to share delicate



I can`t see Trump saying, well, I may be exposed here and there to Rudy

Giuliani.  I`m just wondering.  But isn`t that what you have to do to your

lawyer and tell him or her what your trouble might be?


VANCE:  You know, that`s the usual relationship, Chris.


It`s – that`s why the attorney-client privilege exists, so that the client

can tell the lawyer absolutely everything that they have been involved in,

including criminal conduct.  And the lawyer can come up with the best

defense strategy for them.


But the way that Giuliani and Trump operate, I think, drives home the fact

that this is not a legal strategy.  It`s a political one.  It`s designed to

hang on to the base, so that there won`t be a powerful enough voice out in

the country calling for impeachment.


I think that`s really Giuliani`s whole goal.  And we have seen him do this

before.  Every time there`s a new big shoe about to drop, Giuliani somehow

shows up on a television show someplace and fronts out the news.


And we have gotten into the habit of thinking that he`s nuts, that he`s

just making these crazy statements. 




VANCE:  I have started to believe that, in reality, what he`s doing, he`s

immunizing folks.


He`s sort of giving this inoculation, so that, by the time the story does

drop, people have heard it before, they`re a little bit numb to it, and

there`s not a widespread outcry.


MATTHEWS:  He`s like the – in the Spanish bullfight, he`s the steer that

goes into the crowd to calms things down.


VANCE:  Exactly. 


MATTHEWS:  Anyway, meanwhile – exactly.  I like that. 


And, meanwhile, “Vanity Fair” reported yesterday that the mounting pressure

has also strained Giuliani`s relationship with Trump.  That`s according to

a Republican briefed on Giuliani`s thinking, who says: “Rudy hates the job. 

Trump is very hard to deal with.”


Big surprise there, Gene.


These personalities are something.  Reading into the personalities and the

behavior right there, here`s Rudy out – Rudy coming out.  Last redoubt is

just protecting the president.  Forget the outer walls.  We`re not

defending all the other characters in this.  We`re not – that`s a hell of

a statement, if you`re one of those guys out there like Manafort.


I`m not defending anybody out there, just me.




ROBINSON:  Exactly.


It`s all about his client.  His client is the president, as far as he is –

I mean, that`s very clear for what he said yesterday, is that his concern

is the president.


I think Joyce is absolutely right.  This is a political strategy.  It`s not

a legal strategy.  It`s – if he holds on to 80 percent of Republicans or

whatever, then he holds on to enough Republican senators to save his job,

in the event that he`s impeached, right?


I mean, we`re down to that. 


MATTHEWS:  It looks like that.


ROBINSON:  He`s got keep the Republican senators.


MATTHEWS:  I remember a phrase, both of you, from reading about the Alamo

and how Davy Crockett and the others, that, in the end, when they were

overwhelmed by thousands of Mexico soldiers on the Santa Ana, they

retreated to what was called the last redoubt, which was a powder magazine. 


It was just like one little room they could defend.  That`s all they could

defend.  I think that`s where this case has gone. 


Thank you, Joyce Vance.  You`re a pro.  And it`s great to have you on.


And, Eugene Robinson, the same with you in the world of journalism. 


Still ahead:  Did Donald Trump tell Michael Cohen to pay someone to

manipulate online polls in Trump`s favor ahead of the election, so it

looked like he was a winner?  That`s a dirty trick, don`t you think?  It

fooled a lot of conservatives.  They thought, well, here`s the guy.


Cohen says he did.  He`s admitting this stuff.  Chuck Colson, salute. 


This is HARDBALL, where the action is. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


As Donald Trump`s private lawyer, Michael Cohen was Trump`s personal fixer

as well.  He carried out his boss` orders.  And, today, we got another

example of that. 


According to “The Wall Street Journal,” Cohen paid a digital firm roughly

$13,000 in cash delivered in a Wal-Mart bag to try to help rig online polls

to help boost Trump`s popularity before the launch of his presidential



And after the story came out, Michael Cohen confirmed the reporting by

tweeting: “What I did was at the direction of and for the sole benefit of

Donald Trump.  I truly regret my blind loyalty to a man who doesn`t deserve

it.”  That`s Cohen speaking on the record. 


Cohen also helped Trump strike a deal with David Pecker and the American

Media, the parent company of “The National Enquirer,” to catch and kill any

negative – negative information about the president, while circulating and

amplifying negative stories about Trump`s opponents.


And he helped Trump pay adult film star Stormy Daniels $130,000 to keep her

allegation that she had an affair with Trump quiet.


For more, I`m joined by Ken Dilanian, NBC News intelligence and national

security reporter. 


I`m not sure that`s under the heading of national security, but it`s

certainly under the area of intelligence. 


He – $13,000, apparently part of a payoff of more, and Trump wanted to do

what with digital?  What was he up to in the beginning? 




Well, it`s not clear that Trump ordered this.  Cohen says that Trump knew

about it.  But what Cohen was trying to do was manipulate online polls, not

really credible polls that NBC News use, but these little online vanity

polls.  And he wanted to try to boost Trump`s image.


And it was supposed to be $50,000.  Cohen got expense reimbursements for

$50,000, and he only paid the guy, apparently, $13,000.  And there`s

there`s a potential that some of this was an undisclosed campaign

contribution and it could have been illegal.  But prosecutors…


MATTHEWS:  So Trump was paying for fake news?


DILANIAN:  Yes, essentially.


MATTHEWS:  Creating it. 


DILANIAN:  And prosecutors in the Southern District are aware of this. 

They haven`t charged a crime.  So, we can assume they took – taken a…




MATTHEWS:  Wait a minute, that $13,000 in cash in a bag, a Wal-Mart bag,

that wasn`t Michael Cohen `s money, was it?  That was Trump`s money. 


DILANIAN:  Trump later reimbursed Cohen, and they called it legal services,

which seems really shady.


MATTHEWS:  OK.  Well, I think Trump knew what he was doing.


Anyway, in the last hour, Lanny Davis, an adviser to Michael Cohen, told my

colleague Ari Melber that his client – that would be Cohen – is

considering whether to go forward with this plan to testify.  Take a look. 




LANNY DAVIS, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL COHEN:  He`s considering whether to go

forward, in light of the concerns about his family. 


My guess is that he won`t let a bully silence him.  But I can tell you that

he is still considering whether to do this or not. 




MATTHEWS:  What do you think Trump`s worrying about tonight, as he looks

forward to Michael Cohen testifying in public?


DILANIAN:  Well, first of all, Michael Cohen is going to testify that

Donald Trump ordered him to commit a crime, essentially, and he said that

in court. 


It`s one thing to say it in court, but this is under the klieg lights of a

televised congressional hearing.  I`m not sure that this has broken through

to the American public.


And then he`s going to talk about…


MATTHEWS:  You mean the – the payoffs to the women?


DILANIAN:  The payoffs to the women.


MATTHEWS:  Which were campaign contributions.


DILANIAN:  Which were illegal campaign contributions, ordered, according to

Michael Cohen, by Donald Trump. 


MATTHEWS:  What about wide-open questions?  I mean, if I remember Congress

– that`s a big if.




MATTHEWS:  I might ask, any other dirt you got on him? 


DILANIAN:  Well, absolutely. 


And you can – we can assume they have been doing business like this for



MATTHEWS:  How many other women?


DILANIAN:  Exactly. 


Now, prosecutors only care about the stuff that happened around the

campaign, because it`s not illegal to pay off women.


MATTHEWS:  Prosecutors are not members of Congress. 


DILANIAN:  Exactly. 


So now we`re going to get into – and also we have never had an intimate of

Donald Trump come openly and talk about how he does business, what his

priorities were, what his idiosyncrasies are.


I think this could be a devastating hearing next month with Michael Cohen.


MATTHEWS:  OK.  Well, during the campaign, President Trump – now President

Trump – frequently boasted about online polls.  They would get – in turn

get picked up by conservative media. 


You put it online, then shows up in a better media.  Alternatively, Trump

bashed any poll that showed him behind.  Let`s watch.




TRUMP:  You know, they give you phony polls, folks, phony polls.


I don`t believe the polls anymore.  These polls, these are called dirty

polls.  You know what that is.  These are false.  I don`t think so. 


I don`t believe those polls, by the way, because both of those pollsters do

not like me.  I`m telling you.  Now, I`m not saying anything that goes on

illicitly with polling, OK?  I would never, ever say that.




MATTHEWS:  So there he is admitting it.




I mean, it looks like kind of a dirty tricks campaign.  And you can

extrapolate this to all the microtargeting they were doing on social media.

Where did they get the information for that?


This is exactly some of the things we think that Robert Mueller is



MATTHEWS:  OK.  Before Trump falls asleep at night, that last moment of

worry, OK, what`s he worried about from Cohen? 


DILANIAN:  Well, I think it`s the secrets, the women and other things that

Michael Cohen paid to make go away.  That`s clearly the pattern of



MATTHEWS:  To make it go away. 


DILANIAN:  Exactly. 


MATTHEWS:  And now it ain`t going away. 


DILANIAN:  No, it`s not.


MATTHEWS:  It`s coming back. 


Thank you, Ken.  You`re the best.  Thank you, Ken Dilanian of NBC News. 


Up next:  Trying to figure out Trump`s approach to foreign policy is not

easy.  We`re going to give you our best shot.  Is he working for, well,

John Bolton, or he`s working for Rand Paul, or he`s working for Erdogan of

Turkey?  You can`t tell.  Your head gets dizzy trying to figure out where

we`re going. 


I do remember he said no stupid wars.  So let`s hope we`re not going to war

with Iran. 


You`re watching HARDBALL. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.


It took 24 hours, but today, President Trump responded to Nancy Pelosi`s

suggestion to delay his State of the Union.  However, the president did not

respond directly to that request.  Instead, he informed the speaker he was

grounding her military transport to Afghanistan. 


Despite the brinkmanship between the two leaders, “The Washington Post”

reports that Trump has pulled back his punches.  When he pulled his punches

because, quote, the president believes she would help protect him from

impeachment and considers her more reasonable than other Democrats. 


We`re joined by HARDBALL roundtable.  Jonathan Swan, White House reporter

for “Axios”, Heidi Przybyla is a notational political correspondent for NBC

News, and Jonathan Allen is national political reporter for NBC News



Thank you.  What a group.


And I want to start with you, Jon.  Let me ask you this: who`s winning? 


JONATHAN SWAN, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, AXIOS:  Sorry, who`s winning what? 


MATTHEWS:  This fight. 


SWAN:  The shutdown? 




SWAN:  The polling suggests Trump is losing support, even among some of his

own voters.  His approval rating is down, even the Rasmussen poll, which is

usually heavily weighted towards Republicans, has been slipping. 




SWAN:  It`s real concern sign for them. 


But, you know, this question of winning or losing, I`m not sure there was

stories speculating this slight crater in Trump`s base might change his

calculus.  I`m very skeptical of that, because if he caves, he depletes

support among the only people left who still love him, and I just – that

is at the forefront of his mind. 


MATTHEWS:  Let me go with Nancy Pelosi – she`s as tough as they come. 

She`s old school.  She`ll use whatever power she has, like the speaking of

the State of the Union.  And he`s using his power back against her.  Who`s

winning that one? 



different, though, Chris?  He`s not used to it.  This is the first time

he`s had a member of – or a congressional leader push back on him in

punishment and use those powers.  She`s shown him from the very beginning

when she would correct him in the Oval Office.  She compared the wall to

his manhood.  She`s embarrassed him. 


And now, she`s taken away something that was really important to him.  He

wanted to use that State of the Union Address to punish Democrats and

berate them over the wall. 


MATTHEWS:  To their face.


PRZYBYLA:  And she took that away from him.  It`s unclear what his end goal

was other than just rote retaliation in terms of taking away this CODEL

trip, because it doesn`t get him any closer to what he wants on a

negotiating front.




PRZYBYLA:  It`s clear she took a piece out of him in terms of taking away

the State of the Union.  Doesn`t leave us any closer to a resolution. 


MATTHEWS:  He`s facing a two-front war, Jonathan.  He`s got Rush Limbaugh

and Ann Coulter coming out from one side, Pelosi from the other.  As Kelly

O`Donnell said she just said this is existential with Trump.  If he loses

the wall, he loses the presidency. 



And it`s easy for people to forget when they`re looking at this that

basically his administration signed off on keeping the government running

last year.  Vice President Mike Pence led the Senate to believe that`s what

was going to happen and when Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter said he was

going to pay a political price, he turned around and said, no, I`m not

going to sign the bill. 


He cannot abandon that base and expect to survive.


MATTHEWS:  It`s like World War II.  Now, he faced a new enemy, Michael

Cohen.  Michael Cohen is going to testify in a couple of weeks in public. 

It seems that`s going to rock a lot of evangelicals, the people that trust

him on moral grounds, on pro-life grounds.  They`re going to hear about his

life.  This is his fixer talking. 


All those women, whatever who`s done in his last 20 years, 12 years, this

guy knows all the dirt. 


SWAN:  He does know all the dirt.  I mean, are you really thinking, Chris,

that it`s going to shake his evangelical support? 


MATTHEWS:  I`m asking, you need to look.


SWAN:  I think after “Access Hollywood”, when drove out in record numbers,

after they heard Trump himself on tape say those things, I don`t think a

Michael Cohen testimony is going to affect Trump`s evangelical base.  They

had made peace with the voting bloc largely of –




MATTHEWS:  Faking polls.  That`s to the heart of democracy.  Who`s buying

cheap, lying polls. 


PRZYBYLA:  Right, and that is an addition to other, you know, kind of

circumstantial elements we`ve seen on collusion, ranging from everyone from

Roger Stone to Rudy Giuliani now previewing WikiLeaks.  We don`t know

everything.  We don`t know the big question, which is what did Trump know? 

Was this his campaign and everyone underneath him potentially had some kind

of communications with the Russians that he didn`t know about? 




PRZYBYLA:  And so, that is the big –


MATTHEWS:  Cohen would know – Cohen I thought all along –


PRZYBYLA:  This is campaign manager. 


MATTHEWS:  Cohen sits next to the president – I worked in politics.  You

do listen to the boss all the time.  You listen to his constant worries,

almost his Popeye worries.  Worries about things.


Cohen was there for all those worries.  He would have heard everything –

you`re giving me the surmising look, Jonathan, but I think politicians talk

around their staff. 


ALLEN:  For sure not only was he listening, he was taping. 


MATTHEWS:  Go on. 


ALLEN:  I mean, we know.  We know that Michael Cohen was taping his

conversations with President Trump.  We don`t know how many tapes he has. 

We don`t know what all of the things he has will say and what Mueller has

and what the members of Congress are going to find out about. 


But not only does Cohen have testimony, but we know he has at least some

back up of testimony.  I think this show under the klieg lights of Congress

is going to be very fascinating because Michael Cohen`s entire strategy

since he turned is a public relations strategy, basically.  He wants to be

seen as the guy throwing Trump under the bus.  He wants to be seen as the

person who turned on him and did something just. 


He wants to live in Manhattan as somebody who is something other than guy

who went along with Trump the entire way.  And so, for him, this is an

opportunity to do that. 


MATTHEWS:  This is Chuck Colson going to prison reform as his cause. 



ALLEN:  Yes.


MATTHEWS:  This isn`t like John Dean.  This is the inside bad guy turning

completely 180 saying now I`m a good guy because I`m going to screw this



Anyway, meanwhile, yesterday`s attack in northern Syria that took the lives

of four Americans has underscored the concern people have with the

president`s plan to pull our troops out from Syria.  As “Foreign Policy

Magazine” writes: Inadequate policy coordination, incoherent presidential

tweets and discordant remarks by senior advisers have created confusion

across the Middle East. 


And speaking of confusion, even as Trump talks about pulling out of Syria,

we`re learning that back in September, his national security advisor, John

Bolton, raised the specter of attacking Iran.  According to “The Wall

Street Journal”, the National Security Council asked the Pentagon to

provide the White House with military options to strike Iran last year,

generating concern at the Pentagon and State Department. 


Jonathan, the one reason I looked kindly on Trump as a candidate was he

talked about no more stupid wars.  And I have to wonder why he brought

Bolton in, Mr. Neocon, who likes – who`s been saying we have to go to Iran

for years, if not, you know?  That`s what he`s doing. 


Who`s his boss now?  Is it him?  Is it Erdogan?  Is it Rand Paul?  Is it

John Bolton?  Is it Trump?


SWAN:  I think you put your finger on something which is Trump`s foreign

policy is contradictory, OK?  So, on one hand, he is withdrawing ground

forces from Syria. 


And I spoke to Rand Paul after he left the White House last night.  He

sounded like Trump.  He`s very keen on getting them out of Afghanistan as



At the same time, he has a different point in our report on the weekend. 

One of the early disputes he had with Mattis was Trump kept asking for

plans to blow up Iranian boats in the Persian Gulf, Iranian fast boats, and

Mattis vehemently disagreed with that.  And I can confirm “The Wall Street

Journal” report that Bolton did request targets inside Iran for strikes, as

retaliation for this Iranian proxy group.  Mattis had concerns about that

because he thought it would escalate what was a non-state conflict to a

state conflict. 


MATTHEWS:  Yes, and Iran is a real country.  It`s not a country carved up

by the Brits after World War I.  It`s Persia.  It`s a real country with

real history and an Israeli supported military going way back, a U.S.

supported military way back is still there. 


PRZYBYLA:  And to your point, though, I think one of the most striking

parts of the reporting in that story to your point about contradictions and

also who`s in charge was that president may not have even been aware in the

beginning that it was with Bolton, that the president, at least in the

initial stages, wasn`t even aware of it. 


MATTHEWS:  Jon, very quickly, do you think this president understands going

to war with Iran is not the same as Iraq? 


ALLEN:  No.  And I think there`s no policy process and that`s the big

problem that not only people outside the administration, but inside the



MATTHEWS:  He`s going to war with the real country.


Anyway, the round table sticking with us.  And up next, these three will

tell me something I don`t know. 


You`re watching HARDBALL.




MATTHEWS:  We`re back with the roundtable.


Jonathan, tell me something I don`t know. 


SWAN:  Two sources tell me that Tony Blair visited the White House quietly

early this week and met with Jared Kushner.  Tony Blair, famously, he tried

to work on the Middle East problem unsuccessfully, and Jared is trying to

get a deal between Israelis –


MATTHEWS:  The quartet. 


SWAN:  The quartet. 


MATTHEWS:  I bumped to him at the American College once.




PRZYBYLA:  Chris, I am proud to announce that I actually got the exclusive

that every reporter in this town has been looking for, with the former

Defense Secretary James Mattis. 






PRZYBYLA:  In the most obvious of places where you would expect to find



MATTHEWS:  What`s your scope?


PRZYBYLA:  In between the women`s racks at Nordstrom. 


SWAN:  Wow, that`s good.  What did you ask him?


PRZYBYLA:  I was there this week, I looked up and there was James Mattis. 


I`ll tell you, he was surprised.  Well, I asked him a number of things, but

the one thing I can share with you is that even though he did pen that

letter that I think raised expectations that maybe he`s ready to dish some

time soon about his experiences in that White House, he assured me that is

not happening anytime soon and I`m talking potentially years.  That was the

word he used to me. 


MATTHEWS:  Jonathan?


ALLEN:  Nancy Pelosi not going to Afghanistan.  This is a long running

fight.  Democrats have been upset that the White House has been restricting

them from going to warzones.  We can look at it as a tit-for-tat with the

State of the Union, which is much bigger. 


Stephen Lynch, one of the members that was going on this trip, put up an

amendment to defense authorization bill last year to force the Pentagon to

assist members that wanted to go to Iraq, Syria, et cetera.  It got killed

in the House Rules Committee which was then under Republican control. 

Again, the president is pulling troops out of Afghanistan right now.  The

speaker of the house wanted to go there and was not able to. 


MATTHEWS:  Lynch represents in Boston, a lot of fighting men there, a lot

of people in the service from there. 


Jonathan Swan, thank you.  Heidi Przybyla, and, thank you, Jonathan Allen. 


HARDBALL back after this.




MATTHEWS:  Let me finish tonight about a thought about this contest of

wills between the president and speaker of the House.  It began with Trump

closing down the government over his wall.  The speaker responded by saying

building a wall on the Mexican border would be an immorality.  That made it

a war of unconditional surrender. 


And then the speaker escalated the fight, suggested Trump take a rain check

on the State of the Union, or just sent out a written version or, she later

said in the Oval Office, do it at the Oval Office since the last one was

such a rip roaring success.  Don`t you think? 


And then today, Trump grounded Nancy`s airplane just as it was headed out

to Brussels and Afghanistan. 


So, what do we make of this national staring contest?  Well, I for one

suspect that Trump will blink.  That`s why he spent today messing with

Nancy`s airplane.  It`s because the same chief executive`s power he showed

in grounding the speaker`s plane is the same chief executive power he

showed in grounding the American government. 


He is the one getting blamed and he is the one the buck stops with. 


And that`s HARDBALL for now. 


“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now. 






Copyright 2019 ASC Services II Media, LLC.  All materials herein are

protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced,

distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the

prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter

or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the