Sinema adds to lead over McSally. TRANSCRIPT: 11/9/2018, Hardball w Chris Matthews.

Ron Meyer, Ginger Gibson, Jamal Simmons, Eric Swalwell, Glenn Kirschner, Joseph Sakran, Ginger Gibson, Jamal Simmons

Date: November 9, 2018
Guest: Ron Meyer, Ginger Gibson, Jamal Simmons, Eric Swalwell, Glenn
Kirschner, Joseph Sakran, Ginger Gibson, Jamal Simmons

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC: Catching the wave. Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good Friday evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

It`s been three days since Tuesday`s referendum on the President and the
blue wave keeps growing swamping more and more Republicans. House
Democrats needed only 23 new seats and are now looking to win almost twice
as many.

Meanwhile, they may be on their way to another seat in the U.S. Senate.
There`s surprising hope for Democrats in four contests where votes are
still being counted. In Arizona, Kyrsten Sinema who was behind when he
signed off Tuesday night has taken the lead over Republican Martha McSally.

Down in Florida, Governor Rick Scott`s lead over Senator Bill Nelson is
down from 56,000 votes now to just 15,000 votes, well within the margin
that could force – would force a recount.

The Florida governor`s race between Democrat Andrew Gillum and Republican
Ron Desantis also now within the threshold for a recount.

In Georgia, Democrat Stacey Abrams is also hoping to force a runoff. While
the Republicans seeing the Democrats good fortune lashing out, trying to
spread doubt about the electoral count by claiming fraud. Here`s governor
Scott accusing Democrats of, you got it, stealing the election.


GOV. RICK SCOTT (R), U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE: We have all seen the
incompetence and irregularities of vote tabulations in Broward, Palm Beach
for years. Well, here we go again. I will not sit by while unethical
liberals try to steal this elections from the great people of Florida.


MATTHEWS: Liberals.

Well, President Trump on a flight to France today took shots at the
Democrats` advances tweeting nine times about the three states that are
still in contention.

For the very latest, I`m joined by Steve Kornacki, NBC News national
political correspondent.

Steve, I can`t believe we are still on election night but here we are on
election night Friday.


And Chris, I tell you it really does feel like an election night because as
you were giving us that introduction, we just got a giant batch of new

I can tell you about in the Arizona Senate race. About 80,000 just came in
and you can see what it has done to the race here. These are from Maricopa
County. This was just announced in the last two minutes. Kyrsten Sinema,
the Democrat, her lead – when you came on the air her lead in the Sinema
was 10,000 votes. It is now 22,000 votes because of this new batch that
just came in. Again they are from Maricopa County, biggest county in the
state, around Phoenix.

The margin here, I`m just looking at the math right now to see exactly what
happened. It was about 54,000 new votes that came in for Kyrsten Sinema
and it is about 32,000 new votes that came in for Martha McSally.

So what`s happening here, Chris, is Arizona is a heavy mail-in voting
state. So what they have been counting over the last couple of days in
Maricopa in particular are ballots that were mailed last weekend, you know,
a couple days before the election. And the expectation would be that they
would favor Sinema a little, I think they are favoring her more than

There are still, even with this batch of votes we just got, there are still
probably about 375,000 votes in Arizona yet to be counted. Again, a lot of
them from Maricopa County.

Now Republicans are saying they hope that the final batch, which are going
to be ballots people dropped off at the polling place on Election Day might
favor McSally but she is starting to fall behind in this race and, you
know, might get to a place where there aren`t enough votes that are
favorable enough to her. This is very good news for Sinema what just
happened in the last couple minutes.

MATTHEWS: What about Florida? Let`s take a look. What is going on with
their? Because a lot of us have been trying to figure out what`s going on
with Broward County and why – it`s Friday night and we are still counting.

KORNACKI: Yes. So this is the deal in the Senate race right here, the
margin as you can see, Nelson is about – a little less than 15,000 votes
behind Rick Scott. Now you can see this is two tenths of a point. If it`s
a less than a quarter of a percent, it will automatically trigger not just
a recount but a manual recount. This means they are not running them
through the machines. They are also going to examine them by hand. It is
that close.

We expect between now and tomorrow, tomorrow night, the deadline for these
counties, to finalize their counts. We do expect there was provisional
ballots from around the state that are going to be counted. Expect them to
favor Nelson, probably going to net him a couple of thousand more votes sot
that should shrink a little but may still be behind Rick Scott there going
into the recount.

Broward, you mentioned though, this is very interesting because obviously,
huge County, two million people live here, hugely Democratic county.

Here`s the thing they found. In this Senate race in Florida, about 25,000
fewer votes were cast in the Senate race than in the governor`s race.
People got the same ballot, now 25,000 ballots or so there was no marking
on the Senate race. And what it appears happened here is that the design
of the ballot in Broward County essentially took that senate race and
buried it in the lower left corner of the ballot. You have a big long
instruction column. The Senate race was down here. Meanwhile, the
governor`s race is squarely in the middle top of the page, widely spaced
out. And so did about 25,000 people in this county of two million, is
heavily Democratic county of two million, did they just miss the Senate
race? That could potentially, when you look at how Nelson is winning
Broward here, if those 25,000 – we didn`t see anything like this in any
other county in the state. If those 25,000 voted in that rate, you are
talking 8,000, 10,000 extra votes there for Nelson that he would net in a
race where right now again, statewide less than 15,000.

MATTHEWS: It reminds me those all days when people down in Palm Beach
County, Jewish voters most of them, who had no reason to like Pat
Buchanan`s politics voted for Pat by accident because of the crazy ballot.

KORNACKI: Butterfly ballot, that is right.


KORNACKI: Anyway. Even Buchanan said after that election, they were not
votes for me. He said they were votes for Gore.

MATTHEWS: It`s nice to hear honesty, even in the crudest form.

Thank you so much, Steve. Amazing words (INAUDIBLE) is upset.

I`m joined right now by Ron Meyer, election law specialist who is an
associated with the Bill Nelson campaign down in Florida. Jason Johnson,
is also joining us, politics editor for And Susan del Percio,
a republican strategist. Thank you all.

Ron, you start but briefly because, I mean, we can probably spend a year
trying to figure out – by the way, my question, a real simple question,
Ron, why can`t the whole country have one measure of voting, one type of
many machine, we can all be taught like Mr. Rogers who were at eight years
old, all taught how to vote, and everyone votes the same exactly. It`s all
count the same way. It`s all on paper. And there`s no more of this crap
whole – every election where we are trying to figure out what`s going on
on Tuesday, on Friday. Your thoughts? Is it ever going to happen?

RONALD MEYER, ELECTION LAW SPECIALIST: Well, and probably, we could have -
if we can only have one machine and one uniform system country wide it
would certainly make things more efficient.

Look, the Florida law gives supervisors of elections, 67 of them around the
state of Florida, until noon tomorrow to turn in their first unofficial


MEYER: So the fact that we haven`t yet gotten to a final vote point it`s
disappointing to those of us who want instant gratification to know who is
the winner and who is the loser, but the fact is the system allows for a
deliberate county process so everybody`s vote is counted. That`s what`s so
important and critical here. The delay isn`t anything other than a desire
by the supervisors to make sure all votes are counted and counted properly.

MATTHEWS: Is there a – is there a trench (ph) or category of votes that
don`t get counted on Election Day by nature because they are overseas or

MEYER: We have overseas ballots that come in later. We have a lot of
ballots that are being contested as well. You know, Florida has a
requirement in the law for signature matches for vote by mail ballots or
provisional ballots. And there are no standards for determining whether
signatures match. So there are literally tens of thousands of ballots that
have been rejected, we submit arbitrarily by supervisors of elections that
need to be counted. These are people who voted properly, and depending on
where you live, your vote might be counted or it might not be counted.
That`s another source of the delay.

We will go into recount tomorrow when the first official – unofficial
results are tendered. We are going to go into a machine recount and that
could very well further alter the results because all of the under votes
and over votes will be segregated out by the tabulating equipment and if
as, was earlier mentioned, we are less than a quarter of a percent
difference between the two candidates those over votes and those under
votes will then be physically examined by the canvassing team to determine
whether there`s voter intent that can be gleaned.

So this election is not over yet nor should it be.


MEYER: The statutes contemplate a deliberative process to maximize the
number of ballots that are counted. Now, if you are ahead in the polling,
obviously you don`t want to do anything that might change that result. So
those are the kind of delaying tactics and fear tactics we hear from the
people such as Governor Scott who are right now marginally up in the
election. He doesn`t want these processes to unfold because it might
result in a different result.

MATTHEWS: Of course, we understand that.

Thank you so much, Ron Meyer, for your expertise.

I want to bring in Jason and Susan now.

You know, it is such a nostalgic moment in the negative say because, you
know, 18 years ago, and my favorite thing we have covered around here was
the recount in Florida. People looking up at these ballots, this the same
exact ballot and the person for Al Gore said that`s a good one, the person
for Bush, that`s no good. Same ballot.

JASON JOHNSON, POLITICS EDITOR, THE ROOT: Yes. You would think we would
have learned something since high school, right. This is how you count for
student body president.


JOHNSON: We should be more advance. Part of the issue here is that
there`s no uniformity even within the states. Within the states there
should be some uniformity about how the ballots operate.

MATTHEWS: The design of the ballots.

JOHNSON: Even the design of the ballots.

MATTHEWS: Why would you put the Senate vote down at the bottom of the left
hand corner?

JOHNSON: When those are the races that are driving the top of the ticket.

MATTHEWS: Unless you didn`t want to vote for –.

JOHNSON: Exactly. That`s what really bothers me about what Rick Scott is
doing or what we see to Brian Kemp is doing in Georgia. We have got find a
way. I hope whatever people get into all this, regardless of party, find a
way to keep these elected officials from toying with and mocking with
elections that they are on the line for.

Rick Scott shouldn`t be threatening to send in cops.

MATTHEWS: Speaking of which, Susan, even before the election last weekend,
we are into this weekend, last weekend, Brian Kemp, the secretary of state
of Georgia who has the other job of being candidate for governor was
claiming fraud there. He was saying there was hacking into the system by
the Democrats. And now we have the governor of Florida, also the candidate
for the United States Senate in Florida claiming voter fraud down there
because the Democrats want the count to continue until it`s done.

SUSAN DEL PERCIO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, here`s a funny thing. And
just so you know on the recount, if they move to a hand count in Florida,
they have to be separate counts for governor and then a separate count for
Senate. So at least two hand counts may be in play, which is just also
mind boggling.

But I think what we see here is something that happens when elections are
close, Republicans call for a recount, Democrats call for a recount when it
is this close because we know it can come down to a couple hundred votes.

We should not be, as a country we should be supporting everyone who voted.
People took the time, people took the energy, we had a lot of new voters
out there, and we have systems that are changing as well. States are
adapting to new rules and regulations as far as absentee ballot or early
ballot. So there is a learning curve. Here in New York we had a paper jam
because our ballots were double sided and a third sheet that have to reach
out to.

MATTHEWS: Same as with Maryland.

DEL PERCIO: So it is crazy.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask about the weekend, how it looks now. Because mid-
evening Tuesday night we had somebody come on the show and said no wave.
Then I see wait a minute, we might get – the Democrats might get twice the
vote they needed.


MATTHEWS: They may get up to over 40 now potentially now still. And of
course, they are still picking away at the Senate. They got another Senate
seat. They have a good shot at a (INAUDIBLE). That mean that two women
out west, Arizona and Nevada both won, that`s potential. And in Florida
even where it looked pretty dismal on election night the fight is going on.

JOHNSON: Yes. It`s a slow moving wave, right. It is almost like a
caravan. This is moving very slow.

MATTHEWS: You devil.

JOHNSON: Here`s the thing the Republicans need to understand. It is like
this is why I said this is a wave and this is why this is dangerous and
important for Republicans to pay attention to. All of this happened, all
of these seats, statehouses, the Midwest, which I have been saying all
along, the Midwest were so key –

MATTHEWS: You are right. That was Trump`s victory area.

JOHNSON: Exactly. What people have to work on as this happened with great
unemployment. This happened under a great economy. In 2020, if this
economy is not doing as well as it is now, Republicans are in trouble.

MATTHEWS: Did you notice, Susan, that people like we didn`t even cover
these races. They were such sweeps. I mean, way before we started
counting election night there are people like Bobby Casey in Pennsylvania
by like ten points, Sherrod Brown, another big, big thing, Debbie Stabenow,
they all swept reelections in states that have won for Trump. And nobody
even talked about it because there was foregone conclusion.

And then, of course, the marginal cases came through. But you know, I`m
just wondering whether we missed a big part of the story in not counting
with any surprise or excitement, all those Democratic victories in the
Midwest and northeast.

DEL PERCIO: Well, there are certainly were trying this, Chris. But you
know, when we look at polls in the media, we see the horse race. When we
look at polls in the campaign, we are constantly looking for gettable
votes. And what Republicans saw were there was only the tried and true
turnout model of midterm voters, base voters, that`s all we could get. The
Democrats saw that if they could get their message out, they could reach
new voters, they could reach nontraditional midterm voters, and that`s
where the energy went, and that`s really where I think all of us kind of
missed seeing this wave coming is the amount of increased participation
with new and nontraditional midterm voters.

MATTHEWS: I also think that Democrats being people that fall in love
rather than fall in line, they do work with their hearts, and there was so
much heart in those races that Gillum would win, that Abrams would win,
that Beto O`Rourke would win in Texas. These were long shots. They were
heavenly hopes. And because they didn`t win with their heavenly hopes, at
least not yet in Florida and Georgia, it wasn`t a great night. But by any
normal standard when you pick up twice the number of seats and you take
over the House of Representatives and the power to set tax law, and the
power to protect Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, and Obamacare, all
that powers comes from running - controlling the first things of the
federal government, all won on Tuesday night.

Thank you very much, Ron Meyer, Jason Johnson and Susan del Percio.

Coming up, have we met? It looks like Donald Trump knew Matt Whitaker
before he didn`t know him. Matt Whitaker, why is Trump covering up his
ties to the new acting attorney general, the guy who was for benefits his

Plus the NRA bashes the medical community for labelling firearms a public
health risk. Tell that to the shooting victims` families.

And President Trump said he had nothing to do with those hush money payment
to those women, who said he had affairs with them. But new reporting today
says federal prosecutors have evidence he was up to his neck. By the way,
“Wall Street Journal: reporting that.

Finally, Michelle Obama is out with a new book and she says she will never
forgive, that is a strong words, never forgive Donald Trump putting her
family at risk with all that crazy birther charge about her husband being
born over in Kenya.

This is HARDBALL, where the action is.



anything illegal happening in the 2016 election really with the Trump

The truth is there was no collusion with the Russians and the trump

I just don`t see that there is a, you know, criminal or a political, you
know – most likely an impeachment case to be made against the President.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

Well, you know why that guy was picked.

That was Matt Whitaker in 2017, not too long ago, defending a subject of
the federal investigation that he now oversees as Trump`s acting attorney
general, saying that there`s no case, criminal or otherwise, to be made
against this president.

Well, statements like those are fueling outrage over the president`s
decision to pick this obscure loyalist who`s never been confirmed by the
Senate for any job to effectively hijack the special counsel`s probe.

And now the president is trying to contain the damage. In a feeble attempt
to distance himself from his handpicked attorney general, Trump today
claimed five times that he didn`t know Matt Whitaker at all.


Matt Whitaker worked for Jeff Sessions.

But I didn`t know Matt Whitaker. I don`t know Matt Whitaker. Now, in all
fairness to Matt Whitaker, who, again, I didn`t know, Matt Whitaker is a
highly respected man. But I didn`t know Matt Whitaker.


MATTHEWS: He sure knows his name.

Anyway, the problem for Trump is that, less than a month ago, he
specifically said he did know Matt Whitaker.


TRUMP: I can tell you, Matt Whitaker is a great guy. I mean, I know Matt


MATTHEWS: Let`s watch that again.

Trump today, followed by Trump last month.


TRUMP: I don`t know Matt Whitaker.

But I can tell you, Matt Whitaker is a great guy. I mean, I know Matt


MATTHEWS: Oh, those damn tapes.

Anyway, Trump`s attempt to cover up his relationship with Whitaker was
further undercut by a damning new report breaking just tonight.

The online news site Vox is reporting that, during Whitaker`s time as chief
of staff to Sessions – quote – “He privately provided advice to the
president last year on how the White House might be able to pressure the
Justice Department to investigate the president`s political adversaries.”

And one source says that Whitaker committed to extract as much as he could
from the Justice Department on the president`s behalf.

So he was the president`s wartime consigliere.

Joining me now is Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of the House
Intelligence Committee. Heidi Przybyla is a national political
correspondent, in fact, the national political correspondent, for NBC News.
Glenn Kirschner is a former federal prosecutor.

I went all three of yous to go at this thing – yous, as we say in Philly -
- but, no, what do you make it the president basically lying, saying he
didn`t know that guy he just picked? Well, why did he just pick this guy?

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D), CALIFORNIA: Same reason he picked Kavanaugh.

MATTHEWS: So, he did know him?

SWALWELL: Yes, he knew him. He knew what he wanted to do, what he had
said in prior conversations.

He hired a hit man to take out the Mueller investigation. And, Chris, if
this had happened on Monday, we were powerless in the House. But this
happened on Wednesday. We`re not powerless anymore. The voters sent a
Democratic majority to put a check on these abuses of power.

MATTHEWS: And so, just like in “The Godfather,” he waited for mom to die
before he killed Fredo.



MATTHEWS: He just decided to drop…

SWALWELL: Well, he knew he would – he would take more losses…


MATTHEWS: This is frightening, what he`s doing.

Glenn, this is pretty broad daylight hijacking. He`s just taken over
basically the supervision of the investigation of himself.

surprised that we see the president contradicting himself. He is
completely untethered to the truth. And we have seen that.

And I thought we were going to come in here this evening and talk about how
many conflicts Whitaker has, whether it`s representing Sam Clovis, whether
it`s the reckless statements he makes.

And when I look at this through the eyes of a career prosecutor, when
somebody takes a position that there is no evidence of Russian collusion,
he hasn`t seen a shred of evidence. He wasn`t embedded in the Mueller

So I think all of those things, he would have presented to PRO, the
Professional Responsibility Office, to see whether he had conflicts that
would mean he needed to be recused. And I think they would have
recommended a recusal.

MATTHEWS: They`re not going to recuse this guy. He`s there to do it.

KIRSCHNER: But now we have learned so far beyond that with this Vox report
that just broke that says, according to multiple sources, that Whitaker is
sneaking over, basically two-timing on the Department of Justice employees,
sneaking over to the Oval Office and advising the president, whispering in
his ear, here is how we can go against your enemies and distract from the
Mueller investigation.

Well, guess what? With the president standing up and saying, I don`t even
know him, if this report is accurate, and he was in the Oval Office a dozen
times, and he was on one-on-one phone calls with the president, well, guess
what? Whitaker is now at a minimum a witness in the Mueller probe, maybe a

And you know what? Maybe they`re all conspiring.

MATTHEWS: Well, an old question, but it came to mind immediately.



MATTHEWS: Here`s the chief of staff for the – what?


PRZYBYLA: He covered everything.

MATTHEWS: No, no, there`s another part that…


MATTHEWS: Where was sleepy Jeff Sessions during the time that his chief of
staff was working to undercut him and replace him?

PRZYBYLA: Well, the question is if he knew, because, according to this Vox
report, like Glenn said, he was actually two-timing.

He was, to use the word, a mole, working to pressure Rosenstein and
Sessions in-house and advising the president as to how to do it. So this
is a step – this is – look, this is way beyond anything that Jeff
Sessions did that demanded a recusal.

This is actually trying to use – showing that he was willing to use the
Justice Department for the president`s own political ends.

SWALWELL: And the difference is, they`re all coming to Congress now.

Before, they would have got a free pass. Now they`re going to have to come
to Congress and explain what their contracts were, what pledges they made
to the president. It`s not a – it`s not a free pass…


MATTHEWS: Can you and the Congress – I asked – I advised somebody who
was calling me, saying, well, you are always dumping on Democrats, but not
giving them any thoughts.

I have a thought. I say, can`t you just ask Whitaker under oath, what has
your contact been with the president?

SWALWELL: Absolutely. That will happen, if he lasts that long.

MATTHEWS: All this comes as CNN reports that there`s a growing sense of
concern inside the White House over the negative reaction to Matthew

Senior officials say there were surprised by the criticism. What?
Surprised by the criticism, and believe it could potentially jeopardize
Whitaker`s chances of remaining in the post, if it continues – oh, that
part, I don`t believe.

I`m sorry, Mr. and Mrs. CNN. I`m sorry.

Heidi, just knowing the media, you put this guy in there as the president`s
mole, and now he`s going to be acting attorney general?

PRZYBYLA: Well, I – the question at this point, to the congressman`s
point is, what are the levers, right?

I talked with some lawyers who are looking at their options right now. And
they do believe that this is unquestionably unconstitutional, to circumvent
the advise and consent powers of Congress.

And so the question is, they`re going to be all over him like glue.
Whatever his first move is that they can find some kind of a plaintiff or a
person with cause – that`s kind of the legalistic terms – they will be
going after him.

So it`s not a question of if. It`s a question of when.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let me go back to the tough politics here.

The president has now 53, 50 – or maybe 53, maybe 54 senators coming into
January, right?

SWALWELL: That`s right.

MATTHEWS: He doesn`t need the two women that seem to have problems with
him on issues of choice and things – choice and other issues. But he`s
got a little padding there.

Can he confirm a guy like Chris Christie?

SWALWELL: No, I don`t think he can confirm any…


MATTHEWS: In other words, another kind of guy in there that will do what
he wants?

SWALWELL: I don`t think he can confirm someone who won`t allow them the
Mueller investigation to continue.

And I think it`s…

MATTHEWS: Would that be the condition of the Republicans, who have the
control over this? Would the Republicans set as a condition, we will make
you A.G., at the president`s request, we will advise the consent, but we
will not – you have to promise under oath now that you will not dump this

SWALWELL: The reason I think so is, there were 900 protests yesterday.
Many of them had thousands of people on the outside.

The map that the Senate had in this last election was the best map
Republicans have had in 100 years. In the next election, it`s much worse
for them. So I think there`s a lot of senators who are going to give real


PRZYBYLA: They only need 51 votes. They don`t need a single Democrat.
And so that`s a good question you`re asking.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, Glenn, let me ask you about the legality.

Any way that the mechanics within the Department of Justice can throw out
this presidential ringer?

KIRSCHNER: I don`t know that they can throw him out.

But if the professional – Office of Professional Responsibility, the
ethics officers say, you are conflicted, you must recuse, I don`t think he
can survive that and continue to fumble forward, particularly given these

And, look, we all know that the White House doesn`t vet the background of
anybody, whether it`s Scaramucci or Dr. Ronny Jackson. I predict, Chris,
that Whitaker`s tenure as the acting attorney general may be even shorter
than Scaramucci`s as the communications director.

MATTHEWS: Well, fumbling forward is a great metaphor, because you keep
fumbling the ball, losing control of the ball, and then grabbing it again
further downfield.

Anyway, Trump`s obvious attempt to mislead reporters about his relationship
with Whitaker puts all his claims about Whitaker in doubt, including this
claim about the Russia probe:


QUESTION: Mr. President, did you talk with Matt Whitaker at all about the
Mueller probe before you appointed him?

TRUMP: I didn`t speak to Matt Whitaker about it. I don`t know Matt


MATTHEWS: Does the president get in trouble for lying?


SWALWELL: Eventually, yes.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, I`m sorry.

And Trump all had this – also had this to say when asked if he expected
Whitaker to rein in Mueller.


QUESTION: Do you expect Matt Whitaker to be involved in the Russia probe?
Do you want him to…

TRUMP: It`s up to him.

QUESTION: Do you want him to rein in Robert Mueller?

TRUMP: What a stupid question that is. What a stupid question.


MATTHEWS: That`s nice talk.

PRZYBYLA: A little defensive.

SWALWELL: Yes. Well…

MATTHEWS: Congressman, the question was, do you expect him to rein in

SWALWELL: We`re going to prevent that.

Again, the days of them just getting away with this stuff are over. It`s
not going to happen.

MATTHEWS: Starting January 3.


We have a budget battle coming right now. And we`re going to insist upon
protecting Mueller if they want Democratic votes. You`re going to see that
coming forward.

MATTHEWS: Can you insist that he fund Mueller, that they can`t start
starving him to death?

SWALWELL: Mueller is funded through next September, I believe, yes.

MATTHEWS: OK, great.


PRZYBYLA: He didn`t have to issue the Comey oath of – loyalty oath there,
because there was all of this footage of him on TV, Whitaker on TV, showing
that he was loyal.

MATTHEWS: He auditioned for this.

PRZYBYLA: And – but let`s just tell people, the Vox reporting is that he
not only met several times in the Oval Office, but had one-on-one
conversations, phone conversations, with Whitaker as well.

KIRSCHNER: And I think – I think the answer to the question, do you want
the Mueller investigation to be reined in, his answer, that`s a stupid
question. You`re stupid.

Mueller is hearing that as consciousness of guilt. The answer is, of
course I want it reined in. Why do you think I just appointed Whitaker?


MATTHEWS: I`m not sure that`s what he wanted us to hear. But you heard
and others will.

Thank you, U.S. Congressman Eric Swalwell of California, Heidi Przybyla and
Glenn Kirschner.

Up next: There`s a battle brewing after the NRA warns doctors to stay in
their lane over gun control, doctors, the ones that save lives when they
come in with the shootings.

This is HARDBALL, where the action is.



lot of his friends, and he came home. He didn`t come home last night.

And I don`t want prayers. I don`t want thoughts. I want gun control. And
I hope to God nobody else sends me any more prayers. I want gun control.
No more guns.


MATTHEWS: Well, that`s powerful, and it`s true. And it`s a mother.

Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was a call for gun control from the mother of the victim of
Wednesday`s mass shooting out at Thousand Oaks, California.

According to the Gun Violence Archive, the United States has had 307 mass
shootings, classified as more than four people shots, since the start of
2018, just this year. And we`re on the 313th day of 2018. There`s almost
one a day.

In fact, earlier this year, the NRA tweeted an article criticized the
American College of Physicians for publishing guidelines on gun violence,
which they describe as a public health crisis.

Well, the NRA wrote: “Someone should tell self-important anti-gun doctors
to stay in their lane.”

Well, there was a swift response to that from doctors to that, tweeted –
in fact, one doctor, Dr. Joseph Sakran, the director of emergency surgery
at Johns Hopkins University, and a survivor of gun violence, tweeted: “I
cannot believe the audacity of the NRA to make such a divisive statement.
We take care of these patients every day. Where are they when I`m having
to tell all those families their loved one has died?”

Dr. Sakran, who is also a board member of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun
Violence, joins me now.

So, you have to – luckily, I have only been watching that on television
over the years. You have to walk into that waiting room at the hospital.

first say thank you very much for having me.

That communication and that rhetoric that we have heard from the NRA is a
clear demonstration to myself, the medical community and, frankly,
Americans all across this country that they are not serious about moving
the needle forward on this issue.

And the reality is, is, I have to walk into that waiting room. And,
sometimes, when I look at the faces of those mothers, sisters, fathers,
brothers, I realize that what I`m about to do is rock their world. I`m
about to change their life.

And I often think of my own experience and what my family must have thought
as that surgeon came out to talk to them. And that`s something…

MATTHEWS: You were shot.

SAKRAN: Yes, sir. Yes.

MATTHEWS: What was that circumstance?

SAKRAN: Oh, I was a 17-year-old high school student, and it was after high
school football game. And I got hit in the throat with a .38-caliber

And it was at the age of 17 – I don`t know how you are, but most 17-year-
olds, they have no idea what they`re going to do the rest of their life.
And that really inspired me, inspired me to go into medicine, inspired me
to become a trauma surgeon, and then really figure out, how do we work at
that intersection of medicine, public health and public policy?

MATTHEWS: When I hear the politicians talk, some of the evangelicals, they
talk about your First – your Second Amendment rights, like there`s almost
a sacred…


MATTHEWS: Your Second Amendment, as if it`s somehow important to your
life, whereas deal with the physical reality of taking bullets out of
people`s brains, right?

You have to do that as a surgeon. You have to try to save the lives of the
people whose lives are not saveable.

SAKRAN: Yes, I mean, Chris, look, this is an important point.

We are facing in this country of public health crisis. And, frankly, this
is not a Democratic issue. It`s not a Republican issue. This is an
American issue.

MATTHEWS: Why? Why do we have this? Other countries live – Japanese,
the British, the French, they don`t have 350 murders a year…

SAKRAN: That`s exactly right.

MATTHEWS: … in one city like Baltimore. In their whole countries, they
don`t have it.

SAKRAN: Chris, you`re absolutely right.

This is why this is a unique American problem. And until we start dealing
with this like a public health crisis, we`re still not going to be able to
move forward.

And when you look at that statement by the NRA, the reality is, is that no
single individual organization can do this by themselves. This requires a
multimodal approach, requiring stakeholders from all walks of life.

And I`m frankly surprised, because medical organizations like the American
College of Surgeons have engaged the NRA. So for them to say that we
should stay in our lane, I think, is a little bit off-basis. And they
really need to analyze how best to move this.

MATTHEWS: I wonder how the Supreme Court does this. It`s our of your
field, but we all think about – the Supreme Court says a right to carry a
gun has nothing to do with a militia, it has nothing with the language of
the Constitution, which was really about muskets.

These are Glocks, semiautomatic weapons that carry magazines that have,
what, how many, 30 shots in them. This guy just plugged everybody in that
room. Nobody knew of such a being, nobody knew of such an instrument when
we wrote the Constitution that could do that.


And, Chris, I agree with that point. But let me just bring it back to what
I think is critical, is, this is not about taking away guns. Folks want to
make it into that discussion and polarize it.

When you talk to most gun owners, we actually have a lot more in common
than we have that is dissimilar. And the reality is, is that there is a
disparity that exists between the leadership of the gun lobby and the

MATTHEWS: And I hope so.

You know what? And they said that this guy who did the shooting and then
shot himself, the 13th victim of his own hand, they said he was known the
local authorities. And you know what that story is.


MATTHEWS: He was dangerous, they knew the problem, nobody could do
anything about it under the law.

Thank you, Doctor.

SAKRAN: Thank you so much. Thanks so much for having me.

MATTHEWS: Thanks for everything you do, for everything you do, Dr. Joseph

Up next: Trump has said he had nothing to do with those hush money
payments to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal, but new reporting out
tonight shows he actually played a central role. Of course he did. But
now it`s reported. He was approving that spending by his buddy at the –
that newspaper.

You`re watching HARDBALL.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

While President Trump appears to be trying to protect himself from
Mueller`s investigation by naming Matt Whitaker as the new acting AG, he
remains exposed in other investigations outside of Mueller`s purview.

“The Wall Street Journal” is reporting tonight that Donald Trump played a
central role in the hush money payments made to adult film star Stormy
Daniels and Playboy model Karen McDougal. “The Journal” found that Mr.
Trump was involved in or briefed on nearly every step of the agreements.
He directed deals and phone calls and meetings with his self-described
fixer Michael Cohen and others. Trump initially denied knowing anything
about the hush money payments but walked back that claim during the summer.


But you have to understand, what he did, and they weren`t taken out of
campaign finance, that`s a big thing. That`s a much bigger thing. Did
they come out of the campaign? They didn`t come out of the campaign, they
came from me.


MATTHEWS: We`ll see about that. Michael Cohen pleaded guilty in August to
charges that included campaign violations – excuse me, campaign violations
relating to those payments. And he said he did it at Trump`s direction.

Let`s bring in tonight`s HARDBALL round table. Ginger Gibson, political
correspondent for “Reuters”, Ashley Pratte is a conservative commentator
and NBC Think contributor, and Jamal Simmons is Democratic strategist.

I want to start with Ginger on this because you have done reporting on
this. Now we know he was directing it. Not only directing it but the
money was coming from the guy who owns the “National Enquirer” which was,
one could argue, campaign contribution as they pick up the bill for him.

president as we saw on that video, likes to make the point that the money
didn`t come out of his campaign. But what he seems to continue to miss
that had the money come out of his campaign, that it wouldn`t have been a
campaign violation. Michael Cohen wouldn`t have anything to plead guilty

It`s the fact that it didn`t come from his campaign and it wasn`t disclosed
by his campaign. As well as the fact that the “National Enquirer” may have
been paying money to bury stories.

MATTHEWS: Catch and kill.

GIBSON: Catch and kill as they call it, taking in. And we know about
these – they had been possibly been doing this for much longer –

MATTHEWS: As a personal favor to a guy they divested themselves to,
Ashley. He was their horse in this race and they were going to make sure
he won.

who came out and said to him in that meeting, how can we help you in the

MATTHEWS: Yes. It`s in the reporting.

PRATTE: I mean, very clearly, campaign-oriented, right? So, I mean,
looking at that reporting through and through, I don`t know how Trump
really escapes this one and the connection here and how he was so involved
in it.

Plus, I mean, these reports now about his son saying he`s fearing a
possible indictment, Trump has to be on edge this week with the midterm
elections, this report coming out from “The Wall Street Journal,” this
isn`t the, you know, CNN, “New York Times” that he calls fake news, right?
I mean, this is “The Wall Street Journal”, one that should be in Trump`s

MATTHEWS: Jamal, (INAUDIBLE) as soon as this happening, but it is getting
bigger and bigger, the president has got a lot of stuff coming at him that
could cause big criminal charges and he also is doing everything he can to
prevent that.

JAMAL SIMMONS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yes, and, Chris, I just imagine the
people in Mueller`s shop sitting there coming across this evidence of wrong
doing, where does this go? I don`t know. Give it to the guy in New York.

I don`t know. What about this one? Give it to, you know?

So what we`re discovering is that Trump, as we thought, is involved with a
lot of nefarious dealings and now we`re starting to get evidence about it
that probably will lead to some sort of legal imbroglio, but can they
indict him? That`s my question. I don`t know what happens to this once we
know that it`s true.

MATTHEWS: Well, the notoriety, Ginger, doesn`t bother him.

GIBSON: The notoriety.

MATTHEWS: The people have already decided they`re for or against him. I
do argue he paid a price for “Access Hollywood” in this campaign.


SIMMONS: But he can`t be embarrassed.

GIBSON: He paid the price. He didn`t pay the price in 2016 for “Access
Hollywood.” He paid the price this week for “Access Hollywood” in 2018.

There was this notion that President Trump could just defy political
gravity, and I think we saw this week that it caught up with him and it`s
going to keep catching up to him.

MATTHEWS: Let`s go to something we hadn`t talked about in a while but we
did for a long time.

Former First Lady Michelle Obama is blasting her husband`s successor, that
would be Donald Trump, in her memoir. That`s coming out next week.

According to “The Washington Post”, which has a copy of the book, and “The
Associated Press”, they obtained their only copies, the book is called
“Becoming,” great title. The former first lady denounces President Trump`s
birther campaign, questioning her husband`s American birth as putting her
family`s safety at risk. This is hot stuff.

The whole birther thing was crazy and mean spirit-d, of course. Its
underlying bigotry and xenophobia hardly concealed. But it was also
dangerous deliberately meant to stir up the wingnuts and kooks, kooks.

As the Trump`s infamous 2005 “Access Hollywood” tape where he bragged about
grabbing women, Obama, this is Michelle said, her body buzzed with fury
when she saw that. And she also criticizes Trump for how he appeared to
stalk Hillary Clinton in the one of those 2016 election debates, describing
Trump`s message as, quote, I can hurt you and get away with it.

Wow. We haven`t got the really – here we go. When he comes in behind
her, the really gruesome stuff there.

Ashley, that is creepo.

PRATTE: Yes, a lot of what he has done has been that word right there,
creepo. When I look at the affairs, scandals, how he talks about women,
calling Dr. Christine Blasey Ford, you know, uncredible, and going out
there and making fun of her, making fun of people with special needs at his

I mean, the stuff that he does is not fitting of a president of the United
States, and I think we`ve known that for a very long time and Michelle
Obama is highlighting things that I think the American people knew and
rebuked obviously this past week by sending a Democratic Congress, and
specifically female legislators.

MATTHEWS: Jamal, will he fight back? What`s interesting about the
president? Will he dare to take on Michelle Obama?

SIMMONS: It`s very hard to take on Michelle Obama. Most normal
politicians, you would say not. Even today though, Trump flipped it and he
started going after Barack Obama instead of Michelle Obama, because it`s a
really tough thing.

PRATTE: The military?

SIMMONS: Right. Well, he had to have something. He believes in always
attacking, so he found a thing to attack.

MATTHEWS: She said she was worried about her family.

SIMMONS: But she put a human face on this thing that was so – it`s so
compassionate. And people love Michelle Obama. I think it`s – I think
it`s hurtful.

MATTHEWS: Sticking with us, the roundtable team – the roundtable team.

And up next, these three will tell me something I don`t know. You`re
watching HARDBALL.


MATTHEWS: We`re back with the HARDBALL round table.

Ginger, tell me something I don`t know.

GIBSON: Donald Trump had $35 million in his reelection campaign as of last
month, and for comparison, Barack Obama started his reelection campaign at
the same point in his administration with $2.3 million in his account.

MATHEWS: Ho he`s more randy to run than Obama was.

GIBSON: He`s got a lot of cash already squirreled away.


PRATTE: Well, being from the great state of New Hampshire, I have heard a
lot of rumblings that Senator Kelly Ayotte who is no longer in the Senate
is now being considered on the short list for attorney general.

MATTHEWS: Attorney general.

PRATTE: Along with Pam Bondi. Now, two obviously key states in elections
and two states that Trump very much cares about, New Hampshire and Florida.

MATTHEWS: I thought she was going to get U.N. ambassador.

PRATTE: Yes. So now there`s a lot of discussion about her around A.G.,
and operatives I`ve been talking to in New Hampshire, she`s been closed off
to media lately. So, that could be something right there.

MATTHEWS: I think she`ll be very successful, whatever she gets.


SIMMONS: All right. So, a lot of Democrats are upset or feeling down
about what happened on Tuesday to the two darling candidates for governor
in Georgia and Florida. But we haven`t been hearing about two lieutenant
governor candidates, African-Americans, Garlin Gilchrist in Michigan and
Mandela Barnes in Wisconsin, who are the new lieutenant governors in those
two states.

MATTHEWS: They won.

SIMMONS: They won. So, we have two African-Americans poised for state
leadership and perhaps more than that, and they`re both young, 35 and 31.
They`re young guys.

MATTHEWS: Jamal, that`s exactly what I want this segment to be about, blow
our minds with stuff we completely overlooked.


MATTHEWS: Thank you, Ashley Pratte and Jamal Simmons, and Ginger – I
started with Ginger, Ginger Gibson.

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: “Trump Watch”, Friday, November 9th, 2018.

What a weekend it`s been for the Democrats. They went into it hoping to
win just, well, 23 seats needed to control the House of Representatives,
and they end up the week with the possibility of winning almost twice that
number, up to 40 seats they might win this week.

And think of how these victories change the political reality in this
country. Instead of issuing orders to a Congress marching in lockstep,
Trump now faces a world in which he has no power to affect tax policy, no
power to cut entitlements like Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. And
thanks to what Senator Mitch McConnell said yesterday, a total surrender on

Trump himself is unlikely to admit defeat, he doesn`t – never does. But
this time he really doesn`t have to admit it. The House of Congress where
tax and spending decisions originate, the holder of the country`s purse
strings, the people`s house, the House of Representatives is now in the
secure hands of the Democratic opposition. Let`s see how Trump gets used
to that fact.

That`s HARDBAL for now. Thanks for being with us,

“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.


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