North Korea Nuclear Summit back on. TRANSCRIPT: 06/01/2018. Hardball with Chris Matthews

Caroline Polisi, Matt Apuzzo, Daniel Goldman; Rick Pildes

Date: June 1, 2018
Guest: Ted Johnson, Tim Mak, Ginger Gibson, Jonathan Lemire, Lizz Winstead

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: The road to Singapore. Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

Here is where things are headed this Friday night. We have got the latest,
of course, but who knows how long this latest is going to hold. Trump is
headed to Singapore right now. And now he says he never wasn`t headed to

Samantha Bee is getting lined up under with Roseanne Barr before a wright
right wing firing squad. And there are now reasons to ask questions about
the other far east meeting, the one on the Seychelles. It looks like
Mueller is still hot on the collusion trail.

Finally, is Donald Trump planning to pardon himself out of all his Russian

Let`s start with Trump`s train surge of romance or bromance for despotic
North Korea. (INAUDIBLE) is this power in this case Kim Jong-un`s the
greatest aphrodisiac. There is a remarkable scene at the White House this
afternoon as senior North Korean officials spent about an hour and 20
minutes inside the oval office. There he is meeting with President Trump.
Kim Jong-cho (ph) delivered a personal letter from the North Korean leader,
Kim Jong-un.

Afterwards, President Trump and his secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, posed
for photos, there they are outside with the North Korean delegation. The
result Trump announced the June 12th summit in Singapore was officially
back on. And he sounded an upbeat note about it. Let`s watch him.

I canceled it in response to a very tough statement and I think we`re over
that, totally over that. And we are going to deal and we are going to
restart a process. We are meeting with the chairman on June 12th. And I
think it`s probably going to be a very successful, ultimately a successful
process. We will see.

Remember what I say. We will see what we will see. I don`t want to use
the term maximum pressure anymore because I don`t want to use that term
because we are getting along. You see the relationship. We are getting
along. It`s not a question of maximum pressure. It`s staying essentially
the way it is.

At some point, hopefully, for the good of millions of people, a deal will
be worked out. Can you believe that we are talking about the ending of the
Korean War? You are talking about 70 years. You re incredible people. I
think it`s going to be a very great success. We will see what happens.


MATTHEWS: They are incredible people. Well, the White House first
announced in March that Trump agreed to meet with Kim Jong-un. And from
that point until today, the path toward Singapore has been, you might say,


TRUMP: North Korea, Kim Jong-un, would like to meet with President Trump.

Things have changed radically from a few months ago. You know the name
calling and a lot of other things.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you deserve to.

TRUMP: Everyone thinks so but I would never say it.

If you look at that model with Gadhafi, that was a total decimation. We
went in there to beat him. Now, that model would take place if we don`t
make a deal most likely. But if we make a deal, I think Kim Jong-un is
going to be very, very happy.

Based on the recent statement of North Korea, I have decided to terminate
the planned summit in Singapore on June is 12th.

We will be meeting on June 12th in Singapore. It went well.


MATTHEWS: For more, I`m joined by “Washington Post” White House reporter
Ashley Parker. She is an MSNBC political analyst and vice President for
national security at Third Way Mieke Eoyang. Thank you for joining us.

So what happened today?

happened was basically a top envoy from North Korea went to the White
House, delivered this sort of oversized personal letter that the President
may or may not have read depending which version of his you believe. And
it basically started the ball back rolling to a summit that despite harsh
language about a week or so ago, no one including in the White House ever
believed it was merely truly 100 percent off.

MATTHEWS: And what is this meeting going to be? Because it was to get rid
of their nuclear weapons. And now the President said, well, it`s going to
be a get acquainted meeting like what they called just lunch? Is that what
goes on into dating world? Now, you just meet for lunch but it`s not
really a big deal like dinner. Is that what it is? He is really lowering
the bar what they expect. It`s a familiar – go ahead, Mieke.

say, every time he talks about this, he is really lowering expectations
about what we are actually going to get. And so, he is not actually trying
to negotiate to address the real security threats that face America. He is
no longer talking about the ballistic missiles. He is no longer talking
about reducing their nuclear weapons programs. He is just talking get to
know you. It feels more like an eighth grade romance with it is on and
again off again that it feels like an international summit on nuclear

MATTHEWS: What can we expect from it? I mean, it seems to me that there`s
a danger here if nothing happens, nothing is going to be pretty clearly
nothing. If you walk out of the door in Singapore, I don`t know if they
are having this at raffles or where over there, they are going to have a
meeting and they are going to come out of it in a couple of hours.

My concern as an American, in this, I`m clearly one of – this is a
nonpartisan thing at this point. My question is, we went into Panmunjom
back in the summer of 1951. We didn`t get out of Panmunjom for two years.
The North Koreans like to talk because it brings us down to their level.
And then they conduct their missile testing and everything else while they
are talking.

PARKER: Well, OK. A couple of things. The first challenge is the
President is going into this without a real framework. As you said, for
what they hope to get out of this, what the goals are, what the
expectations are according to people we have talked to, they really have

That said, the President basically again, he wants to win. He wants the
deal. It`s very unclear what exactly that looks like. But if he does fly
all the way over there and they do have a meeting, it`s hard to imagine him
walking out without anything although it remains to be seen if that thing
is something real and tangible or sort of a (INAUDIBLE) victory, something
he can announce and nothing actually happens.

MATTHEWS: Where is that troublemaker John Bolton? Waiting in the
background to just beat this thing up somehow? He is out there saying they
have got to get rid of not just nuclear, but if they have got biological,
if they have got chemical, whatever they have got. He is trying to reduce
them to ashes. That`s always what Bolton wants. He doesn`t want to
negotiate with anybody. He wants to destroy them.

EOYANG: That`s right. Bolton is about unilateral surrender of your
opponents. He wants them just to give up everything and we give nothing.
And he is using language that Trump himself has walked away from. Bolton
was the one who started talking about this Libya example where Libya gave
up their nuclear weapons but then Gadhafi was dragged through.

MATTHEWS: He has never apologized for Iraq or Libya or any of that stuff.

EOYANG: Exactly. He can`t see the way that resonates with the North
Koreans and how that is really upsetting them up.


EOYANG: Exactly.

MATTHEWS: Common sense is the Libyan model means you end up in a sewer
pipe with then people destroying your body afterwards for their own joy.
That`s a nice concept to think forward to. Anyway, at first Trump told the
press that the let delivered from Kim Jong-un was interesting. Let`s watch
him say that.


TRUMP: This was a meeting where a letter was given to me by Kim Jong-un
and that letter was very nice letter. Oh, would you like to see what was
in that letter. Would you like it? How much? How much? How much? It
was a very interesting letter. At some point, it may be appropriate. And
maybe I will be able to give it to you. Maybe you will be able to see it.


MATTHEWS: Is he like Carnac on Johnny Carson, he can see in the envelope?
I mean, he said it is very interesting. (INAUDIBLE) then he is auctioning
(ph) it off. And then a few minutes later he said he hasn`t read it.
Let`s watch him there.


TRUMP: I haven`t seen the letter yet. I purposely didn`t open the letter.
I haven`t opened it. I didn`t open it in front of the director. I said
would you want me to open it. He said you can read it later. I may be in
for a big surprise, folks.


MATTHEWS: Well, an hour later, you got to keep up with this guy, the White
House told NBC News that the President has now read the letter and there
were quote “no surprises.” But was there interesting in the letter that he
hadn`t read that he said was interesting?

PARKER: Well, I mean, if you believe him and I`m inclined to believe his
second explanation that he had not actually read the letter.

MATTHEWS: There was none of the snootiness in the last about communicate
from Kim Jong-un?

PARKER: It`s hard to imagine there was that level of rhetoric because
that`s what caused him to call the whole thing off. So again, you sort of
got sense the President is a top line guy. There`s a different sort of
President who might have been pouring over the letter, every comma, every
word before he went out and made a statement. That`s just simply not who
Donald Trump is.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let me ask you to be not conspiratorial because you are a
straight reporter, Ashley. And I respect the Post and you for that. But
it seems – this is out of your line of work for a second, Mieke. If he
says we are now going to meet on June 12th, that means he has got another
two weeks with Giuliani to play the game they play which is we can`t meet
to talk about anything to do with the Russia probe until we have met with
Kim Jong-un. So this gives him another stand back of execution for a
couple more weeks, doesn`t it?

PARKER: It does. It absolutely does. I do have to say, I don`t think
that is the driving force because as you have seen with this President and
Giuliani, if it wasn`t the summit, it would be something else. They are
very good –.

MATTHEWS: You mean like the tax returns, we will show you when they are
audited, yes.

PARKER: Yes, exactly. They are very good at the public relations
campaign. The summit was a convenient delay tactic. But there will always
be something else. Wanting those documents on spygate, so-called spygate
for instance.

MATTHEWS: Let`s talk about this Korean thing. Trump also said that he
knows North Korea wants to nuclearize – denuclearize. Let`s watch his
assumptions here.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, what`s your stance of what the North
Koreans are willing to do on the issue of denuclearization?

TRUMP: Well, I think they want to do. I know they want to do that. They
want other things along the line. They want to develop as a country.
That`s going to happen. I have no doubt.


MATTHEWS: Mieke, that`s the assumption of previous Presidents going back
to Bill Clinton and certainly W. And the assumption that the North Koreans
are rational in terms of cost benefit. That if their nuclear program was
costing them to be isolated from the world, to be impoverished forever,
they would choose against it. But they haven`t been that way. They
haven`t been logical that way. Just like LBJ thought he could buy the
North Vietnamese with a big economic program like the TVA the Tennessee
Value Authority. People are nationalistic. They have their own purposes.
Is North Korea interested in a deal?

EOYANG: I think they are but not for the reasons that Donald Trump
understands it, right. They view the nuclear weapon as the guarantee of
regime stability. They have watched other regimes give up their nuclear

MATTHEWS: So what do they deal with? What do they deal – if they can`t
deal that off?

EOYANG: That`s the real question. Now they have these ballistic missiles
that could potentially hit the United States. That`s the bargaining point
where they could try and keep the weapons and get rid of the delivery.

MATTHEWS: So they could only hit Japan and South Korea?

EOYANG: Right, which is sufficient, right, from a world perspective. You
don`t want that to happen. But Trump does – he really does need this
period to figure out what his negotiating position is and what they can
realistically ask for here. Because when the Koreans say they are willing
to denuclearize, what they mean is that they want the U.S. nuclear powered,
right, nuclear capability out of South Korea and Japan. They don`t want us
to be able to strike them.

MATTHEWS: Wait. The Polaris sub that keep 500 miles away or what?

EOYANG: They want us out of the region.

MATTHEWS: What does that mean? How are we in now?

EOYANG: So we obviously are not stationing in Japan but we have the
ability to strike them. And they are worried about American military

MATTHEWS: But how can we remove our ability to hit them with Polaris
missiles from where we are standing (ph) in the world.

EOYANG: We can`t. But this is the confusion about denuclearization that
they are playing.

MATTHEWS: OK. The genius of Polaris missile is you never know where the
subs are.

EOYANG: Exactly.

MATTHEWS: And I don`t know whether they are going to know it either. But
we will see.

Anyway, thank you. At least that`s something. I do think that is what
they are up to. Take away the nuclear umbrella from South Korea so they
can threaten to attack whenever they want through their tunnels which they
are not going to seal off, by the way, as part of this deal, are they?
They like those tunnels.

Anyway. Thank you Ashley Parker. Thank you, Mieke Eoyang.

Coming up, this is the week the culture wars erupted. Roseanne Barr first
lost her job after a racist tweet about an aide of President Obama. And
now President Trump wants comedian Samantha Bee fired for her vile word
about his daughter. Well, that is all ahead. It is going to be a firing

Plus, exclusive new reporting from NBC News on that secret meeting in the
Seychelles between Trump allies, Russians and officials from the United
Arab Emirates. Special counsel Robert Mueller is digging in that. He is
still looking for collusion over there. And now a close friend of Jared
Kushner is under scrutiny. This is so interesting, it just keeps growing
this web of Russian connections all around the world.

And Donald Trump has always shown a willingness to do whatever he has to do
to get out of hot water. So, is he one to use his powers to pardon his way
at any trouble he may be coming – that may be coming to him from the
Russian probe? It looks like it.

Finally, Trump`s fixer Michael Cohen might look like the fall guy now. But
there`s reason to believe that his reputation of being a pitball is for
real. We are going to be joined by a reporter who has gone up against
Michael Cohen when he faced the bullying and intimidation from Michael
Cohen that it was all caught on tape. That`s cool for us.

This is HARDBALL where the action is.


MATTHEWS: Well, President Trump today broke with another long-standing
protocol, giving an early hint of positive job numbers an hour before the
jobless report was released officially by the labor department.
Administration officials are not supposed to disclose the data ahead of
time for fear of politicizing is the report or moving the stock markets.
Well, despite that, shortly after 7:00 a.m. this morning, Trump tweeted
looking forward to seeing the employment numbers at 8:30 this morning.
Well, so is the rest of the country. About an hour later the labor
department announces the economy added 223,000 jobs in May, that is this
past month, beating analysts` expectations. Great economic news. The
unemployment rate dipped to 3.8 percent, the lowest level in 18 years. Our
economy professor – economic professor you couldn`t get below 4.0.

Anyway, national economic council director Larry Kudlow confirmed too today
that he had briefed Trump on that report yesterday evening. So Trump got
early word and used it. Kudlow, however, downplayed the significance, of
course, to the President`s tweet. Of course, he has to.

We will be right back.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

This was the week the culture wars exploded on television. Roseanne Barr,
of course, an outspoken supporter of President Trump was fired by ABC
Tuesday after sending a racist tweet about a former senior advisor to
Barack Obama, Valerie Jarrett. Well, Barr apologized but also suggested
there was a political double standard at work to her firing.

Then on Wednesday, that would be the next day, late night host Samantha Bee
used a vulgar word, I think we all agree on that, to describe Ivanka Trump
during a segment criticizing the White House policy on migrant children.
Here goes a bit of it with a (bleep) in it.


SAMANTHA BEE, TV HOST: Do something about your dad`s immigration practices
you if (bleep). He listens to you.


MATTHEWS: Well, Bee apologized the next day. CBS which airs her show
issued its own apologies but took no action beyond that.

Today Donald Trump tweeted why aren`t they firing no talent Samantha Bee
for the horrible language used on her low ratings show? A total double

It was a very different reaction he had earlier in the week to the news ABC
canceled Roseanne. Trump never said anything about Barr`s tweet but he
took issue with the fact that the chairman of Disney personally reached out
to Valerie Jarrett to apologize.

Trump wrote gee, he never called President Donald J. Trump. Isn`t that
like Julius Caesar referring yourself in the third person? He never called
President Donald J. Trump to apologize for the horrible statements made and
said about me on ABC. Maybe I just didn`t get the call.

Well for more I`m joined by Lizz Winstead, co-creator of the daily show,
Ted Johnson, Senior editor of “Variety,” Sophia Nelson, a former House
Republican committee council and a contributory to NBC. Think that is where
all our brains get together, the right stuff.

Liz, you have been in the business. It seems to me that writing for comedy
has standing up in front of a brick wall or on television, you have to be
like a race driver. You got to race as fast as you can but not get killed
which is a tricky business every night of your life. And sometimes you get


MATTHEWS: Let`s talk about it. What do you make about the first one,
Roseanne Barr? Was that a firing offense from your perspective by ABC?
Was it fair she was knocked out of a comeback career?

WINSTEAD: Yes. Totally fair. I mean, when you literally out of thin air
decide to use something that has been a symbol of dehumanizing imagery and
a way to literally make black folks lesser than everyone else.

MATTHEWS: A lesser species yes.

WINSTEAD: Absolutely. When you put that out there, and that`s just
horrifying enough. But when ABC and Roseanne were all doubling down on
they wanted to do this reboot of Roseanne to really talk about not the
racist imagery that so many liberals had been putting forth, but to really
talk about the disenfranchised, economically vulnerable voters, you know

And then this spews out. It falls in the face of every single reason they
said they wanted to reboot the show in the first place.


MATTHEWS: Yes, it`s a worst-case scenario for everybody.

Sophia, your thought on that. We will work our way through this.

What about Samantha – what about Roseanne Barr? Should she have been

SOPHIA NELSON, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Absolutely she should have been canned.

And if we`re doing a comparison contrast to Samantha…

MATTHEWS: Well, rMDNM_let`s get to that first.


MATTHEWS: I want to get you on the record here.

Ted, what do you think of this? was this seen as fair by the world, by
you, firing of Roseanne Barr? She`s gone now, no more comebacks, probably.


I immediately thought, bizarrely enough, of going back 30 years to Jimmy
the Greek. He said some racist comments.


MATTHEWS: I think he had three or four glasses of wine at…


MATTHEWS: … for lunch.


MATTHEWS: But then he said – he talked about why African-Americans don`t
get these coaching jobs. He said they don`t have – and this isn`t even
English – they don`t have the necessaries.

You know, he was obviously making a statement about I.Q. and all. But it
was awful and he was finished. And then there was of course Howard Cosell,
who was great in so many ways and I think a good guy, who made that comment
about a monkey, too.

And I think there`s something in the brain with some of these people.

JOHNSON: Well, and my point is, it`s nothing new that you get fired for
saying racist comments.

MATTHEWS: Well, but people always do.

Anyway, in a statement yesterday, the president`s spokesperson, Sarah
Huckabee Sanders, wrote: “The language used by” – here we are the second
case – “Samantha Bee last night is vile and vicious. The collective
silence by the left and its media allies is appalling.”

Now, back to you, Lizz.

The silence of the lambs, in this case President Trump, was overwhelmingly
silent. It was deafening, the silence. He didn`t say jack against
Roseanne Barr and what she said. And then they come out, his spokesperson
coming out and saying how silent it is among the left for not going after
Samantha – well, silence seems to be the deal here on both sides.

Your thoughts?

WINSTEAD: I feel like they`re two different things.

If you`re upset about the use of the C-word, that`s a different
conversation, what that means.

MATTHEWS: Well, what was your reaction? Should she be fired for it?

WINSTEAD: No, I don`t think she should be fired for it.

I think comparing the history of Ivanka Trump`s behaviors towards – saying
she`s an advocate for women, and yet standing by silently as the
international gag rule is reimposed, as the policy…

MATTHEWS: OK. Well, that`s a word used, because you can live with this.

Can you live with this, Sophia? Should she be fired, Samantha Bee?

NELSON: I actually believe Samantha Bee should be fired. I believe
Roseanne Barr should have been fired.

And I`ll tell you why I have issues with Samantha Bee. That word is vile
in and of itself. But for someone in her position with a show – and her
producers have some culpability here, because this was taped. This wasn`t
live TV, like we`re doing right now.

MATTHEWS: Yes. That`s one of the bizarre pieces of this.

NELSON: And it sets the bar low.

MATTHEWS: So, they all agreed this will pass muster.

NELSON: Yes. And you talk about the culture wars, this is where. We were
talking about it in the break. We`re at the lowest common denominator now.

MATTHEWS: Who defined decency downward in this country?

NELSON: Donald Trump.

MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you.

NELSON: Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: Ted, break the tie here.


MATTHEWS: Should Samantha Bee be fired? Do people – well, I`m going to
ask you a real reporter`s question. Ready?

Will the corporate power structure that decides these things come down on
her or not?

JOHNSON: Well, two things. Two things.

The first thing is that, if they fire her now, they will look like they`re
getting rid of her in response to President Trump. That raises a whole
other set of issues for the corporation.

The second thing…

MATTHEWS: You mean like they did with the football players.

JOHNSON: Yes. Yes. The corporation will having more criticism.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, here we go.

“The Washington Post”`s Philip Rucker, who is on – sits up here
oftentimes, who covered Trump as a candidate in 2016, tweeted today: “For
what it`s worth, the word Samantha Bee used” – that word today – “and
words such as that was emblazoned on many a T-shirt worn and sold at Trump
rallies throughout the 2016” – Donald Trump, look, a lot of what is said
out there is just old Trump stuff.

But that word, I have heard – I never saw it, because I don`t think the
cameras would focus on it, TV cameras. Apparently, went out and looked at
a tape. Our producer showed to me. It was prevalent.


MATTHEWS: And Trump never complained about it and said, you shouldn`t use
that word.

I`m sorry. Do you want to go back – back to you, Lizz.

WINSTEAD: And I just want to add to that, Ted Nugent used that word
against Hillary Clinton, and was welcomed into the Oval Office.

NELSON: He did.

WINSTEAD: So, stop clutching your pearls.

NELSON: But let`s get back to the issue here.


MATTHEWS: That was a class statement, but it was pretty good.

Go ahead.

Stop clutching your pearls.


MATTHEWS: Go ahead.

NELSON: We have two prominent women who are comedians who both had a
really bad week.

The ape comment is a problem for the reasons Lizz said. That has racial
connotations that go back to our founding as a country and the slavery
issue and how people saw Africans at that time, that they were less smart,
less attractive.

MATTHEWS: That was the biblical case for it.

NELSON: Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: Yes, that, basically, they were born as slaves, stewards.

NELSON: Absolutely.

So, to the question of what should be done, I actually think that the
corporate pressure on TB – is it S – TBS that has her?


NELSON: I think they are going to have to get rid of her. ABC did the
right thing and they did it real quick. They didn`t hesitate.

They cut it off. It`s just like Starbucks. Starbucks survived what they
went through because they were real quick.

MATTHEWS: Well, it comes down to constituency, everybody, here, because
I`m a little bit cynical about this.

Which constituency? Racial, you offended 20 percent of the country or 30
percent of the country right off the bat.

NELSON: Right.

MATTHEWS: They`re not going to like it. They`re not going to go to
Disneyland anymore, Orlando or California. But this one – this offends


NELSON: Don`t forget “Black Panther.”

MATTHEWS: This women…


JOHNSON: I actually – my other point is, I think a lot depends on who
shows up to protest what Samantha Bee said. I think that…

MATTHEWS: It`s the constituencies. If nobody shows up…


WINSTEAD: Nobody`s going to protest.


JOHNSON: I think, in the case of Roseanne Barr, ABC could have looked at
that and said, you can name five different groups that are going to


JOHNSON: … boycotts..



First of all, it was recidivism. She had done it before with Susan Rice,
the same reference, the same animal connection, the same awful thing that -
- you`re so right – it goes back to the primordial racism of nature
practically in this Western civilization.

NELSON: Absolutely. Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: Thank you.

It justifies colonialism and all kinds of other things, right.

NELSON: Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: Lizz Winstead, thank you, Ted Johnson.

This is big stuff. And it`s going to be a big conversation in this country
this weekend.

Sophia, wisdom, by the way. That means wisdom. Wisdom Nelson.

NELSON: Thank you.


MATTHEWS: Up next: exclusive reporting from NBC News. Special counsel
Mueller is now zeroing in on one of Jared Kushner`s close buddies. He was
in the Seychelles out there in the Indian Ocean about the same time that
Trump allies held a secret meeting to set up a back channel with the

This – the goes on.

This is HARDBALL, where the action is.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

Among the many unexplained contacts between the president`s associates –
that would be Trump people – and the Russians – they would be Putin`s
people – was a secret meeting just before Trump`s inauguration back in
January of `17 held in the remote island nation of the Seychelles.

Look at it way out there in the Indian Ocean.

Anyway, it was there, it was there that Erik Prince, an informal Trump
adviser, met with Crown Prince Mohammed of the United Arab Emirates and his
adviser, George Nader, as well as with a Russian oligarch with close ties
to Mr. Putin himself. There he is.

The reported purpose was – quote – “to establish a back channel between
the incoming administration of Donald Trump and the Kremlin.”

Well, now NBC News is reporting that special counsel Robert Mueller is
scrutinizing another figure who happened to be, happened to be in the
Seychelles about the same time as that meeting.

According to NBC News, that is figure, a New York hedge fund manager named
Rick Gerson, is a close friend of Jared Kushner`s, the president`s son-in-
law. Most intriguing, however, is that Gerson is also connected to at
least two participants of that meeting about a Kremlin back channel.


“While in the remote Indian Ocean island nation, Gerson met with Prince
Mohammed, also known by his initials as MBZ, and communicated with George
Nader, who had organized that Erik Prince meeting itself.”

The development adds a new layer of intrigue, I would say, to an already
strange set of circumstances. And, as NBC News reports, Mueller`s team has
asked witnesses about Gerson`s proximity to that Seychelles meeting, as
well as another meeting a month earlier in New York City.

A spokesperson for Rick Gerson told NBC that: “Mr. Gerson was on vacation
in the Seychelles prior to the meeting you reference. He knew nothing
about the meeting.”

Well, however, Gerson declined to say – well, his lawyer declined to say
whether Gerson has been personally contacted by Mueller.

Joining me to break this down is Ken Dilanian, an investigative reporter
for NBC.

Ken, you know, it has an aspect of, you know, connections to Kevin Bacon,
how many degrees of separation. But it always – how many people go to the
Seychelles? Does Mueller believe it`s a coincidence that this buddy of
Kushner`s, the president`s son-in-law, happened to be right near that
meeting where apparently the back channel with the Russians was being set

both know, Chris, that prosecutors don`t tend to believe in coincidences.

And that`s why they`re scrutinizing this very closely, because this is a
close friend of Jared Kushner. And while there are nice beaches in the
Seychelles, it`s not an obvious place for an American to go on vacation and
be in text communication with this guy George Nader, who is a very
important figure in setting up this apparently back channel.

MATTHEWS: Well, let`s talk.

I will be a little bit skeptical now.


MATTHEWS: Why – we have meetings that have occurred beginning in `16,
well before the nomination of Donald Trump, when he was just a candidate.
There were meetings, of course, at the Mayflower Hotel here in Washington,
the meetings, the famous one or infamous one in June at the Trump Tower.

There were meetings the RNC Convention, Republican Convention, with
Kislyak, the ambassador from Moscow, in all these meetings. There was the
meetings in the office, the Senate office of Jeff Sessions. All of these
meetings in public daylight.


MATTHEWS: And then they have to meet in the Seychelles, with tertiary
partners representing each other.

Why would they be so scared to meet they have to meet over there if they`re
walking around in daylight in the United States meeting?

DILANIAN: I think that`s a fair question, a good question.

But we know that the Seychelles is a place where this crown prince of Abu
Dhabi liked to do business. It`s closer to his home turf.


DILANIAN: And the fact that Erik Prince of Blackwater fame was involved
and does a lot of business in the Middle East may have factored in.

But the bottom line here is, the reason Mueller is interested in this is
because George Nader, this Lebanese American businessman, is cooperating
with Mueller and is telling him that this was a back channel.


DILANIAN: This was a way for the Russians to meet with officials in the
Trump administration or send messages to them about better relations with

Don`t forget, this is after the election, before Trump took office.

MATTHEWS: Yes, in January.

Anyway, according to NBC`s reporting, Rick Gerson has been friends with
Kushner for more than a decade. However, Gerson first met George Nader
just weeks before his trip to the Seychelles at another secret meeting at
the Four Seasons Hotel in New York in mid-December, right after election.

The participants at that meeting included Gerson, Jared Kushner, George
Nader and the crown prince of the UAE, along with Trump`s National Security
Adviser Michael Flynn and Trump`s political adviser Steve Bannon.

So, what everybody`s watching who aren`t the experts – and nobody is like
you, Ken – do you – let me just ask you about, as we move towards a
declaration of guilt, perhaps – I expect to have one from Robert Mueller.

We know it`s going to deal with obstruction and first instance.


MATTHEWS: Is he still building a heavy body of evidence regarding
collusion with the Russians?

DILANIAN: It sure looks that way, Chris.

MATTHEWS: At the same time?

DILANIAN: Because subpoenas are going out even as of a few weeks ago on
the Roger Stone aspect of potential collusion. And now we know that he`s
looking at this.

I mean, what we don`t know, what evidence he`s already gathered,
particularly what goes to, for example, what Donald Trump the candidate
knew about that Trump Tower meeting that his son set up.


DILANIAN: But he is clearly still investigating that.

The question is, what does he have?

MATTHEWS: I have called him the iceberg, because, since we were kids, we
know that the iceberg, including the one that sunk the Titanic, you don`t
really see it.


MATTHEWS: You only see about 10 percent.

I – is that the way – that`s the way I look at Bob Mueller`s operation.
You don`t see 90 percent.


I think I know less about it as time goes on. Just the idea that Kushner
got a security clearance, some people believe that means he`s in the clear,
he`s not in criminal jeopardy.

Other people say, that`s absolutely not true.


MATTHEWS: Well, I`ll tell you, there`s never been any person that looks
more like not even God himself can sink me than Donald Trump.

Anyway, thank you, Ken Dilanian.

DILANIAN: You bet, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Up next: President Trump is brandishing his pardon power,
right, and offering the signal all those ensnared in the Mueller probe. Is
Trump looking to pardon his way out of Russian probe?

Look at him smiling. Of course he is.

This is HARDBALL, where the action is.



RESPONSIBILITY FOR 9/11”: The president said, “Dinesh, you have been a
great voice for freedom.”

And he said, “I have got to tell you, man to man, you have been screwed.”


D`SOUZA: He goes: “I have been looking at the case. I knew from the
beginning that it was fishy.”

But he said, upon reviewing it, he felt a great injustice had been done,
and that using his power, he was going to rectify it, sort of clear the


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was conservative commentator Dinesh D`Souza talking on “FOX & Friends”
about the call he received from President Trump just last week letting him
know that he was being pardoned.

Well, Trump said D`Souza was treated unfairly by the government.

Sound that – sound familiar? He gave a similar justification for two
other pardons he`s now weighing. One is for Martha Stewart, another for
former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich.

Well, Trump has also used that same language about people being screwed by
the government talking about his associates, of course, who are now wrapped
up in the Mueller probe. Here he goes.


Fourth of July weekend, went to the FBI, not under oath. She lied many
times. Nothing happened to her. Flynn lied, and it`s like they ruined his
life. It`s very unfair.

I have always found Paul Manafort to be a very decent man. I don`t know.
But I thought that was a very pretty tough stuff.

Michael would represent me and represent me on some things. He represents
me like with this crazy Stormy Daniels deal. He represented me and you
know, from what I see, he did absolutely nothing wrong.


MATTHEWS: Well, former Trump political adviser Roger Stone told “The
Washington Post” that Trump`s recent pardons have to be a signal to Mike
Flynn and Paul Manafort and even Robert Mueller, indict people for crimes
that don`t pertain to Russian collusion and this is what could happen. The
special counsel has awesome powers, this is Stone talking, as you know.
But the president has even more awesome powers. He`s bragging about how
the president can pardon everybody.

Let`s bring in the HARDBALL roundtable tonight. Tim Mak, political
reporter for NPR, Ginger Gibson is political reporter of “Reuters”, and
Jonathan Lemire is White House reporter for the “Associated Press.”

Jonathan, it seems to me he`s out there showing his stuff, you know? Those
are practice baskets before an NBA game. He`s shown I can hit from out
here and I`m going to do it.

Force One yesterday when The sprung the discussion of pardons on us, about
not just Dinesh D`Souza, but considering for Martha Stewart and for
Governor Blagojovich. And it does seem like there`s a message being sent

First of all, he is suggesting this is a part of the presidency that works
like he thinks it should. He`s been so frustrated with the legislative
process. He`s been frustrated with members of his own staff.

MATTHEWS: Like a monarchy.

LEMIRE: Exactly right. But this is something that he can just snap his
fingers and do which is how he used to run his business. So, I think he`s
very comfortable –

MATTHEWS: Why has he been so sparing, Ginger, and only going after a
couple people, now Dinesh. He hasn`t really shown his – you know, shown
his muscle here yet. He seems to me – if he does think he has a clear
shot, why not do more of these?

campaigned against bad guys, you know? People that were committing
grievances against him and against his supporters.

He can no longer rail against an administration when he is the
administration. So, he`s finding other bad guys injustice, the criminal
justice system, other past grievances against him and his supporters. He
needs a bad guy, otherwise, he can`t be the tough guy he wants everyone to
believe he is.

MATTHEWS: Is this like deregulating people that are polluters? He
basically said they`ve had a hard time. I`m going to get them. They`re
overregulated. So, I`m going to free them all. I`m going to free all
these people who have been unfairly judged.

TIM MAK, POLITICAL REPORTER, NPR: There`s a specific reason he may be
trying to send a signal, but there`s a broader reason why it might be
sticking, right? This is a broader feeling in the conservative movement
and amongst Trump`s base. There`s a lot of unfairness from people who are
in positions of power. That is –

MATTHEWS: Martha Stewart is a big deal. She`s a bigger deal than most
people working for the federal government. She`s not one of the little

MAK: But the little – yes, but the little people are what they`re
reacting to is this idea of unfairness amongst our institutions of power.
It`s not oh, boohoo, Martha Stewart. It`s the Justice Department is
against us. Big tech is against us. Hollywood is against us.

MATTHEWS: OK, let me try something. I`m more political than any of you
guys. I`m looking at the categories of people he`s let off. Scooter
Libby, Mr. Neo-con. He gets after Dinesh D`Souza, one of the most rabid
right wingers around – commentators. He`s picking up people – Arpaio,
illegal immigrants, hate them.

He seems like he`s finding categories of people and giving each iconic
representative of each one of the communities, I like all you communities
backing me.

LEMIRE: You know, there`s three categories, as you just said, certainly,
those pardoned people who have had their causes championed by
conservatives, those who have had their causes championed by celebrities
like Jack Johnson and those who are on “Celebrity Apprentice”, which is
Martha Stewart and Rod Blagojevich.

Both of them. Yes, I mean, those are the people he knows. That`s the
world he knows. And those are the folks he wants to send a signal with.

And, yes, I think there`s no question whether it`s Flynn, it`s Manafort, or
other people in the probe, that`s part of this, too. Look, I have this
power. I`m not afraid –

MATTHEWS: Do you guys agree that he will use it to protect himself? If
Jared Kushner is prosecuted, will he move immediately? If his son, a
namesake, Donald Jr. gets nailed, will he move immediately? Do you think
there`s any doubt in your minds? Anybody here, others do it like –

MATTHEWS: Do you have any doubt in your mind? He might not spring his
son-in-law, he might not spring his daughter –


MAK: I think the Ivanka line is the red line. That`s pretty clear.

MATTHEWS: Not the son?

MAK: In-law.

MATTHEWS: Was it Fredo? I`m talking about the son Eric or Donald Jr.

GIBSON: There`s a political risk to doing this. There`s a lot of
potential backlash. I mean, would he do it three months before his own re-
election –


MATTHEWS: Look, I`ve been here, one Friday afternoon, he decides he was
going to pull back on the birtherism just like that. He said President
Obama is a United States citizen born in this country. And he had no
problem 180-ing on everything he had said before.

What`s to say on a Friday afternoon before Halloween he just says, you know
what, I`m going to pardon everybody who is in trouble and there will be a
lot of squealing about this for three or four days because, you know, Mitch
McConnell is going to do anything. The courts aren`t going to do anything.
So, why shouldn`t I?

MAK: There`s a political and legal risk to it. The backlash you`ll get in
medium or the short term –

MATTHEWS: Where does he get from the medium, from us?

MAK: From the press.

MATTHEWS: Do you think “Fox & Friends,” that Supreme Court that meets
every morning for a couple of hours? Do you think that crowd –

MAK: There`s a legal consequence to this. It could be added to larger
evidence about obstruction of justice.

MATTHEWS: This Supreme Court is going to come after Trump on pardons?

MAK: No, not the Supreme Court.

MATTHEWS: But then who you`re talking about?

MAK: If there were a case for impeachment and obstruction of justice –

MATTHEWS: Who does Trump fear?

LEMIRE: He still fears Bob Mueller. It depends where that investigation
stands. If there are parts still outliers standing that that would be a
factor here, I also think, look –

MATTHEWS: Would he say that pardoning which is a right of a president, a
perk of the president, is it self-obstructing? Would he do that?

LEMIRE: That`s a legal question. I don`t have the answer to you. But
it`s in play. And also, we keep waiting for Republicans on the Hill to
finally say there`s a red line we`ll cross. Maybe that could be it.

MATTHEWS: OK, this is hard stuff. I don`t think we know yet. I think
he`s willing to do anything when it comes to his family or protecting
himself from people like Michael Flynn or Manafort who do know stuff and
Michael Cohen.

The roundtable is sticking with us. And up next, they`re going to – well,
Trump`s fixer is in fix. Michael Cohen may not look like it – he looks
like the fall guy these days. But newly published audiotapes show how far
he would go to bully people like the guy sitting next to me.

You`re watching HARDBALL.


MATTHEWS: Well, whether President Trump will flex his pardon power for his
long time attorney and fixer Michael Cohen is an open question. But we got
an indication how far Michael Cohen would go to protect President Trump.
Yesterday, NPR published explosive audio recordings of Cohen threatening a
reporter with legal action.

Let`s watch or – listen.


REPORTER: Do you think that I`m misinterpreting some of the facts here?

friend, don`t be a smart ass with me. Do you understand me?

REPORTER: I`m not being a smart – I`m giving you an opportunity –

COHEN: I know you – I don`t need your opportunities, you little
(EXPLETIVE DELETED). I know exactly who you are and I know exactly what
you do and I know exactly the story you plan on writing. So, I`m warning
you, tread very (EXPLETIVE DELETED) lightly because what I`m going to do to
you is going to be (EXPLETIVE DELETED) disgusting. Do you understand me?

Don`t think you can hide behind your pen because it`s not going to happen.

REPORTER: Look, I`m –

COHEN: I`m more than happy to discuss it with your attorney and with your
legal counsel this mother (EXPLETIVE DELETED). You`re going to need it.


MATTHEWS: Well, people like Michael Cohen don`t have a large vocabulary.
So, you can probably fill in the words. But the reporter on that audio
tape is Tim Mak, our guest right now.

Tell me what it was like to hear that over the phone.

MAK: Look, this is – let`s set the stage here. This is 2015. President
Trump, then-candidate Trump just starts his presidential campaign. I`ve
never heard of Michael Cohen. None of us at the table have heard of
Michael Cohen.

And I reach out to the Trump campaign on a story and I ask him a question.
I get an angry call from Michael Cohen in return. I`ve never heard of this
guy before.

MATTHEWS: What put a bee in his bonnet about you? Why was he so hostile?

MAK: So, remember, Trump enters the campaign, he talks about Mexican
immigrants as criminals and drug dealers and he refers to some of them as
rapists. We`re doing some reporting and we dig up this 1993 biography of
him and in that book, Ivana Trump during his divorce proceedings with
Donald Trump says in a sworn deposition that Donald Trump raped her. And

MATTHEWS: And later she qualified that.

MAK: She later qualified. She didn`t mean in a criminal or literal sense
and she now supports the president.

But at the time we reached out to the Trump campaign and we said – I
reached out to Hope Hicks and said, hey, do you have a response to this?
And Michael Cohen who doesn`t work for the Trump campaign, works for the
organization calls me back and part of what you hear in that clip just now
was what he said.

MATTHEWS: Put together the two pictures, that guy. We`ve seen a lot of
these pictures. These sort of perp walk pictures back and forth from the

He looks sad. He looks disappointed in life. But yet, you have a tape
recording we just heard where he`s sort of a bad guy, a bully. Which one`s

That sort of sad looking guy and this bully that didn`t mind wasting you on
the phone?

MAK: The question is whether or not Michael Cohen that`s his nature or
that`s his job, right? Is it his job? Did Donald Trump create an
environment at the Trump Organization where that did not sound like the
first time he ever made a legal threat like that. There have been plenty -

MATTHEWS: That`s how you get to be a Trump fixer.

MAK: There have been plenty of contentious legal issues Michael Cohen has
had to deal with over the years. I mean, it`s all famous now that the
campaign is over.

MATTHEWS: So, you think Avenatti may have heard this kind of talk from

MAK: Well, Stormy Daniels, Avenatti on behalf of Stormy Daniels has said
that Michael Cohen threatened her as part of that NDA process. That`s what
we reported at NPR.

MATTHEWS: When we come back, by the way, these three will tell me
something I don`t know. I love – this is great stuff. It`s reporting but
eyewitness to history stuff, too.

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: We`re back with the round table. Tell me something I don`t


MAK: Super interested in the Koch Brothers funding a Democratic Senate
candidate –


MAK: – Heidi Heitkamp.

MATTHEWS: They are.

MAK: They also are putting some mailers in other words support of
Democrats who support their action on DACA. I found that really


GIBSON: An issue is getting attention in almost every one of the tough
House races is opioids. We have a story coming how it`s shaping some races
and going to play in some of the competitive districts.

MATTHEWS: Who is winning on that argument, Democrats or Republicans?

GIBSON: Democrats think they`re winning and think the ACA is the reason
that they can win on that issue.

LEMIRE: Attorney General Jeff Sessions is probably the most embattled
cabinet member. His job is safe for now. Rudy Giuliani told me yesterday
the president has no desire to fire him. It would be a distraction during
the Russia probe. But he said that after the probe, that could change.

MATTHEWS: OK, another threat. Tim Mak, Ginger Gibson, and Jonathan Lemire
– I love the way Rudy puts the threats in.

When we return let me finish tonight with what happened 50 years ago next
week. You`re watching HARDBALL.


MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with this: 50 years ago next week, a 21-
car train headed south from the New York to Washington. It carried the
body of Robert F. Kennedy, who`d been shot at the night he won the
California presidential primary. In a sad way, that train you`re looking
at and the people watching along the tracks marks the loss of a national
leader who held the potential because we never know what the future brings
to unite this country, especially its working people. There they are.

Here`s a clip from the MSNBC documentary I will host this Sunday night at
9:00 Eastern.


REP. JOHN LEWIS (D), GEORGIA, CIVIL RIGHTS ICON: I was invited to ride the
funeral train, just wanted to keep going. You saw people all along the way
holding their children, their little babies. And people crying. Some
people carrying flowers. It was little America on that train.

MAEVE MCKEAN, RFK`S GRANDDAUGHTER: When you see the imagery as his body
passes on the train, they`re wealthy and they`re poor and they`re black and
they`re white and they`re young and they`re old. I think it is amazing how
many different types of people that my grandfather touched.


MATTHEWS: “Headliners: Robert F. Kennedy” airs 9:00 p.m. Eastern, as I
said, right here on MSNBC.

It will make you sad but also remind what you this country could be. If
you haven`t yet, by the way, check out my book “Bobby Kennedy: A Ranging
Spirit.” I consider it a tonic for the Trump era.

That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES starts right now.



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