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Trump confidence in Rosenstein TRANSCRIPT: 2/2/2018, Hardball with Chris Matthews

Guests: Jim Himes, Betsy Woodruff, Chuck Rosenberg, Gregory Meeks, Yamiche Alcindor, Jonathan Swan, Ruth Marcus, Shawn Steel, Tim Weiner

Show: HARDBALL Date: February 2, 2018 Guest: Jim Himes, Betsy Woodruff, Chuck Rosenberg, Gregory Meeks, Yamiche Alcindor, Jonathan Swan, Ruth Marcus; Shawn Steel, Tim Weiner

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: Hit job. Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

To undermine and possibly subvert the administration of justice in this country, President Trump today declassified the much hyped memo that he believes will ultimately save him from the special counsel`s Russia probe. In doing so, the President ignored the warnings from the justice department which said its release is extremely reckless and the FBI which expressed grave concerns about his accuracy.

As we already know, the memo is said to be the product of a cherry picked intelligence drafted by staffers to Congressman Devin Nunes of the House intelligence committee. At the heart of it is the allegation that warrant was wrongfully obtained by the FBI and the justice department to surveil former Trump adviser Carter Page. There he is, under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act or FISA.

The authors of the memo claim that the dossier which was compiled by former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele quote "formed an essential part of the Carter Page FISA application that was used to obtain the warrant." They say the FBI and justice department should have told the federal judges who approved and renewed or reviewed that warrant and renewed it that the dossier was funded by the Clinton campaign and DNC originally.

Anyway, however, the memo does not mention other evidence that may have also been used to justify the warrant. And it never claims that the intelligence to the court was falsified or untrue. Instead it looks like a Trumped up smear of the law enforcement officials in the President`s hit list.

Former FBI director James Comey, he fired him, former deputy FBI director Andrew McCabe, he pushed him out. Former deputy attorney general Sally Yates, she got push out and most important the current deputy attorney general Rod Rosenstein who is in the President`s crosshairs and the President makes it clear.

With reports indicating the President could use this memo as a pretext to fire Rosenstein, the only person who has the authority over the special counsel`s probe, Democrats say it could spark a constitutional crisis. Drawing out the suspense this morning, this suspense, the President weighed in on the memo`s allegations from the oval office, most notable however, was what he said about the fate of Rod Rosenstein. Here he goes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think it`s terrible. You want to know the truth? I think it`s a disgrace what is going on in this country. I think it`s a disgrace. The memo was sent to Congress who was declassified. Congress will do whatever they are going to do. But I think it`s a disgrace what`s happening in our country. And wen you look at that and you see that and so many other things what`s going on, a lot of people should be ashamed of themselves and much worse than that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does it make you want to fire rod Rosenstein --

TRUMP: You figure that one out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, tonight, NBC News is also reported that ranking Democrat, the ranking Democrat on the House intel committee Adam Schiff of California said chairman Devin Nunes should step down. He said that tonight saying in the interest of the committee, we would be far better off with a different chair.

I`m joined now by Democratic congressman Jim Himes who sits on the House intelligence committee as well. Chuck Rosenburg, former senior FBI official and MSNBC contributor and Betsy Woodruff who is all over the story. She covers the Russia probe for "the Daily Beast."

Thank you. Let me going to Congressman Himes. Should Nunes step down and get out of the chairmanship altogether now just be recused technically? Shouldn`t he just get out of the way after this performance today?

REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: You know, that would certainly help rebuild the committee which for so long was nonpartisan, so long focused on our national security and which sadly because of the chairman`s antics now has become just a platform for the defense of this President and for the creation of pretext for the fire --, you know the possible firing of Rod Rosenstein.

So yes. You know, if we really want this committee to move forward in doing its terribly important work of oversight and getting over this fracture which has been caused by the chairman, I think it would be in the best interests for him to step aside for a different chairman.

MATTHEWS: Mr. Himes, you are a politician. You have a political nose. You know what`s going on around you, have instinct for it. Do you think that chairman Nunes works for the congress, works for his constituents at home or works for Trump? Who is he working for?

HIMES: Well, Chris, if I answer that question in my own voice, your audience will say that`s just a Democrat talking. Let`s look at what John McCain said about this whole madcap exercise. He says it serves no purpose other than Vladimir Putin`s. He said it`s time to move beyond these clearly partisan political things, something that can by the way was echoed today on NPR by former chairman of the House intelligence committee Mike Rogers who has deep reservations and problems with this.

So again, don`t take it from this Democrat. Take it from Republicans who are not on the team as the President so aptly put it to support his every whim.

MATTHEWS: Well, is he -- is Nunes and his staff, are they working for Trump?

HIMES: Nunes, since the day after the open hearing in which Jim Comey announced the existence of the FBI investigation into Russia hacks and possible collusion, the very next day we got the start of the midnight run to the White House where Devin Nunes got information from the White House. We then saw the unmasking baloney. You know, Susan Rice was unmasking improperly. Turns out to be baloney. This is chapter three.

The problem with chapter three is it`s not just about the Obama administration, it is not just about Susan Rice and Sam Powers. This is about the federal bureau of investigation and the department of justice. Storied American institutions that now have been to anybody has read this memo unfairly tarred with the thinnest of cases that whatever collapsed does not continue today will be done when the democratic memo is released hopefully next week.

MATTHEWS: Betsy, you have been all over this story as I said. I just think, you know, you do see patterns with this guy Nunes. It is all we seems like he is doing something that the White House - the Trumpsters down at the White House and EOB want done. He does it. He sort of launders it for them, then he takes back to them and said didn`t I do a good job. And then the President says good work. I support you. This is the third time he said this.

BETSY WOODRUFF, REPORTER, THE DAILY BEAST: It`s a it`s a curiously predictable pattern. One thing that I was told when I was speaking with a former justice department official yesterday and working on a story I put together about Nunes was that when he first became chairman of the intel committee back in 2014, there were concerns immediately. Because he was seen as someone who wasn`t much of a heavyweight when it came to intelligence matters. He himself even hinted at that on FOX News when he said that he didn`t read the intelligence that his memo is based on.

And what this person told me was that because there was this perception of Nunes, folks thought well he is probably going to be governed and driven by his staff. It is going to be a bottom up way that this committee gets led. And that`s not the way people want to see is the intel committee work.

MATTHEWS: I see his staff working for the White House.

Anyway. While some Republicans like Speaker Ryan pretend that the release of this memo is not related to the criminal investigation of the President, it`s abundantly clear that it is. It`s all about trying to discredit the Mueller investigation.

As "the Washington Post" reports, the President has already indicated he might use it, this memo, to fire the only man within authority over the Russia probe, deputy attorney general Rod Rosenstein.

Quote "Trump suggested to aides and confidants that the memo might give him the justification to fire Rosenstein, something about which Trump has privately mused or make other changes at the justice department which he complained was not sufficiently loyal to him. It didn`t have a Roy Cohn running it for him."

Despite that reporting, chairman Nunes today insisted his memo has nothing to do with the Mueller probe and said there has been no obstruction or collusion on behalf of the President.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DEVIN NUNES (R-CA), CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Well, I think what`s happening is I think the mainstream media and the Democrats are tying this to the Mueller investigation because they are trying to perpetuate this nonsense of obstruction of justice because they have left the Russia collusion issue. They know there was no collusion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Chuck, it seems to me that it walks like a duck, it`s a duck, old thing. It`s clearly that this memo with some hyped up for two weeks. I have never heard a memorandum gotten this kind of play with the idea this will be a dagger the President can stab Rosenstein with or anybody else he wants to knock out his investigation. Is this about -- is this about going after the Mueller probe?

CHUCK ROSENBERG, FORMER SENIOR FBI OFFICIAL: It seems to be, Chris. And legally this is a pile of nothing. There`s nothing in this memo that is of legal consequence. It looks like it was written by an underachieving first year law student. That said, right, politically, they can use it as they will. I`m in a political guy. I`m a legal guy. I can tell you that it has no legal consequences.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let`s go to the reality. I go back to Mr. Himes on this.

I will start with you, Mr. Himes. It seems to me that if there is a Russian involvement in our 2016 election which is pretty much manifestly true and was true last year, that there needed to be an investigation by our FBI because they go into a counter intelligence. They are trying to find anybody trying to do something like this. They are our only weapon, they go after people who try to subvert our country and go in to our security. And if they hadn`t gone after Carter Page who has been dancing around on television, he all over the place, almost cartoonishly bragging about his role in this Russian interplay between Trump and the Russians, they would have been not doing their duty.

Is that your view, Mr. Himes? You had to look what he was up to if you were looking into what Trump was up to and the Russians I should say are up to.

HIMES: Well, of course, Chris. But there is a fact that is even more important than that which is - and by the way, this is taken right out of the Nunes memo. The Nunes memo points out that the investigation into the Russian hack of our election was well under way months before the FISA application made against Mr. Page.

So this idea that because -- and by the way, I don`t think there is a thing to it, but this idea there was anything improper about the FISA application against Carter Page that that somehow sullies the investigation, the memo itself says that the investigation had been under way for months before the intent to listen in on Mr. Carter Page was even considered.

MATTHEWS: Yes, let me go to our expert here, Betsy. Because, I mean, it`s really -- I guess I worked in Washington for so long. I watched things at different levels. I don`t think everything that the big shots make all the decisions. I know staff people play big roles.

Who decided that the way to bring down the Russian probe to destroy Mueller, to destroy Rosenstein, everybody, was to go after the FISA application on Carter Page? Who decided that was the peg that they could break this thing on?

WOODRUFF: To be clear, I can`t speak to the motives of the folks.

(CROSSTALK)

WOODRUFF: What I can tell you is that one person who played a key role in this memo from the idea of putting it together looking at the intelligence, crafting the memo and then perhaps most importantly pushing for the memo to be dispersed broadly, is a staffer named Kash Patel. He has only been working for Nunes on the intel committee since maybe April.

MATTHEWS: Where does he come from?

WOODRUFF: Before that, he worked in the justice department at the national security division.

MATTHEWS: With the Trump people.

WOODRUFF: No, this is the Obama administration. He was a trial attorney there. At one point testifies famously dressed down by a federal judge. This judge called him useless from the bench. Since then he tried to get a role on the national security council after Trump was elected. That ended up not panning out. And within a few months he was working for Nunes on House intel.

MATTHEWS: And it looks like he was the first year law student and wrote this draft in your reporting.

WOODRUFF: Correct, that`s what I reported. "The New York Times" also hinted about it as well that Patel is sort the key mover as far as putting together the memo itself.

MATTHEWS: Well, let me go to this, in a tweet this morning, President Trump used this memo, the we keep talking about, to accuse law enforcement officials of bias.

Quote "the top leadership and investigators of the FBI and the justice department have politicized the sacred investigative process in favor of Democrats and against Republicans, something which would have been unthinkable a short time ago." Excuse me. Rank and file are great people.

Once the memo was released former FBI director James Comey offered his own reaction saying on twitter or twitter rather, that`s it? The dishonest and misleading memo wrecked the House intel committee, destroyed trust within the intelligence community, damaged the relationship with the FISA court and it unexclusively exposed classified investigation of an American citizen for what? DOJ and FBI must keep doing their jobs.

Let me get back to you, Chuck. Who are the people who do FISA applications?

ROSENBERG: I`m so glad you asked me that. They are the rank and file. The minute - the exact people that the President lauded and maybe he doesn`t understand who he is praising are the rank and file, the folks who assemble the information, vet the sources, corroborate them and compile this information into affidavits.

At some, of course, off the chain, your political appointees, the director, the attorney general, sign off. They certify it. But it`s the rank and file who are the heart and soul of these affidavits. In fact, it is the rank and file who take it to court and appear before the FISA judge. Again, signs, approves that warrant. It`s the rank and file, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Now the President is trying to say they are great people. At the same time I`m going to trash their work with regard to FISA.

Anyway. Late this afternoon, FBI director Christopher Wray, put there by the President, sent a video message to the bureau`s employees saying you have all been through a lot in the past nine months. And I know it`s often been unsettling to say the least. And the past few days haven`t done much to calm those waters.

Let me be clear. I stand fully committed to our mission, I stand by our shared determination to do the work independently and by the book. I stand with you. Talk is cheap. The work you do is what will endure.

You know, well, congressman, I want you to ended this conversation, because I think as a chairman, as a member of the intelligence committee, you understand the role the FBI plays in our lives. And that it is in fact our chief bulwark against anyone trying to hurt this country to subversion, whatever monkeying with our elections or whatever. How do you look at them?

HIMES: Well, I guess, you know, there is two tragedies here, Chris. One is that some small percentage of the country that will believe the allegations in this memo that will believe the larger narrative that is in no way supported by this memo that there is in fact bias at the highest levels of the FBI.

You know, a significant chunk of the American population will lose faith in an institution that is comprised of people who put their lives on the line every single day who could be making a lot more money at various law firms and this and that.

And the second tragedy is that these are good people who obviously are hearing the commander-in-chief, the President of the United States, berate and demean the mission that they do and the institution that they work for. And that is something that is going to take a significant amount of time for this republic to recover from. And that this President would do that and that Devin Nunes, the chairman of the intel committee, would be complicit in that effort is just profoundly disturbing.

MATTHEWS: And he is doing it to save his butt.

Thank you U.S. congressman Jim Himes. And thank you, Chuck Rosenberg. It is great have you on. And Betsy woodruff, a great reporter.

Coming up, what happened to the party of law and order? Remember them? Why are so many Republicans abandoning their principles to follow Trump into battle with the country`s top law enforcement officials. We are going to hear from two Republicans on either side of that fight.

Plus, if history is a guide, Presidents who subvert the truth and go to war with the FBI and the intelligence community of this country don`t win. Trump has started that war releasing a memo his own FBI director says it false. And tonight we are going to see why it`s a war he will lose.

And the "Hardball" roundtable tonight on Trump`s motives in all of this. Sounds like he wants to fire Rod Rosenstein as a way to put Robert Mueller`s whole investigation in jeopardy. And that should set off alarm bells everywhere. What is it about this investigation that Donald Trump is so damned scared of?

Finally, let me finish tonight with what`s happening this Sunday in Minnesota. You know where I stand.

This is "Hardball" where the action is.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Well, we are getting a clearer picture now as to why President Trump and his lackeys are desperate to undermine the justice department and special counsel Robert Mueller, of course.

According to "Politico," Mueller`s Russian investigation has gathered enough steam some lawyers representing key Donald Trump associates are considering the possibility of a historic first, an indictment against a sitting President.

"Politico" spoke with at least two attorneys representing clients who have been swept up in the Russia probe and both say they believe that Mueller could indict the President for obstruction of justice. That prediction is partially based on interactions with the special counsel`s team whose interviews have recently examined whether Trump tried to derail the probe into his campaign`s Russia ties.

Wow. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

Well, the Republican Party was once known, of course,as the party of law and order. And this week, we have watched many of its members line up to attack the country`s law and order institutions, the FBI and the Justice Department.

Here they go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARK MEADOWS (R), NORTH CAROLINA: To tell all of America tonight that I am shocked to read exactly what has taken place. I would think that it would never happen in a country that loves freedom and democracy like this country.

REP. JIM JORDAN (R), OHIO: What I read today in that classified briefing room is as bad as I thought it was.

REP. LEE ZELDIN (R), NEW YORK: It`s going to be showing misconduct on the part of top people at the DOJ and the FBI. You`re going to see a need for a change to certain practices up there.

REP. MATT GAETZ (R), FLORIDA: You are describing the very elements of a palace coup.

SEAN HANNITY, HOST, "HANNITY": If Hillary`s bought-and-paid-for dossier was the foundation to doing this, wow.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sean, this is bigger than anything anybody can imagine.

HANNITY: And when you say that, this makes Watergate like stealing a Snickers bar.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, one Republican congressman everyone Arizona, Paul Gosar, went so far as to accuse the FBI of treason and called on Jeff Sessions, the A.G., to criminally prosecute -- quote -- "these traitors."

Those were his words.

On the other side, former Chair of the House Intelligence Committee Mike Rogers, who questioned the motives behind the release of the Nunes memo today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE ROGERS (R), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Not exactly sure why they would pick this can route. There are other ways that you can make your point if you`re worried about this.

And, again, my point here is, if you`re really worried that there was some bad behavior, or, matter of fact, maybe even criminal behavior in the application of that FISA warrant, there are other ways to do it. And a -- at least by all appearances, a partisan investigation and release of selective information is not the way to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, Senator John McCain also delivered a harsh assessment of the memo today and those who support it.

He wrote: "Our nation`s elected officials, including the president, must stop looking at this investigation through the warped lens of politics and manufacturing partisan sideshows. If we continue to undermine our rule of law, we are doing Putin`s job for him."

For more, I`m joined by Charlie Sykes, author and MSNBC contributor, and Shawn Steel. He`s a Republican National Committeeman from California.

I want to start with Charlie on this.

I`m amazed. For years, we heard the buildup about Paul Ryan.

CHARLIE SYKES, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Yes.

MATTHEWS: He`s an Ayn Rand ideologue, a philosophical person. He believes in individual liberty. You know, he really has principles.

And yet he operates so much like a partisan character, defending Trump no matter what Trump does, and attacking all of Trump`s targets for him.

SYKES: Well, this is very disappointing, particularly given the distance that he had between himself and Trump back in 2016.

But this is a dramatic escalation here. And the only theory that I can come up with is that he enjoyed passing that tax cut bill so much that he wants to stay in Trump`s favor. On the other hand, also, he probably didn`t want to be in the crosshairs of his own members, kind of the crackpottery that you saw right there with that whole release the memo.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

SYKES: Had he basically been the voice of reason and said, no, we`re not going to be cherry-picking this, we`re not going to become willing accomplices to the obstruction of justice, he would have been the focus of all of this conservative media attack, and probably he figured, I just don`t need that.

But we have seen this congressional party go from resistance to enabling to acquiescence to really now going full Trump on this. And it is not inevitable. It`s a co-equal branch of government. This is a party that has been supportive of law enforcement.

And now they`re not only now complicity in trying to discredit this investigation, but they`re doing real damage, long-term institutional damage, to some of these crucial law enforcement and intelligence agencies. And that would have been unthinkable. As a Republican, it would have been unthinkable a few years ago.

MATTHEWS: Mr. Steel, some of the knowledge is shared. Most of us believe that the Russians tried to mess with our elections, that they wanted to try ruining the reputation of Hillary Clinton, if they couldn`t beat her. They didn`t think they could beat her, but they want to hurt her a little bit.

And with some of these characters, I don`t know what you think of them. When I watched -- I don`t think they`re serious people, but Carter Page out there is a bit goofy. And Paul Manafort doesn`t exactly seem on the level. And the Trump kids and the in-laws, all of them messing with the Russians. I have never seen so many Russian contacts in my life.

And even Sessions, who seems like a good old boy from the South, what`s he hanging around with Kislyak for? I have never seen -- I don`t think I have met more than two or three Russians in my life. And these guys are hanging around them.

It reminds me of -- what was his name, the old comedian who talked about O.J., in the blood, around the blood. In that case, why is there so much Russian contact? And wouldn`t you want to know what`s going on here?

Why don`t you want to support the effort of Mueller, who everybody respects, to get to the bottom of it? What`s wrong with him doing his job?

SHAWN STEEL, CALIFORNIA NATIONAL REPUBLICAN COMMITTEE MEMBER: You`re raising a lot of great questions.

I just don`t like the Russian bureaucracy. I`m still an old anti-Soviet. I don`t like Putin, never liked him. I never trusted him.

I think what you have here, I don`t understand why there is such -- there was such opposition to releasing a four-page memorandum. What were they worried about? What was the great concern? I`m in transparency. The Democrats are going to have a memo. I want it out today.

Why...

(CROSSTALK)

STEEL: I want the transcript. I want more information.

MATTHEWS: When is the last time you gave thought or word to the word memo?

This is the most concocted, built-up, ballyhooed, B.S. thing in the world. It does remind me, not that they`re Joe McCarthy, but McCarthy was a genius at this. He would say things, I have a document in my hand. I have a document. I have a -- it was this weird thing about a document.

There is no memo. A bunch of staff guys working for this guy knocked out a couple thing, probably one night over beers and pizza, knocked the thing out.

It`s become scripture. And then the president acts like...

STEEL: But you got to read it. That`s the whole point.

MATTHEWS: Well, we did read -- I read it today.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: What did you make of it?

STEEL: I`m hoping everybody reads it.

MATTHEWS: What did you learn?

STEEL: Here`s what I learned.

MATTHEWS: OK.

STEEL: I`m a slightly paranoid libertarian. I don`t trust big government. Big government attached to big technology is a fearsome thing. I never liked the Patriot Act. I know better now why I don`t like the Patriot act.

They can spy on anybody in this room in any neighborhood at any time on the filmiest of reasons.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: OK. Let me give you a flimsy reason. You`re advertising yourself as the Russian contact for all the oligarchs. You go to the Russian -- to the Trump campaign and say, I can get you in the door with all these people. Right?

Isn`t that guy worth watching what the Russians are doing with him? Isn`t he worth...

(CROSSTALK)

STEEL: But the underlying reason, using the Steele dossier, was incompetent and poor work.

SYKES: We don`t know that.

STEEL: If we can do that -- but we need to find out. Don`t cover it.

SYKES: OK, this is why this is such a bizarre charade that no one`s covering it up, unless, of course, you release the Democratic document.

STEEL: Yes. Yes, and the testimony.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: OK. Let me get to you, sir. Let me get to you, Mr. Steel, the other Steel.

What is about the Republican...

STEEL: I`m not related.

MATTHEWS: I know. I know. It`s unfair.

But did you ever watch those North Koreans goose-stepping in line with the same smile on their faces, everything is de rigueur?

STEEL: Yes.

MATTHEWS: Your Republican Party is so much like that.

STEEL: Not at all.

MATTHEWS: Your numbers are so totally with Trump. Nobody liked Trump when he ran. They all fought him, all the party people, all the Bushes and all the people, and Rubios. They were all -- you were -- everybody`s against him.

Now they march along. Whatever Trump wants, they go, yes, sir, yes, sir. What`s that about, the culture of your party?

STEEL: This really wasn`t even about Trump.

MATTHEWS: Why are you guys all for Trump?

(CROSSTALK)

STEEL: No, no, for me, this wasn`t -- I was for -- supporting six Republicans before I finally got to Trump. Let me tell you...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: You`re stuck with the guy.

STEEL: On the other hand, he`s had great action. Don`t like the rhetoric a whole lot, but I love the action, I love the tax cuts. Love the economy.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: What is it, Denny`s, the restaurant you don`t go -- is it Denny`s, the restaurant you go to, but you end up at, Denny`s?

That`s Trump. You guys ended up with Trump. You didn`t want him.

(CROSSTALK)

STEEL: The American people did. And they didn`t want Hillary. And that`s what the Democrats can`t get over.

MATTHEWS: OK.

Is he going to -- is your guy going to fire the top prosecutor?

STEEL: No.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: You don`t believe -- he`s not going to fire Rosenstein?

STEEL: Remember, there`s only seven people involved, not the FBI. You`re wrong. It`s not Justice Department.

MATTHEWS: Who is going to fire him?

STEEL: Rosenstein is going to have to make up his own mind.

But there`s only seven people involved in this whole problem. And they`re the ones. All of them have been -- have fired themselves.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: OK, Charlie, your words. What do you afraid is going to happen?

SYKES: Well, I think, look, that the whole charade, the whole point of this memo was to discredit this investigation, to obstruct this investigation, to create a predicate for possibly neutering this investigation by getting rid of Rod Rosenstein. Everyone knows all of that.

All of the stuff about transparency, this is so much eyewash. And, of course, there`s all this misinformation, because you don`t get a FISA warrant with just a four-page memo. You have 50, 60 pages. These are FISA judges, who are mostly Republican. They have gone through it.

You think about all the folks in the Department of Justice who have done this. The point of this was to throw up lots of dust and smoke. And perhaps it has succeeded.

But I guess the real question is, OK, I get that Republicans go along with the conservative policies, but why do they feel that they have to become accomplices on the Russia investigation, particularly when we know the Russians are attacking our democracy? And that`s the part I can`t get past.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Shawn, one last word to you. Why did Trump bring aboard a campaign a guy who has been watched by the FBI, who has been suspected a long time, for years, of involvement with the Russian oligarchs and those people, who they thought was being working possibly or being used by the Russians?

Why would Trump bring like that -- as flaky as this guy, Carter Page -- look at the guy. He`s flaky. Why did he bring him into his campaign?

STEEL: Every presidential campaign has hangers-on, people that give themselves titles, that show up at a meeting and say they`re an integral part. And they`re not.

Everybody at this table knows that Carter Page was a nothing then. He`s a nothing now. And using that as an excuse...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: He named him as one of his top people. And now you`re hanging your whole presidency on this guy.

Look at him. Look at this performance here. I`m sorry.

(CROSSTALK)

STEEL: Why in the world do we want to have spying on a presidential opponent?

Here`s my worry about you. In 2020, Trump`s going to have a different Department of Justice, inevitably, a different FBI inevitably. And there`s going to be a hot presidential campaign.

Which Democrat is going to be is surveilled by the FBI at that time? I would oppose it then. I hope you would. Why are you not opposing it now?

MATTHEWS: Because it wasn`t a candidate who was surveilled. It was a guy who is a Russian operative over there.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Who lived in Russia for three years, who operated as the guy to go see in Russia.

STEEL: Fair enough.

SYKES: It would have been dereliction of duty had they not pursued this, if they did not investigate what was going on.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: That`s what I say.

STEEL: So, you`re giving the Trump administration permission to spy on Democrats.

(CROSSTALK)

STEEL: I oppose it. I oppose it.

MATTHEWS: Shawn, they`re spying on Russians.

STEEL: Well, let`s hope that they`re not spying on more Americans.

MATTHEWS: They`re Russians. They`re spying on Russians. And thank God they are.

Thanks, Charlie. He`s good man, Shawn Steel, the Republican National Committeeman from California.

Up next -- not doing too well out there, by the way, your party.

Up next: President Trump today made it official. He`s going to war with the FBI. But if history is any indication, he will come out, don`t you think on the losing end? You don`t mess with the FBI.

As President Nixon learned, you can`t fire it your way out of a criminal investigation. Well, he tried. This is the slow-motion, speeding-up, Saturday Night Massacre.

And this is HARDBALL, where the action is.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

With the release of today`s memo, FBI Director Christopher Wray now stands at odds with the president who appointed him. Trump is now claiming that the leadership in the FBI and the DOJ, Department of Justice, are biased against him. He said that today.

Well, in an op-ed piece in "The New York Times," Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter Tim Weiner calls that memo "a cudgel created to attack everyone who has been in charge of the federal investigation of team Trump."

He says that the president "may try to fire them all, but he won`t win the war. Despite the degradations and depredations that this president has inflicted on the executive branch, there remains a phalanx of honorable people at the Justice Department and the FBI more beholden to principle than politics, prepared to fall on their swords, rather than suborn high crimes."

I`m joined right now by the author, Tim Weiner, who wrote that "The New York Times" piece. He`s also the author of "Enemies: A History Of The FBI." Also with us, New York Democratic U.S. Congressman Gregory Meeks.

Gentlemen, thank you.

I want to start with -- I usually start with the elected official, but I got to start with the author of this.

What is it about the FBI and its culture, the way people make men and women devote their 30- or 40-year career to it, with a limited income, not a terrible income, but limited, and say, this is what I`m going to do with my life? What is that?

TIM WEINER, AUTHOR, "ENEMIES: A HISTORY OF THE FBI": They`re sworn top defend the rule of law and the Constitution. They are devoted to law, and they are not devoted to loyalty to any elected politician.

They`re going to follow the evidence in this case until the end of time or until the end of Trump.

MATTHEWS: Wow.

Congressman, what do you make about this fight? I know, if you`re a progressive Democrat, you might have a different view of J. Edgar Hoover`s rule through all those years. And it may be mixed.

But what`s your view of the FBI in this contretemps with the president?

REP. GREGORY MEEKS (D), NEW YORK: Well, you can just follow the facts.

You know, President Trump from the very beginning, when he started with Comey, he thought that he was going to be on his side. When he saw that he was not, he fired him. He then thought that his secretary -- his attorney general would be on his side. His attorney general decided to make sure that he stepped down.

So then there was an appointment that the president put in of Mr. Rosenstein. And he thought that he would be on his side with loyalty, but again, as indicated, these individuals started following their duty and responsibility.

So Mr. Rosenstein then hired Mr. Mueller, who is continuing this investigation. Now, this is not -- this is the Trump Justice Department and Trump head of the FBI. But they too have stayed fast with what their responsibilities are. And they will follow this to the end.

And sometimes, as was Nixon, the cover-up is -- can be worse than the crime. And no one is talking about the threat to our democracy that the Russians put in with an election, and another election is coming up in 2018.

So, it just seems clear from the facts that this president is nervous about this investigation. And, unfortunately, unlike the Nixon era, my colleagues who are on the Republican side are trying to help this president cover up this investigation.

My head is baffled why in the world they would do that.

MATTHEWS: Tim, I watched the Mark Felt movie. And one thing I really learned from -- it wasn`t one of the great movies in history, but one thing I liked about it was the institutional integrity of the FBI.

And when John Dean shows up with the acting head of the FBI, the organization, Mark Felt, and all the true believers said, what the hell are you doing here? That sense of tissue rejection. Don`t mess with this purpose of our mission.

Tell me about that today and how that affects Christopher Wray, who has just been picked by Trump. Now, he, from the day he`s elected -- selected, he has to basically take on the person who appoints him.

WEINER: Chris, the FBI is the only institution in this country that it can investigate the president of the United States.

Trump got up in the dead of night today, and at 3:33 in the morning fired off a tweet that was a direct attack on the FBI and on the Justice Department. He can use this memo as a weapon to try and decapitate the FBI and the DOJ, to get rid of Chris Wray at the FBI, to get rid of Rosenstein as a way of trying to put in a stooge in Rosenstein`s place who could fire Robert Mueller.

He can try that. But he will fail in the end. And he will create a constitutional crisis unlike any we have seen since the Saturday day-night massacre.

The Saturday Night Massacre could recur tomorrow if Trump takes us one more tweet toward a constitutional crisis.

MATTHEWS: Congressman Meeks, look at the pattern of what I call the slow- motion Saturday Night Massacre.

He gets rid of Comey, as you say. He got rid of McCabe. He got rid of Yates. I mean, he`s just going down the list. And now, how he`s going after this guy Rosenstein who is a apparently a lifelong Republican because he`s in his way. And we all know -- I think he is -- he`s heading for Mueller. He`s just firing anybody that dares to challenge him in terms of enforcing the law.

MEEKS: Which is why my colleagues on the Republican side of the aisle from the leadership on down and Mr. Nunes, the track they`re going down is baffling. They have a responsibility. Our first responsibilities as a separate branch of government is to make sure that we protect and preserve our institutions.

And for them to become co-conspirators with this president to begin or to try to discredit and turn and tear down this institution where we`ve been following, you know, what the hypocritical aspect of my colleagues is we just had a vote on the FISA reauthorization not too long ago. They are saying all of these things now.

When vote took place, they voted to reauthorize it --

MATTHEWS: Sure.

MEEKS: -- without further restrictions. They were fine then, but now, they`re saying something else. Clearly, to me, it`s to obstruct this investigation.

MATTHEWS: Thank you so much. It`s great having you on.

U.S. Congressman Gregory Meeks of New York state and Tim Weiner, thank you for the great piece in the "New York Times" today and for your writing.

Up next, some White House officials fear that the Nunes memo is a complete dud. Will that prevent the president from doing what he ultimately wants to do, which is to fire Rosenstein and thereby cripple, he hopes, the Mueller investigation?

You`re watching HARDBALL.

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MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

President Trump`s slow motion Saturday Night Massacre continues to take shape with the release of that House Republican memo. The White House claims the decision was about transparency.

In a statement, Press Secretary Sarah Sanders said the memo raises serious concerns, adding the decision to classify was made with input from the president`s national security team. Of course, it was.

But "The Daily Beast" reports Trump was also taking his policy advice from a lesser former, a less formal adviser, Fox News host Sean Hannity`s part of this. He`s in the loop. It says Hannity`s persistent advocacy reinforced Trump`s already growing determination to get that memo into the public realm.

The report adds the two the discussed the memo`s supposedly bombshell level significance and how it could shed light on the alleged anti-Trump bias and corruption at the FBI. Let`s bring in the HARDBALL roundtable. Yamiche Alcindor, of course, White House correspondent for the "PBS NewsHour", Jonathan Swan, national political reporter for "Axios", and Ruth Marcus, deputy editorial editor for "The Washington Post" and much more than that. I know.

Let me -- let me talk -- you know, there was a television show on for nine years called -- about firing people. He ended up firing people. Now, it`s reality TV again.

Here`s the president of the United States in his slow motion I can fire Comey, I can fire McCabe, I can fire Yates, Sally Yates. I can fire Rosenstein. And he does it relentlessly with the same sort of grinding power. And now, he has a pretext to do it again and fire Rosenstein in the next few days for all we know.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, PBS NEWSHOUR: Out of watching that or reading the memo, the thing that stuck out to me, what`s the big news here? When you start looking at the one paragraph that lists Sally Yates, James Comey, you start realizing one of these names is not like the other, because only one of them is still employed. So, you can see that even though there`s all to do about all the memo, really, it`s about that one paragraph.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: It`s an indictment. Did you notice they weren`t redacted? He didn`t want the names redacted, Jonathan? He wanted the names in there.

JONATHAN SWAN, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, AXIOS: He did. There were people who wanted the names redacted obviously. But with regards to Rosenstein, I would actually be surprised at least in the short term if he didn`t make that move. I suspect if he did, his entire legal team would quit.

MATTHEWS: Ruth, could he be aiming at a more sophisticated target if he can blemish the credibility of Rosenstein, Mueller, the FBI, the Justice Department, then his people that 30-plus percent of the country will say I don`t believe any of this.

RUTH MARCUS, DEPUTY EDITOR, THE WASHINGTON POST: I think that`s exactly the goal. I think I leave it to Jonathan to tell us whether or not Rod Rosenstein can sleep soundly tonight or tomorrow night. I don`t thinking if anybody gets massacred, it`s going to be on a Saturday. That`d be --

MATTHEWS: That`s right. That`s one day, never on a Saturday.

MARCUS: Yes, I think the president would want his own day for a massacre. He`d want a Sunday night massacre. But I do think clearly the goal here is to do something that I think it`s extraordinary for us to watch, a sitting president of the United States do, which is to smear the law enforcement machinery of the United States and instruct his followers that it is not to be trusted or believed. That`s the goal.

MATTHEWS: So these rank-and-file people in the FBI that the president paid tribute to and Sessions does all the time as you should, they`ve served the country, to say that they are doing their job and then to say but there shouldn`t have been any surveillance of this guy Carter Page who is dealing back and forth with the Russians. How can he have it both ways?

SWAN: Well, previous guest Chuck Rosenberg laid this out. It`s the rank- and-file that helped compile this information that goes into --

MATTHEWS: This thick. You have to do something like this to get a wiretap.

SWAN: You can`t have it both ways. You can`t hermetically seal, you know, two or three people that you describe as Obama holdovers in the political leadership of the FBI and say that the vast mass of people who obviously do the grunt work are blameless, perfect, wonderful. You just can`t do it. I know that`s what Sean Hannity`s been doing and what the president has been doing.

MATTHEWS: Tell me about that move. You`re in the media, but you`re not that kind of media, Fox News primetime, good for you. What is the deal where does he coach the president? Does he encourage him? What`s the story here? Do you know?

He`s a commentator. He`s a good one. He knows what he`s doing. He has a big following on the right and he encourages the president to release a memo that destroys the reputation of the FBI? He does that?

ALCINDOR: Well, I think in some ways it`s also -- I think he`s also confirming what the president wants to do. The president said he wanted to release this memo right after that long speech that he gave called the State of the Union on Tuesday.

This idea is that Sean -- we watch Sean Hannity to reinforce what he wants to do already. I think Hannity is not someone who`s influencing the president to say, OK, you`re going to be doing this because I told you to do this. I think the president is calling Sean Hannity to say, OK, can I do this and Sean Hannity is saying, yes, that`s a great idea. By the way, I`ll put it on my show.

MATTHEWS: He makes a point of saying, Sean, to his credit and I don`t make enemies all around this business, too many enemies anyway, he says I`m not a journalist. He`s quite open about it. He says, look, I`m what I am, I`m an advocate.

MARCUS: And he`s an advocate and there`s just this toxic feedback loop, not just with Sean Hannity but between Fox News as a whole and the president, they rile him up. And then he acts and they rile up some more and it just keeps going.

MATTHEWS: What does he do in the morning? I need some reporting here, just a minute. He gets up at 3:40 as somebody pointed out to tweet against -- for this memo attacking this -- supporting this memo.

What does he do until "Fox & Friends" come on? He must die. He`s got two hours to go. Does he eat pancakes for two hours? What do you?

ALCINDOR: I get the daily guidance all the time from the president. And the intelligence briefing is at 11:00 a.m. We know he`s up at 6:00 a.m. for five hours straight, he`s watching TV every morning.

MATTHEWS: Between 4:00 and 6:00 in the morning. Anyway, the rountable is sticking with us to answer that question.

You`re watching HARDBALL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: The HARDBALL roundtable is sticking up, they`re going to stick with me and they`ll be up in a moment with three things I don`t know anything about. Brand-new stuff for the weekend.

You`re watching HARDBALL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: We`re back with the roundtable.

Yamiche is first to tell me something I don`t know.

ALCINDOR: I talked to a member of the House Intel Committee, today, a Democrat. They`re very worried even if they can release their memo, that they`re going to lose the messaging war because the waters are so muddied right now that people just think this is completely a conspiracy. Democrats aren`t excited about releasing their memo.

MATTHEWS: Get up for this fight. Go ahead, Jonathan Swan.

SWAN: Thank you, Chris.

There shall be more memos. I had been told there were more coming and then Devin Nunes confirmed that tonight in an interview. He said there`s one more coming out. I`m told there`s more than one in the pipeline.

MATTHEWS: Who is going to write them?

SWAN: The same people.

MATTHEWS: The same guy?

SWAN: It`s bringing the band back together.

MATTHEWS: The same guy.

Anyway, your thoughts?

MARCUS: You`ve kind of mentioned this before. It`s really important for people to know though that these FISA warrant applications, it`s not like you scrawl a grocery list on the back after envelope. They`re thick documents that have a lot of facts in them that go through a lot of people, rank-and-file, and then the most senior officials of the FBI and the Justice Department. To cherry pick this the way --

MATTHEWS: Do you think this is much ado about nothing, this whole memo thing?

MARCUS: I do.

MATTHEWS: Thank you. Do you believe the Shakespeare --

ALCINDOR: The Democrats think that, too.

(CROSSTALK)

MARCUS: Very erudite.

MATTHEWS: I always liked all the Aussies I ever met. I`m not going to change my line just because the (INAUDIBLE)

Yamiche Alcindor, Jonathan Swan, and Ruth Marcus.

When we return, let me finish tonight with what`s happening Saturday night in Minnesota. You`re watching HARDBALL.

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MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with what`s happening Sunday night, this coming Sunday night in Minnesota.

To some, it`s the biggest sports event of the year. To more intense group of Americans, it`s the chance of a perennial underdog to show the world what it`s made of. I`m talking about the team that wasn`t supposed to make it, that after years of missing the chance then getting the chance with a great quarterback was told it lost its chance again, and then against all odds, they beat two teams they weren`t supposed to.

And now, the Eagles of Philadelphia are heading to the Super Bowl they weren`t supposed to get anywhere near. And not only that, they the perennial underdogs are going to have a lot of the country rooting like hell for them because they are underdogs admitted and everybody admits it.

Fly, Eagles, fly. Why? Because every good patriotic American roots for the underdog.

And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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