IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

Trump calls NYT report "fake news" Transcript 1/26/18 Hardball with Chris Matthews

Guests: Jonathan Swan, George Will, Pete Buttigieg, Sabrina Siddiqui

Show: HARDBALL Date: January 26, 2018 Guest: Jonathan Swan, George Will, Pete Buttigieg, Sabrina Siddiqui

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: You`re fired! Let`s play "Hardball."

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

When in doubt, Donald Trump does what he does best.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You`re fired.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: NBC News has confirmed the bombshell "New York Times" reporting that President Trump ordered the firing last June of Robert S. Mueller, but ultimately backed down after the White House counsel threatened to resign rather than carry out the directive.

Well, according to "The New York Times," quote "Mr. Mueller learned about the episode in recent months as his investigators interviewed current and former senior White House officials in his inquiry into whether the President obstructed justice.

Before heading home from Davos this morning, President Trump disputed the report.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, why did you fire Robert Mueller? Why would you want to fire Robert Mueller?

TRUMP: Fake news, folks. Fake news. Typical "New York Times" fake story.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, for the record, the report has been confirmed by NBC News, "the Washington Post," CNN, "the Wall Street Journal," even FOX News. And it does raise troubling questions. Is it obstruction or at least part of a pattern of obstruction to do what he did? And where are Republicans? Hasn`t the President crossed a line here?

Well, it is (INAUDIBLE). Will Trump try to do it again? If he was willing to fire Mueller before, why not now when it appears the investigation, Mueller is sniffing closer and closer to Trump himself. And then there`s the question of honesty. Have we forgotten that one? If the reporting by multiple news organizations now is true, then President Trump wasn`t telling the truth, was he, when he said this last August?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President you thought about or considered leading to the dismissal of the special counsel. Is there anything Bob Mueller could do that would send you in that direction?

TRUMP: I haven`t given at any thought. I have been reading about it from you people. You say, I`m going to dismiss him. No, I`m not dismissing anybody. I mean, I want them to get on with the task.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, Michael Schmidt is the one who broke that story last night for the Times. He is "the New York Times" reporter and MSNBC national security contributor. Paul Butler is a former federal prosecutor and MSNBC analyst Jennifer Rubin, of course, an opinion writer for "the Washington Post," also a political analyst.

Michael, give us a sense of the tick-tock when Trump fired and did he effectively by his lights fire Mueller who might be prosecuting him.

MICHAEL SCHMIDT, REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: It` is June, a month after Mueller`s appointed, a month after Comey was fired. And that had blown up in their faces. He goes to McGahn and he says look, I think that Mueller has these conflict of interest issues including the fact that he was a member at one of my golf clubs and had a membership dispute. And you can call the U.S. firm and you get rid of them. And this was very concerning, obviously, to McGahn who did not want to do through on this. He was going to put his job on the line to try and stop it.

MATTHEWS: You know, those of us who read about Richard Nixon read it many times or ever he would make orders like go blow up the Brookings Institution or go break in to the Republican headquarters and make it look like a Democrat job. I mean, he would say Democrat, now democratic too.

Is this one of those cases where the President actually gave an order, wanted it carried out, wanted Mueller gone and somewhere along the line in the next couple hours McGahn got the word back to him no. How did that work?

SCHMIDT: I think it may have played out over several days as the President pestered him over several days to try and get him to do this. And McGahn made it clear to Priebus and to Bannon that he was not willing - that he was willing to resign over this and the President ultimately backed down off of this.

There`s a long-standing thought amongst folks at the White House that if you can distract the President for a certain amount of time, he will find something to fixate his attention on.

MATTHEWS: Do you think - as your reporting, given this new reporting that Trump ordered Mueller`s firing last June, let`s look at the events leading up to it.

January 27th at a private dinner at the White House, President Trump tells James Comey I need loyalty, I expect loyalty. That`s according to Comey.

February 14th also according to Comey, President Trump tells the FBI director I hope you can see or way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go.

March 22nd, Trump asked CIA director Mike Pompeo and director of national intelligence Dan Coats to intervene with Comey to get them to drop the Flynn probe all together. That was first reported by "the Washington Post."

Also that March, last March, according to "The New York Times," Donald Trump quote "erupted in anger when Jeff Sessions recused himself from the Russian investigation. He tells numerous White House officials he needs his attorney general to protect him."

Then on May 9th, Trump fires Comey. The next day he tells Lester Holt, the decision had to do with the Russian investigation.

There we go -- Jennifer?

JENNIFER RUBIN, OPINION WRITER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Yes. He has tried over and over again to decapitate this investigation. What he doesn`t realize, of course, is you could fire all these people and the investigation would still go on. That`s a misnomer in his own mind. But he clearly has tried again and again to interfere, to obstruct and what you are seeing is a pattern.

No one of these is perhaps sufficient for a prosecutor or even the American public. But when you see a persistent pattern time and time again and in the same vein. Remember, he tried to kind of feel out McCabe, as well, Andrew McCabe, yelled at him that his wife had been receiving campaign donations.

MATTHEWS: Yelled at him.

RUBIN: Right. Peeved with him. You know, then he wants him fired. Christopher Wray won`t do it. He wants lots of people fired. And it is just quite for who is going to do it. Remember, he didn`t have the nerve to fire Comey face-to-face. He sent his body man to do it and give him the note.

MATTHEWS: Well let me get this straight because Paul, there`s such a Watergate echo here. Nixon fired Archibald Koch, then he got Leon Jaworski. So he thought Cox was his worst enemy. Admittedly, Cox may have had - he certainly had a political background which was Democrat, but clearly Trump seems to think, I want check back with Michael on this, he seems to think his worst enemy is Bob Mueller.

PAUL BUTLER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Trump`s worst enemy is Donald Trump. So Michael`s reporting has teed up, excuse me, a question that Mueller will ask Trump that could lead to Trump`s removal from office.

The question is, Robert Mueller to Trump, did you try to get me fired. If Trump answers no, that`s perjury. He is going down. If he answers yes, that`s obstruction or at least strong corroboration of his criminal intent to impede the investigation.

MATTHEWS: Michael, let`s talk about the reporting here because I love the background. Does Trump, Donald Trump the man, fear Bob Mueller the man?

SCHMIDT: I think that he recognizes that Mueller is an existential threat to his presidency. And that not only is this something about Russian collusion and questions of ties between his campaign and Russia, but it is also something that is focused squarely on his time in office. The interactions with McGahn, the efforts to influence Sessions, why he fired Comey. He is incredibly frustrated with the Russia question but he also realizes there`s all of these matters about his time in office that are being examined.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let`s talk more about Trump the way he looks at life. And people always project. Now, here`s Donald Trump who has talks about Mexican judges being out to get him because it has something to do with Mexico potentially. And then he thinks McCabe is it out get him because his wife was a Democrat and got help from McAuliffe organization down in Richmond. So he is always assuming somebody is up to something for their own interests, always. What does he think Bob Mueller`s interest is? Why would think, let me just suggest the possible motive here, he may think that Bob Mueller looks the FBI? He believes in the FBI as an institution like the Peace Corps or the marines or something, the Catholic Church or something he really believes in as a starling reality that needs to be protected.

And here is a President fired Comey, who fired the head of the FBI because he is actually doing his job and he says damn it, I`m stepping in here. Is that what he sees in Mueller?

SCHMIDT: I think that he thinks that Mueller and Comey are very good friends and that Mueller is here to avenge what happened to Comey.

MATTHEWS: So it`s Shakespearean.

SCHMIDT: They worked together, they know each other, they like each but they are not best friends. They are not as close as the President --

MATTHEWS: So this isn`t a vendetta.

SCHMIDT: No. And I don`t think anybody would think Bob Mueller would lead an investigation to help one of his friends who got fired.

MATTHEWS: How do you see it?

BUTLER: To be fair, no one would want one of the country`s best prosecutors, Robert Mueller and 16 of his ace prosecutor friends and the world`s best law enforcement agency, the FBI, looking at everything that you have ever done.

MATTHEWS: So is sane on the part of Trump this time?

RUBIN: Well, it is sane, yes.

MATTHEWS: It is sanity. It is not paranoia. They are coming to get the truth and the truth is not going to set Trump free.

BUTLER: Trump should be more worried about obstruction. I think he just doesn`t understand the law. He is clearly worried about money laundering and his financial transactions. So that`s a red line that I think a line in the sand that Mueller crosses that, then I think all bets are off.

MATTHEWS: Jennifer?

RUBIN: Yes. That`s exactly where I was going. He went through this experience in March with Comey where he blew the world up. And people were screaming that this was potentially obstruction. He learned nothing from that obviously or he didn`t believe it or he doesn`t think this is a crime or no one told him he couldn`t do this.

And remember the way he keeps kind of dropping these phrases into his various speeches. I can do anything I want with the justice department. I choose not to. I can do anything I want. He thinks that these people personally work for him. He sees them as loyal to him as the person. And so, when they behave this way, off with their heads.

MATTHEWS: This wasn`t election, it was an acquisition.

Anyway, according to "The New York Times" reporting, President Trump argued Mueller had three conflicts of interest. Well, one a dispute years ago over fees at Trump national golf club that prompted Mr. Mueller to resign his membership. Two, Mueller had most recently worked for the law firm that previously represented the President`s son-in-law Jared Kushner. Three, Mueller had been interviewed to return as FBI director the day before he was appointed special counsel.

I mean, these are like what? These don`t seem important. I mean, why did the President, he is the President, think he had to come up with these please crumbs of excuse? Why didn`t he just say, I don`t like the guy`s looks and just say I want to get rid of him?

SCHMIDT: Well, I think he realizes certainly after the Comey firing that he needs to have a good rationalization.

MATTHEWS: But this is a joke.

SCHMIDT: This doesn`t get you there. And I don`t think any legal expert will tell you that`s strong enough to get someone disqualify rom running an investigation. I think he was grasping for anything at the time and those are the best things he could come up.

MATTHEWS: Well, Trump started a fire. Mueller happened in July - June last year. Why is this coming out now?

Well Bill Kristol, a conspiracy kind of guy himself, he wrote who obviously leaked this? Probably White House council Don McGahn himself, perhaps with Trump`s lawyer, Ty Cobb. Why now? It`s perfect. Its effect will presumably be a negative reaction to firing Mueller which may well mean Trump recently returned to the idea. And this is a desperate effort by McGahn to stop McGahn.

So this is -- according to this, and I don`t know how it squares with your trade craft, but somehow the people on the inside said they put this out somehow to you guys at the times and ultimately and everybody who reconstructed the story, they did it so they could prevent Trump from doing what he tried to do before again. What is that sound like to you?

SCHMIDT: That makes it sound like our jobs are a lot easier than they are.

MATTHEWS: (INAUDIBLE)

SCHMIDT: We are just sitting there in at phone rings and they give it to us and then we go.

MATTHEWS: You`re the bird feeder.

SCHMIDT: Yes. No, it`s much more difficult than that.

MATTHEWS: That doesn`t square with your reporting.

BUTLER: Well, my conspiracy theory is that it`s a trial balloon to see what if at this point Trump does fire Mueller --?

MATTHEWS: By who? Who put up the balloon?

BUTLER: The Republicans had not had the outrage on my man`s report that I would have liked.

MATTHEWS: Wait a minute. Who do you think -- who is trying this balloon from your theory?

BUTLER: Well, Trump or some of his people who want do see. I don`t know.

MATTHEWS: I think straight reporting and straight Oh Kim`s razor (ph) here. What do you think happened? I think Trump tried to fire Mueller. That`s what I think.

RUBIN: My only other suggestion is that McGahn wants to say I`m innocent. I didn`t obstruct justice. I tried to do the right thing.

MATTHEWS: Just a little comic relief, let`s go to FOX News. And I don`t like media criticism. I mean, it is always leveled at all. So here we go.

But last night when the news broke, your paper held it to about 9:30 to get the facts final straight. Trump`s most loyal defendant Sean Hannity not a bad guy sometimes but lately I don`t know, seemed to be over taken by events as he tried to respond live over the course confident hour as the reality sunk in. He couldn`t take the truth. Let`s watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Now, tonight, for example, they are trying to change the story. At this hour, "The New York Times" is trying to distract you. Our sources and I have checked in with many of them, they are not confirming that tonight. And the President`s attorney dismissed the story and says no, no comment, we are not going there. And how many times has "The New York Times" and others gotten it wrong?

All right. So we have sources tonight just confirming to Ed Henry that yes, maybe Donald Trump wanted to fire the special counsel for conflict. Does he not have the right to raise those questions? You know, we will deal with this tomorrow night.

We have a shocking video of the day to bring you by the way. This footage comes to us from Arizona where you see the red SUV, high speed police chase?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: I`m sorry. I`m sorry. What a diversion tactic. That`s what we they have been doing all through the saga whenever the story gets hot and close to this President`s heart, they drag us into some other crazy -- by the way, couldn`t even come up with a white bronco chase, and a red bronco.

RUBIN: You know, there`s a legal expression, (INAUDIBLE). The thing speaks for itself. I have nothing to add to that performance.

MATTHEWS: What do you make of FOX taking on your truth?

SCHMIDT: I`m going to decline to comment.

MATTHEWS: OK. Well, I think it`s one of those big stories. I do think there is simplicity in life. It`s always simple in the end politics. It is not -- it`s called self-interest. Trump wants to save himself. He didn`t understand the law probably. He thought probably the Logan Act was more effective than it has been over the years. He may have thought it was actually going to be enforced against him and all of a sudden he got scared and all of the sudden the obstruction started.

Anyway, thank you, Michael Schmidt. You are unbelievable. You are Bob Woodward and Bernstein, the combined. Paul Butler and Jennifer Ruben, thank you for joining us.

Coming up, we are going to take a closer look back at last June and what was going on when Trump learned that firing and ordered the firing of special counsel Robert Mueller. Sorry, Sean. That`s ahead.

Plus Trump`s scarecrow in the field. Congressman Devin Nunes, that`s what I`m calling him, a scarecrow, is supposed to be leading the investigation into the Russian meddling right, instead trying to chase attention away from Trump`s Russia connections. That`s what they always does.

And Jeb Bush is sounding the alarm about 2018. He says Trump`s character will drag the Republicans down in the midterm elections this November.

And with the news that Trump ordered the firing of the special counsel last June, the party`s chances aren`t likely to improve. I don`t think so.

Finally, let me finish tonight with the Democrats` attempt to recapture their gloried past by picking Bobby Kennedy`s grandson to give the democratic state of the union. Three cheers for that.

This is "Hardball" where the action is.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Well, one big question is the Russia investigation moves closer to the President is what will Republicans do if special counsel Mueller refers impeachable offenses to the department of justice and the Congress.

In an interview on CNBC, President Trump talked about unity among Republicans. Let`s listen to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Paul Ryan called meet other day. He said I have to tell you, Mr. President. I have been here for a long time and I have been part of the Republican Party. And I have been watching it for a long time. For many decades I have never seen the Republican Party unified like it is under your presidency. And that was Paul Ryan. And I thought that was a very nice statement. Very nice statement. And I think Mitch McConnell actually feels the same way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Wow. We`ll be right back with a deeper look at what was happening last June when Trump ordered the White House counsel to fire Robert Mueller.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to "Hardball."

President Trump`s order to fire special counsel Robert Mueller last June which was not ultimately carried out coincided with the first reports that the Mueller probe was looking into whether the President had obstructed justice. So they are connected. This all began when Trump abruptly fired former FBI director James Comey on May 9th of last year, that`s May of last year when he fired Comey. A move that led to the appointment of Robert Mueller on May 17th. So all that happened in May.

It wasn`t long, however, before the AP, "the Associated Press" reported in early June that Mueller quote "may expand his inquiry to investigate the roles of the attorney general and the deputy attorney general in the firing of FBI director James Comey."

Then, in his testimony on June 8, Comey himself bolstered the case for an obstruction inquiry when he said, among other things, that he believed he was fired because of the Russian investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: It`s my judgment that I was fired because of the Russia investigation. I was fired in some way to change -- or the endeavor was to change the way the Russia investigation was being conducted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, the first indication that President Trump might attempt to fire Mueller came four days later, when the president`s friend and CEO of the conservative media site Newsmax said this on PBS:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDY WOODRUFF, PBS: Is President Trump prepared to let the special counsel pursue his investigation?

CHRISTOPHER RUDDY, CEO, NEWSMAX: Well, I think he`s considering perhaps terminating the special counsel. I think he`s weighing that option.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, that was clinical. He`s weighing the option of terminating the special counsel.

Then came a major turning point in the probe on June 14. "The Washington Post" revealed that the special counsel was in fact investigating the president for possible obstruction of justice.

The president himself even acknowledged that development, tweeting the next day that: "I am being investigated for firing the FBI director. Witch- hunt."

It was around this time, according to "The New York Times," that the president began to argue for Mueller`s firing.

Joining me right now is Julia Ainsley, who is of course investigative reporter for NBC News, and Jonathan Swan is national political reporter with Axios.

So, put the context together, so we try to all recall last June the developments. They moved quickly, firing of Comey, going after Mueller, ordering the firing of Mueller. It all seems -- as I have been arguing throughout the show so far, it is logical. You`re looking at a guy making steps, using his office to protect himself from prosecution.

JULIA AINSLEY, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Right.

He thought and he still kind of thinks that there is an insurgency against him that is coming from the Justice Department and from the FBI. And as that pressure was heating last June, Chris, he wanted to see what he could do about it, and he wanted to fire Mueller.

And I think what is also important is to flash-forward one month from there, where he wanted to fire Jeff Sessions, because he realized he couldn`t do this. So, he wanted to fire the man who recused himself and allowed Mueller to...

MATTHEWS: These are urges. This is like, in a dictatorship, when you -- Stalin or somebody -- I don`t want to say he`s Stalin -- is purging and killing people.

By the way, let me ask you this, Jonathan, because you try to follow it, and back to you on this.

Either there`s a deep state, a deep, amorphous, India-like, complicated, many, many people involved, all kinds of cultural stuff going on, or there`s one guy out to get you. And if this deep cultural, deep state thing they believe in, where all these bureaucrats spend decades getting Republicans, why bother knocking off the top guy?

It`s one or the other? Either you got one person who had a vendetta against you, Mueller, or you have got this amorphous mass of bureaucratic people all out to get you. Which does he believe?

JONATHAN SWAN, AXIOS: Well, Trump always personalizes everything. He always goes after the person.

But he had many conversations with people like Steve Bannon when he was in the White House about this very issue, exactly the point that you mentioned, because Steve Bannon would say to him things like, OK, so you fire Mueller. What happens next? Or you fire Rod Rosenstein. Who replaces him? Rachel Brand. OK, you fire her and then what happens?

You keep going down the list. And what Steve Bannon would say to Trump, according to Steve Bannon, is that you can fire the head of the FBI, but you can`t fire the institution.

So you have these institutions, and Washington is a city of institutions.

MATTHEWS: But why did he fire Mueller, against the advice of Mueller -- advice of Bannon?

SWAN: Well, he didn`t fire Mueller, obviously.

MATTHEWS: He ordered it.

SWAN: He wanted to.

MATTHEWS: He ordered it, according to "The New York Times."

SWAN: I still don`t think we know why he didn`t.

And, obviously, the reason being posited is that McGahn threatened to resign. I think the reason he hasn`t to date is largely because of Ty Cobb, who came in and has been a restraining influence on the president, does have a long-term...

MATTHEWS: The guy with the handlebar mustache.

SWAN: Big curly mustache, long-term relationship with Mueller, and really tried to turn Trump...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: What do you make of this? Is it the deep state, this farrago, this frightening Sargasso Sea of power and trouble beneath the surface, or has he got a personal enemy in Bob Mueller?

AINSLEY: I think he`s been wanting to go after that sea that you talk about.

That`s why he gets focused on things like the wiretapping of Trump Tower and the unmasking and all of these things that he picks up on. And it just builds into these crazy tweets.

But that`s exactly why they brought in Ty Cobb. They needed someone who is a lawyer within the White House who could handle this specifically.

MATTHEWS: OK.

A look at the president`s Twitter feed last June -- we`re talking about what happened last June, when he did order the firing, makes it very clear that the Russian probe was on his mind at the time he attempted to fire Mueller.

Among his tweets, the president said -- quote -- "They made up a phony collusion with the Russian story, found zero proof, so now they go for obstruction of justice on the phony story. Nice."

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: I love the way he talks. He talks like he thinks like he`s a tweeter. He thinks in tweets.

SWAN: The irony is like, you know, you have a contemporaneous view into his brain. It`s like when they bring him in for questioning, he goes, oh, no, I wasn`t thinking about this. Actually, yes, you tweeted about it.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Is he going to talk like that when he`s under oath? Nice.

AINSLEY: Sad.

MATTHEWS: Sad.

AINSLEY: Exclamation point.

MATTHEWS: I mean, it`s strange.

But, anyway, Trump`s lawyer said to "USA Today" misleading statement in August. He put out the word afterwards, I never was doing this. How do we put that together? It was a lie.

AINSLEY: That`s right. John Dowd, who came in right around the time, he started speaking more for the Trump legal team, because Jay Sekulow had been thought to really be doing a botched job of that.

So, John Dowd comes in. He makes this very categorical statement, more so than Trump or any of the other White House representatives ever did, by saying that he never considered firing Bob Mueller.

So, now you go back and you look at everything and you say, what can we believe and then also was this held so closely that Dowd didn`t even know? Are there people in this White House who don`t even know the things that run through the consideration in the president`s head?

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Who tells Huckabee Sanders to say it didn`t happen? Does Trump just -- do they just assume that`s what the message is?

SWAN: Well, here`s the thing. Look...

MATTHEWS: He did order the firing.

SWAN: "The New York Times," like any responsible media outlet, gives advance notice: We are going to write this story.

And if this really was categorically untrue, where are the White House denials in the original story? Where is the vehement denial from Don McGahn that this ever happened? Where are the on-the-record statements? They don`t exist.

MATTHEWS: Well, meanwhile, "The Wall Street Journal" is reporting tonight, for what it`s worth, that Trump`s legal team is studying a 1990s era court ruling in an effort to delay, limit, or avoid a possible interview and questioning between the president and the special counsel.

If they can avoid -- this is again against crosscurrents of truth or lying. The president said, yes, I will take it under oath. I will answer all the questions under oath.

And then they start looking for some precedent to protect him from having to answer any questions.

AINSLEY: Well, what is crazy, Chris, is we keep saying, of course the president has to talk, because no president would see it to be politically feasible to plead the Fifth or to pull out this `90s-era precedent.

But Trump has already been able to go against things that were just sort of political tradition and he does it every day. And he`s still there. He`s still the man in the White House.

MATTHEWS: He said, by the way, I can shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue.

Is that true, Jonathan, metaphorically? Can he get away with anything with his 39 percent?

SWAN: Oh, for 35 percent, sure. Look at all the things he`s gotten away with so far. What else do you want, Chris? What do you want?

MATTHEWS: All this bad publicity last week with Stormy, and it`s all a mulligan, and the whole thing is...

AINSLEY: That wasn`t even the most important story.

(CROSSTALK)

SWAN: Five-star family. I mean, where do you want to go with this?

MATTHEWS: It`s unlimited power.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: What`s his plan?

Because you`re -- the gleam in your eye. Here`s what I think he plans to do. Run for reelection with about 39 percent, destroy his opponent personally, give him nicknames or give her nicknames, destroy her, dump all over the person as a person, and hoping he can get back up to mid-40s.

SWAN: I think he`s going to -- I have always thought he`s going to run for reelection.

And the only data point -- people keep speculating that he won`t. The only data point is before he dispatched one of his ambassadors, Trump said I want you back in 2019 to help me with the reelect. So, he`s thinking about it.

MATTHEWS: He`s planning ahead. I agree.

Thank you, Julia Ainsley.

Are you on this? Do you want to make a bet he`s back again next time, 2020?

AINSLEY: This is why I like covering the Justice Department, not politics.

MATTHEWS: OK. All right.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: You`re entitled to take a pass.

Julia Ainsley, great reporter. Jonathan Swan, great stuff coming from him.

Up next, as we learn more about Trump ordering the firing of Robert Mueller last June, the Republicans, led by this guy -- you want a friend like this guy Devin Nunes. This guy is the scarecrow. He will defend anything. He`s out there -- he`s firing up the fog machine.

And this time -- actually, he got caught. Nobody believes what he`s putting out.

This is HARDBALL, where the action is.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

David -- well, Devin Nunes has never really recused himself from the House Intelligence Committee investigation into Russia`s role in the 2016 election. He`s the chairman of the committee.

Still sitting atop one of the House`s most powerful committees, Nunes from California continues to use his position to serve Donald Trump`s personal interests.

While President Trump has not yet fired Mr. Mueller, it does seem like Congressman Nunes is intent on doing the president`s work for him. This time, Nunes and his Republican cohort are touting a shocking new memo which they wrote that allegedly outlines how the government abused secret surveillance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are four pages of a memorandum prepared by the Intelligence Committee that will shock the conscience of this country when it comes to the horrific abuses that occurred during the last administration and that I believe continue to pose a threat to Donald Trump`s presidency.

REP. DARRELL ISSA (R), CALIFORNIA: When the people of America see the four pages and then the additional documents, what they`re going to see is we have a problem in the FISA.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s hard for me to imagine anyone reading this memo and just shrugging their shoulders and say, oh, it`s no big deal. I assure you that most people will not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Revenge of the nerds here.

It`s become a pattern of sorts for Congressman Nunes, who seems to believe that, if at first you don`t succeed, try again. Last spring, he accused the Obama administration of unmasking Trump associates who had been picked up by surveillance. The information was given to the congressman by the White House, and he got it at the White House. Then he ran back to the White House the next day to say, guess what I found?

He found it at the White House. A total joke.

According to NBC News, a review of the surveillance material flagged by Nunes shows no inappropriate action. That`s not all he`s doing.

As head of the committee, he`s also launched two new probes, one into the Uranium One deal and the second into Hillary Clinton, of course, private e- mail server.

For more, I`m joined by David Corn, Washington bureau chief of Mother Jones and an MSNBC contributor.

Thank you so much, David.

And I just want to give you some time here. I`m going to get out of your way. I want you to explain how the scarecrow operates. All he seems to want to do is scare away the press, the media from the people, the people in the center-right. There`s no hope on the right, far right.

Don`t pay any attention to this investigation of the Russian involvement by the president or the Russian involvement in our campaigns for president. Don`t pay any attention. Don`t think about these other weird things we got to you talk about.

That seems to be what he`s up to.

DAVID CORN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: It`s deflect and distract again and again and again.

And I`m not saying that there`s -- that there may not be a problem with surveillance. It could well be that an application put in for a super secret warrant was put in inappropriately.

But the question you have to ask yourself, Chris, is, is that a bigger deal than Putin and Russia undermining our own election? I hear none of these guys getting upset about that, because that does taint the president and that raises problems for them.

So, instead, it`s unmasking, it`s the leak of classified administration. They go up against -- oh, you`re the FBI, sinister, dark force, deep state. They were conspiring with the Clinton campaign, even though they released that information right before the election. But they were still conspiring with the Clinton campaign to get Donald Trump from the get-go.

They just throw one thing after the other. It`s like spaghetti against the wall. Don`t look at what`s really happening. It`s a guy -- it`s a guy juggling monkeys. That`s what it is.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Look, you`re pretty clear on there. Let`s go through the history.

We spent forever talking about something called Whitewater with the Clintons that ended up being nothing. We ended up going -- having how many hours of hearings on Benghazi, on the so-called e-mails? End and end -- they had all the resources of the U.S. Congress to investigate that. They come up with nothing.

So, now they`re trying to find something else to focus on that will come up with nothing, because they`re afraid this thing about the president will come up with something.

I think that`s what they`re afraid of, not that it`s a waste of time, but, at the end of it, Bob Mueller is going to get his prey. He`s going to go what he`s looking for. He`s going to find obstruction. He`s going to find collusion. He`s going to find possibly money laundering. And they`re scared to death of that, because that will bring down this administration.

CORN: But whether he does or doesn`t, on the way there, Congress does have responsibilities of its own. There are two congressional investigations, actually more than two, and yet they`re not paying any attention to that.

MATTHEWS: You`re so tutorial about this.

But you know what this Nunes did.

CORN: I know.

MATTHEWS: He went down to the Old Executive Office Building and got some dirt.

CORN: Of course. Of course. Yes.

MATTHEWS: And came back the next morning to the West Wing of the White House, and delivered what he got from his own people.

(CROSSTALK)

CORN: When the intelligence community last year put out its final assessment of the Russian operation, it said one of its goals was to sow chaos and discord in America.

What is Nunes and the others doing? They are trying to do exactly the same thing, make it confused and chaotic, so people don`t know what to think. They are actually, in a way, whether they believe it or not, in league with Vladimir Putin to confuse us about what to look at.

Don`t look at this. Don`t look at that. Look at the guy juggling monkeys over there. Look at me. I`m juggling monkeys. It`s turning into a circus.

MATTHEWS: But so many of these Republicans in the Congress are all doing their parts in the circus.

CORN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: Is somebody -- is there a ringmaster? Who says, you,Nunes, you do this, you over here do this, you do this? You, Darrell Issa, do this.

All these guys seemed to have their assigned roles. Who is doing the assignment?

CORN: I don`t know if there`s a central brain in the middle of all this.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

CORN: I think they`re all trying different things. Jim Jordan has been out there, another congressman, talking about the FBI being this deep state conspiracy.

Nunes is focusing on the four...

MATTHEWS: Mark Meadows.

CORN: On a four-page memo, Chris. It has four pages. We know what that means. And so -- but they`re all like throwing...

MATTHEWS: What does it mean?

CORN: It means that there`s four pages.

MATTHEWS: No, that`s McCarthy stuff.

I have here in this hand. No, I have here in this hand.

CORN: Single-spaced or double-spaced, I want to know.

MATTHEWS: I have here in my hand these...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: David Corn, your clarity has been very helpful.

Up next: The news that Trump ordered the firing of Robert Mueller underscores a big problem for Republicans. They have got a midterm election coming up in November, 10 months from now, and Trump`s character could drag them all down. That`s the warning we all read today in "USA Today" from Jeb Bush.

We are going to get to that from the Roundtable.

You`re watching HARDBALL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

The news that President Trump ordered the firing of special counsel Robert Mueller back in June of last year creates yet another headache for Republicans looking to fend off a blue wave, if you will, coming this November, in the midterms.

Former Florida Governor Jeb Bush is now sounding an alarm across the country, warning Republicans they`re in for a beating if they can`t distance themself from the person of this president. In an interview with "USA Today," Governor Bush lambasted Trump`s erratic leadership style, obsession with Twitter, and what he calls racist comments, telling the newspaper, quote, the character of the guy and the turnover and the fighting and just the constant chaos around his presidency that is self- inflicted has made it hard for him. Well, I want the president to succeed. I don`t think he will succeed if he copies on this path.

Bush went on to add if the election is nationalized and it`s not about the economy, then we`ll lose.

Let`s bring in the HARDBALL roundtable tonight. Pete Buttigieg is the Democratic mayor of South Bend, Indiana. George F. Will, of course, is a national columnist with the "Washington Post". And Sabrina Siddiqui is political reporter for "The Guardian".

I want you all -- I`ll start with George because you know Jeb well. What do you think he hopes to accomplish with this rather strong shot across the bow?

GEORGE F. WILL, NATIONAL COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST : I`m not sure had he an agenda. Someone asked him questions. He agreed to an interview. But the persona that he says is dangerous, the presidential persona, is the same one he had in 2016 and he won the election.

A lot of people voted for him not in spite of but because of the persona. So I think that that won`t itself be crippling. You work for the man who obviously stayed all politics is local. Not necessarily. If the economy`s doing well, if the country`s at peace, if people are inured to the behavior of the president by then, if it`s become both spectacular and boring at the same time, which it might have been, wouldn`t worry about.

Remember, Chris, a week ago people in this town were saying gosh, will a two-day shutdown in January have a big ripple effect in November? Over the weekend in January.

MATTHEWS: OK. It`s the old (INAUDIBLE) Don`t go by these current polls.

WILL: Yes.

MATTHEWS: It seems to me there`s three rings in the circus. There`s the economy which is looking good. There`s the personality of this president which is erratic and dangerous and then there is the investigation by Robert Mueller, all three of them are going to matter over the next couple of years.

Mayor, what`s going to matter between now and November? Which of the three rings will be the most? The personality, the economy, or this investigation?

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), SOUTH BEND, INDIANA: I think the economy but not in the sense of the top line numbers. Look at 2016. We had a so-called economic --

MATTHEWS: You have a broadcaster`s voice, do you know that?.

BUTTIEGIEG: Thanks.

MATTHEWS: That`s a good thing to have.

BUTTIEGIEG: I`m going to stick to my day job if they let me.

But, you know, we had an economic anxiety election allegedly under conditions of full employment. It`s about things that are a lot deeper than just the top line economic numbers and those same things that are roiling under the surface in 2016 are roiling under the surface in 2018 at least where I come from in the Industrial Midwest.

MATTHEWS: So, the manufacturing guys are still worried.

BUTTIGIEG: Of course. Yes, how could you not be.

MATTHEWS: Sabrina?

SABRINA SIDDIQUI, POLITICAL REPORTER, THE GUARDIAN: Well, look, I think that ultimately, when you`re looking at Republicans` prospects in 2018, the calculation they`re making it one that they need this president`s signature in order to enact their agenda and in order to have something to run on. So, a tax reform, they didn`t want to be on the wrong side of the president because that is the single legislative accomplishment that they have one year into his presidency.

And then there`s also the fact that the Republican base is still overwhelming behind this president. Now, that`s a short-term gain, of course, where they`re hoping to boost turnout in November. The long-term ramification that I think what Jeb Bush was speaking to you will not expand your electorate to include people of color, single women and a lot of the groups that have felt alienated by this party because of a lot of incendiary rhetoric we`ve heard from this president.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I think we`re getting a big turnout of women running for office this year. Do you expect a big turnout by women at the polls this November? A big turnout?

SIDDIQUI: I think there`s certainly some indication if you look at some of the results in Alabama, it`s a special election, you don`t want to take away too many implications. But there`s a left base now activated and a lot of women tend to lean Democratic. But then there`s also I think men of color who obviously made a difference in a lot of elections. And so, that`s a very interesting line you`re going to probably see play a very important role.

MATTHEWS: This is the oldest argument. I did work in politics for years. I`ve always argued that you need an opposition message. It`s not good enough to just bet against the bank or bet against city hall. Do the Democrats have a message, do they need one for `18?

WILL: Remember what the Israeli diplomat thought about the Palestinians, they never miss an opportunity for missing an opportunity. And the Democrats I think are laying the groundwork to lose another election.

MATTHEWS: You think they could lose the House again?

WILL: Yes, I think they could. I`m not saying they will, but yes, if they go into this election and they talk only about immigration and say a single-payer plan becomes sort of a litmus test, then if they run on the slogan if you like your health care plan, you certainly can`t keep it, I`m not sure that`s a winner.

MATTHEWS: Mayor, what do you think about the people at the local level? Will they get out this time, the Democrats?

BUTTIGIEG: I think so. Yes. I think, you know, Most Democrats are very motivated, especially with this --

MATTHEWS: Is Donnelly going to get re-elected out there?

BUTTIGIEG: I think so. Yes. He`s got an amazing combination, discipline, timing and luck. It was one thing we were talking about how he would survive Hillary`s midterm. It`s another thing altogether right now. But I agree, it`s certainly within our powers as a party to blow this opportunity if we don`t focus on what`s --

MATTHEWS: I tell you one change. The suburban women are going to vote against Trump this time. They`re going to go completely against him. I really think that will be different and a lot of men in the burbs.

The roundtable is sticking with us. Up next, we`re going to get three big scoops. We talk about all weekend perhaps.

You`re watching HARDBALL. That`s a long time, as George points out. And HARDBALL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Well, a few minutes ago, president Trump arrived back at the White House. He talked Davos, of course, but not Mueller. Let`s watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(INAUDIBLE)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNTIED STATES: Davos was really great. Our country`s doing great. A lot of money is coming into our country. We have many, many people from Davos bringing their money over here. I think it was a very, very successful trip. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: That`s our president. We`ll be right back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: We`re back with the HARDBALL roundtable.

Mayor Pete, tell me something I don`t know, from South Bend, Indiana.

BUTTIGIEG: The reason I`m in D.C. is we had the U.S. Conference of Mayors kicked off a new task force in automation. For the last three days, I`ve been with elected officials from both parties from around the country. The word Russia was not uttered once.

MATTHEWS: Automation was.

BUTTIGIEG: Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: Are we going to be replaced? Can mayors be replaced?

BUTTIGIEG: I like to think they can`t automate the job of mayor. If there`s a way, somebody will find it.

MATTHEWS: George Will.

WILL: You probably know that pitchers and catchers report in 19 days and you probably know that Rutherford B. Hayes was the first president to have a telephone. You may not know that what`s coming from Mr. Trump will be tariffs on steel in the name of national security and the WTO will probably knock that down and we`ll be that much closer to a trade war.

MATTHEWS: Wow, that will help in a couple places.

Sabrina?

SIDDIQUI: A poll commissioned by a major Democratic political group found that in battleground states, even the most red leaning areas Republican be voters hold Republicans in Congress as low esteem as they do Democrats, which is troubling for a Republican turnout in November. It also means you`re going to get a lot more candidates like Roy Moore, some of these fringe candidates who`ve been more on the mainstream.

MATTHEWS: Well, nobody likes anybody.

Anyway, thank you, Mayor Buttigieg, from South Bend. A wonderful place. And thank you, George F. Will. And thank you, Sabrina Siddiqui.

When we return, let me finish tonight with the Democrats pick to give their response to the State of the Union. They picked Joe Kennedy. They`re going back to the basics.

You`re watching HARDBALL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with a big news out from the Democratic leadership in Congress.

Its selection of Robert Kennedy`s grandson for the party`s State of the Union response shows the Democrats are wanting to touch base with their gloried past. Picking Massachusetts Congressman Joe Kennedy III is a reach to recapture the wide progressive unity that brought excitement and power and magic, of course, to the new frontier politics of the 1960s, and invoking the name and the blood of the Kennedy family itself, the Democratic leaders of the House and Senate are exhuming the scenes along the railroad tracks in June of 1968 when Robert Kennedy was carried to Arlington Cemetery. No one still alive forgets the faces of African- Americans singing the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" on the platform of Baltimore`s union station or the poor white families along the route their hands raised in affectionate salute.

Bobby Kennedy personified that Democratic unity more than any leader has since and explained why his grandson has been chosen to raise again the old banner as the two parties did in announcing that young Kennedy from Massachusetts for good paying manufacturing jobs and for expanding opportunities known for that and calling the young lawmaker a relentless fighter for working Americans. It`s a return of the tribute his grandfather paid Democrats back at the `64 convention.

Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT KENNEDY, FORMER U.S. SENATOR: No matter what talent an individual possesses, what energy he might have, no matter how much integrity and honesty he might have, if he is by himself and particularly a political figure, he can accomplish very little. But if he is sustained as President Kennedy was by the Democratic Party all over the United States dedicated to the same things that he was attempting to accomplish, you can accomplish a great deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Robert Kennedy believes in that coalition, campaigning in the `68 Indiana presidential primary, he rode in a controvertible through Gary, Indiana, seated between Richard Hatcher, the city`s first African-American mayor and Tony Zale, the former middleweight champion. He wanted his message to be both stark and personal. Quote, I proved I can really be a leader of a broad spectrum, I can be a bridge between blacks and whites without stepping back from my positions.

What made Robert Kennedy so unique as the grate progressive columnist Jack Newfield once wrote, was that he felt the same empathy for white working men and women that he felt for blacks, Latinos and Native Americans. He thought of cops, waitresses, construction workers and firefighters, all as his people.

Bobby Kennedy was the kind of leader we like today. By picking his impressive grandson to speak this coming Tuesday night, the Democrats are saying what they see coming in their future. And starting this Tuesday night, the Democrats hope to win back Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania. They could be going back to their basics to do it. They`re out to match the brand name Trump with one that`s proven itself over the decades, Kennedy.

"Bobby Kennedy: A Raging Spirit", ten weeks on the "New York Times" bestseller list. You can get a copy this week on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or your local bookstores. Please do so.

That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

END

Copy: Content and programming copyright 2018 MSNBC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2018 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.