Thanksgiving Edition Transcript 11/24/17 Hardball with Chris Matthews

Shannon Pettypiece, Dana Milbank

Date: November 24, 2017
Guest: Shannon Pettypiece, Dana Milbank

Good evening, I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

A year after Donald Trump`s election shocked the world, he remains
unpredictable. Tonight, we look at President Trump in his own words. We
will examine the way he has conducted himself in the goldfish bowl of the
oval office where he has delivered on the promises he made and how he has
handled his many setbacks.

The Trump presidency has had, to put it charitably, mixed results. But it
has never ceased to keep our attention. Let`s take a look back at some key
moments of the last year.


our land that I will be President for all Americans.

We are in the process of putting together one of the great cabinets that
has ever been assembled in the history of our nation. Do you like it so
far, everybody?

This American carnage stops right here and stops right now.

Frederick Douglass is an example of somebody who has done an amazing job
and is being recognized more and more.

I want to just pray for Arnold if we can, for those writings, OK.

We had a very smooth rollout of the travel ban, but we had a bad court.

I have nothing to do with Russia. I have to tell you, it`s an unbelievably
complex subject. Nobody knew that health care could be so complicated.

I never said repeal and replace Obamacare. You have all heard my speeches.
I never said repeal it and replace it within 64 days.

The world is a mess. I inherited a mess whether it`s the Middle East,
whether it`s North Korea, whether it`s so many other things.

If you don`t catch a hacker, OK, in the act, it`s very hard to say who did
the hacking. With that being said, I will go along with Russia. Could
have been China. Could have been a lot of different groups.

I mean, had Andrew Jackson been a little bit later, you wouldn`t have had
the civil war.

Coming from a different world and only being a politician for a short
period of time – how am I doing? I`m doing OK. I`m President. Hey, I`m
President. Can you believe it? Right.

Regardless of recommendation, I was going to fire Comey. I said to myself,
I said, you know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up

My son is a wonderful young man. He took a meeting with a Russian lawyer,
not a government lawyer, but a Russian lawyer. It was a short meeting. I
think from a practical standpoint, most people would have taken that
meeting. It`s called opposition research or even research into your

When we finally get a chance to repeal and replace, they don`t take
advantage of it, so that`s disappointing.

I am disappointed in the attorney general. He should not have recused
himself almost immediately after he took office. And if he was going to
recuse himself, he should have told me prior to taking office. And I would
have quite simply picked somebody else.

They should have approved healthcare last night, but you can`t have
everything. Boy, oh boy.

North Korea best not make any more threats to the United States. They will
be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen.

I think there`s blame on both sides. And I have no doubt about it. And
you don`t have any doubt about it either. We have to close down our
government, we are building that wall.

Wouldn`t you love to see one of these NFL owners, when somebody disrespects
our flag, to say, get that son of a bitch off the field right now. Out.
He`s fired. He`s fired!

You know, the saddest thing is that because I`m the President of the United
States, I am not supposed to be involved with the justice department. I`m
not supposed to be involved with the FBI. I`m not supposed to be doing the
kind of things that I would love to be doing.

But let me tell you, the one that matters is me. I`m the only one that
matters, because when it comes to it, that`s what the policy is going to
be. You`ve seen that. You`ve seen it strongly.


MATTHEWS: Joining me now after all that is Shannon Pettypiece, a White
House correspondent for Bloomberg News, Dana Milbank is a columnist, of
course, for the “Washington Post” and Jason Johnson is a policy editor at
the Root and an MSNBC political contributor.

I don`t know where we go on that menu. I want to start with it, but what
do you think? How is history going to capsulize all that when they try to
put together the first year of the Donald Trump American presidency?

you look at what he said in his statements, you look at that as
unprecedented. No President has ever spoken like this. Made these sort of
bold proclamations and statement. But when you look at his actions, what
he is actually has done and accomplished I think, you know, this past year,
it`s pretty modest. And history, it look –.

[19:05:09] MATTHEWS: Good modest or bad modest.

PETTYPIECE: I think modest in the sense of he hasn`t accomplished that

MATTHEWS: Yes. Well, he has kept our attention, Dana. I am stunned. I
want to start with his historical knowledge, and Jason`s shaking his head.
I remember Dan Quayle used to make these comments, like the holocaust was
the worst thing ever happened in our history, of the country`s history.
What about Frederick Douglass being a guy around the corner, I mean. Way
back in the 18th century we are talking about here or early 19s and this
guy is talking about as one of his neighbors. What do you mean about that

DANA MILBANK, COLUMNIST, WASHINGTON POST: And he is being recognize more
and more, day by day.


MILBANK: Frederick Douglass.

You know, of all the things you played in there, there is one that I
absolutely agree with Trump, at the very end, when he said, I`m the only
one that matters. And that`s the thread that`s running through all of
this. It`s not so much that he is President of the United States, but it`s
about Donald Trump and whether he`s unhappy with this country or happy with
this country, how he is being perceived, how he is being believed, his
attorney general has been, how the NFL owners are being, all about him in
each case and it has, in a sense, been a magical voyage of discovery.

MATTHEWS: Does he believe the world exists or is just part of his
experience and tantasms (ph) like all of this is just a dream. And it all
that matters is my id, my ego. Because when he talks about things like you
say, it doesn`t seem to matter that there`s nuclear weapons in North Korea.
It matters how does he sized up against the leader of North Korea as a
macho thing.

MILBANK: And has that short fat guy insulted me.

MATTHEWS: Yes. Like it`s a high school thing.

MILBANK: Look, I mean, we can`t put him on the couch. We don`t know. But
- and I`m certainly no expert in the subject, but he is commonly described
as a narcissist who can only see things from his perspective. But it is,
at the very least, as we were saying, entertaining because the rest of us
are watching him learn about Frederick Douglass or learning that the
President`s not supposed to get involved in the justice department or
learning that healthcare reform is so hard.

MATTHEWS: You know, he does have shtick too. He does have shtick too,
Jason. Like he does know that he does certain techniques, like, you are
fired. He knows that`s a funny line because of all those years on
television, firing people. He understands there`s shtick to this act.

JASON JOHNSON, POLICY EDITOR, THE ROOT: He is a carnival barker and he`s a
performer. And honestly, Chris, if we just had different music over the
background, it reminded me of that old `80s video, land of confusion by
Phil Collins, like it just seem like that strange video with puppets
screaming and yelling, every other time you see him, he seems to be ranting
about something and he`s never pleased.

And it`s so interesting. When you looked at George Bush, when you look at
Obama, you look at Clinton, it seemed like these guys were like, every once
in a while, you get that sense they would wake up and say, I`m the

MILBANK: But they are smiling.

JOHNSON: They are smiling. He doesn`t seem to like the job and he`s in a
constant state of rage, and doesn`t seem to accomplish much. It`s bizarre
to see for only eight months in office.

MATTHEWS: Shannon.

PETTYPIECE: I think to both of your points, they are very correct. And
even people who like him, his friends, people who think he is doing a great
job, would agree with your point that he is a narcissist, at the end of the
day. He views the world about himself.

And to your point also that he is constantly in a state of combat. That is
where he is best is as fighting and that`s something that his friends and
enemies will tell you at the same time.

MATTHEWS: He wants to hold on to his 38 percent or whatever it is.

Anyway, President Trump made many promises to voters in the campaign trail
and he kept some of them. Some of them. Such as ending the Paris climate
deal. Let`s watch.


TRUMP: We are going to cancel the Paris climate agreement.

For every new federal regulation, two existing regulations must be
eliminated. Regulations are killing our country and our jobs.

We will also immediately stop the job-killing Trans-Pacific Partnership.


MATTHEWS: Well, some of his promises were a lot harder to keep than he
realized like repealing President Obama`s health care. Let`s watch.


TRUMP: Real change begins with immediately repealing and replacing

We will also have an efficient and responsible federal budget. No more
waste. No more throwing away taxpayer dollars.

Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims
entering the United States until our country`s representatives can figure
out what the hell is going on.


MATTHEWS: Well, in some issues, he did an about-face like labeling China a
currency manipulator during the campaign but not now. Let`s watch.


TRUMP: We will build a great wall and Mexico will pay for the wall.

I will direct my secretary of the treasury to labor China a currency

I promise you, I will not be taking very long vacations if I take them at
all. There`s no time for vacations. We are not going to be big – we`re
not going to be big on vacations.


[19:10:06] MATTHEWS: Did you see Chris Christie shaking his head, like,
this is very important.

Well, I see a lot there. The wall. There isn`t no wall. There`s not
going to be a wall. But it was a good demagoguery thing. Health care. He
can`t seem to do it although he might try to do it this fall, this
December. He is killing regulations. Business loves this stuff. He is
killing all the environmental regulations. And of course China, the
climate thing, he just killed it. He is trying to kill it. So some things
he did that he succeeded at that nobody likes but he`s done it anyway and
some things he`s never going to get done.

PETTYPIECE: At this point, what he has been most successful at
accomplishing is undoing Obama`s legacy, sort of systematically going
through one by one and undoing the past eight years of Obama. And on the
health care front, doing as much as he possibly can to undo Obamacare, you
know, just from the executive office. So he has been very successful at
undoing those eight years of Obama and the deregulation front.



MATTHEWS: So why is he doing this? Why is he spending so much effort to
get rid of things just because he wants to get even with Obama?

MILBANK: Well, it`s partially that. But it`s also, that`s what he can do.
Like if you are looking at the categories of things he had done and things
he hasn`t done, he has been able to do the destructive things, to undo
things, he hasn`t been able to do the constructive things and that is to
build a new policy. That`s not unique to Donald Trump. Nobody seems to be
able to do that.

MATTHEWS: So it`s easy to get rid of the individual mandate for Obamacare
than it is to create anything.

MILBANK: Or at least to defund the insurers which essentially kills
Obamacare. But you mentioned DACA, the Iran deal, you know, the Paris,
Trans-Pacific, you go down the line, it`s quite easy to take things apart
and let them fall apart. It`s another thing to build it. And that`s where
you ever seen any of it.

MATTHEWS: Jason, two things he wanted to do that I wanted him to do. No
more stupid wars and build up this country with infrastructure. I don`t
see a lot of infrastructure. And I do worry about why he seems to want to
rip the scab off the Iranian deal, keep that thing hot and get that thing
hopped up again, keeping the Iraq war going. I mean, he doesn`t – or
Afghanistan, I should say. He doesn`t seem to be that particularly anti-
war as President.

JOHNSON: No, no. In fact, he is letting everything continue that Obama
was doing, everything continue that Bush was doing.

And Chris, I agree with you. The one thing that I thought that a President
Trump, who puts his name on everything, would do is I thought we would be
building. I thought he would be building.

MATTHEWS: Why not? Wouldn`t the unions love it?

JOHNSON: You would think that would be the most reasonable thing in the
world. The fact that he hasn`t been able to get that through, his own
Congress has been probably the greatest failure of this presidency from a
policy standpoint.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, President Trump argued that he would be a great
President because he knows how to make deals. Let`s watch him at that.


TRUMP: I will bring America to a new level. I will negotiate deals that
nobody can negotiate like I do. Nobody – I know everybody that I`m
running against. I mean, nobody is going to be able to do the kind of
things I can do.

You know, don`t forget, I have been in business. I have made a lot of
money, which I`m going to do for the country now. I have been focused on
jobs and money and deals, and that`s what I do and that`s what the country

It`s supposed to be, you get along with Congress and you cajole and you go
back and forth and everybody gets in a room and we end up with deals.

If I get elected President, I`m going to be in the White House a lot. I`m
not leaving. We have deals to make. Who the hell wants to leave?


MATTHEWS: Well, the question is, Sharon – Shannon, when is he going to
cut a deal? Because he doesn`t seem to have a better deal with the
Iranians or with anybody in the world. We have no deals coming out of his
Asia trip, no deals, no trade pacts, no bi-laterals, no multi-laterals,
nothing. And there`s nothing going on with his Republican Congress, which
he is about to lose next year probably. So if he is ever going to cut a
deal, he better do it pretty soon.

PETTYPIECE: And some of these deals like trade deals take a long time to
do. They take a long time to get done. He does these little incremental
deals like he will get a country to buy some military equipment in exchange
for something but those are very marginal deals.

The biggest thing I`m surprised about is Congress and that you would have
thought that possibly with all the – he would have been able to work out
some better deals and negotiations with Congress. But obviously, unlike in
past deals where you are negotiating one-on-one with someone, Congress, you
are negotiating with dozens if not hundreds of people at a time and that
really caught him off guard and now it`s almost like he`s given up his
hands and said, I just can`t do a deal with these people.

MILBANK: The potential, I think, that he had and still theoretically has
is he is not traditionally a Republican or a Democrat. He is there for
himself. So he could reach across the aisle in a way that others haven`t.
But you know, by my count, he has made exactly one deal across with the
Democrats and that was just this temporary three-month extension of the
spending deal.

MATTHEWS: Not on the tax deal.

MILBANK: He really hasn`t in any big way. And I think he just got caught
up in the traditional Washington zero-sum politics and that his team is the
Republican. Democrats certainly aren`t going to reach out and try to help
him. And it`s been politics as usual albeit with a more flamboyant guy.

MATTHEWS: Jason, why doesn`t he cut deals with Chuck Schumer? He is also
a deal maker. Why is it always stuck to that need to get 50 out of 52
Republicans in the Senate, the same old, same old every time and all it
takes is three Republicans to say no and it all crashes and burns. Why
doesn`t he try to reach over and grab five or ten from the other side or
write a tax bill the Democrats are willing to go along with?

[19:15:18] JOHNSON: Because I don`t think Donald Trump understands how to
make a deal when he is on equal footing. Most of his deal making has been,
I have got money. You need me to get this thing done. He is talking to
people who are like I don`t need you to get reelected. I don`t need your
power. I don`t need your assistance.

What is more interesting to me is, you know, everyone around him is cutting
deals. Jared Kushner is cutting deals. Paul Manafort cut deals.
Papadopoulos has cut deal. Everyone around Donald Trump seems to
understand how to negotiate better than he is.

MATTHEWS: Those are the (INAUDIBLE).

JOHNSON: Exactly.

MATTHEWS: Deals about not going to prison for a long time.

Anyway, coming up, Trump`s trouble with the truth. “The Washington Post”
has been counting up Trump`s falsehoods. It`s an average of more than five
a day. In fact, five and a half a day. We have got some of the biggest
whoppers, his all-time favorites or our all-time favorites of his. Plus
all the people, places, or things Trump has gone on twitter to insult.

This is “Hardball” where the action is.


[19:19:16] MATTHEWS: Welcome back to “Hardball.”

“The Washington Post” has been tracking all of the President`s falsehoods
since taking office in January. And last week, it reported that Trump
makes an average of five and a half false or misleading claims a day. And
is on track to reach 1,999 claims by the end of his first year in office.
Here are a few of his favorite most-repeated claims. Let`s watch.


TRUMP: I have to say, the whole Russian thing is what it`s turned out to
be. This was the Democrats coming up with an excuse for losing an

The whole Russian thing was an excuse for the Democrats losing the election
and it turns out to be just one excuse.

Obamacare is a disaster. It`s virtually dead as far as I`m concerned, it
really is dead. And I predicted that a long time ago.

President Obama, after a long period of time, was able to finally push it
through, but pushed through something that`s now failed, really failing

So, the insurance companies have made a fortune with Obamacare, an absolute

Obamacare is a wreck. It`s a mess. It`s destroying lives.

Obamacare is finished. It`s dead. It`s gone. It`s no longer – you
shouldn`t even mention – it`s gone. There is no such thing as Obamacare

We`re the highest-tax country in the world.

We are having not only reform. We`re having the largest tax cuts in the
history of our country.

We`re working to give the American people a giant tax cut for Christmas.
We are giving them a big, beautiful Christmas present in the form of a
tremendous tax cut. It will be the biggest cut in the history of our


MATTHEWS: We`re back with our panel, Shannon Pettypiece, Dana Milbank, and
Jason Johnson.

Jason, this end – from your end, why does he do this? Does it matter?
Does truth matter? Wasn`t it Moynihan who said you`re entitled to your own
opinion, not your own facts? But he has his own facts.

JOHNSON: He has his own facts.

But, also, we`re in a unique place as far as his support base. He has a
support base that is absolutely convinced that, no matter what Trump says,
that his intentions to do it are more important than if he accomplishes it.

And almost no politician has ever had that much elasticity. He can say, I
want to do this, I want to do this, and no matter what he doesn`t
accomplish, his supporters are like, hey, he tried, but Congress stood in
his way.

MATTHEWS: He does have a Greek chorus.


MATTHEWS: He has “FOX & Friends.” He`s got Hannity at night. He does
have people, Laura Ingraham. They tend to say, yes, amen, at least most of
the time.


He`s operating within that echo chamber. And I also think it`s true – and
it`s not clear to me that he knows that the things he`s saying are not
true. Like, he seems to believe that whatever the last thing…


MILBANK: … he said is true.

MATTHEWS: Did he believe Obama was an illegal immigrant?

MILBANK: Who knows what is actually going on in his head.

MATTHEWS: Well, I`m asking you. You said you think he might it. Did he
believe that?

MILBANK: Well, he seems – his – the guy who wrote his autobiography with
him says he`s a guy who seems to believe that whatever he says is true or
at least ought to be true.

And I think that`s why, in our “Washington Post” count, you see there were
50 different lies or falsehoods that he said more than 30 times apiece.
So, it`s – it`s just part of the program. It`s what he does.

MATTHEWS: You know, down South, they say, it would like to rain? It would
like to rain.

I just got to thinking, he would like it to be the truth. It like, how do
you know what he`d like to believe? I think he says things in his own
interest. He could sell a car that was a junker, a lemon, and tell you
this is the best car that was ever on wheels.


MATTHEWS: He could sell a house like that.

PETTYPIECE: Yes. It`s the salesman`s pitch.

MATTHEWS: But I think it`s the salesman. It`s the overstatement, the
claim that is only in his interest to make and it has nothing to do with
the truth.


And one that kind of stuck with me from his real estate days was, he used
to say he was the biggest real estate developer in New York, when he knew
that wasn`t the case. And it was almost bizarre, because one of his
closest friends, Richard LeFrak, was a much bigger real estate developer in
New York.

MATTHEWS: Like Mort Zuckerman. They`re a lot of bigger guys than him.

PETTYPIECE: And yet he would go around saying that he was a bigger real
estate developer than like his close friend.

MATTHEWS: They laugh at him when you bring it up with these guys.

PETTYPIECE: So I think some of it`s marketing.

But to Dana`s point, too, I think sometimes his staff has – spin it and
twisted it in a way that it was the biggest inauguration crowd.


MATTHEWS: I think he`s like – Liberace was the world`s greatest pianist,

Anyway, the president has also exaggerated how great his presidency has
been. No surprise there. Let`s watch.


TRUMP: There has never been a presidency that`s done so much in such a
short period of time.

We`re unleashing a new era of American prosperity, perhaps like we have
never seen before.

We had the biggest audience in the history of inaugural speeches.

In the last 10 months, we have followed through on one promise after


TRUMP: I didn`t have a schedule, but if I did have a schedule, I would say
we are substantially ahead of schedule.


MATTHEWS: I don`t have a schedule.


MATTHEWS: But if I did have a schedule, that would be also better than
anybody else`s.


MATTHEWS: You wonder what this guy`s golf card looks like when he – let`s
see how I did here. Three, two, one.


MILBANK: Well, he grades himself along the way too. And he gets an A-plus
for everything, including the response to the hurricane.


MATTHEWS: Is he a part of our new culture, everybody gets a trophy,
starting with me for being me?

PETTYPIECE: Someone gave me the advice once on your annual performance
review, you know, don`t ever be objective about, well, you know, I really
could have done better. I did great. I was the best. I`m a number 10.
I`m outperforming all my expectations.

Just why not? Why not say you`re doing it? Why not?

MATTHEWS: I don`t get it.

But I think this bombastic P.T. Barnum part of his personality is all part
of his – he`s his own advance man, his own up-up man, they used to say in
Massachusetts, the guy who says, the governor`s here. He says, Donald
Trump is here.

JOHNSON: He`s pretended to be his own P.R. guy. Remember the John Barron
or whatever it is? He does this.

But also what he has perfected – and, again, you know, his supporters
believe it. And Republican, even if they don`t believe it, they go along
with it – is, whenever something doesn`t turn out to be what he wants,
it`s not his fault. Right? Oh, I did this. Congress stood in my way.


MATTHEWS: I bet there are people watching right now who are saying, why
are you laughing about this guy?

Because there is a part of it that is comic, as well as tragic. It is
ludicrous, his behavior. And the only way you are going to react to it is
to tighten your – and go, I`m so mad, because you can`t be constantly mad
about a clownish act.

Anyway, “The New York Times” has meticulously examined President Trump`s
Twitter account to make a list of all the people, places and things that
Trump has insulted on Twitter, projecting he`s on track to reach 650 by the
end of his first term.

First? Please. How about just term, OK?

He hit nearly all his favorite targets in one tweet two weeks ago – quote
– “Does the fake news media remember when crooked Hillary Clinton as
secretary of state was begging Russia to be our friend with the misspelled
reset button? Obama tried also, but he had zero chemistry with Putin.”

PETTYPIECE: Why aren`t the NFL players #stand for our anthem? How`d you
miss the NFL players in that too?



JOHNSON: I think the greatest tragedy of Twitter going to 280 characters
is, it`s doubled our chances of going to war.

The fact that the president…

MATTHEWS: And 6:30 in the morning, he starts.


MATTHEWS: You know when he gets “The Post” in the morning, “The Washington
Post”? “The Times” tells me that they get it like 6:30 in the morning, and
that`s when he begins.

MILBANK: Well, you can tell when he`s watching TV and when he`s reading
the newspaper, because that`s when he starts the Twitter, the Twitter

MATTHEWS: But he doesn`t watch much television, he says.


MILBANK: And, of course, like everything he has said, that`s 100 percent



MATTHEWS: Well, up next: Trump`s single-minded dismantling of all things
Obama. He`s got some sort of, don`t you think, obsession with his

This is HARDBALL, where the action is.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

It`s been evident ever since he pushed that bogus claim that his
predecessor was born in Kenya that Donald Trump holds a deep personal
grudge against former President Obama.

Even after winning the White House, Trump seems intent on upstaging his
predecessor by discrediting, dismantling and otherwise denigrating Obama`s

Let`s take a look back at some of the things he said about Obama and the
Obama administration over his last 10 months in office.


TRUMP: To be honest, inherited a mess. It`s a mess at home and abroad, a

In the last eight years, the past administration has put on more new debt
than nearly all of the other presidents combined.

The Iran deal made by the previous administration is one of the worst deals
I have ever witnessed.

I have ended the Obama administration`s war on coal.

And we have gotten rid of a lot of really bad pieces that were signed by
President Obama, believe me.

Obamacare is collapsing. It`s dead. It`s gone.

They voted because they believe the lies of President Obama.

I don`t draw red lines. President Obama drew a red line, and I was the one
that made it look a little bit better than it was, but that could have been
done a lot sooner.

They asked me, what about race relations in the United States? Now, I have
to say, they were pretty bad under Barack Obama. That, I can tell you.

You look what happened with Bush, you look what happened with Obama Obama -
- Obama, he didn`t even want to talk about it. But I talk. It`s about
time. Somebody has to do it.

I would like to de-nuke the world. I know that President Obama said global
warming is the biggest threat. I totally disagree.

Barack Obama never said it took place because of radical Islamic


TRUMP: He never said that, right? He doesn`t have to say.

If you look at President Obama and other presidents, most of them didn`t
make calls. A lot of them didn`t make calls. I like to call when it`s

There is another absolutely terrible deal from the previous administration.
See how nice I am? I say the previous administration, as opposed to the
Obama administration.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, we`re back with our guests, Shannon Pettypiece, Dana
Milbank, and Jason Johnson.

This revenge talk against Obama, did it start with that humiliating riff
that the president, former president did on him at the press dinner a
couple years ago, when he made fun of him for being the moderator of that
television show “Apprentice”?


Trump, as I recall, was sitting with “The Washington Post” at the time, and
that was one of his lowest moments. I think it may have something to do
with that.

And in fairness to Trump, previous presidents have always bashed their
predecessor. That part`s not new. The obsession really is. But I think
that`s something in the Trump psyche. He needs to have an opponent to go
against. You could play a similar reel about Hillary Clinton. You
certainly could during the campaign with little Marco and lying Ted and
low-energy Jeb.

But there`s something extra about Obama and…

MATTHEWS: You noticed that you slowed down when you said low-energy Jeb?

MILBANK: Low-energy Jeb.

MATTHEWS: You got into that.

MILBANK: No, but there`s something extra about Obama.


MILBANK: And he benefits – he – the reason he`s president is because of
a backlash to Obama.

And, unfortunately, there is, I believe, a racial component in that that
drives the – everything from the…


MATTHEWS: Well, the base of his base, yes.

You know, Shannon, it seems to me that he keeps Obama in the news. The
president – former president has sort of retired, until very recently. He
hasn`t been out there beating the drum for the Democratic Party or raising
a whole lot of money. He has sort of stepped back, which is the dignified
way to go. But this guy keeps bringing him back.


And for those who like Obama, it, I think, even elevates Obama and the
importance of his eight years and how much they like him. I think it makes
them rally around Obama more.

But for those who dislike Obama, which there is a large, you know,
percentage of this country that comprise Trump`s base, I think he knew
there was a lot of dissatisfaction among people with Obama, and I think
that`s what he has tried to tap into.

They really like his attacks on Obama.

MATTHEWS: You know, Jason, I hate to throw this at you, but I will. It
just seems like he only plays to the whites.

JOHNSON: Well, yes.

MATTHEWS: And like it`s with the…


MATTHEWS: No, I meant it, whether it`s immigrant people generally or it`s
from below the border or it`s Latinos or it`s Muslims generally.

In fact, when he says Muslims, that audience applauds because how much they
don`t like Muslims, period, just because of who they are.

JOHNSON: Oh, yes. Yes.

MATTHEWS: And then, of course, African-Americans with this.

I always thought the birtherism thing was to build the first 20 percent of
his coalition and then build on the hating of Mexicans and then hating of


MATTHEWS: And you add up to the high 30s. It was pretty much confected
that way, like a big cake, right?


I mean, his loathing, I mean, it`s a multilayered cake with lots of white
slices and maybe some brown ones at the top.



MATTHEWS: So, this is…


JOHNSON: But here`s the thing. His antipathy towards Obama…

MATTHEWS: Angel food.

JOHNSON: Yes, exactly.


JOHNSON: He`s angry at Obama for not just being successful, for not just
being popular, but for being a successful black guy.


JOHNSON: And part of that is an anathema to how Trump sees himself.

But I also think this. And this is really key. The more he goes after
Obama – was it just last week “SNL” does a sketch, Barack, we want you
back. It`s “Star Wars.” If you strike me down, I will come back more

The fact that he keeps talking about Obama just aggrandizes what Obama did.
And he makes the president more powerful, former president, more powerful
every time he talks about them.

MATTHEWS: What do make of this, Shannon?

PETTYPIECE: I do agree that there are racial tensions underneath all this
Obama attacking. And maybe he doesn`t even intend it to be that way.
Maybe Trump doesn`t even intend it to be that way, but it is perceived that
way, and certainly by the alt-right, by racist elements in the country.

They perceive it to be about race. Same thing with the attacks, the
persistent attacks, on black athletes.


MATTHEWS: Yes, I forgot, the take-the-knee guys.


MATTHEWS: Making it into SOBs, to call them – you can say, I disagree
with them. It`s a good argument on both sides.

I can see the argument. Maybe it`s not the proper way to show your anger
about the way blacks have been treated in this country, but to call them
SOBs because they do it, that`s their kind of patriotism.

PETTYPIECE: Right, or with the UCLA players, sort of talking down…


MATTHEWS: Yes, I know. Well, we`re going to have some fun now.

If those people are deadly serious, you may want to watch something else
for the next few minutes. This is – I`m sorry – this is what he is.

Up next: Just like Fredo Corleone in “The Godfather,” Trump wants us to
know he`s smart. He`s smart, Michael. I`m a smart one.

That`s ahead.

You`re watching HARDBALL.



Another thing that separates President Trump from his predecessors is the
way he talks about his own intellect. Throughout his campaign and his
first year in office, President Trump has made it a point to boast about
his intelligence. Let`s watch a few examples.


great brain, great success.

I went to an Ivy League school. I`m very highly educated. I know words –
I have the best words.

Look, I went to the great Wharton School of Finance. I was very good. I
was a good student and all that stuff.

I was a good student. I always hear about the elite. You know, the elite.
They`re elite? I went to better schools than they did. I was a better
student than they were.

If Putin likes me and if he thinks I`m a good, smart person, which, you
know, I hope he believes it. I hope I am – actually, he`s right. I am
brilliant, you know that, right?

And then they say, is Donald Trump an intellectual? Trust me. I`m like a
smart person.


MATTHEWS: Well, as I mentioned before, Trump`s apparent need to prove his
intelligence is reminiscent of Fredo Corleone who famously insisted that he
was smart. Here he goes, Fredo.


FREDO CORLEONE: I can handle things. I`m smart! Not like everybody says!
Like dumb. I`m smart and I want respect!


MATTHEWS: We`re back with our guests: Shannon Pettypiece, Dana Milbank,
and Jason Johnson.

It would be ludicrous to compare that to anyone else except Donald Trump.
But the fact is, Trump does keep saying it. I know words. I have great

What does that mean? I have great words?

SHANNON PETTYPIECE, REPORTER, BLOOMBERG: I was out doing the departure
when he walks to get on Marine One and he came over this little impromptu
press conference with the reporters and that was one of those moments where
he looked at this big gaggle of reporters around him and said, I`m smart.
You know, I went to good schools. He was still trying to convince us,
like, why don`t you like me? And still trying to seek our approval and
still that guy from queens who wants everyone to like him and wants
everyone to think he`s smart and he`s a big deal.

his brother to an IQ test, as this president did with his own secretary of
state. Can you imagine?

MATTHEWS: Fredo unfortunately is not where you want to end up in the canoe
with the guy behind you as you were saying the Hail Mary and all an
assassination plot. It was terrible.

MILBANK: No, you don`t want to wind up that way.

MATTHEWS: Sad. Anyway, I think to have to claim you`re smart is probably
the first example of your not being smart.

JASON JOHNSON, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Look, when the emperor says, I`m the
emperor, you know the empire is done. Michael Jordan never has to say he`s
the best, right? When you know what you are, you don`t have to say it, and
the fact that he`s constantly talking about the things that he is and the
things that he does when he has nothing to show for it –

MATTHEWS: OK, I`ll give you two examples of bragging at work. First of
all, Babe Ruth. He pointed to center field and hit the ball over the
center field wall, 350 feet. OK, that`s one.

Ready? Muhammad Ali, six rounds. I`m sorry, he would do it. He

This guy doesn`t deliver. It`s all right to brag if you`re actually going
to do it.

JOHNSON: Exactly.

MILBANK: It`s not bragging if you`ve really done it.

MATTHEWS: Who said that? Muhammad Ali.

MILBANK: It was Fredo. Yes.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, though, Trump says he`s smart. It seems like health
care may have outsmarted him. Let`s watch.


TRUMP: I have to tell you, it`s an unbelievably complex subject. Nobody
knew that health care could be so complicated.


MATTHEWS: Hillary Clinton taught us that in the `90s. Hillary waded into
that pool first and saw how deeply confrontational it is, the doctors, the
insurance companies, the pharmaceuticals, everybody`s got their hand in
this thing and everybody wants a bigger piece.

PETTYPIECE: And he`s done a – I mean, there`s been a few moments like
that where he says, listen, this is tough stuff. This is harder than
anyone would have thought. And yes, it is.

MATTHEWS: Except American history should have taught him all of that.

PETTYPIECE: Right, and you had no previous political experience, you never
held a political office. You only knew people in Washington from
fundraisers – yes, it is difficult, and if you acknowledge that, people
might give you an easier time.


MILBANK: You know, the truth is, for somebody who criticizes Trump for all
kinds of things, I don`t think the guy is dumb by any stretch. You don`t
get to this place by being dumb. He`s not aware of a lot of the things
that he needs to do. He`s not versed in the business of governing.

MATTHEWS: For example, name the – name the areas, Dana, you know nothing
about. Come clean.

MILBANK: We could talk movies and sports, I might come up missing, or
Manhattan real estate.

MATTHEWS: I`ll give you hockey. I never grew up. The flyers came to
Philly after I left. I`m sorry. When Versace was killed, I said, who is
he? I had no idea who he was. I know nothing about fashion or design but
I`m allowed to. Anyway, I`m not a designer.

Anyway, Secretary of State Rex Tillerson expressed a different view of
President Trump`s intellect. He called President Trump a moron after a
July 20th meeting at the Pentagon with members of Trump`s national security
team and cabinet officials. That`s according to NBC News, a pretty good

What do you think, Jason? Moron. Overheard the word? I`m going to speak
more on that issue, remember “Saturday Night Live”? I want to talk more on

JOHNSON: I don`t think there was any confusion there. And part of it –
that`s why he`s constantly saying, oh, I feel so smart, oh, I feel so

But I`ll tell you this. Especially when it comes to health care, the
problem – Trump has done some terrible things on race, he`s done some
terrible things on national security, but health care is the single
greatest thing that I don`t just blame him. I blame the whole Republican
Party. You had eight years to have a plan. You had one job. And the fact
that they couldn`t come up with a plan –

MATTHEWS: But the thing, Jason, the great irony is, Obama did their plan.

JOHNSON: Exactly.

MATTHEWS: It was from Heritage Foundation. It was a conservative
approach. It wasn`t single payer. It wasn`t Medicare for all. It was
basically a corporate business solution.

JOHNSON: Exactly.

MATTHEWS: Relying on lots of profits for the insurance world. Lots of –
and pharmaceutical business loved this thing.



PETTYPIECE: And to go back to an earlier point, maybe if he didn`t despise
everything Obama did so much, he could have fixed it, and we have, you
know, better health care system –

MATTHEWS: Why doesn`t he do what we all recognize is right to do and he
doesn`t do it? Why doesn`t he do what we tell him to do?

MILBANK: You know, the best part of that Tillerson thing is he went on and
on about how NBC was reporting on this nonsense but he did not actually
deny that he called the president of the United States a moron.

MATTHEWS: Well, he couldn`t admit it either. There`s another character
from the movies that Trump sometimes takes after. Jimmy Two Times of the
film, “Goodfellas.” We got President Two Times now, and that`s ahead.

This is HARDBALL, where the action is.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

I mentioned before that president Trump reminds me of a character from the
“Goodfellas” movie, Jimmy Two Times. Let`s watch.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jimmy Two Times who got that nickname because he said
everything twice like.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to go get the papers. Get the papers.


MATTHEWS: And here is our own President Two Times.


TRUMP: Chicago is a disaster. It`s a total disaster.

He doesn`t stop. He doesn`t stop.

Our warmest admiration for this ancient culture. It`s an ancient culture
and its customs are ancient.


MATTHEWS: Jason, this is a hot potato. I think it`s street corner English
in all ethnic groups. I`ve heard it before growing up in Philly. I`ve
heard guys – you know, it`s time to get out of here. It`s time to get out
of here. I think it is a – what is it – allocution or something. I
don`t know what you would call it, but it is funny to hear it from a well-
educated president.

JOHNSON: Right, a very smart president. He has the best words. So much
so he has to use them twice or people won`t understand him.

I think it`s a matter – I think it`s a mixture of two things. One, he may
wonder if people are really listening to him, and, two, I don`t know if he
knows what to say. As much as he is, as good at being spontaneous and
quick off the cuff, I think in these formal settings, he`s really anxious
and repeats himself because he doesn`t know the next thing if he`s just not

MILBANK: I think that`s part of it, and there`s something else, too,
because often this happens when he`s on teleprompter. So, he`s reading
words that somebody else wrote for him, probably reading it for the first
time. So he goes blah-blah-blah ancient culture. Oh, yes, ancient
culture, really important.

So, he`s agreeing with the guy who wrote the speech, but, really, he`s just
agreeing with himself.

MATTHEWS: Apparently.


PETTYPIECE: If on the –

MATTHEWS: He`s the president of the United States. We`ve got to keep
reminding ourselves.

PETTYPIECE: It might also be a bit of branding, though, on some of these
things. Points he wants to emphasize. Repeat it. Sometimes you`ve got to
over and over and over repeat it and bang people over the heads. But I
would agree, sometimes on the formal remarks.

I`ve also noticed something else he also where, yes, he`ll be reading from
the teleprompter and it sounds scripted and awkward and he will take a
moment where he pauses, and he`ll throw in a little Trumpian phrase like,
and I tell you, it is going to be like we have never seen before.

MILBANK: Believe me.

PETTYPIECE: You believe me. And then get back into the, you know, kind –
he has to inject a little bit of him into this.

MATTHEWS: Well, the bigger question I raised at the beginning of this
hour, which is this Black Friday, if you will, is the question of how he`s
managed to keep our attention. I mean, every morning he gets up and he
tweets. That`s his technique.

But how does he manage by 6:30 in the morning. I mean, I turned on the TV,
I get in the car and I listen to the latest on Sirius XM, because it`s not
in the papers at that morning. He`s already gotten ahead of the papers.
He has already made news by 6:30 in the morning.

What do we make of this guy`s ability to command our attention? I mean,
you can`t go to an evening in Washington, I`m on one side, on the other
side is probably the same. It`s all about Trump.

We`re saying he only talks about himself. He`s the person that everybody
talks about, Dana. You`re the expert. You`re the satirist. Your column
is fabulous because you`ve got great material and him, too.

MILBANK: I said at the very beginning of this show – great show. This is
a great show, Chris.

MATTHEWS: We picked that up.

MILBANK: We said at the very beginning, the one true thing is it all about

MATTHEWS: But how does he get us in on the story?

MILBANK: He has succeeded in gaining attention, but the whole idea of the
bully pulpit is you use it to advance your agenda. So, he`s got all of
your attention.

MATTHEWS: But I don`t think Jimmy Carter, who I liked – I pay tribute to,
could have kept our attention to 24/7. He`s constantly putting on a
reality show that`s never stopping. When he got elected president in the
Electoral College, he began a four-year reality show 24/7.

JOHNSON: A four to eight-year reality show. I`m old enough to remember
when people complained that Obama gave too many speeches. Remember that?

MATTHEWS: Overexposure.

JOHNSON: He`s overexposed. No, there is no overexposure.

MATTHEWS: For Trump?

JOHNSON: Yes, exactly. He doesn`t have a policy agenda, he has a Trump
agenda and the Trump agenda is to make sure it`s constantly focused on him
between Twitter and our coverage –

MATTHEWS: How does he do it?

JOHNSON: Because he taps into the inexhaustible fuel of American politics,
which is rage.


JOHNSON: Rage or he brings rage out from people who don`t like him.

MATTHEWS: My dad when I was growing up said I could have a 24-hour radio
show. I could have one. But I don`t think it`s arresting this guy – I`m
trying to be novel and interesting and have a point, but it`s something –
it`s closer to his id talking, this thing inside him that has to constantly
be enraged, constantly passionate about being him.

JOHNSON: Exactly.

PETTYPIECE: I don`t think most of us could make this up, you know. Who
would have instinctively thought to go after NFL players, to go after UCLA
basketball players –

MATTHEWS: Call them SOBs.

PETTYPIECE: Right, and to say you should thank the president of China, to
go after this Gold Star woman, wife.

MATTHEWS: I should have left them in jail.

PETTYPIECE: Yes, to go after Gold Star families on Twitter. Most people,
it would have never crossed their mind to go after some of these things.
And so, yes, they are so outside of the realm of anyone`s idea of possible
that we can`t stop.

MATTHEWS: That`s a hell of a list. I don`t care if African-Americans
don`t like me. I don`t care if –

PETTYPIECE: Gold Star families.

MATTHEWS: I don`t care if Hispanics don`t like me. I don`t care if
Muslims don`t like me. I don`t care because I`ve got Scranton, I`ve got
Erie. What`s he talking about?

JOHNSON: There you go. I`ve got central Iowa. Yes.

MILBANK: But this is why they haven`t replaced Obamacare, why we still
don`t have a tax bill or immigration legislation or infrastructure or
anything else, it`s because we keep getting distracted. We`re very
willing, particularly those of us in the media to follow the distractions
he throws out there, and make it all about Donald Trump. But nothing`s

MATTHEWS: But if Hillary were president, we`d be talking about full
funding for Title 20 education programs.

Yes. See –


MATTHEWS: We`d be doing serious business.

Anyway, we`ll be right back after this.


MATTHEWS: I want to thank Shannon Pettypiece and Dana Milbank and Jason

That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.


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