The revolt of the suburbs Transcript 11/9/17 Hardball with Chris Matthews

Julia Ioffe, Howard Fineman; John Feehery; Catherine Rampell

Date: November 9, 2017
Guest: Julia Ioffe, Howard Fineman; John Feehery; Catherine Rampell

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: Trouble in Alabama. Let`s play “Hardball.”

Good evening, I`m Chris Matthews in Washington with an explosive story from

According to “Washington Post” today, a woman has come forward to accuse
Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore of forcing her into a sexual
encounter back in 1979 when she was 14-years-old. Moore is the Steve
Bannon backed insurgent and former chief justice in the Alabama Supreme
Court who refused to remove a monument of Ten Commandments from his
courthouse. He backs criminalizing homosexual conduct and advocate
blocking a Muslim official from becoming a member of Congress.

According to “Washington Post,” Moore met the teenager at a courthouse
where he worked as a district attorney. Moore allegedly offered to watch
the girl while her mother was inside for a child custody hearing. Here is
one of the “Washington Post” reporters who broke the story today, Beth
Reinhard. Let`s listen to her.


BETH REINHARD, REPORTER, WASHINGTON POST: After the mother went in, he got
her phone number and subsequently picked her up around the corner from
house, drove her about 30 minutes away to his home in the woods twice did
that. The first time there was kissing and then the second time he took
off her clothes. He took off his own clothes, he touched her over her bra
and underwear and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear.


MATTHEWS: Well, according to “Washington Post,” three other women
interviewed by the “Washington Post” in recent weeks say Moore pursued tell
when they were between the ages of 16 and 18 and he was in his early 30s.
None of the women say that Moore forced them into any sort of relationship
or sexual conduct. Moore called the story completely false and desperate
and a desperate political attack. His campaign said in a statement, Judge
Roy Moore has endured the most outlandish attacks on any candidate in the
modern political arena. But this story in today`s “Washington Post”
alleging sexual impropriety takes the cake. The “Post” insists none of the
women sought them out and were all initially reluctant to speak.

On Capitol Hill the speed of response from Republican senators was


SEN. LUTHER STRANGE (R), ALABAMA: It`s very, very disturb what I read
about. I will have more to say after I learn more.


SEN. BOB CORKER (R), TENNESSEE: Obviously, from what I have heard about I
am disturbed and it`s very serious.


MATTHEWS: Well, Senator John McCain said in a statement, the allegations
against Roy Moore are deeply disturbing and disqualifying. He should
immediately step aside and allow the people of Alabama to elect a candidate
they can be proud of. Here`s majority leader Mitch McConnell.


SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R), MAJORITY LEADER: If these allegations are true,
Roy Moore should step aside for all the obvious reasons. They are very
disturbing allegations.


MATTHEWS: Well, those sentiments there were echoed by at least ten other
Republican senators.

The special election by the way is just 33 days away from now. If Moore
does step aside, Alabama law says his name would remain on the ballot.
Republicans could attempt to mount a legal challenge to remove it. But
absentee ballots have been mailed out.

I am joined right now by Catherine Rampell, “Washington Post” columnist,
NBC`s Kasie Hunt, Republican strategist John Feehery and the “Huffington
Post” global editorial director Howard Fineman.

Well, this is an area of politics. I want to start with Kasie.

This story has certainly got a quick response from Republican senators.
They do not act like they like what they heard here. Their initial
response it sounds to me go away.

KASIE HUNT, MSNBC HOST, KASIE DC: I think that they already felt that was
a little bit about Roy Moore even if they couldn`t say it in public. This
is not somebody who you ticked through some of his other views that they
were excited about having him as a number of their conference, but they
have come around to accepting it. I think that the speed and straight
forwardness with which they have rejected Roy Moore based on the
allegations in this story is remarkable. And I think it is a reflection of
the cultural moment and the cultural change that we are going through right

I do think it is about more than just the politics of Roy Moore and the
fact that, you know, they found him to be objectionable. I think they
found this something that cannot stand. And I think there is an instinct
now to believe the woman who is coming forward with these charges.

MATTHEWS: There are 51 now.

HUNT: And that is a new phenomenon. I mean, you know, I covered Capitol
Hill for years. This is something that you know there are people that you
know you say, it was a bad idea to get into an elevator with Strom Thurman.
That was the thing if you are a woman on the Hill, you knew, but you never
talked about it.

[19:05:04] MATTHEWS: It is a word of mouth.

HUNT: So that it seems like we heard from Beth a little bit reporting
this, they went down there, and that`s what they heard. They heard women
talking about things Roy Moore did. And they didn`t feel before that they
could talk about it. But that`s all changed now for sure.

MATTHEWS: Yes. It wasn`t, it seems the “Washington Post” said these women
did not come forward, but they answered the question, John Feehery.

JOHN FEEHERY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, it seems like a pretty credible
story. I mean, Kasie is exactly right. The Republicans were not that
excited about Roy Moore.

MATTHEWS: He was to tattering.

FEEHERY: He was a bad candidate before this started, although the polls
have him up. And this is also - there is a difference between Washington
and Alabama. I think a lot of people in Alabama still support Roy Moore.
If these allegations continue, I think he will probably lose, but he will
not resign.

MATTHEWS: Is that the times we live in, no matter what the charge, no
matter how true it is, it`s still whose side are you on? It still comes
down to the political polarization, if this were said about a Democrat,
these people would be jumping out and sending the guy to hell. I mean,
this is like the end of the earth for them. But if it`s one of their guys,
they don`t want to hear it. Do you agree?

FEEHERY: Well, I think there is an element to that. I think Roy Moore is
a pretty well-known quantity. He has been there for a long time. Been in
the public square a long time. But I also think that, you know, they don`t
believe the media. And I think that`s another part of it.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let me go to Howard. This gets to the point of the counter
charge. It was just more a countercharge by the Moore people. They are
saying is that the dam “Washington Post,” it is Jeff Bezos has got a
vendetta. Though I never knew Bezos is bunch of a politics anyway, the go
get their guy.

would not assume that Roy Moore is a goner here. First of all his name is
on the ballot. It gets to stay on the ballot regardless.

MATTHEWS: Do you think he post “Access Hollywood?” No?

FINEMAN: Alabama law. We are in the post-Harvey Weinstein era.


FINEMAN: But we are also in post-Trump era. Meaning that for the people
who are going to be for Roy Moore, I think they are going to stick with Roy
Moore for the most part. The Alabama Republican electorate is more than
half self-identified evangelicals to begin with. And –.

HUNT: And actually, there is a brewing, Howard, I think that`s an
excellent point. There is seemingly a divide emerging. It`s still early,
but Republican Party officials in Alabama seem to be standing in some cases
by Roy Moore. But there are evangelical leaders who have already –

FINEMAN: That`s what it will take.

HUNT: This is not acceptable.

FINEMAN: I think that`s what it`s going to take, Chris.

HUNT: Not morally acceptable.

FINEMAN: Breitbart is going to stick with Roy More. Steve Bannon is going
to stick with Roy Moore. Maybe a majority of the Alabama –

CATHERINE RAMPELL, THE WASHINGTON POST: I`m not even convince that the
condemnations from senators in Washington will necessarily stick.


RAMPELL: You mentioned “Access Hollywood.” A little over a year ago,
there was severe condemnation from senators, from congressmen, people
saying that Donald Trump should drop out. Chaffetz said he couldn`t look
his daughter in the eyes and continue to support the Republican candidate.
And then a couple weeks passed and they went right back to supporting the
Republican candidate.

So I would imagine or at least I am nervous that despite these harsh words
today that if these Republicans on the hill see that this story blows over
in a few days, that Republican voters don`t actually believe the fake
media, you know, that they think this is made up. Then they will move on
and they will say, you know what, never mind, we are standing by our man.

FINEMAN: You know, Chris, Mitch McConnell has a tough situation here. He
came right out and said if true he has got to go. On the other hand, if
they offer a write-in candidate against Roy Moore, it`s possible that that
would enhance the chances of a Democrat winning. Mitch McConnell wants to
keep a majority.

MATTHEWS: (INAUDIBLE) on the Hill all the time. I see if the Roy Rogers
statue all the time. You walk among these guys and women these all the
time. And we are all I think pretty far distanced from him being a
northern. But the evangelical pulpit, well, they can teach one thing,
preach one thing on Sunday and something different on Tuesday when it comes
time to vote?

HUNT: Chris, I think this is about a child, right. This is about a 14-
year-old girl. This makes it different than some of the other allegations,
you know, for better or for worse. And I think that that`s something that
was immediately recognizable to all of the Republicans, certainly that I
talked to now. Now the question is going to ultimately be, does he – if
he doesn`t withdraw from the ballot, what do they do? Is there a mechanism
in the Senate? I need to do some research on this. Could they refuse to
seat him or something along those lines? So I do think Howard`s right that
it`s not the end.


FINEMAN: The law is the – the law is if he were to stay on the ballot and
if her were to win the secretary of state of Alabama has the power to
declare it null and void. So there still is a chance in Alabama
technically for him to be knocked off after the election ironically.

HUNT: And that is going to be the question for these Republicans in
Congress. Is do they push for those things? Do they push to actually take
an action?

MATTHEWS: You know, you have through this with your boss, (INAUDIBLE).
And these things are so long ago. And you are almost living in a different
universe with the guy you work for. I understand it. I`m with you on this
because you are innocent as hell. Innocent hell isn`t the right phrase for
it. But you worked for Dennis Hastert. It turns out that in all these
things he behaved, his sexual misbehavior with young boys under his control
as a wrestling coach. So many decades ago. And then it pops out, guys who
have probably known this guy, and I don`t think he ever talked about it
with anybody he knew, so in other words, this is surprise information I
think. This is not somebody like, a California guy, what`s his name,
Harvey Weinstein? People know about him and know about his behavior. This
is behavior that was unknown to all of this power center, all his political
associates, always fellow people in the judgeship, in the court, on the
bench, and all of a sudden it comes out to this horrible thing with a 14-
year-old. It is just - I don`t know what to say –.

[19:10:46] RAMPELL: Wait. Wait. Wait.

MATTHEWS: Go ahead, Catherine.

RAMPELL: Was this really unknown? I mean, the way that my “Post”
colleagues found out about this was that –.

MATTHEWS: Tell me. You are reporting. I don`t know. Go ahead.

RAMPELL: Look. I didn`t write the story. But in the story, itself, the
reporters actually say that they found these women because they had heard
rumors that Moore had dated teenage girls, decades ago. So if they were
hearing rumors just by doing you know on the ground shoe leather reporting,
I am not ultimately convinced this was not an open secret. We just don`t
know at this point.

MATTHEWS: Catherine, we are talking four decades and these are all – go
ahead, Howard.

FINEMAN: To agree with Kasie, and the Harvey Weinstein thing changed.
That`s a month ago. That changed the atmosphere not only in Hollywood but
in politics. I think some of the – I don`t know the timeline of the
“Post” reporting. But I`m guessing that some of those – it`s possible
that some of those women who kept quiet all these years decided in this new
era, you know, we are going to come forth here. I don`t really know the

HUNT: And there were three women by lines on that “Washington Post” story.
And that is something, you know, with respect to (INAUDIBLE) of the “New
Yorker” who has done some very good work on this topic as well. But “New
York Time`s” reporters were women. These “Post” reporters were women.
There is something different. This is something that women – we talk
about in the work place all the time.

MATTHEWS: To Catherine`s point, was this bubbling around his career this
whole time for all these decades?

HUNT: My guess is, I mean, look, I didn`t report the story. I don`t know
the specific circumstances. But I do know that as a woman who has been in
the professional workforce the last ten years, this is something that women
talk about amongst themselves openly all the time. We never before this
last month thought anybody would care.

MATTHEWS: I wonder about the evangelical thing. And you are the only one
has talked about it. But Howard, everybody has blown away.

FINEMAN: I`m not blown away.

MATTHEWS: Here is a guy talking about the ten commandment. He is a guy
railing against homosexuals or open homophobe. And all this is consistent
with very concerned religious beliefs. I understand complete beliefs. I
understand. When this pops up, how do they put that in conflict?

FINEMAN: Well, they did it with Donald Trump. Donald Trump got the
highest percentage of evangelical votes I think that anybody has gotten on
the Republican side, after everybody in the main stream media, all the
media practically, declared he was a goner after the “”Access Hollywood””
thing. It didn`t happen. The want, the evangelicals I know from having
live in Kentucky and cover the south, they want somebody to fight for them.
And they will overlook a lot. The question is whether as Kasie asks, are
they going to overlook this? And I think the answer in Alabama may be yes.

MATTHEWS: I want to go - I`m going to leave you out of this one because
you are a straight reporter. I meant, John, is he going to survive this?
Is he going to be elected senator for Alabama?

FEEHERY: I don`t think so. I think the most interesting thing though is
what happens – the Republicans are already throwing shade on Steve Bannon.

MATTHEWS: You are so moderate with your language, throwing shade. That is
so –.


FINEMAN: First of all, they hate Bannon. Moore was Bannon`s guy.

FEEHERY: That`s my point.

MATTHEWS: Will they elect Moore?

FINEMAN: I wouldn`t say it`s impossible. I would not say that at all.

MATTHEWS: Catherine, you have a view on this. Do you think this is about
to go all the way of these horror stories? I mean, I thought when Trump
said we have to punish women for abortion and he said that horrible stuff
on the bus with Billy Bush. I kept saying like everybody, he is gone, he
is gone. And it never seemed to be he is gone. He had nine lives at
least. Is this guy got another life?

RAMPELL: Well the thing that Trump had going for him was the Supreme
Court, right. That there were a lot of evangelical voters who were
attached to Trump.
MATTHEWS: That`s true.

RAMPELL: They were attached to Trump because they thought he was going to
put a pro-life person on the court, which ultimately looks like he did.
Roy Moore does not necessarily have that same card to play. But again, I
do wonder if given our polarized climate, given skepticism of the main
stream media, if a lot of the voters in Alabama will say, you know what?
Roy Moore says this is fake news, Breitbart says this is fake news, it must
have been fake news, and they just won`t believe it. It`s not so much that
they will say it doesn`t matter. They will say, well, maybe it`s not
really true. It happened a long time ago. And this is, you know, a smear
campaign from the Democrat party as a number of people said.

MATTHEWS: Kasie, I want to close it. Is there any chance of the mere
mechanics, of the difficulties almost impossible that getting his name off
the ballot at this point, 33 days out might save him?

HUNT: It could. And I think the question is what do Democrats do now?
Because Democrats have not been going all in for Doug Jones, the Democrat
who has been running down there, despite some people - look, Tim Kaine has
been a long-time supporter of him. He has been trying to convince his
colleagues to spend money there. I think Democrats might take a look at
this and say, you know what? This is actually winnable seat. I think
right now that`s really the only guarantee that Roy Moore doesn`t end up in
the U.S. Senate, right, is if the Democrat defeats him.

[19:15:21] MATTHEWS: I think it`s a (INAUDIBLE) here, it is a wave here, a
Democrat can win down there, most assured.

Anyway, thank you Catherine Rampell. And thank Kasie Hunt, John Feehery
and Howard Fineman.

Coming up, an NBC News exclusive on that Russian investigation. The
President`s former body guard is shedding new light to his Trump`s to
Moscow four years ago. He says that during a Miss Universe pageant in
2013, a Russian participant offered to send five women, you hear that, send
five women to Trump`s hotel room. The body guard said he turned the offer

Plus, Tuesday`s thrashing at the polls exposed a major vulnerability for
Republicans. They are losing suburban voters. Should they go all in
Trump`s agenda as Steve Bannon says or should they do whatever they can to
distance themselves from Trump?

And the “Hardball” roundtable is here with more on our breaking story
tonight. The “Washington Post” report about Alabama senate candidate Roy
Moore and allegations of a sexual misconduct with a 14-year-old girl. Will
this bombshell force him to step aside before next month`s special

Finally, let me finish tonight with my upcoming tour of the west coast.

This is “Hardball” where the action is.


[19:17:37] MATTHEWS: President Trump is wrapping up his final day in China
before heading off to an economic summit in Vietnam. In an event earlier
today, trump heaped praise on the Chinese president refusing to criticize
him for taking advantage of a trade imbalance between our countries. Let`s


is a very one-sided and unfair one, but, but, I don`t blame China. After
all, who can blame a country for being able to take advantage of another
country for the benefit of its citizens? I give China great credit. But
in actuality, I do blame past administrations for allowing this out of
control trade deficit to take place and to grow.


MATTHEWS: Well, President Trump just defended those remarks on twitter
saying, I don`t blame China. I blame the incompetence of past
administrations. How can you blame China for taking advantage of people
that had no clue? I would have done the same.

Those comments are a departure from Trump`s tough talk as a presidential
candidate. By the way, let`s listen to that talk back in the old days.


TRUMP: China, which has been ring us off, the greatest abuser in the
history of this country, China has been ripping us, and I have many friends
in China. They agree we me 100 percent. They can`t imagine. They can`t
even believe that they can get away with what`s happening.

I will direct my secretary of the treasury to label China a currency
manipulator, they are. They know it.

We can`t continue to allow China to rape our country and that`s what they
are doing. It`s the greatest theft in the history of the world.


MATTHEWS: OK. We will be right back into that.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

In an interview with the House Intelligence Committee Tuesday, President
Trump`s longtime former bodyguard Keith Schiller offered some previously
unreported details about Trump`s time in Moscow four years ago.

NBC News is now reporting that Schiller told the committee that after a
business meeting before the Miss Universe Pageant in 2013, a Russian
participant offered to – quote – “send five women” – that was in quotes
– “send five women” – to Donald Trump`s hotel room in Moscow.

That`s according to three sources who were present fort interview.

Well, Schiller said he turned down the offer on Trump`s behalf. Two of the
sources said Schiller viewed the offer as a joke and immediately responded,
“We don`t do that type of stuff.”

Well, the subject arose as congressional special investigators attempt to
verify some of the unsubstantiated allegations contained in that dossier,
that dossier compiled by former British intelligence officer Christopher

Well, Schiller`s attorney said in a statement that: “The versions of Mr.
Schiller`s testimony being leaked to the press are blatantly false and
misleading. We are appalled by the leaks that are coming from partisan
insiders from the House Intelligence Committee.”

Well, a White House lawyer also told NBC that: “The White House and fair-
minded people are pleased that Mr. Schiller was able to debunk yet another
of the false claims in that fantasy dossier funded by the DNC and Clinton

I am joined now by the authors of that report.

Ken Dilanian and Jonathan Allen are both with NBC News. And Julia Ioffe is
staff writer at “The Atlantic.”

Let me start with that.

What is the advantage in us knowing that some character in Russia told
Keith Miller (sic) that he had some women to bring over to Trump`s hotel
room? What does that tell us? And he turned it down.

all, he is refuting under oath the more salacious claims in the dossier
that Trump was actually cavorting with prostitutes at that hotel. So, that
is important.


DILANIAN: But it`s also important that the idea of prostitutes or women
was floated to Schiller, and he is admitting that under oath.


MATTHEWS: But how does that make Trump look guilty? If we knew nothing
else about Trump, why would we that was somehow an occasion of sin, as we

DILANIAN: Well, some people would say you can`t imagine this offer being
made to Barack Obama or George W. Bush.

MATTHEWS: But isn`t it made to just about every American businessperson
that goes to Russia? From what I hear, isn`t it?



MATTHEWS: I heard a guy that said that somebody calls you from downstairs
in one of these fancy hotels over there, an American business guy, and he
said, somebody with a nice voice says, hi, my name is Svetlana or whatever.
I would like to come up.

And you have to say no. It`s coming at you.

IOFFE: Yes, that`s right.

And I think – and what`s important to understand is, he`s not there as
Barack Obama or George W. Bush would have been, right? He was there as a
private businessman. And business in Moscow, in Russia is done often in a
bath house in the presence of prostitutes.

MATTHEWS: It`s sleazy.

IOFFE: In some ways, I see it as like local hospitality.

MATTHEWS: You are laughing, but you mean that. You don`t mean that? Do
they consider that courteous behavior to offer women to visiting business -
- or do they use it as a chance? I always thought they used them for
blackmail to get pictures of it.

IOFFE: Not mutually exclusive. Not mutually exclusive. So, basically,


MATTHEWS: How can it be mutually exclusive?

IOFFE: I`ll tell you.

MATTHEWS: If you are out to blackmail somebody, that`s not a courtesy.
That`s like, would you like a drink?

IOFFE: I don`t think you`re necessarily out – the way it works in Russia
is, you are not necessarily out to blackmail anybody,.

You are just collecting stuff for a rainy day, and keeping it on file. And
the way business works in Russia is, everybody is guilty of everything all
the time, because, for example, the way business laws and tax laws and fire
codes are written, that laws are all in conflict with each other, so
everybody is in violation of some law at any point.

And the law can be used selectively against them. And this is just one of
those things.

MATTHEWS: Jonathan, your view? You hear about the value of knowing that
the testimony was made by Keith Miller (sic), his bodyguard, that he, I
don`t know what – under what circumstance he admitted it, but he admitted
that they were offered five women.

They didn`t say prostitutes. The implication was, I guess. But what do
you make of it all? Because it does sort of bring to most people`s head to
– right to the dossier and their image of the two women in the room, you
know, claimed in the dossier by Christopher Steele. It all comes together
in their minds.


And so I think you what have got here and the importance of this is…

MATTHEWS: Kurt (sic) Schiller. Kurt (sic) Schiller. I keep thinking of
the football players or whatever – Keith Schiller.

DILANIAN: Keith Schiller.

MATTHEWS: Keith Schiller.

ALLEN: I think the importance here is that you have got some confirmation
of some of what was in the dossier. And those who want to believe that the
tape is out there of this…


MATTHEWS: Does this honestly do that, though?

ALLEN: I`m sorry?

MATTHEWS: Does this do that?

ALLEN: No, it does not.

MATTHEWS: Does this suggests it`s true?

ALLEN: It does not.

What it does is, it has the guy closest to Donald Trump saying it`s not
true, but also saying that he left Donald Trump in his hotel room that
night, that he didn`t stay with him. Of course, nobody would expect his
bodyguard to stay with him all night.

And then – but the other piece of this is…

MATTHEWS: Two beds, please. You don`t have the bodyguard hanging in the
room all night.

In January, President Trump pushed back against the salacious allegations
contained in that dossier, saying he was very careful during his stay in
Moscow, because he knew that anything he did there could be used to
embarrass him. Let`s watch Trump talking about what he knew was up.


QUESTION: Make clear whether during your visits to either Moscow or St.
Petersburg, you engaged in conduct that you now regret and that a


QUESTION: Would a reasonable observer say that you are potentially
vulnerable to blackmail by Russia or by its intelligence agencies?


When I leave our country, I`m a very high-profile person, would you say? I
am extremely careful. I`m surrounded by bodyguards. I`m surrounded by

And I always tell them – anywhere, but I always tell them if I`m leaving
this country, be very careful, because in your hotel rooms, and no matter
where you go, you`re going to probably have cameras.

I am extremely careful. I`m surrounded by bodyguards. I`m surrounded by

And I always tell them – anywhere, but I always tell them if I`m leaving
this country, be very careful, because in your hotel rooms, and no matter
where you go, you`re going to probably have cameras.

Does anyone really believe that story?

I`m also very much of a germaphobe, by the way, believe me.




Julia, put that together. Let`s start – forget the germaphobe part.
Let`s go the part we can imagine. He is a smart guy about people in a
competitive business environment, where they will use anything against the
other side to get a better deal.

Is he right here?

IOFFE: Well, first of all, he said this after he was already briefed on
the dossier. So, it`s very easy for him to then say, well, of course I
knew that they would have been taping me in a hotel room, whether he did or
not. The other thing is…

MATTHEWS: But you said that was normal business, that kind of stuff.

IOFFE: Sure. Sure.


ALLEN: And Donald Trump is a hotel owner.

IOFFE: Wait. Wait.

Can I just say, why do we think that Donald Trump is blackmailable, even if
there is a tape of this? There already has been a tape. It was the
“Access Hollywood” tape where he grabbed about by grabbing women by their
genitals. And not only did he not resign or step down from the race. He
won the presidency.

So, if I`m an FSB agent, in Moscow, I`m saying, if I have a tape, I`m going
to be like, ah, this is useless.

DILANIAN: To expand on your point, Chris, the hotel, the Ritz-Carlton in
Moscow, is notorious as an FSB honey trap.

And so – and I was told by sources that Keith Schiller made it clear to
the committee that he was aware of that and that Donald Trump was aware of

And that`s one of the reasons he said that he didn`t believe this story was
true. But it`s also the case, as Jonathan was saying, that Democrats were
drilling down on him. Well, sir, at some point, you went to bed, and you
can`t tell us what happened after that in Donald Trump`s hotel room.


MATTHEWS: Yes, but innocent until proven guilty.

Let me tell you, Trump is business wise, and he doesn`t drink. There is no
reason to believe that he would put himself – Jonathan, what do you think
here? Is it credible to believe that he`s stupid enough to create porn
movies for his enemies? Is he stupid enough to do that?

ALLEN: Is it credible that it`s – yes, it`s credible that anybody might
do that.

But, at the same time, we don`t have any evidence of it.

MATTHEWS: I normally don`t buy the guy`s act at all. But I think, in this
case, he`s not that stupid.

I wouldn`t even say anybody – well, I don`t know.

Thank you very much. It`s great to have – Julia is as sophisticated as
hell on this stuff. And you guys are too. I have got the expert team
here. I don`t know if you want to be too expert on this stuff.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, Ken Dilanian, Jonathan Allen, and Julia Ioffe.

MATTHEWS: Up next: Tuesday`s election, that was just a couple days ago,
exposed a weakness in the Republicans, don`t you think? They are losing
ground with suburban voters. Is that solution to that problem more Trump?
I don`t think so. How about less?

This is HARDBALL, where the action is.


Rehberger. Here`s what`s happening.

The man accused of attacking Senator Rand Paul has pleaded not guilty to
misdemeanor assault charges. This happened in a Kentucky courtroom. Rene
Boucher is accused of tackling the U.S. senator while he was out mowing his

Five police officers who responded to a shooting at a Republican baseball
practice have been awarded the U.S. Capitol Police Medal of Honor. Five
people were injured in that June attack, including House Majority Whip
Steve Scalise.

A cold front from Canada is bringing arctic temperatures from the Midwest
to the Northeast. A cold blast will send temperatures plunging over the
next few days – back to HARDBALL.

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

With Tuesday`s election here in Virginia especially proved the Trump
playbook was fatal for Republican Ed Gillespie. It also exposed a major
vulnerability for Republicans and President Trump ahead of the 2018
congressional midterms, their appeal among or non-appeal among suburban

“The New York Times” writes: “The American suburbs appear to be in revolt
against Donald Trump.”

Democrat Ralph Northam defeated Gillespie`s in Northern Virginia`s vote-
rich Washington suburbs by 20 points or more, even exceeding Barack Obama
and Hillary Clinton`s victims in the region.

“The Washington Post” writes Trump`s loss is a canary in the coal mine for
Republicans. And veteran strategist Mike Murphy, no fan of this president,
told the paper: “Donald Trump the an anchor for the GOP. We got that
message in loud volume in Virginia. The canary in the coal mine did not
just pass out. Its head exploded.”

But former White House strategist Steve Bannon said Ed Gillespie`s problem
was that he wasn`t fully on board with Trump. Let`s listen to him.


the Gillespie campaign, it just shows you is, you can`t fake the Trump

You have to go all in. And this agenda is a winning agenda. Do not
believe the opposition party. Do not believe the fake news and fake media.
This agenda is what America needs now and what America needs to rebuild its
future. And it`s a winning ticket.


MATTHEWS: For more, I am joined right now by James Peterson. He`s MSNBC
contributor and host of “The Remix” on WHYY.

Thank you so much, James

You live in Drexel Hill. My cousins grew up in Drexel Hill. We were
always there, at St. Dorothy`s. We know that neighborhood very well.

That is the inner suburbs. It`s not fancy. It`s just suburbs. What do
you think happened out there Tuesday in Delaware County?

JAMES PETERSON, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think there was a lot of
activity in my polling place, a lot of excitement and a lot of energy
around this election.

And you know this already, Chris. I live in the kind of neighborhood where
the candidates come door to door and talk to folks. And we always say all
politics is local. And, Chris, all politics are local, but this is a
moment where national politics are really shaping people`s inspiration to
come out and vote.

And so people are responding to Trumpism in this particular election. But
you also know Pennsylvania is like a truly purple state, right? We say
it`s red sometimes and usually we say it`s blue. But the reality is, it`s
one of these purple states. Like, it`s really one of these states where
Republicans live next door to Democrats.

There`s a lot of independents. Independents make decisions based upon how
they see things happening both at a local level, but at also at the
national level. And at the national level, Trumpism is a disaster for many
sort of suburban, you know, just regular folks who work hard, want to see a
president who can conduct himself a certain way.

MATTHEWS: I agree with you.

PETERSON: And so I think that`s the response we are seeing this week.

MATTHEWS: I like to say about Pennsylvania, my birth state, is a real
state. Real people. Nothing fancy. It`s a mix of everything.

But wouldn`t it be a good idea, do you think, for the Democrats – it`s not
our job to advice them, but if they can pick a candidate next time around
who looks good in Pennsylvania in all the polling, I would say that would
be a pretty good prospect for 2020, somebody that can clearly win
Pennsylvania, none of this margin of error crap, but clearly win, they have
got a winner for the country?

PETERSON: I would agree with you, Chris.

Pennsylvania is really indicative in terms of presidential politics, right?
As Pennsylvania goes, almost like Ohio, as Pennsylvania goes, so does the
presidency. But because of the complexity of the state, the cities, the
suburbs, the rural areas, the highly densely populated places like
Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, and the more rural areas like in the center of
the state, it can be an indicative sort of space for people to think about
politics going forward.

MATTHEWS: Let`s talk about the suburbs.

Why would a place like Delaware County of Bucks County or Montgomery, any
of the nice suburbs around the big cities, like Chicago, Philadelphia and
New York, why would they be more likely to depart, basically unhook
themselves from Trump, than the more tougher old neighborhoods like
Johnstown, Pennsylvania, or Erie, or Scranton?

They seem to be sticking, from what we have seen. Why would the suburbs be
the first to leave Trump as they seem to have done this week?

PETERSON: Yes, I think some of this is a return to form, Chris, more than
a revolt, right, because these are the same suburbs that came out strong
for Obama.

There was some depression in these suburbs when it came for Hillary
Clinton`s campaign. And that`s just around a lot of the complexities of
that particular political moment.

But these are folks who also are paying attention to national politics.
They`re seeing how this president is sort of prosecuting the Trumpism
agenda. They`re not seeing what the payoff is for these local communities
around that kind of Trumpism.

This is a pretty diverse area, Chris. This is an area that is not going to
be sort of anti-immigration. This is an area that understands both the
rationale for law enforcement, but also the challenges around law

So a lot of the Trumpism sort of go-to issues don`t play as well in the
suburbs of Pennsylvania.

MATTHEWS: Well, House Speaker Paul Ryan was asked if Republicans face a
choice between the policies of President George W. Bush or those of
President Trump. Here he is, Paul Ryan.


QUESTION: Is it going to be a choice for Republicans Bush or Trump?

REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We already made that choice.
We`re with Trump. We already made that choice.

That`s a choice we made in the beginning of the year. That`s a choice we
made during the campaign, which is, we merged our agendas. We ran on a
joint agenda with Donald Trump. We got together with Donald Trump when he
was president-elect Trump and walked through what is it we want to
accomplish in the next two years.

We all agreed on that agenda. We`re processing that agenda.


MATTHEWS: You know, James, He sounds like Lionel Richie in an old Pepsi

(singing): We made our choice.

I mean, that`s idiot talk.


MATTHEWS: Of course, no choice is permanent. You got to keep thinking,
Mr. Speaker. You got to think and watch and judge the performance of this
president, and not act like, you know, you are not – you`re a nonthinking

Your thoughts, James.

PETERSON: Yes. And it doesn`t seem accurate. It doesn`t seem accurate,
Chris, because at the end of the day, they weren`t lock-step with Trump.
They were never Trumpers. Throughout the whole process that Speaker Ryan
is talking about, they were Republicans who are very, very resistant, right
from the beginning and during the campaign, during the president-elect

There are certain things that Speaker Ryan wants to get out of a Trump
presidency. And I think he is looking at tax reform or tax cuts as one of
the ways to do that. But I also sense of sort of a hint of regret, even in
that statement that he just made. But also, it`s not accurate, Chris.
There are plenty of Republicans who`ve been resisting Trump throughout the
whole process.

MATTHEWS: I think he`s worried about the Freedom Caucus, you know, what
you call, whatever they are, the Tea Party crowd, that they`re calling
themselves that, he`s worried about them because they cashiered his
predecessor rather quickly. That was John Boehner. Good-bye, John, so he
doesn`t want to be said good-bye to. That`s what I think.

Anyway, James Peterson, thanks so much from Jackson Hill, Pennsylvania.

Up next, the HARDBALL roundtable weighs on the top stories of the evening,
the bombshell allegations against Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore, and
reporting from NBC News that a Russian participant offered to send five
women to Donald Trump`s hotel room in Moscow during the Miss Universe
contest and were returned back.

You are watching HARDBALL.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

We continue to follow two major stories out of Washington today. First,
“The Washington Post” report today about allegations of sexual misconduct
against Alabama Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore, allegations which he

Plus, NBC News is reporting Donald Trump`s long-time bodyguard Keith
Schiller told Congress that before the Miss Universe pageant in 2013, he
rejected a Russian offer to send five women, that was the phrase, send five
women to Donald Trump`s hotel room in Moscow.

For more on those stories, I`m joined by the HARDBALL roundtable, and what
a roundtable it is.

Nancy Cook, reporter for “Politico”. Eugene Scott, reporter for “The
Washington Post”. And Dana Milbank, columnist for “The Washington Post”.

So, let`s see, does anything really matter the way it used to matter? Is
it people used to say, well, conservative, cultural conservative,
religious, don`t like misbehavior by politicians. That used to be a
reasonable category. But after Trump, you know, oh, Trump got the best
evangelical vote in the history based upon his lifestyle. What are we
talking about?

There are so many socio metric overlays and craziness today, you are
looking at me, and I want to look, that look, of what the hell is going on
in terms of how people vote?

no, none of those things you just mentioned matters. It`s all about
partisanship and tribalism. It`s what team you`re on. It`s like, he`s our
guy, it doesn`t matter what he did.

You can already hear the Republican senators getting ready to tip-toe away,
not from Roy Moore but from the denunciations that –

MATTHEWS: Well, Monica Lewinsky was not 14. She was young, way too young.
But the people on the right said this is the worst sin on the history of
the presidency, right?

MILBANK: It doesn`t matter. That`s why “Access Hollywood” doesn`t matter.
He`s on their team. They`re already saying, if true, how – what are they
looking for, a videotaped everyday and DNA from 1979? They`re giving
themselves leeway to pull back from this because it`s more important –

MATTHEWS: John McCain making your point, it`s about politics. John McCain
did not wait. He said, get him out of there.

did not. And he hasn`t waited previously in attacking things that he feels
are affiliated with the Trumpism and dangerous for America.

I think what`s really been interesting is the number of Republican
lawmakers who have come out for the first time against Roy Moore in this
conversation. Roy Moore has said lots of things and done lots of things
that people should have spoken out against. This one right now for many of
them was the last straw.

MATTHEWS: Well, one thing is that this guy is tottering. There is a chance
he could lose.

NANCY COOK, REPORTER, POLITICO: There sure is. But also, the thing is, is
that this is so much a crisis in the GOP`s own making. They decide, a
bunch of Republicans decided to back him, despite a bunch of controversial
statements he made, you know, they are throwing their weight behind him.
And Steve Bannon has.

And even with this Russia stuff, this is a real overhang over the Trump
administration and the fact of the matter is, the Republicans control
Congress, Trump controls the White House, and this is some of what they
have to show for it.

MATTHEWS: Well, let me here, because I have been fighting this all night
tonight, I don`t know how people say, because Keith Schiller says that some
Russian said I`m going to bring five women over to your boss` apartment or
hotel room tonight somehow incriminates him. And yet, some people on left,
I listen to all day said, oh, this shows this is all true.

No, it doesn`t. It shows perhaps totally the opposite.


MATTHEWS: As you said a moment ago, it`s all tribal, it`s all partisan,
and no matter what the issue is, just go to your column.

MILBANK: In fairness, I`m sure the Russians meant were accountants. They
want to golf. Check out his books.

MATTHEWS: OK, here you go. You are joining the rampage.

MILBANK: We don`t know and I`m not going to go so some tribal corner on
this. We don`t know what that means. What we do know is through all of
this testimony, what we`re finding out is that salacious dossier, it`s not
complete fiction. There seem to be.

MATTHEWS: Well, how does it make it less fiction or more friction?

MILBANK: Well, because we`re placed there. And if, you know, he`s there
at the Miss Universe and, no, we don`t know if that salacious business
about something that I`m not even going to say on the airwaves tonight is
true. But now we know, well, maybe that didn`t happen, but he was offered

MATTHEWS: No, frankly, his guy was offered them.

MILBANK: And – or women who were accountants, we know the bodyguards
stood at the door.

MATTHEWS: You`re teasing. You`re teasing and laughing. I see this part,
You are doing what you accuse others of doing.

Go ahead. Nancy, I want your view about this.

COOK: Well, I just think that –

MATTHEWS: Look, first of all, is it possible to be an evangelical
conservative Republican who goes to church every Sunday and think Roy Moore
should get a pass on this?

COOK: Well, I think what we`ve seen is so many of that same group that
supported Trump overlooked a bunch of things. You know, they overlooked
the “Hollywood Access” tape. They`ve overlooked a number of comments that
he`s made that had been derogatory towards women. His base really sticks
with him. The question is –

MATTHEWS: Three wives. I mean, not that that`s anything wrong with that,
but they would normally say that`s about two, too many.

COOK: Right. But his base sticks with him. So, the question is, does
that transfer to Moore? Does the base stick with Moore? We don`t know
that yet.

SCOTT: I think there`s a good shot. I think there is a YouGov/”Huffington
Post” poll that says only 8 percent of Trump voters believed any of the
allegations against Trump. So, the question –


SCOTT: Only 8 percent.

MATTHEWS: I love that. Only eight percent, one in 12 believe anything.

SCOTT: Anything. Any of them.

So, whether or not this will translate to Roy, I mean, it`s not –

MILBANK: And they won`t believe the Amazon/”Washington Post” which we
represented. If we stay sun is rising at 6:30 tomorrow morning, they`re
not going to open their window.

MATTHEWS: If you guys said Tokyo is the capital of Japan, I`m skeptical
about that.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, the roundtable is sticking with us. And this is
HARDBALL, where the action is.


MATTHEWS: Well, up next, as usual, the HARDBALL roundtable will be asked
to give me some scoops we`ll be talking about tomorrow. We`ll be right


MATTHEWS: We`re back with the HARDBALL roundtable.

Nancy, tell me something I don`t know.

COOK: Well, I think what I`m curious about tonight is does Trump address
the more controversy in his tweets.

We know that he`s up. He`s in Asia. He`s on Twitter. He already tweeted
something about China and trade.

You know, he was a huge backer of Moore. So does he come out in favor of
Moore? And also he may regret deleting all of those Luther Strange tweets.


MATTHEWS: Luther Strange liked this story, didn`t he?

COOK: I think he did.


SCOTT: The Trump voter fraud commission is being sued by one of its own
members. A Democrat on the commission –

MATTHEWS: I saw that.

SCOTT: Yes, saying that –

MATTHEWS: What`s that about? Is this commission going to find anything
that`s wrong?

SCOTT: Well, he`s saying he can`t even figure out when the meetings are.
They aren`t telling him any information. So, he`s saying they`re violating
some federal laws in terms of openness –

MATTHEWS: Does this whole thing a phantom operation?

SCOTT: Well, it doesn`t seem to be something that`s clearly organized and

MATTHEWS: Ha! You`re being so careful.

Go ahead, Dana.

MILBANK: We were lamenting poor vetting. But Eugene and I had the same
don`t tell me. So I`m afraid –

MATTHEWS: You`ve been caught empty-handed, thank you. You`re a genius but
not knowledgeable tonight.

Thank you, Nancy Cook, Eugene Scott, and the empty-handed Dana Milbank.

When we return, let me finish tonight with my upcoming tour of the West
Coast. You`re watching HARDBALL.


MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with my travel for the next two weeks
coming. I`ll be heading across the country to speak about “Bobby Kennedy:
A Raging Spirit”, which is getting a great response from people, and not
just progressives. There`s heart in this country this man is touching.

I`ll be doing flying to California tomorrow morning to do HARDBALL from Los
Angeles tomorrow night, and then “Real Time with Bill Maher”. I`ll be on a
special two-person panel on Bill Maher with Michael Moore, that`s going to
be something, and Donna Brazile`s also on that show. You can`t miss that

On Saturday, I`m going to speak at Scripps College in Claremont,
California. Then at Live Talks L.A. in Santa Monica on Monday. The
Commonwealth Club in Palo Alto on Tuesday. Then town hall in Seattle at
Temple De Hirsch Sinai on Thursday.

More coming as “Bobby Kennedy: A Raging Spirit” which has jumped onto “The
New York Times” bestseller list at number two, continues to tap into
something good in this country, something pushed aside, but I`m glad not

Well, that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.


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