Hardball with Chris Matthews, Transcript 7/25/2017 Trump Cabinet Growing Uneasy

Sheldon Whitehouse, Cheri Bustos, Susan Page, Joaquin Castro, Ginger Gibson, Jonathan Swan, Geoff Bennett

Date: July 25, 2017
Guest: Sheldon Whitehouse, Cheri Bustos, Susan Page, Joaquin Castro,
Ginger Gibson, Jonathan Swan, Geoff Bennett

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Pressure Cooker.

Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

Late today, standing in the Rose Garden, Donald Trump gave us a look inside
his mind. He views himself as cheated by Jeff Sessions, betrayed by the
man he entrusted to be his attorney general. He wanted Senator Jeff
Sessions to protect him, as any attorney should, to ward off legal threats,
to go on the attack when Trump, his client, is threatened, to defend the
man who gave him his grand position of U.S. attorney general.

What did Sessions do wrong? In the eyes of Donald Trump, he gave a shield
and sword to a man who owes no such loyalty. Worse than that, worse than
not protecting Trump, Sessions gave up his ability to protect him. He
recused himself from that ability. He let someone else, someone with no
loyalty or history with Donald Trump, decide Donald Trump`s fate.

And what he did was go out and name a special prosecutor to look for every
bit of dirt he can find on Donald Trump, perhaps enough to bring Donald
Trump down altogether.

President Trump continued attacking his attorney general today, leaving
Jeff Sessions`s future employment an open question. This morning, the
president tweeted, “Attorney General Jeff Sessions has taken a very weak
position on Hillary Clinton`s crimes – where are e-mails and DC (sic)
server – and intel leakers.”

At a news conference this afternoon with the Lebanese prime minister,
President Trump called Sessions`s decision to recuse himself bad for the
presidency. Let`s watch.


QUESTION: I`m wondering if you would talk to us a little about whether
you`ve lost confidence in Jeff Sessions, whether you want him to resign on
his own, whether you`re prepared to fire him if he doesn`t, and why you`re
sort of letting him twist in the wind, rather than just making the call for
him? Thank you.

doing that, but I am disappointed in the attorney general. He should not
have recused himself almost immediately after he took office. And if he
was going to recuse himself, he should have told me prior to taking office,
and I would have quite simply picked somebody else.

I want the attorney general to be much tougher on the leaks from
intelligence agencies, which are leaking like rarely have they ever leaked
before, at a very important level. I told you before, I`m very
disappointed with the attorney general. But we will see what happens.
Time will tell. Time will tell.


MATTHEWS: Time will tell. A number of Republican senators voiced support
for Sessions, however, today. But according to Axios, President Trump
recently called a long-time political associate and asked him out of the
blue, What would happen if I fired Sessions?

The president`s new communications director, Anthony Scaramucci, likened
the strained relationship between Trump and Sessions to the tensions that
lead to divorce. According to NBC`s Peter Alexander, Scaramucci said they
need to either get together or separate.

I`m joined right now by “The Washington Post`s” Robert Costa and Ashley
Parker, and “USA Today`s” Susan Page.

Let`s start, Robert, with your reporting and then Ashley`s on why is Trump
doing this? Why doesn`t he just lop the guy`s head off? If he wants to
fire him, why doesn`t he fire him?


MATTHEWS: … a technical reason?

political reason at the top of my notebook, Chris, talking to people inside
and outside of the West Wing today. They say the president is reluctant to
fire another top law enforcement official after he went after former FBI
director James Comey. Because of these ongoing probes, he`d rather see the
attorney general just quit.

MATTHEWS: Well, isn`t just quitting begin to look a little thin in
difference from being fired when you`re publicly humiliated? I counted
four times today he said “disappointed.” He`s using every medium of
transmission, from tweeting to press conferences to word of mouth to let
the guy know, I want you out of here.

COSTA: It`s entirely right. The lines are being blurred. Plus, what`s
complicating this situation for the Trump White House is the attorney
general, as much as he does value a rapport with the president, a rapport
that`s disintegrated, he sees his job at the Justice Department as the
fulfillment of a lifelong dream going after the hard-line immigration and
law enforcement policies that`s he`s always championed.

MATTHEWS: Ashley, he`s told him basically – it seems kind of cruel. He
said, Go out there and fire, basically, a bunch of your leakers. Fire your
own loyalists to show your loyalty to me, when we all get the sense from
what Trump says his original sin, if you make it sort of religious about it
– the original sin was recusing himself, taking himself away from a
position where he could protect Trump from a special prosecutor.

right. He blames Sessions`s original recusal for two things. Number one,
the president is a combatant. He likes people who fight. So he inherently
just emotionally on a gut level does not like that instead of fighting,
Sessions recused himself with no heads-up.

But more importantly, he also believes that that initial step is what set
in motion the process that led to special counsel Robert Mueller, who is
now causing tremendous headaches for the president and his family.

MATTHEWS: Susan, his understanding of the role of the attorney generalship
– can you square that what most people think an attorney general should be
today? Man or woman since at least Janet Reno, they`re seen as really the
country`s attorney general, not the president`s personal lawyer.

SUSAN PAGE, “USA TODAY”: That`s right. There have been presidents who`ve
appointed people who are very close to them as their attorney general, like
Kennedy, for instance, or – or Attorney General French…

MATTHEWS: Or Bobby Kennedy.

PAGE: Or Bobby Kennedy would be the prime example of that. But that is
not what we think of today. We don`t think of the attorney general as
being the president`s lawyer. We think of him as being the lawyer for the
country in a way that`s very important institutionally.

And you know, it`s interesting that Jeff Sessions, who was – Democrats
were not big fans of Jeff Sessions when he was named attorney general, but
now I think he is seen by Democrats as someone who is standing up for the
institution, someone who served in the Senate…


PAGE: … who kind of…

MATTHEWS: Why didn`t somebody tell Trump that, that attorney generals
today are a bit independent?

PAGE: Well, I think – I think…

MATTHEWS: They`re almost part of the court system.

PAGE: You know, if you`re – if you`re – if you`re a business leader,
maybe your chief lawyer, your chief counsel is watching your back. That`s
his number one client. But for the attorney general, the president is not,
in fact, his number one client.

MATTHEWS: Well, Trump got it wrong, didn`t he.

Anyway, in an interview with “The Wall Street Journal” today, President
Trump seemed to dismiss the significance of Sessions`s early endorsement of
his candidacy. In other words, he`s saying, I don`t own this guy anything.

Quote, “When they say he endorsed me, I went to Alabama. I had 40,000
people. He was a senator from Alabama. I won this state by a lot, massive
numbers. A lot of the states I won by massive numbers. But he was a
senator. He looks at 40,000 people and he probably says, What do I have to
lose? And he endorsed me. So it`s not like a great loyal thing about the
endorsement. But I`m very disappointed in Jeff Sessions.

Robert Costa, explain this thinking here. In other words, I don`t owe this
guy anything. He just jumped on the bandwagon, ergo I can dump him from
the bandwagon.

COSTA: Based on my reporting, the history is a little different. I was at
that rally in August 2015 with then Senator Sessions, then candidate Trump.
They had a real bond ideologically. Sessions provided an intellectual
core, this populism, nationalism to then candidate Trump`s pugilistic

And it was perhaps opportunist on some part by Senator Sessions, but you
have to remember, by 2015, Senator Sessions was a veteran senator in
Alabama, ensconced in a safe seat. He was not looking – he did not need
Donald Trump to win re-election. I think he was looking for Trump as an
ally to try to forward what they saw as a shared agenda.

MATTHEWS: Ashley, does he have anywhere go to? I mean, everybody assumes
these guys have 50 options. He`s obviously an attorney. He`s obviously
been respected by the people back in Alabama. He`s been elected a number
of times – too conservative for my blood, but I think he fits right in
with that state down there.

So does he have a home to go home to? As Thomas Wolfe would say, could he
go home again?

PARKER: I`m sure he does have a number of options, but I think what`s so
disconcerting to him and anyone who look at this is this is someone who
gave up a safe Senate seat, a seat he had held for 20 years, to come in, as
we mentioned earlier, to sort of serve a lifelong dream. And just six
months in, he`s being publicly and scathingly trashed by the president for
doing what many people think was the appropriate thing to do in recusing
himself. And this is one thing.

So no matter where he ends up, he`s already been deeply humiliated. And
this is one reason the Trump White House is having trouble attracting top
talent to go in.

MATTHEWS: So he may get the Kennedy Profile in Courage award, but he may
not be attorney general for long.

Anyway, there are multiple reports of frustration among the president`s
entire cabinet. Conservative commentator Erick Erickson quoted one unnamed
secretary criticizing the president`s disparaging comments about Jeff
Sessions. I love this line. If he can get treated that way, what about
the rest of us? That`s how people think, by the way, in the real world,

And meanwhile, Reuters reports foreign policy officials have grown
frustrated with their own roles. Quote, “Secretary of State Rex Tillerson
has told friends he will be lucky to last a year in his job, according to a
friend, while two officials say national security adviser H.R. McMaster was
frustrated by what he sees as disorganization and indiscipline on key
policy issues inside the White House.”

Susan, you write the big picture. You write those big stories on the front
page of “USA Today.” In all seriousness, is there a restiveness among the
cabinet, saying, If that guy can swing it, he`s a close pal of the
president`s, we`re all in trouble?

PAGE: Oh, absolutely. And you know, it goes beyond the cabinet. Look at
the chief of staff at the White House, speaking of people who`ve been…

MATTHEWS: Who is that, by the way?

PAGE: … publicly…


MATTHEWS: I can never tell he`s the chief of staff.

PAGE: Yes. I mean…

MATTHEWS: Reince Priebus.

PAGE: The level of instability and possible disruption in this
administration is extraordinary. Top White House staff, two of the top-
ranking cabinet officials, both Tillerson and Sessions, in some turmoil,
the national security adviser, people in – people who have given the
administration the credibility that it craved at the beginning with some of
these big names coming on board are now thinking about leaving.

And you know, it affects also the relationship with senators. I mean,
senators who see what`s happened to Jeff Sessions, who wasn`t, like, the
most popular senator, but he was a respected senator, a senior senator from
a state, to then be treated this way – that…

MATTHEWS: He`s treating him like Spicer.

PAGE: It undercuts…

MATTHEWS: Like he treated Spicer.

PAGE: It undercuts the willingness of Republican senators to walk the
plank for this White House.

MATTHEWS: This is LBJ stuff, by the way, regular ritual humiliation.

Anyway, the newly installed White House communications director is looking
to shake up his staff. According to “The Washington Post,” Anthony
Scaramucci is exercising a broad mandate from the president and intends to
follow through on threats to purge – isn`t that a Russian word? – aides
he believes are disloyal to Trump and leaking to the presses.

Well, today, Scaramucci was asked how he`ll stop the leaks. His answer,
I`m going to fire everybody. That`s how I`m going to do it. You`re either
going to stop leaking or you`re going to get fired. I`ve got the authority
from the president to do just that.

In fact, one communications staffer has already resigned. Michael Short
was reportedly close to Reince Priebus and Sean Spicer. That didn`t help
him. It`s not exactly clear what led to that resignation.

Finish up here, Robert. What is the mood? If you talk to the cabinet
secretary confidants – and I`ll get to Ashley on this, too – do they –
do they basically breathe a sense that they`re not really intimates of the
president, they`re not his men or women, or are they still loyal
instinctively to this guy for the appointment itself?

COSTA: Because of all the tensions and all the dramas inside of the White
House, the confidants of some cabinet secretaries who I`ve spoken with
recently say their whole M.O., their approach, is to just kind of keep
their distance right now from the president. Be an ally. Support his
policies. But if they don`t have a deep personal relationship with him,
they`re in protection mode inside of their agencies and their departments
trying to weather this storm with the attorney general and with Russia and
so many things.

MATTHEWS: Ashley, it`s your reporting. What about the cabinet? What
about the whole feeling? Do they feel like this guy`s not loyal downward?

PARKER: I think they feel that. I think some of them have a longer leash.
For instance, Ambassador Haley has often, for whatever reason, been able to
be a bit more out in front of the president.

But one challenge they`re facing is they represent the president, but
oftentimes, they`re overseas, they`re traveling, they`re trying their best
to represent the administration, and something the president says or does
or a tweet undercuts them as diplomats in the eyes of the world. And so
they`re always scrambling to recover from that.

MATTHEWS: You can see his favorites out there. One is Nikki Haley, the
other one is Hope Hicks. He`s got a few others…

PARKER: Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: … that have been described by you and others as “untouchable.”

Thank you, Robert Costa, Ashley Parker, both of “The Washington Post,”
Susan Page of “USA Today.”

Coming up, as Trump lets Jeff Sessions twist in the wind, the Russian
investigation heads forward. Today, Jared Kushner was back on Capitol Hill
answering – oh, in his way, lawyered up answering questions about his
contacts with the Russians. You don`t get a peep out of that guy. We`re
going to talk to a key Democratic member of Congress who was in that
meeting with Kushner today behind closed doors coming up right way, in

Plus, John McCain returns from treatment for brain cancer to help Senate
Republicans start the process to repeal “Obama care.” It`s the first step
toward taking health care away from millions of Americans – I don`t think
they`re going to get another step, however – something Trump and the
Republicans are now close to doing. They`re not going to get it done.

And did the president`s speech last night to the Boy Scouts once again
destroy political convention? He used the Scouts as props, as a – what, I
don`t know, studio audience for a political speech. And tonight, he`ll be
at it again, ripping his political opponents in a speech – well, a
campaign-style speech out in Ohio. We`re going to get to that with the
HARDBALL roundtable tonight. He`s using every – well, he`s breaking every
norm, using every audience.

Finally, let me finish tonight, “Trump Watch.” He will definitely not like

This is HARDBALL, where the action is.


MATTHEWS: A short time ago, the House voted overwhelmingly to slap new
sanctions against Russia and other U.S. adversaries despite objections from
President Trump. The legislation passed by a veto-proof margin, by the
way, 419 to 3. And all the dissenting votes came from House Republicans.

In addition to new financial sanctions, the bill includes a provision that
would make it harder for Trump to roll back any measures imposed against
Russia. It now heads to the Senate for final approval.

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. It`s already been a busy week for the
congressional committees involved in the Trump-Russia investigations.
Jared Kushner was up back on Capitol Hill, this time for an interview under
oath with the House Intelligence Committee. Meanwhile, the Senate
Intelligence Committee interviewed Paul Manafort on the subject of that now
infamous campaign meeting with Russians linked to the Kremlin. That was
last June of 2016.

NBC reports that, quote, “a source close to Manafort says he turned over to
the Senate Intelligence Committee notes that he took during that June 2016
Trump Tower meeting.” That`s important. He took notes at a meeting the
other guy, Jared Kushner, thought wasn`t very important. Well, Manafort
thought it was. And as we know, Manafort was forwarded the e-mails
proposing that meeting, which indicated that the Russian government was
supporting Donald Trump. By the way, Jared got that same e-mail.

Despite that, Manafort denied any campaign relationship with Russia during
the campaign and repeatedly dismissed Kremlin meddling as a Democratic
talking point.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are there any ties between Mr. Trump, you or your
campaign, and Putin and his regime?

PAUL MANAFORT, TRUMP CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN: No, there are not. It`s absurd.
And you know, there`s no basis to it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Paul, let`s go back to this question of Russia and
hacking. Can you tell us what you know about the relationship and what the
campaign knows and that Donald Trump believes?

MANAFORT: We have no relationship. This is an absurd attempt by the
Clinton campaign to try and get the focus off of what the real issue is.

They`re pretty desperate pretty quickly. That`s all I have to say on that.
It`s a far reach, obviously.


MATTHEWS: Well, that was chuckle-worthy early last summer, but today it`s
not a joke.


MATTHEWS: I`m joined right now by Democratic congressman Joaquin Castro,
member of the House Intelligence Committee, who was at that meeting with
Jared Kushner today. Also, Democratic senator Sheldon Whitehouse. He`s
from Rhode Island. He`s on the Senate Judiciary Committee.

I want to start with the congressman. Congressman, can you tell us – I
know the rules are what they are. But can you tell us, was he helpful, did
he – or is he just lawyered up to the teeth and was so careful, you
couldn`t even read anything new on what he had to say?

REP. JOAQUIN CASTRO (D), TEXAS: No, he was helpful. I think the committee
appreciated that he came in voluntarily, the he stayed for an extra hour to
speak with the committee. And so he didn`t answer, or couldn`t answer
every question that we asked him, but he certainly had a demeanor that was
forthcoming. And we`ve got more questions that we want to ask of him, so I
know that once we have a chance to go through the transcript of this
interview, hopefully, he`ll come back for another interview when the
committee`s ready.

MATTHEWS: Where are you – where are you on the estimate of this guy? Is
he the Fredo character out of “The Godfather” (INAUDIBLE) as not too
sophisticated, not too book smart, or is he a guy that is worthy of all the
portfolios this president has dropped on his lap, which is, like, the
Middle East, everything you can imagine being responsible for, and yet
they`re trying to say, Well, he`s not too sophisticated.

Which is it, sophisticated or not?

CASTRO: You know, I think the jury is still out on that.

MATTHEWS: How about you, as a jury member? As a juror, where are you?


CASTRO: Well, I will say this.

It`s clear – two things are clear to me, first, that the president has a -
- puts a lot of trust on Jared Kushner, I think, perhaps more than anyone
else in his immediate family, and also that Jared Kushner very much wants
to protect the president.

Those two things, based on what I heard, stood out for me.

MATTHEWS: How many times did Abbe Lowell stop him from answering a


CASTRO: They were – they were pretty forthcoming.

As in any deposition situation that you have seen in, there are times when
an attorney will step and ask for clarification of a question or advise his
clients. But I think they tried their best, at least it seemed to me, to
answer the questions.

MATTHEWS: You said there are some questions he – quote – “couldn`t” –
close quote – answer.

What did you mean by couldn`t answer?

CASTRO: Well, you know, as with any witness, there are things that other
people may have knowledge of that the person doesn`t have firsthand or
direct knowledge of, and so can`t speak to.

But that`s part of an investigation. You`re not going on get the full
story from any single witness, which is why this investigation and this
witness list is extensive, because it is really like putting a puzzle

MATTHEWS: Can you imagine being – asked to a meeting with some Russians
who came with e-mail that said they`re on your opponent`s – actually,
they`re on your side of a coming election, they`re on your side of a coming
election, they want to help you, they have got some dirt on your opponent,
and they want to have a meeting about it, including they want to talk about
the sanctions and whatever the issues are appropriate?

Is that credible, that someone could take that position? Is it credible

CASTRO: Well, you know, and as he issued – he made clear in his own
statement this idea that he didn`t – he thought that the meeting was a
waste of time.

That, honestly, is hard to believe, because the e-mail said something like
private and confidential.


It also said they were they were helping his father – his father-in-law
win the election.

CASTRO: That`s right.

And so I think, not just for committee members, but for any American who
sees that, at first glance, that`s quite hard to believe.


Let me go over to the Senator.

Senator Whitehouse, thank you for coming on again tonight.

Let`s talk about Paul Manafort. From the beginning, he`s had Russian
connections. I always thought that was one reason why Trump liked him,
that he was worried that he owes $17 million to the oligarchs over there.
He`s been in this thing up to his neck.

Is he going on testify or is he lawyering his way out of this or what?


I am very happy that Chairman Grassley actually issued a subpoena for him,
which I think gets everything set up right. And, in response to that,
there are document requests that are pending and the possibility of staff
interviews that are being negotiated.

And, ultimately, I both hope and expect that he will be brought before the
committee in a public hearing. Obviously, it`s not going to be tomorrow at
this point. And it`s going to be up to the chairman to pick the date.

But I believe that`s the direction that we`re heading in. It is not
uncommon to do that kind of preparatory work before you bring on a witness
in a public hearing.

MATTHEWS: Speaking of preparatory work, he walked into that meeting that
Jared Kushner says was a waste of time with a notebook, a notepad. He
wrote down contemporaneous notes of what happened in the meeting. He was a
Russian guy, knows Russian connections. He knew a meeting with these top
Russians that were represented to be supporting basically for the
government in an effort to try to help Trump win the election against his
opponent to smear his opponent.

He took that dead seriously. How would you square that with the claim – I
will call it a claim – of Jared Kushner, that it was just a casual stop-by
kind of thing?

WHITEHOUSE: Well, it is very hard to square, as you have pointed out.

It is not often, the turbulence of a campaign at that juncture, that you
get the candidate`s son, the candidate`s son-in-law, the candidate`s
campaign chairman all in room together over nothing.

And it gets particularly strange when the memo that sets it all up that was
circulated amongst all of them describes this as being part of the Russian
government`s plan to interfere in the election.

And they all look at that, and say, well, I`m coming in anyway. A lot of
people would look at that memo think and that it was a setup, it is so
obviously incriminating. But they all came anyway.

MATTHEWS: Like a sting. Like a sting. Yes.

Anyway, Congressman Castro, let`s watch something you said about this
investigation back earlier in this spring in April.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN: Have you seen any hard evidence of collusion yet?

CASTRO: Well, I guess I would say this, that my impression is, I wouldn`t
be surprised, after all this is said and done, that some people end up in


MATTHEWS: What do you think collusion constitutes?

It seems to me, Congressman, the word collusion could include showing up at
a meeting to conspire against your American opponent with foreigners, in
this case adversaries Russia. Isn`t that collusion?

CASTRO: Well, absolutely.

And when I gave that answer, I was speaking not only of the possibility of
collusion, but also, based on everything I have seen, possible obstruction
or cover-up or other things. And so I stand by that answer, not in a
malevolent way towards anyone.

But, based on everything I have seen, if you ask me honestly, my impression
is that people won`t get out of this completely unscathed, and that they
will face some kind of criminal penalty.

MATTHEWS: It looks pretty good three months later.

Anyway, thank you, U.S. congressman Joaquin Castro of Florida – I`m sorry
– Texas.

CASTRO: Texas.

MATTHEWS: Of course Texas. That`s your – anyway, San Antonio.

And thank you, Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island.

Up next: Senator McCain returns to Capitol Hill in a dramatic moment to
cast a crucial vote on health care. But can Republicans agree on what that
bill is going to be?

This is HARDBALL, where the action is.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

After weeks of setbacks and confusion, the Republicans finally took the
first step towards repealing Obamacare and potentially stripping 22 million
people of health insurance, potentially. Keep that in mind.

The vote came amidst loud chants of “Kill the bill, don`t kill us,” and
cries of “Shame” from protesters up in the gallery, who were actually
dragged out later.

Let`s watch that mayhem.


UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Kill the bill! Don`t kill us! Kill the bill!
Don`t kill us!

Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame!


MATTHEWS: Well, I haven`t heard that before. In many years, I haven`t
heard that before.

Anyway, nearly all 100 senators took their seats in the chamber as a roll
call motion to proceed to debate began.

McConnell, the Republican leader, could afford to lose only two of the 52
Republican senators. And as the votes were counted, Susan Collins of Maine
and Lisa Murkowski of Maine voted against the motion.

Roughly an hour after the vote began, with their quest to repeal Obamacare
teetering on the edge of defeat, Senator John McCain, the maverick senator,
strode into the chamber and cast a dramatic vote to move debate forward.
Let`s watch that.




Mr. McCain, aye.


MATTHEWS: Well, because not one Democrat voted, of course, for the bill,
Vice President Mike Pence had to cast the deciding 51st vote, which he did.

And after the vote, McCain, who had returned to the Senate from his home in
Arizona, where he was recuperating from surgery, he called on his
colleagues to find a common ground.


SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: The administration and congressional
Democrats shouldn`t have forced through Congress without any opposition
support a social and economic change as massive as Obamacare.

And we shouldn`t do the same with ours. Why don`t we try the old way of
legislating in the Senate, the way our rules and customs encourage us to
act? If this process ends in failure, which seems likely, then let`s
return to regular order.


MATTHEWS: Well, forcing the vote was a risky move by the majority leader,
McConnell, who required his members to take a leap of faith because it is
unclear what this bill is going to be that they`re going to begin to

And for the latest, I`m joined by former RNC chairman and MSNBC political
analyst Michael Steele, and also U.S. Democratic Congresswoman from
Illinois Cheri Bustos.

Congresswoman, I don`t know. You voted against it, but the Republicans in
the House jammed through a version of this. I don`t think the Republican
Party is a governing party. I will stake. I will be very broad about
this. I think they`re still a protest party. They`re still running
against Washington and the government.

They don`t have the slightest idea of how to square this circle of repeal
and replace.

REP. CHERI BUSTOS (D), ILLINOIS: Well, all we have to do is look at the
last six months and what has gotten done.

The election season talked about a trillion-dollar infrastructure package,
a jobs bill. We have gotten nothing done because we have these constant

I think John McCain even pointed it out, that the American public deserves
more from the Republican Party.

MATTHEWS: He also said he will vote against the bill he`s looking at.


MATTHEWS: So, his move to proceed was simply procedural.

And I think a lot of people on the left say, oh, that was terrible, what he
did. All did he was move the – to me, the mayhem into the spotlight. Now
we`re going to have three or four days, maybe a couple weeks, of hell on
earth, because there is no Republican health care philosophy, except don`t
do anything on health care.

And that won`t sell.

STEELE: Well, not only is there not a clear – I think there`s a
philosophy that is just not very clear.

MATTHEWS: What is the philosophy of the Republicans?

STEELE: Well, I think…

MATTHEWS: Do you believe the federal government would have ever moved on
health care if the Democrats hadn`t have done it under Obama? Would the
Republicans have ever come up with a health care bill?

STEELE: No. They wouldn`t have.


MATTHEWS: Well, that`s your philosophy. Don`t do anything.

STEELE: Well, no, that`s not the philosophy don`t do anything.

There were issues with the previous system, for sure, with respect to the
30 million or so people who didn`t have health care.

MATTHEWS: There wasn`t a system before.

STEELE: But it wasn`t about so much health care as it was insurance.

And I think that that`s always been a very, very important distinction in
the debate.

MATTHEWS: Well, help me on that.

STEELE: Because this whole thing has been geared towards the insurance

Doctors haven`t been at the table. Health care providers haven`t been at
the table. This has always been about the insurance, as opposed to helping
the cost of health care.

MATTHEWS: Does the federal government have a responsibility to help people
– give health insurance to people? Does the federal government have a
responsibility to make sure people have health insurance, yes or no?

STEELE: No. I don`t think that is the federal government`s role.


You think yes.

BUSTOS: Absolutely. I worked in…

MATTHEWS: I think that is the difference.

BUSTOS: I worked in health care for 10 years. I worked in health care
before, during and after the Affordable Care Act was passed.

MATTHEWS: Is it fair to stay the Democratic Party veers either from
center-left to left either for a public option, single-payer, or at least
something like Obamacare, that they have a philosophy, they believe in
doing something?

BUSTOS: Well, absolutely.

But, for right now, Democrats stand with our arms wide open, saying, we
will work with you, Republicans. We want to bring down the cost of
prescription drugs. We want to make sure that co-pays and deductibles and
premiums are affordable. Those are the areas where we should be able to
come together.

STEELE: And I think the way you can begin to do that is, this week and
over the next few weeks, begin to roll out what your plan would be to help
move Republicans into that space, because I will tell you right now.

The Democrats are in the exact same position the Republicans were in during
Obamacare season.

MATTHEWS: Well, they rolled it out yesterday. Didn`t you read the report?


STEELE: Sit back and just let others do it.

MATTHEWS: I`m sorry to interrupt.

Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic leaders on both sides,
rolled out a plan, three pegs of it. And one of the pegs was, one of the -
- what do you call it, legs was prescription drugs.

BUSTOS: Pillars. Pillars.

STEELE: Have they had it scored? Get it scored. Get it scored and put it
on the floor and let`s talk about it. It hasn`t – so that is just an


MATTHEWS: OK, Ms. Manners.


MATTHEWS: I`m just listing the proposal. They made a proposal.

STEELE: Well, fine. You have got a proposal. You have got your
colleagues in the House and Senate.


MATTHEWS: In other words, we`re back to Alphonse and Gaston. I`m putting
it off to, oh, you go first, you go first.



MATTHEWS: “The Washington Post” obtained sound of former Speaker of the
House John Boehner telling a business gathering last week that Republicans
weren`t going to repeal Obamacare. Let`s listen.


JOHN BOEHNER (R), FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: There are never – they`re
not going to repeal and replace Obamacare. It has been around too long.
And the American people have gotten accustomed to it.

Governors have gotten accustomed to this Medicaid expansion. And so trying
to pull it back is really not going to work.


MATTHEWS: True or not true?

STEELE: I think he`s right.


MATTHEWS: Didn`t you just say you`re going to do something?

STEELE: That`s the reality. But that`s the reality.

They should do something. But the reality is, you tell me what is going to
get passed in the next three weeks before they go on recess.

MATTHEWS: Nothing.

STEELE: Right. Then OK, then. John Boehner is right.

MATTHEWS: That`s why I`m not worried about the move the right by – John
McCain`s vote to proceed. That`s just going to expose the fact a little
slower that they ain`t got nothing to do.

The Republicans do not believe in national health care. They just don`t.

STEELE: No, they do not believe in national health care.


BUSTOS: Well, what you referenced earlier, yesterday, we rolled out what
we`re calling a Better Deal. And it is not just a slogan.

MATTHEWS: Who came up with that one, by the way?

BUSTOS: You know, actually…


STEELE: Yes, I would like to talk to that ad person.


MATTHEWS: Well, I think make America again, whatever you think of Trump,
was a good slogan.


MATTHEWS: But go ahead.

BUSTOS: No, it`s solid. It`s solid. We`re talking about better jobs,
better wages, a better future.

STEELE: But rMDNM_who are you calling to that table?

Look, when we rolled out fire Pelosi, that was a call to action. That was
something that gave people…

MATTHEWS: That`s positive.

STEELE: It was. It was.


STEELE: No. You know why?

MATTHEWS: Fire somebody.

STEELE: That`s right. It was. And why do you think it works for Trump,

MATTHEWS: OK, all right, all right. It`s not positive.

STEELE: So you`re going to tell me, what is the call to action? We got a
better deal for you, or we need you to go out and take out some folks?


MATTHEWS: OK. We got to go.

Michael, you`re getting so passionate now. Fire Pelosi seems to have lit
your fire.



MATTHEWS: Michael Steele, U.S. Congresswoman Cheri Bustos, one of the
great members of Congress.

And up next: President Trump has declared a war on political norms. Last
night, he gave a wild, rambling speech before thousand of Boy Scouts. I
thought they were like protected from politics. And, tonight, he`s taking
the stage again, this time at a campaign-style rally. More of that coming
up with the HARDBALL Roundtable.

You`re watching HARDBALL.



the policy fights in Washington, D.C. you`ve been hearing about with the
fake news in all of that.


CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: The fake news and all that.

Anyway, welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was President Trump last flight in his speech to, you won`t believe
it, the National Boy Scout Jamboree. The president opened his remarks by
saying he would put politics aside.

But here`s some of what he had to say after that.


TRUMP: Who the hell wants to speak about politics when I`m in front of the
Boy Scouts, right?


You know, I go to Washington and I see all these politicians. And I see
the swamp, and it`s not a good place. In fact, today, I said we ought to
change it from the word swamp to the word cesspool or perhaps to the word

Secretary Tom Price is also here today. Dr. Price.

By the way, you`re going to get the votes?


TRUMP: You better get them. He better get them. Oh, otherwise, I`ll say,
Tom, you`re fired.

As the Scout law says, a Scout is trustworthy, loyal – we could use some
more loyalty, I will tell you that.

So I have to tell you, what we did in all fairness is an unbelievable
tribute to you and all of the other millions and millions of people that
came out and voted for make America great again.

By the way, just a question, did President Obama ever come to a jamboree?



MATTHEWS: What do you say? Boy Scouts are like 11 years old to start
with. And here he is out campaigning with them. It is supposed to be a
nonpolitical crowd which they are, I think.

Anyway, maybe they like just having them there.

The Boy Scout Jamboree is an event for tens of thousands of Scouts, most of
them children, from across the country. President Trump is the ninth
president to address the group, but probably the first to talk politics.

Last night after the speech, the Boy Scouts of America issued a statement
clarifying their position. The Boy Scouts of America is wholly
nonpartisan. The invitation for the sitting U.S. president to visit the
national jamboree is a longstanding tradition and is in no way an
endorsement of any political party or specific policies.

So, they got it straight at least. He didn`t.

Tonight, the president is back out there. He`s holding a campaign style
rally in Youngstown, Ohio. That`s a smart place to go, and here`s what he
had to say a short time ago.


TRUMP: And now tonight, I`m back in the center of the American heartland,
far away from the Washington swamp to spend time with thousands of true
American patriots.


I`m here this evening to cut through the fake news filter, and to speak
straight to the American people.


Fake news. Fake, fake, fake news.

Is there any place that is more fun, more exciting, and safer than a Trump



MATTHEWS: Let`s bring in our HARDBALL roundtable to swallow that. Ginger
Gibson is a political correspondent for “Reuters”, Jonathan Swan is a
national political reporter for “Axios”, and Geoff Bennett is a
congressional reporter for NPR.

Wow, seems pretty liberal to me this group. But let`s talk about it
tonight. Yes, Geoff. Yes. In fact, you`ll start by laughing.

What do you make of Trump using the Boy Scouts? What do you think of a
more general question, just this breaking of all the norms, I mean, going
after Obama as an illegal immigrant. It is like he`s shooting the moon,
like in hearts. Everything he does is against the normal way to do
something and has kept them there. He is still running, what, in the high
30s. He`s there.

seen with this president that in his mind, every stage a campaign stage and
every audience deserves a show or a spectacle. But to your point –

MATTHEWS: But these aren`t voters even.

BENNETT: Exactly. And to your point, you know, there is an art of
addition in politics. You try to turn people who didn`t support you before
and you try to make them support you. And every time he does, it`s a
missed moment to reach across the aisle, to find people who –

MATTHEWS: But he doesn`t win by uniting. He wins by passionate division.

BENNETT: Well, so far, that was enough to get him to the White House,


BENNETT: But that does not – that`s not the way effective presidents
heretofore anyway have –

MATTHEWS: Well, I think it`s fair to say he`s kissed off the big cities
all across the country and it doesn`t seem to bother him much. What`s he
up to? What is going to the Boy Scouts for breaking all the norms? It`s
like what – I don`t know how to describe except he doesn`t accept any

himself. I mean, you know, in the speech, there are these moments when
you`re president where you can soar above, you know, you can elevate
things. You can set an example.

And, you know, Lord knows, 40,000 Boy Scouts is one of those moments. But
he talks about Hillary and Obama in Michigan, and, you know, yes, I
understand the theory that they have, which is that you don`t need to reach
out to the 54 percent. You can just stick with the base.

But let`s just are imagine there`s a chance that theory is wrong. This is
one of those chances, you get to reach out and he just he didn`t take it.

MATTHEWS: What do you think of the – even his somewhat mild mannered
bullying when he says to Tom Price there, HHS guy, his pick to run that
huge department. If you don`t get this bill, through, I`m going to fire
you. I mean, that`s a street corner drugstore cowboy, we used to say,
standing on the street corner saying, you don`t mess with me. You`re out
of here.

scouts would have liked in terms of role modeling for the scouts that were
there. And if you want to drain the swamp and fill with people who are
good and want to do the best thing for America, a crowd of scouts might be
the best recruiting place you could go to.


GIBSON: And instead of being a role model, you know, he was disparaging
Washington and telling them, don`t get involved unless you`re going to be
that loyal to me.

MATTHEWS: It would have been great if he wore a scout uniform, though,
wouldn`t he? I mean, you guys. Love the kerchief and everything, and
merit badges. Scouters wear those uniforms, a guy behind them with the
campaign hat on, you know?

They do that. It would be more appropriate, I think. Wouldn`t it?

BENNETT: Well, perhaps. Who knows? But Donald Trump wasn`t a Boy Scout
and definitely wasn`t an Eagle Scout, even though some of the members of
his cabinet were. I mean – and then to have, to encourage the Boy Scouts
to boo Hillary Clinton I think was a definite low moment.

MATTHEWS: I don`t think there`s a merit badge in hate. Anyway, last
night`s speech to the Boy Scouts wasn`t the last time in the last few days
the president turned to public ceremony into a political rally. Here`s
what he said on Saturday at the commissioning ceremony for USS Gerald Ford.


TRUMP: Now we need Congress to do its job and pass the budget that
provides for higher, stable and predictable funding levels for our military
needs, that our fighting men and women deserve and you will get. Believe
me. President Trump, I will tell you. You will get it. Don`t worry about

But I don`t mind getting a little hand. So call that congressman and call
that senator and make sure you get it.

And, by the way, you can also call those senators to make sure you get
health care.


MATTHEWS: Let me ask you at option, Geoff, you`ve got to start. It`s
stuff. It will take some guts probably.

Full terms for this guy. Two full terms or not a full term? Where would
you put him? Give me your predictions.

BENNETT: My prediction?

MATTHEWS: Full term, two full terms or not a full term?

BENNETT: I will say he gets a full term. I will say this, though, that we
have not seen the end of Trump unleashed I think with Anthony Scaramucci as
communications director already signaling that he`s going to let Trump be
Trump and encourage him –

MATTHEWS: I think he`s going to be chief of staff –

BENNETT: Oh, yes.

MATTHEWS: Let me go to Jon here. Full term, two terms or no full term?

SWAN: Two terms.

GINGER: I`ve given up on guessing what the American electorate is going to
do. But let me say this.


MATTHEWS: You have to do it. Full term, two full terms, or not a full

GIBSON: He`s still full term, maybe two.


GIBSON: I need to see turning point.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about you, Chris?


MATTHEWS: Anyway, I`ll think about it. I`m going to think about it.

The roundtable is sticking with us and up next, these three will tell me
something I don`t know. We`ll be right back with HARDBALL.


MATTHEWS: Well, here`s some positive news from Africa`s fight against HIV
virus and, of course, AIDS. New data from the country of Swaziland where I
served in the Peace Corps shows a massive drop in the rate of new HIV/AIDS
infections. In 2011, for example, Swaziland had the highest rate of
infection in the world. Nearly one in three people estimated to be living
with HIV.

But by 2016, five years later, the rate of new infection was cut nearly in
half and that`s in large part because of increased testing and access of
virus suppressing drugs, something for which former President George W.
Bush deserves a lot of credit. Thanks to the PEPFAR program he launched
back in 2003. Credit where credit is due here.

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: We`re back with the HARDBALL roundtable.

Ginger, tell me something I don`t know.

GIBSON: Trump wants to attack Amazon.

MATTHEWS: Oh, wait, did you say Trump would last one or two terms? Go

GIBSON: Trump wants to attack Amazon. Our “Reuters”/IPSOS poll found that
two-thirds of his voters say they shop online this last holiday season and
more than half of them on Amazon. So, he is attacking a company that`s
really popular with the folks who voted him into office.

MATTHEWS: But they all say merry Christmas.



SWAN: Anthony Scaramucci, the new communications –

MATTHEWS: The Mooch.

SWAN: The Mooch – says he`s going to fire, quote, everybody. I would
narrow that substantially to people who are really nervous inside and have
RNC on their resumes.

MATTHEWS: I don`t think Hope Hicks is in trouble, and Ivanka.

SWAN: She`s certainly won`t.

MATTHEWS: Go ahead.

BENNETT: Democrats appear to be in a good position to take advantage of a
wave election in 2018. If it happens, Brookings crunched the numbers and
found there are 209 candidates, Democrat candidates, who are going to
challenge Republicans. There are only 28 Republicans who –

MATTHEWS: Are you betting on the Democrats to win the House back?

BENNETT: All these tough questions.


MATTHEWS: You`re an expert, 24 seats.

BENNETT: I think they`re in a good position.

MATTHEWS: What do you think, Jon? You`re betting (ph) with this?

SWAN: Sure. Why not?


GIBSON: I would –

MATTHEWS: Twenty-four seats.


MATTHEWS: I`ll give my answer. If the economy stays the way it is, pretty
good, not great, pretty good, better than it`s been, I think the
Republicans will hold. If it doesn`t, look out. I think they lose.

It`s all about the economy`s health. Look at the top issue, every we poll,
the economy.

BENNETT: It`s politics 101.

MATTHEWS: Well said, academically said.

Thank, Ginger Gibson. Thank you, Jonathan Swan and Geoff Bennett.

When we return, let me finish tonight with Trump Watch. He won`t like it.
You`re watching HARDBALL.


MATTHEWS: Trump Watch, Tuesday, July 25th, 2017.

This president believes that the attorney general should be his attorney.
He believes that Jeff Sessions betrayed him by giving up his ability to
defend him just as any other hired attorney does. In other words, he
sloughed off the very job he was hired for, to protect Donald Trump from
the law.

Is there any other way to explain the righteous indignation we witnessed in
the Rose Garden this afternoon? A man who feels stiffed by this guy from
Alabama, this Southern senator who he gave the big time job of attorney
general to, only to have the guy go south on him when the heat got up

So, fasten your seatbelts. I believe we`re going to experience some
turbulence in this city. A U.S. attorney general seems on his way out,
perhaps after few weeks of twisting slowly in the wind Watergate-style, or
in Trump style, briskly in the wind.

Trump offered to put off the execution only if Sessions spends the next
weeks and months firing his own people, one by one for leaking. In other
words, he can save himself, Sessions can, at least for a time if he shows
his loyalty to Trump by exiting the people he`s brought to Washington to
work for him. He can show loyalty to Trump by showing disloyalty to those
who loyal to him. Wouldn`t it wonderful?

Well, none of this will save him from Trump`s wrath eventually. His
original sin, Sessions that is, was to give up the sword and shield he was
given to protect Donald Trump himself. By recusing himself in the Russian
matter, he advocated his role as palace guard to an emperor that will not
forgive an act he sees as treasonous to him personally. And in the world
view of Donald Trump, it`s unforgivable.

So, some day or hour very soon, someone will come to the attorney general,
Jeff Sessions, and deliver the message – leave now while you can still
walk out the door with a minimum of grace.

That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.


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