Show: HARDBALL Date: January 19, 2017 Guest: Catherine Rampell, Susan Page, Jeff Merkley
CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Shift of the cosmos.
Let`s play HARDBALL.
Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews up in New York on the eve of a huge transition in America. Tomorrow, of course, Donald Trump will take the oath of office and be sworn in as the 45th president of the United States. It will be a day full of pomp out in Washington, and also, let`s face it, protests. More than 50 House Democrats say they will be no-shows at the ceremony itself.
Meanwhile, the president-elect had a busy day in Washington after landing there this morning. There he is with his wife Melania. Just moments ago, he spoke at a welcome concert at the Lincoln Memorial, where he promised to unify the country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: This journey began 18 months ago. I had something to do with it, but you had much more to do with it than I did. I`m the messenger. I`m just a messenger.
We all got tired of seeing what was happening and we wanted change, but we wanted real change. That last month of the campaign, we knew that something special was happening. The polls started going up, up, up, but they didn`t want to give us credit because they forgot about a lot of us. On the campaign, I called it the forgotten man and the forgotten woman. Well, you`re not forgotten anymore!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, earlier today, Trump spoke at leadership lunch in his own hotel on Pennsylvania Avenue, where he praised Paul Ryan. Let`s watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: (INAUDIBLE) because he`s got so much legislation to write (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, politics makes strange bedfellows. Later, with his family, Trump attended a wreath-laying ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier over at Arlington National Cemetery. Trump began the day defending himself from charges that he was divisive. Actually quoting the Reverend Franklin Graham, Trump tweeted, "It wasn`t Donald Trump that divided this country. This country has been divided for a long time."
Whoever`s to blame, the new president will take the reins of a country divided pretty much down the middle, I think we can agree. So what will Trump do to bring us together?
Michael Steele`s the former chair of the Republican National Committee and an MSNBC political analyst, and Susan Page is Washington bureau chief for "USA Today," and Catherine Rampell is a columnist with "The Washington Post."
It`s great to have you all on. I want to start with Michael because you were chair of that party. And I`m wondering -- we`re divided -- we`re not just divided between the two parties, we`re -- people are divided pretty much against -- half the country against Trump. They voted against (INAUDIBLE) They don`t know what he`s up to. And of course, the Republican Party`s divided between the establishment wing, which I think is going to cause Trump the most trouble, those that want to cut entitlements, those that (INAUDIBLE) spend money for infrastructure -- that`s going to be the battle royale.
But tell me, how does Trump in that speech tomorrow -- he`s got all the time in the world. He can speak like Castro, if he wants, for four hours, or he can speak like Kennedy for about two minutes, or I thing one of his - - George Washington`s second inaugural was 135 words.
MICHAEL STEELE, FMR. RNC CHAIR, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.
MATTHEWS: What do you think he should do? How about a "should" first. We`ll go with that.
STEELE: What he should do is, I -- he should appreciate the moment and in that speech give that clarion call that he talked about, talk to those forgotten Americans because that is an important part of his victory. It is why he is going to be standing on that podium. They put their trust and their faith in them.
So I think -- I think in a sense, Chris, if he talks to them and as a byproduct of that, help those who didn`t support Trump, help those who may have real concerns about him begin to appreciate in a real sense why they do, those forgotten do trust him and why they -- those who don`t believe him or don`t like him or don`t want him in that Oval Office should began to come around.
And the second part I think is the message directly to them that really talks to -- about healing a nation, that he knows and appreciates in his own words this evening is divided, and he knows it`s been divided that way for a long time, and maybe, which he probably won`t do, put a little bit of that on his shoulders, as well. Show them that he gets that, yes, I may have played a small part in that, and for that I want to make up to you over and over again by being the best president I can be.
MATTHEWS: Well, that would be very magnanimous.
Susan, what should be the headline from Trump? What`s the headline because the -- the liberals -- I mean, the progressives, they call themselves today, probably they won`t even be watching tomorrow. They`ll watch some of it, but they`re not going to hang on every word.
Is there a headline he can deliver to people that they can`t miss that would be good for unifying the country?
SUSAN PAGE, "USA TODAY": Well, you could have a headline like "Bring us together," you know, something -- some phrase like that that addresses the people who did not vote for him, the majority of Americans who did not vote for him. And maybe he`ll do that.
ANNOUNCER: But I`ve got to say that while there`s some things a speech can do, there are limits to what even a great speech can do. And what Donald Trump does after the speech is going to matter more than what he says during the speech.
Watch what he does in his first day in office on -- over the weekend, on Monday when it comes to reversing Obama policies or putting forward new policies that are in line with what he promised during the campaign. That`ll help him with the people who supported him. That`s not going to help him with the people who didn`t support him and who -- some of whom are going to be out there protesting in the streets.
MATTHEWS: You know, Catherine, one of the -- Jimmy Carter wrote that first speech (INAUDIBLE) certainly had a hand in writing his own inaugural speech, and the only thing people can remember from the speech, besides walking down Pennsylvania Avenue, which is very dramatic and pedestrian, if you will (INAUDIBLE) want to do, is he paid tribute to the guy he beat, Jerry Ford, for bringing the country back from Watergate. That -- that blew people away because that had been a tough campaign.
CATHERINE RAMPELL, "WASHINGTON POST": That would be great if Trump did something similar...
MATTHEWS: He`s got to say something about Hillary.
RAMPELL: Something...
MATTHEWS: She`s up there on the platform with him.
RAMPELL: Yes, she will there. She will be there. I mean, Obama will be there, as well, and they`ve had a complicated but more cordial relationship. It would be great if he did something similarly magnanimous, that (INAUDIBLE) the president for all people, including those who didn`t vote for him. He`s made similar comments, you know, even immediately after he won, in fact, but didn`t really keep to the spirit of them in subsequent days.
So I agree with Susan`s comments that it`s not only the words of the speech, it`s his actions. It`s what`s on his Twitter feed, for that matter, in the following...
MATTHEWS: Is he going to tweet from the platform? (INAUDIBLE)
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: I mean, Michael, he`s not beyond that! I can see him -- I can see all you out there. There are no empty seats, no matter what the media says. The seats are all filled. This crowd is ready to go. I can see him doing that.
STEELE: Well, I don`t know if he`ll actually physically do it himself right there, but I could see him having some pre-planned tweets, absolutely, that sort of reflect part of the speech or sort of, you know, crystalizes a point that he made during the speech. I can definitely see that. But it would be a sight to see the president siting there tweeting in the middle of the inauguration!
RAMPELL: Doesn`t he dictate most of his tweets during the day, too...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: I do not really want to know that intimate information.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: Anyway, let me go to Susan because, Susan, you`re used to doing these -- what`s in, what`s out. They always do them at the new year, but now we have a new president, for better or worse -- and we don`t know if it`s for better or worse. A lot of people think for worse.
But what do you think is a clear thing that`s going to change? I know a lot of people of color, a lot of minorities -- and I -- I -- I see this in the face of people, I said the other night. I`m also talking to people, look me in the eye and say -- or there`s somebody I meet on the street or meet in the airport or meet in a car -- they say, I`m worried.
And it seems to me that is the person that this president had to -- this new president has to talk to. He has to talk to that man or woman of any age that`s worried about -- you can`t say we have nothing to fear but fear itself, like Roosevelt did. He`s got to say you`ve got nothing to fear but me. I mean, he`s got to fix this problem, I think.
PAGE: But there are two -- there are two ways in which -- first of all, everything`s going to change. And there are two ways. One is kind of stylistically, and one of the things that I think has concerned some of those who didn`t support him is, Does he have the kind of demeanor that you`d hope a president would have? Does he have the kind of sober judgment you want to have when you`re the person in control of America`s armed forces and our nuclear codes?
And the other thing is all on policy. It`s on everything from health care to immigration to relations with Russia to NATO allies. All that is going to be different in a Trump administration than -- and -- than it`s been under an Obama administration. This is going to be not one of those gradual transitions where everything isn`t so dramatic. This is going to be a sea change overnight on U.S. policy on a host of fronts.
MATTHEWS: Catherine, I think you`re the youngest here, but I -- you certainly didn`t live in the nuclear war age, like a lot of us did. We were living through it, where you didn`t know whether there were going to be an accident tomorrow or somebody`s going to push the wrong button.
Starting at noon, I believe, tomorrow, the Strategic Air Command top commander out there, the general, whose job it is to take the call from the commander-in-chief, should we get into a nuclear situation, and it`s voice recognition. It`s technology. Five minutes to noon, Obama can make that call. He won`t, of course, but he might. He could
Five minutes after noon -- Trump. So the voice that`s recognized on that phone is the commander-in-chief down at -- he has the potential to do the stuff that scares the bedickens (ph) out of people -- the dickens out of people who`ve actually been briefed! And he will be briefed tomorrow morning or tonight on what is potential -- how many people to kill with each button.
RAMPELL: I...
MATTHEWS: It`s horrible, but it`s real.
RAMPELL: Yes. I mean, not to play into the public`s fears, but yes, that is something terrifying to me, given that Trump does not seem to have the greatest impulse control. And when he says that he gets attacked, he punches back. What does that mean when he has greater weapons with which to punch? I don`t know.
One would hope that, as Obama has stated, Trump will be sobered by and awed by the powers of his new office, by the responsibilities that he will be imbued with. And we just have to hope...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
RAMPELL: ... that all evidence to the contrary...
MATTHEWS: Well, I think that`s one thing...
RAMPELL: ... from the last year...
MATTHEWS: ... everybody on the planet can agree with.
Anyway, the decision by nearly one third of the Democrats in the House of Representatives to boycott the Mr. Trump`s inauguration drew scorn from Republicans. Here`s Senator John McCain today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: On a number of issues, I disagree with the president-elect, but he is -- he has been elected and elected legitimately, despite what some of my Democrat friends say in their temper tantrums.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: You know, speaking of tantrums, Senator McCain, why don`t we all agree that Republicans should stop saying "Democrat" friends. The adjective is Democratic.
Anyway, Newt Gingrich called the protest childish.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What would you think he would say about these congressmen and women that are boycotting?
NEWT GINGRICH (R), FMR. HOUSE SPEAKER, FOX CONTRIBUTOR: That they`re childish and silly. The inauguration`s not about Republicans. It`s not about Donald Trump. The inauguration`s about America. Why would you abandon America? If you`re a member of Congress, if you -- if you worked that hard to get to be part of the system...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, but Newt, they`re trying to score political points.
GINGRICH: Yes, but all they`re doing is making themselves look small and silly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: You can`t say "small and silly" on "Fox and Friends." I`m sorry. This is rolling (ph) coal to Newcastle.
Let me go to Michael, Michael Steele, on this. What you do think the reality to Trump of seeing all those empty seats or hearing about them? Will it be positive, or he`ll just say, Screw you guys? What`s going to be the reaction?
STEELE: I don`t think he very much would care. I think he probably looks at that as small and silly. And if anything, what it does is it further burrows into his mind this sense that there are those out there that he`s supposed to have to deal with who do not view him legitimately, for whatever reason.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
STEELE: And I think that that may come back to bite some of those Democrats who -- you know, at the end of the day, he`s the president. And you know, you`re going to need his help if something happens in your community, in your state, in your neighborhood, and making that phone call after this kind of display -- and I agree with the speaker. This is not about the president, the man, or the woman...
MATTHEWS: I agree (INAUDIBLE)
STEELE: ... this is about the presidency, and I think that that`s something that these individuals have forgotten.
MATTHEWS: Well, they`re very angry, and I understand that -- I don`t believe in things like flag burning, but sometimes, it`s the way people describe their feelings. By the way, do you think he will keep a list of those that didn`t show up?
(LAUGHTER)
STEELE: No.
MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: You`re in a very strong, very positive mood right now. Thank you, Michael Steele. Thank you, Susan Page, and thank you right up here, Catherine Rampell of "The Washington Post."
Coming up -- confirmation chaos. Talk about an "oops" -- remember that word? The New York Times reports that Rick Perry the "oops" man, didn`t know what the Department of Energy did when he accepted the job offer from Donald Trump. He didn`t know what they did. That was back when he wanted to get rid of the department. Of course, he wanted to get rid of it. He didn`t know what they did. Anyway, it`s the latest snafu in confirmation process that`s had its share.
Plus, or big HARDBALL special tonight. It`s going to be our (INAUDIBLE) program. It comes up halfway through the show, "The Audacity of Barack Obama." We`re going to look at the incredible journey of the man who became our 44th president.
HARDBALL was along for Obama`s remarkable rise, from his electrifying convention speech back in Boston to 2004 to that bitter cold day -- bitterly cold day -- in Springfield, Illinois, when Obama announced his campaign for the presidency. We`re going to take a look back at this "only in America" story.
And finally, "Let Me Finish" with the cosmic shift coming our way tomorrow at 12 noon Eastern Standard Time.
And this is HARDBALL, where the action is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Former president George H.W. Bush, the first President Bush, and former first lady Barbara Bush are, quote, "both on the upswing." That`s according to a Bush family spokesman. That`s great news. Former president bush is alert and remains in stable condition in intensive care, of course, and is being actively evaluated for having his breathing tube removed, while Barbara Bush continues to be treated for bronchitis with antibiotics. That doesn`t sound too bad. Even before he was hospitalized, Bush 41 was already not expected to attend tomorrow`s inauguration due to health concerns.
And we`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Tom Price -- they were so nice to Tom, right?
(LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: Where`s Tom? (INAUDIBLE) Where is Tom? (INAUDIBLE) It`s a lovely group of people, Tom. They wanted to end his career so fast...
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: ... and then they found out, man, he`s smart. We have a lot of smart people. (INAUDIBLE) one thing we`ve learned. We have by far the highest IQ of any cabinet ever assembled!
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: That`s Donald Trump at a live picture (ph) from Union Station in Washington.
Welcome back to HARDBALL. Anyway, where we are right now, expecting President-elect Donald Trump to arrive for an inaugural eve dinner just moments away from now.
Meanwhile -- that`s in Union Station down in D.C. Meanwhile, temperatures are running high in Washington surrounding many of Trump`s cabinet picks, didn`t you notice if you`ve been watching television today? The partisan fireworks were on display in today`s Senate Finance Committee confirmation hearing for Treasury pick Steve Mnuchin. Let`s watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. PAT ROBERTS (R), KANSAS: Senator Wyden, I`ve got a Valium pill here that you want to take before the second round. Just a suggestion, sir.
SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D), OHIO: Mr. Chairman, I hope that that comment about Valium doesn`t set the tone for 2017 in this committee. I just -- I like Senator Roberts, but I just can`t quite believe that he would say that to a distinguished senator from Oregon.
ROBERTS: I said that to the president of the United States at one point.
BROWN: Perhaps you did. But I would hope that that doesn`t set the tone for the session...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Chairman...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. All right.
BROWN: I sit on...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Corker...
ROBERTS: I have the time, please.
BROWN: The relationship we`re building is so different from this.
ROBERTS: I have the time, please.
BROWN: This is just outrageous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen, you...
ROBERTS: I don`t know about outrageous, but I think just a little pinprick of humor might help this committee from time to time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: By the way, just to do a little arguing here, for months I said to the Clinton campaign, Hillary Clinton`s campaign, Put Sherrod Brown, that tough fightin` guy with the rough voice there from Ohio, a real Rust Belt Democrat labor-type guy -- put him on your ticket and you`re going to do well in the Rust Belt.
Instead, they didn`t do that. They picked somebody from Virginia. They missed the point, the geography of this campaign was getting somebody from the Rust Belt to put that brand of caring out those working people up there in Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, those states, that never got put on those states by the Democratic Party, which should have been the part with the brand up there. Should have been Sherrod Brown.
Several of Trump`s cabinet appointees -- getting back to today -- are coming under fire for ethics issues, ethics issues, that could potentially damage their confirmations.
Health and Human Services pick Georgia congressman Tom Price, who made investments in health care firms that benefited from legislation he pushed in Congress. Commerce secretary pick Wilbur Ross acknowledges hiring and undocumented housekeeper, someone here illegally, who was later fired (INAUDIBLE) Treasury nominee Steve Mnuchin, as I said, initially failed to disclose his role in multiple Cayman Island businesses and over $100 million in personal assets -- didn`t tell anybody about them, according to "The Washington Post."
Mnuchin said the failure to disclose was a mistake -- yes, a $100 million mistake -- and updated the information.
Well, thank you when you`re caught.
Also, OMB pick South Carolina Congressman Mick Mulvaney, who has been on this show, also failed to pay at least $15,000 in state and federal employment taxes for a household employee.
These people don`t pay it until they`re caught.
Anyway, Texas Governor Rick Perry -- remember "oops"? -- faced the Senate today in his confirmation to lead the Energy Department, an agency he once called for to be eliminated, although he couldn`t remember the name of it. It was his third agency.
Remember this moment from 2012? Let`s catch him in the act.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK PERRY (R), FORMER TEXAS GOVERNOR: And I will tell you, it is three agencies of government when I get there that are gone, Commerce, Education, and the -- what`s the third one there? Let`s see.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need five.
PERRY: Oh, five, OK.
PAUL: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
PERRY: So Commerce, Education, and the -- the third agency of government, I would -- I would do away with the Education, the...
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Commerce.
PERRY: Commerce. And let`s see. I can`t. The third one, I can`t. Sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
PERRY: Oops.
And, by the way, that was Department of Energy I was reaching for a while ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Wow. We have all been there. It`s called a brain freeze.
Anyway, but Perry then, after having that brain freeze and forgetting the name of department he wanted to get rid of, the third one he really wanted to get rid of, really, really wanted to get rid of, here is Perry changing his tune, now that his name is on the block to get that department.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PERRY: My past statements made over five years ago about abolishing the Department of Energy do not reflect my current thinking.
And, in fact, after being briefed on so many of the vital functions of the Department of Energy, I regret recommending its elimination.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Senator Jeff Merkley is a Democrat from Oregon. He questioned Governor Perry today.
I know it`s funny, Senator Merkley. Should this guy be secretary of energy, if he wanted to get rid of the department?
SEN. JEFF MERKLEY (D), OREGON: I`ll tell you, there was so much irony that he has been nominated for this department that he could not remember the name of and wanted to eliminate.
And I gather that now that he finds out it has a lot to do with protecting the process regarding nuclear energy, he is not as interested as he was when he first said yes.
MATTHEWS: Really. He wanted to protect oil and gas, obviously.
MERKLEY: He is certainly not at the top of the list when we talk about the folks we`re most concerned about in this Cabinet of kind of swamp monsters.
MATTHEWS: Why do we look at these Cabinet appointments and see this time around -- now, it is on open question without any point of view. I mean an open question. I know that`s rare from me, but I really don`t have an answer.
But why are these on partisan lines? Usually, it seems like, if your from the president`S party, the president-elect`s party, you vote for the nominees of his -- for his candidate. And if you`re on the Democratic side, you feel like this is a choice, decision. Well, I might go. I might not.
The Republicans are pretty much lining up for all these Cabinet appointments and other presidential appointments. The Democrats, I get the feeling on many cases are going to vote down the line against them.
MERKLEY: Well, it won`t be down the line.
There will be folks like Mad Dog Mattis -- and, by the way, it says something that somebody nicknamed Mad Dog is like the most sensible and responsible member of a nominated group.
But there will be folks who we will supporting. But so many folks are just from way outside on the fridge. Inviting Pruitt to come to the capital to dismantle clean water and clean air, for example, or for closure king to be in charge of our economy, after the attacks that Trump did during his campaign on Wall Street, that`s what`s going on here.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: I love you on the show, because you are open. This is how I set you up.
How many are you going to vote against? How nay votes are you going to cast on Cabinet appointments?
MERKLEY: I think it`s going to eight to 12.
MATTHEWS: OK.
Let me ask you about these things that get -- are bugaboos when people go up for Supreme Court. You have hired somebody, a person that isn`t documented. They`re illegal, if you will, and been getting away with it for years.
And, all of a sudden, they`re up for a big appointment, they said, oh, I made a mistake on my paperwork. Yes, they didn`t make a mistake. They were chincing themselves. They were saving money, probably not being honest citizens.
What do you make of them? They used to be killers. Are they still killers, those -- failure to pay household employees` taxes?
MERKLEY: Can you imagine what would happen to an Obama nominee who had overlooked the fact that they had invested a tremendous amount in the Cayman Islands?
MATTHEWS: Yes, $100 million.
MERKLEY: Or someone who had traded like Tom Price on a medical stock at the same time that he was making decisions to benefit that particular company?
They would be gone. They would be gone overnight. They would be gone in five minutes.
MATTHEWS: Well, let`s go through some of the crazier ones.
The secretary of labor guy believes in robots. The guy who is EPA doesn`t believe in regulation against pollution. I could down the list. DeVos is not huge on public schools. It`s pretty weird. It`s almost like name the person who will do the worst, who will screw up that Cabinet post the most.
MERKLEY: No, that`s absolutely right.
And we have realize that if you look at the big trend here, the things that Trump campaigned on, taking on Wall Street, fighting for workers, he`s doing the opposite in this. And he`s not draining the swamp. There`s powerful special interests that are being put right into key positions.
MATTHEWS: OK. Who do you like?
Come on, Mr Democrat. I know you`re a liberal Democrat from Oregon, but come on. Give me some of the guys and women you think he picked up that are worthy of a yes vote and confirmation.
(CROSSTALK)
MERKLEY: All right, I do like Mad Dog.
I don`t agree with the changes in civilian control, that is -- and I voted against the waiver, but given the waiver has passed, I think he`s a very responsible person who will help keep us out of crazy wars that Trump might want to take us on to.
MATTHEWS: I like him already. That`s what I want to hear, a general that doesn`t want to fight stupid wars.
Go ahead.
MERKLEY: Yes, exactly.
And Governor Haley, I was sitting in on her hearing yesterday. And I disagree with her on a bunch of things. But in terms of her graciousness, her dignity, her ability to reach out and connect with folks at the U.N., I think she will be a real asset to the administration.
MATTHEWS: Does she know we`re playing with nitroglycerine when we talk about moving our embassy -- by the way, it`s not Israel`s embassy -- it`s our embassy over there.
We talk moving about that to still disputed Jerusalem, especially East Jerusalem, does she know what hell that could yield, in terms of intifadas, three, four, five?
Does she know that in the hearings?
MERKLEY: Foreign policy is not her strong point.
MATTHEWS: What?
MERKLEY: She says that right up front. She says, that is not an area I have dealt with.
MATTHEWS: She`s going to be U.N. ambassador.
(CROSSTALK)
MERKLEY: I know. And this is why it`s strange. This tells you something, that I`m citing her as somebody I think is one of the more reasonable nominees.
MATTHEWS: Well, I wish she would get a tutor, because, as the president said yesterday in this last press conference, he said, you have got to be ready to deal with the consequences over these kinds of decisions.
They may be popular. They may help you with your fund-raising. They may help you with your right-wing supporters. Fine. That`s politics. But you got have to deal with the consequences of what that will mean to King Abdullah, what it will mean to the Saudi, what it will mean to the Emirates, what it will mean to -- the only friends we have over there are Sunnis.
And to have this thrown in their face by a new president is not going to be helpful. I hope Trump gets the message. Reagan said he would veto anybody that tried to do that.
(CROSSTALK)
MERKLEY: Well, I`m going to tell you this. I hope that Governor Haley has Samantha Power on speed dial.
MATTHEWS: Yes, thank you so much. You`re well said there.
Thank you, Jeff Merkley, senator from Oregon -- Oregon.
MERKLEY: You`re welcome.
MATTHEWS: Still ahead on HARDBALL, our special report, "The Audacity of Barack Obama." Tonight, on his last night in the White House, we have an in-depth look at the 44th president of the United States.
And this is HARDBALL, where the action is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
Tonight, I`m going to be a guest on "The Late Show," "The Late Show with Stephen Colbert." There, I`m laughing pretty hard.
We will be talking about the final days of the Obama administration. I`m going to talk a lot positive about President Obama tonight. And what can you expect starting tomorrow from Donald Trump? An interesting attitude I take tonight.
So, catch me with Colbert tonight at 11:30 Eastern, 10:30 Central. And I`m laughing too much.
When we come back, a HARDBALL special report, "The Audacity of Barack Obama." It started back in 2004, when the country was first introduced to this eloquent young state senator from Illinois. And since then, HARDBALL has covered him every step of the way. Join me as we take one last look back to a fine president and a fine man.
You`re watching HARDBALL.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Well, tonight on HARDBALL, we bring a special report on "The Audacity of Barack Obama," covering the remarkable journey we have witnessed of him through the Obama era.
It`s a look back at how the president has conducted himself in the public eye, how he evolved in office, and how he overcame the many challenges that stood in his way.
We were there from the very beginning, of course, when, as a relatively unknown state senator, Barack Obama delivered that rousing keynote address at the Democratic Convention up in Boston back in 2004.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA (D), ILLINOIS STATE SENATOR: There`s not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: There`s not a black America and a white America and Latino America and Asian America. There`s the United States of America.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, even at first glimpse, we all knew -- I did, I thought -- we`re witnessing something special here.
Here was my immediate reaction after he just finished with that amazing speech.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: I have seen the first black president there.
I know -- the reason I say that is because -- because I think the immigrant experience, combined with the African background, combined with the incredible education, combined with his beautiful speech -- now, every politician gets helped on the speech, but that speech was a piece of work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: It sure was.
Three short years later, we gathered at the place where Abraham Lincoln once stood in Springfield, Illinois, to hear the future president kick off his campaign, coldest day of the year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: In the shadow of the Old State Capitol, where Lincoln once called on a house divided to stand together, where common hopes and common dreams still live, I stand before you today to announce my candidacy for president of the United States of America!
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Every 50 years or so, they come about. They come about.
Anyway, I`m joined right now by MSNBC political analyst the great Eugene Robinson, columnist with "The Washington Post," Michael Beschloss, MSNBC`s -- I`m glad we have him -- presidential historian, and correspondent Chris Jansing, who covered President Obama for NBC News.
I want to start with Chris, because you covered all this as a newsperson every day. I think it`s so important we look back and catch the dynamic of this, the wonderful trend of a guy who comes from really nowhere. A state senator basically is on the road to the White House, a state senator, before he was even elected as senator from Illinois.
You`re thoughts and memories.
CHRIS JANSING, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he looked so young, obviously, in that speech.
MATTHEWS: I did too, actually.
JANSING: And there was so much anticipation.
(LAUGHTER)
JANSING: I was going to say, you look exactly the same.
MATTHEWS: Oh, yes, thank you.
JANSING: He looks much longer. He jokes about his gray hair now.
But, Chris, at that point, inside political circles, particularly Democratic political circles, he was known as a rising star. But he was just a state senator running to become the only African-American senator in the United States Senate.
And there was this tension that I remember thinking, can he pull it off? Is he as good as everyone says he is going to be? And there were other great speakers, including Bill Clinton, who were at that convention. And he just brought the house down.
I just remember that was first most of us had heard of his personal story told by him, not in his book, but told in his words. And he talked about a faith in simple dreams. I think it was an insistence on small miracles. And you did know at that moment there was somebody there who had something special. He had the charisma. He obviously had the oratorical skills.
But he also showed, I think, the depth and the kind of world view that he had, I would argue to you, just a couple of days ago at his last press conference, and last week, when he gave his farewell speech in Chicago.
MATTHEWS: Gene, I think he knew what the noble America we want to be is.
EUGENE ROBINSON, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.
MATTHEWS: And he said, I am that. And it was unbelievable. He unlocked the key.
ROBINSON: No, he was amazing.
I first met him in -- it was before that. He was a senator. And he and Joe Lieberman and I think Mary Landrieu convened a Senate hearing on Katrina reconstruction in New Orleans. So I went on the trip, because I wanted to meet this guy. Everything was saying he was going to run.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
ROBINSON: And the one thing I remember -- the two things I remember from that trip, one, the obvious charisma.
Wherever our big sort of bus stopped with the senators on and this and that, their home state senator was there, Mary Landrieu. And Joe Lieberman was very well known. Everybody wanted to talk to Obama.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
ROBINSON: And the other thing was, at the actual hearing, he just expertly grilled these reconstruction officials who were not doing their jobs, or weren`t doing them very well.
And he would have been a great DA. He kind of laid these very clever traps that they walked into. It was really -- it was an impressive performance.
MATTHEWS: Michael, I think, sometimes, we have got to get a way from a president for at least -- maybe a decade before we can even look back and see him whole.
What do you think of Obama? Because we`re going to go through right this in the next 20 minutes. So, tell me about what you see now.
MICHAEL BESCHLOSS, NBC PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, I think you have to begin by saying that this was a terrific chief of state. This is someone who, with that family and that stature and his persona, represented this country well around the world and presided wonderfully over this country in that role.
The other thing is that we`re so pressed right now to have sort of an instant read on Obama`s legacy the way that future generations will see him. It is going to depend so much on what follows. I know it`s somewhat frustrating, but let`s say Donald Trump turns out to be an effective president and the economy is looking wonderful in a few years.
You know, as Trump goes -- if Trump goes up, that`s not going to be good for Obama.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
BESCHLOSS: You remember in 1984, Jimmy Carter went back to the Democratic Convention after losing in 1980, and Mo Udall who introduced him had to almost beg the delegates to give him a good reception.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
BESCHLOSS: So, you know, a lot of this has to do with what kind of era we`re living through.
MATTHEWS: When Reverend Jeremiah Wright`s incendiary sermons threatened to derail Obama`s campaign, Obama responded with a thought-provoking and at times blunt speech on race in this country. Here he is explaining his association -- this is the big Philadelphia speech we all think about with his pastor. He`s explaining his relationship with Reverend Wright. Here he goes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I can no more disown him than I can disown my white grandmother -- a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black man who passed her by on the streets, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethic stereotypes that made me cringe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: An amazing experience that he`s been through growing up, just with a white mother and white grandparents, and yet an African-American by the definition that we use, one drop and all that --
EUGENE ROBINSON, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: The first book was really, you know, "Dream from My Father" was really about assembling his identify and his identify was as a black man in America.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
ROBINSON: That was around -- that speech was around the time when I wrote in a column that to be elected, he would have to be seen as the least aggrieved black man in America.
MATTHEWS: That`s a keyword, aggrieved.
ROBINSON: And he was called on in that speech to explain black grievance and black anger in terms that others might get.
MATTHEWS: And feel and he learned it, felt it.
ROBINSON: Exactly.
MATTHEWS: It was an amazing performance, but you almost had to have his biography to deliver that speech, I think.
ROBINSON: It`s an extraordinary story.
Anyway, when Hillary Clinton questioned Obama`s thin resume in her famous 3:00 a.m. phone call advertisement, Obama told me that judgment was more important than experience. By the way, voters think that way too. And in remark that foreshadowed things to come, he said he would not hesitate to pursue, I love this, he wouldn`t hesitate to pursue al Qaeda in sovereign countries and he used example of Pakistan. Can this guy see the future?
Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: The most important thing that you need is somebody who going to exercise good judgment. What I`ve said repeatedly is for example, I wouldn`t hesitate to strike against al Qaeda bases and high value targets. If Pakistan is not willing to act, and we have our sights on somebody, we should go after them. I was sharply criticized for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, three years later, after saying that, the president followed through in that tough talk, ordering the raid that, of course, took out, killed Bin Laden in Pakistan, without telling the Pakistani government, just as he foresaw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Tonight, I can report to the American people and to the world that the United States has conducted an operation that killed Osama bin Laden, the leader of al Qaeda, and a terrorist who`s responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent men, women and children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Chris Jansing, I have to tell you that during that correspondence dinner that weekend, when he was as cool as a cucumber, he knew all about this. He was overseeing that operation as commander-in- chief. But there he is carrying out exactly what he said he would do. He wasn`t going to wait for the OK from Islamabad. He was going in to get the bad guy.
CHRIS JANSING, NBC NEWS: Yes, and the other thing about him, I just spent the last couple of weeks talking to aide of his senior advisers, people who have many of them been with him from the beginning, and there were some remarkable consistencies, and the one thing is about how he approaches a decision like that, and then the confidence that he has when he comes to that decision. I mean, he`s the guy who studies.
I was talking to Jason Furman, the head of his Council of Economic Advisers, and he was saying, you know, when he first started giving him papers on the economy, it would sort of like you would write as a paper if you were in a PhD program and it had all of these appendixes and then they found out that he actually read every word of it.
He said, when I get papers, I don`t even go to the last pages. And he was highlighting them and making notes on them.
Other people have said, when you go into meeting with him, he knows the stuff you are given him. He says, I don`t have to repeat it for me. I have read it. Where do we go from here?
And I think that was probably the most stunning example in that picture, you know, that Pete Souza took of everybody in the Situation Room. It`s so iconic now. But that was a really clear indication how decisive he could be and confident in spite of the fact that really the biggest knock on him from many people when he ran for president was that he just didn`t have the experience.
MATTHEWS: Well, we`re now reading today, right today about the Trump people, his national security people are not reading apparently any of the papers being presented to them by the outgoing administration. That`s pretty scary.
JANSING: There`s so many ways there`s such a shocking disconnect between outgoing and incoming administration.
MATTHEWS: Well said.
Eugene Robinson, Michael Beschloss and Chris Jansing are going to stick with us for some really good stuff coming up now. Our special report "The Audacity of Barack Obama" continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: You`re looking at a live picture outside Washington Union Station that`s where we`re expecting President-elect Trump. He`s going to be attending an inaugural eve dinner there tonight.
Tomorrow, MSNBC will have all day coverage of Donald Trump`s inauguration. Our coverage starts early in the morning with "MORNING JOE". And then, beginning at 10:00 Eastern, I`ll be anchoring along with Brian Williams and Rachel Maddow, as we cover all the live inaugural events of the day, but also the uncertainty felt by a lot of people as we head into the Trump presidency. We`re going to catch the protests, too, don`t forget and don`t worry about that one.
And tomorrow night on HARDBALL, we`ll be joined by special guest. This will preview Saturday`s Women`s March in Washington. The actor they say that now, the actor Debra Messing, a big, I heard, a fan of HARDBALL, which has always made me happy.
And we`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: We`re back with HARDBALL special report on the audacity, that was his word, by the way, of Barack Obama and his remarkable journey of the last 12 years.
Well, President Obama can claim many big accomplishments throughout his two terms. But he also faced a number of setbacks. During a HARDBALL college tour, we interviewed him in 2013. I asked him how his view of himself and presidency had changed over five years in office. And here`s what he told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: It makes me humbler, as opposed to cockier about what you as an individual can do. You recognize that you`re just part of a sweep of history and your job really is to push the boulder up the hill a little bit before somebody else pushes it up a little further and the task never stops of perfecting our union.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: I`m back with MSNBC political analyst Eugene Robinson of "The Washington Post," Michael Beschloss is a presidential historian for us, and Chris Jansing with NBC News, of course.
Michael, you know, in the beginning, he said he was going to be a transformational president like Ronald Reagan, not some sort of next step kind of guy. And yet in the midterm around -- what was it, 2007 or 2008, he started -- at the halfway mark he seemed to be humbler, but yet when I look back at his accomplishments, if I were him I`d go back to saying, "Yes, I was transformational."
Your thoughts? how does he stand?
BESCHLOSS: Yes, you know, I think he was transformational. You know, begin with that health care act which, you know, now, we know who in retrospect happened it seems inevitable.
But an awful lot of presidents for decades have tried to bring health care to all Americans, he came pretty close to doing it. No matter what has happened since -- what will happen under the Trump administration, plus save this country from another Great Depression with this long economic expansion.
But the thing I think we will look at as you`re suggesting is you get to -- in losing Congress in 2010, he faced an opposition in Congress for the next six years that was very opposed to doing deals with him, very much unlike Bill Clinton in 1995 and `96 could go to Bob Dole and Newt Gingrich and get things like a balanced budget, welfare reform. Obama would say if he were here tonight, I did not have people like that on the other side who were willing to deal.
MATTHEWS: And he also was able to save the auto industry, things tonight, I got to tell you.
BESCHLOSS: Indeed, indeed.
MATTHEWS: I`m being reminded all the time, marriage equality. He really was the godfather pushing that, he and Joe Biden even.
BESCHLOSS: Absolutely.
MATTHEWS: Anyway, gun violence cast a dark shadow over this president`s two terms. In the eight years as president, he addressed this country 14 times in the immediate aftermath of the new mass shooting. Most memorably, perhaps was this moment from his eulogy for the Reverend Clementa Pinckney in South Carolina.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA (singing): Amazing grace, how sweet the sound --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Soulful.
Anyway, President also described the mass shooting at Sandy Hook elementary school in 2012 as the worst day of his presidency. Here he is again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: From every family who never imagined that their loved one would be taken from our lives by a bullet from a gun. Every time I think about those kids it gets me mad. And by the way, it happens on the streets of Chicago everyday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: That wasn`t a political remark. That was a passion of a guy who feels for his country.
ROBINSON: Yes.
MATTHEWS: And kids who were killed either by other kids or killed by police or whatever, or bad guys. Just generally bad guys.
ROBINSON: If you talk to President Obama about the Sandy Hook shooting, you realize how deeply that affected him, and, you know, all the mass shootings. And it was -- it was really frustrating to him that he couldn`t move the needle, not even a little bit. Not even in the wake of just one of the most horrific things we`ve ever seen in this country.
It was enormously frustrating. I don`t know, you know, how else he could have approached it. I don`t know what else he could have done.
MATTHEWS: Well, I`ll say in counter to that, I don`t agree with everything he said. The emotion, I have to tell you, Michael Beschloss is right, he was a fantastic chief of state. He represented our emotion as people, not just a -- but he seemed to be a father right that moment when he was crying about kids.
BESCHLOSS: Absolutely.
MATTHEWS: He felt these were kids. And that`s what you want from a chief of state, a guy who represents or a woman who represents our country personally.
Anyway, Gene Robinson, great to have you on as always, especially tonight. This a kind of an eve, isn`t it?
ROBINSON: Oh, yes.
MATTHEWS: It`s not exactly Christmas Eve, but it`s an eve.
ROBINSON: It`s an eve.
MATTHEWS: Michael, we`re maybe facing the green mile tomorrow morning. But we`re facing something, Michael.
And, Chris Jansing, a great reporter, it`s great to work with you, Chris Jansing.
JANSING: Thank you.
MATTHEWS: When we return, let me finish tonight with the cosmic shift coming our way tomorrow at 12:00 noon, high noon Eastern Standard Time.
You`re watching HARDBALL.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with a cosmic shift coming our way tomorrow. At 12:00 noon Eastern Standard Time.
First, there`s nothing standard about this presidential inauguration, we`re going through some radically partisan changing of the guard before, think of Thomas Jefferson coming in after defeating John Adams. Andrew Jackson beating Adams` son. Think of Abraham Lincoln arriving to take the oath. Of Franklin Roosevelt riding in the car with Herbert Hoover. General Eisenhower replacing Harry Truman. Jack Kennedy replacing Eisenhower. Ronald Reagan coming to power.
But all these were a transfer of office from one party to the other, federalist to Jeffersonian, republic to the democrat, democrat to republic. And in other words, the usual rotation of the two mainstream parties, one establishment to the other establishment, one group of usual suspects back- and-forthing with the other set of usual suspects.
But this event tomorrow is something completely different. Just as most of us did, I did, get in election wrong, there`s little likelihood we`ll get this arriving presidency right. So, this is our predicament and I think my job description is to keep a sharp eye on what President Trump says and what he does.
If he dials back the clock on action to counter climate change, if he tries to suppress voting, especially by minorities, if he moves to deport children brought here at a young age, we need to lean on that First Amendment horn of ours and blow hard on it.
The same goes for when and if he does beneficial things for the country. When he finds, for example, a way to save and create American jobs.
The worst trend in modern American politics is for one party to understood cut the other party even when the other party is trying to do something good. It used to be one party spent its efforts keeping the other party from being corrupt. In contemporary times, the main purpose of the opposition it seems has been to keep the party in power from doing something good.
So, beginning tomorrow at noon, I intend to keep asking the tough questions, keep burrowing in to get real answers trying my darndest to get some truth from power.
And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.
"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.
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