Hardball with Chris Matthews, Transcript 12/27/2016
Date: December 27, 2016
Guest: Matthew Belloni, Anthony Scaramucci, Ken Vogel, Amy Chozick, Azi
Paybarah, Caitlin Huey-Burns
STEVE KORNACKI, GUEST HOST: The world according to Donald Trump.
Let`s play HARDBALL.
Hey, good evening. I`m Steve Kornacki, in for Chris Matthews.
According to Donald Trump, the United Nations is little more than a social
club, the president-elect tweeting yesterday, quote, “The United Nations
has such great potential, but right now, it is just a club for people to
get together, talk, and have a good time. So sad.”
Trump was highly critical of the U.N. Security Council vote last Friday
that condemned Israel`s settlement building on land claimed by the
Palestinians. The United States abstained from that vote, but breaking
from past precedent, it declined to veto the resolution, Israel now
accusing the Obama administration of orchestrating the vote, the White
House denying that claim.
After the vote, Trump tweeted things at the U.N., quote, “will be
different” when he becomes president. And over the weekend, he said, “Big
loss yesterday for Israel and the United Nations will make it much harder
to negotiate peace. Too bad, but we will get it done anyway.”
Besides his comments this weekend about the Middle East and the United
Nations, Trump also suggested he`s willing to engage in a nuclear arms
race, and he called the pre-Trump world a “gloomy place without any hope.”
So what does all of this tell us about Trump`s world view? I`m joined by
NBC`s Hallie Jackson in Palm Beach, Florida, “The Washington Post`s” Robert
Costa and HuffingtonPost political editor Sam Stein. Both of them are
So Hallie, let me start with you. In terms of a formal policy taking shape
here right now, Donald Trump obviously very outspoken on this issue of
Israel, the United Nations resolution, the Obama administration breaking
with past U.S. foreign policy precedent, not backing the Israeli government
on that one, Trump saying, Hey, when I`m in there, we will do that.
What is the Trump doctrine that`s coming into focus right now? Is there
HALLIE JACKSON, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and I think it`s fairly clear by
the person he has appointed to be the ambassador to Israel, David Friedman,
a rather controversial pick.
Steve, this is somebody who is considered by outside analysts to be even to
the right of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, somebody who has supported
settlements. You look at, for example, Donald Trump, the president-
elect`s, pledge to move the embassy to Jerusalem, again a controversial
move and one that raises a lot of eyebrows among experts in the Middle East
peace process, who wonder just how helpful that will actually be to that
You look at who Donald Trump wants to put in place to try to maneuver some
of these pieces around, not just, for example, Friedman, but even his own
son-in-law, Jared Kushner. The president-elect has talked publicly in the
past about maybe having Kushner, who is Jewish, be some kind of envoy to
Israel, to sort of be a part of that discussion.
One thing is clear, he is developing a relationship and has developed a
relationship with Benjamin Netanyahu. I`m told by a transition official
that the two have not spoken in the last five days or so since this U.N.
Security Council resolution happened, but clearly, the two of them
developing a far warmer relationship, at least at this preliminary stage in
the transition, than Netanyahu has with President Obama.
KORNACKI: And Sam Stein, it seems here, too, there`s also – you got this
sort of circumstance here where Obama, the outgoing president – he chooses
the closing weeks of his presidency, the transition weeks, to make a new
statement for his administration when it comes to Israel, when it comes to
the issue with the Palestinians, the Middle East peace process.
He chooses the transition period to make that statement, to break with the
past precedent, just as Donald Trump is sending indications that he`s going
to be more closely aligned with Netanyahu. Hard to miss Obama almost
trying to send a message to Trump here, it feels like.
SAM STEIN, HUFFINGTONPOST, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Sure. Well, first
things first. It`s not necessarily a new statement. The administration
has – past administrations have been critical of settlements in the West
Bank and Israeli settlements there.
What`s new here is allowing the United Nations resolution, condemning the
settlements to go through. The expectation was that the president would
veto that as a sitting member of the U.N. Security Council. And he didn`t.
And I think one of the things that we can ascertain from that is that this
administration has long thought that the government – the Bibi Netanyahu
government`s approach to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict was basically
unsuitable for the conditions of peace, that if you were a believer in the
two-state solution, you had to at least publicly condemn and then publicly
act on the condemnation of those settlements. And so, obviously, at the
door, Obama makes this very bold gesture.
What I`m struck at is that usually during these transition periods, the
incoming president will defer to the sitting president`s…
STEIN: … foreign policy. We only have one president at a time. Trump
is not doing any of that. He`s jumping right into this, sending very
strong signals to the Netanyahu government that he will do what he can to -
- I`m curious to see where it goes because he`s being to told or encouraged
to take some action against the United Nations for allowing this to happen,
such as, for instance, cutting off funding. If that`s the end result of
KORNACKI: Well, one of Donald Trump`s top allies, former Arkansas governor
Mike Huckabee, echoed Trump`s criticism of the United Nations. He said
today Trump should stop funding the organization.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE HUCKABEE (R-AR), FMR. GOV., FMR. PRES. CANDIDATE: We provide most of
the funding for the U.N., and it`s time for us to reevaluate it. I`m not
sure there`s any value to the U.N. It`s a joke. It`s a worthless
organization. It has no moral authority. Zero.
And it`s basically – Trump is right, a great big club for people to go and
have parking violations in New York City and Manhattan, where they never
have to pay for them. What a worthless expenditure and waste of taxpayers`
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: Well, Robert Costa, Sam Stein just mentioned it there. We have
Mike Huckabee, with that idea of taking funding away from the United
Nations. We also had Trump there flirting with the idea of bringing John
Bolton, who`s talked about basically just getting rid of the physical
building the United Nations is in – Trump seems to be enamored of him, at
In terms of the United States, its relationship with the United Nations as
an institution, what can we expect with Donald Trump as president?
ROBERT COSTA, “WASHINGTON POST,” MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Based on my
reporting, Trump has certainly in his inner circle antagonism toward the
U.N. This is not a group, an institution, they`re going to embrace.
But if you look at their pick for U.N. ambassador for the United States,
Governor Nikki Haley of South Carolina, you do see Trump trying to use that
position as a way to show a different kind of face to the world, someone
with a different background, a different temperament. So he may not put an
emphasis on it in his foreign policy dealing most with Steve Bannon, Jared
Kushner, Rex Tillerson, if he`s confirmed as secretary of state, but he`ll
have Haley there as someone who`s an asset and a hawk, who`s a liaison (ph)
to the Congress and the rest of the world.
KORNACKI: Last week, Trump also called on the United States to strengthen
and expand its nuclear capabilities, something no president has publicly
said that way in decades. On Friday, asked about those comments, Trump
told Mika Brzezinski, “Let it be an arms race. We`ll outmatch them at
every pass and outlast them all.”
That was just the latest in a series of comments about nuclear weapons that
have unnerved Trump`s critics. During the campaign, he refused to take a
nuclear strike off the table in the Middle East or even Europe. He said he
was OK with more countries getting nuclear weapons.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I was against Iraq. I`d be the
last one to use the nuclear weapons.
CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST, HARDBALL: Can you tell the Middle East we`re not
using a nuclear weapon?
TRUMP: I would never say that. I would never take any of my cards off
MATTHEWS: How about Europe? We won`t use it in Europe.
TRUMP: I`m not going to take it off the table.
MATTHEWS: You might use it in Europe?
TRUMP: No, I don`t think so, but…
MATTHEWS: Why not just say it, I`ll never use a nuclear weapon in Europe?
TRUMP: I am not taking cards off the table.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you would rule in the possibility of using, right,
nuclear weapons against ISIS.
TRUMP: Well, I`m never going to rule anything out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
TRUMP: And I wouldn`t want to say – even if I felt it wasn`t – I
wouldn`t want to tell you that…
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
TRUMP: … because at a minimum, I want them to think maybe we would use
it. North Korea has nukes. Japan has a problem with that. I mean, they
have a big problem with that. Maybe they would, in fact, be better off if
they defend themselves from North Korea.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With nukes?
TRUMP: Maybe they would be better off – including with nukes, yes,
including with nukes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And South Korea with nukes?
TRUMP: South Korea is right next door, just so understand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: Well, Hallie Jackson, we said with regard – at the beginning of
the show – to Israel and Palestine, the Trump doctrine, what it actually
means – I`m also curious when it comes to this question of nuclear
proliferation because on the one hand…
KORNACKI: … this is the kind of talk certainly on Twitter we`re not
accustomed to seeing. On the other hand, the back story here is Vladimir
Putin, the Russian president, last week, his year-end press conference. He
talks about developing nuclear capability that is capable of penetrating
And then after he says that, Trump puts this tweet out that gets everybody
talking. So is it a new doctrine that he`s suggesting here? Or is this
just – this is a preview of how he`s going to respond to that kind of
rhetoric from Putin or another country`s leader?
JACKSON: Listen, I think that the timing of this particular tweet was
interesting, given that it came, as you talk about, as Russia was
discussing its hope to strengthen its nuclear capabilities. Remember that
you saw some of Donald Trump`s top aides try to walk back his statement a
bit, one spokesperson saying he`s talking about, in fact, nonproliferation
of nuclear weapons, even though that seemed to directly contradict what
Trump himself said in that message.
Is it a new policy? Listen, even though there are some in Donald Trump`s
inner circle who will say, Hey, he`s not president yet, he`s not dictating
policy just yet, he is still using Twitter as his preferred form of
communication and coming out with what appear to be pronouncements, his
opinions on different major and serious policy issues, including nuclear
And so diminishing that, I think, is something that comes with some risk,
given that this is the way that the president-elect is choosing to
communicate with the American public.
KORNACKI: Yes, Sam, I`m curious what you make of that because Hallie
raises the point, look, we`re not used to seeing a president-elect, a
president of the United States, say something as sort of dramatic as Donald
Trump did, let alone saying it on Twitter. On the other hand, when you
start to look at the actual policies that are in place, I know the Obama
administration has been calling for, has pushed Congress to spend a lot
more money on upgrading the United States nuclear capability, maybe even,
you know, developing better, more enhanced nuclear weapons, nuclear
So in terms of the policy, I`m trying to figure out how different this
actually is, what Donald Trump`s out there saying on Twitter.
STEIN: Well, I think everyone`s trying to figure out how different this
is, in part because it`s kind of silly to build nuclear proliferation
policy when you have 140-character limit. You know, like, this is heavy
stuff. This is deep stuff. I don`t think Twitter is the best mechanism
for talking about it necessarily.
But you know, this is the sort of Trump way about doing things. And with
respect to nuclear policy, I mean, your montage during the campaign, equal
parts frightening and illuminating, really gets to sort of how he sees the
world, which is that if everyone has a nuclear weapon, no one will attack
anyone else. And that`s sort of the ultimate theory of deterrence, I
Now, there was an interesting thing that came up in the context of last
week`s remarks, which was back in the `80s, Trump talked to this writer
about this vision that he had, where the U.S. and Russia were sort of in
this bilateral agreement where they would house all the nuclear weapons of
the world, essentially, and be a monitor for everyone else trying to
I`m not sure if that`s what he`s envisioning here, but this is sort of
what`s troubling to a lot of people, is that it seems to be that you have a
commander-in-chief in waiting kind of winging it on Twitter in response to
these articles that he`s reading. And the stakes really could not be
higher than when you`re discussing nuclear proliferation.
KORNACKI: Well, Robert Costa, you`ve talked to him. You`ve interviewed
him. You have a pretty good, I think, read into Donald Trump. I mean, is
there – is he playing sort of a calculated game here? Is this Donald
Trump – I mean, he talks all the time about strength, about toughness. Is
this Donald Trump seeing Vladimir Putin, seeing the Russian president make
a statement about nuclear proliferation and basically trying to match it,
trying to say, Hey, you`re going to sound tough, I`m going to sound
tougher. Or is that the theory behind this?
COSTA: There`s certainly calculations behind the scenes right now as
Trump`s at Mar-a-Lago. I`m told by several top sources that Trump really
is rethinking global order and that he is not tied to a traditional
Republican world view. And so he`s rethinking, Does the U.s. Need to be
hostile to Russia? How can he use the relationship with Russia and the
relationship with China and perhaps trade negotiations and foreign policy
KORNACKI: Yes, is this – it`s interesting, too, because we`ve talked
about and it`s been so controversial in this country, the idea of a
different relationship with Russia, and Trump`s openness to that has been
clear. But simultaneously, sort of getting into this back and forth with
his sort of indirect back and forth with Putin, about who`s tougher.
There`s sort of this combined friendliness on the one hand and adversarial
nature to the relationship on the other hand.
COSTA: One major test will come after he`s inaugurated. How does he work
with Vladimir Putin and Russia in the Middle East? Does he actually have
some kind of joint effort to go after ISIS, maybe have a complicated
relationship with Assad? That`s going to be something to watch.
KORNACKI: All right. Robert Costa, Hallie Jackson, Sam Stein, thanks to
all of you for joining us.
STEIN: Thanks, Steve.
KORNACKI: All right.
And coming up, President Obama said he could have won a third term if he
was running. Donald Trump says, No way. That fight is ahead, along with
what President Obama is promising to do once Donald Trump takes office.
Plus, Trump gearing up for some major fights with Congress over some of his
cabinet picks. We`re going to dig into which nominees could face the
toughest confirmation battles.
And a top Trump ally apologizes for saying some really offensive things
about President Obama and the first lady. Carl Palladino says he`s not a
racist, he`s just wired up.
Finally, the HARDBALL roundtable will be here with three things you might
not know heading into 2017.
This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.
KORNACKI: Tonight, Hollywood is mourning the loss of a major star. Carrie
Fisher, who played Princess Leia in the original “Star Wars” trilogy died
this morning after suffering a heart attack last Friday on a flight from
London to Los Angeles.
Fisher became a breakout star and pop icon as Princess Leia. She went on
to appear in a slew of other films and television shows, including “When
Harry Met Sally” and “The Blues Brother.”
She was also a prolific writer. She adapted her 1987 novel “Postcards From
the Edge” into a box office hit. Fisher, of course, was born into
Hollywood royalty. Her mother was actress Debbie fisher. Her father was
the pop singer Eddie Fisher.
For more on the impact of her life and her career, we`re joined now by
Matthew Belloni, the executive editor of “The Hollywood Reporter.” So
Matthew, obviously, a very sort of varied career there, a writer, she was a
script doctor, a lot of big-name sort of projects she was attached to
through the years.
But it`s Princess Leia, it`s “Star Wars” that everybody will remember her
for, I think, first and foremost. And you think to that character,
princess Leia, you think what that character means to our culture, what
“Star Wars” means to it, Carrie Fisher is just indispensable to that.
MATTHEW BELLONI, “HOLLYWOOD REPORTER”: Absolutely. And they were the
bookends of her career. I mean, she got her start in “Shampoo,” the Warren
Beatty movie, as a teenager, but everybody knew her and loved her as
Princess Leia in the 1977 original. She reprised the character last year
in “Star Wars: The Force Awakens,” and she`s set to appear in episode 8 of
“Star Wars,” which is coming out next year.
So those are kind of the two bookends of her career, and it`s what she`ll
be remembered for, I think.
KORNACKI: And what is that? I mean, it was 1977. It was basically –
it`s 40 years ago when at first “Star Wars” came out, and here we are 40
years later, they are still making new “Star Wars.” Everybody knows people
in their lives who are obsessed with “Star Wars.”
What was it back then that “Star Wars” tapped into in this country, in our
culture, that it`s still tapping into today, 40 years later?
BELLONI: I think it`s a lot of things, and Carrie Fisher was a big part of
it. It was something that people had never seen before on the screen. It
was a big, epic, mythological story that had these iconic characters. And
Princess Leia was a feisty, powerful, strong-headed princess who was the
leader of the resistance against this evil empire, and she embodied that
She was only 19 when she was cast in the role, and she was playing opposite
actors – I mean, Harrison Ford was much older than her, and she really
held her own and she made it an iconic character that people were still
clamoring to see 40 years later.
KORNACKI: Yes, right, she was 19 years old. And the character lived with
her for the next 40 years of her life. How much do you think she enjoyed
that, she enjoyed audiences associating her so closely with that, versus
how much of that was a burden on her?
BELLONI: She was very open about her love/hate relationship with the
character. She was born into a Hollywood family, and she knew everything
that came along with that. So she kind of accepted that. And she was very
candid throughout her career about the impact that that fame and fortune
had on her, both positive and negative, with the drug abuse, alcoholism.
She experienced bipolarism, depression.
And she not only was open and candid about it, but she incorporated it into
her art as a writer, writing “Postcards From the Edge,” writing a one-woman
show, “Wishful Drinking.” She was very candid in every aspect of how she
lived her life.
KORNACKI: All right, Matthew Belloni from “The Hollywood Reporter,” thanks
for the time. Appreciate it.
And HARDBALL`s going to be back right after this.
KORNACKI: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
President Obama is set to leave the White House in a little over three
weeks, but as he said with confidence yesterday, he thinks he could have
beaten Donald Trump if he`d been allowed to seek a third term.
Here`s the president in an interview with David Axelrod.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am confident in this
vision because I`m confident that, if I – if I had run again and
articulated it, I think I could have mobilized a majority of the American
people to rally behind it.
I know that in conversations that I have had with people around the
country, even some people who disagreed with me, they would say the vision,
the direction that you point towards is the right one.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
KORNACKI: Despite his improved relationship with President Obama, the
comment clearly rattled president-elect Trump. He responded on Twitter
soon after that interview was released.
He said – quote – “President Obama said that he thinks he would have won
against me. He should say that, but I say no way. Jobs leaving, ISIS,
Obamacare, et cetera.”
And he followed that up late today saying: “President Obama campaigned hard
and personally in very important swing states and lost. The voters wanted
to make America great again.”
According to Gallup, President Obama`s approval rating this month has
reached highs not seen since 2009. Their latest daily tracking poll shows
that 56 percent of Americans say they approve of the job he is doing.
I`m joined now by Anthony Scaramucci. He`s on the executive committee of
the Trump transition. And Jonathan Capehart, an opinion writer with “The
Washington Post” and an MSNBC political analyst.
And, actually, Anthony, we were just talking about this in the last block.
I wonder if this is an extension. We`re trying to figure out who Donald
Trump is and what kind of a philosophy he has. Is this the, you think
you`re a tough guy, I`m going to show you I`m tougher? You`re President
Obama. You think you would have won the election. I`m going to make sure
I feel I have to go out there and say I would have won it?
ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, TRUMP TRANSITION TEAM MEMBER: I don`t really see it
I see it more of a spirited, jocular rivalry. They`re both very
competitive guys. You caught the president-elect`s first tweet, which, of
course he should say that, meaning the president should say he could beat
But I like it. I think it`s part of American rivalry, if you will,
partisan rivalry. And I don`t think there`s anything really…
KORNACKI: I`m curious. Is that a window into Trump? Because I thought
one of the most revealing moments in trying to figure out who Trump was
during the campaign, it was in one of the debates. I think it was the
second one, when they said, say something nice about your opponent.
Hillary Clinton, the nice thing she said is the nice thing every politician
says, got a great family. What Donald Trump said about what Hillary
Clinton, though, is, she`s tough.
And I read that as Trump sees the world as everything is competition, and,
in competition, there`s no rules and you hit the other guy with everything
you have got.
SCARAMUCCI: But I think you, Steve, you have got to give him a little more
credit than that.
She answered it the way you would answer that interview question on a job,
what`s your weakness, and you say, oh, I care too much. That`s the classic
answer. He looked around to the audience and looked to the 60 million
people and said, she`s a fighter. In addition to be a great mom, she`s a
So, I see it very differently. I think he respects competition, he
respects the competitive process. And at the end of the day, I think he
likes it. And so I think when the president-elect is going after the
president, the current president, in that way, it`s very jocular. It`s two
guys – I`m sure they`re going to play some golf together. That`s my
It`s two guys on the golf course that are in a heated battle over what
their handicap is, and they`re going to see who wins.
KORNACKI: I just – I don`t mean to belabor it, but this is the thing I
have been dying to know about Trump. Is any of it personal?
SCARAMUCCI: I don`t mean to respect you, but he`s the president-elect
really. He`s not really Trump anymore.
KORNACKI: The president-elect.
SCARAMUCCI: Yes. Yes.
KORNACKI: Is any of it personal?
KORNACKI: When he says these things about Bill Clinton, for instance, in
the campaign, and people say he might go play golf with him again, is it
because, in his mind, none of it is personal?
SCARAMUCCI: I don`t see him seeing it as personal.
Look, I`m on the executive committee of the transition team. And just look
at the outreach to Governor Romney, outreach to other Democrats, outreach
to not other Democrats, but Democrats. Romney`s obviously a Republican.
But my point is, is that he went to the never-Trump community, the
Democrats. And we have opened the tent to as many people as possible. And
if you go to these meetings and you talk to the president-elect, he`s all
about unifying the nation.
But he is a competitive guy, and I sort of like it.
KORNACKI: And, Jonathan Capehart, obviously, President Obama a competitive
And, of course, the interview there, we should point out for people who
haven`t made the connection, David Axelrod was the guy doing the interview.
He was the guy who was the architect of those Obama campaigns.
But what do you make of the point, the argument the president is making
there? He says, hey, I would have won this election if I had have been
JONATHAN CAPEHART, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, no, he actually said, I think
I could have.
I think one of the problems that President Obama has had throughout his
eight years is that he has a tendency, when asked questions, hypothetical
questions, he sort of responds at a remove and starts to take on the role
that I am presuming right now that you take on from time to time, that –
as a commentator, an analyst, a pundit, and looking at his own
administration from a remove and talking about what could happen, what
might happen, what he thinks ought to happen.
And the other thing is, we have to keep in mind is the president is giving
all – giving not many, but a few exit interviews, where he gets to –
really does get a chance to take a step back and talk about things, what he
got right, what he could have done better, and what he thinks could have
happened if he ran for president again.
I think, you know, the president is looking at his track record, at his
approval ratings, at the mood of the country, because, like president-elect
Donald Trump, who campaigned around the country for two years, the
president`s been the president for eight years.
And we saw on the campaign trail the president was able to pull out
hundreds, thousands of people at campaign rallies. It`s just unfortunate
for the Democratic Party, for the president`s legacy that it wasn`t enough
KORNACKI: Yes, it clearly – yes, I mean, if I had a dollar for every
Democrat down the stretch in that campaign who was telling me, hey, Obama`s
approval rating is 58 percent, can`t lose now.
And they lost. It didn`t transfer over clearly. In his interview with
Axelrod, though, the president also spoke about his intentions after he
leaves office. Listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
OBAMA: I have to be quiet for a while. And I don`t mean politically. I
mean internally. I have to still myself.
You have to get back in tune with your center and to process what`s
happened before you make a bunch of good decisions. Now, that doesn`t mean
that if a year from now or a year-and-a-half from now or two years from
now, that I might not weigh in.
You know, I`m still a citizen. And that carries with it duties and
(END AUDIO CLIP)
KORNACKI: Anthony, I thought that was a very interesting answer there.
The precedent on this, you think of George W. Bush, he`s basically been
silent when it comes to policy during President Obama`s term. That also
comes from his father, George H.W. Bush. He believed very much the former
president should not be weighing in with policy disagreements.
But you have Obama there basically saying he seems to intend to do that,
but is reserving the right, maybe, to speak up. From Donald Trump`s
perspective, is there an expectation here about Barack Obama? Would there
be a problem if Barack Obama was speaking up with criticism? Would there
be an expectation of deference?
SCARAMUCCI: Listen, I don`t think so, but I think going back to the
Bushes, I think they felt that the job is so hard, Steven, that let`s not
put more burden and partisanship into the presidency itself.
It`s sort of this unique club. There`s four or five living presidents now.
I guess, with President Obama, there`ll be five again. And so why put that
person through that level of critique, if you will?
My guess – and I don`t know the president – I mean, I went to law school
with President Obama 30 years ago. I don`t know him super well. But my
guess is, he`s probably not going to opine about the Trump administration.
I think he will probably adhere to what the two Bushes did, because whether
you like the president or dislike him on policy, I think he`s a very good
He`s got a great family. And my guess is that he will look at the
institution of the presidency being such that it`s sacrosanct not to do
that. And so my prediction is that he won`t do that. If he does do it, I
will be surprised and I will sort of think it`s odd, given his nature and
given his peaceful transition.
And, by the way, president-elect Trump, if he was here right now, he`d tell
you that the Obama administration has done everything that they can to help
us in the transition.
KORNACKI: Well, you mention – you`re predicting you think Donald Trump
and Barack Obama might be playing golf.
SCARAMUCCI: I think they going to…
KORNACKI: Is he somebody – is Barack Obama as a former president somebody
that Donald Trump is going to be picking up the phone late at night or
wherever calling and just saying, hey?
SCARAMUCCI: I think so.
KORNACKI: What do you think of this?
SCARAMUCCI: I think so, because I think, after the 90-meeting they had, he
came back to New York and expressed to many of us how impressed he was, how
he had a really lengthy conversation about a number of different issues.
And he really enjoyed his time with the president. Again, these guys are
Americans. They`re patriots. They will put the country ahead of each
other. And so my guess is, even though there`s a partisanship and there`s
a divide there in terms of how they think about policy, some of their style
points may be different, at the end of the day, my guess is they`re going
to get along.
And two-and-a-half years from now, whatever he said to David Axelrod, he
will keep to the dictum of not opining on the current president. I just
think that`s part of the sacrosanct nature of the institution of the
presidency. My bet is he adheres to it.
KORNACKI: All right, Anthony Scaramucci with the Trump team, Jonathan
Capehart down in Washington, you, too, thank you both for joining us.
Up next, Donald Trump is getting ready for an inauguration that promises to
be like – unlike – excuse me – any other. He`s also gearing up for some
potentially tough confirmation fights. That`s ahead.
This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.
DARA BROWN, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: I`m Dara Brown. Here`s what`s happening.
Secretary of State John Kerry and Russia`s foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov,
discussed a peace plan for Syria today over the phone. Lavrov warned Kerry
that the U.S. decision to loosen rules on arming Syrian rebels will lead to
President Barack Obama and Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe paying
tribute to those who lost their lives in the 1941 Japanese attack on Pearl
Harbor. Abe gave sincere and everlasting condolences to the U.S. service
members killed. The president says the historic gesture speaks to the
power of reconciliation – back to HARDBALL.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: Who knows the system better than me,
which is why I alone can fix it.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
That was Donald Trump delivering his fiery convention acceptance speech
back in July. Now, as he prepares to be sworn in as the 45th president of
the United States, Trump is expected to pivot from the contentious rhetoric
that characterized his campaign to a more unifying message.
To do that, he has again enlisted Stephen Miller, who wrote Trump`s charged
convention speech, to craft his inaugural address. Politico reports that -
- quote – “Early discussions of the address have focused on laying out
some of the structural problems facing the country, and then framing
Trump`s first-term agenda in more nationalistic than ideological terms.”
Politico is also reporting that the Trump transition is bracing for a
potential showdown over his Cabinet appointments, and is – quote –
“assembling a war room to promote their strengths and fend off criticism
before next month`s confirmation hearings.”
For more, I`m joined now by Ken Vogel, chief investigative reporter at
Ken, thanks for joining us.
So, give us a preview here. It`s January 20. Donald Trump gets his chance
to address tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people in
Washington, tens of millions of people nationally. He is not one, we have
seen, who seems to enjoy giving very formal speeches, but what can we
KEN VOGEL, POLITICO: Well, as we reported, they`re planning a speech that
is heavy on sort of this unifying message that we haven`t really heard a
whole lot from, from Donald Trump.
Even after the election, I think when people were expecting that he would
pivot to sort of sounding more like a president and looking forward to his
presidency, instead, we heard a lot of these grievances, a lot of what was
wrong with the country, and why he won.
He talked a lot about crumbling bridges and roads, about failing schools,
about soaring crime rates, and not so much about what he`s going to do.
Even if his sort of thank you tour, when he went around the country to the
states that he won after the election, those speeches also were written by
this guy, Stephen Miller, who`s going to be writing this inaugural speech.
So it will be a real drastic shift from both Stephen Miller and Donald
Trump, if, in fact, they`re going to pivot and sort of speak in a more
unifying tone about what Donald Trump`s presidency will look like and even
a more optimistic tone.
So, I think we will be watching that, not just in the inaugural speech, but
I think throughout the early stages of his presidency, how much he
continues to sort of harp on what he sees as the problems with our country
that he inherited from his predecessors, vs. what he`s going to do and how
he`s going to bring the country together.
KORNACKI: And what about, we also mentioned there, the potential for some
Now, look, he`s a Republican president. He`s going to have a Republican
Senate. So, traditionally, a couple of these nominees at least get roughed
up, but the opposition party at least on paper is not going to have the
votes to stop any of these. They also don`t have that filibuster. The
Democrats won`t be able to filibuster these things to death.
So of all the picks that are out there so far from Donald Trump, where is
the most potential trouble with these Cabinet picks? And is any one of
them individually actually in danger of being scotched?
VOGEL: Last answer – last question, no, I don`t think that anyone is
going to go down. I don`t think that any of them will be withdrawn either.
We have only saw nine Cabinet picks actually defeated in their confirmation
hearings over the course of American history.
We have seen another 12 who have been withdrawn. I don`t see the potential
for any of that here. What we could see, potentially, are some questions
raised by Republicans about Rex Tillerson in particular, maybe some other
nominees vis-a-vis their positions on Russia.
That`s where we potentially see the most divergence between Donald Trump`s
brand of Republicanism and Republican orthodoxy. We have already heard
Marco Rubio, Lindsey Graham, John McCain raise concerns about Trump`s
stance towards Putin, about Russia meddling in the election, and about Rex
Tillerson`s stance towards Russia.
So, maybe there, but even then, I see it as just really more showmanship,
and that is what, of course, so much of these confirmation hearings tend to
boil down to.
KORNACKI: All right, Ken Vogel from Politico, thanks, as always.
VOGEL: Thanks, Steve.
KORNACKI: All right, up next, the HARDBALL roundtable is going to be here.
They`re going to talk about Trump`s war of words with President Obama, plus
word that Trump`s tweeting isn`t going to be ending once he takes office.
You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.
STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC GUEST HOST: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
Over the weekend, Donald Trump took to Twitter to propose a nuclear arms
race, take credit for the booming economy since his election, and to remind
his followers that he doesn`t care about A-list celebrities coming to his
It is no secret that Trump loves Twitter and here`s what incoming White
House press secretary Sean Spicer had to say about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN SPICER, INCOMING WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He can put his thoughts
out and hear what they`re thinking in a way that no one`s ever been able to
do before. But you`re right, I mean, he does communicate in a much bigger,
way than ever before. And I think that`s going to be just a really
exciting part of the job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: For Trump, Twitter is an effective way of circumventing the
media and speaking directly to 18 million of his closest followers.
For more on Trump`s Christmas week tweet, I`m joined by our roundtable, Amy
Chozick, national political correspondent for “The New York Times,” Azi
Paybarah, senior reporter with “Politico” New York, and Caitlin Huey-Burns,
political reporter with Real Clear Politics.
So, Caitlin, take me through this, you heard Sean Spicer giving a sort of
defense about why Donald Trump loves Twitter, what the sort of upside of it
is. I also remember, though, the last week, I don`t know, week – two
weeks of the campaign, his people actually got the phone away from him, he
wasn`t tweeting. It feels like those were the two best weeks he had
politically. He won the election.
CAITLIN HUEY-BURNS, REAL CLEAR POLITICS: It`s hard to – I mean, there`s a
school of thought that thinks that Trump is doing this strategically.
Every time he tweets is part of a bigger plan to distract us from something
else. There`s another school of thought, of course, that he can`t just
What I see the Twitter strategy being, though, is not necessarily speaking
directly to his supporters or to the American people, because most people
are not on Twitter. It`s really to speak to reporters and have it
disseminated through a kind of – kind of drive the news cycle that way.
He sees and he said this before, he sees Twitter as kind of a mini press
release type of thing. And it`s a way for him to control the narrative
without ever having to address the press if he doesn`t want to. He`s the
only president-elect in modern times that hasn`t held a press conference
during the transition period. We`ll see if he does, next month.
KORNACKI: It`s interesting, too. I try to think about how the press
handles these tweets. Sometimes they`ll be loaded up with information
that`s just not factually accurate and the press will correct them, then
this whole debate ensues. Are you giving it more attention by pointing it
out in the first place?
I know there are people out there who say, hey, the press is being
hypocritical on this. On the one hand, they spend their entire time
saying, we want politicians to be more often, more transparent, not to give
us canned answers. Here`s a guy giving you knee-jerk, often sort of
emotional reactions and then the press says, how dare he do this? Give us
a formal – give us a statement, give us a bland, you know, statement. How
should the press be handling this?
AMY CHOZICK, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I mean, I think – I think Trump has
changed the game in the way that he communicates with the people and the
press and I think the media has to kind of in turn follow. But certainly,
any administration needs to articulate their policy positions in more than
And I would quibble with one thing. I think he is using it to speak
directly to his supporters. And I think it`s something that we have to
give him a little bit of credit for. President Obama, obviously, ran a
brilliant campaign in 2008. But once he was president, there was a sense
that he was somewhat cut off from the supporters that elected him. You
know, you saw that play out in health care.
So, Trump has this very powerful tool to disseminate whatever is going on
in his head at the moment to millions of people.
AZI PAYBARAH, POLITICO: Well, just two things. Number one, tweeting is
not transparency. Transparency is providing information, especially
information that might be unflattering to you. That`s the level of –
that`s the marker of transparency.
And secondly, as we saw with Joe Trippi and the Howard D. campaigned from a
million years ago, people can use technology usually in one of two ways.
Either as a megaphone to just amplify a one-way message, or as like a
telephone to connect people and communicate.
Trump is using this as a megaphone. He`s not really receiving information
on Twitter and he`s a person who is very much visually driven. He watches
television. He likes people who look the part.
So, the idea that he`s somehow amassing vast amounts of information and
being sensitive to what people are tweeting and trends that are happening
is ridiculous. He`s using this to circumvent press conferences, not unlike
what Obama did when he first started doing town hall meetings.
CHOZICK: The Obama White House does this.
And his press – and his events were largely him talking to television
cameras, literally over the heads of reporters.
CHOZICK: And the Flickr account, the official White House, not allowing
photographers to photograph certain things, but they started this Flickr
and Instagram and all these beautiful, glossy pictures.
KORNACKI: And there`s two types of transparency. I guess there`s
transparency, as the press defines it. Where are your tax returns? Give
us information on the businesses, you know, for conflicts of interest.
But there`s also transparency in a sense I think we`re so used to this
dance in politics and probably every facet of formal, professional life,
where, you know, somebody is fired from your company or leaves your company
and everybody issues these very polite statements. So-and-so is leaving to
spend more time with her family. So-and-so was very dedicated and thankful
for the time here.
And Donald Trump, somebody says something nasty about him, the answer
isn`t, I have great respect for so-and-so. Donald Trump will go to Twitter
and will be very transparent about his feelings, about his emotions, in a
way we just – there is no precedent that I can think of?
CHOZICK: And that`s refreshing for a lot of people, especially when he was
coming after Obama who is much more careful and thoughtful about everything
that comes out of his mouth. I covered Hillary Clinton`s campaign and to
get that kind of raw glimpse into what she was really thinking was
KORNACKI: There couldn`t have been more of a contrast.
CHOZICK: Every tweet was focus grouped, you know? So there is something
refreshing about this kind of glimpse into the Trump id every time he picks
up his phone.
KORNACKI: All right. We`ve got to squeeze a quick break in. The
roundtable is sticking with us.
Up next, a top Trump ally apologizes for his racially charged comments
about the Obamas.
This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.
KORNACKI: All right. You can play HARDBALL all week long online. Follow
HARDBALL on Twitter and Instagram and like the show on Facebook. You`ll
get access to exclusive interviews and videos as we head into what promises
to be a very busy 2017.
We`ll be right back.
KORNACKI: We are back.
Former New York gubernatorial candidate Carl Paladino, he was an honorary
co-chair of Donald Trump`s campaign in New York. He issues an apology
today for remarks he made to “Artvoice”, that is a weekly newspaper in
Last week, Paladino was asked what he would most like to see happen in
2017. His response, quote, “Obama catches mad cow disease after being
caught having relations with a Herford. He dies before his trial.”
He was then asked what he would like to see go away in 2017. His response,
quote, “Michelle Obama. I`d like to see her return to being a male and let
loose in the outback of Zimbabwe where she lives comfortably in a cave with
Maxie, the gorilla.”
The Trump campaign disavowed the comments, telling “USA Today” that his
comments, quote, “are absolutely reprehensible and they serve no place in
our public discourse.” In his apology, Paladino said, quote, “I wanted to
say something as sarcastic and hurtful as possible. I was wired up, primed
to be human and make a mistake. I could not have made a worse choice in
the words I used to express my feelings.”
Back now with the roundtable, Amy Chozick, Azi Paybarah, Caitlin Huey-
So, Azi, I almost – look, we put the comments out there. He has
apologized for these things. So, let`s put the comments themselves aside
for a minute. But Carl Paladino, if not this in particular, has a history
of making very inflammatory, very provocative comments.
As we say, he was a New York candidate for governor. You covered him. You
know something about him.
Here`s what I`m curious about. A lot of people looked at Carl Paladino and
his rise in New York politics a few years ago and they said, you saw there
the roots of Donald Trump a few years later.
PAYBARAH: Right. He was a precursor to the anger that the Republican
voters ultimately sought comfort in by voting for Trump. If you look at
the map of New York when he ran against Andrew Cuomo, almost the entire
state looked red because so many counties were angry and upset and felt
that New York state government was so broken that they would rather go with
someone who was volatile, offensive, uncertain about policies and was going
to be the bull in the China shop.
So, when he comes across and apologizes for something, that`s really sort
of surprising since he had spent so much time sort of not caring about
other people`s over – what he would consider over-sensitivities to these
kinds of remarks.
KORNACKI: That line, I don`t want to litigate this individual one. We put
it out there, it`s terrible. And he did, you know, whatever it`s worth,
make of it what you want, he did say he apologizes for it.
But that line in there of intentionally being sarcastic, trying to say
something that was going to provoke – I wonder if you look at Donald Trump
and the provocative, inflammatory things he said during this campaign, the
pattern was in the press, we`d look at it and we say, well, there it is.
That`s the end of the pain. No one can say this and get elected president,
whatever. And then, he would be stronger in the polls.
Do we look at it now and say a lot of things Trump was saying, that`s how
they were better received by a larger part of the public than we realize?
HUEY-BURNS: Well, I think also, there`s this – you have to separate Trump
from everybody else. I mean, I don`t know that another person can do and
say the things that Trump has done and said and still be as successful
electorally, politically as Trump has been. And so, if you look at it in
that lens, I also think there`s a tendency to look at everything, pick
random Republican who said this and then that becomes a whole thing.
The difference with Paladino, of course, is that context you mentioned and
also his prominence in the Trump transition efforts, in the Trump
transition team and in the campaign efforts. But I think that some of
these things are really distinct to Trump and it`s hard to be successful by
another person without the Trump brand really.
KORNACKI: All right. We`re going to squeeze one more break in. Stay with
Up next, these three are going to tell me something I don`t know. That`s
the easiest job in the world.
You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.
KORNACKI: All right. We are back with the HARDBALL roundtable.
Amy, tell me something I don`t know.
CHOZICK: All right. So, last week, I wrote a story about how the Trump
transition officials were reaching out to authorities on the border, on the
Texas border, trying to figure out where to erect the wall. So, something
you may not know is for the first time in 50 years, more undocumented
Mexicans are actually returning to Mexico than coming over the other way.
That is actually Pew just released a study saying that Asians will surpass
Latin Americans as an immigrant group in the next couple of decades and a
record number of Mexicans are returning, there`s more opportunities there,
partly it`s because the Obama administration has been so effective at
KORNACKI: Hurry up, Azi. Tell me something I don`t know.
PAYBARAH: Bill de Blasio, mayor of New York City, a foil for Donald Trump,
acts like Donald Trump in avoiding reporters` Q&As he has once a week.
Last one was 15 minutes and 10 seconds, took 20 questions.
KORNACKI: All right. Caitlin, you`ve got five seconds.
HUEY-BURNS: Trump`s approval rating has been ticking up since he was
elected. We`ll see if it keeps going upwards before the inauguration which
will be his big stage to try and unite a very divided country. Still very
low. Lowest unpopular coming –
KORNACKI: All right. Caitlin, Azi, Amy, thank you.
That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.
“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.
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