Hardball With Chris Matthews, Transcript 12/14/2016

Jeremy Peters, April Ryan, John Brabender, Bob Corker, Bob Casey, Taraji P. Henson, Octavia Spencer, Janelle Monae, Kevin Costner, Pharrell Williams, Ted Melfi

Date: December 14, 2016
Guest: Jeremy Peters, April Ryan, John Brabender, Bob Corker, Bob Casey,
Taraji P. Henson, Octavia Spencer, Janelle Monae, Kevin Costner, Pharrell
Williams, Ted Melfi


Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

We are just weeks away from Donald Trump being sworn in as our 45th
president of the United States. As he enters the Oval Office for the first
time, Trump will immediately face a series of urgent international crises.
And nothing is more pressing or more devastating than then the conflict in

There are scenes there of utter devastation coming from the city of Aleppo,
a day after a breakdown of humanitarian – of the humanitarian ceasefire
between the government of Bashar Assad and West-backed rebel groups. Both
sides blame the other for the renewed violence. Look at that city!

The United Nations called the situation there a complete meltdown of
humanity. Assad`s forces are backed by Russia and Iran, of course, and the
U.N. alleged more than 80 men, women and children have been shot by pro-
government forces. And there are also reports of bodies simply lying in
the streets.

The rebels are holed up in a tiny sliver land on the eastern side of the
city, but tens of thousands of civilians are thought to be trapped along
with them.

NBC`s Bill Neely has the latest – Bill.

BILL NEELY, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Chris. Well, it`s has been
said in the past of Middle East ceasefire deals that before the ink is dry,
the ceasefire has collapsed. And that appears to have been the case in

Last night, we understood that there was a deal brokered by Russia and
Turkey that would allow hundreds if not thousands of people, including
rebels and their families, to get on buses and leave the city.

Those buses were lined up at dawn this morning, but as the sun rose, the
ceasefire deal collapsed. There was shooting, then shelling. Many of the
people who thought they would get out had to scatter and run for their
lives. And today, well, the shooting and shelling has just increased.
I`ve just heard from a friend and colleague inside Aleppo who said all day,
there`s been very heavy shelling. That has continued tonight with
explosions lighting up the night sky.

It`s a terrible betrayal of the people inside eastern Aleppo. The U.N.
says there are about 50,000 of those in an area probably one square mile.
We`re still not sure how big it is and how many people are in there. But
yesterday, we saw some of them, bedraggled, leaving in terrible conditions,
leaving the slaughter, and we did think that today, more would join them.
But no, they are trapped.

The rebel say they have begun to attack government forces. That`s within
the last few hours. The government said they were attacking, and people
have been describing air strikes, what they call cluster bomb attacks all
day long. And we know there have been casualties, including children,
certainly civilians. We don`t know how many.

But look, the fall of Aleppo is imminent. This can`t go on for too long.
President Assad has been on television, on Russian television today talking
about what happens next.

But you know, even if Aleppo falls, this war, Chris, isn`t over. ISIS
controls a large part of eastern Syria, including Palmyra, which it retook
recently. Rebels control areas in Idlib province in the north and in the
south near Daraa, and the Kurds control swathes of the border with Turkey.

So even if Aleppo falls, this war isn`t over because it is several wars.
It`s not just a war between the government and rebels. And you know, Assad
will control the four major cities of Syria, Aleppo, Damascus, Hama and
Homs, probably within the next few days. But he still doesn`t control the
whole country. He says he wants it back.

Certainly, in Aleppo in the days ahead, we can expect many more hours of
fighting and an increasing death toll, sadly. Chris, back to you.

MATTHEWS: Thank you Bill Neely, who`s in Beirut.

I`m joined right now by United States senator Bob Corker of Tennessee.
He`s the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator Corker, if you had to give advice on an intimate basis with the
current president, Barack Obama, or the incoming president, Donald Trump,
what would you tell him to do to try to stop this horror?

SEN. BOB CORKER (R), TENNESSEE: Well, you know, look, we`ve been giving
advice for four or five years, Chris. And you know, this was said on the
front end to be the Chernobyl of conflict and it`s turned to be that. I
mean, this is a blight on us. It`s a blight on the West. It`s a blight on

At this point, I mean, the story as it relates to western Syria is mostly
written. And what`s going to happen there is going to be determined by
Russia, who stepped into vacuum that we left about nine months to a year
ago, and Iran, and certainly Assad.

So this is a disaster. We`ve known that he was torturing his own people.
You`ve seen the Holocaust Museum exhibit of Caesar (ph) who was documenting
this, cutting people`s genitals off. This has been going on for a long
time. So it`s almost as if, not you, but people are beginning to wake up
to what`s occurred.

And as far as advice goes, I mean, again, Russia`s going to determine the
outcome in the western part. So the real decision is on the eastern part,
where ISIS is. And are we, in fact, going try to team up with the Turks?
Are we going to team up with the Arabs, who are in conjunction with the
Kurds? Or are we going to try to do something in coordination with Russia?

But the real – what`s left where we can be more instrumental is the ISIS
component. We unfortunately led these rebels on, told them what we were
going to do, and we didn`t do it. We cheered them on. We held their
coats. And this is what – this is what is left.

MATTHEWS: What would you have done?

CORKER: Well, we – it was – it was exactly what was attempting to be
done at the time when Petraeus was in and Secretary Clinton, and that was
to attempt to really give the moderate rebels, when there actually was a
moderate rebel group, what they needed to push back. Chris, if you
remember, when the chemical weapons were used, the Free Syrian Army was on
the move. They had momentum.

And when we decided not to take Assad – it was going to be a 10 – hour
operation from the Mediterranean. But when we decided not to carry out
that operation to push back, it depleted their momentum. It left them in
many ways lifeless, that we would not do what we said.

And so, again, there`s been a series of efforts. A year-and-half ago, we
had the opportunity to create a no-fly zone along the southern border of


CORKER: … and a no-fly zone in the triangle of Aleppo. So I mean, this
is all – we can go – it really doesn`t do any good. It`s a shame.

MATTHEWS: That`s why I keep asking what would you do now?

CORKER: That decision memo…

MATTHEWS: What would you do now?


MATTHEWS: Russia is in there. Russia is not going away. How do we move
Russia to bring down Assad?

CORKER: You`re not going to. You`re not going to. It`s not going to
happen. I mean, we can – you know, the thing that can happen is we can
hope that we can bring the Arabs to the table. They`re concerned about
Iranian influence, and we can hope to negotiate over time an election
process and, hopefully, a transition away from Assad after years and years
and years, but at this point, as I mentioned, Chris, I mean, Russia
controls what is going to happen in that area.



CORKER: … took control about nine months ago. I mean, so – so

MATTHEWS: OK, let`s go to…

CORKER: This president, the next president – OK. Good.

MATTHEWS: Let`s take a look at the next president…


CORKER: He`s not sullied by the lack of decisions that have been made.


CORKER: And now he`s at a place where – where he can really focus,
unfortunately, on the ISIS component only and not – not really other than
negotiations what`s happening in the west.

MATTHEWS: Well, he`s advocated during the campaign a stronger role from
Vladimir Putin and even Bashar Assad in going after ISIS in Syria. Let`s
watch Trump in action.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If Putin wants to go and knock
the hell out of ISIS, I am all for it 100 percent. And I can`t understand
how anybody would be against it.

I`ve been looking at the different players and I`ve been watching Assad and
I`ve been pretty good at this stuff over the years because deals are
people. And I`m looking at Assad and saying maybe he`s better than the
kind of people that we`re supposed to be backing.


MATTHEWS: Your reaction to that, Senator.

CORKER: Yes. Well, look, Russia has not been hitting ISIS. Russia is
hitting the folks that we have begun to support and – or have been
supporting for years. And al Nusra is mixed in with them, and so in some
cases, yes, they`re hitting Nusra, who are mixed in with our rebels. But
their focus has not been on ISIS.

So the real decision is going to be, as I mentioned earlier, how are we
going to go forward in the Raqqa area and others that they control.


CORKER: Are we going to try to do, as he mentioned, with Russia? Are we
going to try to do so with the Turks? Are we going to try to do so with
the Kurd-Arab – Arab coalition that`s been put together? That`s the
decision that he has to make.

MATTHEWS: Two more questions to you. Do you – would you support John
Bolton in a top position in the government, the new government? John

CORKER: I`m not – I have made no comments on nominees until they`re
actually nominated. So let`s see what happens there.

MATTHEWS: We`ll get back to you then.

CORKER: I understand. And I think what we`re seeing – look, it obviously
is a nomination that`s been controversial in the past, but I`ve never
really sat down and talked with John Bolton one on one. And until someone
is nominated, I really – I really just don`t like to weigh in.

MATTHEWS: How about this proposal by Trump to move the American embassy in
Israel to Jerusalem, which has always been talked about but had never been

CORKER: So candidly, I`ve talked to the Israelis about it, and I think
that there`s a way to communicate the moving of the embassy to Jerusalem.
I think you know what we have there is a consulate now that really works
only on the Palestinian side. But I think there`s a way of doing it if you
communicate that you`re still hoping and working towards a two-state

So I know he campaigned on it. I actually think it would be something at
this point that would not be negative and could be very positive in moving
things along. So my guess is they`re going to move in that direction.

MATTHEWS: OK, I disagree, but that`s your right. Thank you for coming on,
Senator Robert Corker of Tennessee.

Yesterday, United States ambassador to the United Nations called out Russia
and Iran for their responsibility for the carnage in Aleppo. Let`s watch


regime, Russia and Iran, three member states behind the conquest of and
carnage in Aleppo, you bear responsibility for these atrocities. When one
day there is a full accounting of the horrors committed in this assault of
Aleppo – and that day will come sooner or later – you will not be able to
say you did not know what was happening. You will not be able to say you
were not involved. We all know what was happening and we all know you were

It should shame you. Instead, by all appearances, it is emboldening you.
Are you truly incapable of shame? Is there literally nothing that can
shame you? Is there no act of barbarism against civilians, no execution of
a child that gets under your skin, that just creeps you out a little bit?
Is there nothing you will not lie about or justify?


MATTHEWS: Well, that`s the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Samantha

Anyway, I`m joined right now by Senator Bob Casey, Democrat from
Pennsylvania. Senator, I wasn`t getting a lot of response from your
chairman, Senator Corker, about what we can do right now. We see the
pictures coming from Aleppo. Can the United States leverage somehow the
Russians to get Assad out of there or reduce his reign over most of the
country, partition the country? What can we do to stop the fighting,

SEN. BOB CASEY (D), PENNSYLVANIA: Well, Chris, there are limits, but
certainly, we could be continuing to make the efforts I know that the
administration has made and Secretary Kerry especially has worked on to get
more humanitarian aid on the ground and deliver it, and I know that`s an
ongoing effort. I don`t know how to place a metric on that in terms of
success or failure, but I know they`re trying very hard. That`s one thing.

And certainly the Russians at times have been – most of the time have not
been cooperative. Other times, they have been cooperative.

Lately, though, I think Samantha Power is right. They have to be held to
account, the Russians, Bashar al Assad the Iranians, for the carnage of not
just Aleppo but all throughout Syria.

But right now, the most important thing is to focus on getting that
humanitarian aid there and to focus on, as I will, in the new Congress –
Marco Rubio and I, the senator from Florida, both have legislation we
introduced at the end of the year – we`ll reintroduce it – that focuses
on sanctioning Russia, Iran and Syria, but also focusing intensively on
getting humanitarian aid there.

MATTHEWS: OK, NBC`s Richard Engel reported from Moscow this week that the
Kremlin is celebrating Trump`s recent move. Here`s what a former energy
minister in Russia told Engel about the incoming Trump administration.
Let`s watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is Trump election and the new administration the
way it is being shaped right now, it is absolutely a gift for Putin. He
couldn`t have dreamed about anything like that just three (ph) months ago.


MATTHEWS: So Trump and his new team is a gift for Putin. How do you react
to that, Senator?

CASEY: Well, Chris, it`s – it`s a – a reality that I think concerns not
only me but a lot of the American people because you have this fascination
that the president-elect seems to have with Vladimir Putin. I hope – I
hope – that when he is president, after he takes oath of office, I hope he
makes it very clear to the American people that he`s going to be very tough
with Russia, hold them accountable when they engage in the kind of activity
they`ve engaged in in Syria.

And look, I think the way he should view Vladimir Putin is the way I view
him, as as close to a 24-hour bad guy as you can get on the world stage,
constantly intervening, intervening even in our elections, as we know now

MATTHEWS: Clearly.

CASEY: … good reporting. So I hope the president-elect when he`s
president will have a different approach to the Russian Federation, and
especially Mr. Putin.

MATTHEWS: Two tough questions before you leave, Senator. John Bolton for
any top position – would you support him if you had to confirm, would you
do it, John Bolton, the man – one of the top hawks in the Iraq war? Your

CASEY: Be very difficult, Chris, for me to support him. I don`t know what
will happen in terms of the nomination.

MATTHEWS: What about the idea of moving – not the idea, but the reality
of moving our embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, divided Jerusalem? Is that
something that would be good for our relations over there?

CASEY: I would hope that we could, but I don`t think that`s likely to


CASEY: We`ll see what the incoming administration does.

MATTHEWS: Well, I hope it doesn`t happen, anyway, because it`s just going
to be cataclysmic. Anyway, thank you, Senator Bob Casey.

Coming up – seems like Donald Trump and Paul Ryan are old pals now, or new
pals. Ryan was booed, by the way, at the Trump rally last night, but Trump
says the House Speaker is like a fine wine. You know, it gets better with
time? And that`s ahead.

Plus, the HARDBALL roundtable tonight`s going to tell me three things I
don`t know about what`s going on inside Trump Tower right now.

And the stars of the great upcoming movie, “Hidden Figures” here tonight.
They`re all coming here. It`s the true story of three African-American
women mathematicians who helped get the American pace program off the
ground and into orbit. What a great story is. We`re going to talk to
actors Octavia Spencer, Taraji P. Henson, Janelle Monae, and also Kevin
Costner, plus director Ted Melfi and Pharrell Williams, who composed the
film`s amazing sound track.

Finally, “Let Me Finish” with one of my sources, a political guy from
Boston who saw this election result coming.

And this is HARDBALL, the a place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Let`s take a look at this, the choices for the top four
positions in the incoming Trump cabinet, secretary of state, attorney
general, Treasury and Defense. The real plum jobs are all going to white
men. It`s the first time that`s happened, or this has happened since 1989.

And we`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

For most of the 2016 presidential campaign, House Speaker Paul Ryan did
everything he could to avoid even appearing with his party`s presidential
nominee, Donald Trump.

It was just two months ago, in fact, that Ryan had disinvited Trump from a
joint campaign appearance in Ryan`s home state of Wisconsin.

But last night, as Trump continued on his thank you tour back in Wisconsin,
the hatchet was pretty much buried between the president-elect and the
House speaker, though maybe not with Trump supporters out in the crowd.

Watch and listen.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: Speaker Paul Ryan, I really have come


TRUMP: Oh, no. I have come to appreciate him, Speaker Paul Ryan. Where
is the speaker? Where is he?

He has been – I`ll tell you, he has been terrific. And, you know,
honestly, he is like a fine wine.


TRUMP: Every day goes by, I get to appreciate his genius more and more.
Now, if he ever goes against me, I`m not going to say that, OK?

We have some amazing things in store. And we`re going to work on taxes.
We`re going to work on Obamacare. We`re going to work on things. And he
is going to lead the way. So, thank you.

Oh, we`re going to work on the wall, Paul.



MATTHEWS: See? The old favorites. The old golden oldies. The wall.

Anyway, by the way, while Trump appeared to put Ryan on notice last night,
will their newly forged friendship, their pal-ship produce big results?

Let`s bring in the HARDBALL roundtable tonight.

John Brabender is a Republican strategist. April Ryan is White House
correspondent and Washington bureau chief for American Urban Radio Networks
and the author of “At Mama`s Knee: Mothers and Race in Black and White.”
And Jeremy Peters is with “The New York Times.”

Let`s talk about this thing, because it really gets to the heart of what is
going to get done next year or not. I was on election night, and Lawrence
O`Donnell upbraided me and said, well, Ryan is not going to approve any
spending bill. So, forget about anything Trump wants to do in terms of
infrastructure, grand economic deals.

Will Paul Ryan agree to some grand economic deal next year, or will nothing
get done?


Let`s be honest. Paul Ryan at some point made a calculated risk that Trump
was not going to win. Now Trump wins. And what Ryan has said since then
is, well, he has spoken to people that we haven`t found.

The key from that footage that you showed was, you have to understand a lot
of Trump supporters are not necessarily Republican supporters. They`re
Trump supporters.


BRABENDER: And Ryan needs them.

But, at the same time, president-elect needs Ryan. It is an arranged
marriage, but I think they`re going to try to make it work.

MATTHEWS: The reason people who voted for Trump voted for Trump – at
least the better people – I will say that – who had aspirations for this
country, who were patriotic, was hoping to get the country rolling again,
big economic opportunities for everybody.

If they don`t pass a deal that includes big road building, bridge building,
fixing stuff, spending money, hiring people, it is all B.S., if he doesn`t
do that. Can Ryan go along with that? Will he go along with it?

what he is in place to do.

Building bridges, the infrastructure – the nation needs infrastructure
building. We have got crumbling roads, crumbling bridges, crumbling
buildings. But at the same time, Donald Trump said this on the campaign

And to make him successful, these two frenemies have to meet for this to
work. And Paul Ryan is the one to help find the ways and means to make it

MATTHEWS: Will there be a wall he goes up against? Will he force Trump in
every case, pay for this, pay for this, in other words, raise taxes to pay
for this? It is a very hard thing to do if you`re going to stimulate the
economy at the same time you raises taxes.

Trump wants to cut corporate taxes, cut a lot of taxes, and spend money.


And what will they do? Will they try conduct some scheme like Reagan did
with the gas tax and call it a highway user fee, something like that?

MATTHEWS: In `83, he did that.

PETERS: Right.

So, there will be a way to pay for this. Yes. It will have to be done in
a way that is going to be palatable to the Grover Norquists of the world,
because I just don`t see it getting through any other way.

MATTHEWS: What`s wrong with borrowing the money? Trump bonds. Get them
to go out on the road and sell Trump bonds, like war bonds.

PETERS: This is where some of the Cabinet secretaries are going to play a
key role, Chris, his labor secretary.

I`m sorry. His commerce secretary and his transportation secretary are
going to be deeply involved in working with the private…

MATTHEWS: Elaine Chao.

PETERS: Elaine Chao, right.

MATTHEWS: What is the wife of?

PETERS: Mitch McConnell.

MATTHEWS: Right. This is great stuff.

PETERS: This was all very well thought out. They knew what they were

MATTHEWS: You think he got the spouse to get the spouse? Do you think
Trump has figured it that way?


BRABENDER: Well, first of all, let`s understand she does have experience.


MATTHEWS: Don`t pull that hat.


MATTHEWS: I`m not downgrading her. I just saw her last night. I will not
– I`m saying, was he thinking of this marital connection when he picked
her for road building?


BRABENDER: I don`t think so.


PETERS: Well, no, no, no. It wasn`t the marital connection, as much as it
was her ability to help shepherd things through Congress and her deep ties,
her relationships on Capitol Hill.

MATTHEWS: Of course, because she`s a heavyweight.


BRABENDER: That is a different story.


BRABENDER: It`s not about Mitch McConnell.

RYAN: His politics is business. And he knows that`s what you do. You
find the common ground. And that was a good common – and it makes sense.

MATTHEWS: She`s a very popular figure in the city, by the way.

RYAN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, Politico reported that Trump`s son Donald Jr. was
involved in the search and the vetting for secretary of interior.

According to Politico, he sat in on interviews and made calls to
candidates, according to sources familiar with the process. Montana
Congressman Ryan Zinke was offered the post Tuesday. Donald Trump did tell
an outdoors publication, whatever that is, “The big joke at Christmas this
year was that the only job in government I would want is with the
Department of Interior. I understand these issues. It is something I`m
passionate about. I will be the very loud voice about these issues in my
father`s ear. No one gets him more than us.”

That`s the kid talking.

Anyway, but a Trump spokesperson waved off any concerns about Trump`s kids
being involved in personnel selection.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The transition team has been very transparent in the
fact that Donald Trump Jr. is on the transition team, that he is someone
who is helping us form this government and put things together.

So, we have announced that right from the beginning. And so it only makes
sense that the transition team member was active in the process.


MATTHEWS: Well, you know, Trump does listen to other people for advice,
obviously. It took him a while to pick the new secretary of state-

But he uses his kids. Can he get away with using his kids as political
consiglieres the midst of a presidency? Can he do that still?

PETERS: I think he will do it and try to figure it out later.

I don`t think that it matters to him what the repercussions of it are.
This is what he has always done. He has a very tight-knit family. He
leans on them for a lot.

But it also speaks to how Trump doesn`t really change. Everyone was
always, oh, will he stop tweeting now that he`s become president? No, of
course not. Will he stop going after his rivals…


PETERS: No, of course not. He doesn`t change.

MATTHEWS: How does he avoid saying to Donald Jr. so how does that affect
our operation in India? How does that affect our operation? Any time he
is talking about Indiana, or he is talking about Indian tribes or anything,
how does that affect our operation?

RYAN: Donald Trump is falling back on who he is.

And I hate to keep going back to this, but it is about business. His
children are very strategic and critical to him. We saw it today when he
had a tech meeting. They – all three were in the meeting. And Donald
Trump falls back on that. They`re his advisers. They`re his consorts.

But, again, he is trying on find business solutions to our everyday

MATTHEWS: Can you put your children in a blind trust?

RYAN: The stocks have to be in a blind trust.

MATTHEWS: Can you put your children in a blind – I`m being rhetorical
here. Don`t you always worry about your kids?


RYAN: The children cannot be in charge of a blind trust.


RYAN: They can`t.

MATTHEWS: They can`t be in one either.


BRABENDER: But, honestly, I don`t see the outrage.

If you look through campaign, every time the kids got involved, they helped
make better decisions, not worse.


MATTHEWS: So, he can put up with a bad press every time that something
that overlaps, right?

BRABENDER: I think he makes better decisions with their counsel.

MATTHEWS: So, you would say just risk taking some heat for a conflict?

BRABENDER: Yes, I would.

PETERS: And that`s what he`s going to do.

RYAN: Governance is the issue. But governance will win out in the long

MATTHEWS: Well, he`s not getting rid of the empire, I`m pretty sure.

But I thought Heidi Przybyla the other night here said something very
smart. What happens when to those Trump buildings all over the world?
They become targets for the bad guys. Here`s a way to hit America. Hit
the president`s building.

Anyway, the HARDBALL roundtable is staying with us.

And up next, they`re going to tell me something I don`t know, as always.

And, later, the star-studded – this is great stuff coming up – the new,
about to come out, movie, “Hidden Figures,” it`s called. They`re all
coming to HARDBALL to talk about this great new movie three African-
American mathematicians who worked behind the scenes to get the American
space program off the ground.

It really happened. It really is a fabulous story we all should have known
about 50 years ago.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: We`re back with the HARDBALL roundtable.

John, tell me something I don`t know on this big day.

BRABENDER: I`m making a prediction two years out. The Republicans are
going to pick up three Senate seats in 2018, going against the whole idea
that you`re going to lose seats during a president…


MATTHEWS: Because there are so many exposed Democratic seats?

BRABENDER: That, and last time, they all got to run with Obama. They
don`t get to run with him, the Democrats.

MATTHEWS: What is the big upset? What is the big upset?

BRABENDER: I think Pennsylvania.

MATTHEWS: Go ahead.

RYAN: A synopsis of a synopsis.

The presidential briefings, going back a couple of years, since we`re
hearing about how Donald Trump doesn`t like to get them, the repetition
every day – Bill Clinton was a voracious reader. He read his intelligence
briefings. George W. Bush had people come in and give him the
understanding of what was going on. And he also had an hour with them


RYAN: And now President Obama read, as well as takes the briefings.

So, we understand Donald Trump does not like to read much. So, we are
expecting it will be catered to him.

PETERS: Senior sources on Capitol Hill, it seems like Rex Tillerson is
going to be fine. Fine doesn`t mean that the process is going to be
pleasant or not bumpy, but he`s an impressive guy.

MATTHEWS: Coming up – I want to thank John Brabender, April Ryan and
Jeremy Peters.

If I don`t see you again, merry Christmas.

And still ahead, the stars of the great new movie “Hidden Figures.” Stick
around for this. This is great stuff. A star-studded lineup, by the way,
and they`re all coming here, Octavia Spencer, Kevin Costner, all kinds of

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: We`re coming back with the stars of the soon-to-be-released
movie “Hidden Figures” about the pioneering African-American mathematicians
who helped launch America`s space program.

And here is a clip from the film.


UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: The pastor mentioned you`re a compute rat NASA.
That`s pretty heady stuff.


UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: They let women handle that sort of – that`s not what
I mean.


UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I`m just surprised something so taxing…

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Mr. Johnson, if I were you, I would quit talking
right now.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I mean no disrespect.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: I will have you know I was the first Negro female
student at West Virginia University Graduate School.

On any given day, I analyze the velometer levels for air displacement,
friction and velocity and compute over 10,000 calculations by hand.

So, yes, they let women do some things at NASA, Mr. Johnson. And it is not
because we wear skirts. It is because we wear glasses.


MATTHEWS: Well, the stars behind this great movie are coming here next.
It is going to be great to watch.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Well, you can play HARDBALL all week long online. Follow the
show on Twitter and Instagram and like us on Facebook. You`ll get access
to interviews, videos and behind-the-scenes photos as we cover the Trump

And we`ll be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s the status on that computer?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s right behind you, Mr. Harrison.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can she handle analytic geometry?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely. And she speaks.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Both. Geometry and speaking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ruth, get me the – do you think you can find me the
frame for this data using the –

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The algorithm, yes, sir. I prefer it over Euclidian


MATTHEWS: Welcome back.

That was the scene from the upcoming film “Hidden Figures”. The true story
of three African-American mathematicians and the key role they played at
NASA to launch the first American into orbit. The film sets the struggle
of equal rights against the space race. Recounting a time that even at
NASA, African-Americans were segregated from their white counterparts.
This is a film about women who broke barriers in more ways than one.

Here`s a clip for the trailer.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Katherine! We`re all going to get unemployed right
around this pilot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll sit in the back of the bus.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have identification?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were just on our way to work at NASA, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had no idea they hired.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Quite a few women working in the space program.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you ladies do for NASA?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Calculate your landing, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Engineer, and I`m proud to be working with you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How we can possibly (INAUDIBLE) these white men.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s equal rights. I have a right to see fine in
every color.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me ask you, if you were a white male, would you
wish to be an engineer?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wouldn`t have to. I would already be one.


MATTHEWS: Well, “Hidden Figures” is out in select theaters at
Christmastime. In fact, Christmas Day and a wider release following on
January 6.

Well, I`m joined right now by those people who made this movie come to
life, including the stars of the film. Taraji P. Henson is right there.
She is the superstar. And Octavia Spencer, I`ve been in love with her for
a long time. Janelle Monae, thank you. There you are.

And you all look very glamorous right now. (AUDIO GAP) bureaucrats. The
great Kevin Costner is here and, of course, singer-songwriter, Pharrell
Williams, who composed the soundtrack for the movie and the score, and
director Ted Melfi, thank you.

I love “St. Vincent” with Bill Murray.


MATTHEWS: Well, I want to talk to you, Taraji, because you were – you
just dominate movie. I had to say that. And the scenes of putting up with
Jim Crow and putting up with Jim Crow in a federal institution.

What grabbed me in the beginning was, the cop who stopped you guys in your
`57, I love `57 Impala Chevy, I always love them. He stops you in a car
and he`s got the usual color mentality going, on black/white thing going
on, white/black, and all of a sudden he says you`re in the space program.
And his patriotism kicks in.


MATTHEWS: Tell me about that.

HENSON: Well, I think that`s the overall message of the story. When we
put our differences aside as humans, that`s when we`re able to move the
human race forward, because at the end of the day, we`re all humans. You
know, a mind doesn`t have a color.

When it comes to calculating numbers, I don`t care what color you are. I
don`t care who you sleep with at night. Can you find the math?

MATTHEWS: I love the score. This person that Taraji is playing, everybody
has to go to the bathroom and everybody knows the experience of having to
go to the bathroom now. And then she has the color, it is like a bad
dream, I`ve got to go to a building where there`s a colored women`s
bathroom. And you got this great music. Tell me about the music you put
in there.

largely just led by –

MATTHEWS: It`s called running.

WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. That song was just based on a story. It`s like, when
we got the script, it was like, OK. These women are living in the matrix
of the 1960s where the physics and the gravity for African-Americans was
much more heavier. And it was twice as heavier on a woman.

So, having to run to the bathroom, not only the other side of the building
but the other side of the campus, and there were campus bikes. But for
women, we forget as men, you know, long skirts, long dresses. So they had
to run rain or shine, 30 to 45 minutes round trip to the other side of the
campus just to use the bathroom.

MATTHEWS: So, Ted, and the other ladies here, high heels a big part of
this for some reasons. Maybe it is the photography. The women look great,
of course, but you`re always shooting the legs and the shoes. And one time
they get caught. And you almost get killed. It is a wind tunnel.

You`re on a wind tunnel, you look great by the way in the wind tunnel.
Your legs get caught on this, look at your legs, look at your shoes. And
you get stuck and the guy says, “The shoe ain`t worth it.” I mean, when
you`re running to the bathroom, it`s all high heels. So women in high
heels being African-American in a Jim Crow setting and wearing high heels.



MONAE: – just like we continuously do every day. What is so inspiring
about this film and these women is they did not allow the obstacles to
deter them and stop them from their dreams.

Yes, you know, we were dealing with racism, we were dealing with sexism, we
were dealing with classism, but the great team about when NASA and all the
men and women put all those isms to bed and bury them all, that`s when they
achieved the extraordinary together. They all realized that at the end of
the day, we all bleed the same color.

MATTHEWS: You know, Kevin, I saw that – great to have you on – because I
think of you all the time in a movie. I`ve seen this a lot of times, where
I think I`ve seen 13 days a hundred times. And in the middle of a Cuban
missile crisis, a white world, as if there wasn`t a black world out there.

And here you have a movie that`s pretty much the same time period.


MATTHEWS: `61, `62. In fact, it is `62. This movie includes the reality
of American high of much better.

COSTNER: Yes. Well, you know, I mean, it seems like a lot of stories
don`t get told. They are in the pages of history. They don`t come out.

You can give some of that a pass because how many stories can you possibly
tell? If you look beneath the surface, you will fine the story. The thing
that I found disturbing was that if you are going to tell original story of
John Glenn, all right? Not about the women working off to the side, like
we know in segue, if you`re going to tell that story John Glenn, there is a
moment when he would go or wasn`t going to go.

So, it would be like telling a joke and maybe leaving out a punch line.
There was a moment where he was going to go or not go and it hung on the
balance over a young woman who was going to have to do math by hand.

Now, I don`t know about you, but in great story telling, you don`t leave
out that bit. So, if we don`t learn about these human computers, they were
called computers, I can see that story emerging. I would have liked to
know about that a long time ago.

But not knowing about that seminal moment where he was saying, I ain`t
going unless I know, that should have been a part of what we knew about for
a long time.

MATTHEWS: He was a good guy in the movie, right, Octavia?

OCTAVIA SPENCER, ACTRESS, “HIDDEN FIGURES”: He was a good guy, period. I
learned something about him that I didn`t know and it made him that much
more of an American hero to me because he did something unpopular at that
time. He put his hands in the life of this African-American woman. If her
numbers didn`t match up, he wasn`t going to go. If her numbers matched up,
of course, he went.

MATTHEWS: He wanted to know he was going to land.

SPENCER: Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: That`s key information. They have to get to it with the ship.
But you were in “The Help.”

SPENCER: I was in “The Help.”

MATTHEWS: I always remember that meal you cooked up with that white lady.
We will always remember that. This tastes interesting.

So, you`ve gotten at the Jim Crow thing from a couple ways now.

SPENCER: Jim Crow is a very difficult time to immerse yourself in, but
when you`re doing a period film, we have agency as contemporary women that
African-American women did not have in the Jim crow era. So there`s
something wonderful to be said about the solidarity that we felt on the
set, very insulated, Ted created a safe place for us to work and have fun.

MATTHEWS: I like the way, Taraji, you look up at that sign as you go out
of the room, colored computers. They still designate you by your

Let`s take another look at the movie.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go find your way over there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That Colonel Jim is a tall glass of water.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That he is. Tall, strong, commanding.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I bet he`s like that day and night.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mary, it`s Sunday. Please have some shame.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s coming over.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, why would he be doing that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because Mary`s waving at him.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Colonel, I`m Dorothy Vaughn, that`s Ms. Jackson.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. Nice to meet you all.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s not married. She`s a widow, with three
beautiful little girls. So well-behaved. Angels on earth is like we like
to call her. Dorothy, slice of pie?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You already have a slice of pie.


MATTHEWS: So it`s so great you`re doing this. I`m so glad you took this
project. I`m so glad you took this project. Everybody took it. Because
Hollywood needs it.

It`s not a reaction to Hollywood. It`s not a redo, but it`s something.

MELFI: We need to see this story. We need little girls to see this story.
We need little boys to see this story. We need people to know that history
wasn`t a bunch of white guys in a room.

NASA was very diverse. NASA celebrates these women. These women are not
hidden from NASA. NASA has been honoring these women for a long time.

So, it`s great to tell the general public that.

MATTHEWS: Well, guys, thank you all. It`s honor to meet you all.


MATTHEWS: Pharrell, the music gets to even me.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can keep the mugs?

MATTHEWS: You can keep the mugs, we can get you hats. This is a great
opportunity, because I think this is – I said politics and culture are
together. They`re the same thing. This collection, whatever you think of
it, culture and politics are together. We got to put it all together.

Merry Christmas to everybody.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you so much.

WILLIAMS: I was just going to say, you`re not Mr. Straight hour. We`ve
been watching you for years.


WILLIAMS: And your interviews is and the way that you keep people straight
is amazing, and when people veer off and they don`t answer the question
there`s no one that slices through it better than you.


MATTHEWS: Thank you.

That`s not in the script. We`ll be right back. Thank you. We`ll be right


MATTHEWS: Trump Watch, Wednesday, December 14th, 2016.

I want to do something tonight I don`t often do, give credit to one of my
sources, one of the people that gives me the benefit of their thinking even
when I`m not smart enough to accept it. I`ve known Edward Jesser, a
political expert from Boston since we worked together at the White House in
the 1970s. We`ve been friends ever since. He`s been in presidential
campaigns from George McGovern, Sargent Shriver, Paul Tsongas.

Ed is a Democrat by nurture and an independent by nature. He thinks for
himself. He doesn`t run with the pack. He spent the good part of the past
presidential election giving me the benefit of his thinking. His thinking
and his thinking was that Donald Trump would be the winner in election day
and that Hillary Clinton would lose.

He was writing to me when the punditocracy were routinely predicting a
double-digit Hillary Clinton landslide. As Ed reminded on November 9th
actually, the morning right after the election, he had written me that
Trump would get the Republican nomination because he was the only
performer, think about that word, performer out there in the field then.

On St. Patrick`s Day, he emailed me this, We are awash in Donald Trump. He
may be the best political operative in the modern era, to say nothing of
his role as a candidate, an astonishing mix of Lee Atwater and Bill
Clinton, yet he`s only beginning to be treated by the political cognoscente
as someone of consequence.”

Well, looking back, let`s face it, Ed Jesser was right back then. Who else
was even in Trump`s league during the Republican primaries? On August
21st, Ed e-mailed me that Hillary Clinton, quote, “has little improvement
room. Her image, her being is pretty much set in stone in the people`s
minds. Not much is good for her outside the area of her supporters.”

Trump on the other hand is no longer a tabula rasa but his political raison
d`etre is still quite malleable. He will improve among gays, minorities of
color and gender. They`ll still hammer him but not with the percentage or
turnout she is expecting today. For Hillary`s gang, it will be much like
the French generals defending the marginal line.

Well, ten days before the election, Ed wrote that he thought that Trump
could still win because all the public polling to the contrary, Hillary
Clinton was not running away with it. Even in the best of times when Trump
was saying the worst of his stuff, killing himself, she was not opening up
a significant lead. In his e-mail to me on October 27 was, after an
obscenely successful non-strop run on Trump by the national forces of
morality he called them, Hillary still can`t run away. I`m running into
liberal women, Ivy League college, law and medical school grads who can`t
vote for Hillary.

Also in that October 27th e-mail a proposal, “Could you secure, say, a half
hour more of your show for a serious discussion of polling?”

When November 4th, the Friday before the election, Ed wrote me, “Hillary
has to get enough black votes in the lock box before the old fashioned vote
next Tuesday and it appears she`ll fail. She`s not going to match Obama`s
vote among blacks. And why on earth did the Clinton people ever think she
would? Every indication I get is that everything is breaking for Trump and
has been from before the Comey letter. If so, it`s been my experience that
late breaking waves are virtually immutable. Everyone wants change, sad to
say it may be as simple as that.”

So, with Christmas coming close, I want to say thanks to Ed Jesser, at
least for keeping me in male distance of rough reality, tough reality.
Merry Christmas, Ed and Connie.

And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.


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