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Hardball With Chris Matthews, Transcript 11/29/2016

Guests: Barney Frank, Eli Stokols, Ken Vogel, Chris Murphy, Ruth Marcus, Mollie Hemingway

Show: HARDBALL Date: November 29, 2016 Guest: Barney Frank, Eli Stokols, Ken Vogel, Chris Murphy, Ruth Marcus, Mollie Hemingway

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Tweet to tweet.

Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

Throughout the campaign, whenever Donald Trump was down, he knew he could rally his base by saying or tweeting something provocative, something many in the mainstream press would call crazy.

Well,the campaign`s over, but President-elect Donald Trump seems to be following the same pattern. Since winning, he`s attacked the media, gone after protesters and said millions of people illegally voted.

Well, today we awoke to a new tweet. Trump wrote, "Nobody should be allowed to burn the American flag. If they do, there must be consequences, perhaps loss of citizenship or a year in jail." Well -- or to repeat Trump`s earlier declaration on another matter, there needs to be some form of punishment.

Well, Trump seemed to be responding to the story about military veterans protesting a flag being burned on the campus of Hampshire College up in Massachusetts.

The Supreme Court, by the way, has twice ruled the act of burning a flag is protected by the 2nd Amendment. In fact, none other than the late Justice Antonin Scalia defended American`s right to do it. He said, "If it were up to me, I would put in jail every sandal-wearing scruffy bearded weirdo who burns the American flag, but I am not king." Good for him.

Some top Republicans also spoke out today. Here was Republican Congressman Kevin McCarthy and Senator Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), MAJORITY LEADER: Where I come from, you honor the flag. If someone wanted to show their 1st Amendment rights, I`d be afraid for their own safety, but we`ll protect our 1st Amendment.

QUESTION: OK, so to be clear, you don`t like it, as we`ve said, but you would believe that that`s protected under the 1st Amendment?

MCCARTHY: That`s what the court has upheld.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MAJORITY LEADER: The Supreme Court has held that that activity is a protected 1st Amendment right, a form of unpleasant speech, and in this country, we have a long tradition of respecting unpleasant speech. I happen to support the Supreme Court`s decision on that matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: So what`s Trump up to here? Barney Frank`s the former U.S. congressman from Massachusetts. Michael Steele`s the former chairman of the Republican National Committee and an MSNBC political analyst. And Eli Stokols is national political reporter for Politico.

Congressman Frank, it`s great to have you on. Tell me, what do you think about this morning glory of Trump`s this morning?

BARNEY FRANK (D), FMR. MASSACHUSETTS CONGRESSMAN: Well, it`s a diversionary tactic. Look, we know he`s a very clever politician at the tactical level. He`s got two serious problems he`s addressing because you also had this ridiculous claim, without any evidence whatsoever and contrary to what everyone knows, that millions of people voted against him.

So here are his two problems. First of all, he takes office as president who did worse in the popular vote. This is a man who wants to talk about his mandate to do all these great things, but a majority of the American people voted against him, by millions. So he`s trying to discredit that by this phony argument.

The other problem he has is this. He`s made a lot of promises that he isn`t going to be able to keep. He`s not going to build a wall. He`s not going to be able -- look, some of what he`s promised do is contrary to what he wants do. You want to help the little guy? You want to help stand up to big business, but you don`t abolish the Consumer Protection Financial Board and you don`t give tax breaks to very wealthy people disproportionately.

So what you have here -- he`s got to -- he`s got to find some way to take attention away from the fact that he is a minority president, almost an accidental president, who`s advocating, in fact, a lot of things that go against what he said.

So that`s why -- this notion that flag burning is a serious American problem, the only way to explain it is that this is a man who needs to -- he understands he`s got to begin to change the subject from his inability, I believe, to deliver on his promises.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about the first question. Does anybody believe that you can, under any Constitution -- reading of the Constitution, any Supreme Court we can imagine having, and having a statute agreed to by the court that you can be punished for flag burning?

ELI STOKOLS, POLITICO: No.

MATTHEWS: I`m with Michael Steele now...

(CROSSTALK)

MICHAEL STEELE, FMR. RNC CHAIR, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: No, I just don`t -- by any reading and interpretation by the court, I don`t see that, whether you`re talking about language, you know, that they`ve drawn...

MATTHEWS: I mean, Hillary supported, by the way, a year (ph) on this, but I thought that was a dodge to oppose -- to avoid having to come out for a constitutional amendment, which Democrats often do.

STEELE: It is an ugly form of speech, but it`s speech. It`s free speech. It is protected speech. It has not been cordoned off as some other speech has, like you can`t go into a theater and yell fire, that harms -- has potential to harm other individuals. This is a singular act by an individual who`s making a protest. The court recognizes and protects it.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

STEELE: So I think, though, you know, the congressman may be crediting Donald Trump with a little bit too much here. I don`t think that there`s some grand plan to sort of...

MATTHEWS: Why`s he do it?

(CROSSTALK)

STEELE: You know what I think it is? I think he got up and he saw this story about the burning of the flag on the college campus, and it just annoyed him and he just tweeted out, you know, Anyone who does that, by God, they should go to jail. I don`t think there`s any grand thinking behind this. This is just Donald Trump responding to something he saw viscerally, and that`s going to be the opening salvo on problems that this administration...

MATTHEWS: Yes. Yes. Eli...

STEELE: ... is going to encounter.

MATTHEWS: ... let`s understand our American culture a little bit clearer than we sometimes act like it. This wasn`t somebody at West Point doing this. This is somebody at Hampshire College...

STOKOLS: Right.

MATTHEWS: ... you know, an edgy college that`s a bit to the left and proud of it. And this kind of behavior wasn`t considered offbeat or even out of line in a place like that. That was considered a -- you know, a righteous statement of indignation over an election they didn`t like the results of, didn`t like the guy the way he talked. And people have a right do that. They have a right to do that.

STOKOLS: And it may be a compulsive reaction by Trump to just see that on Fox News, which is playing that story for that very reason, because it`s going to rile up conservatives who don`t like to see that. And Trump`s tweet may be compulsive, but it`s also muscle memory. He`s done this so many times, and he understands that when he goes out here and takes a side -- you know, I`m no constitutional expert, but it`s not just the 1st Amendment. It`s the 14th Amendment. You can`t expatriate and strip people of their citizenship when we`re up here throwing the flag...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: We agree...

STOKOLS: ... saying this is over the line.

STEELE: But he`s not...

STOKOLS: He`s distancing himself. Now, but he`s driving that wedge.

MATTHEWS: OK...

STOKOLS: He`s with his supporters. He`s saying to people who don`t like seeing the flag burn, I`m with you, and he manages to get the mainstream media and the establishment...

MATTHEWS: OK...

STOKOLS: We saw Mitch McConnell sitting there somehow seeming like they are defending flag burning when what they`re defending is actually the Constitution.

MATTHEWS: Yes, well, I think we can all agree right now, everybody at this table, all four of us, that you can`t outlaw flag burning and you can`t strip someone of their citizenship under the 14th Amendment. You`re born here, you stay here, basically, you`re an American.

Anyway, Congressman Frank, I have to ask you about something your former colleague -- I use the word very broadly -- Newt Gingrich said the other day. I thought it was pretty smart of him. He said that what Trump does, he said if the -- if the media`s going to chase a rabbit, I`ll pick the rabbit. I`ll just come up with something, they`ll chase it. This is an example perhaps. Your thoughts.

FRANK: Oh, absolutely. That`s -- you know, I disagree with this, Oh,he just got up in the morning and said it. Let`s not continue to underestimate this man`s shrewd tactical sense. He has a great ability to find out what might really anger people. And he`s clearly got problems because he didn`t just talk about this. He made the preposterous claim that there was voter fraud. He understands that, you know, when he starts proposing very controversial thing, the fact is that he is by far the most minority president we`ve ever had in this country.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

FRANK: It`s going to be a big problem. So this is, I think, part of a calculated strategy. I do think that maybe one kind of (INAUDIBLE) It is interesting that, as you noted, Scalia wrote the opinion and was very strongly on the other side of this, and he cited Scalia as his favorite judge. I think there was a pronunciation problem there. You know, Scalia was actually the leading advocate of fag burning, not flag burning.

(LAUGHTER)

FRANK: And I think that`s where he got himself a little confused.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let`s -- you want to -- no, that`s not funny. Anyway, let me go -- let me go to this thing here about Trump and his ability to keep contact with his people. I have a theory that he gets up every morning with flop sweat. And Congressman Frank may agree with this. He feels he`s lost his audience overnight. He`s got to reconnect with them. He`s always got to reconnect because even when he was doing well in the campaign, and when he was doing terribly, when his numbers were dropping and when they were holding, he always went past the teleprompter and said, No, I want this audience to react right now. I want to know they`re there. You know what I mean? He has to constantly check to see if he can connect with those people out there.

STOKOLS: Yes, he needs that...

MATTHEWS: And he does it every day.

STOKOLS: He has a need for...

MATTHEWS: Tweeting all the time.

STOKOLS: ... that sort of gratification almost constantly. You see him retweeting supporters, just regular people who are tweeting at him about how great he is or how the media`s terrible. Over the weekend, he`s bashing, you know, members of media by name just by retweeting things that his supporters are sending to him.

MATTHEWS: Let me go to Michael on this. (INAUDIBLE) on this, and back to you Congressman, after this. When you say -- I know that people have a legitimate -- sometimes legitimate concern about illegal immigration because we ought to be able to regular immigration in any country, and work permits make perfect sense everywhere else in the world.

But this idea that three million people somehow got the ability to get into voting booths in states like New Hampshire, where there aren`t many Mexican-Americans, or Mexican immigrants -- there are not that many...

STEELE: No.

MATTHEWS: ... and Virginia, there`s some, and somehow, they all got the license from local political Democrats to vote. And nobody noticed it? Nobody noticed several hundred thousand Mexicans who weren`t even Americans voting in New Hampshire? Nobody noticed this? I mean, why would his right-wing, most alt-right people believe this nonsense?

STEELE: Well, you know how the shifty Democrats are. They just kind of work the angles. Come on!

MATTHEWS: But three million votes popped up and nobody noticed it on election day?

STEELE: But this goes back to what Eli was saying about how Donald Trump kind of works the angles. And he works the angles with his base all the time. This is a continuation of a narrative that says -- you`re siting there thinking logically, Well, you won. Why are you having this fight?

MATTHEWS: Yes.

STEELE: Well, what it does is it reinforces the arguments he wants to make downstream. To Bernie`s -- Bernie`s...

MATTHEWS: Barney.

STEELE: ... Barney`s point, that`s the shrewdness of what he does. Not only does he...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: ... totally illogical?

STEELE: Well, he provides the rabbit, but I also digs the holes.

MATTHEWS: OK, let me go back. The metaphor is getting too complete here. Congressman, what is this three million people voting illegally? I mean -- I mean, you can imagine -- I assume there`s some illegal voting everywhere. Probably somebody shows up, maybe somebody who wants to be an American and isn`t documented who really, really wants to vote, votes on occasion. I don`t know.

But the idea of three million people, the Hillary surplus, if you will, over him?

FRANK: Oh, it`s nonsense. It doesn`t -- everybody who looked at this seriously understands these sorts of things don`t happen. By the way, there wasn`t a pattern in which that would have meant more votes not just for Hillary Clinton, but for Senate candidates, others who didn`t do as well.

But this is not -- you mentioned flop sweat. First of all, this man with his enormous ego claiming to be the tribune of the people obviously is unhappy that he has gotten a smaller percentage of the two-party popular vote than anybody`s ever been president. He`s behind her by 2.5 million votes. That clearly is a problem for him.

And secondly, when you talk about flop sweat -- he has already begun to back down on expelling 13 million people, on building the wall, on doing waterboarding. I have seen more -- he could have powered a state with the (INAUDIBLE) of the (INAUDIBLE) of his back-pedaling. So this is not accidental.

He is aware that he`s not going to be able to give the people, many of the ones who voted for him, what they most wanted, which is the economic situation, the war on immigrants, the wall. And this is a beginning of his effort to divert attention.

He`ll blame immigrants for illegal voting. That`s instead of being able to expel all of them. This is a pattern that he has followed. I think it`s going to get harder, though, because he`s now in charge, or he soon will be. He`ll be the president. He`ll have a Republican House and a Republican Senate. And he`s going to continue to look for scapegoats, but it`s going to be very hard, when you`re in total control of the government, to explain your failures.

MATTHEWS: Yes, when the trash doesn`t get collected on Thursday, you can`t blame Obama anymore. You`re going to have to blame the guy in charge. That is the tricky part of being elected.

STEELE: Oh, Obama was pretty good at it for a while, so we`ll see.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Well, I`ll blame him, too, for that stupid war. Anyway, thank you. U.S. Congressman Barney Frank, it`s good to have you on, sir, Michael Steele and Eli Stokols.

Coming up, Trump`s hunt for secretary of state. He`s running it like a special episode of "The Apprentice." And for Trump, the five men vying for the job each bring pluses and minuses to the boardroom table. And that`s all coming up next. Plus -- by the way, he`s having dinner with Mitt Romney tonight. Dinner with Andre.

Anyway, the thing that Democrats and Republicans are starting to agree on, by the way, is Russia`s role in the 2016 campaign. Members of Congress on both sides of the aisle are calling for an investigation into what Russia was up to and the impact it may have may have had on the presidential race. We`re going to talk to a top member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee about that.

And the HARDBALL roundtable is here tonight to tell us three things about the Trump transition that I don`t know.

Finally, let me finish with my "Trump Watch" for this Tuesday night, three weeks after the election.

And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Well, Donald Trump set to embark on a victory tour. His first stop will be a rally Thursday night in Cincinnati. Trump has promised a thank you tour to get back to the trail and visit the states he won, starting with Ohio, a state that twice went for Barack Obama.

We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Donald Trump continues to deliberate over his choice for secretary of state, and tonight he`s having dinner with Mitt Romney, who is viewed as a top contender for the post alongside Rudy Giuliani. Trump also met with Senator Bob Corker today and with David Petraeus yesterday, saying afterwards that he was very impressed with the former general.

While the candidates each have their own drawbacks, there`s continued backlash against Trump allies -- among them, rather, against Mitt Romney, who was an outspoken critic of Trump during the campaign. And here`s what Newt Gingrich had to say last night on Fox.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWT GINGRICH (R), FMR. HOUSE SPEAKER, FOX CONTRIBUTOR: It would be a huge mistake to betray that base on behalf of somebody who -- this is not like "Team of Rivals." There was nobody in Lincoln`s cabinet who was a bitter, unending opponent all the way through the general election, no one.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX HOST: Right.

GINGRICH: So this is a totally phony comparison.

HANNITY: I think the things that he said...

GINGRICH: And I think that it would be a significant mistake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: However, as "The Washington Post" reports, quote, "Trump is said to be intrigued by the notion of reconciling with one of his fiercest Republican antagonists, even as Giuliani, a fierce Trump loyalist, campaigns openly for the job."

I`m joined right now by Katie Packer, former adviser to Mitt Romney`s presidential campaign, as well as Ken Vogel, chief investigative reporter with Politico.

Katie, tell me about your thinking about -- first of all, everybody is sort of amazed -- not amazed, but a bit surprised that Mitt Romney wants to be secretary of state for Donald Trump. I know it`s representing the United States, but it`s a personal job. You`re the personal envoy of the president. He trashed him during the campaign, now he wants to be his to be cabinet official. Explain.

KATIE PACKER, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: I don`t know that we know that that`s what Mitt Romney wants. Mitt Romney is meeting with the president- elect.

MATTHEWS: Third meeting.

PACKER: I think it`s somebody that he feels he owes respect to because of the office, and that`s the way that Mitt Romney is wired. And I think that he would sit down and he would have these conversations.

Mitt Romney, obviously, in my mind, would be very good at handling foreign policy. I thought he would make a great president. And you can`t be a great president if you`re not qualified to be secretary of state.

MATTHEWS: Does he respect Donald Trump? Does he respect Donald Trump?

PACKER: I don`t know that he does. I mean, I think that...

MATTHEWS: That`s not a prerequisite?

(CROSSTALK)

PACKER: ... he said in the primary were pretty...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

PACKER: ... aggressive, and you know, were very telling about what thought. But I think it`s interesting that I think Donald Trump is somebody that needs people`s approval.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

PACKER: And this was a guy that, you know, castigated him very aggressively in the primary. And to have his approval now would be a big accomplishment for Donald Trump, and I think that matters to him.

MATTHEWS: You know, one of the problems, Ken, will be getting rid of the body, if you will. What does he do with Rudy Giuliani if he doesn`t give him the job? Because Rudy`s hung himself out there totally as the loyalist during the campaign. He`s done a lot of trash talk in favor of helping Trump when Trump needed help. When everybody else had abandoned him, he was there. When Trump was in trouble, Mitt Romney was dumping all over him.

KEN VOGEL, POLITICO: Yes, I mean, one of the things that my sources tell me that Rudy could be up for consideration for is the office of director national intelligence, sort of plays into some of his strengths as, you know, a tough-minded former prosecutor, and maybe also would have the advantage of not having, like, such a -- such harsh scrutiny during a confirmation hearing...

MATTHEWS: You think so?

VOGEL: ... whereas secretary of state...

MATTHEWS: You`re an investigative reporter. You really think he`s going to get a softer ride for a lesser job?

VOGEL: I mean, I think that...

MATTHEWS: He may get to pay higher for a lesser job.

(LAUGHTER)

VOGEL: Potentially. And there is certainly a lot of fodder out there of some of the clients that he represented.

MATTHEWS: Would you take -- would you take that job and give up your fortune you were making in the private sector if you...

(CROSSTALK)

VOGEL: I mean, I think he wants to be -- he has clearly shown he wants to be part of the administration. And so I think probably he would take what was offered. And it may not be.

It`s looking like it may -- it`s almost certainly not going to be secretary of state.

MATTHEWS: I think he will take it as an insult.

What do you think?

PACKER: Well, when you hear the word diplomacy, I`m not sure that Rudy Giuliani`s picture pops up into your head.

VOGEL: I mean, either he nor Romney.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: That`s right.

I just tell you -- well, let me talk about Petraeus, because you don`t drag a guy like that through this, this situation, unless you`re looking at himself seriously. I think Petraeus is being looked at. I think he brings the grit of Giuliani, but also the worldwide reputation of a warrior.

VOGEL: Right.

And he certainly has unquestioned foreign policy experience. There is obviously the optics issue there that what he got in trouble for, mishandling of classified information, was something that Donald Trump criticized Hillary Clinton so vociferously for.

MATTHEWS: Do you think maybe ever time he shows up overseas for a meeting with a world leader, a beautiful woman will meet him at the airport, nice to meet you, General, can we have dinner tonight?

PACKER: Strong tactic.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: I understand you`re like -- you`re interested in journalism.

(LAUGHTER)

VOGEL: Right.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, so let`s talk about these other appointments today.

Anyway, first of all, "The Post" also reports that Trump is looking for assurances that Romney could be trusted to defend and promote Trump`s markedly different world view in capitals around the globe. For one, Trump`s accommodating stance toward Russia is at odds of that of Romney, who had four years ago criticized Vladimir Putin as a top geopolitical foe.

Here he was, Mitt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITT ROMNEY (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Russia, I indicated, is a geopolitical foe. I have clear eyes on this. I`m not going to wear rose- colored glasses when it comes to Russia or Mr. Putin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, conservative radio host Laura Ingraham today raised Romney`s differences toward Russia as a concern for Trump and his backers. Here she is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAURA INGRAHAM, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: What does Romney want to do with Russia? Are we going to invade Lithuania. If Russia goes into Lithuania, are we prepared to do that? OK?

We should talk about that, because I think that would probably surprise a lot of the Republican voters who supported Donald Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: I get the feeling that your guy Romney is not the most original thinker. Now, you may like him, a decent guy. He could make a good family guy.

I don`t think comes up with original ideas, Donald Trump -- or Mitt Romney. I think he has inherited the mentality of the Cold War. He inherited the mentality of the Cold War. Russia is bad, we`re good, keep it simple, that sort of Manichaean view of the world. The Russians are the bad guys, they`re still KGB, they`re still commies, if you will.

And how is he going to go along with a guy who believes that our international partner is going to be Vladimir Putin? How does he go along with a 180 philosophy from his own?

PACKER: Look, I remain very skeptical that this job is going to be offered or that he is going to accept this job.

I am very skeptical that that is going to happen. That said, I do think that Mitt Romney is somebody that seeks out a lot of expert opinion. He`s very well read, very well studied on these issues. And so I think that this notion that he`s just adopted a foreign policy from Ronald Reagan isn`t quite on the mark.

VOGEL: Chris, on Russia, which is really the point of conflict that we see most there between the Romney and the Trump foreign policies, to the extent that there are any, it`s important to point out two things.

First of all, Romney was a little bit outside of the mainstream of the foreign policy community when he said that. And he was prescient. There were people who were talking about the warm -- Hillary Clinton`s famous reset with Russia.

Number two is, Romney and what he just said there is a lot closer to the Republican foreign policy establishment, as well as just the foreign policy community generally, than Trump is.

MATTHEWS: But Republicans didn`t win this election. Trump did.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Let me tell you why I like Trump`s foreign policy, because I think, basically, what he`s trying to do is avoiding us getting into the Middle East mess any deeper than we are and hoping there`s some way we can leverage some kind of relationship with Russia to get Russia to move the Assad family out of the throne somehow, because that`s the only way it`s going to work, some kind of accommodation where we say, OK, we will give you three, four years or we`re going to cantonize that country, so the Alawites get a little bit of Syria, and the rest of the country gets to have its own Sunni form of government.

And I think somebody has got to do that. And the neocons say, oh, we will just fight over there. No, that is not going to work. This fighting, regime change thing has made it worse, worse, worse, Katie.

So I`m totally against the stuff that got us into Iraq, got us into Afghanistan, got us into Syria, got us into Libya. I think we have got to go with a new approach that leverages international geopolitical deals that somehow isolates Assad to the point where he`s willing to take a smaller piece of that country and end this war, because our friends aren`t going to do it for us.

PACKER: No matter who the secretary of state is, that is not going to be the person that is developing the foreign policy.

The job of the secretary of state is to advocate the president`s foreign policy. And I think that is something that Donald Trump needs to flesh out a bit.

MATTHEWS: I think that is one part of his policy I can get into, if it means getting the Assad family out of the overall war over there and stop the killing, because we have got to stop that killing.

Katie Packer, happy holidays to you.

PACKER: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: And happy holidays to you, Ken Vogel.

Coming up -- I can`t figure your politics out, though. We will get there.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: Coming up -- you`re an investigative reporter.

One thing Democrats and Republicans are beginning to agree on is the need to investigate what role Russia did play in our own 2016 race here. The latest on that coming up next. This is going to be hot.

And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Well, during the election, then candidate Donald Trump famously promised to improve ties with Russia. Let`s watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I said, why wouldn`t we want and wouldn`t it be nice if we could get along with Russia and get along with some of them?

What, are we crazy? They say Donald Trump loves Putin. I don`t love. I don`t hate. We will see how it works. We will see. I think I would get along very well with Vladimir Putin. If we could get Russia to help us get rid of ISIS, if we could actually be friendly with Russia, wouldn`t that be a good thing? Is that so bad?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, during the campaign, American security agencies suspected Russia and Vladimir Putin himself of orchestrating a breathtaking cyber- attack into undermining U.S. democracy.

In October, the U.S. formally accused the Kremlin of directing hacks of the Democratic National Committee. And last Friday, "The Washington Post" reported that Russia helped spread fake news in an effort to damage Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton. Specifically, Russia`s propaganda arm, Sputnik, it`s called, falsely alleged that Clinton was taking a Parkinson`s drug to treat fatigue and that a U.S. base in Turkey was surrounded by Turkish troops during last summer`s coup.

Well, the Kremlin`s propaganda machine also pushed a fake story that people were paid to protest at Trump rallies. Some of these stories were read more than eight million times.

For now, I`m joined right now by Malcolm Nance, MSNBC terrorism analyst and author of "The Plot to Hack America."

Malcolm, give us a sense. We know about the hacking of the DNC material and John Podesta`s, and that served to sort of create a little mishegas in the Democratic world, embarrass some people. Donna Brazile, people like that got into trouble over that. So we know that part.

Tell us about the other part of their mischief-making here, this fake news, this attempt to create propaganda that gets in to the hearts and minds of voters here.

MALCOLM NANCE, NBC TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, it`s been very, very well documented over the last three to four months that Russia has -- and we have always known this, because, as you said a little earlier, people running around chasing the KGB and the Soviet Union.

The country may have changed its political leadership, but they have not changed their propaganda and intelligence operations machinery.

And they applied every aspect of that against this U.S. election, including highly detailed propaganda organizations and using their state organ, Sputnik, Russia Today, and paid trolls who operate -- and "The New York Times" identified them operating out of St. Petersburg, the trolls of Olgino, who created thousands of pro-Trump organizations and Twitter feeds and Facebook feeds and spread propaganda on a massive scale.

MATTHEWS: How do they get -- have there ever been examples where they penetrate into the mainstream press here, or they gotten into one of the major news networks? Have they gotten into any of the major quality newspapers?

Have they broken into our system where -- which we do -- I know the right doesn`t, but I trust? Have they ever broken through the wall into real journalism here?

NANCE: Well, I personally can`t attest to them breaking in to the mainstream media.

But what I can attest to is that they broke through the entirety of the alternative media world that guided all of the Trump campaign, tweets coming from Donald Trump and tweets going throughout their entire constellation of pro-Trump organizations.

Russia practically ran that. I myself have been attacked by pro-Trump trolls and featured in Sputnik once it came out that we had identified their intelligence operation.

MATTHEWS: What do you think their primary goal, if they have one -- was it to get Trump elected or it was to diminish the worldwide respect for our democracy?

NANCE: I would like to think that an organization of the FSB`s magnitude, led by a former director of -- a former KGB officer and director of the FSB, would only want to create mischief and mayhem in the United States electoral system.

But the process was so deliberate. An operational operation like this would have taken hundreds of operators who would have had to have watched carefully the machinery of the United States on a minute-to-minute basis with regards to hacking and leaking the information in the way that they did.

To do that, that means that they were -- and obviously they only favored one candidate. And that candidate was elected.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

And clearly going after the Democratic National Committee and embarrassing the people with all those e-mails clearly was not addressed to the Republican National Committee at all.

NANCE: No, not at all.

As a matter of fact, the only hacks that occurred, as we understand it, was Lindsey Graham, an adamant opponent against Russia in the Ukraine, John McCain and Colin Powell, Colin Powell, who would have been the most noteworthy of the conservatives who would have endorsed Hillary Clinton. And they took him out very early by mid-September.

So this was Watergate 2.0. Only, they got away with everything.

MATTHEWS: I love your reporting. Thank you so much, Malcolm Nance. It`s fabulous having you on.

We`re now joined by Democratic Senator Chris Murphy, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He`s up in -- he`s from Connecticut.

Senator Murphy, thank you. I bumped into you last night on another show. We like to have you here, of course, as often as possible.

What can the Senate do in a bipartisan fashion to really do kind of an old Fulbright kind of investigation we`re all proud of, or Frank Church investigation, and really bring to light what the Russians attempted to do, what they got away with, and the consequences of their nasty or mischievous work here in this country?

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D), CONNECTICUT: Well, I think there are two things that we can do.

One, as you noted, is, we can have a bipartisan investigation, and we can do it right now. There is no reason to wait until Trump is inaugurated. We can begin to start that investigation to collect the information right now and put it on the record to have open hearings talking about what the Russians did to try influence this election.

Maybe they didn`t break into the mainstream media, but the fact of the matter is, most swing voters are getting their information from Facebook. And they clearly penetrated that space.

If they get away with it, without any investigation from Congress, without any repercussions, then what we`re seeing is just the tip of the iceberg. We know that the Russians were trying to penetrate voter files. Penetrating voter files is the precursor to actually being able to manipulate Election Day results.

That is the next step for the Russians, if they don`t feel that there were any repercussions here. The second step, Chris, though, is that at the end of that investigation, which will find that they successful manipulated this election in favor of Trump, is sanctions. Now, we have sanctioned the Russians for trying to manipulate elections in Ukraine. Why wouldn`t we sanction them for trying to manipulate elections here? That has to be part of this as well.

MATTHEWS: OK. How could they manipulate the vote? How could they manipulate the vote count? How could they do that?

MURPHY: Well, so they can go into the voter files, right? They can go in and compromise voter files.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: How can they do it? Tell me how it works. How does a Mr. Jones show up in Philly or Connecticut and vote somehow that doesn`t exist? How do any create a number of new votes that aren`t there legally?

MURPHY: So, in many states, voter files are online, but the election results are not.

What would happen, if on Election Day, Democrats showed up to the polls and found out that their names had been erased from the voter files and Republicans` had not.

MATTHEWS: I see.

MURPHY: There are clearly ways that you can manipulate voter files without manipulating the machines themselves to influence an election.

And why were they trying to penetrate these voter files if it wasn`t to try to influence the election in favor of Trump, which clearly was their rationale all along?

MATTHEWS: I will promise you this, Senator. If you do this investigation on the level that Fulbright and people like Frank Church did in the old days, you are going to get a lot of attention.

This country wants to know the answer, because this may be the first time they really showed their face in this country in terms of interfering with our democracy, something they don`t have, by the way. I would like to make sure we stop them at the wall right now.

Thank you so much, Senator Chris Murphy, member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He`s a senator from Connecticut.

Up next, the HARDBALL roundtable is going to be here, as Trump takes to Twitter, of course, to skewer his critics and throw red meat to his base. I think that`s what he does every morning. They have got to be fed. Is this a sign of how he will govern?

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWT GINGRICH (R), FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: He is a cross between Andrew Jackson`s disruptiveness and Theodore Roosevelt`s constant energy and unending energy, and a little PT Barnum salesmanship thrown in, you know, that`s who Donald Trump is.

The fact is Donald Trump was very successful with "The Apprentice." It was a remarkably popular show. He understands the value of tension. He understands the value of showmanship. And candidly, the news media is going to chase a rabbit. So, it`s better off for him to give them a rabbit than for them to go off and find their own rabbit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS MATTHEWS, CNN ANCHOR: Absolutely. Marshall McLuhan (ph) at this best as Newt Gingrich.

Anyway, welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was one of Donald Trump`s top supporters, Newt Gingrich, saying Trump has a little P.T. Barnum in him. He was referring to Trump`s ability to get the media fixated on stories like the selection process for secretary of state, or his latest treat or tweet.

Actually, Trump has also controlled the media narrative by tossing out tweets on topics that are red meat for his base, flag burning, allegations of voter fraud and also, over the top attacks on the media itself.

What does it say about how Trump will run the White House and the country for the next four or even eight years?

I`m joined by tonight`s round table. Ruth Marcus is a columnist I often agree with, in fact always, with "The Washington Post". She`s also deputy editorial page director. Jonathan Capehart is opinion writer we missed from "The Washington Post" and an MSNBC contributor, and Mollie Hemingway is senior editor for "The Federalist".

I want to start with Ruth on this.

What is your gut reason why Donald Trump wakes up -- by the way, he gets up like a nun. He`s up in 5:00 in the morning, I don`t think he`s praying.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: He`s up so early because we know by the tweet clock. Why does he get up and immediately hears something on FOX or something on Rush, something -- not Rush at that time, but interest where he hears that military veterans are complaining of what was done at a left wing college up in Massachusetts which is always going to Hampshire`s Hampshire. We know what it is.

So what? And he gets all excited about it. Why?

RUTH MARCUS, THE WASHINGTON POST: Most of us need a little bit caffeination before we get that worked up, for (ph) Donald Trump at 3:00 in the morning. Look, you know how -- did your mom used to tell to you think before you spoke and to count to ten?

MATTHEWS: Jefferson did that.

MARCUS: Nobody ever told Donald Trump to count to ten and he needs a few things --

MATTHEWS: Would he be pressed, he`d be counting to ten?

MARCUS: Maybe not.

MATTHEWS: OK.

MARCUS: He needs to be heard and if something annoys him, he doesn`t know how to hold it in.

MATTHEWS: Did you hear the story somebody once counseled him if you`re mad, express it and get over with it, and you will live longer?

MARCUS: Yes, I heard that. It might help you live longer. For most people, it doesn`t help them in their business and professional life. It may be, as you said, for Donald Trump.

MATTHEWS: Somebody once said in New York, I think it must have been. I don`t get ulcers, I give ulcers.

Go ahead.

JONATHAN CAPEHART, THE WASHINGTON POST: Probably Donald Trump`s mantra.

Look, what we see here is Donald Trump continuing what he views as a winning strategy. He tweeted throughout the campaign. He picked fights all throughout the campaign. And therefore, of course, he`s going to try to use it in the presidency.

MATTHEWS: Why does it work?

CAPEHART: That`s --

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: You don`t want to know the answer, do you?

CAPEHART: Well, no, I think I know the answer, but it`s just -- you know, if this is what we have to look forward to over the next four years, he was elected three weeks ago tonight.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

CAPEHART: I`m already exhausted. And he`s not even president of the United States yet.

MOLLIE HEMINGWAY, THE FEDERALIST: That`s part of how if works. He knows how to bait people. He knows how to bait not just the media, but the left. He just announced that he`s going on a thank you tour where I imagine you might see people on the left protesting by burning flags.

Burning flags is very unpopular, it`s protected according to a very narrowly decided Supreme Court decision, but it still remains very unpopular. People use it as a wedge issue all the time.

MATTHEWS: Scalia was on the side of free speech.

HEMINGWAY: I mean, Scalia was the fifth vote, in that very close decision. But he doesn`t have anything to distract from. So, the only thing that`s weird is, why did he tweet it now when he doesn`t need to distract from some other story.

CAPEHART: That we know of. That`s the thing.

MARCUS: Because it made him pop up.

Look, this worked for him during the campaign. I have a question about whether it`s going to work as well in the presidency, because being president is different. People expect something different from you.

And he`s going to war with the Constitution here. He`s going to war with Justice Scalia.

MATTHEWS: Reagan ran against the government for eight years as president.

MARCUS: And what he says matters in a different way than three weeks ago.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let me try something by to help explain. You may not agree, because I don`t think you like to ingest it, certainly don`t want to digest it.

CAPEHART: Yes.

MATTHEWS: Could it be that everything that he said -- we did a program on this last week, "How Not to Run to President and Still Win" -- it could be that every single thing he does from the grossest thing we don`t like, to the sort of the comical to the whatever, to the tragic, every single thing Trump says is I`m not one of them. I`m not one of the politicians run this country. They don`t talk like me, I don`t talk like them. I`m different than them.

They`re the problem, I`m not. Explain, 62 million votes. He didn`t get the most number of votes, Hillary did.

CAPEHART: Yes, he did not get the most number of votes.

MATTHEWS: But he got 62 million votes.

CAPEHART: Sure, but most of those people thought that he was unqualified to be president of the United States.

MATTHEWS: Explain that.

CAPEHART: Look, people are angry, people are tired. But I do think that at some point, that people are going to tire of this guy and the way that he serves in the role of president. I agree with Ruth on this.

When you are president, at least that`s what the rules have said in the past, that when you occupy the office, actually become president of the United States, you must -- well, I don`t know if change is the right word, but you must conform to the confines of the presidency. I`m not so sure that he will. But, you know, to Newt Gingrich`s point about the rabbit, gives people the rab -- this is what we have to look forward to.

And this is the question I`m always going to ask myself when Donald Trump goes on these tweet storms. What is he trying to distract from? He might be angry. He might be piqued by something. But what is he trying to get us to not pay attention to --

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I know everybody is saying that now. I heard Begala tried that one last night. Everybody -- you`re not one, but all the Democratic, what they call, spokespeople, surrogates, are all doing that number now. They`re all saying he`s not doing it for any other reason than to hide something they want to attack.

HEMINGWAY: There are a lot of issues of people -- when he won and everyone freaked out, there was this sort of period where people allowed the freak out to continue. And then they see things about flag burning and flags being flown at half-mast and whatnot, and there is a huge portion of the population that hates things like this. And they don`t --

MATTHEWS: Most of the country doesn`t like it.

HEMINGWAY: I agree. And they`re not getting their views represented very well in major media still. So, he can just cut out the gatekeeper, speak directly to them with tweeting. He has no incentive to stop tweeting, so long as he has a different message than what they`re going to get from many other media gatekeepers. It`s going to continue.

MATTHEWS: By the way, on this issue of flag burning, because you talked about it being, there is one person who is a friend of mine who is a member of Congress, still is a member in the Senate now, and he made a case and he said, you know, he`s a liberal, but he said, you know, the flag is draped on the coffins of the people coming home who fought our wars and defended this country. And you got to think about in a as being a special category to think, maybe not yelling fire in a theater, but there`s something about its ability to incite people.

You know, it`s close to that. It really gets to the heart of your love of your country, the flag. And I know it`s symbolic and I know it`s speech and I know it`s under the First Amendment, but there is a reason why it enrages people.

HEMINGWAY: And, in fact, that would be a good way for the media to think about this, that this is a bigger discussion about patriotism and what it means to be American and what we think about our funding.

MARCUS: It would make people like me feel better if the tweet or the next tweet or the tweet after that had indicated some awareness that this was an issue that the Supreme Court had decided on, that this was an issue that the First Amendment protects and yet I disagree, right?

MATTHEWS: Yes. It`s like a lot of issues. If you get away from the rights issue, your right do it, and whether should you do it or not, and when you should do it, it better be an extreme case if you`re going to burn the flag I think. It must be something really important.

Anyway, the roundtable is sticking with us. And up next, these three will tell me something I don`t know.

And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Hillary Clinton`s lead in the popular vote, by the way, continues to grow. It`s up to 2.3 million votes or 1.6 percentage points. That`s the widest margin for a losing presidential candidate since 1876. And now, the last presidential candidate who won the popular vote but lost the election says it`s time to ditch the Electoral College.

Here`s Al Gore earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: It`s pathetic how our system is not working today. And I think that moving to a popular vote for president would be one of the initiatives, getting money out of the process, which is another difficult challenge. But if we can do three or four things that could bring our democracy back to life and help us to make good decisions again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Of course, Al Gore won the popular vote by about 600,000 votes. So, we all can understand how he might prefer that measure of victory.

We`ll be right back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: We`re back with the HARDBALL roundtable.

And NBC News has just confirmed that Trump is expected to name Steven Mnuchin as his pick for treasury secretary as early as tomorrow. That`s according to a top transition source.

Jonathan, what do you make of that pick?

CAPEHART: Well, it`s interesting. Here`s a guy who has no government experience, comes from Goldman Sachs. So, he comes from the world of big business, from California, the world of Hollywood. And so, I think it`s just yet another curious selection by the president-elect.

MATTHEWS: Royalty rules.

CAPEHART: Exactly.

MATTHEWS: Ruth?

MARCUS: So much for populism. Seems like just yesterday we were railing against Goldman Sachs speeches and wives who worked for Goldman Sachs.

MATTHEWS: Hillary (INAUDIBLE) a quarter million a speech.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Mollie?

HEMINGWAY: Cronyism always wins and no matter who is elected and that`s true. And you`re seeing this with other decisions that Trump is making as well.

MATTHEWS: But that`s not news. What else you got?

HEMINGWAY: For instance, he`s put people in transition at EPA who are very focused on pulling back regulations and doing regulatory reform based on Trump`s theory that environmental regulations are very damaging to American business.

MATTHEWS: OK, thank you. Ruth Marcus, Jonathan Capehart, and Mollie Hemingway.

When we return, let me finish with Trump Watch.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Trump Watch, Tuesday, November 29th, 2016.

I noticed during the campaign that Mr. Trump couldn`t give up the stuff he did in front of crowds, even when the people close to him said to stop throwing out those lines, to quit the shots at opponents, he wouldn`t or couldn`t. He just had to have that constant fix of audience reaction. Need to know he had direct contact with the Trump people out there, whether in the audience in front of him or those watching on television.

What Trump fears most, what all who perform in public do is flop sweat. The knowledge that you`ve lost the audience, that people are no longer hanging on and getting excited by your every word.

Today, at dawn, Donald Trump rose and said, "Nobody should be allowed to burn the American flag. If they do, there must be consequences -- perhaps loss of citizenship or year in jail."

What was this about, people began asking early today? Once again Trump had, in Newt Gingrich`s words, given us in the media a rabbit to chase.

But is Trump himself chasing? Is it another headline, another moment of national attention? Or is it what got him to victory in this campaign, a message to the country that he is not just another politician?

I think that`s precisely what it is -- another declaration in real time that he`s not one of them. Expect a lot of this the next four years. What it has to do with governing? Unclear. What it has to do with politics? In Trump`s mind, is the name of his game.

And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END