Show: HARDBALL Date: November 9, 2016 Guest: Anne Gearan, John Brabender, Steve McMahon, Andrew Sullivan, April Ryan, Caitlin Huey-Burns, Jamil Smith, McKay Coppins
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: Welcome back to our second hour of this special post-election edition of HARDBALL.
Here`s the new reality in the country. Donald Trump will be the next president of the United States. He will be commander-in-chief, as well -- also, if you will, leader of the free world.
His victory over Hillary Clinton stunned the country and the world. Major pieces of President Obama`s legacy are now seriously at risk -- the Affordable Care Act, executive actions on immigration, even the Iran nuclear deal.
Trump crashed through the Republican establishment during months of the scorched-earth primary campaigning. He went on to run against Clinton, Hillary Clinton, calling her a liar, unhinged, unfit, even a criminal. He has vowed to build a wall between the United States and Mexico and to ban Muslims from entering this country.
Which promises will he try to keep? And how does he unite a country seeming to fray at the edges over yesterday`s election?
Here was the country`s president-elect shortly before 3:00 in the morning. Let`s watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: For those who have chosen not to support me in the past, of which there were a few people...
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: ... I`m reaching out to you for your guidance and your help so that we can work together and unify our great country.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, several hours later, Hillary Clinton delivered a powerful and I thought wonderful concession speech this morning offering support for the country`s next president. Here she is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), FMR. PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Last night, I congratulated Donald Trump and offered to work with him on behalf of our country. I hope that he will be a successful president for all Americans. This is not the outcome we wanted or we worked so hard for, and I`m sorry that we did not win this election for the values we share and the vision we hold for our country.
Donald Trump is going to be our president. We owe him an open mind and the chance to lead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Never seen Bill Clinton look quite like that. He is drawn. He is -- boy, something to see, that expression.
I`m joined right now by "The Washington Post`s" Robert Costa and Anne Gearan. (INAUDIBLE) you guys. Let me start with Anne. In terms of -- I was saying this earlier. I walked down the streets of Manhattan up here. And because I`m on this network and people know my attitudes about things, they come up to me and they`re scared, depressed, despair, desperate even, almost clinging to me. It was quite an experience I`ve never had before.
And -- well, you`re a straight reporter and I don`t know how they react to you, but people are scared.
ANNE GEARAN, "WASHINGTON POST": Yes. I mean -- I mean, a lot of people react by saying, I told you so. And you know, We saw it coming. How come you dummies in the media didn`t see it?
MATTHEWS: All those geniuses.
GEARAN: Right, you know? It`s a point, right? But I think no one has really figured out what this means and the reckoning that it will require in terms of what is Democratic Party now? It`s no longer the party of Clinton. So what is it? What were the, you know, effects for -- what happens in the Senate? The Republicans retained the majority.
MATTHEWS: Yes. Well, let`s go back and forth on this between you and Robert. Robert, you`ve been on the tail of Donald Trump since the beginning of his first burp of interest in this presidency. And I have to tell you, you`ve been a great reporter. You know I think that.
But trying to figure him out -- you`re no Clinton -- you`re no Trump hater, that`s for sure. You understand his appeal. I think you understand a bit of his psyche.
Does he feel -- does he seem like the guy that`s committed to some of the outrageous things he says he was going to do as president, or are they just part of a means to an end of getting there and he`ll come up with what he thinks is the right politically smart policy once he is in office?
ROBERT COSTA, "WASHINGTON POST," MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: He is a former Democrat. He`s someone who thought about running for president in 1999, ahead of the 2000 cycle, because he was uncomfortable with Pat Buchanan`s hard-line politics on immigration.
So where he is today politically, on issues like immigration, it`s been an evolution for Trump to get here. It`s going to be very interesting to see how he handles actually being president of the United States.
Talking to top Republicans today, there is a sense that they believe they can get their ideological proposal, a whole program, through the Congress because they have both houses in congress, both chambers, and then on tax reform, on repealing the Affordable Care Act -- there`s a whole range of issues they think they`re going to be OK working with Trump on.
MATTHEWS: What about the Democrats? Let`s talk about the Democrats because their first line -- first point of contact with Trump will be as leaders of the opposition. And they`ll have to decide whatever Trump says he wants to do in his first 100 days, including his appointments -- the Democrats could filibuster and say, You`re going to take -- you`re going to need 60 votes to get anything done. And we`re going to insist on that. They could stop him.
GEARAN: Right. I mean, that`s what I meant. Do the Democrats now do, you know, to a Republican president what Barack Obama...
MATTHEWS: Mitch McConnell would like to do.
GEARAN: Yes, exactly, that the -- just -- this -- you will not get anything passed. You will not have any legislative successes, if we can possibly help it. We will stop everything. That`s the way the Democrats view what`s happened to them in the Senate. And it`s going to be -- it`s going to be a political choice. It`s going to be...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
GEARAN: ... you know, a legislative, moral choice. What do they do...
MATTHEWS: There`s a difference between the two parties, though. Maybe I`m being optimistic for the Democrats, but they`re the party of government. They believe in government working. They`re not into this idea of, if you stop it, if you slow it down, if you destroy it, if you freeze it up, you know, if you shut it down, that`s a win.
(CROSSTALK)
GEARAN: I think you`re an optimist.
MATTHEWS: Well, I -- do you think Democrats...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Pardon?
COSTA: Listen to what they say.
MATTHEWS: Go ahead.
COSTA: Talking about infrastructure. They`re talking about infrastructure in their statements. They know on stuff -- when you talk to Democrats today on the phone, they know on things like the wall they`re likely not going to be with Trump. But they see in Trump someone who`s not a Paul Ryan. He`s not a Ronald Reagan in terms of how he sees the world...
MATTHEWS: I agree.
COSTA: ... how he sees conservative policy. And so he may get the Supreme Court. He may let tax reform come through for the speaker. But on something like infrastructure, he`s not a traditional Republican.
MATTHEWS: I agree completely. I had an argument here last night. I believe that there`s a lot of people in appropriations on the Republican side. There`s certainly a lot of Democrats who love creating jobs, love spending money to create jobs. It`s what Democrats do, public works going back to Franklin Roosevelt.
I don`t know why they can`t fix all the bridges, fix the airports, fix the train stations, like Penn Station, which is hell in the basement here, you know? It`s terrible. And LaGuardia ain`t something pretty to look at, either, most of it.
And also, the idea of a rail -- how about a train system that isn`t rock and roll all the way from Washington to New York? I mean, there`s so much they can do that would create real jobs paying real money. And you`d think the unions would be dying for somebody like Trump to come along and spend some money. Borrow it at 2 percent. It`s not going to break the country at this interest rate.
GEARAN: I mean, I think if Trump indeed wants to have a national infrastructure and jobs program, I mean, that`s something that Clinton proposed, and he seems to have some similar ideas. That is indeed something that Democrats could get behind in the Senate.
MATTHEWS: You know, he is a builder. I heard him last night. By the way, one reason why I have more -- I think he`s smarter than a lot of people, his critics, think. I don`t like the terrible things he said in the campaign, but I think he is smart. Robert, I think you agree.
But let me ask you about the brains. Last night in the middle of the turbulence, when you saw the markets in Europe and around the world dropping 800 points, he goes out on that stage and gives a calm speech. And guess what? We get up this morning with a big, you know, bullish market here in the Dow. So he knew what he had to do. Your thoughts.
COSTA: I`ve never seen him that emotional, that face -- covered him for so long, very rarely like that.
I think Anne brings up a point about the Democrats that`s spot on. There`s a lot of moral concerns about the Trump on the D side. The most important relationship in Washington right now, Senator Schumer of New York, Donald Trump, two New Yorkers, big personalities. They`re deal makers at the heart. Most of their associates say that. Can they come together on some big ticket items?
MATTHEWS: You`re so smart. That`s where the action`s going to be.
GEARAN: And they know one another.
MATTHEWS: It`s going to be up on the Hill, and what kind of a congressional relations operations Trump runs. I was saying this about Hillary a couple hours ago, when I thought it was going to be Hillary. Same answer. Smart congressional relations led by the chief of staff, whoever he picks.
GEARAN: That was her whole game plan.
MATTHEWS: Because the chief of staff, male or female, old or young, is the key person in any congressional deal. They`re the ones that tell the people on the Hill what deals to strike.
Clinton delivered a -- Hillary Clinton delivered a strong positive speech that I thought was wonderful. It offered optimism. She hit all the points, including thanking the workers, which is something that you really have to do. It`s the reason you give a concession speech is to thank the troops. Let`s watch her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Our constitutional democracy enshrines the peaceful transfer of power. And we don`t just respect that, we cherish it.
I count my blessings every single day that I am an American. And I still believe as deeply as I ever have that if we stand together and work together with respect for our differences, strength in our convictions and love for this nation, our best days are still ahead of us.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Any chance of a peace treaty between those two? Am I too optimistic? Hillary Clinton lost the race for the Democratic nomination eight years ago and was offered the best job on the planet, which is secretary of state for the United States. Any hope there that she`ll be offered anything by Trump that she might even consider taking?
GEARAN: I doubt that either he would offer or she would accept. But I do expect that there`ll be a rapprochement. First of all, they know one another -- knew one another socially, if not -- they weren`t close friends, but they did know one another in their previous lives. There`s no reason to think that Trump wouldn`t try to make some kind of gesture to her.
And you`re right about her, you know, thanking the troops. And she went that one better later in the afternoon. She called in to an ice cream social staff meeting at the Brooklyn campaign headquarters and thanked everyone there. And I`m told that that went a long way to making people`s feelings -- easing people`s feelings.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Go ahead, Robert.
COSTA: Chris, you know what that was? You got the president coming out today, conciliatory tone, peaceful transfer of power. You got Secretary Clinton getting up on stage, same tone. It`s a message to Trump, president-elect, that they want this country to move on, have a peaceful transition to power. And it showed some class for someone who`s a total outsider. That`s a message to the new president-elect. Can he bring that same kind of message and approach to Washington?
MATTHEWS: It`s so much better, guys, than what we saw eight years ago when Barack Obama was elected. Remember, they were meeting at that Indian restaurant down near the White House, plotting the demise of a president who was just taking office, or Mitch McConnell saying his number one goal on earth was to defeat Barack Obama for his second term?
GEARAN: Well, Mitch McConnell got exactly what he wanted, which is, you know, an open Supreme Court seat that Donald Trump is going to fill. There`s really no -- that`s exactly what he was hoping would happen.
MATTHEWS: We`ll see. Maybe the best job for both of them is to put Merrick Garland in there and move on because I don`t think they`re going to get somebody to the right of him or left of him. Anyway, thank you.
At a press conference today, Speaker of the House Paul Ryan promised to work with the president-elect in the new government. Let`s watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I think what Donald Trump just pulled off is an enormous political feat. It`s an enormous feat in that he heard those voices that were out there that other people weren`t hearing. And he just earned a mandate, and we just now have a unified Republican government.
I`m really proud of the fact that for the first time since 1984, Wisconsin`s 10 electoral votes went to Republicans. This is an enormous feat. Frankly, you saw the market bull (ph). I mean, Charles, you saw it. We didn`t think it could happen. Donald Trump turned it on its head. Donald Trump delivered the 10 electoral votes, and by the way, he helped elect a strong majority in the Senate and a strong majority in the House.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, you`re watching there the adaptability and the agility of a speedy shortstop. He quickly adapted to the hop of the ball.
Anyway, thank you, Robert Costa. Thank you, Anne Gearan.
Coming up -- last night`s election showed just how divided the country is. Blue America and the elites in Washington and New York had no clue -- I got to tell you, no clue this was coming. And why not? We`ll get some answers. I feel like a tough guy here.
We`re going to have -- we`ve been watching protesters by (ph) the streets of New York up here now. They`re on the march in Chicago, demonstrating against Trump`s election. It`s a little late for that. But we`ll keep an eye on those protests. I bet they`ll be nonviolent.
And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. The division between red and blue America is as stark as it`s ever been. But last night, it was rural and small town America that fueled Donald Trump`s historic victory, upset victory. For Hillary Clinton, the Obama coalition ultimately did not show up for her the way it did in 2008 and 2012.
Let`s take Trump`s surprise showings in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. He won rural and small town Michigan with 57 percent of the vote, compared to 53 percent for Mitt Romney. That`s an uptick. In Wisconsin, he won rural and small towns with 63 percent, 10 points higher than Romney. In Pennsylvania, he won 71 percent of the vote in rural and small towns -- 71 percent -- 12 points better than Romney.
But Hillary Clinton did 5 points worse than Obama with African-Americans, 6 points worse with Latinos, 5 points worse with millennials. They didn`t get as excited as they did for Obama. Clinton`s performance in small town America led to defeats in states we never saw coming.
So what are the Democrats doing wrong? What did they do wrong now?
John Brabender ought to know. He`s a Republican strategist. Steve McMahon`s a Democratic strategist. Gentlemen, I respect both of you. So I want to take -- ask John Brabender to open up with the question and -- the answer to the question I keep having. Why is there a silent majority for Donald Trump that didn`t get picked up by pollsters? What`s the disconnect?
JOHN BRABENDER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I think there were two different groups that were a little bit separate from one another. First of all, in states like Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, you had a lot of blue collar Democrats, many of them who were union members, who were going to vote for Donald Trump. But believe me, they`re not answering the phone and telling people publicly they`re voting for Donald Trump.
The second thing is Donald Trump was made toxic to a lot of college- educated moderate women who are not going to publicly go out and say, I`m voting for Donald Trump. But in the day -- Donald Trump didn`t win among them, but he didn`t lose by the margins everybody thought.
The third wild card, quite frankly, was what we call Walmart moms, is non- college-educated women overwhelmingly voted for Donald Trump in these states.
MATTHEWS: And was that the case? And why -- again, they weren`t going to talk to pollsters. What is it about the pollsters? Do they see the pollsters as the media, as the establishment, as Ivy Leaguers? What is it about them that makes them think that they can put a lawn sign up, but they`re not going to tell somebody who they`re voting for on the phone?
BRABENDER: Well, one of the things we started to go through is start to ask people, You may not be voting for Donald Trump, but do you think your neighbor is more likely to vote for them? And we were finding the answer was, Absolutely, I think my neighbor might be there.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
BRABENDER: And the truth of the matter is, these people do not trust pollsters. Plus, quite frankly, a lot of the media made it toxic to say that you were voting for Donald Trump.
MATTHEWS: Yes, I agree with that. Let me go -- let me go to Steve. Steve, give me your thoughts about this because I`m still having a hard time getting myself used to standing on this earth right now.
STEVE MCMAHON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yes.
MATTHEWS: This is a different earth today than it was 24 hours ago. It`s a different place. It just is different.
The people I was in the room with there at the Hillary hotel tonight -- I thought it was interesting they downgraded the hotel for the concession speech. They went away from a fancy hotel to another one -- was profound unhappiness, which I love in politics because it shows true commitment, and a loss of something they all counted on as reality.
They thought the reality was that Hillary Clinton was going to start dispensing patronage starting this morning. And there were ambassadorships people paid heavily for -- that`s how it works -- and all these positions of authority and prestige were all going to be dished out by her. Instead, she came in said, I don`t -- basically, I don`t even have a job. It was so profoundly different than anybody expected.
MCMAHON: Yes, it was very profoundly different. I actually am a little more -- a little less cynical. I think a lot of those people are crestfallen and depressed...
MATTHEWS: Oh, I know those are there, too. I know.
MCMAHON: ... because -- because they today read that Mitch McConnell is going to repeal "Obama care" very quickly and the House is going to do it, because they know that the Supreme Court now is going to be filled by somebody more in the -- like an Anthony Scalia or Antonin Scalia than someone like a Merrick Garland. And they know the next two or three Supreme Court picks will set the direction for the country for many, many years.
So I think there is a little bit of disappointment because there were a lot of people who were a lot of people who were planning their role in the administration, but I think, really, it`s -- what`s sinking in for Democrats is everything that Barack Obama did for the last four years or eight years is going to be largely undone, to the extent that Republicans can undo it.
And they know that the next two or three Supreme Court picks will set the direction for the country for many, many years.
So, I think there is a little bit of disappointment because there were a lot of people who were planning their -- their role in the administration. But I think, really, it`s -- what`s sinking in for Democrats is, everything that Barack Obama did for the last four years or eight years is going to be largely undone to the extent the Republicans can undo it.
And that`s going the start right now. And 20 million people are probably going to lose their health care coverage because the Republicans are going to repeal it without having anything to replace it with.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
MCMAHON: And the people who need it the most are going to be the ones who end up holding the bag again.
And a lot of those people, by the way, voted for Donald Trump.
MATTHEWS: Well, let`s go over to those people.
Let me go to John. And then I will come back to you, Steve.
I talked about this the other night, that a lot of people like Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who was a bit of a visionary, we all agree, back when Bobby Kennedy was killed, he said -- he wrote a letter to Ted Kennedy that he never actually mailed where he said, we`re giving up -- we`re losing the people that were always Democrats, the working-class Irish, Italian, Polish, whatever.
They are working-class people who had been for Roosevelt going back to FDR and certainly back to Jack Kennedy. And we`re losing them, and they should be our people. They should be our people.
And then I watched this thing the other night on "Saturday Night Live" where the working guy played by and Trump guy played by Tom Hanks was giving all the same answers on a show called -- a joke show called "Black Jeopardy" as the African-Americans were giving.
Why can`t the Democrats hold together a coalition of black, white and brown on economic issues for working people? Why have they lost the ability to hold them all together? What happens?
BRABENDER: Well, first of all, I don`t -- I think the mistake is to say it`s Democrats. I think it`s Democrats and Republicans.
I think this is a group that feels like the American dream of, you follow the rules, work hard, you can get ahead has been stolen from them. And I think they blame Democrats and Republicans for leaving them on the economic playing field.
And I think this also played into the argument that Hillary Clinton learned how to play the system and take advantage of it, where they don`t have that option. And I think that created a resentment that scored points for Donald Trump, quite frankly.
MATTHEWS: What do you think of that, Steve?
MCMAHON: No, I think John is absolutely right.
I think there is a cultural and elitism that sort of exudes from the establishment that the middle class and working folks just resent. And, you know, Hillary Clinton has for a long time been part of Washington. And, as John points out, to many of those people, she is somebody who learned how to play the game, played it quite well.
And she was always at a disadvantage because it was third term, you know, that she was seeking effectively for the Obama administration. She had been around for a long time. She had been beaten up for a long time. This was always going be tough. She ran, I think, a great campaign.
But there`s no question, Chris, that those people who felt like they were left behind were lashing out at Washington. And she was more Washington than Donald Trump was. And that`s why he won.
MATTHEWS: I`m just wondering, guys -- I will go back to John and then back to you -- when they see -- here is something that they all do, the politicians. And the Democrats have more progressives, liberals in the Hollywood community and the show business world.
So, they all show with Jay-Z or somebody. They will show up with Carole King or somebody I like, for example, a Barbra Streisand. I wonder when those -- except for Bruce Springsteen, who represents regular people. I just wonder when these get-togethers publicly with Cher and the others, if they don`t hurt the Democrats, because it looks like -- and there is nothing evil about it.
It just looks like the winners circle. Like, aren`t we all winners together? And then most people say, well, nice party, but I wasn`t invited.
Your thoughts, John?
BRABENDER: Well, without a doubt.
And I will give you an example. They put out a video this week -- this year, rather, out of Hollywood called famous Hollywood actors, where they came and said, save the day. We`re telling you, as famous Hollywood actors, you got to vote for them -- for Hillary Clinton.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
BRABENDER: And I put a parody of that out. It had 14 million views in less than two weeks, making fun of these Hollywood actors, because people find that slightly offensive.
It`s not that they dislike the actors. It`s just that they find the whole process of feeling like they`re going to be told something is wrong. And that, I think, paid a price for Hillary with all the events she did at the end.
MATTHEWS: I was thinking of what happened in Massachusetts years ago -- or not years -- many years ago. Remember Scott Brown won that upset...
MCMAHON: Yes.
MATTHEWS: ... against...
MCMAHON: Yes.
MATTHEWS: It`s just like he was coming out against the wine and cheese liberals of Boston.
And he put a truck out there. He rode around in a truck. And all he had to do this, this guy, this middle-class lawyer, possibly upper-middle- class, right, with a wife who is an anchorwoman or whatever -- all he had to do was drive around in this truck, and it sent a message that got him elected in an upset election there.
Your thoughts.
MCMAHON: Yes.
Populism used to actually belong to the Democratic Party. And it was almost always a Democrat who was a populist.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
MCMAHON: I think Donald Trump figured that out.
And the same people who went out in the primaries and cast their votes for Bernie Sanders, because Bernie Sanders had a message that appealed to the forgotten and left-behind American who was wondering what happened to their government and what happened to Washington, a lot of those Democrats who voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary went out in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania and in Michigan and they voted for Donald Trump, because Donald Trump represents somebody who was emotional and not rational and intellectual, and because he actually felt what they`re feeling, or at least he conveyed what they`re feeling in a more kind of empathetic and authentic way.
(CROSSTALK)
MCMAHON: And I happen to think that the policies he pursues are not going to be those that those voters are going to agree with, but we will see.
MATTHEWS: Scale of one to 10, what are the chance Trump will be a successful president?
Steve first. One to 10.
MCMAHON: Well, if he becomes a deal-maker and he goes the middle, he has got a much better chance of being successful and getting reelected than if he`s...
MATTHEWS: Give me a number.
MCMAHON: I would say four, five.
MATTHEWS: OK.
John Brabender, what are the chances of Trump being a surprise success, and I mean a surprise to a lot of people, successful president, the way Reagan was a surprise to a lot of people? Your thoughts?
BRABENDER: I think probably a seven or eight, because I think people are going to find out very quickly, like they did last night, Donald Trump the president is going to be a lot different than Donald Trump the candidate.
MATTHEWS: Thank you. That`s a prayer.
MCMAHON: That is a prayer. That is a prayer.
MATTHEWS: That is a prayer for all of us, because I did think last night he was right on the mark with everybody worried about the 800 drop on the Dow futures I never even heard of before, Dow futures, let alone -- and then today we`re up about 300 points in the real Dow. That was a nice speech that could do that.
Anyway, thank you, John Brabender. And, thank you, Steve McMahon.
MCMAHON: Thank you.
MATTHEWS: It`s great having you on.
Up next: President Obama vows to work to ensure a smooth transition. But what happens now to his legacy? By the way, he has got things at risk right now.
And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Don`t get cynical. Don`t ever think you can`t make a difference. As Secretary Clinton said this morning, fighting for what is right is worth it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
That was President Obama`s message today to those who were, put it this way, disheartened by Hillary Clinton`s defeat last night. But it wasn`t just Clinton who was on the ballot yesterday.
As the president told the Congressional Black Caucus this September, he saw the election as a referendum on him, as well as imploring voters not to insult his legacy.
Let`s watch that one. He was very tough here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Yes, I will consider it a personal insult, an insult to my legacy, if this community lets down its guard and fails to activate itself in this election.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: You want to give me a good send-off? Go vote!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Now, with the election of Donald Trump, many of the president`s key achievements over the past eight years are in jeopardy, you might say.
They include the Affordable Care Act, the Iran nuclear deal, the Paris climate deal, DACA, that helps people here who come to the country without papers stay here, Dodd-Frank, and our renewed relationship with Cuba.
Obama`s pending agenda items like the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the confirmation of -- the judicial confirmation of Merrick Garland, and the closing of Guantanamo base are now unlikely come to pass.
I`m joined right now by Andrew Sullivan of "New York Magazine."
You said he was going to win. He did. Now what?
ANDREW SULLIVAN, "NEW YORK MAGAZINE": Well, now we see what Donald Trump really is.
The way you have been presenting it, it seems that if some people think Donald Trump is a totally new person, that he can just create a tabula rasa, nothing he said in the campaign matters, he is just going to be this leader, this great leader of a mass movement.
But I think that`s very hard to do. He has been so explicit about so many of these promises, that the bottom line is going to be, how does he pull that off without alienating either the rest of Washington or his base, actually?
MATTHEWS: OK. We`re going to have to take a break right now. We will be right back. Let`s go to commercial right now.
We will be right back in a moment or two, OK?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: We`re back with Andrew Sullivan of "New York Magazine."
And he`s also joined right now by -- we`re joined by April Ryan, my friend, the White House correspondent for American Urban Radio Networks.
Andrew, I just wanted you to finish the thought there, because I think you -- when you predicted -- and you did rather profoundly -- that Trump was going to win, against all the predictions, it was out of concern.
Do you think Trump is the guy he advertised him to be in the primaries and in the general election, with all the terrible talk about Islamic people, about Mexican-Americans, the whole thing? Do you think he is that person, or he is an opportunist who will now adjust to being or try to be a successful president?
SULLIVAN: I -- I think he is that person. I think, when you watch someone for a year, you see what motivates them. You see what gets them angry, what gets them impassioned.
The thing that fueled his entire campaign, the bond he has with his supporters, which is near total, is around these core issues...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
SULLIVAN: ... of immigration, of trade, of deportation, and, indeed, of a belligerent foreign policy that will break up NATO and the postwar order.
He can now, Chris, do anything he wants. He has all of this town in his thrall. There is no...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Well, why do you say that, given the Constitution and the fact that a minority in the Congress has a tremendous power of the filibuster to deny any measure passing the United States Senate without 60 votes? That means nine Democrats have to join him.
SULLIVAN: They will get rid of the filibuster.
He has won this election himself. He has no one to owe. He has nothing to owe anybody.
MATTHEWS: OK.
SULLIVAN: They`re all in his thrall.
MATTHEWS: Well, I`m out of the prediction business.
SULLIVAN: If they oppose him, they will primary them.
MATTHEWS: Andrew, I`m out of the prediction business. I`m going to just step back. Some of my colleagues don`t know we were wrong. It`s time to stop being wrong.
Let me go to April on this.
April, do you think he is a showman who knew which buttons to push, or is he truly a man who some people think is on the tinge of fascist policies, fascist behavior?
APRIL RYAN, AMERICAN URBAN RADIO NETWORKS: I think both.
Chris, I think he is a person who knew exactly what buttons push. I said early on he reminded me of a Baptist minister who knows how to rouse the crowd with certain words. And he played on that. And the thing of it is, he won on that.
But I understand also at the same time that he may not say some of the same things when he is president of the United States. Some of that stuff was to get him to the point where he was. But now, when you talk about fascism -- fascism -- I can`t even say it right now. I`m sleepy, hour-and-a-half sleep.
MATTHEWS: We all are.
RYAN: Yes, I know.
But here is the issue. Donald Trump is going into an era of Trumpism and something we have never seen, he has never seen himself. He is going to learn the ropes. But he is also going to try to do it his way. So, we have to watch and see what he does. And what he does remains to be seen. That`s all we can say right now.
MATTHEWS: OK. Let me go back to Andrew, and I will be back to you in a minute.
I want to know about the things that people care about, a lot of the discussion on both sides, including of a brother of mine, very concerned about Obamacare, wanting to keep it.
Do you think he is going to really do -- eliminate the only federal program for people on health care -- for health care to give them a break, some subsidies, an opportunity to get a decent health care plan for their families? Is he going to just rip that away and leave us with nothing again?
SULLIVAN: Yes. Why not? That`s what he promised to do. That`s what he will do.
He has never figured out what he is going to replace it with. So, I`m also going to have my health insurance taken away from me.
MATTHEWS: Well, what is the middle class going to do? What are people that are struggling -- these bills are unbelievable. The medicine prices are beyond imagination.
SULLIVAN: He doesn`t care.
MATTHEWS: Until you get to Medicare age, you`re paying an unbelievable amount of money for medicine.
SULLIVAN: He doesn`t care.
MATTHEWS: Well, the voters do.
SULLIVAN: He wants to abolish Obamacare partly because he wants to eviscerate and erase the entire memory of Barack Obama from the history of the United States.
MATTHEWS: OK.
SULLIVAN: That`s what built this movement. That`s what motivated him. He wants to get rid of it. He has no idea what to replace it with.
MATTHEWS: OK.
SULLIVAN: And I think that is delusional in thinking that he is going to back off.
MATTHEWS: OK, let`s talk about something else with April, Iranian arms deal.
Whatever you talk about the imperfections of that deal with Iran, it`s the only constraint on Iran not to go nuclear.
RYAN: Right.
MATTHEWS: So, my question, is he going rip that apart and leave us with a wide-open door for immediate nuclear production on the part of the Iranians?
RYAN: Well, you know, the Iranian deal and the Iranians leave a very bad taste in this president-elect`s mouth. He was very upset about the money issue.
MATTHEWS: Oh, yes.
RYAN: And he never let that go.
So, that whole thing, even if the deal was to basically stop any kind of nuclear weapon, nuclear arsenal, what have you, that is, I guess you would say trumped, by the fact of the money. So, we have to see once again what he will do.
But I would think that cooler heads prevail. Right now, I`m hearing from people who are inside, some of the people who are being possibly vetted now to possibly go into his Cabinet. So, he`s got some people who have some kind of wherewithal to help him weed through these issues like the Iranian deal, trying to keep something going where...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
RYAN: ... we don`t have to worry about the fact that there could be some kind of nuclear weapon being made.
MATTHEWS: You know, Andrew, I don`t know where you are on Eisenhower, but there have been presidents who have come into office after dramatic social and political change and said you know what? I`m going to move on and I`m going to accept that.
Churchill came in the `50s after Attlee had been in with national health. He said, I`m not going to spend my second premiership destroying national health you. You don`t think Trump is that smart? You think he is going to go back in digging into what`s been done and taking it apart. That`s what he`s going to devote himself to?
SULLIVAN: He has to deport a bunch of young Latino kids. He`s got to. He`s committed to it. He`s got to deport up to 7 million to 8 million people. He`s got to build that wall.
MATTHEWS: Oh my God.
SULLIVAN: Or he is going to be known as someone who told people a bill of goods. He`s going to have to persuade and if he`s a con man.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: OK, let me just try to get past absurdity. He said he is going to get the Mexican government to pay for a wall to keep Mexicans in Mexico. That`s like asking to build the Berlin Wall. They`re not going to do it.
SULLIVAN: What I`m saying, what is -- the question is what happens to his base when it turns out he didn`t mean any of this?
MATTHEWS: Well --
SULLIVAN: What happens to the people who have supported him for these reasons when he turns around and says, oh, you know, forget about it. What happens? What happens when you build a movement like this around certain themes? You can`t then just turn around and say, never mind.
MATTHEWS: April, the last word.
RYAN: There will be an extra level of anger, more than we have now. The bottom line is you still have issues of immigration on the table. That is something that this president was not able to do in eight years.
He is going to try to figure it out. And he may not build that wall. And Mexico definitely will not make it. But, again, what I`m hearing, some of the things, some of the rhetoric he said on the road may not actually come into being. He may do something, but it may not be necessarily be build a wall with a pretty door and make Mexico pay for it.
MATTHEWS: Yes. Just remember, Franklin Roosevelt ran in `32 when we were desperate in the depths of the Great Depression, saying my solution to the Great Depression is I`m going to reduce the number of federal employees and reduce the size of government. Reduce the deficits. Roosevelt did the absolute opposite and it worked.
Anyway, because he really was promising to deal with the depression.
Anyway, April Ryan, thank you. Andrew Sullivan, relax a little bit at least if you can.
Up next, what are the chances this country can come together after this bitter election campaign? And what can Trump do now to bridge the divide? I think he wants to. He said he wanted to last night. I don`t know. I think he wants to be a success. We`ll see.
You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Donald Trump heard a voice out in this country that no one else heard. He connected with -- he connected in ways with people no one else did. He turned politics on its head. And now, Donald Trump will lead a unified Republican government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, there is a guy that has gotten used to the new reality faster than anybody I`ve known.
Anyway, welcome back to HARDBALL.
That was Speaker of the House Paul Ryan addressing the press for the first time since the election last night of Donald Trump. With complete Republican control now, members of both House and the Senate, they seem to be falling in line rather quickly. They always say Republicans fall in line. Democrats fall in love.
Well, the Democratic Party is left, however, to pick up the pieces for that party. "The Atlantic" openly wondered if the Democratic Party has a future, adding, "Just days after its death was foretold, the Republican Party is radically changed but holds great power, while the Democratic Party is one on life support." Well, I don`t know if I agree with that.
So, what do the next few day, months, and years look like for both parties in the wake of this earth-shattering election?
For more, I`m joined by Caitlin Huey-Burns, reporter with RealClearPolitics, Jamil smith, senior correspondent for MTV News, and McKay Coppins, senior writer for "BuzzFeed News".
So, I`ll start with the lady, Caitlyn.
It is the toughest question of the night. Give me a picture of how Trump is going to govern. What is the government going to look like with the Republican Party, mainly some Democrats maybe? The media? How does he put together something that can actually get something done? Well, you know, if you don`t get it done in the first half year, you don`t get it done.
CAITLIN HUEY-BURNS, REAL CLEAR POLITICS: Well, I think we`ll have an indication in the next couple of weeks and months about how he chooses for his cabinet. If he reaches out beyond his core base of supporters who have been with him the whole entire time, makes overtures within the party and perhaps beyond it.
MATTHEWS: Beyond the three musketeers of him, Newt, (INAUDIBLE) beyond that?
HUEY-BURNS: Right, that`s beyond the immediate measure.
Going forward, though, remember in the Republican primary, people like Rubio, people like Cruz went after him because they said he wasn`t sufficiently conservative, that he represented more Democratic values and that a lot of the things he was proposing required a lot from government. So I think in some ways he might be able to build some kind of coalition using a Democratic --
MATTHEWS: I`m going to go with Jamil.
If he does that, if he goes ideologically, he goes with a tight fisted crowd that won`t spend any money, won`t do anything.
JAMIL SMITH, MTV NEWS: Right.
MATTHEWS: Then he is stuck being a conservative do nothing. If he does what you say, if he goes on the hard right -- doesn`t he have to find, well, I let you guys talk. I think he has to go to center and find some people that want to make this country great again.
SMITH: No, I agree he`ll do that after he undoes whatever he can of the Obama legacy with a signature. So he`ll try to do that first. But I think --
MATTHEWS: You mean like strike off Obamacare without replacing it?
SMITH: Yeah, that, definitely.
MATTHEWS: Big mistake.
SMITH: Oh, yes, it will be a huge mistake. But I think, you know, Paul Ryan, maybe, you know, hewing close to Trump still because he wants to replace it with his own program. So, we`ll see how that works out.
MATTHEWS: McKay?
MCKAY COPPINS, BUZZFEED: Here is what I say about Rubio and Cruz and all those people who were saying he wasn`t conservative enough, they shut up by the end of the election. Those people fell in line. And I don`t see any indication that they`re not going to stay in line with whatever big initiatives Donald Trump as president decides to push.
I mean, I don`t think he has to worry that much about his right flank. I think his right flank for the first six months to a year is going to be behind him. And I think that he`ll have an opportunity to move to the center.
MATTHEWS: OK. This will scare him, but I believe in it. All great demagogues have a period when they`re doing good things. That`s why they get to be demagogues. Huey Long down in Louisiana. Peron down in Argentina, Hitler.
They start off with these big building programs, right? They start -- and people look around and say jobs, we`re all working. The country is becoming modernized. It looks hip and we like this guy. Then, they turn bad.
Will Trump try to do that? Will he be a builder? He says he is going to be a builder. If he sits around and destroying stuff, I`m not sure he`s going to build his approval rating.
HUEY-BURNS: Well, that`s --
MATTHEWS: Getting rid of Obamacare is not going to raise his approval rating.
HUEY-BURNS: We have to remember that Donald Trump is coming into the presidency as the most unpopular person to take office. I mean, Hillary Clinton was going to be if she would have won, too. So, that`s an initial hurdle.
But I`m talking about him not being conservative enough, I`m talking about the idea that he does have an appeal to some Democrats. There is talk, of course, Nancy Pelosi mentioned this today, infrastructure projects and that sort of thing. If he can seize on that and build on that and try to talk about the American economy, the American worker and try to make the party about that.
MATTHEWS: What`s the American worker want? He wants a good salary to work 40 hours a week. He doesn`t want to die. He wants to make a good salary at a job he`s proud of, comes home sweaty, has a beer and says, "Look, what I did, I made a lot of money this week." That guy is a Reagan Democrat right now, he`s a Trump voter in many cases.
SMITH: I mean, Reagan Democrats are just Republicans nowadays. He wants a job that he comes home but also that`s stable, that`s going to be there, that`s going to not just be some six-week gig.
MATTHEWS: I agree.
SMITH: They want something that`s stable. If he launches the kind of infrastructure that he`s talking about and can pay for it, then maybe that actually will happen.
MATTHEWS: You know what I would do but I`ll never get to do it. I`d take that map with red and blue and connect it with a rail line system across United States. I`d reintegrate this country so it wasn`t fly-over country. The three quarters won`t be ignored by the people flying from New York to L.A. every week, because they couldn`t -- they`d have to take a train and to actually see there is a St. Louis, there really is a Cleveland, there really is a Kansas City.
Put this country together the way it was once united by guess who? The first Republican president, Lincoln. Put it together the way Lincoln did. It can be done.
Every country in the world that matters to us, go to Europe, you got TGV in France going 300 miles per hour, you don`t even know you`re moving. You got the Zurich trains going up and down the mountains, you don`t even know you`re doing it.
I was in Japan, you put a Coke on the table there and it doesn`t even rattle when you`re going 300 miles an hour. China the same.
Why are we riding around in these buckboards, this Amtrak joke? Why are we like that? Why is that?
COPPINS: Isn`t that the kind of -- that`s the kind of thing that Donald Trump is always -- he`s a builder. He takes pride in doing stuff like that.
MATTHEWS: This trash pile called Penn Station in New York. You arrive in New York not like a prince but like a rat. You climb yourself out of the basement.
COPPINS: Donald Trump is going to make Penn Station great again.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: LaGuardia, South Africa, they`ve got beautiful airports down there in Joburg. What do we got? LaGuardia.
Anyway, just talking the line. I know I sound like I had the answer, but the answer is jobs. I sound like the guy in -- Kevin Spacey, you know, America works but it works.
Let me ask you about the Democrats, all three, you start again.
SMITH: Yes.
MATTHEWS: Who is going to be the leader of the Democratic Party? Nancy, Chuck or Barack Obama, President Obama? Who is going to be the leader? Or Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders? Who is the leader of the party going into this year?
HUEY-BURNS: I think the biggest question coming out of this is what is the Democratic coalition that will show up in elections and participate, right? The Obama --
MATTHEWS: OK, answer the question.
HUEY-BURNS: Well, I think you were mentioning earlier that President Obama could use his post-presidency to campaign on his legacy and build up the party in a way that no other Democrats have been able to. Elizabeth Warren will play a certain role within the Senate as the person that keeps the --
(CROSSTALK)
COPPINS: Barack Obama -- I think Barack Obama is right now the leader of the Republican Party -- or the Democratic Party and will be going into -- he`s extremely popular and that matters. The country likes him.
MATTHEWS: Well, thank you. He`s leaving on a high.
Anyway, Caitlin Huey-Burns, thank you. And, Jamil Smith, my friend. And thank you, McKay Coppins. You`re in too many other shows. You stick here.
When we return, let me finish with my final election diary of this wild campaign.
You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Election Diary November 9th, 2016, the final entry.
The cosmos has shifted. We live in a different world from this time last night. We lived in a world of President Barack Obama and Michelle Obama and the Clintons, the once and future presidents. That was the world this time last evening.
Tonight, with the dark growing across the country, our chosen leader Donald Trump, self-described multibillionaire, showman and Republican. Well, let`s get our heads around this new world that is now around us.
Is it a world defined by what Trump promised to do on the stump or a composite, a compromise between his promises and the world he inherits? That to me is the critical question morally, politically, economically, journalistically.
He promised to build a wall along the Rio Grande. Is that going to be it? Or will he strike a deal with Marco Rubio, Lindsey Graham and Chuck Schumer that tightens on the real magnet for illegal immigration, the exploitation of cheap, vulnerable labor in this country? Will he take control of immigration the way that fits with the Constitution and reasonable compassion, even if it offends, even if it does offend his political opponents and those they stirred up against him?
He promised to ban people of the Islamic faith from entering the country. Really? How is he going to get 60 votes including nine Democratic senators to vote for that kind of law? Or is he going to take a more refined approach to betting people coming here from countries who do have dangerous terrorist groups in them.
He promised to kill Obamacare. The same question, how is he going to find nine Democrats plus all the Republicans in the Senate to do that? And if so, what kind of a substantive plan will he install? Will he really dump all the people now dependent on Obamacare unto the insurance market? There`s a plan for political suicide.
My bet is he knows it or will know it if he heads in that direction.
The greatness of our Constitution in this country is that it throws up walls against would-be dictators. It gives strength to the minority party which is the current predicament of the Democratic Party. And that strength takes the form of a threatened filibuster, the federal courts and, of course, public opinion.
History tells us there`s a mighty distance between the promises a candidate makes and his reality of ability once elected. And that distance could turn out to be this country`s constitutional life insurance. Perhaps the greatest leverage against an overreach in power is the need Trump will have to get Democrats and reasonable Republicans to help him do anything. Whether he knows it or not or knows it yet, to move the United States ship of state takes more than a one-man crew.
That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.
"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.
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