Hardball With Chris Matthews, Transcript 10/27/2016

Jamil Smith, Jeanne Zaino, Molly Ball, Evan McMullin

Date: October 27, 2016
Guest: Jamil Smith, Jeanne Zaino, Molly Ball, Evan McMullin

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Something about women.

Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews up in New York.

Who would you rather have in your corner if you`re a boxer, I guess,
Michelle Obama or Newt Gingrich? Well, with the first lady, with her, you
have her inspiring young people to vote with a call for moral clarity.
With the former speaker, you have him bashing a TV news anchor.

And today, Michelle Obama took the stage in North Carolina to campaign with
Hillary Clinton. In front of 11,000 people, she praised Clinton, the first
lady, took some jabs at Donald Trump, and made a case for American
greatness. Here she is.


MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY: She has more experience and exposure to the
presidency than any candidate in our lifetime, yes, more than Barack, more
than Bill. She is absolutely ready to be commander-in-chief on day one.
And yes, she happens to be a woman!


OBAMA: We want a president who takes this job seriously and has the
temperament and maturity to do it well because we want to go to sleep at
night knowing that our kids and our country are safe.

It`s a country where a girl like me from the south side of Chicago, whose
great-great grandfather was a slave, can go to the finest universities on
earth, a country where the daughter of an orphan can break that highest and
hardest glass ceiling and become president of the United States!



MATTHEWS: Talk about political ability. I`ve never seen it quite as good
as the first lady.

Anyway, earlier in the week, Newt Gingrich went to war with Fox News`s
Megyn Kelly. He was then congratulated for his performance by Donald
Trump. Let`s watch that performance.


MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS: If Trump is a sexual predator, that is…

predator! You can`t say that…

KELLY: OK, that`s your opinion. I`m not taking a position.

GINGRICH: You could not defend that statement!

KELLY: I am not taking (INAUDIBLE)

GINGRICH: No, I`m sick and tired of people like you using language that`s
inflammatory that`s not true! You want to go back through the tapes of
your show, recently? You are fascinated with sex, and you don`t care about
public policy!

KELLY: Me? Really?

GINGRICH: Well, that`s what I get out of watching you tonight!



DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Congratulations, Newt, on last
night. That was an amazing interview.


TRUMP: We don`t play games, Newt, right? We don`t play games.


MATTHEWS: Oh, yes? That was the latest example of a campaign that some
Republicans say is driving away women from the party. Don`t just limit it
to women.

Anyway, according to “The Washington Post” today, quote, “A growing number
of prominent Republican women are worried that as members of their male-
dominated party step up to defend Donald Trump against accusations of
sexual assault, they are causing a irreparable damage to the GOP`s
deteriorating relationship with female voters.”

“Ironically” – continuing with “The Post” – “Ironically, it is Trump`s
candidacy rather than Hillary Clinton`s that has brought sexism to the
forefront of political debate.”

Katie Packer – she was on the show recently – the deputy managing –
campaign manager for Mitt Romney`s 2012 campaign, told “The Washington
Post,” quote, “For next-generation professional women, the party`s going to
have to do something very, very drastic to change the course of where this
candidate has taken us.”

Well, how much damage is it? We`ve watched a lot of this and we`ve shown
you the exhibits on both sides. Joining me right now, Michael Steele, the
former chair of the Republican National Committee – he`s, of course, an
MSNBC political analyst – author Ron Reagan, also an MSNBC political
analyst, and Molly Ball, staff writer for “The Atlantic.”

Molly, I want to defer to the former chair of the Republican Party first.
I know it`s a women`s issue, but I`ve got to ask Michael.

This is the craziest, craziest juxtaposition! There you have the most dash
– I don`t know – I can`t – you`ve got to be careful how you say things -
- beautiful first lady, attractive, dynamite speaker, incredibly polished,
Ivy Leaguer in every possible good sense of that word, charming,
persuasive, a role model for everyone, male and female, of every

And then you have Newt Gingrich duking it out in this sideshow along the
gangway of some circus that they`re running against Megyn Kelly, who is one
of the most popular conservative anchors we`ve ever seen.

What is going on with your at least current – well, erstwhile political
party, at least?


MATTHEWS: I don`t know where you stand, but go ahead. Why are they such

that is actually outside of itself right now. It has no orienting
moorings. It`s not moored to any idea or any particular leader, in the
sense that you have the congressional leadership is going in one direction,
you have the political leadership going in another. And then you`ve got
the nominee of the party that really has not laid out a direction.

So you have this moment, this quintessential moment, where all the work
that the party has put in over the years to captivate the imaginations of
women, African-Americans, Hispanics – all that`s for naught. And it`s all
being lost not in a matter of years, but in a matter of weeks.

In the last few weeks, this sort of dumbing down of the political process
by party leaders and others has just been stunning. And the women of the
party in this hour saying, Enough. And in my view, it`s about time. I
want more of those voices to come out to send the clarion call that this
party is going to require a different leadership and a different direction
after this election.

MATTHEWS: Molly, I have a plan for you to get into the front pages of the
newspapers, whether you want it or not. Just get within four feet of
Donald Trump!


MATTHEWS: Did you see Dana Bash the other day? I mean, he called her
insulting because she asked him about why he was taking time from the
campaign to go open up a hotel. I mean, it was a fair question. Of
course, it was a little bit provocative, but that`s the idea of these
questions, you provoke the candidate. And he was provoked.

Anyway, your thoughts?

MOLLY BALL, “THE ATLANTIC”: Look, I don`t speak for all women, obviously,
but the women who are pronouncing themselves divorced from the Republican
Party, prominent women, women who are Republican political professionals –
they`re not doing this because they disagree with Republican positions.
They would very much like there to be a conservative party that women can
be a part of…


BALL: … a party that is pro-life, a party that`s for small government.
They are not becoming liberals, right? If they`re voting for the Democrat,
it`s because they feel they`ve been forced to by, as Chairman Steele was
saying, a Republican Party that has signaled it doesn`t want to respect
women as human beings.

And so it`s a tough decision for a lot of these women, and I think there is
potentially long-term damage without new leadership. That being said, I
think there are a lot of conservative women out there who would respond
very positively to a future Republican candidate who was able to make more
polite overtures.

MATTHEWS: What happened to the Republican Party that looked up to – and I
mean really looked up to – Margaret Thatcher? Big-time. She was the role
model for what a conservative woman would be. And now it`s a party that
seems to be – I don`t want to say because it just gets you in trouble
saying what you think of what`s going on.

Let me go to Ron on this, who has some experience with that history. I
mean, your father`s best friend in politics was this very strong leader,
leader of men and women, not somebody to be treated the way anybody should
be treated. But now you see these side fights.

I mean, why is Newt Gingrich fighting with Megyn Kelly? Just move on!
Dust it off. Say something.

RON REAGAN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, let me make one point first,
and that is that we tend to characterize these issues of sexual harassment,
and sexual assault, in this case, as women`s issues.

They`re not women`s issues. If anything, they`re men`s issues. Men are
the ones, generally speaking, doing these – the harassing and the
assaulting. But they`re human issues.

Now, as far as Newt Gingrich goes, really, could you ask for a worse person
to be discussing issues like this? This guy`s been married three times,
cheated on his first two wives, told one of his wives that she had a
choice, a divorce or an open marriage, was impeaching Bill Clinton for
having a consensual affair while having an affair himself!

And then, worse than that, really, conflates the two issues of sexual
harassment, sexual assault, and sex, which is a mistake you see Republicans
making all the time when they discuss this.


REAGAN: This, to them, is somehow sex. When you grab a woman`s genitals
against her will, you`re having sex, as far as Newt is concerned.

MATTHEWS: We`re getting into that world now of conversation Mr. Trump has
dragged us into.


MATTHEWS: Well, anyway, Trump`s comments about women has caused trouble
throughout the campaign. He`s attacked Hillary Clinton`s look and her
stamina, which I`ve never heard that gone after, gone after the weight of a
beauty queen, mocked the looks of women who have accused him of misconduct
and attacked female journalists asking him questions, as I said.

Well, let`s look at a little run-through here, a little reminder, a recap.
Let`s watch.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: She doesn`t have the look. She
doesn`t have the stamina.

Such a nasty woman.

She was the winner, and you know, she gained a massive amount of weight,
and it was – it was a real problem.

Take a look. You take a look, look at her, look at her words. You tell me
what you think. I don`t think so! I don`t think so.

I don`t have a lot of respect for Megyn Kelly. She`s a lightweight. She
starts asking me all sorts of ridiculous questions, and you know, you could
see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her

For you to ask me that question is actually very insulting because Hillary
Clinton does one stop and then she goes home and sleeps. I think it`s a
very rude question, to be honest with you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump said the following about you. Quote,
“Look at that face. Would anyone vote for that? Can you imagine that the
face of our next president?”

CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think women all over this
country heard very clearly what Mr. Trump said.


TRUMP: I think she`s got a beautiful face, and I think she`s a beautiful


MATTHEWS: Good for Carly Fiorina. She nailed that one.

Anyway, Trump went after Hillary Clinton`s stamina again today. He seemed
to imply that Hillary Clinton was so tired after their second debate, she
almost collapsed. Let`s watch this argument.


TRUMP: She`s definitely a low-energy person. I said, Where is Hillary? I
watched after the last debate and after the second debate. She was tired!
Wow! She walked off that stage – of course, she had a lot of people
around. They had a lot of people around her, which was smart.


MATTHEWS: So Michael, just to project what he`s trying to say there
because it`s not hard, in other words, she had a cadre of people around
here, corner people, to hold her up…

STEELE: Right.

MATTHEWS: … so that she wouldn`t fall to the ground after he was
finished with her!


MATTHEWS: I mean, everybody saw her on television. It`s like the old
Groucho Marx, You going to believe me or your lying eyes.

STEELE: Right.

MATTHEWS: We all saw her do very well in the stamina department in all
three debates. It`s not questionable that she was weak.

STEELE: Well, I think the reality for Trump is that Hillary Clinton has
very effectively batted back all of that…


STEELE: … and pushed back on it very, very clearly and effectively and
done so in a way in which she showed, actually, in my view, him to be the
weaker of the two of them.


STEELE: And that`s what`s been so profoundly stark for me in the last few
weeks of this, is just how utterly Donald Trump`s campaign has moved into a
space – it`s not where no campaign has ever gone before. It is a space
that doesn`t exist in politics. And you`re seeing the results of that.
Women, African-Americans, other groups are just saying, Enough.

And I don`t know how you translate that into votes in 12 days. I don`t
know if there`s a hidden vote. They`re now acknowledging that there isn`t
this hidden Trump vote, after all. But this thing is pretty much damn near
toast. And it`s largely not because of anything Hillary Clinton`s done or
the Democrats have done, it is what this party and this nominee has done to

MATTHEWS: Yes, I think a good part of it is Hillary`s restraint, too, I
think. Molly, I want to talk to you about Hillary, but I want to get to
the larger question we tried to raise here.

Looking down the road the next – - we don`t know foreign politics, the
next four, eight years, of women who are aspiring, any woman, a woman who
may have missed her generational chance because there weren`t the
opportunities there is today back in her day, those women in 60s and 70-
year-old and even older, looking back and say, You know what? A young
woman like my granddaughter`s trying to make it today. This guy`s not her

That kind of personal reaction, what do you think it`s going to do to the
GOP, the Republicans, when this is over in two weeks?

BALL: Well, I want to go back, actually, to what Ron was saying about men
and about human beings because I think that`s really important. What I
think is really interesting is, you know, Donald Trump is running an “us
versus them” campaign. And the calculation was, Sure, we might, you know,
anger America`s women, but men will flock to this macho appeal. Men will
flock to this idea of sort of dominance and machismo and old school, you
know, male entitlement.

And that actually isn`t happening. That`s what`s so interesting…


BALL: … is that according to a lot of polls, Donald Trump is doing worse
with men than Mitt Romney did. So even men don`t agree with this sort of
polarization by gender. And I think that that…

MATTHEWS: And their daughters, too.


MATTHEWS: … sisters or daughters, mothers, you know?

BALL: Or they just think women are people.



BALL: And they`re voting on that basis, in the same way that, you know…

REAGAN: Makes me feel better about my gender.

BALL: … he`s doing worse with white people than Mitt Romney did. So it
turns out that just by alienating African-Americans, you don`t win over a
lot of whites who wanted to hear that. And so, you know, we have an
America that is saying, We don`t want to be polarized along these lines.
We don`t want to be divided along these lines. Even if they don`t agree
with Hillary Clinton, they`ve been put off by…


MATTHEWS: Ron, get in here because I think – I mean, you may have been
ahead of all of us, but – Ron, because I know you, but I think evolution
is really true. I believe in evolution. I think men have evolved.


MATTHEWS: … evolved, you know? And I think – I think maybe Trump
hasn`t. But I think most men have tried to adjust to their daughters`
aspirations. They`re trying to be equal…


MATTHEWS: … with their kids.


MATTHEWS: … young boys have better a opportunity than the young girls.
I mean, they want to – they want to be fair, even now (ph).

REAGAN: There is hope for men, after all. I mean, I`m glad that…


REAGAN: … share that information with us.

But you know, there`s so many – for instance, the third debate. Think of
the third debate when Chris Wallace got around to asking about abortion.
How did he characterize it? Late-term abortions and partial-birth


REAGAN: There`s no such thing as partial-birth abortion. Doesn`t exist.
1.3 percent of abortions take place in the third trimester, almost all of
them because there is a serious health problem for the mother or the child
or both.

And that`s the reality of that, and yet nobody, even Hillary Clinton, did
not correct Chris Wallace when he said that.

MATTHEWS: I think – they`re not picking hair color.

Anyway, thank you, Michael Steele – not to be too crude about it. Molly,
you`re great. Thank you so much, and Ron Reagan. And Michael Steele, you
got a rough job these days!



MATTHEWS: At least you`re not Reince Priebus these days!


STEELE: and Chris, it`s working out just like we planned it.



MATTHEWS: Let`s move the Priebus question.

Anyway, coming up – that`s a little pun. Coming up – inside Bill
Clinton, Incorporated. The latest hacked memo from Wikileaks reveal just
how intertwined the Clinton Foundation was to former president Bill
Clinton`s money-making ventures. And while the new revelations don`t
mention Secretary Clinton, she`s facing new questions on the campaign trail

Plus, Donald Trump`s at real risk of losing a deep red state that
Republicans haven`t lost since 1964, Utah. That`s because independent
candidate Evan McMullin is making a strong push in a state where he has
roots, and he`s with us tonight.

And new fears tonight that election day won`t be the end of the partisan
rancor in this country but a new beginning of it. There`s been plenty of
talk among Trump supporters of revolution. Who knows that means or what it
can start if he loses. And there`s new polling that shows fears of that
might come true.

Anyway, finally, my “election diary” for tonight, October 27th.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: New battleground state polls. Let`s check the HARDBALL

Let`s start in Georgia. A new Quinnipiac poll shows Hillary Clinton and
Donald Trump neck and neck there. It`s Trump 44, Clinton 43, a 1-point
race. The poll had Trump up last month by 7.

Next to Iowa, Clinton 44, Trump 44, same number. Trump led by 7 in the
Quinnipiac poll last month there. North Carolina, Quinnipiac`s poll shows
Clinton with a 4-point lead. That`s down. It`s Clinton 47-43. Clinton`s
lead was – well, it was 3 a month ago. Other polls have shown her way
ahead in North Carolina.

Next to Pennsylvania, where a “New York Times”/Siena poll shows Clinton
with a 7-point lead over Trump. It`s Clinton 46, Trump 29. The
RealClearPolitics average in Pennsylvania is up by 5. I think Clinton`s
going to win Pennsylvania. I think that`s the key.

Finally, to New Hampshire, a new poll from U. Mass. Amherst and WBZ has
Clinton up by 5. It`s Clinton 43, Trump 38. RealClearPolitics average has
Clinton up by 6.5, and he needs New Hampshire to win.

And we`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

A memo which was stolen from the e-mails of Clinton campaign chairman John
Podesta and made public by WikiLeaks yesterday raises new questions about
the convoluted relationship between the Clintons` charities and their
personal business.

It`s the latest in the ongoing release of illegally hacked e-mails, which
U.S. intelligence agencies say was perpetrated by the Russian government.

The memo in question was allegedly sent by Doug Band, former aid to Bill
Clinton, and a key figure behind the Clinton Foundation`s fund-raising, who
now runs a consulting firm called Teneo. It appears to show that while
Band raised money from his clients for the Clinton Foundation, he would
simultaneously press those same donors to offer business opportunities to
Bill Clinton.

According to the memo he wrote – quote – “Independent of our fund-raising
and decision-making activities of behalf of the foundation, we have
dedicated ourselves to helping the president secure and engage in for-
profit activities, including speeches, books, and advisory surface

Doug Band referred to his efforts as – quote – this is his quote – “Bill
Clinton, Incorporated, Bill Clinton, Inc.,” and he said the network of
deals he secured if they remained in place would pay the former president
$66 million over nine years.

These e-mails were exchanged after Chelsea Clinton raised concerns with
John Podesta that Doug Band was hustling business for Teneo and acting on
behalf of the former president.

An e-mail made public two weeks ago allegedly shows Band complaining about
Chelsea after Podesta`s raised her concerns with him – quote – this is
Band talking – “She`s acting like a spoiled brat kid who has nothing else
to do but create issues.”

Well, Clinton and Band eventually parted way, and the e-mails show that
stricter guidelines were enacted to separate personal business involving
the former president from his foundation. It should also be noted that, at
the time, Clinton and Doug Band were private citizens. The memo does not
mention Secretary Clinton by name, nor do the hacked e-mails show that she
traded any favors as secretary of state.

Well, the e-mails have not been independently authenticated by NBC News,
and the Clinton campaign has offered no authentication either.

I`m joined now by Beth Fouhy, senior political editor at MSNBC, as well as
Howard Fineman, who is global editorial director of The Huffington Post and
also an MSNBC political analyst.

Beth, let`s try to figure this out. If we say it`s not illegal, but
there`s an interesting sort of packaging going on. When you hear about
Hollywood, they – sort of packages. If you want Tom Hanks, you got to
take these other two people. You got to take the director – you want the
director, you have got to take – in the case of Doug Band, it seems like
if you want to get involved with the Clinton Global Initiative, OK, the
Clinton Foundation, can you get us some speeches for the former president?

And, by the way, can we borrow the airplane? I don`t know how it works,
but this is what it looks in these e-mails.

BETH FOUHY, SENIOR EDITOR, MSNBC.COM: Well, it does, but think about it.

Bill Clinton at the time was this incredibly popular ex-president.
Everybody wanted him. He`s apparently – we all know how charismatic he
is. But apparently he knows nothing about managing money, nothing about
managing his own time. He trusted Doug Band to do that work for him.

So, Doug Band, ingeniously, one might say, figured out how to make himself
rich, the former president rich, and enrich the Clinton Foundation, all at

MATTHEWS: So when people want to be grabbed for a generous contribution to
the Clinton Foundation, why should they be grabbed to give him a speech,
when he asked for a big chunk of money? Why are they all of a sudden fair
game to grab money from?

FOUHY: They probably wanted him. They probably wanted him. That`s the
crazy part to this.


MATTHEWS: So, you see nothing wrong with this? Are you…

FOUHY: I`m saying…

MATTHEWS: No, it sounds like you`re saying there`s nothing wrong with
this. Explain.

FOUHY: Look, it`s not for me to judge. It`s what the Clintons do.

MATTHEWS: It is. It is for you to judge.


FOUHY: They tend to run right up to the edge of what`s legal. And that`s
– that`s the problem that their critics have with them.


MATTHEWS: If you spend your life hitting the chalk line in tennis, just
right at the edge of what you can get away with, where you bring everybody
in, the contributors into the White House back in the `90s.


FOUHY: Yes, the Lincoln Bedroom, yes.

MATTHEWS: Rent out the – at some point, the problem is, you`re going to
look crooked to some people of different perspectives.

FOUHY: But this is important, Chris. He is not the candidate. Hillary
Clinton is the candidate. None of this implicates her.

MATTHEWS: Well, she was involved in this or not?

FOUHY: The last sort of dustup around this was when it appeared that she
had been visited with or been…


MATTHEWS: So she`s clean? I`m just asking. Is she clean?

FOUHY: Again, not for me to judge. She did not…

MATTHEWS: It is for you to judge.


FOUHY: She did not meet with people for the Clinton Foundation simply
because they were donors. They were people who had business before the
secretary of state`s office, like Bill Gates, like Melinda Gates. These
are people who legitimately have business before the secretary of state.
And they were also contributors to the foundation.

MATTHEWS: So how do you read – before I go to Howard, how do you read
this whole thing, this debate between, on one side, you have got John
Podesta and Chelsea Clinton challenging the way things are being done, and
on the other side defending them? That seems to be the way it`s going,

FOUHY: Well, you know, Chelsea Clinton, you know, looks like kind of the
hero here. She looks like the person who is stepping in there, making sure
her father`s name isn`t being taken advantage of by somebody who means
well, but perhaps is using that…

MATTHEWS: Well, she says he was hustling.

FOUHY: She says – she does seem to suggest that. And she stepped in to
make sure that that was not how things were going to continue. And, sure
enough, Doug Band left shortly after those memos were released.

MATTHEWS: Well, it looks like he didn`t have a choice.


MATTHEWS: Howard, how do you read this? Because it`s pretty much now in
the open.

The one thing great about opening up this – lifting up this rock is you
see the bug life under the rock. And you see about all this stuff that
never gets out publicly. I guess thanks to the Russkies and WikiLeaks, we
now get a view you normally don`t get of politicians in action.

been covering the Clintons since they were in Little Rock and when Bill
Clinton was governor of Arkansas, and through all of his presidential
campaigns and Hillary`s entire career.

Their whole life is built on the combination of public office and money.
And the Clintons didn`t have any money. They didn`t start out with any
money. They`re not like the Bush family or some other people. They didn`t
have much access to money.

FOUHY: Or the Trump family.

FINEMAN: Yes, or the Trump family.

And they`re down there in Little Rock, and they want to play on the
national stage. And it quickly becomes apparent to them that they have got
to get in on the money action, not so much, I think, because they`re
avaricious people in any sense. They`re not really in it to make money
exactly, but they want to be around – they will take the money, but they
want to be around the money in order to play in the ball game of politics
the way it exists.

MATTHEWS: Why did Hillary Clinton demand $250,000 to give an hour-long
speech, the same speech she gives over and over again? That`s not about
campaigning. That`s about personal income.

FINEMAN: No, it`s not about campaigning, but it`s about – maybe I`m being
too generous here, but it`s – they spent their whole lives trying to get
contributions from rich people.

They have immersed themselves in that, going back to renaissance weekend,
and that networking by the sea back in the `80s and `90s, the big donors,
the soft money donors. These are the people they spent their lives around.
They want to be like those people.

MATTHEWS: I think you`re so right on the note.

FINEMAN: They want to have money like those people. They want to be like
those people, because it`s demeaning to have to do that all the time.

So, they are going to be on that level. They`re going to get the cash for
themselves. More important, they`re going to get the cash for campaign
contributions, for PAC contributions, for the foundation that makes the
Clintons feel good, like they`re doing good in the world.

It`s like – it`s a continuously moving carousel of access and money, none
of it specifically illegal, but if you look at the totality of it, it looks
like they have spent their whole lives searching for cash, and using power
to get it, to get more money, to get more power, to get more money.

And they have not said that they`re going to shut down the Clinton
Foundation if Hillary becomes president. What they have said is, they will
no longer take any foreign donations. And, by the way, Chelsea Clinton
wasn`t complaining that Bill Clinton – about Bill Clinton looking bad for
getting cash for speeches. She was complaining that Doug Band was using
the foundation to get money for himself.


FINEMAN: It was not some principled objection to protect her dad from
looking bad. They wanted as much money as they could get.

I mean, two days after she was declaring her candidacy in Iowa, Hillary
Clinton wanted to give a speech to J.P. Morgan, until they told her, you
can`t do it.


MATTHEWS: You know what I think? I`m going to be more judgmental than
Beth, who`s a straight reporter. I will make a judgment.

Every time I have watched a politician engage in a certain pattern of
behavior before they go to the White House, they continue to engage in that
pattern afterwards. People don`t change because we swear them into the
White House. They become that person big-time. And the Clintons were
raising money like this hand over hand back in – hand over fist back in
1996 using we called it Motel 6.

They were bringing people, hoard them in, pulling them in by train loads of
contributors, and then letting them sit in the Lincoln Bedroom for a while,
then charging them by the hour.

This is what they did before. They is what they – you can still vote for
Hillary Clinton, but, remember, you`re getting this as part of the package,
because that`s been their pattern.

Beth Fouhy, thank you. You`re so nice to these people.

Anyway, Beth Fouhy, Howard Fineman, thank you.

Up next, the conservative candidate hoping to keep Donald Trump from
winning deep red Utah, Evan McMullin. He`s running for president in Utah.
Is he running anywhere else?

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.



your Republican neighbors and friends, this is not the time to make a
statement. This is our chance to make a difference.


PENCE: There`s only two names on that ballot that have a chance to be
president of the United States of America.

And while I will always respect the right of any man or woman to cast their
vote in the manner that may seem best, a vote for any candidate other than
Donald Trump, bottom line, is a vote to make Hillary Clinton the 45th
president of the United States.


PENCE: It`s a hard truth. So it`s time to come home.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was Donald Trump`s running mate, of course, Mike Pence, campaigning in
the deep red state of Utah, with less than two weeks to go until the

Pence pleaded with Republicans – you saw it there – to come home, as he
put it, and support the GOP ticket out of concern that Utah might not be as
safe as it used to be for the party. Utah hasn`t supported a Democrat for
president since 1964, when they went for Johnson over Goldwater.

But because of the entrance of independent candidate Evan McMullin, the
state`s suddenly in play. The latest poll shows a three-way race out there
among Trump, McMullin, and Hillary Clinton. One poll has Trump up three
points. Another has him up two points. But a third poll shows McMullin
leading Trump and Clinton by four. You see them all there.

Anyway, McMullin responded to Pence and Twitter after the Indiana governor
called on Utah supporters not to support his independent bid.

Here`s what McMullin tweeted: “A vote for Pence is a vote for Trump, and a
vote for Trump is a vote for religious bigotry, misogyny, and the expansion
of government.”

McMullin is a former intelligence officer in the Central Intelligence
Agency, investment banker at Goldman Sachs, and a senior staffer up on
Capitol Hill for House Republicans. He joins me now.

Evan, what do you think of if somebody votes for you and you carry the
electoral votes of Utah, what does that do to the race for president come
election night itself? What does that do?


EVAN MCMULLIN (I), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, if you believe the polls
– and I do believe the polls – Hillary Clinton has a massive lead in most
Electoral College projections. And so what happens here in Utah is not
likely to impact the out…

MATTHEWS: It stays in Utah?

MCMULLIN: What`s that?

MATTHEWS: It stays in Utah?

MCMULLIN: Well, for now, it does.

But we`re building a new conservative movement, because we think that`s
what`s required. You know, Mike Pence said that voters should come home to
Donald Trump, which I think is ridiculous, because conservative voters are
– can never be at home with Donald Trump.

Donald Trump has invited Vladimir Putin in to influence our elections and
undermine our elections and our democratic institutions. He`s attacked
people for their race and religion and their gender. This is not what real
conservatives stand for. And it`s not what principled conservatives in the
Mountain West and in Utah stand for.

So there`s no going home to Donald Trump for true conservatives.

MATTHEWS: What other state do you have a very good – a decent chance of
winning? You have got a good shot in Utah. We have looked at the numbers
there, those electoral votes. Where else can you win besides Utah?

MCMULLIN: Well, our best chances are in the Mountain West.


MATTHEWS: No, name a state, other state besides Utah you can win.

MCMULLIN: Idaho – Idaho and Wyoming are our best chances.

MATTHEWS: You believe you can carry Idaho? You believe you can win Idaho?


But, look, Chris, we have been transparent about this whole thing the whole
way through. I`m an independent candidate. I don`t have the support of a
party. We have a strong message and we`re running on that. We have
limited resources, so we have to choose very wisely about where we spend
them and our time.

And the reality is that we knew we would need to do that. And we focused
on the Mountain West, because that`s where Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump
were rejected.

MATTHEWS: I understand.

MCMULLIN: And we have gotten a lot of traction here in Utah. I was born
here. People are looking for somebody…


MATTHEWS: I`m with you on that. I know you have got the roots out there.
I know Utah politics.

Let me ask you about why LDS people, people who are members of the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, why they would like you – let me put
it this way, a tougher question. Why wouldn`t they like a guy of Trump`s
lifestyle? What is it about his personal behavior that turns off Mormon
people, generally speaking? What is it?

MCMULLIN: Well, look, I will say that Mormon people – and I can`t speak
for all of them either.

MATTHEWS: Well, just the ones you talk to.

MCMULLIN: That`s sort of silly.

MATTHEWS: The ones you talk to.

MCMULLIN: Yes, I think a lot of people, not just Mormons, Catholics,
evangelicals, Hindus, Jews, a lot of people expect their leaders to be
decent people, to care about Americans and to defend Americans, not attack

And so this is – these are the kinds of qualities they`re looking for in
our leaders, both here in the Mountain West and across the country. I
think Donald Trump`s indecency and the way he treats people, the way he
attacks people of different faiths, and, you know, based on their gender or
skin color, it just – it doesn`t sit well with people out here.

And they know that our leaders need to be uniting and respectful of


Not to be turned off by Donald Trump and disavowing the Republican nominee,
Utah Republican Congressman Jason Chaffetz is now back on board with Trump.
He tweeted just yesterday: “I will not defend or endorse Donald Trump, but
I am voting for him. HRC is that bad. HRC is bad for the USA.”

What did you think of that statement by a congressman who`s been around a
bit out there, who`s now going to vote for Trump?

MCMULLIN: Well, I`m really disappointed in Jason`s decision to do that.

Just a couple of weeks ago, he was saying that he couldn`t look his
daughter in the eye if he supported Donald Trump. And here he is, just two
weeks later, doing that very thing.

MATTHEWS: How about Orrin Hatch? How about Orrin Hatch? Isn`t he going
to be for Trump, the senior senator out there?

MCMULLIN: Well, Orrin Hatch is – Orrin Hatch has been for Trump. And,
unfortunately, he`s urged Utahans to – quote – “do the right thing ” and
support Donald Trump.

MATTHEWS: How about Mike Lee, the other senator?

MCMULLIN: Well, I don`t know about Mike Lee. I think he`s taken a stand
in some way against Trump.


MCMULLIN: But, look – well, he has. He tried. He was at the convention.

But, look, this is the thing. Our leaders need to take a stand for what
has made this country special, which is that all men and women are created
equal. That`s true for all humans. But it`s enshrined in our founding
documents, that all have inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness.

And if our leaders won`t stand up for those principles, we have to ask
ourselves, what are those leaders doing? And it`s just not enough to say I
oppose this or I oppose that candidate or idea. True leadership is
standing up and saying what you`re for and then fighting for that thing.

And that`s what I haven`t seen.

MATTHEWS: I think – you know, I think that`s nicely put.

But you know what I think`s going on?

MCMULLIN: What is that?

MATTHEWS: I believe that the LDS community in your state is appalled by
Trump`s public behavior, uniquely appalled.


MATTHEWS: No, uniquely appalled. They don`t like showing off, braggarts.
It`s not just the sexual misconduct. It`s the bragging. It`s the egotism,
all of that stuff about Trump.

I look at the guy and say, I worked with Mormons out there. My wife worked
with Mormons. We really get along and like the people. If you can
generalize, we like the people. And one thing we notice about them is
modesty and humility. This guy Trump is not your guy in Salt Lake Valley.

MCMULLIN: No, he`s not.

MATTHEWS: He`s just not your guy. And I think that`s what`s going on, why
you have a unique chance to upset the Electoral College and win the
electoral votes of Utah. I think that`s why you have a good chance. You
agree or not?

MCMULLIN: I hope so. I hope so. I think so. We`re fighting hard for
that, and we`re humbled by the support we have received so far.

MATTHEWS: And I have been saying this for a while, not just you, Evan.
But thank you for coming on. You`re making a big statement out there.

MCMULLIN: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Up next: We have been hearing from Trump supporters who are
calling for – this is a weird word in this country – revolution if
Hillary Clinton wins.

Well, now new polling shows Americans are really worried about the threat
of just that, maybe some violence? That`s ahead with the roundtable.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.



MICHELLE OBAMA, U.S. FIRST LADY: So, when you hear folks talking about a
global conspiracy and saying that this election is rigged, understand that
they are trying to get you to stay home. They are trying to convince you
that your vote doesn`t matter.


CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC ANCHOR: That was – the first lady is just
incredible out there on the stump. That was her, of course, smacking back,
or swatting back Donald Trump`s talk of rigged elections, but with a little
less than two weeks to go, it seems like some voters aren`t listening to
her, the first lady.

“The New York Times” reports that some of Donald Trump`s supporters are
warning, I can` believe this, of a revolution – I sound like Bernie
Sanders – if Hillary Clinton wins. “The New York Times” reports that some
worry that they will be forgotten along with their concerns and
frustrations. Others believe that the nation might be headed for violent

A new “USA Today”/Suffolk University poll released just yesterday shows
that 51 percent of likely voters, a majority, are either somewhat or very
concerned that there will be violence after the election. Four out of ten
of Trump`s own supporters say that if Clinton wins, she would be
legitimate, just 32. Sixty-eight percent say they`re worried that the
election results will be manipulated.

For more, I`m joined right now by the roundtable: Jamal Smith of MTV News,
Jeanne Zaino, who`s professor of political science and consultant with
Applied Technomics, and Nick Confessore of “The New York Times.”

All right. Jamal, let`s run through this thing.


MATTHEWS: Is there damage or danger in people yelling out these
revolutionary statements?

SMITH: Oh, my goodness with, yes. I mean, I think, you know, first of
all, it`s not like Bernie Sanders` revolution. This is Bernie Sanders`
revolution with guns, with people threatening actual violence, saying,
we`ve got to take her out. All this kind of rhetoric that we`ve seen is
absolutely dangerous and could actually, you know, not arise passions in
the wrong person.

MATTHEWS: Is he responsible?

SMITH: Yes, he`s responsible. He`s encouraged all of it and he`s done
nothing to stop it. He`s responsible.


JEANNE ZAINO, POLLSTER: I would go a little further. I think the
Republican Party has to take responsibility here and the Democrats, as
well, for losing sight of what`s going on in their base.

You know, there never would have been a Donald Trump if the Republican
Party had listened to its base much earlier on. Say, go back to George W.
Bush`s time with the birth of the Tea Party movement, then they were
incredibly frustrated that they elected a president who did anything but
what he promised to do. Lower the deficits, they got raised. Get us out
of foreign entanglements, we got into them. And you can go through the

So you lose sight of your base on the Republican side. And I would venture
to say the same thing has happened on the Democratic side. Now,
certainly, that doesn`t arise to issues of anger and violence in that
regard, but I think there`s a certain amount of responsibility to bear on
party leaders, who haven`t been listening to their base and responding to

MATTHEWS: I`ve been giving that speech for a while now. Thank you, I
agree completely with what you said.

NICK CONFESSORE, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I think people are so torqued up and
it`s really worrisome. I think on Election Day, there`s a real danger of
violence at ballot boxes, in shopping malls, at gas stations. We`ve
already seen –

MATTHEWS: Do you think gun play?

CONFESSORE: No, I`m just saying –

MATTHEWS: Anger, or what kind?

CONFESSORE: We`ll see. I hope nothing. But we have seen scattered
violence at Trump rallies, from supporters, and opponents –

MATTHEWS: Fistfights?

CONFESSORE: Fistfights. We`ve seen fights at shopping markets from Trump
supporters, people at gas stations getting into fights. You know, Trump
hats getting ripped off of people.

MATTHEWS: It`s pretty ugly.

Here`s a weird thing that could happen, if you look at the path. Suppose
you live in Scranton Wilkes-Barre, I`m looking at the numbers. Huge
support for Trump. So, everybody you know is for Trump it seems. If you
live in Philadelphia, everybody you know is for Hillary Clinton, right?

So you`re going to come out at an election booth and think, everybody in
this room has a Trump hat, so Trump`s going to win. Then you think,
there`s got to be cheating on. How is it that everybody I know is voting
for Trump, right, Jamil? That could be a phenomena where they say, it must
have been stolen, because everybody in Scranton voted for him.

SMITH: In all seriousness, though, I don`t have a whole lot of sympathy
for those folks, the same thing may have been true in `08 and 2012 when
Barack Obama won the election, a lot of those people probably voted for
John McCain and Mitt Romney. Look, I mean, at the end of the day, we have
to face what`s going on here, white supremacy dies hard. And this is what
the campaign has been pushing. It`s been pushing white nationalism.

MATTHEWS: Give me the words.

SMITH: As far as words, what, what do you mean?

MATTHEWS: How did they say white supremacy? I think they`ve been selling
nationalism. I wouldn`t call white supremacy.

SMITH: But what I`m saying, is policies that undergird white supremacy is
what I`m saying. So white supremacy is a concept –

MATTHEWS: Like what?

SMITH: Like, for instance, talking all this stuff about blacks – and
Black Lives Matter and police wanting basically to give police wanton
powers that they can just do anything with.

MATTHEWS: And Trump`s done that?

SMITH: National stop and frisk. That is white supremacy.

MATTHEWS: And Trump`s pushed that?

SMITH: Oh, yes.

ZAINO: You know, but I do think there`s another part of this. I agree
that the rhetoric has been horrible. But you know, you have to go deeper
than that. You have to look at levels of unemployment in some of these
communities, where these messages are selling.

You have to look at, I`m sorry, that the responsibility that the president
bears for his inability to address some of the really key issues that are
fueling some of this. I agree with you, the rhetoric is horrible. But you
also have to look at what is fueling this. People have a changing America,
which is changing before them, and they haven`t been able to address to
those changes –


CONFESSORE: Well, what`s fueling it is a nominee who is telling his
supporters that things are rigged that aren`t rigged. That polls are made
up that aren`t made up and he bears some responsibility.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, I look at this at a rally in Toledo, Donald Trump
suggested canceling the whole election. Maybe it`s making your point.
Let`s watch.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE : Hillary Clinton wants to raise
taxes on small businesses, up to 45 percent. What a difference. You know,
what a difference this is. And just thinking to myself right now, we
should just cancel the election and just give it to Trump, right? What are
we even – what are we having it? Her policies are so bad.


MATTHEWS: I guess we have elections for democracy.

Anyway, the roundtable is sticking with us. And up next, these three will
tell me something I don`t know.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Well, today I spoke with Ambassador Jean Kennedy Smith, the
sister of Jack and Bobby Kennedy. She took the opportunity to endorse
Hillary Clinton. Here she is.


MATTHEWS: I got to ask you, in the middle of a presidential campaign, less
than two weeks to go. I know you`re a Democrat. Hillary Clinton, tell me
all why you think she should be president.

JEAN KENNEDY SMITH: Oh, I think she`s terrific. I`ve always thought she
was terrific. And I think she`s always been committed to doing tremendous
work, particularly with women and with children and she`s always been
interested in foreign affairs. I think that she is everything that I can
see that`s needed for this job.


MATTHEWS: She was great today. You`ll see her tomorrow night.

Jean Kennedy Smith joins me on HARDBALL tomorrow night to talk about what
it was like to grow up a Kennedy. Her new book “The Nine of Us”. It`s
about growing up with Jack, and Bobby and the rest of them. And also, her
thoughts tomorrow night on having a first woman president. She didn`t grow
up in that generation.

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: We are back with the HARDBALL roundtable.

Nick, tell me something I don`t know – Nick Confessore of “The New York

CONFESSORE: Of “The New York Times”, OK.

Well, Donald Trump once promised he would spend $100 million of his own
money on this campaign. This morning, he was $44 million short of that
amount. We`ll find out tonight how short he really is.

MATTHEWS: That`s why he hates “The New York Times,” they pay attention.

CONFESSORE: There you go.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, Jeanne?

ZAINE: Since we`re talking about election vulnerability, and hacking, it`s
important to know the best way to guard against hacking, is to have a paper
backup of your vote. Eighty percent of us will have that when we go into
the polls, but that means 20 percent of us won`t. And some of those 20
percent are in Pennsylvania and Virginia.

MATTHEWS: When we walk out to the point, we have a piece of paper that –

ZAINE: Well, there`s a piece of paper that remains there, and 80 percent
of our cases that`s a backup that can be checked if the results look

MATTHEWS: You don`t want people to walk away, you don`t want anybody to
walk away with saying how they voted. There will be a committeeman or ward
member to check in here.

ZAINE: And don`t take a picture like Justin Timberlake.


SMITH: Police in North Dakota advanced on a group of protesters protesting
the Dakota Access oil pipeline, that`s supposed to advance through what was
once Standing Rock Sioux Land. Now, these folks are out here trying to
reclaim the land that`s been stolen from them generations ago by the U.S.

Jesse Jackson was there yesterday and said he called it the ripest case of
environmental racism he`s seen in a long time.

MATTHEWS: OK. Well, thank you, guys. Thanks to you, Jamil. Thank you,
Jeanne, and thank you, Nick.

Before we go to break, some breaking news. We`re just getting word that
the Pence plane has slid off the runway at LaGuardia airport in New York.
We can report that there are no injuries and we`ll be talking to Governor
Pence on this show tomorrow. So, everything is fine.

When we return, my Election Diary for tonight, October 27th.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Election Diary Thursday, October 27th.

Whatever you think of Donald Trump, I mean, whatever you think of Donald
Trump, you have to wonder, why isn`t he doing it? Why isn`t he running for
president? Why isn`t he spending every hour asking the voters again and
again, do you like way things are, the way they`ve been headed in this

Do you like the continued destruction of our manufacturing base, the jobs
that went with it? Do you like the uncontrolled illegal immigration? Do
you like the string of stupid wars from Iraq, to Libya, to Syria?

If you want to say yes to all that, you want to keep all this the way it
is? Vote for Hillary Clinton. If you don`t like the way things have been
headed, you got a chance to really shake the system to its roots.

If you wake up the day after the election, the same it is today, if it`s
the same four, or five, eight years from now, remember you had a chance to
change it but you were too dainty to do it. If Trump were to win this
election, those would be the reasons that would be listed right at the top
of the newspaper the day afterwards.

So, why doesn`t he say now what would win him the election? Why doesn`t he
fight and create stupid headlines with his battles with Megyn Kelly and
Dana Bash? He seems to devote day after day to fighting fights that make
people forget the reasons he started running for president, reasons that
continue to carry the shrinking chance he has to win this thing.

I say this not because I want Trump to win, but because I can`t stand
politics being practiced so pathetically.

We have been looking at live pictures, by the way, from LaGuardia Airport
in New York of Mike Pence`s plane which slid off the runway this evening.
There were no injuries.

And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.


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