Hardball With Chris Matthews, Transcript 10/11/2016

Jay Newton-Small, Jeremy Peters, Stephanie Schriock, Sam Stein, Jamal Simmons, Victoria McGrane

Date: October 11, 2016
Guest: Jay Newton-Small, Jeremy Peters, Stephanie Schriock, Sam Stein,
Jamal Simmons, Victoria McGrane

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: The party`s over.

Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

Four weeks to go until election day, and the Republican presidential
nominee has declared war on the Republican Party. That`s tonight`s
headline. Donald Trump went on a rampage today against the leaders of the
GOP, especially Paul Ryan, who yesterday said he would henceforth refuse to
either defend Trump or even allow himself to be seen with him.

Trump didn`t like it one bit. Quote, “Despite winning the second
debate in a landslide, it is hard to do well when Paul Ryan and others give
zero support.” That`s Trump. He added, “Our very weak and ineffective
leader, Paul Ryan, had a bad conference call where his members went wild at
his disloyalty.”

Well, Trump also went after the Republican Party itself. Quote, “With
the exception of cheating Bernie out of the nomination,” he tweeted, “the
Democrats have always proven to be far more loyal to each other than the
Republicans.” And, “Disloyal Republicans are far more difficult than
crooked Hillary,” he said. “They come at you from all sides. They don`t
know how to win. I will teach them.” That`s Trump.

And Trump is signaling he`s done feigning restraint. That`s been
restrained. Anyway, “It is so nice that the shackles have been taken off
me,” he said today, “and I can now fight for America the way I want.” In
other words, the next four weeks could be the wildest close to a
presidential race in modern times.

NBC`s Hallie Jackson joins us now from Panama City, Florida, where
Trump will speak later tonight. Hallie, I want you to listen to this.
This is Trump, Donald Trump himself, the real guy, back in 1998. And when
you listen to this, think to yourself, Didn`t he know his past would trail
him? Watch this.


MATTHEWS: Did you ever have a flicker when you were taking a shower
or walking to work or waking up in the morning where you said, Donald
Trump, you`ve won every battle you`ve ever fought. Why didn`t you run for
governor? Why don`t you run for president? Did you ever think about that?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: People want me to all the

MATTHEWS: What about you?

TRUMP: I don`t like it.


TRUMP: Can you imagine how controversial I`d be? You think about him
with the women, how about me with the women? Can you imagine…


MATTHEWS: “Can you imagine?” He knew! He knew his rep! He knew his
past. He knew what he`d done, what he`d bragged about. And yet he put his
head into the oven of this presidential campaign, knowing that in the end,
he would be followed by that, stalked by his own reality of the past.


MATTHEWS: What do you think? You know the guy. You cover him.

JACKSON: Well, yes, yes. He`s run this entire campaign on he is who
he is, let Trump be Trump. That is exactly what he has done for the last
15 months. And so I think, if I had to guess, there was a sense of, Hey, I
am who I am, I was who I was, and this is who I am now.

He has flip-flopped. People don`t care. The supporters that rally
around him don`t. You know, love him or hate him, and people do both, that
has been one of the constants in this campaign, is Trump`s going to Trump.

MATTHEWS: You know, I don`t know. Maybe he`s right about something -
- I heard Ken Langone, who was a very smart Republican business guy, say
even if he loses 59 to 41, which is possible, that still says that 41
percent of this country, more than two in five, voted for Trump.

So maybe he does have a sense – let me ask you about this fight. In
taking on – it`s such a barroom brawl now. He goes – you know, Paul Ryan
– I`m not a big fan of Paul Ryan. He comes out and says, I`m not going to
be seen with the guy again. And then he says, OK, buster, we`re going to
fight, and I`m going to win this without you and I`m going to make you look
stupid. You know, the same thing with John McCain. Here`s the guy who ran
for vice president last time, the guy who ran for president time before,
going into a boxing match in a back room with these guys.

JACKSON: Well, listen, I talked to a top adviser to Donald Trump
within the last maybe 30 minutes here, Chris, about that very issue. Why
pick these fights? Why do this? And the strategy, part of it, is, Hey, it
fits with his message of going after Washington and going after the
establishment. Rather than do it rhetorically, Donald Trump – and I`m
paraphrasing here, but Donald Trump`s going to do it on Twitter.

Yes, he`s going to continue to go after Hillary Clinton in ways that
you have seen develop over the last maybe several days, starting with that
debate on Sunday night, and even over the weekend a little bit. We expect
to see more of that tonight here in Panama City.

But this is something that Trump wants to do. It`s why he got on
Twitter and decided this was the message that he wanted to send. He`s
going to fight D.C.

MATTHEWS: But how does that get him to the White House?

JACKSON: Presumably, the strategy seems to be, if you do that, you
will rally the people around you that have supported you through this
primary and potentially, pick up more support. I mean, that`s the big
question mark, Chris. It`s not enough to just go for the floor that he`s
had. He`s had a floor of what, 40 – 40 percent, you know, when you look
at the numbers and you look at what strategists say. That is obviously not
enough for him to take the White House come November. He`s got to expand
his appeal.

You saw him try to do that a little bit after the convention, when you
saw kind of Prompter Trump, if you will, and sort of a more straight-laced,
if we can call it that, somebody who`s shifting in that direction. The
question now is, will Trump unleashed or unshackled, or what he wants to
call it, is that going to help him win more people over?

MATTHEWS: I don`t think it will work. Anyway, thank you, Hallie
Jackson. I know that`s the strategy.

Anyway, during the debate last night, or last night, Donald – Senator
John McCain of Arizona said he wouldn`t vote for his party`s nominee. Here
he is, John McCain.


SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: It`s not pleasant for me to renounce
the nominee of my party. He won the nomination fair and square. But this
is – I have daughters. I have friends. I have so many wonderful people
on my staff. They cannot be degraded and demeaned in that fashion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So who are you going to vote for?

MCCAIN: I think I might write in Lindsey Graham. He`s an old, good
friend of mine, and a lot of people like him. The fact is, I can`t –
seriously, I cannot vote for either one.


MATTHEWS: Well, today, Donald Trump responded via Twitter to what you
just heard. It doesn`t get any worse. No, it does get worse and worse.
“The very foul-mouthed Senator John McCain begged for my support during his
primary. I gave, he won, then he dropped me over locker room remarks.”
It`s going to get worse.

Anyway, I`m joined right now by Hugh Hewitt. He`s the host of “The
Hugh Hewitt Show” on the Salem Radio Network, and Michael Steele, former
chair of the Republican National Committee. Both are MSNBC analysts.

Michael, I don`t know whether Reince Priebus has the capability to
hold this party together. It`s not staying together. This is a battle
between all the brand names. The bold-faced names of the Republican Party
are now in a back room or a barroom fight now, throwing stuff at them about
they`re foul-mouthed and – it`s totally raw.

This isn`t – you know, this isn`t what we think of as a presidential


MATTHEWS: (INAUDIBLE) in my lifetime.

STEELE: No, it isn`t. And it`s really kind of the trifecta, if
you`re kind of looking at this. You got a base that is ticked off beyond
measure and means, hurling every possible piece of ammo they have at the
party as a whole, and principally, at its leadership.

You have the political leadership, as well as the executive and
congressional leadership, that`s, you know, disarray, have no idea which
way to turn to support, not support, to move towards or away from. And
then you have Donald Trump, the nominee of the party, who really doesn`t
care. That`s how this…

MATTHEWS: You know, I`m thinking in the Bible…

STEELE: That`s how this thing plays out.

MATTHEWS: You and I are the same religion. (INAUDIBLE) a lot of
people know this biblical story, of every – of Abrahamic background, but
let`s go with it. Samson and the temple – they blind – they cut off his
hair and they blind him, whatever, and he just brings down the temple.


MATTHEWS: You know? You know, what do you make of it? It just seems
like Samson, like, you know…

STEELE: Well, he finds the strength to do that. And that`s where
Donald Trump – that`s what one of those tweets was, I will show you how to
win. I have the wherewithal within me to do this. I don`t need you to do
this. And the party just doesn`t know how to respond to that at this

You`ve got the chairman, Reince Priebus, who`s sort of standing there,
like almost Samson between the pillars, stretched out, but doesn`t have the
strength to kind of pull all of these disparate pieces or ends to the point
where they can move forward together.

MATTHEWS: Yes, I just don`t see victory here. Hugh, you are – I
don`t know if you`re really a political type, but you certainly know it.
And I don`t know if you`ve ever been in the dirty trenches of politics, but
I don`t see the strategy here. What is the Trump strategy?

information because Paul Ryan was part of a ticket that got 60 million
votes. He is the unequivocal leader of the Republican Party. The caucus
is not deeply divided. There`s some bad information there. I know Dana
Rohrabacher very well. He`s an old friend. There may be five people who
are afraid of getting primaried. Dana`s going to get primaried by a guy
named Scott Bond…

MATTHEWS: For what, for being too close to Trump?

HEWITT: … in 2018. No, he`s just going to get primaried because
he`s out of – he`s not in step with the caucus. And Huelskamp didn`t lose

MATTHEWS: But he`s pretty far right.

HEWITT: He`s very far right, but he`s going to get primaried because
people want him gone because he`s ineffective. And so he`s mad at Paul
Ryan. There are a few other people who are loud in the caucus, but Paul
Ryan has the caucus behind him. McConnell has the Senate behind him. John
Thune came out against him.

I would urge Mr. Trump to recalibrate and treat this as a potentially
temporary separation, not a deeply divisive and irreparable divorce.

MATTHEWS: Who`s head of the Republican Party right now?

HEWITT: Paul Ryan.

MATTHEWS: Is he really?


MATTHEWS: And if you had a vote in this country among all Republican

HEWITT: Paul Ryan.

MATTHEWS: Republican voters.

HEWITT: Paul Ryan.

MATTHEWS: Michael, do you buy that? I don`t know if his name ID is
that high. Do you think that guy we`re looking at right now is the head of
the national Republican Party rank and file?

STEELE: Yes, he is. Yes, he is.

MATTHEWS: How do they even know about him? How`d they get to know
him that well?

STEELE: Well, thy – I assure you rank and file Republicans across
the nation know who Paul Ryan is. They`ve followed his career. They know
the work that he`s done. They know the proposals that he`s put out, the
battles that he`s fought…

MATTHEWS: Could he have beaten Trump if he`d have gotten in?

STEELE: What was that?

MATTHEWS: Could he have beaten Trump for the nomination?

STEELE: You know, that`s a very interesting question. I think he
would have been…

MATTHEWS: Well, it`s the question I just put to you guys. Who`s the
leader? That`s the guy who wins.

STEELE: I know, but this is my point. Given that Paul Ryan was the
nominee before, I think he would have had a great deal more cachet than the
others on that stage. Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: But would he have responded to the national mood on the
right and center-right against the establishment? Would he have carried
the flag for this sort of Brexit-type anger that people have over trade,
immigration and stupid wars? Would he have been that leader that Trump was
so effectively in the primaries?

STEELE: Actually, I think he would have been because I think he
fundamentally understands that – he saw what happened to his friend, Eric


STEELE: He`s seen what happened to other Republicans in their
districts. So yes, I think he has – I think he has a good sense of…


HEWITT: Donald Trump has a lot of very passionate, earnest, wonderful
people supporting him. Paul Ryan has millions supporting him. Again, 60
million people voted for Romney/Ryan. If right now you`re in a tight
congressional race anywhere in the United States, you have to raise money
and raise a crowd, you have to make a choice between asking Donald Trump or
Paul Ryan to call, you call Paul Ryan.


MATTHEWS: Well, in an event today with Donald Trump`s running mate,
Mike Pence – another running mate – one Trump supporter said she was,
quote, “ready for a revolution” if Clinton becomes president. Let`s watch
the interaction here, especially from Mr. Pence, Governor Pence.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And one of the biggest things I can tell you
that a lot of us are scared of is this voter fraud. Our lives depend on
this election. Our kids` futures depend on this election!


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I will tell you, just for me, and I don`t
want this to happen, but I will tell you, for me personally, if Hillary
Clinton gets in, I, myself, I`m ready for a revolution because we can`t
have her in…

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R-IN), VICE PRES. NOMINEE: Yes, you don`t – don`t
say that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But I`m just saying it! No, you know, I`m like
Trump. You know, I might (INAUDIBLE) speak for people here. (INAUDIBLE)
Am I not saying the truth here, guys? Come on!

PENCE: Yes. There`s a revolution coming on November the 8th, I
promise you.


MATTHEWS: Well, there he is showing some restraint, Michael. I
thought it was impressive. He didn`t join the demagoguery the woman was
pushing for. What do you mean, revolution? You know, armed conflict
against the government? What are we talking about here? This sounds like
2nd Amendment stuff again, and he said, No. We`re not going to – I`m not
going to be – that was a John McCain moment.

STEELE: Right.

MATTHEWS: I`m not going to go along with crazy talk.

STEELE: Right.

MATTHEWS: You win or lose an election – by the way, I want to ask
you about Trump. Do you think he`s supporting – is he supporting our
democracy when he says, If I lose, it was rigged, if I win, I`m going to
put her in jail? I mean, what is it? That is third world stuff that I
grew up, phony governments that call themselves democracies, and it`s
always a strong man that runs them. It`s never another election. Nobody
ever gets taken out of office by election. But they call themselves
democracies, people`s republics and all that nonsense…

STEELE: Right.

MATTHEWS: … because they don`t really have a democracy. And here`s
Trump saying, If I lose, it was stolen. If I win, I`m going to prosecute
her. That sounds like, you know, Pakistan. Ali Bhutto gets hanged because
he lost an election…

STEELE: But a lot of that…

MATTHEWS: … or some of that Indian politician – the same thing in
Latin America. You lose, you go to jail. Go ahead.

STEELE: Yes, I get that, Chris, and a lot of that is just hot

MATTHEWS: Was Trump pushing that? Why is he doing it?

STEELE: Well, because it works – he`s got to get his base. He`s got
to get that – he`s got to get his folks…

MATTHEWS: Does that help American democracy?

STEELE: I understand that. But you have to look at it from the
politics as he sees it.


MATTHEWS: Oh, the end justifies the means.

HEWITT: I want to defend him. I want to defend him.

MATTHEWS: Sacrifice the country for Trump`s success. Go ahead.

HEWITT: Look, I want to defend him. Mr. Trump is – is – I`ve asked
him to withdraw because I think Mike Pence could win. However, when he
gets angry, he`s angry at a media double standard…

STEELE: Right.

HEWITT: … that digs up stuff about him and does not dig up stuff –
and we`ve talked about this. We`ve seen this show a lot…

MATTHEWS: We`ve lived with the Clinton mess! I covered the Clinton
piece (ph) for years!

HEWITT: I know, but I`m talking about in the end of a – in the end
of a campaign, tapes arrive, tax returns display. The Podesta e-mails are
not getting the coverage…

MATTHEWS: (INAUDIBLE) “Access Hollywood” went after Donald Trump.

HEWITT: No, somebody on that team, some liberal on that production
team, found, hid, and then selectively released a tape in order to maximum
(ph) – and Ted Cruz (ph) say (ph) – why did this not come out in May?
Moreover, bad on the oppo teams, the Howard Stern tapes come out. The tax
returns get leaked. We saw this with George Bush`s DU…

MATTHEWS: The tax returns have not been released.

HEWITT: No, they got leaked, the one that got leaked and the last…

MATTHEWS: So what`s your point here?

HEWITT: My point is he is angry about the rigged nature of the media
throwing in 100 percent…

MATTHEWS: Is it rigged? Where`s the rigging going on?

HEWITT: The rig is that 95 percent of American media will vote for
Hillary Clinton, want her to win, and they`re working for it.

MATTHEWS: They rig the election because of their political point of

HEWITT: They rig the election because of the way that the media…

MATTHEWS: OK, let me explain…

HEWITT: … works.



MATTHEWS: How does the media works? I`m only thinking of one close
election since Nixon`s where Nixon – well, I`ll talk about it at the end
show, when Nixon gave it up in `60. In 2000, when the Supreme Court
intervened in our electoral process and gave it to W….

HEWITT: Strike that.

MATTHEWS: … gave it to W…

STEELE: No (INAUDIBLE) strike. When Dan Rather made a call in
Florida that kept the panhandle voters from coming out and delivering
Florida to Gore.

MATTHEWS: OK, so you`re telling me that the media roared at that and
stopped that process, that they somehow influenced that election for Al

HEWITT: Yes. Absolutely!


HEWITT: Dan Rather…

MATTHEWS: He lost!

HEWITT: Dan Rather – they closed…

MATTHEWS: He lost!

HEWITT: Who lost? Oh, in the end, but it led to an delegitimization
of the Bush presidency and to endless rancor when it did not have to

MATTHEWS: OK. Fine, I don`t think so. Al Gore gave a dramatic
concession speech, gave it to him. It was the best since the Lincoln…

HEWITT: Should have given it to him on the night of the November
election, as Nixon did to Kennedy in 1960.

MATTHEWS: Because it wasn`t decided yet! We didn`t have the count
in. Don`t you remember?

HEWITT: It was decided, and it was decided when the recount was run


HEWITT: … eight different ways to Sunday.

MATTHEWS: It`s not true. It`s just not true. And I`m not an Al Gore
fan, either.

Thank you, Michael Steele. Thank you, Hugh Hewitt. But I don`t think
you`re right.


MATTHEWS: … I tell you, this idea the media gave it to W., the
media gave it to Reagan, the media gave it to George Bush, Sr. – you`re
talking about a pretty weak media if it`s got this power.

Anyway, coming up, when Donald Trump threatened to put Hillary Clinton
in jail, it smacked of something a dictator would say, or certainly a
dictator would relish. And now one of Trump`s biggest supporters says he
needs to be more authoritarian. Wow.

After calling the Clinton the devil, claiming the election`s rigged
and saying he`ll jail his opponent, the real loser in this election may
well be the rule of law. Well, I don`t think so, but certainly reputation.

Plus, Hillary Clinton continues to be bolstered by big leads in the
polls, and now she`s got a big new super-surrogate by her side. The
aforementioned Al Gore returns to Florida, where he lost it all in 2000, to
warn millennials not to throw away their vote on a third party candidate –
the right message from the right guy.

And the HARDBALL roundtable is coming here this Tuesday night.
They`ll tell me three things you ought to know about this race that I don`t

Finally, my “election diary” for tonight, pretty hard-hitting for
October the 11th, this Tuesday night, just four weeks exactly left in this

This is HARDBALL, place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Well, this is new and it`s news. Our new NBC News/”Wall
Street Journal” poll now includes responses from voters after Sunday
night`s debate. The result, Hillary Clinton is maintaining her lead, but
there are small signs of life for the Trump campaign.

In a four-way matchup, as of yesterday, Clinton`s lead over Trump is
now 9 points. It had been 11, so Mr. Trump`s picked up a couple points,
thanks to that debate. The release of the “Access Hollywood” tape also was
included, but the debates helped move it toward Trump. Apparently, he only
had a 7-point deficit after the – in that one day that we could vote in
this poll on that power of the debate itself.

Anyway, that suggests Trump supporters were enthused by what they saw
Sunday night. The overall Clinton lead may be prohibitively wide. You
know, 9`s pretty long (ph).

Anyway, we`ll be right back.



oh, she`s crooked, folks. She`s crooked as a $3 bill.


TRUMP: OK. Here`s one. Just came out.

Lock her up is right. No.



MATTHEWS: That`s Donald Trump last night.

Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was him calling for Hillary Clinton to be locked up, provoking a
chorus of chants that have become increasingly familiar at his campaign
rallies, “Lock her up.”

And maybe they should say, “Locker room him up.”

Anyway, it comes after Trump said at the debate on Sunday that he
would direct his attorney general to appoint a special prosecutor to
investigate Clinton, and that, if he had his way, she`d be in jail. Let`s


TRUMP: I didn`t think I would say this, but I`m going to say it, and
I hate to say it. But if I win, I am going to instruct my attorney general
to get a special prosecutor to look into your situation, because there has
never been so many lies, so much deception. There has never been anything
like it, and we`re going to have a special prosecutor.

- it`s just awfully good that someone with the temperament of Donald Trump
is not in charge of the law in our country.

TRUMP: Because you`d be in jail.



MATTHEWS: Anyway, but, as a legal specialist told “The New York
Times,” Trump`s pledge represents a threat to the rule of law.

Quote: “He was suggesting that he would strip power from the
institutions that normally enforce the law, investing instead in himself, a
move that could, would chip away at the things that make America`s
democracy so resilient.”

Michael Chertoff, the former secretary of homeland security under
President Bush, said: “It smacks about what we read about in tin-pot
dictators in other parts of the world, where, when they win an election,
their first move is to imprison opponents.” Don`t we know that so well?

And former Bush Attorney General Michael Mukasey also told NPR it
would – quote – “make us look like a banana republic.”

Well, this also comes after Trump has repeatedly questioned the
legitimacy of our democratic process himself, suggesting multiple times on
the campaign trail that the election will be rigged against him. That`s,
of course, if he loses.

I`m joined now by “TIME” contributor Jay Newton-Small – that`s the
magazine – and Jeremy Peters, reporter with “The New York Times.”

Both, well, this is – I want to start with you, Jeremy.

And this kind of crackpot kind of politics, where, if I win, I will
jail her, if I lose, it was rigged, well, that sort of makes everything
sort of identical.


MATTHEWS: I mean, every – there`s no more arguments. It`s, if I
lose, that`s because it was rigged. If I win, she goes to jail because she
deserves to go to jail.

PETERS: Right.

MATTHEWS: In other words, the elections decide not just who is the
president, but they decide everything.

PETERS: What the law is, right.


PETERS: Well, that`s the thing.

And this is so much deeper than just a misunderstanding of the law and
American legal tradition, right? This is Trump`s impulse to not just
defeat his opponents, but humiliate them and belittle them. Like, it`s not
just enough that Hillary Clinton be defeated. No, he`s going to go after
it and he`s going to throw her in jail.

But, I mean, this is totally consistent with his other assertions that
he would abuse the law, whether it`s opening up libel law, which a
president has no authority to do, or whether it was his attacks on this
judge who he falsely called a Mexican.

I mean, but he has a history here of doing things that totally cross
the boundary when it comes to the American legal system and precedent.

MATTHEWS: What strikes me is the way he relished the idea of putting
her in jail.


MATTHEWS: If you listen to what he is saying, it`s not like, I`m
going to do this. I would love to be a dictator, because then I could
throw you in jail.

I mean, that`s an amazing statement. We have gotten used to just
about – we`re like the frog in the pot that keeps getting hotter, and he
keeps getting worse, and we keep listening to it. And we go, oh, that`s
not – that`s just a little worse than what he said yesterday, two days

impossibility of what Republicans keep promising their angry electorate,
right? They have this whole sector of the electorate that`s super angry.

And they keep saying, we`re going to repeal Obamacare. And 64 tries
in the House later, they have never managed to repeal Obamacare. And
that`s because the government was built by the founding fathers to be a
very deliberative process. It was built with the idea that rapid change
was akin to tyranny. And so you couldn`t have rapid change.

And so…

MATTHEWS: But what is Trump? What is Trump to you? What kind of a
candidate is he?


MATTHEWS: What is – no, what is he offering here?


MATTHEWS: This is an analytic question.

NEWTON-SMALL: He`s offer himself as a tyrant, essentially, saying,
I`m going to have this instant change. I`m going to produce all of this
massive, rapid change, and I`m going to jail my opponents, and I`m going to
do all these things that`s just, like I`m going to – and he can`t. We
won`t be able to do anything, because our government is not built that way.

PETERS: It`s almost Nixonian, but it`s…

MATTHEWS: Oh, it`s worse.

PETERS: It`s cruel…


MATTHEWS: Look, I will defend Nixon on this one.

PETERS: No, it`s cruel Nixonianism, right?


PETERS: Because there`s just – there`s an edge of bitterness here,
and a desire not to just defeat, but to crush and humiliate.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, while critics say Trump threatens to erode rule of
law, Trump defender Maine Governor Paul LePage told a local radio station
today that this country needs someone a little more authoritarian like
Trump to enforce rule of law.


GOV. PAUL LEPAGE (R), MAINE: Sometimes, I wonder that our
Constitution is not only broken, but it needs to – we need a Donald Trump
to show some authoritarian power in our country and bring back the rule of
law, because we have had eight years of a president that just – he is an

He just does it on his own. He ignores Congress. And we`re slipping.
Every single day, we`re slipping into anarchy.


MATTHEWS: Well, Nixon infamously said – and Nixon was, I still
argue, somewhat of a mixed bag. Obviously, in the end, he deserved to be
kicked out, but he did some good things.

But Nixon said, “When a president does it, it`s legal.” Remember that
great line?

PETERS: That`s exactly right.

MATTHEWS: I am, by definition, the law.


And that`s exactly what Donald Trump would do. He decides the laws.
He just – he doesn`t have the traditional constitutional executive
authority to enforce the law. He decides what they are and when they get
opened up, right, and revisited and revised.

And what Paul LePage was saying there was so striking, because it`s
this double standard that a lot of conservatives have. It`s OK for Donald
Trump to enhance the power of the executive branch and enforce and imply
laws as he sees fit, but it`s not OK for Barack Obama to do it.

MATTHEWS: Yes, he`s not Charles de Gaulle either. There`s no
national acclaim.

But you know what? Ken Langone was on FOX. I very impressive with
what he said. He`s a conservative Republican business guy in New York, a
very successful guy with Home Depot and everything. And he said, you know,
even if Trump loses 59-41, which might happen, maybe, that means 41 percent
of the country, more than two in five, supported all of this. They bought
everything he said.

They bought the need for this. They believe – and they will believe
the election was rigged. And they will believe Hillary should have gone to
jail. And that`s a lot of people.

NEWTON-SMALL: I mean, 52 percent of Republicans already believe that
the election will be rigged, right? He doesn`t need to say it over and
over again. It`s already there.

And that is, again, a racial sort of dog whisper in this case, like,
people said that somehow African-Americans stole the election from Mitt
Romney because there were precincts in Pennsylvania that voted 100 percent
for Barack Obama. And they are like, that`s impossible, it`s just not
possible, and so, therefore, the election was stolen.

PETERS: And that fits exactly what we were just talking about with
Trump`s undermining of the legal system, right? He`s undermining the
American electoral system.

MATTHEWS: I do know some people on the left, people I know well, who
believe that Ohio was stolen from John Kerry.

Anyway, thank you, Jay Newton-Small.

You know the election machines out there? Anyway – Diebold or
whatever it`s called?

Anyway, thank you, Jeremy Peters.

Up next: Al Gore hits the campaign trail for the first time for
Hillary Clinton. He was very good today, Al Gore. He has put on a little
weight, as you noticed, but – looks a little older.


MATTHEWS: But – well, is that funny? Am I allowed to say that?
When you see him for the first time and haven`t seen him for years, it does
grab you.

Anyway, he`s telling young people what he taught to tell them, because
after Ralph Nader got 92,000 votes in Florida and threw that election down
there to W., there should be a lesson there that older people should remind
younger people about: Don`t throw your vote away for somebody like Gary
Johnson or Jill Stein if you really care who wins the election.

It`s not just a protest opportunity. It`s the election of a
president, and elections have consequences.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was President Barack Obama tonight making a powerful pitch for
Hillary Clinton. As the Republican Party continues to engage in all-out
civil war, the Democratic Party is presenting, how`s this, a united front,
no longer that headline, Democrats in disarray, that old favorite.

Anyway, Hillary Clinton enlisted her heaviest hitters today and hit
two battleground states. Bill Clinton made two stops in Florida. Anyway,
he tried to – and also, I get – boy, somebody`s done something with the
prompter here – wrapped up an event in North Carolina.

And former Vice President Al Gore, the last-minute closer just called
up from the bullpen, headlined an event in Miami, Florida, a place that has
particular significance for Al Gore, because he lost the election there by
less than 600 votes.

Anyway, here`s Gore.


really, really, really counts a lot.


GORE: You can consider me as an exhibit A of that proof.


GORE: Elections have consequences. Your vote counts. Your vote has



MATTHEWS: Well, it`s been 16 years, believe it or not, since we have
seen the Gore name on a ballot, but the Clinton campaign hopes his
appearance, Al Gore`s appearance today in Florida will remind millennials
that every vote matters, something Secretary Clinton reminded Miami radio
listeners this morning.


key. If we win Florida, there is no way my opponent can win. That`s why
he`s going to be in Florida today. He knows that.

And despite all of the terrible things he has said and done, he is
still trying to win this election. And we cannot be complacent. We cannot
rest. Do not grow weary while doing good.


MATTHEWS: Well, I`m joined right now by The Huffington Post`s Sam
Stein, and Stephanie Schriock, who is of course president of EMILY`S List.

Oh, God, where do we start?


MATTHEWS: I think a couple things, too.

I mean, George Foreman – my daughter, who is very sophisticated –
she is a grad student in business now – she said she thinks of George
Foreman as the guy selling that hot plate, you know, the grill.


MATTHEWS: She doesn`t remember the Rumble in the Jungle and all that
stuff, like we all grew – I grew up with. And to me, George Foreman is
this frightening foe of Muhammad Ali, the guy that could beat up anybody.

SAM STEIN, THE HUFFINGTON POST: But it is a great grill.



MATTHEWS: So, to young people, I`m told.

Older – older millennials know about what happened in Florida in
2000, the disputed election, how the Supreme Court came in and gave it to
W., and all that, and how Gore just took it like a man, I would argue, just
took it. He had to do it for the country, just said, OK, you won, I lost,
even though I think I won.

And then there`s the later Al Gore of the “Inconvenient Truth,” which
was a hell of a documentary about the danger of climate change.


MATTHEWS: And a lot of younger millennials know it that way.

In both cases, how did Hillary Clinton use him today?

SCHRIOCK: Well, he was great because he talked about, every vote
matters. This was the last day you could register in Florida. So, they
were doing a big voter registration push. That`s why you saw so many folks
in Florida today. And so it`s, every vote matters, gives that – reminds
the millennials…


MATTHEWS: Also what Ralph Nader did down there, getting 92,000 votes.

SCHRIOCK: Yes, I think that`s part of – exactly.

And we have just got to make sure that everybody`s in that. The
climate change, I sort of asked about this, because my first response is,
are we sure that millennials remember Al Gore was my question. And it`s
the “Inconvenient Truth.” Like, so many of these younger millennials have
watched it. They have seen it.

MATTHEWS: They`re going to be there.


MATTHEWS: Because they`re going to be there. They`re going to be
around in 70 years.

SCHRIOCK: Yes, right. And one of their top issues is climate change,
of course.

MATTHEWS: And do you know why Florida matters on both coasts?
Because the water level is going to make Miami into Venice unless something

SCHRIOCK: That`s right.


SCHRIOCK: And it`s so great to see, they`re there, they`re talking
about the issues that matter to the state, that matter to the voters. And
I think it was a really great day for them.


STEIN: No, just I thought it was a doubly symbolic stop, obviously,
because Florida was ground zero for the 2000 election. And, then, of
course, it`s the state that`s getting hit hardest by climate change.

And he resonates in both those cases. But, in the end, I don`t think
she`s going to lose this election because Jill Stein siphons off votes. I
think what will end up happening…

MATTHEWS: You`re saying Jill Stein would get – she`s only getting 2
percent in our latest poll today.

STEIN: I don`t think Jill Stein is going to cause this election to go
– I think what Hillary should do…


MATTHEWS: So, you`re not related to her? You`re not?

STEIN: My great aunt Jill? No.


STEIN: I think what`s going to end up happening is, she needs to find
a way to the motivate her base. And what you`re seeing now in some of
these polls is that millennial support is, in fact, moving to Hillary.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, here`s President Obama tonight speaking to college
students in North Carolina about a vision of America that Hillary Clinton
shares with him. Watch this.


across this country of every color and every background and every faith who
are full of energy and ideas, and are not going to be held back by what is,
because they want to seize what could be, what ought to be.


OBAMA: And I see Americans of every background and every faith who
believe that we are stronger together, young, old, black, white, Latino,
Asian, Native American, folks with disabilities, men and women all pledging
allegiance to that same proud flag.


OBAMA: That`s the America I know. And there`s only one candidate in
this race who shares those beliefs and who`s devoted her life to it.


MATTHEWS: You know, there`s a little MLK there, just a little, don`t
you think, Stephanie? I mean, there`s something in that Bible…

SCHRIOCK: He`s extraordinary.

MATTHEWS: … Bible cadence that`s just overpowering, great stuff.

SCHRIOCK: Well, and, in North Carolina, a critical battleground

I mean, and this is a race, keep in mind, you have got a – you know,
this is a race – or a state that Barack Obama actually lost in 2012, won
in `8, lost in `12. Here in North Carolina, the Democratic governor
candidate is in the lead, our candidates.

But it`s like it`s good energy there.

STEIN: You have got to say this. He has benefited more than anyone
else from this campaign. You have two people who are just going at each it

MATTHEWS: So has Joe. So has Joe Biden.

STEIN: And Joe Biden, too.

MATTHEWS: If you`re not running for president – remember Hillary
when she was secretary of state? Numbers through the roof, through the


STEIN: But keep in mind, he has said, because of that, because of
that, he can be an effective surrogate for her.

MATTHEWS: If I was Donald Trump, I would be scared of that man we
just saw, because he`s coming into Philly in the suburbs in the next couple
weeks. And he`s going to have crowds like you have never seen, not just
minority crowds, everybody; 85 percent of Philly is going to vote Democrat.

And the burbs, this time around, are going to vote for a Democratic

STEIN: Because it`s his closing tour, too.

MATTHEWS: Because I think the women in the suburbs and their husbands
are going to be listening to the women, and there`s great be a lot of
influence coming from that direction in this election.

STEIN: I agree.

SCHRIOCK: Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: From your crowd, EMILY`S List.

SCHRIOCK: You bet.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, Stephanie Schriock and Sam Stein – no relation.


MATTHEWS: Up next – like I wasn`t related to that hurricane either.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, up next: Trump`s argument that Bill Clinton`s
transgressions – I love that word – are worse, will that actually work?
Well, we have got tape from an interview I did with Trump. I showed you a
bit before. Trump knew he had this problem, and he still ran.

Anyway, we will be right back.



In 1998, that`s 18 years ago, I sat down with Donald Trump and asked
him about his political ambitions. Now, Trump predicted at that time that
he would be too controversial to run for even governor, because of his
history with women, which he`d brought up and he compared it to Bill
Clinton, unfavorably, I think he said.


MATTHEWS: Did you ever have a flicker, when you were taking a shower
or walking to work or waking up in the morning when you said, Donald Trump,
you`ve won every battle you`ve ever fought, why don`t you run for governor?
Why don`t you run for president? Did you ever think about that?

DONALD TRUMP, BUSINESSMAN: People want me to all the time.

MATTHEWS: What about you?

TRUMP: I don`t like it.


TRUMP: Can you imagine how controversial I`d be? You think about him
with the women. How about me with the women? Can you imagine?



Well, let`s bring in the HARDBALL roundtable. Jamal Simmons is a
Democratic strategist, Victoria McGrane is a political reporter with the
great “Boston Globe”, covers the hub of the universe, and Rick Tyler is a
Republican strategist.

Let`s talk about that, Rick and you start because you`ve been in this
battle with Ted Cruz. Why are we seeing numbers that say that even though
we know all about Donald Trump, because he`s told us about his life, on
that tape, why are they sticking with him, the evangelicals in the
Republican Party?

RICK TYLER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think it`s their hatred of
Hillary Clinton. I don`t think there`s any doubt about it. It`s a
visceral reaction that – it`s dynamic. It`s not that they`re supporting
Trump – some are, many are, but a lot of them are saying, that`s the

Their central argument is, we can`t have Hillary because we can`t lose
to the Supreme Court, we can`t afford to continue the policies of the
Barack Obama administration.

MATTHEWS: Yes. And I understand by the way what Hillary Clinton said
about the Supreme Court the other day, if I were a conservative on these
issues, I wouldn`t want her on there either because she didn`t say anything
about the Constitution. She just went through her issues on the
progressive side of things and said, I want a Supreme Court justice who
does what I want him or her to do in those areas. So, she basically laid
down the fight. This is going to be about policy and philosophy.

VICTORIA MCGRANE, THE BOSTON GLOBE: That`s what I thought was so
striking about –

MATTHEWS: Not about who`s the best judge.

MCGRANE: That`s what was so the striking about that clip you just
played is that Donald Trump knows he has this history, and yet they still
seem caught so flat-footed on how to deal with this that he has still not
given a sincere apology. American voters love to forgive. But, during
that debate, it was still locker room banter. And –

MATTHEWS: What does that mean?

MCGRANE: It`s dismissing it. I mean, I have spoken to some
conservative women, women who consider themselves, you know, stalwart
Republicans, this was all over social media this weekend as well, who say
they`re done with the Republican Party. I don`t know what that means, but
they are viscerally angry about both the Trump dismissing these predatory
comments he made, but also –

MATTHEWS: It wasn`t – I love this word – lewd language. Of course,
it`s different than it would be in a crowd, or a mixed crowd, used to say
mixed company in the old day. Of course, it`s different in some cases, but
predatory. That`s what it sounds like. That was different than just bad

MCGRANE: So, you have the message and the messenger. So, you know,
Trump has this baggage, he should have known and been prepared how to deal
with it. But also, his message on how to once it came to light.

MATTHEWS: A friend of mine, a well-known musician. But I don`t quote
him. He e-mailed me the other day and said, it was just words, it wasn`t
not actions. He said he tried to pick up a married woman and pressured her
to have sex with him. That`s not words.

MCGRANE: Furniture shopping.

MATTHEWS: That wasn`t locker room talk with the boys, that was going
after a married woman and bragging about it.

JAMAL SIMMONS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Right. And there`s two things,
Chris. One, if you want to run for president, it takes you a while to
figure it out. Just waking up one morning and deciding to do it is always

MATTHEWS: But he spent years thinking about doing it and he said,

SIMMONS: That leads to point number two, which is the people who are
really good at politics surround themselves with people who tell you what
your real problems are, not the ones who are yes people, right? So, nobody
around him –

MATTHEWS: So, how`d you learn that? How`d you figure that out?

SIMMONS: I`ve been around people who weren`t that way. That`s how
you learn it.

MATTHEWS: Yes men, what you want is somebody to say, you know, I know
why you want to do that, but if you do that, you`re going to go to jail.
How`s that for a start?

SIMMONS: That`s right, like, this is bad news for you. And I think
he surrounded himself by people who didn`t tell him no and didn`t deal with
his real weaknesses or vulnerabilities.

MATTHEWS: Do you buy the argument? Rick, you know politicians.
Sometimes they are not calculating. They just are angry.

Do you think that scene at the White House correspondents when
President Obama just humiliated, he just kill holed (ph) Trump, do you
think he decide to run that moment? Some people say in that big
documentary, in the “Frontline” documentary, PBS, they say that was the
moment he said, I`m going to take this guy on. And that would explain why
he doesn`t care about his past, because he wasn`t thinking about his past.

RICK TYLER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: It could have been, but instead of
laughing a about it, he seemed to be pretty upset about it. He protects
himself, he doesn`t like to be made fun of.

But one thing – Donald Trump has spent a lot of time with his brand,
the Trump brand. People know his hotels and it seems like he put a lot of
thought into it. But in terms of politics, it doesn`t seem like he puts a
lot of thought. It`s almost like he`s an addict, he`s looking for the next
fix, the next adrenaline rush.

That`s why you get 3:00 a.m. tweets, why he`s making news all the

MATTHEWS: What`s why he`s good on the stump, too, because –


TYLER: Getting feedback from the audience.

MATTHEWS: He`s working with the crowd and he`s getting direction from
the crowd and he throws – like he said, “you`d be in jail,” was that
considered? Was that what he meant? He said, I`m going to say she belongs
in jail.

MCGRANE: Now, they`re putting out web ads and sending out e-mails
that say. It wasn`t just a heat of the moment quip, he`s doubling down on

MATTHEWS: Anyway, here`s Maggie Hassan, who has a very good chance to
be the next senator for New Hampshire, she`s a governor now. She`s
challenging Republican Senator Kelly Ayotte, who`s a very strong figure up
there, who shouldn`t be in this kind of trouble. Anyway, she launched a TV
ad today as per mention here, hitting ad for calling Trump a role model.
Brutal stuff here.


MODERATOR: Would you tell a child to aspire to be like Donald Trump?
Would you point to him as a role model?

SEN. KELLY AYOTTE (D), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Absolutely, I would do that.

TRUMP: I would look her right in her fat ugly face. I moved on her
like a (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I just start kissing them. It`s like a
magnet. Just kiss. I don`t even wait.

And when you`re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you treat women with respect?

TRUMP: I can`t say that either.


MODERATOR: Would you point to him as a role model?

AYOTTE: Absolutely, I would do that.


MATTHEWS: Well, in fairness to Senator Ayotte, who I have nothing
against, it took her to get to absolutely – she said, well, if he becomes
president, then, you know, I have to respect that.

Go ahead. I don`t want to defend –


MATTHEWS: But that editing was brutal.

TYLER: And she`s withdrawn the statement.

MCGRANE: Sure. She put out – immediately afterwards, she put out a
statement saying that she misspoke. But it does sort of encapsulates, it
just encapsulates the bind that Donald Trump put Republicans –

MATTHEWS: They`re in a bind.

MCGRANE: In tough races –

MATTHEWS: The roundtable is staying with us. And up next, these
three will tell me something I don`t know.

Be right back.


MATTHEWS: For our brand-new NBC News online poll shows most viewers
of Sunday night`s debate say that Hillary Clinton won. The poll finds 44
percent for Hillary, 34 percent for Trump, and one in five say neither one.
Well, that`s a bit of an improvement for Trump over his performance if the
first debate.

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: We`re back with the HARDBALL round table.

Jamal, tell me something I don`t know.

SIMMONS: Well, last week, the Generation Forward, Gen Forward poll
came out of Chicago and looks at millennials, but it highlights black and
Latino millennials. And it found a big difference between the way black
and Latino millennials look at third party candidates other than white
millennials. So, we look at the support for Gary Johnson.

MATTHEWS: More or less? Are they more favorable –

SIMMONS: Much more for Gary Johnson out of white millennials, about
15 percent, about black and Latinos, 4 and 8 percent.

MATTHEWS: Explain.

SIMMONS: So, that`s –

MATTHEWS: What`s your analysis of that?

SIMMONS: The analysis is that white millennials are – they`re a
little more conservative. They`re also more enamored, even the liberals,
with Gary Johnson. Black millennials are sticking with Hillary by much
greater margin.


MCGRANE: So, mine is also on millennials. I spent a week in Raleigh,
North Carolina. This was, of course, before Donald Trump`s Hollywood
access video. But what I was struck by is these millennials hated both
candidates. They hate Clinton, they hate Trump. Some of them weren`t even
that excited about the third party.

MATTHEWS: What`s the Hillary problem?

MCGRANE: They don`t trust her. She`s not authentic. Most of them
were excited about Bernie in a way that young people were excited about
Obama in `08.

MATTHEWS: How of this –

MCGRANE: But they are all going to vote and most of them are going to
vote for Clinton. They hate her, they say. But they`re still going to
vote for her.

MATTHEWS: Why? What is it – do they have a name for that?

MCGRANE: Inauthentic, that they don`t trust her. They were bothered
by the e-mails. I think, you know, the Bernie Sanders arguments during the
primary –


MCGRANE: – stuck.

TYLER: I don`t know if you know this. It`s more than a prediction,
but the – I think the Trump campaign realizes they`re going to lose. It`s
all scorched earth tactics to take Hillary down which won`t work, but the
people surrounding Trump will form the most robust anti-Clinton lucrative
organization post election and they`ll also work with the takeover of the
Republican Party, blaming the Republicans and blaming the establishment for
what happened.

MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you, Jamal Simmons. Thank you, Victoria McGrane
and Rick Tyler.

When we return, my election diary for tonight, October 11th, which is
four weeks to go exactly before the election.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Election Diary Tuesday October 11th, 2016.

It`s no surprise to any one of you that I love American politics.
It`s not just the competition and the stakes for the candidates. It`s for
the power of our democracy itself. It`s for what it is. How it`s made
this country great.

We Americans don`t look at the presidency on the basis of policy alone
or even philosophies. It`s the person we get excited about, the person who
attracts us. And when we look at our presidents in modern times, there`s
FDR, Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, Jack Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson and
Ronald Reagan. They`re the leaders our children and grandchildren and
generations to come will write about, wonder about, and, yes, argue about.

There`s one ingredient we`d like to believe all of these presidents
have shared, a respect for the country, the office, the Constitution, our
democratic system, and where they have failed we`ve kept notice of that,
too. But they have loved our democracy itself. That`s for sure.

Donald Trump is making clear he does not. He relishes the notion of
being a dictator, being able to throw his opponent, as he put it on Sunday
night`s debate in jail. What he says is actually worse. If he wins, he
promises to prosecute his opponent. If he loses, he promised to say the
election was rigged.

This kind of talk, threatening to jail his political rival,
threatening to say the election was rigged isn`t the talk of the locker
room. It`s the talk of third world dictators. You talk of hearing with
the word Democratic in those countries that shows up in the country`s name,
there`s no democracy and reality in those countries. They`re run by
strongmen in the interest of strongmen. In other words, bullies.

Look, Al Gore accepted is defeat in the year 2000 even though he
believed people voted for him – more people in Florida, even though we new
he had 600,000 more popular votes nationwide than his rival. He did it
because in addition to believing in climate change, he believes in America.

Does anyone listening to Donald Trump in the last several months,
especially the last couple of days think he would do what Al Gore did?
That he would honor the institutions of our country even if it cost him
closing this deal?

Even Richard Nixon who came within a single vote per precinct back in
1960 refused to challenge the election results because of what the
resulting division would do to our country. Does anyone believe Donald
Trump would make a similar choice? And if not, why would you even think of
investing in him the moral authority the American presidency?

And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC`S “ALL IN” HOST (voice-over): Tonight on “ALL IN”

TRUMP: I mean, congressmen, who likes congressmen?

HAYES: Donald Trump declares war.

TRUMP: Is it really sad that we don`t have stronger leadership on
both sides?

HAYES: Twenty-eight days out, the Republican nominee turns on

important that we let Trump be Trump.

HAYES: Tonight, new poll numbers.


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