Show: HARDBALL Date: September 19, 2016 Guest: Tara Maller, Rudy Giuliani, April Ryan, Maureen Dowd, Chris Murphy, April Ryan
CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: The candidates debate terrorism.
Let`s play HARDBALL.
Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.
Well, tonight, once again, the epicenter of the war on terrorism is New York City, the country`s point of entry, its historic melting pot. And once again, we have another name added frighteningly to the vocabulary of violence, another episode to stir fear, the anger that always accompanies one and the instinctive search for greater security, now with two presidential candidates, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, claiming to know the way.
Well, Ahmad Rahami, the suspect in this weekend`s bombings in New York City and New Jersey, was captured this morning after a dramatic shoot-out with police. Rahami, a 28-year-old immigrant from Afghanistan and a naturalized U.S. citizen, was seen in surveillance footage Saturday night near the site of the bomb blast in the Chelsea neighborhood of Manhattan. His fingerprint was also reportedly found on another device that failed to detonate. That`s according to a senior law enforcement official.
All told, there were three bombs Saturday. The first went off Saturday morning in Seaside Park, New Jersey, before the start of a charity race. There were no injuries. On Saturday night, a pressure cooker bomb packed with shrapnel exploded in Manhattan, injuring 29 people. A second bomb that failed to detonate was found several blocks away, while on Sunday night, five more explosive devices were found in a garbage can at a train station in New Jersey.
We learned more details about the suspect at a press conference this afternoon with the New York City mayor and law enforcement officials.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK CITY: Based on the information we have now, we have every reason to believe this was an act of terror.
WILLIAM SWEENEY, FBI ASST. DIRECTOR: We have directly linked Rahami to devices from New York and from Saturday in New Jersey.
I have no indication that there is a cell operating in the area and city (ph). The investigation is ongoing. So as we develop more information, we continue to go, but I have no indication that there`s a cell operating here.
There`s nothing to indicate that currently, he was on our radar. We had a report of a domestic incident some time ago. That was -- the allegations were recanted. And I don`t have any other information. We`ll keep digging.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, President Obama is in New York himself today for the United Nations General Assembly. He spoke earlier in the day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to take this opportunity to reassure the people in this city, in this region and Americans across our country that our counterterrorism and law enforcement professionals at every level, federal, state and local, are working together around the clock to prevent attacks and to keep us safe.
By showing those who want to do us harm that they will never beat us, by showing the entire world that, as Americans, we do not and never will give in to fear, that`s going to be the most important ingredient in us defeating those who would carry out terrorist acts against us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, both of the presidential candidates, Trump and Clinton, weighed in today. On Fox News this morning, Trump said this was due to the fact, this incident, this terrorism, was due to the fact that the country has been weak. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Well, it`s a mess and it`s a shame, and we -- we`re going to have to be very tough. I think maybe we`re going to be seeing a big change over the last couple of days. I think this is something that maybe we`ll get -- you know, will happen perhaps more and more all over the country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you mean, more terror strikes?
TRUMP: Yes, because we`ve been weak. Our country has been weak. We`re letting people in by the thousands and tens of thousands. I`ve been saying you`ve got to stop it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, that`s that.
This morning, Hillary Clinton also addressed the attack and answered a question about Trump`s approach to immigration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: This threat is real, but so is our resolve. Americans will not cower. We will prevail. We will defend our country, and we will defeat the evil, twisted ideology of the terrorists.
So let`s not get diverted and distracted by the kind of campaign rhetoric we hear coming from the other side. This is a serious challenge. We are well equipped to meet it. And we can do so in keeping with smart law enforcement, good intelligence and in concert with our values.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, for the latest on the investigation, I`m joined by NBC justice correspondent Pete Williams. Pete, what do we know about this guy, this guy who did it?
PETE WILLIAMS, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, a fair amount. In terms of his past, he came here in `95 with his parents, when he was about 7 years old. He was born in 1988 in Afghanistan. His parents sought asylum. They were eventually granted asylum.
He became a U.S. citizen, went to high school and college in New Jersey, and then began to travel to Afghanistan. Not surprising, that`s where he`s from, but his friends have said that he became radicalized, or at least he was a changed person after he came back from Afghanistan.
Now, that`s going to be one of the big questions here is, what caused him to take this route? That`s something that the government`s going to have to try to figure out.
But for now, they`re still trying to build a criminal case against him, and that`s a case that`s going to be based on evidence, Chris. And the evidence here -- they`ve got a lot of it for the simple reason that two of the three bombs they say he planted didn`t go off.
Now, one of them was a pressure cooker bomb on 27th Street in New York that they found as they were canvassing the neighborhood for other explosives, and they found his fingerprint on it. Now, that`s really quite astonishing. You know, they always look for that and they seldom find it in these bombing cases. But they say they found his fingerprint on it.
Secondly, cell phones were attached to it. They got the number of the cell phone, they figured out whose cell phone it was, where it was purchased, again leading to him.
And then you have this surveillance video of him -- not that one there, but the surveillance video of him walking around the two places where the bombs were set. So just lots of evidence led to him, and that`s going to be the basis of these charges.
The FBI said today that they can link him to all three of the bombs, the one set at Seaside Park, New Jersey, at the 5K race on Saturday, and then the two in Chelsea on Sunday night.
The question of his radicalization, what caused him to do this -- that`s one they`ll eventually have to answer for the trial. But in terms of filing the criminal charges, really, all they -- their goal now is to say - - to try to show that he did it.
And of course, we haven`t, obviously, heard from him. I`m told that he had surgery today. He was sedated for that. He hasn`t -- they really haven`t had a chance to question him yet. They`ve tried a little, and he wasn`t in a very responsive mood, I`m told.
MATTHEWS: OK. Thanks, Pete. You answered all my questions without me asking them.
(LAUGHTER)
WILLIAMS: OK!
MATTHEWS: Thanks so much, as always.
WILLIAMS: You bet.
MATTHEWS: NBC`s Ayman Mohyeldin is in Linden, New Jersey, where the suspect was taken into custody today. Ayman, thank you. What can we get out of this guy? What do you think the questions will be?
He goes over to Pakistan or Afghanistan or both over the years. You know what disturbs me as an American, and you too, I`m sure, is that when somebody goes through the effort to become a U.S. citizen, and it`s not easy, you have to memorize all the good stuff, understand our culture, at least verbally understand it, you want to become an American. And to go from all the effort to become an American, saluting the flag and the Pledge of Allegiance and everything you`ve -- at least you`ve sweared to, you decide to go the other way. That`s what disturbs I think people like us.
AYMAN MOHYELDIN, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Oh, yes. I mean, there`s no doubt that there`s a lot of very troubling questions about this because, you know, Chris, on one hand, you were talking about something that is very American. You know, on the surface, this was a father who had a small chicken restaurant. So in some ways, it is the American dream.
He immigrated to this country, lived in a blue-collar community, worked. His children worked with him, trying to make a better living for himself. So there`s no doubt that there are some characteristics on the surface that would say he was living that kind of American immigrant dream that so many people aspire to.
But at the same time, you`re also raising these questions about, Well, what led this individual to carry this out? And all of these will become questions that authorities and investigators will try to piece together. There`s no doubt that we`re using the word "radicalism" right now, given the identity of the individual, but that may be premature as we learn more about the motivations behind that individual.
You know, one of the points that was brought up earlier today when I was talking to one of the law enforcement officials here, is, I was asking him, Why do you think this guy would be sleeping out on the street here...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
MOHYELDIN: ... and you know, on the runaway from cops? And one of the things he said to me was because, Well, maybe he didn`t have a network. Maybe he didn`t have this cell that we`ve kind of been talking about in the media, a suggestion that perhaps he carried this out by himself. He didn`t have a network of support. He didn`t have a network of accomplices who were willing to take him in and to try to provide him with that shelter.
So this notion that he was part of a larger cell may be somewhat premature. And as Pete Williams was reporting, he has not been hearing that, as well, from his sources.
But you brought up the point about the American dream and how he fits into it, and those are certainly questions that are going to be asked by investigators. What, if anything, led to this guy carrying this type of attack or wanting to carry these types of attack out? Was it some mental disturbance? Was it purely criminal, or was it radicalization?
MATTHEWS: Or was it just that he didn`t fit in and he was angry at the people who were hassling his family at that restaurant. You heard those stories, of course, too. We`ll have to figure that out over the next couple days.
Ayman, thank you, Ayman Mohyeldin, for this report on site.
Joining me right now is Tara Maller, who`s a senior policy adviser for the Counterterrorism Project to Counter Extremism (sic) and a military analyst at the CIA (sic).
Let me ask you about this. How do you put the motives together, just on what you heard? Apparently, people were -- regular people in the neighborhood were hassling -- although it`s always struck me, if you`re going to run a restaurant, you`ve got to be somewhat social. (INAUDIBLE) but they say this family didn`t talk to anybody. I don`t even know how you do that. I guess it`s a takeout kind of place.
The other thing is, how do you mix together (INAUDIBLE) increasing (ph) these misfit kind of situations, whether it`s somebody in the Army or it`s somebody out in San Bernardino, in a government office out there. These people seem to be just fitting into the category of somewhere up in Connecticut, those kind of shooters, you know what I mean?
Like, it`s a combination of just, I don`t like the people around me. I`m going to blow out against them, or I`m going to send a message internationally. And this guy didn`t even have an escape plan, apparently.
TARA MALLER, FORMER CIA ANALYST: You`re exactly right. And I think, in a lot of these cases, we look to cling to one single motivation. It could be a mix of things.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
MALLER: He could have been having problems at home. He could have been having problems psychologically. He could have been having (ph) trips to Afghanistan. He could have been exposed to radical jihadist content on line. All these things created a perfect storm and motivated him to carry out the attack.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
MALLER: We don`t know yet. It`s too early to say. But I can guarantee you the speed of this investigation, how quickly they apprehended him, the evidence they have, the computers and the cell phones they`re going to be able to get into -- I can tell you we`re going to have a lot more information about his motivations, who he was in touch with, what he may have believed. If there were jihadist motivations behind it, we`ll see that process of radicalization.
A lot of these people -- it`s not that they`re having contact with ISIS directly. They`re not having meetings. They`re not going -- becoming part of a high-tier (ph) network. They`re becoming exposed to the content, the propaganda on line.
MATTHEWS: They want it.
MALLER: Because they want it. They`re seeking it out.
MATTHEWS: Yes, you know...
MALLER: And it`s out there. You know, the tech companies need to start cracking down on a lot -- that`s one of the things that (INAUDIBLE)
MATTHEWS: The largest countries in the world, China and India, have a lots of poor people out there. They`re not coming at us, right? So why do certain groups of people come after us?
MALLER: Well, I think there are a lot of reasons. I mean, you can look...
MATTHEWS: It`s not poverty. The people that hit us on 9/11 were educated technicians. These guys who put that together had careers ahead of them. They were not impoverished or in trouble, have any reason to hate anybody, except they just didn`t fit in somehow.
MALLER: Right. But you do have strongholds in Syria and Iraq where there are -- there is an organization that`s trying to propagate an anti-Western message. And some of these individuals, disenfranchised in different places -- it`s in Europe, too. It`s in Brussels. It`s in Paris.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
MALLER: They will grasp onto this, not just in terms of going to fight there as a foreign fighter...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
MALLER: ... but just ideologically, messages resonate. And they might have other problems. In many of these cases, they do.
MATTHEWS: Yes, they go looking on line to try to find new -- new allies in life.
MALLER: In this case, it didn`t seem like there was such great planning.
MATTHEWS: No.
MALLER: I mean, he dropped it in a dumpster. There`s plenty of other targets that probably -- we`re fortunate he dropped it in a dumpster.
MATTHEWS: Why`d they find him at a doorstep? I thought he may have done it, being positive, because he didn`t want to incriminate his family or anybody else. So he said, I`m going to go sit -- let them -- let them pick me up.
MALLER: You`re ascribing very genuine and benign motivations. I mean, he might not have anywhere to go.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
MALLER: He might not have planned this well. He might not have thought it out. It seems like there were lots of problems with this actual attack itself. I mean, he could have probably put that in a lot of other places and hit more people. Fortunately, he did not.
MATTHEWS: Why`d he attack dumpsters?
MALLER: A dumpster is -- it`s meant to confine an explosive, in a sense.
MATTHEWS: Yes. Yes.
MALLER: It`s barricading it, so...
MATTHEWS: It`s a safe attack, but not a safe escape because he left all the evidence. Thank you, Tara.
MALLER: You`re welcome. Thanks for having me.
Coming up right now, the politics of terror. We`re going to get reaction from former New York mayor Rudy Giuliani, a very prominent Trump supporter, of course, along with Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, who`s backing Hillary Clinton.
This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: With 50 days before the election, Florida`s too close to call. Let`s check the HARDBALL "Scoreboard."
According to a new Siena College poll for "The New York Times," Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are tied 43-all down in Florida. It`s a head-to- head matchup, and they`re even. Next to Georgia, where a new Monmouth poll shows Donald Trump`s leading by 3 now. That`s 3 points. It`s Trump 45, Hillary Clinton 42, in a state that Democrats haven`t won by `92, still, Trump`s still leading.
And we`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. This weekend`s bombings in New York and New Jersey have pushed national security back to the forefront of the presidential debate and the campaign itself, with each side lobbing attacks at the other.
Donald Trump accused Hillary Clinton of being harder on his supporters than she is on Islamic terrorists. Here he goes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Hillary Clinton talks tougher about my supporters than she does about Islamic terrorists, right?
(BOOS)
TRUMP: She calls the patriotic Americans who support our campaign, many of them cops and soldiers, deplorable and irredeemable. And she means it.
(BOOS)
TRUMP: To hear the words Hillary Clinton uses, one could be forgiven for getting the impression that she thinks these hard-working Americans are somehow a greater threat to our country than Islamic extremists.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, Hillary Clinton pushed back, of course, as you might expect, accusing Donald Trump of demagoguery. Here she goes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Well, it`s like so much else he says, it`s not grounded in fact. It`s, you know, meant to make some kind of demagogic point. And the facts are pretty clear that, you know, we still have challenges. That`s what I have been talking about throughout this campaign. I am prepared to, ready to actually take on those challenges, not engage in a lot of, you know, irresponsible, reckless rhetoric.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Anyway, for more, we`re joined right now by the former mayor of New York City, Rudy Giuliani. He`s a big Trump senior adviser. Mr. Mayor, it`s always great to have you on the show.
And by the way, congratulations on having gotten your candidate to say that President Obama`s a legitimate president. That was a big lift...
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: ... a heavy lift, and I give you credit for that, even though it was a bit delayed. Anyway, and also, Hillary Clinton`s health -- I hope you just saw her there. She looks very healthy. Do you think she`s back on her feet again, or do you think it`s a more serious injury -- a more serious illness than...
RUDY GIULIANI (R), FMR. NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: I will -- I will -- I will...
MATTHEWS: ... say pneumonia?
GIULIANI: I will -- I will -- will keep silent about it, but shortly after I said I thought she looked ill, she collapsed, so I don`t know.
MATTHEWS: What was the causality there? Were you the cause or just the measurer?
GIULIANI: Maybe I was the cause. It was only four days after, and all you people -- all you people in the media went crazy on me when I said she looked pale. I really meant it. She looked pale.
MATTHEWS: Don`t start saying I`m sick because...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: ... powers beyond your imagination here, Mr. Mayor. Thank you. Let`s talk about...
GIULIANI: It could be.
MATTHEWS: ... something that you`re really now, well, positively known for, and that`s how to deal with terrible situations. Here again, it`s New York, the epicenter of our fight against terrorism, striking New York and New Jersey, right across from New York, across the Hudson.
And here we are, and yet it`s a person who really disturbs me. I don`t know if you just heard a minute ago. Like you and everybody else in this country, we`d like to think that these people who come to America to make it a better life, become Americans, become naturalized, with all the effort and purpose that that entails, becoming Americans, and then becoming our enemy, potentially. He`s a suspect, at least.
What do we make of those cases?
GIULIANI: Well, I`ll tell you what you make of it in the big picture. We`re fighting a two-front war, but we don`t seem to realize it. We`re fighting ISIS and various other Islamic terrorist groups overseas, in some way -- very minor engagement there.
And then the second front is the homeland. ISIS, unlike al Qaeda, has figured out how to activate terrorist attacks in the homeland. Al Qaeda did one, September 11. And after that, we didn`t have another one until Fort Hood under -- under Obama.
So...
MATTHEWS: Yes, but Fort Hood wasn`t international, was it? They may have been listened to somebody on the Internet, but...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Yes?
GIULIANI: Chris, Chris, if you read bin Laden, if you read Adnani, who is basically the -- was the theoretician for ISIS, this is what they have been talking about for 12, 15 years, how they can self-radicalize people in the United States, in France, in Brussels.
This is not accidental, in the sense that it`s just happening because we`re having a bad year. This is happening because it`s part of their plan. They have always planned a two-front war against us, and they are doing very well right now with the second front of that war.
MATTHEWS: What would you do?
GIULIANI: And they are also located in 28 -- they`re located in 28 countries.
It was kind of odd to hear the vice presidential candidate of the Democratic Party saying that we`re winning the war against ISIS. If this is what it means to win the war against ISIS, go tell that to the people of New York. Go tell that to the people of Minnesota who get stabbed.
MATTHEWS: OK.
But we have an imam who gets on the Internet, and he apparently influenced the guy down in Fort Hood and now the military guy down there that committed the terrorism down there. And then, in this case, this guy is apparently inspired by something he picked up on the Internet.
You say self-radicalized. That`s the right word. But how do you stop this process if you`re president of the United States?
GIULIANI: Well, number one, you don`t put your head in the sand and not say radical Islamic terrorism and talk about how bad it is, and talk about how terrible it is.
Maybe you initiate a Voice of America, like we did during the Cold War, where we talked about how much greater our values were than the values of communism.
President Obama is not fighting the war of words. He`s not fighting the war of ideology, and nor is Hillary Clinton. They are running away from it. They don`t want to say radical Islam. They think it`s going to insult good Islamic people.
MATTHEWS: Why does that help?
GIULIANI: If I followed that, the mafia would still exist.
Why does it help? Because it -- it -- it helps to give good people a place to rally around. You know, when the people of Iran revolted, Obama didn`t do what Reagan did with solidarity, which is support them. He turned his back on them, because he wanted a deal with -- with -- with Iran. He does not know how to fight the battle of values for the United States. And...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Do you think this guy, Rahami, the new suspect who`s in custody now at the hospital in New York, do you think he would not have been radicalized if we had said Islamic terror, radical terrorism?
Do you think the phrase would have stopped him from radicalizing, hearing that on television from you?
GIULIANI: I`m not sure it would have...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: That sounds like abracadabra to me. Like you say, abracadabra and something doesn`t happen.
GIULIANI: Well, it wasn`t abracadabra in Poland, Czechoslovakia and all of the Baltic states.
MATTHEWS: No, but just calling -- he knows what it is. But they know what`s motivating them.
GIULIANI: Years and years...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
GIULIANI: Well, if only one side is motivating him, and there`s no counter to that side, we`re going to lose a lot of people.
The only people who are motivating right now online are the ISIS people and the radical Islamic terrorists. Nobody is motivating people online about what a wonderful country this is, what a great country this is, what an exceptional country this is. Would it have stopped him? How do I know? Did it ultimately defeat communism? Yes, it did.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: I`m with you.
(CROSSTALK)
GIULIANI: And don`t tell me it`s fighting the battle of words.
MATTHEWS: Mr. Mayor, I`m with you on the Voice of America. I love that stuff. I love the whole thing. I used to listen to it for two years in Africa.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Yes, go ahead.
GIULIANI: Hillary Clinton is particularly defensive on this issue, because she and Barack Obama own ISIS. This is -- this never had to happen.
Iraq was fairly stabilized when they took over because of the surge. Their withdrawal of troops from Iraq...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: That`s not fair. Al Qaeda happened on your watch. You`re not responsible for al Qaeda. I mean, we don`t blame you for 9/11. Why are you blaming them for ISIS?
(CROSSTALK)
GIULIANI: Well, they shouldn`t. I wasn`t -- I had nothing to do with foreign policy ever.
MATTHEWS: Well, W. was head of it. Nobody`s ever blamed -- who`s blamed W. for what happened on 9/11?
GIULIANI: Well, Clinton.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: You guys attack other people when it happens on their watch, but you don`t accept it when it happens on your watch.
GIULIANI: Clinton was when al -- look, she made ISIS possible.
And, today, she`s saying that Trump`s words incited the guy. Come on. Stop the phoniness.
MATTHEWS: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Well, just remember, just remember, the president of the United States...
(CROSSTALK)
GIULIANI: And it`s a critical mistake
MATTHEWS: OK, OK. Just...
GIULIANI: And your side blasted...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: You can call it my side all you want. But that`s not going to work.
My side`s America.
Let me just tell you, Mr. Mayor...
GIULIANI: Your side blasted Bush. And so did my side.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: OK.
In August of 2001, the president of the United States got a note from Condi Rice, who was head of national security, saying, al Qaeda to attack within the United States.
I would consider that a pretty good warning of what was coming on 9/11. But nobody spent the last 15 years attacking W. for that. They have attacked him for a war in Iraq, but not for that.
GIULIANI: Well, I`m going to tell you -- I`m going to tell you -- I`m going to tell you why.
Because there was that one attack, and then we had no more, because he immediately went on offensive.
MATTHEWS: OK.
GIULIANI: He immediately had them back in their caves.
You can`t plan attacks on America when you`re in caves. Obama has withdrawn. Obama has been basically a pacifist. Hillary Clinton announced the other night on the presidential forum that she`s not going to use ground troops. How does a commander in chief take that option off the table?
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
GIULIANI: Our weakness -- our weakness is provoking them.
MATTHEWS: OK, let me ask you one question, political question, partisan question.
If 9/11, where you did serve very well -- we have always given you credit for that here. Certainly, I have. And I believe it.
GIULIANI: Thank you.
MATTHEWS: But if that had happened on a Democratic president`s watch, would you have been so generous as not blame it on a Democratic president?
GIULIANI: Of course. I had a...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: You would not have blamed the Democratic president for 9/11 if it happened on his watch or her watch?
(CROSSTALK)
GIULIANI: I would not have -- I would not have -- I would not have blamed -- I wouldn`t have blamed anybody -- anybody for it. I had a city I had to save. I worked with Hillary Clinton. I worked with Chuck Schumer.
MATTHEWS: Well, you`re blaming President Obama for ISIS. You`re blaming President Obama for ISIS and Hillary Clinton.
GIULIANI: Well, I am blaming President Obama for being asleep at the switch for eight years in dealing with radical Islamic terrorism.
MATTHEWS: OK. OK.
GIULIANI: I find it mind-boggling that he can`t even say the words.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: He doesn`t believe in your abracadabra theory. That`s why, Mr. Mayor. He doesn`t believe saying magic words, open sesame, is going to end terrorism. He just doesn`t believe it, or he would be doing it.
(CROSSTALK)
GIULIANI: Chris, it`s working for them. They`re using social media and they`re winning.
MATTHEWS: OK, OK.
GIULIANI: We don`t use social media and we`re losing. So, I don`t know. You can stick with the losers, if you want.
MATTHEWS: OK.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: Mr. Mayor, don`t get personal. I try to avoid that.
(LAUGHTER)
GIULIANI: I`m not getting personal.
MATTHEWS: Mr. Mayor, Rudy Giuliani...
(CROSSTALK)
GIULIANI: You can stick with the losers, if you want. They`re losers.
MATTHEWS: OK, thank you very much.
And now we return -- thank you so much, Mr. Mayor.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: And now let`s turn to Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. He`s a Hillary Clinton backer.
Do you think that`s true, that the Republicans wouldn`t have bashed the Democrats if 9/11 occurred under a Democratic president? There`s no doubt in my mind.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D), CONNECTICUT: Well, you had a memo, right, sitting on his table telling him that...
MATTHEWS: W., right.
MURPHY: Right, telling W. that there were attacks coming.
You don`t think there would have been hearings left and right, north and south all over Congress?
MATTHEWS: I think it`s bigger than Benghazi. Just guessing.
MURPHY: And this idea -- the one thing about that interview that Giuliani has right is that you do need to tell a positive story about America.
But if that`s what he thinks is important here, then he wasn`t at the Republican National Convention. It`s the Republican Party that`s out there bashing this country right now. It`s actually the Democratic Party that`s selling a story about the greatness of this country.
MATTHEWS: OK.
Take over -- it`s always harder to play defense when something bad happens. Even -- this is not the worst thing that`s happened to us, but it`s bad. It scares people. It`s unexpected and terrifying to some extent, because it happens right -- the nearest trash can could be blowing up. Who knows what the sense of this whole thing was?
How do you play defense if you`re Hillary Clinton, because you`re the party of power?
MURPHY: You don`t play defense. You go on offense.
You talk about what`s happening here right now. You are talking about individuals like this guy who was a naturalized U.S. citizen who became radicalized somewhere later in his life, right, and you present the argument to the American people that what matters now is preventing people who are already in this country from becoming radicalized and organized against us.
And Donald Trump`s rhetoric, which is essentially marginalizing Muslim populations, trying to isolate them, tell them that they`re not part of the whole, is exactly what ISIS recruiters want to hear.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
MURPHY: And so you go on the offense, if you`re Hillary Clinton, and you what she did today, essentially call Donald Trump an ISIS recruiter, right, which is what his rhetoric is doing.
It`s providing them the fodder they need to turn guys like this against...
MATTHEWS: You really believe that Trump -- I think it`s possible. Do you think Trump is heard in the Islamic world and among the Islamic community here, to the point where somebody would say, damn it, I have had it with this country, this guy Trump is against us, I`m going to go out and blow up something?
Do you think that is really something that would actually happen?
MURPHY: Well, I don`t know that a conversation happens that quick, from something Trump says to the decision to blow something up. But what you see in Europe is a greater level of threat because they have created a situation in which Muslims are essentially told that they`re not part of the greater whole.
MATTHEWS: Look at the bathing suit thing.
MURPHY: Yes.
And so here in the United States, we have been successful at incorporating...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: I agree. I would like to think that the melting pot still works.
MURPHY: And, listen, I don`t think it`s a long stretch, I don`t think it`s a long journey being told by the president of the United States, right, which is what Trump is applying to be, that Muslims are not American, from deciding to do harm against this country, when you have these radical...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: He just says you should say Islamic -- radical Islamic terrorism. He wants to use the phrase.
Why don`t you use the phrase? Just explain.
MURPHY: Listen, the idea that one term is going to change this debate is ridiculous. And the fact of the matter is, you don`t want to send the message that every member of the Islamic religion is an existing or potential there.
MATTHEWS: You think that says it?
MURPHY: Absolutely.
MATTHEWS: OK.
MURPHY: I think that risks communicating that message.
MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you so much, Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut.
We will be continuing to monitor developments in this story, but up next, plenty of politics to get to, including a demand that Republican elected officials get in line or kiss off their political futures.
Plus, President Obama is getting personal about the fight to succeed him.
And another big story tonight. Prosecutors -- this is one of our stories, one of MSNBC`s stories -- he says Governor Christie -- the prosecutors say now Governor Christie knew all about the closing of George Washington bridge when it was happening. He knew it at the time.
That is a big story tonight.
Also tonight, "The New York Times"` great Maureen Dowd is going to be here with us.
And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
Republican Party Chairman Reince Priebus said over the weekend that Donald Trump`s 2016 primary opponents who have not endorsed him so far in the general election could face consequences if they`re planning to run again in 2020, should Trump lose this November. Let`s watch Reince.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REINCE PRIEBUS, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Look, people who agreed to support the nominee that took part in our process, they used tools from the RNC. They agreed to support the nominee. They took part in our process. We`re a private party. We`re not a public entity.
Those people need to get on board. And if they`re thinking they`re going to run again some day, you know, I think that we`re going to evaluate the process of the nomination process, and I don`t think it`s going to be that easy for them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, the chairman`s remarks rubbed the top strategist of Ohio Governor John Kasich the wrong way.
John Weaver issued a statement saying -- quote -- "The idea of a greater purpose beyond one`s self may be alien to political party bosses like Reince Priebus, but is at the center of everything Governor Kasich does. He will not be bullied by a Kenosha political operative" -- that is what he means by Trump -- "unable to even look at even core principles or beliefs."
Anyway, Kasich, Texas Senator Ted Cruz and former Florida Governor Jeb Bush still have yet to endorse Donald Trump.
Let`s bring in the HARDBALL roundtable tonight.
Howard Fineman is global editor director of The Huffington Post. April Ryan is White House correspondent for American Urban Radio Networks. And Jonathan Capehart is an opinion writer for "The Washington Post."
Howard, is this because Republicans are now finally falling in line, and according to -- and he can get away this kind of push?
HOWARD FINEMAN, NBC CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: No, this is because the Trump campaign told Reince Priebus to do it.
MATTHEWS: So, they moved the Priebus question?
FINEMAN: They moved the Priebus question.
(LAUGHTER)
FINEMAN: I will use the pun that you were...
MATTHEWS: I had to sell that.
FINEMAN: No, because I contacted the Trump people and I said, what do you think about this? They said, well, we will just let the chairman speak on this.
And my sense of it is, look, Texas doesn`t matter. Whether Ted Cruz endorses doesn`t matter that much in Texas, where he`s strong. But Ohio and Florida are two states that Trump has to win. Now, the polls are showing that he`s close, if not ahead in those states, but they would like to have at least one smidgen of niceness from either Jeb Bush or John Kasich to give them a better chance.
And that`s why Priebus is out there. I think all of those people, Cruz, Kasich, and Bush, are going to ignore Reince Priebus. They don`t care what Reince Priebus says, but Reince Priebus had to do it, for the sake of the Trump campaign.
MATTHEWS: If -- just talk pure politics here. If you have a future in the Republican Party in presidential politics, if you are a Cruz, or you`re a Jeb, or you`re a Kasich, more importantly, is it the smart move to be out of the party this time through, even if they win a close one, win a close one, lose win a close one, lose a close one, lose a landslide? Is it better to be outside or inside the tent?
APRIL RYAN, AMERICAN URBAN RADIO NETWORKS: Even though his heart or their hearts are saying they don`t want to do it, it may be a bad move, because I have been told by too many people today in that camp that, if, indeed, Kasich wants to run, he is not going to get the support.
They`re saying, even if Trump wins, they are going to blackball those people who have not supported them.
MATTHEWS: Wow.
RYAN: And they are making -- the RNC and the Trump campaign, they are making definite strides, trying to talk to Kasich`s folks, trying to talk to Bush`s folks and Cruz`s folks to get them on board, and they`re not budging.
MATTHEWS: I think that`s true, if it`s close. If it`s a wipeout -- I don`t think it`s a wipeout right now, but if it`s a wipeout, it doesn`t matter who was with him or against him.
JONATHAN CAPEHART, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Right, but I think Jeb Bush and Governor Kasich are on different planets from Donald Trump.
(LAUGHTER)
CAPEHART: I mean, I remember, when we met with Governor Kasich, his whole tone, demeanor, the way he went about politics is completely foreign to the way Donald Trump has run his campaign.
So, to me, the idea that Governor Kasich or Governor Bush would endorse Donald Trump, would even -- what was it, a smidgen of niceness coming from them, if that happens, I don`t know, maybe I will do something on air.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: A lot of Democrats are on different planets than Bernie Sanders, too. They`re still...
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: That`s true, too.
MATTHEWS: The roundtable is staying with us.
And up next: President Obama says he would personally be insulted if African-American voters didn`t turn out for Hillary. Well, that`s going to be an interesting test of his greatness.
You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There`s no such thing as a vote that doesn`t matter. It all matters. And after we have achieved historic turnout in 2008 and 2012, especially in the African-American community, I will consider it a personal insult, an insult to my legacy if this community lets down its guard and fails to activate itself in this election. You want to give me a good sendoff? Go vote!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC ANCHOR: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
That was President Obama on fire over the weekend, at the annual dinner for the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation.
We`re back with the roundtable, Howard, April, and Jon.
You know, people tell me, if you look at -- to think about it, that script he had, it was a teleprompter, wasn`t that fiery. He got fiery. What`s going on?
JONATHAN CAPEHART, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, what he`s looking at is his legacy is on the line. It`s all in the words that he said, and we`re like 50 days away from --
MATTHEWS: Is he hearing bad news? Is he hearing low turnout?
CAPEHART: Well, I`ll leave that to April, but that fire that you saw, that`s not put on. That`s not theatric -- that is real.
But the point I was about to make is that, let`s say Donald Trump is, becomes president-elect. The last eight years, in this country`s presidency, would basically be like the second season of "Dallas", as if it never happened.
APRIL RYAN, AMERICAN URBAN RADIO NETWORK: Dallas.
CAPEHART: Because Trump would just undo everything that he worked on.
RYAN: The bottom line --
MATTHEWS: Why`d he do it this weekend? He wasn`t talking like that two weeks ago or a week ago?
RYAN: I don`t think that`s true. The president has been fiery, but this was his -- this was the base. And I`m going to say, I was there Saturday night. And really, the key piece to me is after the dinner Saturday night.
I was walking -- I was watching the people clean up. And many of the congressional leaders came to me, April, you`ve got a good sense, what do you think?
I have one congressional leader that says, I don`t know, he was very upset. He was scared. The president knows intrinsically, he knows what is going on. He knows that a lot of African-Americans are not necessarily as galvanized. His base, the people --
MATTHEWS: So did he do the right thing or not?
RYAN: Yes, it was the right thing. But it`s beyond Saturday night, what he needs to do. And Hillary Clinton -- Hillary Clinton is not her husband who was charismatic and who can get out there and could make you just sit in awe. He was one of the greatest speakers of our time. Barack Obama is one of the greatest speakers of our time, and Michelle Obama.
What needs to happen is, is that Hillary Clinton needs to have standing with her, and the president may have to leave the White House a little more, standing with her to make him know, make the Americans know that he is on the ballot. By standing --
MATTHEWS: How do you transfer charisma?
RYAN: You can`t.
CAPEHART: You stand there.
HOWARD FINEMAN, THE HUFFINGTON POST: Like, very quickly, he was speaking to the Congressional Black Caucus, which is the base, and it`s very important. But the problem for Hillary Clinton is not the people that the Congressional Black Caucus talk to, because they`re the establishment. They`re members of Congress. They`re the establishment.
RYAN: Forty-six.
FINEMAN: It`s the young kids.
RYAN: The millennials.
FINEMAN: The millennials, white, black, brown. That`s where Hillary`s crisis is and those are the people --
RYAN: And she needs Bernie Sanders.
MATTHEWS: And Elizabeth Warren, too.
RYAN: Yes.
MATTHEWS: Thank you, Howard Fineman. Thank you, April Ryan. Great roundtable. Jonathan, thank you, sir.
Up next, prosecutors in the Bridgegate trial say New Jersey Governor Chris Christie knew about -- key phrase -- knew about the plot to shut down traffic lanes to the George Washington Bridge, even though he denied it for years. And that`s coming up. This is hot stuff.
And this is a HARDBALL story, by the way. This network has been big on this. And this is the place for politics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Well, opening statements began today in the Bridgegate trial of two former top aides to New Jersey Governor Chris Christie. And today for the first time, a federal prosecutor told jurors that Governor Christie was told about a plan to close those traffic lanes, leading to the George Washington Bridge, as it was happening.
And he knew about it. Something the governor has denied for years.
MSNBC`s Steve Kornacki is with us with more. Steve, did this surprise you? You`re an expert on this case, that the governor has been named by the prosecutor.
STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, here`s the thing. The interesting thing is this David Wildstein, who was one of the Christie appointees, who has now pleaded guilty and he is the star witness. He is going to be the government`s star witness.
He had said through his lawyer, two years ago, that evidence exists that Christie knew about the closures, as they were happening. His lawyers said that. Federal prosecutors had never said whether they believed it, whether they accepted it, whether it would be part of their case.
But now, in bringing Wildstein out as their star witness and making this explicit statement today in the opening statements, they said that, look, Wildstein was basically telling the governor, look, hey, there`s this mayor who wouldn`t endorse your re-election campaign.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
KORNACKI: The traffic is piled up in his town. He`s calling us, trying to solve it. We`re not answering his calls. He`s not getting his calls returned. They`re basically saying in the opening states that Wildstein was laying this out, was bragging about it to Chris Christie, at Ground Zero, on 9/11 in 2013, which is just as the lane closures were happening.
So, it confirms what a lot of people expected. This was sort of introduced by Wildstein`s lawyer a while ago. Now we know the feds believe it and they`re going with it.
MATTHEWS: Yes. Well, this is a holy cow moment, for someone not like you, but almost like you, I`ve been fascinated by this trial. And as a person who`s worked in politics, I never believed that the staffers were pushing something as grand as this effort to whack all those mayors without leadership from the top. It doesn`t sound like anything I know. The fish rots from the head.
Thank you very much, Steve Kornacki.
KORNACKI: Sure.
MATTHEWS: We`ll be right back with the great Maureen Dowd.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: In election season, you`ll often hear crazy stuff. But I got to say, this year, we have been hearing a little more crazy than usual.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: We`re back.
That was President Obama in Philadelphia. He`s witnessed a slew of crazy stuff in the frenzy for most of the show.
Actually, Maureen Dowd, by the way, the Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist for the "New York Times" has just published her third book "The Year of Voting Dangerously." Just this week, when it came out, the columnist became part of the show when Donald Trump tweeted, Wacky Maureen Dowd, quote, "who hardly knows me makes things up that I never said for her boring interviews and column. A neurotic dope."
Well, that`s what he says. He couldn`t be more wrong.
MAUREEN DOWD, NEW YORK TIMES: Thanks --
MATTHEWS: You know what? He`s just jealous.
Joining me right now is the author Maureen Dowd. He can`t write as well as you, and you are the best writer for "The New York Times." Everybody knows that. You delight me when I pick up "The New York Times". I go looking for the life, the Irish part, the exciting part, the color.
And I`m always wondering about you and who you`ve sort of focused on that day. Now Trump, when you write a column, this is not giving anything away. When you write a column, you have a little shot against him, do you imagine him reading that the next morning and going, ugh? Can you imagine that? Because you know he does.
DOWD: Well, I was very disturbed that he didn`t give more thought to my nickname because he`s recycling it. He gave Mika Brzezinski and Megyn Kelly wacky and crazy and neurotic.
MATTHEWS: Yes, same old, same old.
DOWD: So I would have hoped at least when W. gave me a nickname, it was "Cobra", which had a sort of reptilian glamour to it.
MATTHEWS: Now, this interesting. You know, what you, have you figured him out yet? Because everybody in America is trying to figure out. There`s some things people hate about him, some they`re appalled by, I should say. And then there`s people, the third or fourth or even maybe sometimes low 40s of the country that want what he offers.
Have you figured him out, what his appeals is?
DOWD: Well, I think that`s why I wanted to write the book, because I have covered them since the `90s, Hillary and Trump. One of the weird things about it is they are two of the most famous people on the planet, and yet nobody seems to really know them.
Hillary, it`s reintroducing herself after the pneumonia as someone who likes women and children and we`re supposed to see the real Hillary now. There`s a memo in the book where her aides we are telling her to do that 25 years ago.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
DOWD: So, every week, they are reintroducing the real Hillary.
And with Trump, we don`t know if he`s the bling king, you know, white rapper, crazy, New York.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Why is he catnip for the media? Why is he irresistible to watch? Sometimes.
DOWD: Because as Howard Fineman said, you know, the mask is down, like we`re seeing behind the scenes. It`s like "The Wizard of Oz." We`re seeing a lot --
MATTHEWS: He says, pay attention to the man behind the curtain.
DOWD: Right, exactly.
MATTHEWS: You`re a hell of a writer, Maureen Dowd.
DOWD: Thank you.
MATTHEWS: A credit to your Irish race. You really are. You`re the best. You are the best.
This is going to be fun. Nothing sees it in writing, you know books of columns are great because you get to read one or two a night and go to sleep. And you don`t feel guilty, right? You knock them off.
DOWD: There`s a two essay about my 30 years with the Bush family.
MATTHEWS: Who is your favorite Bush?
DOWD: Poppy Bush.
MATTHEWS: I think most people agree with that. The older they get, the more acceptable. Anyway, I do like him. I`m not a big W. fan.
The book is called "The Year of Voting Dangerously". Thank you, Maureen Dowd.
When we return, my election diary for September 19th, 50 days before election.
You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Election diary, September 19th, 2016.
The week before the first presidential debate, we suddenly get hit with a new fact. Terrorism has once again struck New York. The country`s chief city, its media capital or as John Lennon once called it, "the consciousness of the center of the universe." To paraphrase the song, if you want to make noise, you make it there. If you want to express your anger to America, you do it in New York -- the Big Apple, metropolis, Gotham.
And here we are with a debate away from the biggest media event of the times with the country`s media capital stirred by terrorism in its midst. So I expect what happened over the weekend will be the "can`t ignore" topic on which we`ll begin next week. If the moderator or Hillary Clinton don`t raise the issue, Donald Trump sure will. The reason: the man knows the moment, senses the zeitgeist.
Hillary Clinton will have done her home work. She will be better prepared on the issues, sounder on the fact. She will be the A student, a straight A student at that.
Donald Trump will be more unpredictable. He will be ready with unpredictability. For him, doing homework will be to find his way to the surprising assault, the surprising counterattack, whatever line of attack opens up to him.
I expect he will position himself on the side of change, for and simple, putting Hillary on the site of defending the way things are. He will lead her on that path and lock her into a trap that lies at the end of it. Why do I think he will be the predator, the aggressor?
One central reason: he will be behind in the polls. His current surge will have exhausted itself. He will know the trend of election is a lack of a trend. The president or candidate ahead will be the one who stays ahead unless something changes things.
So, hje will be the one to watch. The guy still behind, seeing that he will in all likelihood stay behind, unless he pulls something -- something that captures the moment next Monday night, that exploits the country`s current mood of uneasiness that captures the spirit of the times to his advantage to allow him to declare, "You`re fired, Hillary".
I expect Hillary Clinton to be prepared for this moment, the one in which Donald Trump will set his heart. I expect she will be there. Her eyes on him, to face down the man she must defeat head to head, face to face, together in this same moment with 100 million people watching.
That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.
"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.
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