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Hardball with Chris Matthews, Transcript 9/13/2016

Guests: Susan Page, Jennifer Granholm, Joe Conason, Ruth Marcus, John Brabender, Stephanie Schriock

Show: HARDBALL Date: September 13, 2016 Guest: Susan Page, Jennifer Granholm, Joe Conason, Ruth Marcus, John Brabender, Stephanie Schriock

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: He's back!

Let's play HARDBALL!

Good evening. I'm Chris Matthews in Washington.

Did you catch President Obama today? If you didn't, you missed the LeMans start of what could be the wildest barnstorming presidential campaign ever, certainly one by an incumbent and certainly a campaign for someone else.

Barack Obama made it clear today that it is personal. He's in the race to succeed him -- in the race to succeed him because he passionately wants Hillary Clinton to win and fanatically wants Donald Trump to lose, lose humiliatingly, lose in such a mortifying way that he'll disappear from the country's public life.

In a clear sign the president knows how to do it, he chose Pennsylvania today as the place he would plant his stake in Donald Trump's heart, knowing that Trump knows he needs Pennsylvania. He went there today in the 80-degree heat to rouse Philadelphians in the same way he did in getting himself elected in '08 and '12.

He wants to use his presidency now to demolish the man who refuses to retract his celebrated charge that Barack Obama isn't a legitimate president, that he somehow snuck into the country, assumed an identity, and used affirmative action to get his way through Columbia University, Harvard Law and into the White House.

Well, Donald Trump should have been more careful in who he made as an enemy. This one's coming back for payback.

For a second straight day, by the way, Hillary Clinton was off the trail recovering from pneumonia, but we got word late today, just now, in fact, that she will resume campaigning on Thursday.

Well, today, the president showed why many consider him to be the Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton's best surrogate out there. The president called Clinton tough, prepared, and fit to be commander-in-chief. Here he is in Philly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Can I just say I am really into electing Hillary Clinton!

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: Like, I -- I -- this is not me going through the motions here. I really, really, really want to elect Hillary Clinton.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: I believe there has never been a man or a woman more qualified than Hillary Clinton to serve as our president!

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, it was a gorgeous day in the city which is now the Global Heritage City right now of this country. As I said, President Obama seemed just fired up, in fact, more fired up going after Clinton's Republican opponent, Donald Trump. He said Trump's vision of the country is dark and pessimistic. He called Trump out for hiding -- I love this phrase -- hiding his tax returns, and he said Trump isn't fit to be commander-in-chief.

Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I keep on reading this analysis that, well, you know, Trump's got support from, like, working folks. Really? This guy who spent 70 years on this earth showing no concern for working people? I mean, he wasn't going to let you on his golf course!

(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: He wasn't going to let you buy in his condo. And now suddenly, this guy's going to be your champion?

One candidate's family foundation has saved countless lives around the world. The other candidate's foundation took money other people gave to his charity and then bought a 6-foot-tall painting of himself!

(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: I mean, I -- I -- you know, he -- I -- I -- he had the taste not to go for the 10-foot version.

He's not offering any real policies or plans, just offering division and offering fear. And he's betting that if he scares enough people, he might scare up enough votes to win this election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: There are words in that speech that are magical to the political ear. One was, He's hiding his tax returns -- hiding them, not showing to us, hiding them. And the second was, This man of the people, Donald Trump, won't let you even on his golf course.

Anyway, Secretary Clinton could benefit, of course, from the president's help today. Just as polls show the race between her and Trump tightening, President Obama is enjoying some of his best approval ratings ever.

Catch this. In the brand-new "Washington Post"/ABC poll out this week shows, President Obama sits at 58 percent approval. Nobody's got numbers like that but him. And in the NBC/"Wall Street Journal" poll last month, he has the support of 96 percent of African-Americans -- that's not a big surprise -- 90 percent of Democrats, nearly 60 percent of young people.

Well, can the president help Clinton win this race? We'll see. Joining me right now is former governor of Pennsylvania Ed Rendell -- he's an NBC News political analyst -- Howard Fineman, global editorial director for the HuffingtonPost and NBC political analyst. And with me here in Washington, Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for "USA Today."

So we've loaded up our ranks, Governor, with Pennsylvanians who know this state.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: I have to tell you, we got a guy so excited, he's in after- glow from the Steelers last night.

HOWARD FINEMAN, HUFFINGTON POST GLOBAL EDITORIAL DIR., MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes!

MATTHEWS: He and his son, Nick, went up to FedEx field, but the fact is, the Steelers did play a hell of a game.

FINEMAN: Yes, they did.

MATTHEWS: There's no doubt about it. And I know the governor likes the Steelers almost as much as he likes the Eagles.

Governor, Republicans have this sort of weird sense -- I don't know what you call it, "heartbreak hill" might be a good phrase for Pennsylvania. They always think they can win it, and they don't. What's going on with their -- why is their thinking so wrong that they think they can knock off this guy, win the election for president by winning Pennsylvania?

ED RENDELL (D), FMR. PA GOV., MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, because in non-presidential years, the Democratic registration edge, which is over 900,000 -- that edge dissipates because Democrats don't turn out in non- presidential years. I was the exception because I was the home town guy when I ran.

But in presidential years, the turnout is extraordinarily good, and President Obama can jack that turnout up better than anybody. I want to refer you to 2010, Chris, when there was a Senate election between Pat Toomey and Joe Sestak. The president came into Philadelphia two times, Michelle came in once, and their message was, They're out to get me.

And he took that message into the city, into different areas of the city. And even though it was a Republican wave year, Sestak lost by a little less than 2 points. And the turnout -- Pat Toomey told me when he saw the turnout in Philadelphia, he thought he'd lost.

So no one can generate better turnout like the president. He is the best. He is the turner-outer in chief.

MATTHEWS: OK. Howard, it's personal with this guy.

FINEMAN: Right.

MATTHEWS: I mean, I hope you agree with me. I think he wants to beat Trump almost more than he wants Hillary Clinton to be his successor. He wants this guy disgraced and humiliated. He wants him out of there after what he did to him.

FINEMAN: Well, Chris, a couple things. First of all, I've been covering this a long time, covering presidential politics, and I don't remember an outgoing sitting president campaigning this hard, this early. I think it's almost unprecedented, number one.

MATTHEWS: I agree.

FINEMAN: Number two, the language that President Obama used today in Philly -- that's tough language. That's political, you know, dynamite. And it's still only September. I mean, and he's already got the pedal to the metal. That's number two.

Number three, Philadelphia is the key to Pennsylvania because, in part, as the governor knows, western Pennsylvania has been trending more Republican. And the counties around Pittsburgh have become more Republican. They're sort of part of Appalachia, not the East Coast.

So Trump's going to get his votes out in the western part of the state, and it's crucial for the president to turn out those people that you talked about, African-Americans, registered Democrats, and most important, I think, young people of all colors, White, African-American, Hispanic, et cetera. They've got to turn out to make sure that Pennsylvania remains "heartbreak hill" for the Republicans.

MATTHEWS: You know, it's interesting. We have an incumbent Democratic president who's very popular right now. It's hard to believe we're saying a popular president after all he's been through, but he is, 58 percent the latest -- I can't think of a popular president -- if you go back to Eisenhower, he campaigned very hard for Nixon at the very end.

But Nixon was stupid enough not to bring him in earlier, but he campaigned like -- he'd come into Philly, get a half million, million people on a Wednesday lunchtime. Even in New York, he'd get big crowds.

But this time, we have a popular president who seems to really like the person he's campaigning for. Unlike -- and Bill Clinton and Al Gore had that weird conflicted relationship there.

SUSAN PAGE, "USA TODAY": Well, first of all, he's a popular president so he can do the candidate some good. And the candidate also likes him. I mean, it goes two ways. Look at Al Gore. He didn't want Bill Clinton campaigning for him. John McCain -- George W. Bush at that point was politically toxic. Ronald Reagan had a complicated relationship with George...

MATTHEWS: But he got Pennsylvania for George, Sr.

PAGE: So he did some campaigning for him, but it was not the kind of campaigning that we saw today by Barack Obama or that we'll see through the month of October.

MATTHEWS: Obama was gleeful today.

PAGE: And you know what? He was joyful. It was like, Why don't we - - it's like, we don't see that on the campaign stump, I think, with either of the candidates we've got. They don't seem happy to be there.

MATTHEWS: Yes, I know.

PAGE: He seemed happy to be there.

MATTHEWS: Governor, you're the expert at this because you campaigned like this. You're the happy warrior. By the way, you were the best mayor the city ever had.

Pennsylvania's a weird state. Explain Pennsylvania to the person who doesn't get it because I find it fascinating. You can be in three quarters of the state and think you're in Alabama Republican-wise, in terms of geography, but then you go to Pittsburgh, and especially to Philly and the 'burbs around it, and you realize you're sort of more in Jersey or New York. You're in a different state.

RENDELL: It is. It's too separate and distinct states, urban and suburban versus rural. And there's a lot of rural area. Pennsylvania is a very big state, biggest state east of the Mississippi, in area, and six different TV markets.

But the key -- Howard's right about turnout in Philadelphia. That's key number one. But key number two for Democrats to carry the state is to win the suburbs by significant numbers. Barack Obama in 2012 carried the four suburban counties, which, as you know, Chris, used to be Republican territory. He carried it by a margin of 120,000.

Hillary Clinton is on a pace to carry it by double and maybe even triple that, if the polls are correct. If she carries the suburbs by 250, the city by anywhere near what Barack Obama carried it, she's going to come out of the five counties three quarters of a million votes up, and there just aren't enough votes in the rest of the state to make it up.

MATTHEWS: Yes. And that's a third of the state. That's a third of the electorate. That's 11 in 22 of the burbs.

RENDELL: Right.

MATTHEWS: That's a third of the state.

Howard, let's take a look at Pennsylvania and the country. My argument at the end of the show -- I might as well give it away now -- Lee Atwater, who was one tough political operative -- he worked for the Bushes and Reagan -- he said the best way to win a campaign, if he can do it, is to find the state that the other side knows they desperately need to win, and then early on, yank it away from them, take their heart out early, break their spirit, like Atwater did it with Michigan against the Democrats.

FINEMAN: Right.

MATTHEWS: If they take Pennsylvania away from Trump, doesn't he know he's going to lose?

FINEMAN: I think the mathematics, Chris, don't work because Pennsylvania has enough of Appalachia in it, enough of those rural areas that the governor's talking about, and enough of the counties around Pittsburgh -- there are some suburban and exurban counties around Pittsburgh -- Washington County, Fayette County -- that are becoming more Republican.

MATTHEWS: Well, I know that.

FINEMAN: OK. So Trump -- Trump has to win every one of those votes because he's basically maximizing white conservative rural turnout and exurban turnout. He's got to get that maximum to have a chance at Pennsylvania.

And also, the Electoral College mathematics, I don't think, any way you cut it, don't work out without Pennsylvania.

MATTHEWS: (INAUDIBLE)

FINEMAN: I don't see how Trump can win it without PA.

MATTHEWS: I think everybody knows the same scorecard, Susan.

FINEMAN: Right.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, take this one. President Obama today mocked Donald Trump -- his sarcasm today was so rich. He knocked Trump for his apparent bromance with Vladimir Putin, his role modeling of the guy. It was rich stuff today from Obama. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: You've got the Donald, who just last week went on Russian state television to talk down our military and to curry favor with Vladimir Putin!

(BOOS)

OBAMA: He loves this guy! Loves this guy. And when they interview and ask him, Well, why do you support this guy? He's a strong guy. Look, he's got an 82 percent poll rating.

Well, yes, Saddam Hussein had a 90 percent poll rating!

(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: I mean, if you control the media and you've taken away everybody's civil liberties and you jail dissidents, that's what happens!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: You know, Susan, everybody -- I watched all the faces, like we all do in crowds -- the faces -- those people were having a great time, and they completely got all his shots. They completely -- there was no communication problem. They got the humiliation, the ridicule he was throwing at Trump.

PAGE: You know what's the best way to make a point, to put the knife into somebody? It's with a little bit of humor...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

PAGE: which is what he was doing there by ridiculing the notion that you would have praised...

MATTHEWS: The irony.

PAGE: The irony, yes. And it's, like, and everybody -- and as you say, everybody understood it. And rather than a frontal assault about, Well, you know, Vladimir Putin is a despot, to talk about it that way, it's just -- it engages the crowd. It makes the point. It's what makes politics fun.

MATTHEWS: You know, Governor, I remember you campaigning and your connection with people. And this guy's ability to get the Philadelphia attitude, almost. The attitude -- come on! This is a joke! This guy -- I mean, the rich ridicule that everybody -- I mean, like Eagles fans, for example, they don't like the other side, either, much.

Your thoughts. Is this going to work with some of the Republicans up there? Because he was saying today a lot of stuff like, the president was, like, this isn't the party of Lincoln. This isn't the party of Reagan. This is something outrageous, and basically, you moderate folks watching on television should be thinking about voting for Hillary.

RENDELL: Yes, I think so, Chris. I think that's going to work for suburban Republicans, who are essentially moderate.

I think the president actually laid off a little bit. I thought what Donald Trump said Friday night was the single most frightening thing he's said on the campaign trail, that when the Iranian boats circled our naval ships when they strayed into Iranian waters and they made derisive gestures towards our sailors, that if he was president, we'd blow them out of the water.

Well, we're going to start a potential world war because someone made gestures to us? Good Lord! He's unhinged! He's unhinged!

FINEMAN: Yes, I think, Chris -- I think that all the people in Pennsylvania who would be impressed by that threat -- and I know who those people are -- they're already voting for Donald Trump. I think the governor...

RENDELL: Right!

FINEMAN: The governor's point is partly that you've got these suburbanites, and including a lot of women, you know, who are looking at that, and you know, they don't find that amusing.

MATTHEWS: I know.

FINEMAN: They don't find the threat amusing.

MATTHEWS: Like the Robert de Niro character in "Taxi Driver."

FINEMAN: Exactly.

MATTHEWS: You talking to me! You talking to me!

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: That's all we need is a president like that, with a hair trigger.

Thank you, Governor Rendell. Thank you, Howard Fineman. Good luck with those Steelers. Hell of a game last night.

FINEMAN: Thank you. Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Who's that running back? Williams? Unbelievable!

FINEMAN: Deangelo Williams (ph). He's only number two, Chris. Wait until we get Le'veon Bell (ph) back, baby.

MATTHEWS: OK, baby.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: Thank you very much...

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: (INAUDIBLE) shakeup out there!

Anyway, coming up, Donald Trump's trying to make Hillary Clinton pay for her "basket of deplorables" comment, but the Clinton campaign says the issue's a winner for them. That's an interesting development there. Can Trump really claim the high ground for what Hillary said? Maybe not. That fight's ahead.

Plus, we don't see much of Bill Clinton these days. What's Big Bill up to? Journalist Joe Conason spent a lots of time with the former president for Conason's brand-new book, "Man of the World." It's all about Clinton. And Conason's with us tonight.

And Donald Trump's trying to take advantage of Hillary Clinton's absence from the campaign trail these days. He's up in Pennsylvania this hour with his daughter, Ivanka, pushing a plan to give families a tax break for child care expenses. We'll keep an eye on that and whether Trump's going to speak during our hour.

Finally tonight, my "Election Diary" on where the campaign stands right now after what happened today in Philly.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Donald Trump yesterday promised to release very specific numbers from a recent physical he had. Well, today, television host Dr. Oz said that results or some results from that physical will be revealed on his show this Thursday when Trump appears there.

But Dr. Oz made clear today it was up to Trump what he chooses to reveal during that program. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What if there's some embarrassing things on there? I bet you won't release them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it's still going to be his decision.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's his decision. It's -- you know, I -- look, the metaphor for me is this is a doctor's office, the studio. So I'm not going to ask him questions he doesn't want to have answered, and I also don't want to talk about anybody else. We're not going to be talking about Secretary Clinton, for sure. And I don't want to talk about things that are outside the health purview.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: While my opponent slanders you as deplorable and irredeemable, I call you hard-working American patriots who love your country and want a better future for all of our people.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: I love the gestures he uses. They're like Jesus' gestures in the religious books.

Anyway, welcome -- inappropriately, of course.

Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was Donald Trump today continuing his line of attack on Hillary Clinton for her remark this Friday, this past Friday, that half his supporters are -- quote -- "a basket of deplorables."

Well, Trump has called her remark the biggest mistake of the political season. But while Clinton has said she regrets characterizing half of Trump's supporters -- she didn't like the percentage -- as deplorable, some in the Clinton campaign now say that they welcome this debate.

Deputy press secretary Jesse Ferguson, reached by NBC News today, said: "The Trump campaign is seemingly inviting a debate about the extent to which their campaign has promoted and fueled an alt-right hate movement in this country that many Americans do find deplorable, as we saw Monday night when their V.P. nominee refused to call David Duke deplorable."

Anyway, the Trump campaign's new strategy has started to backfire. That's according to the Clinton administration -- Clinton campaign.

Press secretary Brian Fallon also said, "Ever since Clinton expressed regret," in other words, it's too many to say half, "Trump has been fighting on our turf," their turf, the Clintons'.

As Ferguson mentioned, however, Trump's running mate, Mike Pence, has declined to use the word deplorable in rejecting -- even though he rejected David Duke, he wouldn't use Hillary Clinton's term, deplorable, for whatever ran.

Anyway, Trump campaign manage Kellyanne Conway today said on CNN that Pence should have called Duke deplorable, if only to avoid negative headlines. She's always the sharpie politically.

However, Pence said later today that he would not validate the language Clinton used, validate being his word.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R-IN), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yesterday, I was asked a question about that. And I repeated that again. And the simple fact is that I'm not in the name-calling business.

But I'm also not going to validate the language that Hillary Clinton used to describe the American people. Hillary Clinton wasn't talking about that bad man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, I'm joined right now by MSNBC political analyst Robert Costa of "The Washington Post." He's with us now.

Robert, just give us the reportage on this thing -- reportage, rather.

What is -- who's going to win? Whose turn -- my theory is, topic decides who wins. No matter what the argument is, if you're on certain topics, it decides who wins. What's your view on this one, racism, all the other isms that Hillary Clinton mentioned on Friday and how many Trump people meet the description?

ROBERT COSTA, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Chris, talking to Clinton allies, Clinton advisers, there's a sense that that the more they can bring the alternative right into the national debate, Clinton's on good footing. And they want to have that conversation in these final seven to eight weeks of the campaign.

But the other school of thought is, when you talk to the Trump people, they think this reinforces Trump's pitch as some kind of anti-establishment force in American politics, us vs. them, almost a Spiro Agnew, Richard Nixon-type vibe going on with the Trump argument.

MATTHEWS: Who's right?

COSTA: I think, right now...

MATTHEWS: Who's most convinced they're right? I want to ask you a fair reporter's question. From talking to these people, who's the most cocksure that talking about deplorables and who called who deplorable is a victory for which side?

COSTA: It depends how the suburban voters swing.

That's where this is all targeted. If you're in North Carolina in that Research Triangle, if you're in Ohio or Pennsylvania, how do you hear this kind of debate? When you hear deplorables, does it scare you away from the Trump campaign? Do you get skittish? Or does it make Hillary Clinton, the secretary's campaign feel like something that you can't be part of?

MATTHEWS: Yes. Well, thank you much, Robert Costa. Great reporting. We're always watching you, sir.

The Clinton campaign has launched a counteroffensive, as I said, in the wake of Trump's attacks. Let's watch how Tim Kaine today cited Pence's, Governor Pence's comments about David Duke to defend his running mate. Here's Kaine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA-), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Just in the last couple of days, Trump has been going after Hillary because she gave a speech calling out deplorable comments.

You know, she advanced the notion that if you're chumming around with the head of the Ku Klux Klan or people who have that title, that's deplorable. You have to call that out.

If you can't call it out and you stand back and you're silent around it, you're enabling it to grow. You're enabling it to become more powerful.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

KAINE: We want to be a nation of the positive virtues, not the dark emotions and not the negative virtues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, I'm joined right now by MSNBC political analyst Michael Steele, former chair of the RNC, the Republican National Committee, as well as former Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm, who is a senior adviser to the pro-Hillary Clinton group, the super PAC, Correct the Record.

You first, Governor. Who's winning on this one? Because it is the turf -- if you're a progressive, you don't like -- you especially want to go after the alt-right.

JENNIFER GRANHOLM (D), FORMER MICHIGAN GOVERNOR: So, the president today suggested this defines the character of a nation.

This is really a debate about who we are. So, if 87 percent of Trump's supporters believe that Muslims should be banned from this country, which they do, if 65 percent...

MATTHEWS: And a lot of them think Obama's a Muslim.

GRANHOLM: Right. Sixty-five percent think that Obama is a Muslim.

MATTHEWS: And should be banned.

(CROSSTALK)

GRANHOLM: And 59 percent believe that he was not born in this country.

And 50 percent believe that blacks and immigrants are more prone to criminality. That, that -- the strain that has been...

MATTHEWS: You mean by their nature. They're bent towards crime.

GRANHOLM: Right, bent toward crime, right...

MATTHEWS: Yes. Right.

GRANHOLM: ... by virtue of being African-American or an immigrant.

The point is that he has given this movement some voice, some life, and that, to me, is really -- and, to her, is a fundamental issue of who we are, because that's not America. And to say that's not acceptable is really important.

MATTHEWS: Michael, your views?

MICHAEL STEELE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: No, I think, from a political standpoint, this is advantage Trump, because I think it's a reflection of a lot of -- it's not just Republicans, although they like to cite those polls.

I would say this is a broad swathe of Americans who have this view. Again, when the national poll was taken over the summer, 56 percent of American people, white, black, Hispanic, Republican, Democrat, said that Islam was not compatible with American values.

MATTHEWS: Right.

STEELE: So there is this undercurrent that has that has attached itself to some degree to the campaign.

I think when it comes to the David Dukes of the world, the campaign has certainly recently been much more emphatic about it, but I think -- against it. But I think the reality still plays to the undercard here that this is a topic that still resonates with a lot of people.

When you give a context with respect to how you talk to the American people about this, and when you start blaming them and laying this out at their footsteps...

(CROSSTALK)

GRANHOLM: Do you think -- you would say David Duke is deplorable.

STEELE: I would say David Duke is...

GRANHOLM: Deplorable.

STEELE: ... just un-America, is un-American.

GRANHOLM: But why wouldn't you use that word?

MATTHEWS: Because it's Hillary's word.

STEELE: Because it's Hillary's word.

GRANHOLM: Would you say that Hillary is deplorable?

STEELE: I would use something far worse that I can't say on national television.

MATTHEWS: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Let's talk about this one.

This is what I find not mystifying, but -- I don't know. This country had 250 years of slavery, legalized slavery...

STEELE: Yes.

MATTHEWS: ... before we have -- even we had a country, we had slavery. We had 150 years of -- or 100 years of Jim Crow.

We had whatever's been since, which hasn't been exactly perfect on racial stuff.

STEELE: Right.

MATTHEWS: And now we have a party -- two parties arguing over who's better on race?

It just strikes me as odd that one party says, we're simon-pure perfect, the other side's no damned good. And I wonder about that. I don't think it's clear. I don't think it's true. I don't think people are that simple.

STEELE: Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: And I certainly don't think partisan label defines your views about humanity.

STEELE: Absolutely right.

And on all three of those points, you are spot on, because this type of discussion becomes a sidebar discussion, because it doesn't go to what you actually articulated at the very beginning, the underlying current of who we are as American citizens.

When you start -- when pull it into the political, then it becomes a partisan discussion.

GRANHOLM: But that's -- the whole point is that this is not about the Republican Party.

(CROSSTALK)

GRANHOLM: It's not about the Republican Party. There is a slice of Trump voters that go way beyond what the Republican Party would ever stand for, the party of Lincoln. So, that's her point.

STEELE: So, let me ask you -- so ,let me ask you, Governor, how, then, do -- should I react as a black man running for the United States Senate in 2006 when I'm called an Uncle Tom by a sitting member of the state legislature, who's a Democrat, in my state, a sitting member of the United States Congress?

GRANHOLM: But that's my point.

STEELE: Well, this is my point. This is my point.

You want to sit there and slide this off into one side of the political pie. What I'm saying is, this speaks to a broader problem that we have in this country. And when you bring it into the political context, you lose sight of the reality that we all deal with every day.

I don't look at this -- when Hillary Clinton said, I didn't put it in political context, I said, you're now talking about a broad swathe of the American people. And that's going to be the problem, not whether it's Republican or Democrat.

GRANHOLM: Listen, I don't disagree with you at all. My point is saying that this swathe, whatever that is, that unacceptable swathe, you could say they're Democrats, independents, or Republicans, but they have attached themselves to Donald Trump. And that's the problem, is that he has..

MATTHEWS: Should Hillary Clinton have said, the candidate, that there's a basket -- I don't even like the word basket -- of people? It's like binders of women. Remember that one?

GRANHOLM: Right. I remember that.

MATTHEWS: A basket of deplorables, half -- whatever the percentage she said she meant to say, she said half. Is that fair?

GRANHOLM: No. No. And she said -- she came back and said...

MATTHEWS: Well, if she said a quarter, is that fair?

GRANHOLM: No. I mean, I don't...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Why is she putting a number on it?

GRANHOLM: Before, she had previously there are two groups, and not putting a number on it. But the point is -- and she apologized for that.

MATTHEWS: Do you think it had anything to do with her health?

GRANHOLM: No.

MATTHEWS: Because they put that in the paper today. Somebody put it out that it was a bad weekend for -- she -- in other words, if she had taken a rest...

(CROSSTALK)

GRANHOLM: No, Chris. She would be the last person to use health to excuse that. No, no, no.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I don't know. Who knows, by the way?

GRANHOLM: No, she had previously said two groups. And she misspoke, and she apologized, but the point being...

MATTHEWS: If she had said a fifth, if she had said a fifth...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: But the very fact they're using the phrase basket of deplorables, I wonder whether the phrase itself is troubling to a lot of people.

(CROSSTALK)

STEELE: It is troubling, because even when you say two groups, I don't care how you cut it. That's 50 percent.

GRANHOLM: No, that's not.

STEELE: Well, it is. If I say, there are two groups that support you, that means...

(CROSSTALK)

GRANHOLM: How big are they, right?

STEELE: Well, but I'm just saying...

(CROSSTALK)

GRANHOLM: The point is that -- the point is that this...

STEELE: Yes.

MATTHEWS: Yes, OK.

GRANHOLM: ... this strain of thought is Trump's strain of thought. And that's...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I have been trying to figure it out.

Governor and Mike, I have trying to figure out -- Governor as well, Lieutenant Governor -- I have been trying to figure out if there's an alternative. Like, everything, I always try to figure. Suppose a Republican said this about a Democrat.

And I keep thinking, what would be the worst thing to say about Democrats? Half that party are socialists. I go, wait a minute, that's not so bad. Democrats wouldn't be offended by that. So I'm not sure what you can call people on the left. What would you say?

What would be deplorables on the left to you? What would you say a bunch of Democrats are deplorables? What would you mean?

(CROSSTALK)

STEELE: I would think that, from my perspective...

GRANHOLM: Please be careful.

STEELE: No, I'm -- be careful.

MATTHEWS: Lefties?

(LAUGHTER)

STEELE: No, I would just say, no, I think we tend to look at this thing through just one lens. And my argument would be that this cuts on both sides.

You don't sit there and act like there aren't racist people on the Democratic side.

GRANHOLM: Absolutely. And I agree with you on that.

STEELE: That's the bigger part.

(CROSSTALK)

GRANHOLM: I agree with you on that. But the "Washington Post" poll today said 60 percent of Americans think that Trump is -- not a bigot. What did they say? Sixty percent believe that he is...

MATTHEWS: Is biased.

GRANHOLM: He's biased. That's right, biased against African- Americans and women.

MATTHEWS: You know what? I still got a problem with Trump on that, on -- not on his personal view of people, which I don't know what that is, but why he calls the first African-American president some sort of usurper.

GRANHOLM: Right. Right.

MATTHEWS: He's got to get past that before Election Day. And if that doesn't come up in the debates, I will be amazed.

STEELE: No, he does, because you cannot have a conversation with the community...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: He might as well get it behind him now. If I were him, get it behind you now. Come on here and get it behind you. Michael Steel, Jennifer Granholm...

GRANHOLM: Come on. Come on.

MATTHEWS: Granholm.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Great guests.

Up next: We haven't seen a lot of Bill Clinton on the campaign trail, so what's he up to these days? Author Joe Conason has been tracking the former president for his new book, brand-new book, "Man of the World." That's almost like president of the world. Wasn't that our special here?

And he will be here next.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MILISSA REHBERGER, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: I'm Milissa Rehberger. Here's what's happening.

The attorney general for New York has opened an investigation into the Trump foundation. Eric Schneiderman says he's concerned the charity may have engaged in some impropriety regarding the laws governing charities in New York state.

And U.S. households got a raise last year for the first time since 2007. Incomes surged 2.5 percent in 2015. That's the largest annual gain since 1968 when the Census bureau began releasing data in 1968 -- back to HARDBALL.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: She's doing fine. She -- she was even better last night, before she went to sleep. She had a good night's sleep. She just got dehydrated yesterday. She's worked like a demon, as you know, as secretary of state, and as a senator, and in the years since.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was Bill Clinton, of course, last night on "Charlie Rose" in a rare interview talking about his wife's health.

But what is Bill Clinton, the man who revolutionized what it means to have a post-presidency, really up to day to day right now? I find that question somewhat fascinating.

The former president and possibly the first gentleman of the United States sat down with the author Joe Conason for multiple interviews for Conason's brand-new book, "Man of the World." Conason gained access not to the former President Bill Clinton, but also to Hillary Clinton, daughter Chelsea, friends, colleagues, aides, and supporters. He got in the door.

Joe Conason joins us right now.

Joe, thank you. Good luck with this book out there now. It's a nice cover, although his head's cut off. It's a strange thing at the top.

Let me ask you about Bill Clinton.

JOE CONASON, AUTHOR, "MAN OF THE WORLD": Thank you, Chris.

MATTHEWS: And this is something that is just totally "People" magazine stuff.

CONASON: Yes.

MATTHEWS: What does -- what does he -- he's been out of office 15 years. He's still a young guy by post-presidential standards. He's still generally healthy, it seems.

What does he do every morning? Does an alarm clock go off? Does he get up and go to the office? Does he take a shower, have breakfast like everybody else, go to work? What does he do every day?

CONASON: I think his -- I think the days are different, Chris.

There are travel days for him, especially in the campaign season. He's traveling around the country a lot now for Hillary's campaign.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

CONASON: There are, I think, work days at the foundation, especially now because, as I said in the book, they have been considering for months what to do if she does become president with the foundation. They know to have to...

MATTHEWS: But what does work mean for Bill Clinton, work? When he says, got to go to work today, what does that mean to him?

CONASON: Well, work means the work of the foundation, overseeing the work of the foundation.

It means -- at different times, it's meant things like writing books. And you know what that's like. You sit in a room. And he's usually working with an aide, doing something like that.

Work means going out and raising the money for the foundation. They raised, you know, an endowment that's a quarter-of-a-billion dollars over the last few years. So, there's a lot of different kinds of work.

MATTHEWS: Well, you know, I just did some checking. Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton together have ran in 18 elections, actual elections, November, the whole thing, campaign...

CONASON: Yes.

MATTHEWS: ... do the whole thing, 18 elections, starting when he ran for Congress out in Arkansas, then ran for attorney general. Then he ran for governor, and he lost it. Then he ran and won five times in a row. Then he ran for president a couple times. He won both times. Hillary Clinton has won now for Senate twice. She has ran for president the second time now. They both, I think, ran for student office.

CONASON: Right.

MATTHEWS: What drives them, in terms of elections? Why do they run so often? What drives them to run as politicians for their whole lives, really?

CONASON: I think -- you know, I don't have a cynical view of them. I think they really want to change the world.

I think they have wanted that since they were kids. And it goes through various permutations of what kind of change they think should happen and at what pace and in what ways. But I think they have always felt they wanted to make things better.

And I think they like the power and the...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

CONASON: You know, he likes campaigning.

MATTHEWS: I think he does.

CONASON: She's -- as you know, she's wonkish. She likes the issues, she likes the study, she likes to get into it. She's not a natural campaigner the way he is. But I think they both find aspects of politics that are rewarding to them.

MATTHEWS: Well, he's an interesting guy. And you have written an interesting book.

"Man of the World," that's your book. Good luck on the book, Joe Conason. There it is, the cover, with that little bit of head missing up there at the top.

(LAUGHTER)

CONASON: Thank you, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Up next: Donald Trump's in Pennsylvania tonight, trying to cut into Hillary Clinton's support by pushing an issue that is meant to appeal to women voters, of course.

Plus, three things you might not know about this election coming up.

You're watching HARDBALL.

There are the flags already for Trump again. Love those flags.

Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

Tonight, Donald Trump's holding a campaign event in Aston, Pennsylvania. He's enlisted his number one surrogate, his daughter, Ivanka, to help roll out a policy proposal, which the Trump campaign says will help with the cost of child care.

The Trump campaign has taken advantage of Secretary Clinton's absence from the campaign trail today to go after a key voting bloc, educated, affluent mothers.

Ivanka Trump, mother of three, is one of her father's most trusted advisers and is reportedly has helped shape the proposal. According to "The Washington Post," she has, quote, "encouraged her father," that would be Donald Trump, for weeks to detail policies that would appeal to parents who feel overburdened or underserved by existing programs. Ahead the speech, the Clinton campaign released this statement, quote, "After spending his entire career and this entire campaign demeaning women and dismissing the need to support working families, Donald Trump released a regressive and insufficient maternity leave policy that is out of touch, half baked, and ignores the way Americans live and work today."

For more, I'm joined now by our roundtable: Ruth Marcus, a great columnist for "The Washington Post," because I always agree with her, John Brabender, who's a smart guy, if occasionally wrong, Republican strategist, and Stephanie Schriock is president of Emily's List.

I want to start with Ruth.

And to get this picture, clearly, he needs women voters. Clearly he needs younger voters, because they're the one with kids, generally. My kids have kids. And child care is a big deal. It costs a lot of money, people want a break. They need a break.

RUTH MARCUS, THE WASHINGTON POST: Child care is really expensive, it's a huge cost for families. Donald Trump needs more support from women voters. He is not going to get -- it would be astonishing if he got majority support from women voters. But what this is geared to is narrowing that gap a little bit.

And it is really a chasm right now. If you look at any of the numbers, any of the polls, women voters like him less, support him less, than men do. Educated women voters. The kinds who might be going to work and really struggling under child care expenses, even more.

MATTHEWS: Yes. What do you think? Do you think married women look at him? Because married women have kids. Other women do, too, of course. But, we're looking at sort of a target audience here. Somebody with kids of -- not preschool age, school age, who make a moderate income, and for them, it's impossible.

They've got to go into a local neighborhood child care situation, they may like, they may not be able to afford individual child care. That's for better off people, period. So, he's saying they're going to get a tax break.

STEPHANIE SCHRIOCK, EMILY'S LIST: Right, and it's a tax deduction, instead of a tax credit, which is helpful the more you make. For those who are just they starting off and not making much, it's actually not getting - -

MATTHEWS: They say he can make up to $250,000 a year, which is a lot of money by any standard, six times the natural average, and you can do it and you can break up to $10,000.

SCHRIOCK: But it's a tax deduction, not a tax credit.

But I think what's really important to think about, you are exactly right. He has lost so much, never really had it, but with women voters. And particularly, he's even now, in most polls, losing college-educated women, which was not the case. And so, yes, this is a ploy. We're less than 60 days out.

MATTHEWS: How is this a ploy if a Democrat did it?

SCHRIOCK: Well, first off, there isn't much to it. It is the bare minimum.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I think it shows -- he's showing a little leg in a sense. Showing, to use a term, I think he's trying to show he cares.

JOHN BRABENDER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, it's politically incredibly smart, strategically. First of all, he's doing it in Pennsylvania. He's doing it on the eastern side of Pennsylvania. So strategically, that's smart.

Second of all, this is not a conservative Republican plan. There will be some conservatives who say, why are we doing this? He is doing this in a way that a lot of women will say, this makes sense to me.

Unlike Hillary, he's not raising taxes to pay for it. And it is reaching an audience --

MATTHEWS: So where's the money coming from?

BRABENDER: He says he's going to do it from saving money in the unemployment program.

MATTHEWS: Waste, fraud, and abuse, the old canard. The old tricks.

BRABENDER: I know. We can't believe there's waste in the federal government.

MATTHEWS: Can't they get rid of waste first and not have new programs?

BRABENDER: Can't they get rid of waste first and not raise taxes?

MATTHEWS: Yes, OK --

(CROSSTALK)

BRABENDER: You're all talking about this being desperate. The "L.A. Times" tracking poll has Trump over three points over Hillary. Who are these people voting if the women aren't voting for him?

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I love that question. You're right. Let me explain.

John, that's right. These numbers are very close nationwide. And yet every category of people -- women, minorities, younger people, are all voting against him. How can that all be true? And he's running pretty much a little bit behind Hillary? How is that possible?

MARCUS: Because what we really need to --

MATTHEWS: Are men voting for him 90 percent?

MARCUS: Men are not voting for him 90 percent, but men are voting for him more than women are.

I think the answer to your question about "why is this a ploy?" is, because it's coming now. This is the kind of thing, I have to say, that Hillary Clinton has been talking about, A, for months, and B, for her entire career.

MATTHEWS: I agree.

MARCUS: And imagine how smart it would have looked if Donald Trump had raised this, for example, in his convention speech, or months before.

(CROSSTALK)

MARCUS: She's not running for president.

MATTHEWS: I want some news here. Trump's campaign manager, Kellyanne Conway, who's very smart about these things we're talking about, earlier today was talking about Hillary Clinton's policy proposals. Let's listen to Kellyanne.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: We can't really find a lot about her child care policy on her website. Maybe they're putting it up now as I speak to you, but we know they talk about it, but we're actually going to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, according to the "Associated Press", comparing policy proposals by the numbers, Donald Trump has offered only seven detailed issues on his website, while Hillary Clinton has offered 38. The one title goes to Hillary.

And here comes Ivanka, by the way. We have to take a little peek at this thing in Pennsylvania, eastern Pennsylvania, here's Ivanka, the daughter of the candidate.

IVANKA TRUMP, DAUGHTER OF DONALD TRUMP: Good evening, everyone.

A few years ago, I read about a single mother facing homelessness, whose child care arrangement failed her the morning of a final job interview. Out of options, she made the tragic choice to leave her young children in a hot car while she attempted to secure the job in order to better the life of her family. She returned to the parking lot following the interview to find her vehicle surrounded by the police. Her children had been hospitalized and she was jailed and charged with felony child abuse.

As I have traveled around the country with my father, stories about the hardships caused by our existing child care system, one that is too expensive, too outdated, and too inaccessible, come up time and time again. Just last week, I spoke military spouse who recounted the vicious cycle responsible for holding so many of American families back economically. She relayed to me the frustration I've heard all too often of not being able to work and bring home a second income because she can't afford quality and reliable child care.

Stories like these go straight to my heart, and they've steeled my belief that there has to be a better way. I have three young children myself, and I'm grateful daily for the means to pursue two of my dreams, being a mother and investing in a career that fulfills me.

I recognize that far too few women can say the same for themselves, and that I am more fortunate than most. This must change. As a society, we need to create policies that champion all parents enabling the American family to thrive. My dad agrees, and he's in a very unique position to do something about this problem and the numerous other problems facing tens of millions of parents and caregivers across our country.

Today, child care is the single-greatest expense for many American families even exceeding the cost of housing in much of the country. It's depleting the hard earned savings of men and women across our nation and it's at the root of wage inequality by disproportionately affecting women.

The federal policies that are in place to benefit families were written more than 65 years ago to serve a primarily male workforce that no longer exists. Dual income families were not the norm in 1949 when the current tax code provisions regarding families were established. Today, however, women represent 47 percent of the U.S. labor force, and in almost two-thirds of married couples, both spouses work outside of the home. Seventy percent of mothers with children at home also work in a professional capacity and 64 percent of these moms have kids age 6 and under.

The number of households led by single mothers has doubled in the last 30 years and approximately two-thirds of these women work in low wage jobs that offer neither flexibility nor benefits. My father has created a plan that is designed to bring relief and to provide working parents with options so that they can make the decisions that are in the best interests of their families. Safe, affordable, high quality child care should not be the luxury of a fortunate few.

Historically, this has not been an area that has received nearly as much attention in the policy world as it deserves. While there are systems in place for older children, hardly any intellectual energy has been devoted to addressing the needs of families with children from birth to 4 years old. In particular, little focus has been put on determining how best to alleviate the enormous financial burdens child care places on low income and middle income families.

At the same time, the United States is the only industrialized nation in the world that does not provide new mothers with paid maternity leave. My father's policy will give paid leave to mothers whose employers are among the almost 90 percent of U.S. businesses that currently do not offer this benefit. This is a reform that is of critical value and long overdue.

My father's plan also recognizes and supports the many women who may not be mothers but have left good paying jobs to care for elderly dependents. This is another example of people who have been routinely ignored by federal policies. Having employed and empowered thousands of women at every level of his company throughout his entire career, my father understands the needs of the modern workforce and is offering a new and innovative solution where others have not.

My father's plan also acknowledges the vital contribution of stay-at- home moms and parents, fathers and mothers, who will ensure that they, too, will receive these new tax benefits. Raising children full-time is one of the hardest jobs anyone can do, and it's essential that our policies recognize and honor that reality. As an employer, a mother and a woman who works both inside and outside the home, these are topics I consider of critical importance.

The policy my father is about to outline is one that I'm proud to have helped conceptualize and ensuring its enactment will be one of my top priorities when he's elected come November.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS: OK, let's get back.

What do you make of this, Ruth?

MARCUS: I think that Ivanka Trump is a terrific surrogate for her father and she's making an argument, a reasoned argument about an important issue, but it's not an issue that Donald Trump has paid any attention to or will be paying any attention to now absent her.

MATTHEWS: Stephanie, can he jump into something like this two months before an election and say I really care about child care, Donald Trump?

SCHRIOCK: We're 56 days out. And already through his rhetoric alienated women so badly that, A, minor policy that I really think is a ploy here that's minimal is not going to fix this problem with women voters.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: It's like Hillary Clinton saying, I'd like to open -- I'd like to get into the casino business. It's a little bit odd, John.

BRABENDER: But this is not about child care. This is about --

MATTHEWS: Let's watch him. Here's Donald Trump.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Thank you, everybody. That's very nice. Beautiful. Thank you very y much.

And I want to applaud my daughter Ivanka for her work and leadership on this issue. She has been working so very hard. Ivanka's been deeply invested in this since long before the campaign began, I can tell you that.

And I'm very grateful to her for her work, her efforts and this proposal which we're going to be outlining right away. I think it's going to make a lot of people very, very happy. A lot of moms very happy.

(APPLAUSE)

I want to also take a moment to recognize Congresswoman Cathy McMorris Rogers, the chairwoman of the House Republican Conference, and a mother of three small children, who has been such a leader and worked so hard with us. So, Cathy, we want to thank you very much.

(APPLAUSE)

Also, we're joined tonight by some amazing members of Congress in our audience, Congresswomen Blackburn, Lummis, Black, Hartzler and Ellmers. Come on up. Just come on up here. Come on, they worked so hard on this. Come on up.

(APPLAUSE)

Come on. Somebody, get up and say something.

REP. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R), TENNESSEE: Well, I won't tell you -- my name is Marcia Blackburn, and I'm from the great state of Tennessee. And I want to say thank you to all of you for the warm reception that you have given to us, and I want to say a special thank you to Mr. Trump. Focusing on the issues that affect working women --

MATTHEWS: Well, election diary Tuesday, September 13, 2016, we're watching it.

Mark down today as the date President Obama entered the 2016 election and showed his stuff. That stuff is his light, joyous, mischievous assault on the person of Donald Trump. Obama wants this one.

He wants it for Hillary Clinton because she'll protect his legacy personally, protect what he's for politically. She'll do for him what any president needs once he's left the trappings of the White House and the immediate power of the presidency. President Obama once said privately that the two things he'll miss when out of office are the plane, Air Force One, and the valet who sets out his clothes in the morning and keeps his room neat.

Well, one thing he's determined not to be without is having a president in the White House speaking well of him and carrying on his basic policies. The last thing he wants is to go down in history as the president whose terms of office the American people rejected, with such gusto, they were willing to replace him with Donald Trump.

The vital importance of today is that, despite a surrogate for Hillary Clinton, who was unmatchable by the other side, a surrogate who knows just where to strike at the opposition, Lee Atwater, a terrifying smart political operative for the Republicans once developed a method for breaking the other side's heart. Find a state that they know they need to win, then early on, take it away from them.

Today, we watched the president of the United States, a man from the other party execute the Atwater tactic with unalloyed glee. Pennsylvania is mine, he essentially said today, that means you lose.

And that's HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS HAYES, "ALL IN" HOST (voice-over): Tonight, on "ALL IN" --

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Do you mind if I just vent for a second?

HAYES: Hillary Clinton calls in backup.

OBAMA: I really, really, really want to elect Hillary Clinton.

HAYES: The president lets it fly in Philly, dressing down Donald Trump.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END