Hardball with Chris Matthews, Transcript 10/08/15

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: The Republican right in full mutiny. The center cannot hold. Let`s play HARDBALL." Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington. History was made today as one of the country`s two main political parties came apart. Facing all-out demands by the Republican right, Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy withdrew his candidacy for speaker. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), MAJORITY LEADER: We`ve been going through this campaign talking to a lot of members. But the one thing I`ve always said to earn this majority were (ph) service. We should put this conference first. And I think there`s something to be said for us to unite. We probably need a fresh face. I`ll stay on as majority leader. But the one thing I found in talking to everybody -- if we are going to unite and be strong, we need a new face to help do that. So nothing more than that. I feel good about the decision. I feel great to have my family here, my colleagues. I think we`re only going to be stronger. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Well, now exposed for the whole world to see is a party in the midst civil war with its rightist faction in full rebellion now, just as its the leading presidential candidates are with Trump, Carson and Fiorina clobbering the shrinking gabble of GOP establishment candidates in the opinion polls. Here`s how Louisiana Republican John Fleming described what took place in today`s Republican conference.    (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. JOHN FLEMING (R), LOUISIANA: We came in the way we normally do things. There was some lunch provided, some barbecue. We ate that. We were sitting in the chairs. Then we had a prayer and the pledge, like we normally do. Then Kevin McCarthy was called up. We thought that this was going to be sort of his campaign speech. We heard him this morning giving his plea for the job at conference. And the first thing he basically said was that he didn`t want to divide the American people, he didn`t want to divide the Congress. And as a result of that, he says, "I`m not the guy." (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Wow. New York congressman Peter King Told "The Washington Post`s" Robert Costa, "It is total confusion, a banana republic. Any plan, anything you anticipate, who knows what`ll happen. People are crying. They don`t have any idea how this will unfold at all." Well, that reporter, Robert Costa, joins me right now. Robert, what happened today in the largest sense. Is it -- it`s more to me than a leadership fight on Capitol Hill. This strikes me as the Republican right laying down the lay, "Either you play ball with us, or we`re not playing ball with you," which means no political party. ROBERT COSTA, "WASHINGTON POST": It`s a long-simmering stew. It`s the 2010 Tea Party wave. It finally exploded. You have a presidential race run by the outsiders. No one else can get political oxygen. In the House, they`ve kicked out a speaker, and now the next speaker in line doesn`t want to even try for the job. MATTHEWS: Well, let me ask you about the significant in terms of this 218. We hear a lot about that number 218. Today, we heard a lot about the number 247. It seems to me the new demand of the right is you can`t just get a majority of the Republican Party, the Hastert rule, or even the majority of the Congress. What you have to do is you`ve got get the entire Republican caucus support, or you`re not going to have a new leadership. That seems to be the demand from everybody today. COSTA: It especially comes from that House Freedom Caucus, this group of 40 or 50 conservative members that right now, at this time, in terms of political capital, are running the House GOP. There`s no leadership right now inside the House Republican conference. There`s a vacuum. No one knows, as Peter King said, what`s going to happen. So you`re trying to look for some kind of calming force, a healer to come in. That`s why I can report tonight House Speaker John Boehner, two long phone calls today, said to Paul Ryan, You have to step up. I know you don`t want to do it, but you have to step up.    MATTHEWS: Is he the only person that can lead them right now, get the 247 together? COSTA: I mean, there are a lot of people with experience. You got committee chairmen, some veterans, the old bulls. But they don`t have the will to do it. They don`t have the political popularity. MATTHEWS: OK. COSTA: Ryan coming off a ticket in `12, he`s able to, perhaps. MATTHEWS: Put it all together, the polls you read about the favorability of Congress, which is about 1 in 10, the popularity of the three outsiders running for president. I mentioned them, Donald Trump, Dr. Carson and Carly Fiorina. None of them have had a day of political office among them, in total. And of course, what`s going on now. How does it all fit together as you report it in the Republican Party? COSTA: I was just up with Trump at Trump tower. I`ve been on the campaign trail. I was at the Capitol this morning. everything ties together. It`s a rejection of not only the Republican establishment, it`s a rejection of the institution itself of the Republican Party, a rejection of the party by the base. They don`t have an institution they want to rally around. They have an incoherent ideology, a leaderless movement, and they have a lot of frustration. How that filters out -- it`s very complicated, but there`s no real party at this moment to pull everyone together. MATTHEWS: That`s why you`re the best reporter out there, Robert Costa of "The Washington Post." With me now from Capitol Hill, Republican congressman Charlie Dent from Pennsylvania and former Republican congressman Tom Davis. Mr. Dent, thank you for coming on the show. I watched you earlier today. We all grew up with a Republican Party like in Pennsylvania, where I grew up, and it`s a party that we recognize going back to Lincoln, a party of the center-right, occasionally of the center, occasionally of the right.    What`s the Republican Party today that you work with in the caucus? What is -- how would you describe most of its members? REP. CHARLIE DENT (R), PENNSYLVANIA: Well, we have a -- it`s a pretty eclectic bunch, to be very honest. But I think the fundamental challenge we`re facing, Chris, is this, that we have to demonstrate that we have the capacity for governance. And Tom Davis, my friend, who`s on this show with me, was part of the governing wing of the Republican Party. And what we saw last week with a vote to keep the government open, the continuing resolution, only 91 House Republicans voted for it. I can tell you that over 218 Republicans supported keeping the government open, but only 91 voted for it. There`s a lot of "Hope yes, vote no" going on around here, where members want us to govern, but can`t quite get to yes, can`t quite get to supporting that agenda. So it`s very frustrating. There are factions. I`m involved with a group that`s more the center-right Republicans, the Tuesday Group and Republican Main Street. And then we also have the Freedom Caucus. There`s the Republican Study Group. But at the end of the day, we have a responsibility to affirmatively govern this country, and we have to make hard choices and we have to accept the political reality of our situation, a Democratic president named Barack Obama and a Senate where there are not 60 votes. Fifty-four Republicans does not equal 60 votes, and we just have to accept that. MATTHEWS: A member of the hard-right Freedom Caucus, it`s called -- it`s got 40 or 50 members on the hard right -- Tim Huelskamp, reacted earlier on MSNBC. Let`s watch his description of reality. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. TIM HUELSKAMP (R), KANSAS: We just want someone who`s willing to work and (ph) conservatives. You know, we asked Kevin McCarthy, we said, Would you step out and talk to the groups that are planning on attacking conservatives in the primaries next year, and he wouldn`t do that. And we were asking him, Hey, if you want to compromise, you got to come to the table. We actually were meeting shortly after this meeting as members of the House Freedom Caucus to determine what do we need to see. But one thing I do believe is Dan Webster is now the front-runner for speaker. Jason Chaffetz still in the race, as well. But the ideas and the issues raised by Daniel Webster -- let`s make the House work with conservatives, those principles, which is a principle- based approached to leadership -- any -- the next speaker will have...    LUKE RUSSERT, NBC CORRESPONDENT: But Congressman... HUELSKAMP: ... 78 percent of Republicans demanding John Boehner step down, by the way. 77 percent of them want to get rid of Mitch McConnell. I think he should be worried today. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Tom Davis, I`ve never heard wilder statements on television than I heard today on our network, people talking about a speaker being picked who`s not even a member of the House. Give me a break! That`s like saying we`re going to find a layman to become pope! Sure, it`s conceptually possible. It ain`t ever going to happen. Or picking a stopgap guy to hang around for a few months to get us through the debt ceiling, get us through the CR, get us through Planned Parenthood, a stopgap, part-time whatever leader -- there`s no way in the world! It`s going to take a strong leader. What -- look back at the Congress (INAUDIBLE) I`m looking at 40 or 50 guys in the Freedom Caucus saying, My way, our way, or the highway. Unless you back us and get the 247 behind you in the caucus, you ain`t going to have a caucus. That`s what they`re saying all day today. TOM DAVIS (R-VA), FMR. U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Well, that`s right. I mean, political parties are coalitions. You have some elements that just want it to be a private club and pass a litmus test. No one faction of the party really has control of the party. The Freedom Caucus is not going to elect a speaker by itself. It has to do it in coalition with a lot of people who don`t agree with them. This is a test, as Charlie said, of Republicans` ability to govern, and I think it`s going to need a couple weeks to really sort out, as they talk to each other and have these kind of meetings behind closed doors and with each other. I would note this reminds me of Bob Livingston resigning... MATTHEWS: I know.    DAVIS: ... on the floor of the House, and Republicans scurrying to find somebody. And we came up with Denny Hastert, at that point, who actually was a pretty good speaker for his terms. But it took a little time to sort out and to find a consensus builder and somebody -- not necessarily a strong ideologue, but a consensus builder within the party. I think they have several people. The problem is, they`re reluctant to step up to the plate right now, you know, given the temperature of the caucus. MATTHEWS: By the way, Congressman Dent, it`s it`s great to have you on. We haven`t had you on before. And I have to tell you I was struck by a term from the Vietnam era we all grew up with, which was "fragged." Somebody said that McCarthy was fragged. Now, that`s a term used in Vietnam. It`s a horrific memory by the American people. It`s when the enlisted men in the Army or the Marines or -- probably the Army, who killed their young officers rather than advance into difficult firefights. Because they didn`t want to get killed, they killed their officer. These are horrible maybe legendary or mythical horrible notions of what happens in a very unpopular war, fragged. Was Kevin McCarthy fragged today by the rank and file? DENT: Well, I said before John Boehner stepped down that the same people were trying to... MATTHEWS: No, it was your term, "fragged," wasn`t it. DENT: Yes, I said it. Yes, I said it. MATTHEWS: Well, explain. DENT: Yes, well, sure. I said before John Boehner stepped down that the same people who are trying to take down John Boehner were going to try to frag the next guy. MATTHEWS: Yes.    DENT: And that`s what happened today. Let`s be honest about it. He was taken down by some of his own members. And I`m not going to sugarcoat it. That`s exactly what happened. And we need to move forward, but that`s the reality of what happened. We can say it -- and I also want to follow up on one thing. I heard my colleague from Kansas mention, you know, about -- talk about conservatism. Some people are trying to redefine conservatism. Where I grew up in Pennsylvania, where you grew up and where Tom Davis grew up, you know, my idea of conservatism means things like order, control, stability, certainty, temperance, not anarchy, chaos, instability and intemperance. I mean, I think we need to get back to this, that, you know, those of us who are more traditional in the notion of what it means to be a conservative Republican have to reclaim the party and start talking about these issues. I mean, nobody wants to shut the government down. The American people don`t want that. They don`t want the country to default. MATTHEWS: Well... DENT: You know... MATTHEWS: ... you say nobody. If you`re living out in Idaho or Utah or places like that, where they -- you have to vote for speaker or you have to vote the person`s name. They were unwilling to say the name out loud on C-SPAN come the end of this month, McCarthy. So they`re afraid to put their name to somebody else`s name, Congressman. I want to stay with you, Congressman Dent. What name would they be willing to put their name to, where they would actually say, I would trust this person enough at least to have the office of speaker, even if I`m going to hold tight reins on him? DENT: Well, that`s always been the problem. They`ve never had a horse of their own. They tell us what they`re against. They can`t get to yes or they can`t get to who they want. Now, maybe they`re going to support Daniel Webster, but it doesn`t seem that Daniel Webster has a lot of support within the conference more broadly. So that was always the problem. Back in January, when John Boehner was being voted on for speaker, there were people just calling out names. They never had a candidate, they were just simply trying to undermine the speaker, take down their own leader. That`s what happened. MATTHEWS: Tom Davis, is this a victory for Hillary Clinton? I know it`s a bank shot here, but it seems to me that she was the one that called out McCarthy for saying that the strategy behind holding the Benghazi hearings was to bring her down politically. And she`s -- she`s handled this pretty well, compared to how she`s handled things before.    But she`s basically called out McCarthy. and he said today that his comment about the strategy of that committee being political and partisan in nature -- I think he said something like, It wasn`t helpful. DAVIS: Well, I think that`s true. But October 22nd will be the definitive day for Hillary Clinton and for the Republicans on the House committee at this point. And I -- you know, I think McCarthy`s statement at that point will be more distant, and the fact that he won`t be speaker I think gives them time to get on a more -- a level playing field. Let me make one point, Chris, and that is, with Boehner now continuing to be speaker, he is in a stronger position to clean up things like debt ceiling and issues -- and the conservatives may not get the deal they might have if they`d worked together with a new speaker like McCarthy to get things done. I don`t know how you feel about that, Charlie, but in a way, they`re hurting their own cause. DENT: Agreed. They got exactly what they did not want, which was John Boehner to be speaker because John Boehner is currently the speaker, and he will remain the speaker until we elect another one. So they got exactly what they didn`t want, and John Boehner intends to clean up the barn a bit. And I agree with you, debt ceiling, also the issue of coming to a budget agreement. We may be able to get those issues dealt with before he leaves at the end of October. So yes, you`re absolutely right, Tom. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: When your party came together, Congressman Dent, in Ripon, Wisconsin, back before the Civil War, it was a merger of the abolitionists, the real zealots, with the Whigs. Could your party be coming apart at the seams right now, with the Whigs, the moderate -- the moderate Republican Party of the East Coast drifting apart because it seeks to stay rational, from the right-wing zealots? DENT: Well, I believe we`re going to be able to put this back together again. I do. It`s going to take some time. There are going to be some soul searching, some healing. But I`ll tell you what. One thing I have discovered here, in order to pass any meaningful legislation here -- the continuing resolution, the debt ceiling or the budget agreement, omnibus -- we`re going to have to assemble a bipartisan coalition to accomplish those goals. You know, if we don`t get our act together as the Republican conference and select our own person, whoever it may be, Paul Ryan or somebody else, then we might have to actually assemble a bipartisan coalition to elect a speaker. And that`s something we haven`t seen for a very long time around here.    MATTHEWS: Right now, I want to put you on the line. Are you willing to put your name on the line calling for Ryan to be the next speaker? DENT: Oh, if Paul Ryan were to run for speaker, I would in all likelihood support him. I think he`s one of the few members who can perhaps pull everybody together... MATTHEWS: I do, too. DENT: ... and secure 218 Republican votes on the House floor. Yes, I would. MATTHEWS: That`s what I thought the minute this broke. Anyway, thank you, U.S. Congressman Charlie Dent. Please come back again. DENT: Absolutely. MATTHEWS: Tom Davis, you are always welcome on HARDBALL. Coming up -- with the Republicans` inability to pick a leader, are they a party anymore? That`s the question I`m raising here. I think it`s worse than chaos right now. What`s going on is a real break between the people who want to be part of the United States government and those who want to be protesting it from the hard right. Plus, Hillary Clinton`s gearing up for the first Democratic debate, which is coming on fast. She`s aggressively going on -- well, she`s going to her left to try to bring in those people that are being, well, seduced a bit by Bernie Sanders. She`s moving left on trade, on guns, on Keystone, on Wall Street. Well, not everybody`s convinced it`s authentic. And here`s a question. What happens if the members pick a speaker committed -- a Speaker of the House committed to government shutdowns as a political tactic? I`m afraid that`s what`s next. Finally, "Let Me Finish" tonight with the historic rupture we`re watching -- and it is historic -- in the Republican Party.    And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Speaker John Boehner was a scheduled guest on the "Tonight" show with Jimmy Fallon this evening, but he canceled that appearance shortly after the news broke of Kevin McCarthy dropping out of the speaker`s race. No word on if or when Boehner will reschedule. Much more on the dramatic chain of events on Capitol Hill today coming up, and what this says about the survival of the Republican Party, when HARDBALL returns after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Conservative lawmakers in the House Freedom Caucus -- I love that name -- were celebrating their victory today for torpedoing another guy, this time Kevin McCarthy in his bid for the speaker. By the way, they just got a speaker a few days ago. With anti-Washington sentiment at an all-time high, it`s no surprise, op course, that the top three candidates for the Republican nomination these days are complete political outsiders. Donald Trump, Ben Carson, Carly Fiorina, none of them with any political government experience, are leading the pack. And according to RealClearPolitics polling average, their combined support amounts to 50 percent of the Republican Party nationwide. Now the 2016 candidates are now reacting to the bombshell news today. At a rally in Nevada today, Donald Trump took credit, and maybe he`s right, for McCarthy`s collapse, to some extent. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want to just start by saying, you know, Kevin McCarthy is out. You know that, right? (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)    TRUMP: And they are giving me a lot of credit for that, because I said, you really need somebody very, very tough and very smart. You know, smart goes with tough, not just tough. I know tough people. They are not smart. That`s the worst. OK? (LAUGHTER) TRUMP: But it`s bedlam in Washington right now, bedlam. It`s a mess. (END VIDEO CLIP) (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS: He has got that right. It is bedlam. It is a mess. Ben Carson had a more muted reaction, as he often does today, on CNN. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I say kudos to Representative McCarthy for putting others before himself. This is not something that we see very often in Washington. And I hope it`s a trait that will be emulated by others as time goes on, because, you know, we have a lot of problems that have to be solved, and none of us should put ourselves ahead of those problems.    (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Joined right now Susan Page of "USA Today" and MSNBC political analyst Joan Walsh of "The Nation." I want to start with Susan, then go to Joan quickly. And to me, I`m looking at this as something, as Robert Costa, who is a sharp reporter, this has been simmering a long time. And what seems to be the point now is there are people from the West and the South who cannot get renominated, they fear, as members of Congress if they put their names to a leader, and that leader does anything less than stop the government and be really, really tough on what they call principles. Like, if -- they were being told today, if you vote to make this guy the nominee for speaker, Kevin McCarthy, you are going to have to go on C- SPAN at the end of this month and yell out from the floor McCarthy, and that is going to be your responsibility to pick a leader, and they don`t want to be there. Your thoughts. SUSAN PAGE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "USA TODAY": I think that this reflects exactly -- I think Donald Trump is exactly right. The forces that have propelled him are the forces that caused so much problems for Kevin McCarthy. And it`s not just unhappiness with the establishment. It`s sort of unhappiness with the way our political system is supposed to work, which is with compromise. This is a kind of anti- governing sentiment. MATTHEWS: Anti-governing, not just government. PAGE: Anti-governing, saying, we are not prepared to make the compromises that you need to make to do things and not prepared to accept things we don`t want to do, like raise the debt ceiling. MATTHEWS: Yes, I think he was right about it being a mess too and chaos.    Anyway, here`s the result. Joan, I think you are going to love this, because this is such a classic, typical response by Jeb Bush. Here is what he said today. He was surprised by what happened and offered praise for Congressman Daniel Webster, who is running for speaker. Here he is. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I`m most surprised. I think Kevin McCarthy was a good person and a good man. I`m surprised that he dropped out. I don`t follow that that carefully. I`m not going to interject myself into a political vote inside the House caucus. Dan Webster is one of the -- one of my closest friends in the political process. He is a principle-centered guy. There will be others that might emerge as well. I just hope that they stay focused on making sure that people know they are trying to solve problems for people. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: That man is a cheerleader for dullness. I`m telling you, he is surprised by what happens. He only tells you who his friends are. Who cares who your friends are? We are talking about leading the Republican Party. Now here comes Chris Christie from somewhere in New Jersey saying that nobody cares who the speaker of the House is. Let`s watch. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER") GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is an inside Washington, D.C., game that, I have to tell you the truth, Jake, nobody in America could care less about. They don`t care who the speaker is going to be. What they want is a Congress who is actually going to do something. As for this "Game of Thrones" business, nobody cares. They could care less, Jake, and so could i.    (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: In other words, he doesn`t know what he is talking about. JOAN WALSH, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. MATTHEWS: Joan, he is admitting ignorance. He doesn`t care who is leading the Republican Party. Anyway, by the way, just to remind everybody about the United States Constitution, the U.S. House of Representatives sets all spending policy, all tax policy, pretty much sets everything that goes on in the government in terms of policy. It defines our lives as citizens. And he says it doesn`t matter. Interesting analysis there. Your thoughts. WALSH: It`s incredible. But let me go back to Jeb Bush, because that is worse in some ways. First of all, as you said, he came off very dull at this shocking moment. It is also unbelievable that he praises Daniel Webster, because maybe he`s a lovely man, but... (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Which Daniel Webster is he praising, the one before the Civil War? Is it that one? (CROSSTALK)    WALSH: Yes, exactly. I thought that to. No, but you can`t go any farther right than Daniel Webster without going off the edge of the earth. I mean, it`s so ludicrous. And also this notion that Kevin McCarthy did this wonderful thing by stepping aside, this self-sacrifice, because somebody else is going to get to 247, this is another thing that happens to the Republican Party, where the leadership kind of collaborates in madness. The leadership is against government. It`s against governing. It`s against compromise. They indulge people and say, we are just going to repeal Obamacare, we`re going to defund Planned Parenthood, things they have no chance of doing. And then they are surprised when their base is upset and they turn to outsiders like Donald Trump. It actually makes sense to me. I sort of feel sorry for the base, in the sense that John Boehner collaborated in this fiction, and then it brought him down, and it`s bringing down Kevin McCarthy. But they did this to themselves. They really did. MATTHEWS: I think there is a battle between the student council types who have been running for student council or fraternity masters every year and the people who have true beliefs. Anyway, they may not be our beliefs and our -- in this case. Anyway, Senator Lindsey Graham said today that a brutal fight among Republicans in the House could hurt the party`s chances in the 2016 election. Pretty good estimate there by Lindsey. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don`t know who is going to replace him. I hope it is a consensus candidate, somebody people can get along with. But if we have a meltdown in the House, and we can`t govern the House, then it`s going to hurt our chances to win in 2016. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Well, there he is out on the shooting range.    (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS: That`s where they caught him, Susan. I don`t know. I think he is right, though. I think that this is a real fight for the Republican Party. And I don`t think it is coming back together again. I don`t see how they find a leader, unless they get Ryan to come in on a white horse and say OK. But even then, he has to shut the government down. PAGE: That`s right. You shut down the government. You have trouble raising the debt ceiling. You have crises after crises. And that will hurt them in a general election, when you know the electorate is of course much broader than it is in Republican primaries. But all the energy in the Republican Party right now is with the forces that all want to disrupt things. And -- but that is not the electorate that will choose next... (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: I got to get Joan on one last point. I have looked at polls. You know what the biggest concern of the American people right now? There is a lot of concerns, guns and everything else, but the economy, that word. WALSH: Yes.    MATTHEWS: It`s not just jobs. It`s the notion that there is something shaky out there, that this thing is fragile, this recovery. (CROSSTALK) WALSH: Wages are not going up the way they should. MATTHEWS: Right. There is a sense the whole thing may shake loose. And then we had the prospect of shutting down the spending of the government, shutting down everything, the regulatory, everything. It`s possible that this could be the catalyst for a real fall for everybody. WALSH: Well, it is possible. It`s really scary. As a Democrat, I can`t, like, jump up and down about it, because the prospects are frightening. But Speaker Boehner is going to stay speaker. And maybe he goes out. I feel sorry for him. The man looked so happy when he announced his resignation. (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS: Yes. WALSH: But maybe he is going to go out with raising the debt ceiling, getting a budget, getting the highway bill, which Republicans used to love stuff like that, getting some infrastructure. MATTHEWS: They used to. WALSH: They used to.    MATTHEWS: They used to like to do stuff. WALSH: And show them how it`s done, because there is a governing coalition in our country. And it is Democrats with moderate Republicans. But the moderate Republicans, as Congressman Dent said, they say -- they preach hope and vote no. They won`t even necessarily put their names on the notion of government. MATTHEWS: Well said. WALSH: It`s just crazy. MATTHEWS: I like your allusion to "Godfather 3," by the way. They pulled me right back. Anyway, they pull me back in. (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS: Joan Walsh, thank you. That`s what -- I thought it was. That`s a guys thing. WALSH: Yes. MATTHEWS: But you know what I`m talking about.    (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: It`s always "Godfather" talk anyway. Susan Page, thank you very much. We will be right back with more on this dramatic news day today on Capitol Hill coming up in this hour. By the way, HARDBALL, all of us back in a minute. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MILISSA REHBERGER, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: I`m Milissa Rehberger. Here`s what`s happening. NBC`s Luke Russert caught up with Congressman Paul Ryan as he was leaving the Capitol to ask him about the turmoil in his party and whether he would be interested in the job of speaker. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LUKE RUSSERT, NBC CORRESPONDENT: How surprised were you about McCarthy not going for it all? REP. PAUL RYAN (R), WISCONSIN: I was -- I thought he was going to get the job. I thought he was.    Watch yourselves, guys. We got this thing here. I was surprised. RUSSERT: So, you found out in the conference meeting with everybody else? RYAN: I was very shocked. He told me right before. RUSSERT: Right before. Wow. (CROSSTALK) RYAN: I was very shocked. RUSSERT: What does this say kind of about where your party is right now? RYAN: Oh, this is not the time or place to have those conversations. (END VIDEO CLIP) REHBERGER: More on the speaker fight on Capitol Hill coming up on HARDBALL.    And in South Carolina, residents in some low-lying coastal areas are being urged to evacuate as inland floodwaters begin to flow towards the sea -- now back to HARDBALL. MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. The bombshell news that Congressman Kevin McCarthy did not have the votes to become the next speaker of the House today took Washington by surprise. So, how could this happen, after so many thought he had the lock on the job? Eliana Johnson is Washington editor for "National Review." She broke the story this afternoon of the -- McCarthy dropping out. And Howard Fineman is global editorial director of The Huffington Post. He knows a lot about this story, too. This is something that was percolating. But you were there. Tell me what you know about the ticktock today. What happened? ELIANA JOHNSON, "NATIONAL REVIEW": Well, members were serving themselves lunch in what was supposed to be the vote to nominate the speaker-designate. (SNEEZING) MATTHEWS: Excuse me. JOHNSON: Bless you. And they were serving themselves barbecue and soda, and McCarthy got up in what was supposed to be his political speech to his conference. And, instead, he said that members need a new face, he is not the right man for the job. (SNEEZING)    MATTHEWS: Excuse me. Well, why did he have a zip-a-dee-doo-dah about it? He was like smiling and debonair about giving up the dream of his life, which is -- you don`t go into the House and get in the leadership without the idea of becoming speaker someday. He just kissed it all goodbye without a drop of sweat. JOHNSON: McCarthy absolutely wanted this job. But I think what happened was, he made this unfortunate comment about the Benghazi committee on Sean Hannity`s show. And he was... MATTHEWS: You mean the truth. JOHNSON: He intimated really that it was a political... (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: No, he said it. JOHNSON: Yes. Yes. He said flat out. And he spent the past two weeks under the harsh glare of a spotlight. MATTHEWS: Yes, but here is the question. If you`re going to be -- I want to know what happened between 8:00 this morning, when he said he was running, and noon and 12:30, when he didn`t. Do we know what happened in those four-and-a-half hours? JOHNSON: In those four-and-a-half hours, what "N.R." was told -- and McCarthy called "National Review" after he stepped down -- but what we have heard is that moderate members of the conference got -- were hearing grumbling from their constituents.    That`s a real turning point. MATTHEWS: Moderate members? JOHNSON: Moderate members of the conference. MATTHEWS: Why were they... (CROSSTALK) JOHNSON: Because I think what happened with these Benghazi remarks that McCarthy had spent two weeks trying to dig himself out of was that the speaker is supposed to represent the entire conference, and with those remarks, he was undermining his conference. And I think that makes you truly unelectable. MATTHEWS: I haven`t heard that before. Howard, you were talking about this, about what you have heard intimated before this that was coming. HOWARD FINEMAN, NBC CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, right. Well, last night, I had a conversation with Representative John Yarmuth of Kentucky. He`s a Democrat. But he`s a very good vote-counter and he has good relationships.    MATTHEWS: Former Republican. FINEMAN: Yes. He worked for Marlow Cook. He worked -- he knows Mitch McConnell very well. He has good Republican sources. And what he told me last night was, they don`t have the votes, meaning that McCarthy would have the votes to win a clear majority in that closed meeting that you covered and sussed out. But when it got to the floor, he wouldn`t have the 218 he would need for the majority. And what John said is, what that means is they may eventually have to try to work out some kind of bipartisan deal. By the way, the House in the last century often operated that way. And the powerful Republican speakers earlier in the last century, famous names that have buildings named after them, like Longworth and Cannon and so forth, they worked with the other party under the table. This may be the only way that they are going to be able to elect somebody. Now, that`s Yarmuth speaking. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Yes, I don`t think that is going to happen. FINEMAN: I don`t think it is going to happen either. But he did know that -- he did know that McCarthy didn`t have the votes. MATTHEWS: It used to be your statement of party identity. FINEMAN: Right.    MATTHEWS: How do you know you are a Democrat or Republican? You said Pelosi when the roll call was made. You said Pelosi. That meant you`re a Democrat. FINEMAN: Right. MATTHEWS: And if you said Boehner, that meant you`re a Republican. Now loyalty isn`t there anymore. FINEMAN: Well, the problem is that there isn`t one name that represents the party. That`s the point. MATTHEWS: Well, well said. That is -- nobody wants to put their name on C-SPAN. They don`t want to yell out McCarthy. They`re scared to death it will kill them in Idaho. Anyway, Eliana Johnson, congratulations. Your name is now Scoop Johnson for a couple days. (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS: And, Howard Fineman, who is always ahead of the game, thank you. Coming up, with just five days before the first Democratic debate, Hillary Clinton looks to hold on to the left wing of the Democratic Party, breaking with her former boss on a landmark trade deal she once sold many times as secretary of state. You are watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.    (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. She recently called herself a moderate, but Hillary Clinton is in the midst of an aggressive push right now to shore up support from her left flank and crowd out Bernie Sanders as we approach -- and they do -- next week`s big Democratic debate, the first one. Over the past few weeks, Hillary Clinton has broken with President Obama by joining progressives in their opposition to Keystone pipeline. She has launched a major assault on the Republican-led Benghazi committee in an effort to shut down any lingering doubts about her viability as a candidate. We are seeing a Republican Party now implode thanks to that issue. She has moved to the left on -- of rival Bernie Sanders, especially -- not as -- usually a difficulty, but this time not so hard -- on gun control. In a major about-face, she has joined with labor unions by opposing the president`s TPP trade deal. It`s a deal she championed as secretary of state, and her own husband supports it. Bill Clinton does. And, today, she unveiled a big plan to crack down on Wall Street, a favorite punching bag for the progressive wing. She`s also moved to the left of President Obama`s deportation policies. She`s joined labor unions by opposing the Cadillac tax and the Affordable Care Act, and she`s gone to the left of the White House by opposing the plan to drill in the Arctic. Wow. The roundtable today, Anne Gearan is political correspondent with "The Washington Post", John Stanton is Washington bureau chief of "BuzzFeed", and Sabrina Siddiqui is a political reporter with "The Guardian". All three, as we go down the line -- why is Hillary moving to the left on so many fronts so fast? ANNE GEARAN, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, actually, I mean, it started back very quickly after she entered the race in April when she moved to the left of Obama on immigration, where I think you`ve seen in the last three weeks or so is a much more stepped up pace where she is doing a number of things. She is getting ready for the debate which is next week. She`s got to sort of have a whole set of issues in line that had been including a couple that had been open questions, Keystone and TPP, certainly, and Cadillac Tax. Those were all out there that her rivals have said what they would do and would be able to attack her on. So, she checked those boxes now. I think she is also clearly with the TPP decision, she is sending a signal to Joe Biden who I don`t think will be in the debate but has been a point man for the administration on a trade deal will probably continue that role, leading up to the votes or the thankless task of trying to round up Democratic votes for it. And so, she`s now been able to say that she is against this thing that all the other candidates are against.    MATTHEWS: Let me be more pointed, I think she is doing this because Richard Trumka, very passionate, let`s put it lightly, head of the AFL-CIO, the top union leader in the country, he wants to get rid of the Cadillac tax because it is part of his union contracts with but good contracts like UAW, and she is buckling to him and she`s buckling to him on trade. Does anybody believe she is against this trade deal in principle? Anybody here? SABRINA SIDDIQUI, THE GUARDIAN: I don`t think that on principle, and I think that -- MATTHEWS: So, what is pushing her to the left on? SIDDIQUI: Well, you mentioned Richard Trumka and that`s important, because he said himself, this is a difference between having our vote and having us actually rally -- (CROSSTALK) SIDDIQUI: But that is the difference here. You know, she has this from Bernie Sanders -- MATTHEWS: Well, here`s Hillary Clinton taking lot of heat for joining with progressive unions, all unions opposing the president`s TPP trade deal, the headlines aren`t pretty. From CNN, "45 times Secretary Clinton pushed the trade bill she now opposes." From Vox. Hillary Clinton`s flip-flop makes no sense. From NBC`s First Read, why Hillary Clinton`s trade flip-flop is unbelievable. And from "The Daily Beast", this is really tough, "Hillary`s trade flip-flop shows how dumb she thinks we are." Well, her primary rivals are also on the attack. Here they go.    (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MARTIN O`MALLEY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Wow, that`s a reversal. I was against the trans Pacific partnership but months and months ago. I can tell you that I didn`t have one opinion eight months ago and switch that opinion on the eve of debates. SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I will let the American people determine who has credibility or not. But let me say a word on it -- I`m glad that she reached that conclusion. This is a conclusion that I reached from day one. All I can tell you, whether it is the Keystone pipeline, whether it is TPP, these issues I have had a very strong opinion on from day one. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: OK. Bernie is a self-described socialist, a man to the left, whatever that socialist means today. It means whatever it means to him. Fair enough. But he is a man of constant political positioning. He hasn`t shifted. Howard Dean was on here a couple of weeks ago said that man hasn`t changed a speech in 50 years. Hillary Clinton has now changed her speech from being a moderate Democrat, a free trade Democrat, to being in effect, whatever her soul is saying, a protectionist. JOHN STANTON, BUZZFEED: I mean, if you think about it from the practical standpoint, I don`t think anybody is going to look at Hillary Clinton and say she is not a politician and you`re not a calculating politician, I think, A. And think B, also, these are relatively sort of narrow issues in terms of the care about them. Environmentalists care about the Keystone pipeline, trade is the unions. And for the unions, if she is willing to be basically like, fine, I will take this one and I`ll give you exactly what you want and I`ll give you want in the Cadillac tax -- (CROSSTALK)    MATTHEWS: How far do you go before you break? STANTON: The Clintons are pretty good at never breaking. So -- (LAUGHTER) STANTON: I don`t know. They have yet to set the bar. SIDDIQUI: And I also think it`s important to note that the polling is consistently shown that Bernie Sanders is not just gaining traction because people are anti-Hillary. In fact, it is a question of policy. This is where the Democratic base is. And so, she is not going to gain by trying to attack Bernie Sanders and trying to distance herself from these proposals. She`s going to have -- MATTHEWS: I think it makes Richard Trumka look stronger. Good for him. He`s a good guy. And he`s got a tough challenge ahead of him, keeping the labor movement strong. Good for him. Good for him. But I think Bernie Sanders looks better than Hillary because he stuck with the position on the left. She`s moved to his position. When they`re getting that debate next week, he`s going to say thank you for joining us, Hillary. It`s taken 60 years but here you are. GEARAN: Yes, obviously, try to neutralize that now. This debate is way before many, many people are paying attention. So, there is that and I also don`t think she said or done anything yet in any of these positions that is going to hurt her in the general election. MATTHEWS: Well, her husband supports this. I can`t wait for him to grab a microphone. STANTON: Wasn`t that what we`re saying, that people saying a year ago about this, that she needed to come in to fight from so she can maybe move a little bit to the left, so that the left got what they wanted. It`s kind of what she is doing. MATTHEWS: Is Biden going in?    SIDDIQUI: I don`t this can so. I don`t think trade or Keystone is going to decide the general election. MATTHEWS: I think he wants everybody to say please get in and then he will say I don`t have to do it. I don`t know, it`s a weird psychological. I don`t know what I`m talking about him, because I don`t think anybody does. The roundtable is staying with us. And up next, back to our blockbuster story of the day. Kevin McCarthy drops out of the leadership race because he can`t get the votes because the right wing is in revolt. Is the GOP party still a party? That`s my question when we get back. This is HARDBALL, the place for politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Quinnipiac has numbers on the Pennsylvania Senate race tonight, and the two Democrats vying to challenge incumbent Republican Pat Toomey. So, let`s go to the HARDBALL scoreboard. If Toomey is up against former Congressman Joe Sestak, it`s Toomey on the landslide now. He`s got 49 percent, to Sestak`s 34. He is up by 20 if he faces Katie McGinty. It`s Toomey 51, McGinty down at 31. Meanwhile one state over in Ohio, Republican Senator Rob Portman faces a tough challenge from Democratic governor out there, Ted Strickland. Strickland 46, Portman 43. Portman has a 50 percent approval rating in the Buckeye State. But this could become the hottest Senate race in 2016. We`ll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)    MATTHEWS: We`re back with the HARDBALL round table: Ann, John, and Sabrina. It`s one of those political moments that will go down in history I argue, Congressman Kevin McCarthy`s last-minute withdrawal from the race for speaker of the House. This is a Republican Party in the middle of I would argue a revolution. It`s unclear whether the new pick will ever meet the demands of the hard right. Sabrina, you first. Is this the beginning? I think it`s the beginning of what we call in math an unstable variable. This thing is not going to stabilize. It`s not going to settle down. They can`t patch it over. There`s a real division in the Republican Party. SIDDIQUI: There is a real division in the party and I actually don`t think it`s going to be solved until the presidential contest. I think that`s actually going to dictate how this plays out. Either Republicans are going to take back the White House or they won`t. MATTHEWS: Suppose an outsider wins the White House. What will that do to the party? Suppose either Dr. Carson, Trump or Carly Fiorina wins, what does that -- SIDDIQUI: I don`t think there`s a viable path forward to win the White House. If one of them wins the nomination, that would then be the telling moment where it would give an opportunity for established Republicans to take back control and say, look, we tried this -- MATTHEWS: You mean if it goes down in hell? SIDDIQUI: Exactly. MATTHEWS: John? I didn`t mean to say hell. It goes down in trouble. STANTON: There`s enough of an establishment party especially in the House for that to work. You have a very small number of establishment guys that are left. You`ve got a small but loud, very loud group of conservatives and a whole bunch of dudes who all they worry about is getting re-elected. And the people that challenge them in the primaries are always the conservatives. So they`re listening to the conservatives. And I think --    MATTHEWS: Their only fear is looking too left. STANTON: The Chamber of Commerce and like the BRT and those guys are not coming in and like sponsoring candidates to run from the centrist side of the party, right? They`re coming from the right side. So, they are afraid of that. They`re afraid of Marc Levin and guys like that in the talk radio circuits that will beat them up and get people riled up, and I think that`s the problem that they have. MATTHEWS: You know you that how you know that`s true. Every time they offend Limbaugh, they buckle and apologize within hours. STANTON: Immediately, immediately. And I think the fear that Boehner has to have right now is he`s going to get in a situation in the next couple of weeks where he`s going to have to make a deal with Democrats to do a debt ceiling bill and budget situation and that`s going to blow all this up, because how do you get somebody to replace Boehner on a long-term basis or even a short-term stopgap basis which they`re talking about now? I don`t see how they`re going to do it. MATTHEWS: You work for the paper that covers the United States government. Do we have a governing party anymore? Are they into government that party, or are will they let Democrats run the show? GEARAN: Well, clearly, there`s a large faction in the house right now that doesn`t want to govern in the way that -- MATTHEWS: Debt ceiling bills. Who wants to do that? GEARAN: They don`t want business as usual. And they say it very clearly. And if business as usual means passing a debt ceiling and keeping the government funded on time and doing all of these sort of establishment, you know, place holder marking things that the government is supposed to do no, they don`t want to do it. MATTHEWS: You`re the hot hand. You got the hand. Are we going to have government shutdowns? Does this promise a real bad December? GEARAN: I think this makes -- what happened today makes a government shutdown much more likely. I think it`s still possible to get -- MATTHEWS: John?    STANTON: Yes, I agree. MATTHEWS: I think we`re heading toward real chaos and it can hurt the American economy which is -- (CROSSTALK) SIDDIQUI: There`s no telling how John Boehner plays these potential last weeks or months depending on his speakership and it`s really going to be up to him to decide how he wants to go out. Does he want to actually do -- make the hard decision, keep the government open, raise the debt ceiling or is he going to allow this to continue and get out of control? MATTHEWS: Again, I think the American people dish know the American people are worried about the economy, not just their jobs, not just their salaries or their kids` tuition bills or the stuff they normally have to worry about, kitchen table, they`re worried about the whole thing. This market is jittery and if the government shutdown comes along, it could be just the thing to shake this thing over. Like a cargo ship. That`s listing too far. It`s frightening to think about it happening at this time. Thank you, Ann Gearan as always. Thank you, John Stanton. Please come back. Sabrina Siddiqui, thank you so much. When we return, let me talk about the historic rupture that happened today in the Republican Party. You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with today`s historic rupture in the Republican Party. The definition of a political party is its ability to pick leaders. It can`t always agree on policy but when it comes time to organize itself or nominate people for public office, it always manages to get the job done. Quite simply, there`s enough loyalty to the party to are agree to compromise. Loyalty to the party trumps personal objections to personality or policy. Well, today a bit after noon eastern time the Republican Party in the House of Representatives reached the breaking point. The person in the on- deck circle whose turn it was to be speaker said he could not bend to the demands put upon him by the party`s insurgent right. Because of that, Republican members, up to 50 of them, refused to put their names to the name of the person who would be their speaker.    Well, this is an extraordinary mutinous event. The right of the Republican Party is now declaring its unwillingness to join with the rest of the party unless the party of the whole agrees to the tactics of the hard right. Setting non-negotiable demands on matters ranging from Planned Parenthood to paying the government`s debt. So, we`re in for a cold winter now, one that could see -- we`ll see greater recession brought on by repeated government shutdowns, relentless threats to disrupt and depress the American economy. We can expect these developments for the simple reason that a readiness to conduct this kind of congressional action is the demand that Kevin McCarthy refused to accept as a price for retaining his career goal of becoming U.S. speaker of the House. And there`s no reason to assume the Republican who does get the job eventually will be let off with any lesser commitment. To get the job he or she will have to say they stand ready to follow the hard right`s orders to shut everything down if it doesn`t get its way. So, we find ourselves now with three political factions running the U.S. Congress this autumn of 2015. The Democrats, the Republican Party antsy to shut things down if it doesn`t get its way, and finally that small but retreating faction of traditional Republicans who continue to believe that the oath members take to serve in the Congress entails a commitment to govern. That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now. 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