Hardball with Chris Matthews, Transcript 06/23/15

Richard Cohen, Michael Baird, Susan Page


Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

Well, the party that fought for the union in the 1860s and backed
Civil Rights in the 1960s has been caught off-sides in the racial politics
of the 21st century. In the past 24 hours, Republican presidential
candidates have been like circus elephants attempting back flips. It has
not been a pretty sight.

The question for us tonight, why is the political cotillion that
fashions itself as the party of Lincoln having a problem letting go of the
battle flag of Jefferson Davis?

Eugene Robinson is a Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist for “The
Washington Post” and Michael Steele was chairman of the Republican Party.
Both are MSNBC political analysts.

I want to start with you, Michael.


MATTHEWS: And I wonder why your party`s having this problem. It was
very uneven. Some came out early and said we`ve got to get rid of that
flag in the wake of the tragedy in Charleston. Others have been hemming
and hawing and only moving, most of them, after Nikki Haley had the courage
to make give that beautiful speech yesterday.


STEELE: What a wonderful way to set the right tone on this

MATTHEWS: She did, finally.

STEELE: Governor Haley. So hats off to her. If you want to know how
to lead on this issue, follow her because she really, I think, set the
mantle for us.

Now, let`s back it up. You have – you have candidates running for
the presidency who are playing to a particular constituency. They`re
looking at the state of South Carolina for the upcoming Republican

MATTHEWS: The white people in South Carolina.

STEELE: The white folks in the primary in South Carolina. And in the
beginning, I think a lot were hedging their bets, so they took the hands-
off approach. They didn`t want to engage on the subject.

But for me, that is the perfect opportunity because you laid it out,
our history both in the 1800s and the 1900s and now this opportunity to
lead on Civil Rights again I thought was a very important but unfortunately
missed opportunity.

MATTHEWS: And I thought – your thoughts, first.

ANALYST: No, I think Michael is right. I think that they were hedging
their bets, particularly the candidates who are still try to have a
presence in the polls, right?

MATTHEWS: The ones working for number 10.

ROBINSON: Exactly, the ones who aren`t quite rising to the point
where they`re even getting in the first debate. They`re not going to go


MATTHEWS: What about Kasich, who`s trying to make the 10? And he
said – I thought he handled the issue of local thinking, or decision-
making, and national values pretty well. He said, If I lived in South
Carolina, I`d be for taking it down.

ROBINSON: Yes, no, exactly. But you know who put them all on the
spot was Mitt Romney, right…


ROBINSON: … who came out over the weekend with his tweet saying,
you know, get rid of the flag.

MATTHEWS: And what makes him more free to say that now?

ROBINSON: Well, you know…


MATTHEWS: … not running.

STEELE: Yes, but not just free, consistent. In 2007, Mitt had that
position and made it very clear going into the 2008 election that that flag
should be taken down.

MATTHEWS: It was sad because you remember John McCain back in 2008…



MATTHEWS: He wouldn`t do it.

ROBINSON: Who now says that that was a mistake.

MATTHEWS: Yes, right afterwards, he said it was a mistake.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, here`s an issue I do care about a lot, as well as
we all care about the flag. I care about voting. Reince Priebus,
Republican national chairman, popped up behind South Carolina governor
Nikki Haley yesterday, and yet the chair of the Republican National
Committee presides over a party engaged in efforts to block black voter
efforts in nearly 20 states right now.

Donald Trump, by the way, today backed the move by Governor Haley.
Let`s watch him.


it in the museum, let it go, respect whatever it is that you have to
respect because it was a point in time, and put it in a museum. But I
would take it down, yes.


MATTHEWS: It`s hard not to look directly at that hat.



MATTHEWS: I don`t know what his red hat was for. Anyway, yes, he`s a
redcap now. Anyway, Trump spent years playing to the country`s racists by
insulting the president and questioning his legitimacy.


TRUMP: Why doesn`t he show his birth certificate? And you know what?
I wish he would because I think it`s a terrible pall that`s hanging over
him. He should show his birth certificate. The other thing – if you go
back to my 1st grade, my kindergarten, people remember me. Nobody from
those early years…



MATTHEWS: In other words – I love the way Whoopi Goldberg – her
body language.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, he`s saying not only is he illegitimate, a guy
snuck in the country illegally, but he never really went to any of these
schools because nobody remembers him.

ROBINSON: Nobody remembers him.

MATTHEWS: Because he was a phantom. He didn`t exist. He`s not –
he`s not even – Mike, he`s not even Barack Obama, whatever country he came

STEELE: Well, I…


ROBINSON: He`s the Manchurian…


MATTHEWS: Why does that still play in your party?

STEELE: But it doesn`t – I don`t know – I don`t know that it does.
And I haven`t heard anyone – I have not heard anyone make the arguments
that you`re making right now. No one`s talking about…

MATTHEWS: Well, that`s why I`m here.

STEELE: Nobody`s talking about the president`s birth certificate.
That is past and…

MATTHEWS: Well, that`s – forget that now. Is Donald Trump taking
that back?

STEELE: I don`t know if he`s taking it back…

MATTHEWS: Well, he hasn`t.

STEELE: … but he`s not talking about it. He`s not – this is not
part of the conversation.

MATTHEWS: Oh, this is like one of those little blackboards that
disappears when you pull the thing…


STEELE: Well, it disappears, I mean, just as Hillary doesn`t want to
talk about certain issues of the past.


MATTHEWS: How about Reince Priebus showing up yesterday, pretending
he cared about black rights when he`s been fighting voting – voting –
voter suppression…

STEELE: Well, look, I`m not going to…

MATTHEWS: … in 20 states?

STEELE: Having served…

MATTHEWS: He keeps doing it!

STEELE: Having served in the job, I know as chairman, you`re not
responsible for the state legislatures of 50 different – different – 50
different states…

MATTHEWS: Well, what is the leader of the Republican Part supposed to
be for…

STEELE: He`s – he`s – but he`s not writing the legislation! He`s
not the one…

MATTHEWS: He shouldn`t say what`s right and what`s wrong.


STEELE: Well, he can speak to it. And that`s…


STEELE: … a different conversation.


STEELE: He has not spoken to it, that I know of.

MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you. Here`s Rick Santorum, who even now refuses
to take a position on whether the Stars and Bars should get off that lawn.
Today, he said that to answer a question while running for president would
cheapen the issue. Let`s watch.


suggesting that it`s a decision that should be made by South Carolina, and
politicizing this and putting it in the context of a presidential campaign
I think just – I think cheapens it. I think this is a – this is an issue
that`s bigger and more important than that.

And I`m trying to focus in on what I think is really amazing, the
reconciliation both with the flag…

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely agree.

SANTORUM: … and what`s going on here at the church. And I don`t –
I don`t think necessarily my entering into that and – and – and telling
what I should do or what I would do is any more telling or more important
than what the people actually are doing here.



MATTHEWS: Explain it, Gene.


MATTHEWS: I was going to say explain Lucy, but…


ROBINSON: The only explanation I have is that he`s worried about
losing whatever percentage it is of South Carolina Republicans who are, you
know, flag romantists (ph), who are really going to – you know, are going
to hold onto that flag until you have to pry their cold, dead fingers off
of it.

MATTHEWS: Yes, well, that`s what Charlton Heston…


ROBINSON: So – but you know, look, I don`t think he`s getting much
out of this, frankly. I don`t think he`s going to get those votes
necessarily with this stance. The whole Republican Party in South
Carolina, basically, all the power brokers were there yesterday…

MATTHEWS: He`s fighting for the jumper seat in a clown car.

STEELE: But this is the point for me…


MATTHEWS: I`m going to ask you – this reminds me of our history in
this country. Remember Nixon, when Martin Luther King was arrested down in
Georgia right in the middle of the election in 1960. Thanks to Harris
Wofford (INAUDIBLE) Bobby Kennedy got on the phone to Mrs. King and changed
everything. The blue (ph) bomb (ph) came out of that, the big vote.


MATTHEWS: Nixon wouldn`t touch it. Jackie Robinson got on the train
and said, You got to do something, Mr. Vice President. You got to do
something. And Nixon said that would be grandstanding.

And it just sounds like Rick Santorum – it would cheapen the issue. Why
do people come up with these phrases?

STEELE: Well, because it`s fear and it`s political calculation. And
it is the lack of moral certitude on something as important and significant
as Dr. King being illegally jailed or a flag that, you know, a significant
portion of the population view as racist and antithetical to their

And so, you know, getting beyond that fear has been a real struggle
for a lot of politicians because…

MATTHEWS: I wonder, could any other guy, besides Nikki Haley, have
done the dramatic thing – I know how affected you were by it because we
played a clip of it – and I didn`t grow up like you did down there, and I
thought this was one of the rare moments in television where somebody
actually looked like a leader.

ROBINSON: No, absolutely. Look, I thought she was terrific,
yesterday. I really did. I thought her tone was just right, not just the
content of what she said, which, very carefully, you know, kind of
explained – we were talking earlier, it like she was mama saying, you
know, This is the way it`s going to be from now on. She said it very
sweetly, but she said it. But I thought her tone was perfect. Her voice
was confident. It was just – it was – she did a really good job.

MATTHEWS: And could anybody else have done that?

ROBINSON: I – nobody…



ROBINSON: You know, I don`t know.

STEELE: I say no because they didn`t.

MATTHEWS: Well, Lindsey Graham could have done it. Did he?


STEELE: No, but they didn`t.

ROBINSON: But here`s the question, though. So here you had Nikki
Haley, Indian-American governor, off this terrific performance, I`m
confident she`s going to get the flag down, flanked by Tim Scott, elected
black Republican senator from South Carolina.

Will they go beyond the flag? Will they go beyond the symbol of the

MATTHEWS: The Republican Party or South Carolina?

ROBINSON: … to begin to show the Republican Party how it…


ROBINSON: … can get on the right side of…


MATTHEWS: What you tried to do.

ROBINSON: … some of this…

MATTHEWS: What Jack Kemp tried to do.


ROBINSON: … concrete issue. Will they be the new Jack Kemp…

MATTHEWS: Who – who`s the new Jack Kemp? Is it she? Who`s the new

STEELE: Well, I mean, I think…

MATTHEWS: … I mean the face of the party that`s credible?

STEELE: She showed some elements of it. You know, I think, you know,
you`ve got someone potentially like a Rand Paul, who has spent a lot of
time in the community. He was late in his response here, but you know, he
at least has a record that he can fall on.

But can I – just on Nikki Haley – the one thing that I think is
important to take away from that was how she wove together two disparate
interests. She had that Southern white conservative, and everyone else,
and she in her statement wove them together in a very important way I think
that`s going to – to your point – help her have that flag taken down.

MATTHEWS: Well, today, Senator Rand Paul was asked about the flag
issue. Let`s listen to what he said.



inescapably a symbol of human bondage and slavery, and particularly when
people use it, you know, obviously, for, you know, murder and to justify
hatred so vicious that you would kill somebody – I think that that
symbolism needs to end, and I think South Carolina is doing the right


MATTHEWS: Well, according to Rush Limbaugh, removing the flag has
nothing to do with taking down a symbol of hatred. For the Republican
Party`s grand vizier, it`s a liberal effort to target the South. Let`s
listen to the underwater walrus and what he has to say.


senate`s not going to stop with the Confederate flag because it`s not about
the Confederate flag. It is about destroying the South as a political
force. It`s about isolating, targeting and identifying the South as Dylann

Do not doubt me, folks! And I`ll make another prediction to you. The
next flag that will come under assault, and it will not be long, is the
American flag!


MATTHEWS: Why do people listen to that crap?

STEELE: I don`t know what…

MATTHEWS: I mean, nobody thinks the American flag`s under assault.



MATTHEWS: Who is sitting in their car buying that garbage?

STEELE: Well, look, the thing about the South – and I`m sure Rush
knows this and appreciates this – it`s changing.


STEELE: The South Carolina today is not the South Carolina of 10
years ago, let alone 50 years ago.

MATTHEWS: Or of two weeks ago.

STEELE: Or two weeks ago.

ROBINSON: Or two weeks ago, yes.

STEELE: We look at the South, you know, a state like North Carolina
and Virginia, states like that voting for Barack Obama. There is changes
that are happening there.

MATTHEWS: Events matter. Pearl Harbor mattered.



STEELE: The party`s got to be in with those changes and know what`s
going on.

MATTHEWS: You know, Arthur Schlesinger once said that being a
politician is to be in essentially a learning profession. You must learn
all the time.

ROBINSON: Right. So which Republicans learned that Charleston
matters, that what happened last week in Charleston is going to matter?

MATTHEWS: Because it showed our bloodstream has this in it.


MATTHEWS: It wasn`t an organization, it wasn`t a police force, it was
this kid who was somehow channeling the hatred that he had somehow
inherited somewhere, from this society.

Thank you, Eugene Robinson. And thank you, Michael Steele. You were
great yesterday.

Coming up – the white supremacist leader who influenced the
Charleston shooter also contributed campaign money, dollars, to
Republicans, including four of the guys who are now running for president.
My big question – what is it about the Republican Party that this guy
likes so much?

Plus, the big vote today by the Senate to back President Obama and
deliver a signature achievement of his presidency, the Pacific trade deal.

And it`s clown car Tuesday. And in the driver`s seat this week,
Donald Trump. He`s got all the seats.

`And `Let Me Finish” with why Eleanor Roosevelt deserves to be on U.S.


This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.



MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Well, the Charleston massacre
has re-exposed an ugly vein of racism, of course, and some troubling
political ties out there on the right. In his reported manifesto, gunman
Dylann Roof says he was inspired by the writings and research of the white
supremacist group called the Council of Conservative Citizens.

He writes, quote, “At this moment, I realized that something was very
wrong.” He`s talking about the country.

That group is run by Earl Holt III, a man who had spewed – as spewed
some of the foulest hatred you`re ever going to read. A few years ago, in
an on-line comment thread, he used the user with his name – with the same
name wrote, quote, “The real enemy is Africanus criminalis, the laziest,
stupidest and most criminally inclined race in the history of the world.”
That`s Earl Holt talking there.

When President Obama was elected in 2008, the same man wrote this on
his group`s Web site. “I never dreamed that even a nation of dolts,
gamblers, borrowers and personal injury plaintiffs would elect a phony
Negro with three Muslim names and a Marxist agenda.” That`s Earl Holt

As he was promoting white supremacy, Holt and his group were also
promoting Republican candidates. In the last few years, he – that man
you`re looking at – contributed at least $70,000 to dozens of Republicans,
including presidential hopefuls like Rick Santorum, Rand Paul, Scott
Walker, Ted Cruz.

The party now finds itself scrambling to distance itself from Holt and
his group, of course, and every one of those politicians has rejected
Holt`s money now by donating it to charity – now.

Richard Cohen is the president of Southern Poverty Law Center, an
advocacy organization that tracks hate groups like this. Howard Fineman
here is, of course, global editorial director at the HuffingtonPost.

I want to go to Richard first on this. Give us a sense of this group,
this Council – is this the successor to the notorious White Citizens
Councils that grew up after – after Reconstruction, or during


Chris. They were built, in fact, on the mailing lists of the old White
Citizens Councils. At one point in the late `90s, early 2000s, they
boasted about 15,000 members, including many, many prominent Republican
office holders.

MATTHEWS: Why do they like the Republican Party? I know it`s a basic
question, but I need to hear it.

COHEN: Well, I mean, I think the real question is why does the
Republican Party like them so much during that time? It was part of the
Southern strategy. People like Trent Lott routinely spoke at their
conferences. And for the people involved in the Council, well, the
Republican Party, they were the most conservative game in town.

MATTHEWS: What about this guy Scalise of Louisiana, the guy who`s in
leadership now? Didn`t he speak to one of those groups?

COHEN: I believe so. That`s correct. He claims, of course, like all
of them, that he didn`t know what he was talking to. It`s just such a
common refrain that you hear.

But can you imagine Trent Lott or Haley Barbour going to a group and
not knowing anything about them? They have got better advance people than

MATTHEWS: Well said.

Southern Republicans are no stranger to the group, as you point out,
Richard. In fact, in 1993, Arkansas` Lieutenant Governor Mike Huckabee
spoke to a group, the group`s convention by videotape. In 1998, then
Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott, you mentioned, and Bob Barr addressed
the group`s convention.

In 2004, Haley Barbour, then a candidate for governor in Mississippi,
posed with CCC staff at a barbecue. There he is.

Howard, let`s talk about the Republican Party`s problem here. They
have got this on their fingers here. They have got a connection with a guy
who inspired a guy who shot nine people.

is the nightmarish other side of the Southern strategy. Just a little
history for a second. The South was Democrat for decades.


MATTHEWS: The solid South.

FINEMAN: The solid South.

And then the civil rights movement happened. It caused a depth charge
in the South. Eventually, the Republicans led by Richard Nixon saw the
chance to take the South from the Democrats and make the South the base of
a new Republican Party. And that, in fact, has been the case consistently
from the late `60s and early `70s through to today, pretty much, except for
places like Virginia and North Carolina occasionally around the perimeter,
the solid South for the Republicans.

And in the old days, it used to be considered almost shrewd that they
would play to the edges of this. Ronald Reagan in 1980, one of the first
campaign stops of the fall of 1980 for Ronald Reagan was at the Neshoba
County Fair in Philadelphia, Mississippi, right down the road from where
some civil rights workers had been killed. That symbolism was…


MATTHEWS: Chaney and the other two guys.

FINEMAN: That symbolism was not lost on anybody in the South.


MATTHEWS: So, you think that that was seen as…

FINEMAN: That was dog whistle politics.



FINEMAN: That was foghorn politics. People called him on it at the
time. But that`s 30 years ago in American politics. We are a different
country. We`re a multicultural country. We`re a country of many races,
not just the black/white story.

And the Southern strategy is now coming to haunt the Republicans. And
if they don`t find a way to disengage themselves from it, they have got no
chance of winning a presidential election, none.

MATTHEWS: As I mentioned, Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, Rick Santorum, and
Scott Walker are donating the money they got from Holt, this racist, to
charity. They`re doing it now.

In a statement, Rick Santorum said: “I abhor the sentiments Mr. Holt
has expressed. These statements and sentiments are unacceptable, period,
end of sentence.”

A spokesman for Ted Cruz said – quote – “Senator Cruz believes that
there`s no place for racism in society. Upon learning about Mr. Holt`s
background and his contributions to the campaign, he immediately instructed
that all those donations be returned.”

Richard, what do you think about that? Should politicians be aware?
Should a bell go off when they get money from this Council of Conservative

COHEN: Well, sure. But we don`t know if any of them really knew
where the money was from.

It says something about this Holt character, where he wants to put his
cash, but I`m not sure what it tells us about the Republican Party
candidates, other than that they`re his favorites. Let me make one other
point very quickly, Chris.


MATTHEWS: I want to stop you there, because they want to know – why
does he give money to people if he doesn`t agree with them?



COHEN: Oh, no, I`m sure he does agree with them. But I`m not sure
that one can blame them for that.

MATTHEWS: What does he like about Republicans on race? What does he
like about Republicans on race?


COHEN: Well, they`re the most acceptable candidates to a racist like
him. I mean, that`s what it tells you. And the Supreme Court has said
that money is speech, and he spoke very loudly, $70,000 worth.

The one point I wanted to add is that Nikki Haley in 2013 was tainted
a bit by the Council. One of the persons who is on her reelection steering
committee, a fellow named Roan Garcia-Quintana, himself was a Council board
member. So, the Council is absolutely interested in having a foot not just
in an extremist world, but also in the foot of mainstream politics. And
that`s a dangerous thing, obviously.


FINEMAN: Chris, I think that the Republican Party now would like to
get away from their own history, the sordid part of the Southern strategy.

But, like Banquo`s ghost, this guy is haunting them. I think he`s
contributing partly because he wants to say, uh-uh, don`t forget about us.
We`re a part of your coalition. He`s doing it for his own credibility to
try to latch on to a Republican Party that`s desperately, I think
increasingly going to be trying to get away from them.

But whether they can get away from the last 30 or 40 years of their
own history is a question that is going to be looked at in this campaign.

MATTHEWS: You know, it`s a sad – it`s not your bailiwick, Richard,
but it`s ours, Howard and mine, that the weird politics of the Republican
Party, which has been to scramble after the droppings of the other party.

Like, they go after whites who are angry about black advance. They go
after anti-gay people because of same-sex marriage, because they find –
they go for what`s left over, politically. And that`s not how you build a



MATTHEWS: Anyway, thank you so much, Richard Cohen.


MATTHEWS: You`re the expert on this subject.

COHEN: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Howard Fineman, great to hear from you.

FINEMAN: Thank you. Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Up next, police may be closing in on those escaped killers,
maybe. The chase is getting hot, of course. We have got a DNA expert here
who is going to tell us exactly what clues the investigators are tracking
as they hunt these guys down perhaps to the finish now.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.


Searchers in Upstate New York are intensifying the manhunt for two
convicted killers who broke out of prison 18 days ago. Hundreds of
searchers with dogs and helicopters are now focusing their attention on a
densely wooded area filled with wild animals, mosquitoes, ticks and daily
downpours, drenching both law enforcement and the desperate murderers
themselves that they`re going after.

Anyway, over the weekend, a hunter spotted a man running away from
that cabin we`re looking at in the village of Owls Head 20 miles from the
prison. Sources familiar with the investigation tell NBC News the DNA
recovered in that isolated cabin match both convicted murderers and that
David Sweat and Richard Matt are likely to still be together.

And in an exclusive interview with NBC News, Lyle Mitchell, the
husband of the prison worker accused of helping the inmates escape, says
his wife, Joyce Mitchell, is lucky to be alive today. Joyce Mitchell was
supposed to drive the getaway car, but reportedly got cold feet.


MATT LAUER, CO-HOST, “THE TODAY SHOW”: And if she had gone in that


within half-an-hour, I figure. She would just – get away, they were going
to kill her, they were, and all they wanted was that vehicle.


MATTHEWS: Lyle Mitchell has not been charged with anything, and his
lawyer says he`s cooperated with authorities.

Joyce Mitchell was – has pleaded not guilty to supplying tools to
help with the escape. Prosecutors tell NBC News that Mitchell told police
she smuggled hacksaw blades, drill bits and a hole punch into the prison by
embedding the items in ground beef. Officials say it`s not uncommon for
prisoners to have hot plates in their cells to grill their own hamburgers.

Well, joining me right now with the latest is MSNBC`s Adam Reiss in
Owls Head, New York, and Michael Baird, the expert – an expert on DNA
evidence from Cincinnati.


First to Adam for the news.

What`s going on right now? We`re hearing about a lot of activity up

ADAM REISS, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, officials believe that DNA
evidence they found on Saturday, and now we have learned underwear found in
that same cabin, are their best leads so far.

They want to take advantage of those leads, secure this perimeter and
make sure they don`t leave this area. Now, about two hours ago, they got a
tip. We saw cars racing by here to about an area two miles from here.
It`s called Mountain View. It`s a little lake area, some small cabins.
They swarmed the area. There were choppers overhead, but they came up

But they still believe these guys are together, they`re on foot
somewhere in this area in the Adirondack Mountains, very difficult terrain.
The sheriff here told us that it`s very difficult. There`s streams.
There`s – the underbrush is very difficult to walk through. They`re
probably cold and wet and tired and hungry, which makes them even more
desperate and dangerous – Chris.

MATTHEWS: How cold does it get up there this time of year in that

REISS: Well, it drops pretty bad. It`s maybe 70 or 80 during the
day, dropping to 50. It`s been raining continuously for the past several
days. A week ago, it was raining. Two weeks ago, it was raining. So this
area has been drenched on an almost daily basis.

So the conditions out there, you can bet, not only are uncomfortable
for the escapees, but for the searchers, very uncomfortable conditions out
in the forest, in the area here, in the mountains of the Adirondacks.

MATTHEWS: Is the assumption that they have burrowed down deep into
the terrain, avoiding large being exposed on swathes of open land, or that
they`re on the run? Are we assuming they`re moving or that they`re hiding

REISS: Well, there`s certainly a lot of places that they could hide
here. There`s small cabins.

The sheriff the a little hunting cabin where the DNA was found. It`s
just a small little hut. There might be a table, there might be a little
kitchenette, there might be a bed. There are plenty of places like that
here in this area, places where people don`t really come. There are plenty
of people who live here year-round, but there are many of these places that
the people only come during the summer, maybe on weekends, plenty of places
they could hole up for days, maybe weeks on end before being identified.


MATTHEWS: Adam Reiss, thank you very much for MSNBC.

Let`s go to Michael Baird, a DNA expert.

What do you think, Michael, they have their hands on right now, the
authorities, that they`re looking at, trying to figure out these guys and
where they`re going?

MICHAEL BAIRD, DNA EXPERT: It sounds like they have a lot of evidence
that they can utilize, including a jug of water, some underwear, socks,
boots, even items that may have been touched in the cabin. All those items
could be used for DNA testing, and once they establish that the profile
matches one or both of the individuals, they basically identify that they
have been there.

MATTHEWS: Is this certitude? Is this pretty close to human certitude
that it`s them?

BAIRD: Yes, it really is.

I mean, DNA is a unique identifier. It will determine the profile
that only that person will have, no one else in the world. So DNA
technology has gotten to the point where it can uniquely identify an
individual, to the exclusion of everyone else.

MATTHEWS: And how do they get their records? How did we match it up?
Do they have – do all prisoners get – have DNA samples now, they have to
provide them under – because they`re incarcerated; they have to give up a
DNA sample?

BAIRD: Yes. That`s correct, Chris.

When someone`s convicted of certain crimes, including felonies, a
sample will be taken from that individual, a DNA profile generated, and
that profile will be kept on file, on record. There`s a database called
CODIS that`s maintained by the FBI.

And any time a crime is committed, they don`t know who it is, they can
determine the profile of the evidence at the crime scene and then compare
it back to that CODIS database. So, they would know the profile of those
two individuals.


MATTHEWS: Boy, that is powerful information here, powerful

Thank you so much, Michael Baird, on DNA evidence.

Up next: The Senate votes to bail out President Obama on trade.
They`re going to work for him. That`s coming up in the roundtable, big win
for the president.

Plus, Donald Trump at the wheel of the right-wing clown car. It is
clown car Tuesday.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.



The storm system that spawned tornadoes across the Midwest is moving
here, threatening millions of residents from the Ohio Valley to Maine.
There have been ground stops at multiple airports, including Baltimore,
Dulles, Philadelphia and Reagan National – now back to HARDBALL.


important day for our country. We have demonstrated we can work together
on a bipartisan basis to achieve something that is extremely important for
America. This has been a long and rather twisted path to where we are
today, but it`s a very, very important accomplishment for the country.



MATTHEWS: Who would have known?

Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was Majority Leader Mitch McConnell earlier today handing
President Obama a major victory for his second-term agenda. The U.S.
Senate brought the president`s trade package back from the dead today,
voting 60-37 to break a filibuster and clear the way for passage of the
Trade Promotional Authority, otherwise known as fast track, and to be
signed by the president – he is going to sign this thing this week.

President Obama needs fast track to push through his massive 12-nation
trade deal, the Trans-Pacific Partnership. If completed, the trade deal
would become a cornerstone in Mr. Obama`s domestic and global legacy, of

But anti-trade Democrats who oppose the president made their
displeasure with the results of the vote known today. Here`s one.


SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D), OHIO: This is a day of celebration in the
corporate suites in this country, to be sure, because they have got another
corporate-sponsored trade agreement.

We make decisions here today that throw people out of work. We know
that. Across the political spectrum, that`s acknowledged. But we today
don`t do anything to help those workers that lose their jobs. So we make a
decision, throw people in Mansfield, Ohio, and Cleveland, Ohio, out of
work, but then we don`t take care of the workers that lost their jobs
because of our decisions. It`s shameful, Mr. President.

supported by virtually every major corporation in this country, the vast
majority of whom have outsourced millions of jobs to low-wage countries all
over the world. This trade agreement is supported by Wall Street.

This trade agreement is supported by the pharmaceutical industry.
This agreement was opposed by every union in this country working for the
best interests of working families.

In my view, this trade agreement will continue the policies of NAFTA,
CAFTA, permanent normal trade relations with China, agreements that have
cost us millions of decent-paying jobs.



MATTHEWS: Well, joining the roundtable right now is Michelle Bernard,
the president of the Bernard Center. Sam Stein is political editor of The
Huffington Post. And Susan Page is Washington bureau chief for “USA

Susan, I just want to know how he carves this thing up. The president
wins. Winning is also always better, I`ve experienced – that`s my
experience in life.


MATTHEWS: He wanted the trade deal as part of his legacy, like his
legacy of going to Cuba, of opposing Keystone. You can see his legacy
building what he`s doing right now. In this case, his partner was Mitch
McConnell and John Boehner. He didn`t get any help from the Democrats.

SUSAN PAGE, USA TODAY: Well, he got some Democratic support.

MATTHEWS: Thirteen Democratic senators, about 28 in the House, it
looks like. And I`m just wondering, I want to ask the first question –
what`s your reaction generally?

PAGE: I think it`s a big victory for President Obama. This is one of
the few big things he was hoping to do in the final two years of his term.
This, the Iran deal, which we see coming ou, and Obamacare surviving the
Supreme Court. All these things we`re going to know in the next week.

So, I think there`s no way you can say that`s not a victory. It was
at the expense of his friends.

MATTHEWS: Were they his friends on this?

PAGE: Well, they weren`t in his friends on this. But if –


MATTHEWS: Well, what do you make of this – I want to move it around

Michelle, you have feelings.


PAGE: Unlike Sam. Unlike you.

MATTHEWS: The president says he was hurt. He`s not exactly a sharing
kind of guy –


MATTHEWS: – like the vice president is.

He says, I`m hurt by the fact you think I don`t care about the working
person in this country. And he doesn`t understand why the labor unions
were able to gin up all this hatred and anger against this bill, when he
though, he thinks it is good for labor. It`s good for America.

BERNARD: Yes. Well, I agree with Susan. I think this is a huge
victory for the president for all of the reasons that we discussed. I
think if you go back and look at what Bill Clinton went through when they
were trying to push through NAFTA, none of this could have been a surprise
to the president. He had to have known what was coming his way and what
can you do other than expect him to say. How could you think this about
me? I am a man of the people.


BERNARD: That`s just natural. It`s normal rhetoric. But it`s a huge
– look, if Bill Clinton could get through NAFTA and President Obama was
not able to get this deal done, I think it would have really harmed his
legacy. He needs so much more than Obamacare to –



MATTHEWS: Bill Clinton was for this. I heard him say it. Hillary
Clinton was for it 125 times, whatever. So I know she has to steer around
this a bit because of labor`s influence in the party and she`ll need them
come next November. I understand the politics of her position. But Bill
Clinton`s for this thing. What do you say about this thing, Sam?

SAM STEIN, THE HUFFINGTON POST: Well, I mean, there`s been a
longstanding rift within the Democratic Party over this type of economic
policy, the new Democrats are the traditional labor line Democrats.

MATTHEWS: Who wins and loses when you have free trade?

STEIN: Well, it really honestly depends on who is the president,

MATTHEWS: No, no, no. I mean, in the region –



MATTHEWS: You just look at – Virginia is sure for this –

STEIN: The coasts and the cities will win on this one. And to be
honest, the industrial Midwest will probably lose, and that`s just the way
it`s been. And the problem it`s the way it`s been for generations now.

And this president has, you know, it`s not just with trade. I mean,
the buildup of the disappointment within the union circles with Obama
extends well into his early years when he couldn`t get the Employee Free
Choice Act over the finish line where in the Obamacare –


MATTHEWS: What`s that?

STEIN: It was –

BERNARD: The card check, yes.

STEIN: The card check, allowing more vehicles for easier
unionization, stuff like that where he promised – he made these lofty
promises. Even in the Affordable Care Act, unions had disappointments with
some of the policies there.

So, there has been a buildup of discontent with Obama within the union
community. It bubbled over here. But, you know, the truth is they were
always going to be discontented –

MATTHEWS: Well, let`s go to the facts of the union. I mean,
everybody`s self-interest. I`m not knocking anybody for self-interest.
The unions – they have about a million and a half manufacturing jobs
organized right now, in the whole country of 300-some million. So, it`s
really on their last legs. They`re fighting for their lives.

PAGE: Well, they make the argument this will cost wages for
manufacturing workers and that will affect every member they have,
including all these service employees

MATTHEWS: It will bring down wages.

PAGE: It will bring down wages and that will hurt workers everywhere,
even workers that are not – those whose jobs are not directly tied.

BERNARD: But the counter argument more that is every job that`s a
trade job, the income usually that someone has paid is normally higher.
You might lose jobs in certain part of the country, but there`s the
argument that all the jobs that are created –

MATTHEWS: The jobs you lose than the jobs you develop. The jobs you
develop are not union jobs, the most.


STEIN: And I always thought that best point that Obama had to make
was that you are essentially living with the status quo. You can let China
come in and dictate –

BERNARD: Exactly.

STEIN: – but you can let me do it. I was always curious why
Democrats weren`t more attentive to that argument, because theoretically,
the next president could come in with a Republican congress and it could be
a Republican president.

MATTHEWS: Last question, real quick, if he had gotten out there and
sold this baby, really sold it on national television, primetime, this is
about our leadership of the world, this is about China. We don`t like
China, we could beat them with that, would this work better or is this
better the cagey way he did it?

BERNARD: I think he`s smart to do it the way he did it.

STEIN: Cagey. I think he did sell it. That`s the thing. He pushed
very hard –

MATTHEWS: Well, he came here on our show to do it. I know he tried.



MATTHEWS: The roundtable is staying with us.

And up next, the clown car. Donald Trump grabs the wheel of it. This
is clown car Tuesday. He`s the man at the helm, if you will.


And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Well, new lows for New Jersey Governor Chris Christie. A
new poll from Fairleigh Dickinson has Christi`s job approval at just 30
percent, the lowest it`s ever been.

What`s worse? When the poll asked New Jersey voters whether they
dislike the governor personally, dislike his policies or dislike everything
about him, a plurality in the poll said they dislike everything about him.

Christi is expected to announce that he`s running for president in a
few weeks.

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: We`re back with the roundtable. Michelle, of course, Sam
and Susan.

When Donald Trump filed his official paperwork with the Federal
Election Commission signaling that he`s serious about his White House run.
Well, there`s already some evidence that Trump is being taken seriously by
voters in the key primary state of New Hampshire. According to a new
Suffolk University poll I mentioned, he`s in second place at 11 percent
just a bit behind Jeb Bush.

But as he ramps up his campaign, it`s worth listening to some of the
more outrageous things he`s saying. Most recently, he blamed President
Obama for the state of race relations in this country.

Here he was on FOX just last night.



DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You would have thought with
an African-American president if – at a minimum you would have thought he
would have been a cheerleader for the country and, frankly, it would have
been better. But it hasn`t worked out very well. It`s probably as bad as
it`s ever been.


MATTHEWS: I don`t know to make of that.

Anyway, Trump has been anything but a cheerleader for this country.
Instead, he`s disparaging America`s standing in the world and, ironically,
bashing those who seek opportunity here.


TRUMP: The American dream is dead.

Our country hasn`t been thinking like a winner. We`re totally on the
defense. We`re being laughed at all over the world for our stupidity.

We have to be a rich country again in order to be great. Right now,
we`re a poor country. We`re a third world country.

We`re getting people they don`t want. We`re becoming like a dumping
ground for the world. We`re a dumping ground. I say it. It`s horrible
thing to say.

We`re getting drug dealers. We`re getting sex offenders. We`re
bringing tremendous problem.


They`re bringing drugs. They`re bringing crime. They`re rapists.
And some, I assume, are good people.


MATTHEWS: Well, his wife is an immigrant. I mean, there are –
Arnold Schwarzenegger is an immigrant. What is this story about

BERNARD: He – anyone who takes him seriously should really, really,
really be ashamed. From calling Mexicans rapists to talking about the
Chinese and he says “I beat them all the time. But our politicians don`t
know what they`re doing. Some of them are good people, too, they buy my
apartments at the Trump Tower.”


MATTHEWS: Well, this tough talk, this New York street talk, will it
work with the peeps? The people out there, when they actually go vote,
when they vote for him for president of the United States, except to gig
the system perhaps when they vote for him?

PAGE: You don`t take him seriously as a nominee. You do take him
seriously as someone who could have a voice in the debate. He came in
second in that New Hampshire poll. That`s not –

MATTHEWS: What does it tell you?

PAGE: It tells you there are some voters who find it appealing and
he`s also employment security for fact checkers.

MATTHEWS: Here we go. When it comes to defeating ISIS in the Middle
East, Trump`s tragedy is to simply take their oil. Let`s watch this.



TRUMP: You take away the oil. You take away the wealth. You take
away the money. They`re building a hotel in Syria. ISIS is building a
hotel. Do you believe they here in the hotel business? They`re competing
with me.


You go in and take the oil. We should have never given it up. They
should have listened to me. Never given it up.



MATTHEWS: OK, would you explain that take the oil? It`s underground,
first. It`s way underground. How do you take it?

STEIN: You build the world`s biggest straw, you suck it out. You
take it and you move it to Mexico then you put a tariff on it, Chris.

MATTHEWS: He later clarified on ABC that he would actually bomb those
oil fields. That`s how he wants to take them.


TRUMP: You have to go in and take the oil. You kill them at the
head. It`s over. They took the oil from Iraq.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: So, you bomb the oil fields?


TRUMP: I would bomb the hell out of them. I`d bomb the fields.


MATTHEWS: Trump has also made it perfectly clear he doesn`t think
very highly of his Republican opponents.


TRUMP: I don`t like a lot of these people. It`s not even like. I
don`t respect some of these people. They shouldn`t even be running for
office. They have no right to run for office.

And then I read I shouldn`t be on the same stage with some governor
who is a nothing or a senator who`s a nothing. I`m not saying that a
senator`s nothing or a governor`s – I`m just saying some of these people
shouldn`t be on the stage. You go to the best college and you do great and
then all of a sudden you`re not supposed to be on the stage and you have
other people that frankly can`t shine your shoes and it`s OK for them to be
on it.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, he`s the only Republican so far to use a four-
letter word on the stump. Here he was in South Carolina Freedom Summit
last month.


TRUMP: Here`s what`s going happen. The lobbyists will come and see
me but I don`t gave (EXPLETIVE DELETED) about lobbyist, OK?




MATTHEWS: All told, Trump has made it perfectly clear he`s at the
wheel of the right wing clown car for 2016. Run through his impact on this
campaign, starting with the debates in August? What was his impact? It
will probably be in the top ten.

BERNARD: Well, the impact will be that people will find him
interesting and it will give Democrats – I think I saw “National Review
Online” might have said Donald Trump is winning the election for the
Democrats. That will give Democrats a very big good idea –

MATTHEWS: Not to compare the too, but my colleague, Al Sharpton,
several cycles ago didn`t win but he did dominate a lot of those debates.
Is that what`s going to be like, a different kind of guy?

STEIN: I think, listen, I think he is, obviously, bombastic.

MATTHEWS: He dominates the debates?

STEIN: And he will have an effect, a very aggressive effect. But I
foresee another candidate in the field getting his moment or potentially
her moment by calling him out.

MATTHEWS: Who`s going to call him, who`s going to knock his lights

STEIN: It remains to be –

MATTHEWS: That will be the Sister Soulja moment of the millennium.

STEIN: And people will applaud.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, Michelle Bernard, we are with you. Sam Stein,
we`re with you. And thank you, Susan Page.

When we return, let me finish with why Eleanor Roosevelt deserves to
be on U.S. currency. Eleanor Roosevelt. You`re watching HARDBALL, the
place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with a recommendation for the first
woman to appear on U.S. currency, Eleanor Roosevelt.

To the generations of Americans who lived through the Great
Depression, to the millions of the people her husband called the forgotten
men, the name personifies the faith Americans would have restored in their
government, in their country. For all the horrors of the 1930s, there was
one person out there demanding relief. For the husband who could not walk,
there was a wife who could and did, visiting coal mine, migrant cramps, the
homes of sharecroppers and all those New Deal projects.

Eleanor was his eyes and ears, Franklin said, and conscience, too. It
was Mrs. Roosevelt who made sure Mr. Roosevelt`s project went to where the
need was worst. It was Mrs. Roosevelt who took a stand for African-
Americans, most dramatically when the Daughters of the American Revolution
barred singer Marion Anderson from performing at Constitution Hall,
resigning her membership from the DAR right then and there.

She championed civil rights, lobbied against the poll tax, pushed for
a living wage. And she didn`t quit there. As FDR`s widow, she carried on
his commitment to the United Nations, helping to write the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights.

As the U.S. Treasury moves to recognize an American woman, Eleanor
Roosevelt, a recognized partner in the most successful presidency of modern
times, would be the perfect citizen to honor.

And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.



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