Floyd killing TRANSCRIPT: 5/29/20, All in w/ Chris Hayes
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: And I`ll be joining Lawrence O`Donnell tonight at
10:00 p.m. And we`ll be back here tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. for “A.M. JOY.” So
much to do. “ALL IN” with Chris Hayes is up next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Tonight, on ALL IN. America in crisis under Donald
Trump. A raging pandemic protests around the country defining the failures
of this presidency. Senator Cory Booker on this moment and how to find our
Plus, Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison on the murder charge for the
Minneapolis police officer, Alicia Garza from Black Lives Matter, Dr.
Ashish Jha on the increase from infections and new hotspots. And Adam
Serwer on whether there could possibly be a worse person in the Oval Office
right now. When ALL IN starts right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. As the pandemic
descended on the country, in our government, and our president just utterly
failed to protect us, it felt like we had entered by far the worst phase of
the Trump presidency. Something even worse, darker, more dangerous than
what had come before it. And yet somehow, somehow, the last few days have
felt even worse.
Unrest in the streets of Minneapolis, the police station burned down last
night as a community responded with grief and outrage and anger to the
killing of George Floyd. The indelible, enraging image of that white police
officer with his knee on the neck of a black man who was saying “I can`t
breathe” until his life was snuffed out his hands in his pockets.
We learned today that the officer allegedly had his knee on Floyd`s neck
for two minutes and 53 seconds after Floyd became nonresponsive, keeping
his knee on his neck, all that time as he was dying. And as a nation
grapples with yet another killing of a black American by a police officer
and masses of people once again take to the streets across the country
tonight in protest, the background condition is that the pandemic is still
out there. It hasn`t gone anywhere. It hasn`t stopped in any real way.
While different places are opening up, there are still places where the
virus is surging, including in George Floyd`s home state of Minnesota. And
you cannot find someone worse at this moment to be president than the
person we have. The man who tweeted last night that “when the looting
starts, the shooting starts, a callback to a racist line from a police
chief in the 1960s, as well as infamous segregationist George Wallace who
used that phrase in his 1968 presidential campaign.
I should note that Trump kind of tried to walk that back today, sort of,
from a press conferences afternoon where he suddenly departed without
taking a single question from reporters who shouted questions about the
situation in Minnesota as he walked away, having announced the U.S. is
pulling out of the World Health Organization in the midst of a pandemic.
Trump then later read from a prepared statement expressing sympathy for the
Floyd family, also vowing that “law and order will prevail.”
The President`s approach to this comes as zero surprise to anyone who`s
followed his trajectory from birtherism, to his demonization of immigrants,
to his defense of white supremacist protesters in Charlottesville to his
literally instructing police officers to violently abused people in their
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Like when you guys put
somebody in the car and you`re protecting their head, you know, the way you
put their hand, like, don`t hit their head and they`ve just killed
somebody, don`t hit their head. I said, you could take the hand away, OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: What a funny riff. The person with the country`s most important job
is the worst person imaginable for this moment. And it just feels today
over the last 48 hours like something is breaking in front of us, or even
more correctly, that things that have been broken for a very, very long
time or somehow getting more broken.
The country in the a once in a century capitalism, 40 million people out of
work in 10 weeks. We`ve never seen that before. More than 1.7 million
infected by the virus, 103,000 dead over the course of just about three
months. And the dead and the sick are disproportionately African American,
Latino people, people on the frontlines have to work, driving buses in
Detroit, or meatpacking. They`ve been hit hardest by the pandemic. The
exact same fellow Americans disproportionately that die at the hands of the
And we have a president whose entire political career, all of it, revolves
around berating and demonizing and insulting that same group of our fellow
Americans. Without any leadership, it is left to everybody else to do what
we can in favor of justice and democracy to just kind of soldier on day by
That`s how things have been now for years, for particularly months in the
pandemic, whether that`s the small things that we do to protect ourselves
from the virus and the choices that we try to make to protect loved ones,
and our fellow citizens, were to protest the outrageous injustice of a man
dead at the hands of the state amidst a pandemic crowded around other
people which itself is a risk. Just as we`re all trying to wrestle through
this to try to do our best.
Those protests continued across the nation today. They appear to have had
some effect. Today, the ex-Minneapolis police officer who held his knee on
George Floyd`s neck as he was dying, Derek Chauvin, was arrested charged
with manslaughter and third-degree murder. Hennepin County Attorney Mike
Freeman said the investigation of the other three officers present was
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE FREEMAN, HENNEPIN COUNTY ATTORNEY: It`s the fastest we`ve ever charged
a police officer, OK. Normally these cases can take nine months to a year.
We have to charge these cases very carefully because we have a difficult
burden of proof.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Joining me now for what we have witnessed in Minneapolis, what we`ve
heard from the White House, Senator Cory Booker, Democrat of New Jersey.
Senator, I was anxious to talk to you tonight because I think you have a
lot of experience thinking about all this, about policing, particularly
when you`re in the mayor of Newark, particularly the ways that we talk to
each other and about each other and protest. What do you think? How have
you felt just personally watching what`s unfolded over this week?
SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): You know, it`s gut-wrenching, and it`s deeply
painful. And I think what`s painful about it is the frustration that yet
another black man has died, unarmed black man at the hands of police
officers. And immediately the rightful thing were outraged about this
But I`ve seen this pattern play out where you see an uproar of outrage, but
then we get back into a regular system where we don`t understand that this
is not a sometimes thing. This kind of racism, this kind of bigotry is so
institutionalized that it puts so many of our fellow countrymen and women
at risk every day.
And it`s our criminal justice system, which I know you know so much about,
but it`s our healthcare system as well with black women dying four times
the rate in childbirth than white women. It`s in our environment as well.
Still race is the best indicator if you are going to live around a toxic
environment or toxic dump.
We have deep problems in our country, and what is heartbreaking to me is
the utter lack of urgency to do something about it. We know that there are
practical things we can do to create deeper accountability, transparency,
and frankly, policing in this country to improve it and bring it into the
Indeed, President Obama had an entire task force that came up with dozens
of recommendations, none of which we`ve seen on the federal level put into
place. And so, I see a lot of consternation right now. A lot of people
talking about the protesters and talking about some of the violence that`s
going on. And I condemn violence in every form. But God bless America.
Can`t we realize that we also need to condemned the conditions that make
such protest, such outrage, such irregular thing in our country?
HAYES: You`ve spoken a lot, I think, sort of thematically, both in your
public life and during your presidential campaign and as a senator about
kind of trying to find common ground. And it`s been interesting to watch
the development of the story, which I`ve seen this before. I remember
actually, this happened with Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman, which is
at the beginning of the initial response was actually quite sort of
I mean, people watch that video and thought that that`s wrong. I`ve seen
Conservatives say that, I`ve seen Liberals say that, I`ve seen all sorts of
people say that. They look at that video, they say this is wrong. That`s
unjust and wrong and terrible.
And then as time goes on, this sort of sorting happens. You see
conservative media particularly conservative politicians talking about the
looting or the rioting or burning buildings and that`s the – that becomes
the focus, and liberals and others talk about racial injustice and racial
equity. Like, what is your reaction to watching that sorting happening,
particularly when it is encouraged so explicitly and so grossly by the
BOOKER: Well, the President doesn`t surprise me. There`s nothing he can do
anymore that can surprise me, shock me. He`s incapable of breaking my
heart. But I am a big believer. I say all the time. If America hasn`t
broken your heart, you don`t love her enough because there are deep and
And look the reality for issues like this as time goes on beyond this is
going to be the test of whether we understand that peace is not merely the
absence of violence, it`s the presence of justice. And so many people are
living in this – in this country without peace, with every single day
I thought a lot about this last day or two about just my regret that I am
now – it`s been 30, 40 years since my parents had this conversation with
me, where there was fear in their eyes. When I realized that my parents, my
heroes, were afraid of police officers, and I had that conversation.
I wish we lived in a nation that 30-plus years later, there weren`t still
hundreds of thousands of parents feeling like they have to teach their
black boys about how not to get killed by police. And so there`s a
consensus, and I know this from friends of mine on the other side of the
aisle, that hey, they know racism exists, but I`m not a racist.
The question if racism exists is not are you or are you not a racist, it`s
are you or are you not doing something about racism? Because racism and the
toxins that promote such injustice as in our society, don`t just go away.
You have to be – it`s not enough not to be a racist, as Angela Davis said,
you have to be anti-racist. You have to be actively confronting the truth
within our society raising it up so there can be a deeper healing. And
finding a constructive language for our country to have conversations not
only after some horrific act of violence, but in the aftermath of that to
prevent more acts of violence to come.
We have – we have work to do in this nation to heal and to come together
and to realize we belong to each other and we need each other. But right
now, the data that we see from employment information all the way to the
marijuana laws were no difference between blacks or whites for using the
drug, but there was – there was a more marijuana arrest in 2017 than all
violent crime arrests combined. And blacks were four times more likely to
be arrested for it.
So these are our data points that do not speak to the heart and the
grievous realities that each one of those data points impact the lives of
people who are being destroyed, who can`t get a job, can`t get a loan from
the bank for doing things to the last three presidents admitted to doing.
And so there has to be people right now who are sitting at home watching
this, watching what`s going in, they cannot allow their inability to do
everything about the problem of racism in America, to stop them from doing
something more than they did in the last stretch since the last videotape
captured, what is a regular occurrence in America. If you are not changing,
then nothing will change in this country.
HAYES: Senator Cory Booker who joins us from his hometown of Newark, New
Jersey tonight, where he was the mayor, oversaw that police department.
They`re putting in place some very interesting reforms that he could read
up on and is now the senator from New Jersey. Senator, as always, thank you
for your time.
BOOKER: No, thank you. And you have been our truth-teller on this issue,
even when it was not comfortable and convenient or the news of the day, and
that`s what we need right now, Chris. So thank you for pushing this. And
let`s make sure three or four months from now, it doesn`t just pass from
the headlines. I hope you and I can continue to be agents to inspire the
consciousness of others so we can do something really about this and make
HAYES: Thank you, Senator.
BOOKER: Thank you.
HAYES: Joining me now for more on the arrest of the former Minneapolis
police officers is Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison. And Attorney
General, let me – let me first get your response. I mean, it`s sort of a
whiplash experience. Yesterday, Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman
saying, look, this takes time. We have to sort through this. Today, they
announced the arrest. Your response.
KEITH ELLISON, ATTORNEY GENERAL, MINNESOTA: Well, I think that one of the
things all the protesters have been calling for is an arrest and a charge.
In this case, that has happened. You know, murder in this particular degree
of it carries with it a statutory maximum of 25 years. There is a guideline
– recommended sentence, presumptive sentence of somewhere between 12 and a
half to 15 years. This is a serious charge with serious time associated
And the investigation is ongoing. There`s a parallel federal investigation.
But even with all that, with the discharge of the officers – the four
officers` discharge, the ongoing investigation against the other three,
that`s still not going to be enough to make people feel like we are on the
road to a more just Minnesota.
So we need to really dig into the structural change, implement those core
police reforms and other reforms. And that`s what I`m committed to tonight
and into the future.
HAYES: I want to ask your – just to get your reaction to – and I
understand obviously, as the attorney general, there are some things that
you sort of can`t say or interfere. But there`s a – there`s a medical
finding which is a very cursory and preliminary medical investigation that
is part of the charging document.
It is not a full autopsy as far as I can understand, but it`s a strange –
I mean it is a full autopsy but it`s not a full medical report. It says,
“The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of
traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health
conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart
disease. The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police,
his underlying health conditions, and any potential intoxicants in his
system likely contributed to his death.” A lot of people have found that a
very, very strange set of sentences. What do you think?
ELLISON: What I think is you find your – you take your victims as you find
them. I mean, if somebody has some sort of underlying health issue, and you
commit a crime against them, which causes their death, then you are on the
hook for that, regardless as to whether or not a healthier person would
have survived it or not.
I think that you know, you deal with your victim, as you find that victim,
and if they have some fragility, that – you shouldn`t have ever harmed him
in the first place. So, I guess I`m not as alarmed as some others might be.
But the real question is that man was breathing and talking and walking and
engaging, and pleading for help, and calling for – he pleaded for his
life, even called for his mother, said somebody was – he was going to kill
him. And then suddenly, we saw the light drained out of him as that knee
stayed firmly fixed on his neck.
So, you know, the bottom line is, yes, you know, I think that I`m not
particularly alarmed. I think that the report does not say that he – that
it was a mere coincidence that he died at the moment that that knee was
jammed into his neck. The knee played a role. And if he would have been
treated with justice and fairness, decency and respect, I think we`d have
him sitting here still.
HAYES: The National Guard has been called in. National Guard officers
arrested CNN reporters last night. They discharged them with a kind of
apology, I guess, although it seems like a truly egregious happenstance.
What do you see as your role as attorney general in the state right now in
terms of what is happening in your – in your state night after night?
ELLISON: Well, I have a – I have a technical role. And then I have, I
think, just a role as a statewide officeholder who people have been trusted
with a constitutional office and who looked to me for guidance on how our
state should go forward, along with others as well.
But that – but my technical role as attorney general is that the counties
can refer cases to me, the governor can refer cases to me. I represent the
Commission – the Commissioner of Public Safety and the Bureau of Criminal
Apprehension, which is the lead investigative organization in this
The Minneapolis police are not the investigative body here. I`m not the
primary prosecuting authority, but it`s potential that I could be. But you
know, the case is going on by now so we`re supporting those folks who are
leading that investigation and prosecution.
But beyond that, you know, I`ve done things like joined with the
Commissioner of Public Safety, to have a working group on reducing and
preventing deadly force encounters with the police. You know, I would
recommend people to read that report. It`s on my Web site. We issued it in
February 2020. Both of us are African American men, and we got into these
high political jobs.
And we said, what good is it us to be in these jobs if we don`t take on
this issue of police violence and police accountability, and so we did. And
it`s why people told us to leave that alone, because all you got to do is
make both sides mad. But we trudged on and we got through it, but we got
some great recommendations.
And now I think, you know, this tragic situation with Mr. Floyd is proof
positive that we`ve got to implement these recommendations. We`ve got to
move into implementation. And we also got to look at the pattern and
practice within the Minneapolis Police Department. I will say that the
police chief is a reformer. He`s an awesome guy. He actually had to sue for
discrimination when he – before he was the chief. But there is an
underlying culture that is very difficult for him or the mayor to deal
with. And so, I think, you know, I need to call that to attention.
HAYES: Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison, former Congressman Keith
Ellison, whose son is now a member of the city council, who he got to talk
to last night and was –
ELLISON: He`s awesome.
HAYES: He was – he was extremely, extremely impressive. Thank you,
Attorney General. I appreciate it.
ELLISON: Anytime. See you later, man.
HAYES: All right. See you. Coming up, protests around the country following
national outcry over the death of George Floyd as well as Breonna Taylor
and Ahmaud Arbery. I`ll talk to Alicia Garza, co-founder of the Black Lives
Matter Movement about what looks like what could be a tipping point moment
right after this.
HAYES: There are protests around the country tonight again over the killing
of George Floyd in police custody, although not just over that specific
incident. These protests have been building for days. There`s been a
particularly large showing in Louisville, Kentucky where Brianna Taylor, a
26-year-old EMT was killed in mid-March after police force their way into
her home in the middle of the night executing a drug search warrant. No
drugs were found and her boyfriend, a licensed gun owner, was arrested for
assault and attempted murder when he returned fire. Those charges against
him were dismissed just days ago.
We also continue to see some truly harrowing moments amidst the – amid the
mostly peaceful protests. Seven people were shocked during those same
protests in Louisville last night, unclear who was doing the shooting. On
downtown Denver yesterday, and SUV driver appears to deliberately swerved
to try and run down a protester.
Tonight, we`re seeing protests in the streets of Houston. George Floyd
hails from originally, protests in New York City where protesters took the
streets in downtown Manhattan have now crossed over into Brooklyn as well
as this powerful scene in Atlanta.
So far, this week appears to have been the largest sustained nationwide
protest against police violence in the Trump era. Joining me now is Alicia
Garza, co-founder of the Black Lives Matter Movement, who now leads Black
Futures Lab. Alicia, you and I have spoken before on this topic, and we –
you were on my podcast about it. And protests like this were so much of the
part of our national shared political and public life and struggle during
14 – 2014, 2015, 2016. They have been less present I think it`s fair to
say over the last few years. What – how do you make sense of this moment,
this week particularly, bringing people out into the streets?
ALICIA GARZA, CO-FOUNDER, BLACK LIVES MATTER: Well, I think what`s clear is
that change is still needed. And what we see when we see these kinds of
protests erupt all over the country is really a response and a reaction to
justice being delayed and denied once again. The reality is we are living
in a moment where black lives are being extinguished daily, often at the
hands of the people who are sworn to protect and serve our communities. We
have a president who is inciting violence on Twitter. And we are facing a
And frankly, we haven`t heard much at all or nearly enough about what is
the plan to, you know, change what`s happening with our carceral system,
change what`s happening with policing, and really change and improve what`s
happening in black communities across America.
The reality here is that black communities are being attacked, whether it`s
by the coronavirus or whether it`s by the very people who have been sworn
to protect and serve our communities. And there is a question on the table.
What kind of leadership in this moment will offer a proactive vision not
only to deal with the crisis of policing in our communities, but who will
provide leadership to deal with the state of emergency that our communities
are facing across a range of issues?
HAYES: How do you think about the last three years in terms of progress
that has been made? Because one of the things that I think is a story that
maybe people don`t know is that a lot of the effort and organizing that
went into Black Lives Matter protests then shifted to work around criminal
justice reform, particularly elections for prosecutors and progressive
prosecutors, all kinds of different ways in which people have attempted to
sort of concretely change the system.
What is your sense now, you know, in 2020, as we watch these images play
out, and there`s a lot of anger, a lot of anger about how effective that
has been about whether the trajectory is even right?
GARZA: Well, I`ll say this, from the very beginning, folks who were
involved in the Black Lives Matter Global Network, and also folks who are
involved in the larger movement for Black Lives had always been organizers
and advocates trying to change the rules that are rigged against our
I think when we combine the attempts to change the rules through advocacy
or legislation, with protests, it represents in upping of the ante. It
represents the kind of public pressure that is needed to change the
political will in our communities to advance some of the solutions that
organizers have been advocating for a long time. Whether it be redirecting
resources from law enforcement towards programs and things that we need to
live well, or whether it be making sure that our communities can
participate actively in the decisions that impact our lives every single
And you know, to be frank, there are – there has been some progress that
has been moved. But I can also say that under this administration, so much
of that has been dismantled. We are seeing, you know, the oversight
committees and oversight systems that have – we`re starting to get
stronger actually be dismantled.
We are seeing kind of, again, our president kind of advocate openly for
violence against our communities. But yet we haven`t seen our president
advocate and use his voice and his vast platform to encourage a speedy,
speedy process in making sure that officers who act above the law are held
Here we are, it`s you know, almost a weekend, and there are a lot of
questions about what is the political will that is needed to move this
process forward. I think what we`re seeing across the country is that
people are tired of waiting, people are tired of being told to follow the
process and go along with the system. And so this moment really calls for a
different kind of leadership. We need a proactive, strong vision for how to
make sure that not only is policing in this country being changed, but we
also need a strong and proactive vision to make sure that the state of
emergency that is facing our communities is being addressed in a proactive
and visionary way.
HAYES: Alicia Garza in Oakland, California, those images you`re seeing are
from around the country earlier this evening and there are protests around
the country that continue at this hour. Alicia, thank you so much for
making some time.
GARZA: Thank you for having me.
HAYES: Still ahead, as protests continue around the country, The Atlantic`s
Adam Serwer on why no one should be surprised when the president issues a
violent threat to demonstrators, and no one should believe him when he
tries to walk it back, next.
HAYES: The president made an announcement in the middle of the night,
tweeting out this incendiary, gross, provocative thing, basically implying
that Minneapolis protesters could be shot by the military, a tweet that
violated Twitter`s terms against glorifying violence. You have to click
past a warning message to actually read the tweet. And then another tweet
several hours he tried to walk it back. But as Adam Serwer tweeted to him,
quote, “you can`t really walk back enthusiastic expression of bloodlust.
Adam Serwer, staff writer at The Atlantic, joins me now.
In some ways it seems almost weirdly inevitable or fated that this – the -
- what Donald Trump harnessed in getting elected in 2016 would crash into
his role as president amidst protests like this.
ADAM SERWER, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: Look, when a police officer
mistreats a suspect in his custody in the United States, he`s following the
president`s explicit advice. It was 2017 that Donald Trump, you know, spoke
to an audience of police officers and said if there`s a suspect in your
custody, you don`t have to treat him too nice, you can treat him how you
So, it`s not surprising that after our president, who ran explicitly on
that kind of state violence against minorities, whose first Attorney
General Jeff Sessions explicitly said we`re not going to be investigating
police departments anymore for violating constitutional rights of Americans
that come into contact with them, and then you have his second Attorney
General William Barr saying, you know, if you criticize law enforcement you
forfeit the right to be protected by them, which turns law enforcement into
a protection racket.
And there is a theme here, which is that certain people are protected by
the law and other people are subject to the law. And that theme has been
consistent throughout Trump`s presidency. It`s not something he can walk
back in a tweet. When he said – you know, when he threatened to engage in
mass murder to prevent looting, he was expressing the theme of his campaign
from the point at which it started in 2015, which is that we are going to
take off the restraints on any kind of state violence towards these people
that you, my constituency, are afraid of.
HAYES: There is this – a lot of people put this juxtaposition, which is so
striking, which is the protesters that went into the state capitol in
Michigan to protest Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. And we all saw
those images. And they`re not – you know, it`s right, I guess it`s
protected speech, peaceable assembly sort of, but people with long guns,
you know, inside your workplace menacing you from the gallery feels like
something different than normal peaceful protests. And the president
tweeted, “the governor of Michigan should give a little and put out the
fire. These are good people, but they are angry. They want their lives back
again safely. See them. Talk to them. Make a deal.”
And then of course, you know, that juxtaposed with “these thugs are
dishonoring the memory of George Floyd. When the looting starts, the
This is exactly the theme that you keep writing about that like there are
some people the law applies to and some that it doesn`t.
SERWER: Well, look, I think obviously those are somewhat different
situations. But the reality is that the disparity that you`re describing
where you can walk into a state legislature with an automatic weapon, which
has an implied threat if you do something as a lawmaker I don`t like, then
I have a right to violently rebel against you, and say that that`s fine,
that`s just a part of political discourse, and that someone who is
protesting who doesn`t have a weapon, who is shot at with tear gas, that`s
an appropriate response, that is a reflection of the fact that there are
certain people you are simply allowed to cross the line with and everyone
knows it, and there are other people you can`t dare cross the line with
because those people have rights that are actually inviolable.
And one of the things that stuck with me about this is – and remember this
is like 2014when I went to Ferguson and I was talking to residents there,
one of them explicitly said to me, it brought up the Bundy Ranch occupation
where you had all of these, you know, right wing protesters aiming guns at
federal agents and the fact that the police, the federal agents in that
case did not escalate the conflict, they withdrew. And she said to me at
that time, she said, you know, they`re not going to treat us like that
because those people are Americans.
And I think if this is the fundamental conflict here, which is that there
are certain people who have the rights that all Americans are supposed to
have and there are other Americans who really don`t have those full rights
and you`re seeing a full expression of that right now.
HAYES: The politics of this are sort of in someways the least important
aspect of what we`re seeing play out, but interesting nonetheless and will
have big effects. Two things I`d like to get your thoughts on. One is this
headline that Trump wants to win over black voters while his base wants him
to be tough, and his base is winning. That he`s weirdly cross-pressured
even though the entirety of his political appeal to that base is all the
themes you`ve been saying.
But the fact that he walked back that tweet, that there`s like some sense
that they even have to say that what happened to George Floyd was terrible,
there does seem to be like them looking over their shoulder a little bit
here in a way I haven`t quite seen before.
SERWER: I think that very clearly the president`s campaign thinks that the
Democrats are vulnerable with a certain segment of black men and want to
appeal to that segment of black male voters. And obviously, as you noted
that`s the intention with the president`s promises to the rest of his base.
I mean, when you talk about protests and non-violent protest, the
president`s response to Colin Kaepernick`s non-violent protest of police
brutality was to essentially encourage him to be blackballed. He called him
something that I can`t repeat on television and then said that people who
protest in that way should be fired.
So, there is no actual acceptable mode protest. The moment that you
protest, when you`re protesting non-violently that`s unacceptable and then
when you protest violently, they tell you, well, why aren`t you protesting
non-violently? I mean, the answer is there is no acceptable protest to this
kind of unequal treatment that will actually move people and that the
people who are in charge will respect.
As far as the political fallout of this is concerned, I think it`s good
that the president recognizes that what happened to Mr. Floyd was an
injustice, but it is an injustice that reflects – that he did not begin,
like I want to – you know, police brutality is not something that was
invented when Trump took office in 2017, but it is something that he has
personally explicitly encouraged. And he can`t really pretend that this is
not the predictable result of that encouragement.
HAYES: Adam Serwer, whose work at The Atlantic is always a must read. Thank
you so much for your time.
SERWER: Thank you for having me.
HAYES: All right. The pandemic continues to rage. New guidance from the
Trump administration that would seem to put some of their most fervent
supporters in peril. We`ll talk about that next.
HAYES: Since the very beginning of the Coronavirus pandemic, there is a
battle in the Trump administration with experts and scientists on one side
and Trump and political lackeys on the other. And the experts have been
losing. Sometimes they win for a little bit, but then they lose.
The latest, and perhaps most egregious example of that comes from the new
federal guidelines for worshipers, right. There have been a whole bunch of
COVID-19 outbreaks that have been traced back to churches or religious
activity – people inside for long periods of time, close together.
In Arkansas, for example, a pastor and his wife appeared to have infected
33 other people who attended church events over several days with them.
Three people died.
In Virginia, a pastor who defied warnings about the dangers of church
gatherings himself contracted COVID-19 and died.
In South Korea, literally thousands of cases have been linked back to one
infected woman who went to two large church events.
And new research suggests that loud talking, yelling, singing all increase
risk of transmission, which would help explain what happened after one
single choir practice in Seattle, those folks were being responsible. They
were socially distant, but one symptomatic person infected 52 others, 87
percent of the group. Health officials called that gathering a super
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. HOWARD LEIBRAND, SKAGIT COUNTY HEALTH OFFICER: The combination of a
close group meeting and singing is very reminiscent of most church
services, so it tells us that we need to be very careful, because that`s
one of the first things that most people want to open up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Regardless of risks, Donald Trump has demanded that houses of
worship open back up. He`s even threatened to override governors to make
that happen, a power he doesn`t have.
But – so the CDC, right, is trying to carve a safer middle path for
congregations. And I understand people want to get back to church and
worship services, so for those that want to go back to worshiping in
person, the CDC basically said look, if you are going to worship in person,
maybe try not to sing, quote, “consider suspending, or at least decreasing
use of a choir musical ensembles and congregant singing, chanting or
reciting during services or other program if appropriate within the faith
Like you can have your service, but maybe just shy away from the singing if
you can that seems to create risk.
Well, we now know that political officials in the White House made the CDC
take out that recommendation, essentially intervening to increase the risk
of transmission among worshiping congregations.
I mean, think about that. The hazards of just forging ahead while ignoring
CDC guidelines are now playing out across the entire country. And we`re
going to talk about that next.
HAYES: There tend to be kind of two stories right now about where we are in
the Coronavirus crisis in this country. In the aggregate, nationwide, both
cases and deaths are sloping down, descending, as you can see on these two
graphs showing the seven day average. That is obviously good news, that`s
the right direction.
But that`s not the full story. Then the other story is the hot spots,
places where new cases are going up. As far as we can tell, not just as a
by-product of increased testing, though there is some of that as well.
We`re also seeing worrying hospitalization rates in many of these places.
And there is really no pattern to it. In parts of Minnesota, more than 90
percent of the hospital beds are full right now. Earlier this week, the
state had the highest single day increase spike in COVID intensive care
hospitalizations since the pandemic began. And that is all before any
effects we might see from large sustained crowds gathering to protest for a
week straight as we`ve seen there over the last few nights.
Then there`s Alabama, where intensive care units are overflowing in the
capital. And they hit an all-time high in the seven day average of new
cases this week there.
Mississippi hitting a similar milestone yesterday, too, 328 new reported
Now those two states reopened pretty clearly, pretty early. But California,
which remains under a stay-at-home order, although some counties have
started to partially reopen, it recorded its highest single day increase in
confirmed cases yesterday, as did Wisconsin this week, along with its
highest single day increase in deaths as the number of people hospitalized
in the state has risen steadily over the past few weeks.
And everyone is just crossing their fingers right now, as we try to figure
out what`s cause and what`s effect, and basically what we can get away
For more on this increasingly patchwork pandemic I`m joined by Dr. Ashish
Jha, director of the Harvard Global Health Institute.
And doctor, maybe I will start on images that we`ve been showing all night,
which are these protests. And, you know, some people are wearing masks,
some are not, but it`s big crowds of people. They are outdoors, which is
better than big crowds indoors. But it`s hard not to – this to go through
your mind as you are watching in the midst of this pandemic that, you know,
this does increase risk of transmission. Is that a fair assessment?
DR. ASHISH JHA, HARVARD GLOBAL HEALTH INSTITUTE: Good evening, Chris.
Yes, absolutely. As I looked at those crowd – obviously those crowds are
very focused on a different set of issues around justice and what has been
happening with police brutality – but of course you can`t help, in the
middle of the pandemic, look at that crowd, and worry about whether they
become the source for their next big outbreak.
And so that I think is an ongoing concern that all of us have as we look at
those groups of folks getting together.
HAYES: In terms of the kind of rhyme or reason – I mean, one thing, we got
this patchwork system, we`ve got states opening in different ways. And one
thing that I think – I`ve been talking to people about this, experts and
looking at data, the – it`s very hard to have some very clear like A
causes B view of it. How do you make sense of places where cases are
surging or hospitalizations are surging that are not – haven`t opened very
early, whereas places that have opened quite early don`t seem to have bad
outbreaks. Like, what`s your sort of unifying theory for what we`re seeing?
JHA: Yeah, so there`s definitely an element of like you look at the data
and you say what is going on? And I think there are a couple of things that
are worth understanding. One is the time line. And the time line is
certainly at least a couple of weeks, sometimes as much as three weeks,
between when you take action and when you might see the result.
But the other is actually the issue you are bringing up in your last story
when you were talking about the choirs in the churches. This is a very
idiosyncratic virus. We think about 10 percent of people will do about 80
percent of the spreading of the virus. And so some of what is going on is
really just some certain amount of luck – and bad luck, or good luck. You
have some place where you`ve had massive outbreaks. And we can`t at the end
of the day control that, what we can do is dramatically reduce the
likelihood of those bad things happening by giving the right advice about
churches, by managing meat plants – meat factories – I mean, meat plants
better, by managing nursing homes better.
HAYES: Today, the president announced that we were withdrawing from the
WHO. It is very strange – well, strange, a stunt obviously, but it has
real ramifications, particularly because he had written a letter with
concerns and given the WHO 30 days to address it and then he just announced
he`s pulling out 12 days later, 18 days short of that deadline.
But every public health person I`ve talked to about this says this is very,
very serious and very, very bad. What is your view about what this means?
JHA: Yeah, it is a stunning move. I suppose you could argue maybe not
surprising given the kind of saber rattling the president has been doing.
It is a very bad move. And it`s a very bad move for America.
And here is why. The WHO, you can dislike the way they dealt with China. I
have real qualms with the way they dealt in the early days with the Chinese
response. But WHO remains fundamentally important for large chunks of the
world, many, many countries rely on WHO. WHO is running the largest
clinical trial in the world, they`re managing a lot of vaccine trials. So,
the question is do we want a seat at the table or do we want to got it
And by the way, Chris, if we walk away, China and other countries are going
to be happy to step in and fill that vacuum. So, this move, I think, leaves
us much worse off. I`m puzzled why the president thinks this is a good idea
HAYES: Final question for you, an issue very near and very dear to my
heart: schools. Two contrasting bits of information on schools. South Korea
had to close schools again it had a big spike. We know South Korea did a
very good job suppressing the virus. It has had subsequent spikes.
Meanwhile, in Denmark where they reopened for I think about 22 days, if I`m
not mistaken, their version of the CDC reporting they haven`t seen schools
precipitating big outbreaks.
It seems like this is a really open and unsettled question.
JHA: It absolutely is. And as we think about the fall, and obviously, this
is a big question in my household, and in many households across the
country, and what I am saying is there a lot we can do to maximize our
chances. We can`t be 100 percent sure that we can keep schools open this
fall, but if we can keep community levels of transmission low, if we can
have great testing, if we can build in programs around social distancing in
schools, which is hard because kids love hanging out together. We can`t
guarantee it, but we can dramatically increase our chances that we can can
keep schools open this fall. And that`s what we got to do.
HAYES: This is our moonshot, Ashish we got to do this. Let`s get the
schools, let`s get them back into the schools. Love my kids, but get them
back into the schools.
JHA: My wife (inaudible) can`t even keep our schools open, what are you
HAYES: Thank you. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
JHA: Thank you.
HAYES: That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right
now. Good evening, Rachel.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
Copyright 2020 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>
Copyright 2020 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are
protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced,
distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the
prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter
or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the