Minneapolis Mayor TRANSCRIPT: 5/28/20, All In w/ Chris Hayes

Pilar Melendez, Jeremiah Ellison, Sherrilyn Ifill, Chao Xiong, Paul Butler, Phillip Atiba Goff


JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: One of the biggest challenges that this country has

faced in nearly a century, the combination of poverty and COVID-19 that`s

hitting communities of color and poor folks of all races, hitting them

hard, so please tune in for that. Thanks so much for being with us. And I

will be back here tomorrow night at 7:00 p.m. Eastern. “ALL IN” with Chris

Hayes is up next.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. At

this hour, we are monitoring the situation in Minnesota where for a third

night, there are protests in the streets over the killing of a 46-year-old

man named George Floyd who died on Monday. He died after he was handcuffed,

was pinned to the ground under an officer`s knee. The police refusing to

relent despite Floyd repeatedly saying, “I can`t breathe.”


The killing of George Floyd captured on video has ignited outrage and

protests that have continued to escalate into tonight. Floyd`s family

calling for the four officers involved in his arrest and subsequent death

to be charged with murder. And while the officers were fired within 24

hours of all this becoming public, it has been three days and still no one

has been charged.


It`s worth noting that unlike a lot of the protests we`ve seen over the

last month the, pro-Trump anti-lockdown protesters who showed up with long

guns at state capitals, the people protesting the killing of George Floyd

from the very beginning have been met preemptively by police in riot gear,

who have used tear gas and rubber bullets against the protesters.


The Justice Department and FBI have promised investigation to the four

officers involved and said it would be a top priority. The FBI held a press

conference late this afternoon which was strange to say the least. We

expected some sort of announcement. In fact, they appeared to think they

were going to do that too, possibly about charges to the officers, but then

it was delayed two hours and then when they showed up they had nothing to






enough how important it is that all your ducks are in a row before you make

that charging decision, because you can`t – you can`t undo what you`ve

done if you rush. But if you take that time, you`re going to do it right

the first time and you`re going to get it done the first time.



horrific and terrible and no person should do that. But my job, in the end,

is to prove that he violated a criminal statute. And there is other

evidence that does not support a criminal charge. Please give me and give

the United States Attorney the time to do this right, and we will bring you

justice. I promise.




HAYES: George Floyd`s killing has sparked protests across the country,

including Memphis, Los Angeles where protesters blocked a freeway. This was

the scene just a short time ago in Union Square in New York City. Police

and protesters engaged in a violent confrontation. Police is seen there

shoving protesters. The situation in Minnesota is also escalating. Some

have come out and also set fires, engaged in looting. I`m sure you`ve seen

those images.


Today, Democratic Governor Tim Walz activated the National Guard as

community leaders urge calm. We`re going to be monitoring the scene on the

ground throughout the hour and through the night – throughout the night

here on MSNBC.


Joining me now NBC News reporter Shaquille Brewster who is live in

Minneapolis where protests are taking place. Shaquille, what is the scene

there like right now?


SHAQUILLE BREWSTER, NBC NEWS REPORTER: Well, Chris, what you`ve heard from

processes and what you`ve been hearing from protesters all week long is

that they will remain protesting, they will continue to demonstrate until

the obvious solution happens, which in their minds is an arrest of the

officers involved in the death of Mr. George Floyd.


We – as you mentioned, we heard from the FBI, we heard from officials,

both dealing with the federal investigation and the state investigation,

and they didn`t have many answers. They preached and pressed and emphasized

the idea that they want to be meticulous with the investigation. They want

to be thorough. They want to make sure they have their ducks in a row. But

they said just because you may see some excessive conduct, that does not

necessarily mean it is criminal conduct and that`s what they`re trying to

thread. That`s the needle they`re trying to thread right now.


But if you talk to protesters, if you have conversations with them, and

even the family of Mr. Floyd, they`re saying that video that you saw, that

10-minute long video where you saw the officers knee on Mr. Floyd`s neck,

that`s all you needed to see. They`re saying do the investigations later.

That`s enough to arrest this officer for and have him go through criminal



Meanwhile, here on the ground in Minneapolis, the protests continue to

happen. I just want to share a bit of a conversation I had with a

protester. Remember, in Minneapolis, this is a city that has seen protests

where it`s been community and police. They`ve seen these clashes before.

Listen to what this protester told me just a couple of hours ago.




A.J. AWED, MINNEAPOLIS WARD 6 CANDIDATE: Clearly, the policing system in

America is broken. Unfortunately, this is a manifestation of long trauma

and long frustrations. I mean, these individuals aren`t, you know,

pillaging and getting angry for no reason. The underlying symptoms is the

police department in America and the policing system in Minneapolis.


We need to go ahead and completely abolish the system. We`re going to start

completely all over. Because right now it`s not in the image of the

community, to be honest.




BREWSTER: Mr. Floyd was the 11th person in the past 10 years to die in the

hands of the Minneapolis Police Department. That`s the frustration that you

hear among protesters that they`re tired of seeing this, they say. They

feel like there`s a clear divide here. This is a clear-cut case in their

minds, and they just want action to happen. And they want action to happen

immediately, Chris.


So they say they`ll be out here. They`ll continue to protest. Many of them

want to do it peacefully and that`s what we`re seeing. Behind me is a scene

where we`ve seen clashes the past couple of days, but it`s been a pretty

quiet scene. People are playing music, people are speaking their signs that

they have up. People were encouraging people to clean up some of the mess

that you saw yesterday after things really descended.


They`re saying they will continue to protest. They want it to happen

peacefully, but they will continue to protest until they see an arrest of

those officers involved. Chris?


HAYES: Just want to follow up, Shaquille. The Hennepin County Attorney Mike

Freeman, who came out today in that joint press conference with the U.S.

Attorney, you know, sort of basically saying give us time, kind of also

sort of chastising the protesters unfavorably comparing the situation to

Baltimore where Marilyn Mosby did charge those officers and then they were

subsequently acquitted. I`m just wondering if you heard reaction to what

Freeman had to say today.


BREWSTER: Not really, and I`ll tell you, you know, unlike it – this wasn`t

a major announcement. It was somewhat confusing press conference where they

said, yes, we`re going to have justice and we want justice for the family,

but give us more time and let us have this investigation. And because of

that, it`s not a scene where there`s a push alert on people`s phone and

people automatically hear what was going on.


So many of the protesters didn`t mention that. They are – their bottom

line and this is what they keep repeating every conversation I have with

someone is they just believe the officer should be arrested. They say –

and this is what you heard the mayor of Minneapolis say. He said, if this

were anyone else, if they were not a police officer, this person would be



He said if this were a black man or he said actually black men have been

put in jail for far, far, far less crime, so – or less evidence. That`s

what you hear and that`s the tone from protesters. They think that this is

simple enough that the officers involved should be arrested and that`s

their bottom line.


HAYES: All right, Shaquille Brewster who`s doing fantastic work out there

in the streets of Minnesota. Thank you very much, Shaquille.


BREWSTER: Thank you.


HAYES: I want to bring in Pilar Melendez, a reporter of The Daily Beast,

who had a great piece today titled “Cop who kneeled on George Floyd tried

to kill me in 2008” and she joins me now. The cop in question, Police

Officer Derek Chauvin has a bit of a record. You found an individual who

had been – had a run in with him so to speak. Tell me about what your

reporting said.



today that in 2008 Chauvin was one of several officers that responded to

his house for a domestic violence call. The mother of his child called the

police on him and he said that without warning, the police entered his

house, barge into his home.


He ran into the bathroom. He says that Chauvin entered the bathroom,

started beating him up with no warning until eventually shooting him in the

stomach. That was so close range that he still has a bullet wound and hole

in his stomach today.


HAYES: So he – this was in 2008. So this was 12 years ago. He shot him. He

discharged his weapon. He shot him in the stomach at close range in his own



MELENDEZ: Correct. So basically, he said that the mother whose child called

for a domestic violence case, but Chauvin and the other officers entered

his house without any warning, came into the house, started immediately

going for Toles. Toles said that he hid in the bathroom because he didn`t

know what to do.


He says that when Chauvin broke down the door, he admits that he responded

to Chauvin and starting to hit him and responded and started hitting him

back. He doesn`t remember being shot, but he does remember getting walked

out towards the end and falling on the ground next to his front door while

waiting for paramedics to arrive.


He says that he was at the hospital for two days before he was immediately

brought to the court where he was charged with two felonies and one

misdemeanor. Chauvin, on the other hand, was placed on administrative

leave, obviously for not long because he was still in the force until



And that he had to – Toles said that he had to make a plea deal in this

case that made him plead guilty to the misdemeanor, but drop the two

felonies charges something he says that it will say on his record,

obviously, that he`s going to have to deal with. And he actually was first

surprised when he saw that Chauvin – his name come up during the George

Floyd case and said that at first he didn`t recognize the face of the man

that had shot him in his bathroom. But once he heard the name, he – it was

very clear that it was the same person.


HAYES: This police officer as NBC reported and others because there`s a

public database with complaints, has had a number of complaints throughout

the years. There have been several discharges of his – of his weapon. This

was not the only time I think that he – that he fired his weapon on duty.

And if I`m not mistaken, I think there`s been more than a dozen complaints

throughout the years.


MELENDEZ: Absolutely. So the Communities United Against Police Brutality

database which you were referring to has over a dozen cases against Chauvin

that are complaints filed either by citizens or others and many of them

have to do with excessive force. And his – he started in 2001, so

throughout his whole career, he only got two verbal reprimands and

everything else was pretty swept under the rug.


Some of the other cases that I think are pretty notable was in 2006,

Chauvin was involved in a fatal shooting of a 42-year-old, and in 2007, he

was also one of five officers who was involved in a non-fatal shooting of a

Native American man. Obviously, he had some run-ins that had some

disciplinary actions in the past, but none of them warranted him getting

suspended or anything other reprimand.


HAYES: So – I`m sorry, just to clarify. There`s a fatal – there was a

fatal shooting and I`d seen that reporting or other complaints and then

there was a non-fatal shooting of the individual that you interviewed who

was shot in the stomach and his own bathroom and another non-fatal



MELENDEZ: Yes. In 2011, the officers, one of five, that was placed on a

three day leave for a non-fatal shooting.


HAYES: What did – Mr. Toles, I think is his name, the individual that you





HAYES: What was his response? I know that he was surprised and he didn`t

quite remember, and then he texted with his sister who said that was

exactly the individual – his takeaway on what the situation is now.


MELENDEZ: Yes. So, I mean, today when I spoke to him, he was pretty angry

that Chauvin was not only strong force, but he believes that if he was

reprimanded for what he had done to him in 2008, that George Floyd would

still be alive today. He told me that while he hasn`t protested himself, he

is one of many people in the community that are just completely fed up with

the Minneapolis Police Department.


He told me that which I thought was very funny that not only they reached

our tipping point, but if boiling water is 100 – 212 degrees, that the

people in Minneapolis or out of 600. They are completely fed up with what`s

happening and once he realized that it was Chauvin and that he had again

done something that could have been easily stopped if he had been through

the proper procedures, George Floyd would still be here.


HAYES: Pilar Melendez, WHO did that reporting for The Daily Beast today

which I learned a lot from, thank you very much for making some time for



MELENDEZ: Thank you so much.


HAYES: And now, I want to bring in Jeremiah Ellison, who represents Word

Five of Minneapolis on the city council. And Councilman, I wonder how

you`re reacting tonight to the latest developments, particularly the

announcement by the U.S. Attorney and the Hennepin County Attorney Michael

Freeman that they just need to take some time and further consider the

weight of all the evidence.



mistake. I think that no other individual regardless of race or anything

would enjoy this much discretion, would enjoy this kind of leeway after

they`ve killed someone so blatantly and so brazenly and so cruelly in the

manner that this officer killed George Floyd.


HAYES: What is your response to learning as we have that there have been –

there is a bit of a paper trail here. There have been a number of

complaints, there have been a number of – there`s been one fatal shooting,

at least two non-fatal shootings involving this officer about what it says

about the department and the department`s ability to apply accountability

or to fairly assess the actions of his officers?


ELLISON: You know, regrettably, I have to say that I`m not all that

surprised. You know, in Minneapolis, we have begun this very recent, I

think, intense reform of our police department. But let`s be honest, no

amount of training and no amount of diversifying your police force is going

to create the level of accountability that you need if criminal behavior is

not – is not met with criminal consequences for police officers.


I think that we have had a history as a city you know, especially before my

time here of sort of the slap on the wrist sort of approach, saying, hey,

you`re a police officer, your job is hard, and you did something awful, but

we`re willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. And I think that that

kind of culture has really poisoned the well so to speak here in

Minneapolis, and it certainly created a lot of bad will between the public

and the police.


HAYES: I`ve seen some statistics that rank major metro areas and their

police departments, the percentage of police officers that live in the city

limits and Minneapolis very low on that list, which is to say, if I`m not

mistaken, the majority of the police officers in the force are living

outside the city. I wonder your feelings about that, whether you think that

contributes to some of the issues here.


ELLISON: I think – I think it`s nearly 94 percent of our police force do

not live here in the city of Minneapolis. I think that that is highly

problematic. But you know, I do think that accountability, right,

consequences for your actions is going to go the furthest.


I`m in favor of these – of these reforms where people need to live where

they work. I`m in favor of diversifying the police force and I`m in favor

of us changing our training. But at the end of the day, all that stuff goes

out the window if somebody knows that they – that they sort of have carte

blanche when they go out to abuse the community.


HAYES: Do you feel like there`s a – there`s a solution here? I mean, the

sort of – the short-term solution, the thing of protesters want, as my

colleague Shaquille Brewster was saying was criminal charges here and in

the case of what happened. But you know, we have – we have been covering

this, I`ve been covering this as long as I`ve been on television. We`ve

seen like case after case similar to this, often similar profiles, often

officers with other charges before. We`ve seen it in small – we`ve seen it

suburbs, we`ve seen it in small towns, we`ve seen it in big cities. We`ve

seen it in big cities with diverse police forces. We sit in big cities with

not particularly diverse police sources. Like as someone who is on the

Minnesota city council, what you think about what is the solution here?

What are your thoughts on that?


ELLISON: You know, I hate to sound like a broken record, but I think that

in every equation where you see an officer misconduct, and as you said,

it`s a huge issue all across the country in all settings, the one thing

that people lack is that level of accountability. When officers commit

criminal acts, they often do not receive criminal consequences. And I think

that is the is the key ingredient here towards getting some level of



You know, I think that the other solution, if I may, is to – is for us to

really do an inventory of what kind of 911 calls we actually get around the

country, I know we are doing that here in Minneapolis, and figuring out

which one of them require a police response. George Floyd, you know, it`s

alleged that he wrote a $20.00 forge check. So $20.00 of a forged check is

what ended up being a death sentence for him. That is – that`s insane.

Does a forged cheque require somebody with a gun to respond? Does a forged

check require this level of violence? And does this – does this whole

situation warrant – is it worth the amount of unrest that we`re

experiencing here in the city? I think it`s not.


HAYES: Yes. Councilman Jeremiah Ellison, I think it`s the first time I had

the pleasure to speak to you and I hope I get to do it again. Thank you so

much for taking time tonight.


ELLISON: Thank you for having me.


HAYES: Don`t go anywhere. Our coverage continues on the protests in

Minnesota and the death of George Floyd right after this.




HAYES: As you watch these images tonight, as you think about what`s

happened in Minneapolis and the death of George Floyd, consider that it`s

almost June in a presidential election year and the incumbent president is

going to stand before the people of this country on his record seeking four

more years.


And it`s also worth remembering that four years ago as Barack Obama was

leaving office and Hillary Clinton was running on the same party line is a

Democratic, the country of course had its share of very, very serious

problems before Donald Trump. An economic recovery that had left a lot of

people behind rising inequality, a criminal justice system that was frankly

out of control. Police who had killed black men and women across the

country in painful videos that were publicized, leading to widespread

social protests, sometimes unrest.


And candidate Donald Trump decided this would be the theme of his whole

campaign. The idea of his entire country went to hell in a handbasket

because of the first black president who maybe wasn`t even born here, maybe

was a secret Muslim, and it was trying to get it back to the way it had

been. Make America Great Again.


Everything he talked about was how the economy was broken. He made up

figures about unemployment. The election was rigged. The country was a

disaster. He campaigned basically saying America is now a hellhole. And

then he was elected with a minority of the vote. In his inauguration

speech, Donald Trump put the darkest possible cast on those state of

affairs, vowing to end what he called American carnage.


Well, now here we are, not even four years after he made his American

Carnage speech. The first few years, he was terrible, but at least the

economy was kind of cruising ahead. And now, now we`re in the middle of a

once in a century pandemic. It`s worth taking a second and looking at where

we are right now.


More than 100,000 Americans are dead after the first confirmed coronavirus

case in the country. Dead from a pandemic the President claimed multiple

times over and over that he had under control while he did basically

nothing. At least 40 million people have lost their jobs. We`re staring

into an uncertain future where it is unclear when and how the economy comes

back and how many people the virus will kill; how many people will get



I mean, the virus is still growing in pockets of the country. Over the

weekend, Arizona had record-high levels of hospitalizations, E.R. visits

related to the coronavirus statewide. North Carolina`s Coronavirus

hospitalizations hit all-time highs for the second straight day. Travis

County, Texas some of the state`s capital – home of the state`s capital

Austin just had the biggest one-day jump in new cases since the start of

the outbreak.


And that is all laid on top of all the existing structural deep problems

that were already here in America when Donald Trump was elected, the

problems that he so cynically exploited. The problems that have only gotten

worse under his tenure, like the basic inequality and desperation that so

many Americans, understandably justifiably feel about our social worker,

and a criminal justice system that disproportionately harms African

American and Latino people that particularly treats black citizens, like

subjects of some foreign authority be occupied, not citizens and not



And this is what it looks like right now in the state of Minnesota, a state

whose unemployment rate is any 37-year high, a state where coronavirus

cases are surging particularly in the predominantly black Cedar-Riverside

neighborhood, and now where thousands of people are marching to protest the

killing of George Floyd. A black man who died after a white police officer

knelt on his neck as Floyd repeatedly said I can`t breathe.


People have been protesting for three days now. Many of which are out there

in masks in the middle of a pandemic. Buildings have been burned, stores

looted, at the same time, over the last month at least, there have been

armed men showing up the state capitals with long guns and who face very

little sanction for their explicit menacing of politicians and police,

they`re hanging the figure of a governor in effigy with a sign that evokes

John Wilkes Booth on protected speech. Men who are urged on by the

president in ways subtle and not many of whom quite openly profess a desire

for violence against the state in a second Civil War.


And there is no plan from the president who warned against American Carnage

for the carnage and chaos we are living through now. Not the pandemic, not

the economic crisis, not societal inequities, not predatory policing, not

the protests in Minnesota, nothing except to make it all worse, to sow

chaos and discord and bigotry and hope the smaller part of the country that

follows him is enough to win an election again. This is what Donald Trump`s

America has wrought. Not great again, ever further from a more perfect





HAYES:  As we`ve noted, there are protests around the country tonight in a

variety of cities including Memphis, Tennessee; Denver, Colorado; along

with Minneapolis. That`s the scene, I believe, in Denver at the moment

where protesters are blocking an intersection. Similar protests happening

around the country in the aftermath of the death of George Floyd. His neck

was under the knee of a Minneapolis police officer as he said I can`t

breathe. He was pinned to the ground. He had no pulse by the time he

entered the ambulance. As of right now, there have been no charges or

arrests for any of the officers that were involved.


Joining me now Sherilyn Ifill, president and director of counsel of the

NAACP Legal Defense Fund.


Sherilyn, you have worked on cases like this before. You and I have talked

through the years about this. What do you think needs to happen in the sort

of short-term in Minneapolis?



Chris, the key here is that we`ve been around this circle before. And the

community is now educated about what should happen. And the first thing

that needs to happen is we need transparency. We need all of the



Today, we heard the state`s attorney from Hennepin County say he is not

charging the officers because there is some other information or some other

video that suggests that perhaps there should not be criminal charges and I

was very disappointed with this baiting of the public. If there is

something he has, he should reveal it and give the public a chance to see



I have been calling for the release of the police incident report. I would

like to know what those officers said happened when they got back to the

station house. We`ve seen the fire department report, but we haven`t seen

the incident report.


And we know this is important, Chris, because it was vitally important in

the case of Michael Slager who killed Walter Scott, right, and gave an

account of what happened in his encounter with Walter Scott that was

actually quite different than the video.


We know this was important in Chicago when Lquan McDonald was killed and

the officer who killed him claimed that McDonald was coming towards him

with a knife and the video revealed something quite different. That is

going to be important not only for the officer who so brutally and so

awfully killed George Floyd, but also for the officers who were on the

scene and bystanders. Did they co-sign a false account of what happened?


So, the first thing that needs to happen is we need more transparency, more

information. And then secondly, I would say I`m very impressed with the

mayor`s empathy and with his willingness to speak out very early about what

he saw and to tell the truth about what he saw. But I am also concerned

about the police response to protesters and the talk about property damage.


People want justice. They want to know what is going to happen. I would

like to see the mayor talking more, just not at a noon press conference

every day. He needs to be able to talk in the evening and not just in city

hall. He needs to be out on the street and talking with people and telling

them what is going to happen. People are not patient, and understandably

so, because they want justice.


HAYES:  I should note that the mayor, Jacob Frey, of the city of

Minneapolis will be on with my colleague Rachel Maddow in the hour after

us, so there will be – he will be pressed on all of those.


Ben Crump had this to say about the city. He said city leaders need to

understand the community`s grief over the horrific killing of George

demands more than condemnation and personnel action. The city must own



And I`m struck in talking to I`m speaking to the Councilman Ellison just

earlier in the show that there seemed to be some structural issues here,

particularly the fact that the record of this officer, particularly, is –

seems to have a lot of red flags, I got to say.


IFILL:  Well, let`s talk about the various structural flags that are here

in this incident. Let`s first talk about the city of Minneapolis. The city

of Minneapolis has experienced, you know, these killings before. And as a

result, the Department of Justice after the last incident of unrest in the

city of Minneapolis actually did a study and released a report that

provided a whole set of recommendations about how to deal with these kind

of issues, and particularly civil unrest.


I read the report and seen the recommendations. I see no evidence that the

recommendations in that report have actually been implemented to try to

quell some of the more extreme measures that the police have taken of the



Then secondly, this police department has a terrible record. The racial

disparities in the use of force and police brutality are extraordinary.

This is a police department that in my view, at any other time I would say,

Chris, is ripe for a Department of Justice pattern and practice

investigation, but we know that this Department of Justice has virtually

abandoned any effort to investigate structural discrimination in police

departments. And so we have very little hope.


But it`s also true that this officer has this incredibly long record of

complaints. And that tells you that there is a structural problem within

the police department as it relates to discipline and accountability


He`s also a senior officer. You see those other officers standing around

watching him. That`s because he`s the field training officer. He`s the

superior guy. So that tells you there`s a deep problem within the



I have asked for the Department of Justice to get involved, because I think

we shouldn`t stop asking the Department of Justice to do their job, but it

is also important to point out, Chris, that it was almost a year ago to the

day that the Department of Justice decided not to bring civil rights

charges against the officer who killed Eric Garner. And, you know, we had a

video there of someone being choked to death, Eric Garner, being choked to

death by Officer Daniel Pantaleo saying I can`t breathe. We had no charges

in the city. It sat with the Department of Justice for years. Reports

suggest that the lawyers of the civil rights division recommend that civil

rights charges be brought against that officer and that Bill Barr, the

attorney general, countermanded the recommendation of the civil rights



The Legal Defense Fund, we`ve actually filed a FOIA request, and filed a

FOIA request for information about the basis for that changed decision, but

I would remind people of that as we hear that the Department of Justice is

investigating. We hear the president saying this is so sad.


Just remember that they refused to bring charges against the officer who we

also saw on videotape choked to death Eric Garner.


HAYES:  Sherrilyn Ifill, who has been fighting this fight for a very long

time. And your note about the Department of Justice and patterns and

practices I think I just to under score that, that we did get some very

good patterns and practices investigations out of the – particularly in

the last few years of the Obama administration, and particularly the

reports on the Cleveland Police Department and the Ferguson Police

Department among others that provided tremendous evidence and sort of a way

forward. And that has been completely absent, totally absent, from the

Department of Justice under both Jeff Sessions and now Attorney William

Barr. Thank you, Sherrilyn for making some time for us tonight.


IFILL:  Thank you, Chris.


HAYES:  When we come back, an update on what`s happening on the ground in

Minneapolis where protesters have returned to the streets to protest the

death of George Floyd.




HAYES:  We`re continuing to monitor the scene in Minneapolis tonight where

protesters are taking to the streets demonstrating against the killing of

George Floyd earlier this week. I want to bring in Chao Xiong. He`s a

reporter at the Star Tribune in Minneapolis. He joins us by phone in that

city where he has been covering the protests.


Chao, what`s going on there now?


CHAO XIONG, MINNEAPOLIS STAR TRIBUNE:  Well, what we`re seeing is just

multiple protests spread across

the city. And earlier today, the protests had even sort of bled into St.

Paul next door where people looted several businesses in a couple of

different spots, which we`ve never seen before in these types of cases.


HAYES:  What is your sense of the context here as a local reporter in this

city? You know, it strikes me that there is a lot of people have been

dealing with both police violence for a long time, there are long-standing

complaints, particularly in Minneapolis Police Department. You also have

people who have been dealing with the pandemic and the stress and danger of

that and have been cooped up in different houses. And there are a lot of

pressures on people right now.


What is the context for what we`re seeing here?


XIONG:  There really is.


I mean, I think an important part of the context is that as progressive and

as well off as Minneapolis and Minnesota is as a state, socially and

financially, there has been a huge disparity, and some of the worst

disparities in the country, for people of color, and black people, in

particular, in terms of earnings, education, and jobs. And that`s

definitely part of the undercurrent of the tension here we`re experiencing

today in relation to the George Floyd case.


This is no longer a singular incident. It sort of encapsulates all the

issues that black Minnesotans have been dealing with their entire lives

here in our state.


HAYES:  Can you tell us a little bit more about the context of Mike Freeman

who is the Hennepin County Attorney. He was at that press conference today

and sort of, you know, cautioned people. We played the clip of him talking

about there might be evidence as this police officer did not commit, that

sort of longer version of it was him essentially saying, look, you know,

give me time and trust me and I`m the only one who has ever gotten a

conviction of a police officer for this kind of thing. What is Freeman`s

record like?


XIONG:  You know, most prosecutors, and Freeman, have not charged officers

in the death of civilians. He is one of three that have charged cops in the

last few years and his office is the only one that won a conviction,

although that`s not really enough for the community. They questioned

whether previous cases were thoroughly investigated. And the fact that his

only conviction was against a Somali-American officer doesn`t really sit

well with the black community, as well.


HAYES:  Oh, that`s interesting. I remember that case. That was a police

officer and the police officer himself was Somali-American and that was

where the conviction…


XIONG:  Correct.


And yeah, he sought and killed a white Australian woman in one of our nicer

neighborhoods in Minneapolis.


HAYES:  What is your sense of what the kind of bright lines here in terms

of the demands. I mean, Shaquille Brewster, our own reporter, has been on

the streets, basically says, look, the protesters are going to continue,

this sense of unrest and outrage is going to continue in the absence of

charges. I mean, and I remember when I was in Baltimore killed that was the

demand of the protesters, quite clearly. Is that your sense here as well?


XIONG:  It certainly is. And earlier this afternoon, Al Sharpton was in

Minneapolis at the scene where George Floyd was killed. And he said I`m

going to be back over and over again until we get justice for George Floyd.

And I definitely see the community is on that bandwagon. And we`re in the

middle of summer – well, not even the middle, we`re at the start of summer

and we have all summer long for people to get out there and demonstrate.


And Mark Clark, several years ago, we saw that last through the late fall.

And really it was the weather that ended that. And here we don`t have that

as a mitigating factor.


HAYES:  All right. Chao Xiong who is reporting for the Minneapolis Star

Tribute, the great daily paper in that town. Thank you so much.


XIONG:   Thank you for having me.


HAYES:  Don`t go anywhere, Paul Butler and Phillip Atiba Goff are going to

join me next.




HAYES:  Protests are continuing tonight in Minneapolis following the death

of George Floyd, an African American man who was pinned to the ground under

an officer`s knee earlier this week. And as he said I can`t breathe, he

remained pinned and then he died.


Here with me now, two people who not only understand what is going on

today, but also understand the underlying history, the causes of what we`re

seeing, Phillip Atiba Goff, the co-founder and president of the Center for

Policing Equity, which analyzes data from across the country to help police

departments address issues of inequality, and Paul Butler, former federal

prosecutor who served in the Department of Justice`s public integrity unit

author of the book “Chokehold:  Policing Black Men,” which examines U.S.

law enforcement system and how it treats black men


Philip, let me start with you on this note, down to the words uttered by

this man, as he died, there is – it feels like we have seen this before.

And I`ve just been covering this full time for seven years. And you work on

this full time. And I guess my feeling is like how do you not give up in

this sense, how do you feel like things get better or there is progress or

people are listening, because it feels so often to so many – and people

that I`ve talked to over the past few days like it is running in circles.



just real. So I mean Minneapolis is one of our closest partners, so this is

a gut punch to all of us that do the work there, to the folks who were on

the ground, the organizers that we partner with.


I got to say, one of the most frustrating things and one of the most

dispiriting things in all of this, is that you will see a murder like this

and then a week or two later, cameras disappear, national attention

disappears, and in this political cycle with all of this stuff going on I

would be surprised if it is not sooner, and the folks who were in pain, who

were bleeding on the streets, either literally or in the way that they are

protesting and uprising, they`re saying where did everybody go?


And all of the attention that had been able to sustain actual progress in

Minneapolis, and in other cities, from 2014 through to 2016, it disappeared

when this administration showed up, because all the other social ills

started to bubble up.


So part of what I`m hearing from my folks in Minneapolis, and what I hear

from my team is we had attention, we had momentum, we had a chief who

wanted to do the right set of things, and now because nobody was paying

attention the last couple of years, we`re not just starting over again,

we`re starting with the great crushing disappointment of what it is like to

put your whole life into something and watch it crumble.


HAYES:  Yeah, this question about how to sort of sustain action here, Paul,

I know that there has been, and in the case of Minneapolis, there was a

sort of progressive challenge to Mike Freeman, who was the county attorney

there in 2018, that he managed to defeat, but there have been a variety of

progressive prosecutors elected throughout the country, most notably in

Philadelphia, Larry Krasner, who have really attempted to sort of recast

the entire approach of the system of criminal justice.


There has been real on the ground progress in that respect. Where do you

think things stand right now?


PAUL BUTLER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR:  Well, in this case, simply firing

the officers is too little too late. We have to look at structural changes.

This isn`t a concern about a couple of bad apple cops. In the first place,

what happened that this officer was still on the force? He has been

involved in three different incidences of killing people, he and his

colleagues, use of deadly force, three different times, there are 12

complaints that civilians have filed against him. So why was he walking

around licensed to kill?


We know that the police report is a lie. The original police report said

that Mr. Floyd resisted arrest. That`s not what the video shows.


What is it about the culture of this police department that three other

officers could literally watch another cop snuff out the life of Mr. Floyd.

Mr. Floyd literally narrates his own demise, and these cops didn`t do a

damn thing. They didn`t speak up at all.


So, this is about a cultural, institutional, structural problem, not just

with police in Minneapolis, but all over the country. It`s true that it`s

very bad in Minneapolis, 20 percent of the citizens there are African

American, 60 percent of the people who were killed by cops are black in

that city, but the problem is nationwide.


HAYES:  Phillip, I wanted to get your thoughts on some of the images that

you`ve, as you watch the police grab Mr. Floyd there, shortly before he was

killed. And we`ve seen images of the protests, and obviously there has been

– there have been fires set, there have been stores broken into, and, you

know, under almost all circumstance, police are going to do something about



But independent of that, and even going back to the first night where there

really wasn`t any of that, the difference in police reaction to Mr. Floyd

and protesters compared to what we`ve seen in scene after scene play out in

state capitals in which we`ve watched protesters who are armed with guns,

in the faces of police officers, I mean two inches away, like screaming in

their faces, and I have watched police officer after police officer in this

footage be the model of forbearance, the model of restraint. I mean, there

were people shoving cops on the steps of the state capitol I think in

California and I just thought to myself, my word, that that would not fly

in like, on the corner in the Bronx.


As someone who works with police, what do you make of that, when you see



GOFF:  You know, in 2008, I had the opportunity to be embedded with the

Denver Police Department during the DNC. I was walking with a district

commander at the time, African American sergeant, African American

lieutenant, district commander was African American. And I started hearing

drumbeats, and I heard no justice, no peace, no racist police.


And I was familiar with the chant. And I was surprised it was coming from a

bunch of white people who got right up in the face of law enforcement. They

were spitting. That night, there were feces hurled in the face of law

enforcement. They were wearing shields, but when you got crap literally

splattering in front of your face, I was shocked and impressed the way law

enforcement were able to

hold their cool and tamp down. So it is possible that that happens.


But what Paul was talking about I think is the real root of all of this

stuff. We have decided that blackness, it`s OK to say that blackness is

just dangerous, like it`s tolerable to decide that if I feel threatened, or

if you feel threatened, that whatever happens to the black body in front of

me, that`s all right. That`s not just a policing issue, though it is a

policing issue, that`s an American issue.


I don`t think that we should be talking about this as awful as it is in

Minneapolis, without talking about what happened in Central Park, right,

without talking about the weaponization of white fear, and the protection

of some kind of white innocence, that is part of what is happening in

Central Park with the individual who calls the cops on a bird watcher. I

don`t want to say names, because I`m not trying to give it that level of



But it`s also what`s happening on the steps of the capitol of Michigan,

right. They`re both one and the same, it`s like, well, this is your

innocent right to protest. It can`t be anything more sinister than that

when you`re showing up to a state house with a long gun trying to make sure

that people don`t engage in the practice of democracy. It can`t be more

sinister than that.


And yet when you have these people who were being – having their options

and their chances taken away from them and they feel as if the state is

hunting them, we can`t give them the space to find a way to express that

without saying you need to get back, you need to be able to behave, you

need to comply.


This isn`t just a police issue, this is how we`ve decided to frame

dangerousness and blackness and it`s generations old. And I`ve got to say

it`s exhausting.


HAYES:  Paul, a final thought from you on the thing that Councilman Ellison

told me this morning – told me earlier in the show, basically, which is in

a broader sense, do four armed men need to show up to deal with what

appears to be maybe a possibly counterfeit $20 bill or $10 bill or a forged

check, it is a little unclear? Like, as the root of the way that we

approach this?


BUTLER:  Eric Garner was killed for selling a single tobacco cigarette on

the streets. Mr. Floyd allegedly tried to use a counterfeit $20 bill, and

yet, the law authorizes the police to make arrests for minor crimes like

that, and to use deadly force if the person is uncooperative.


And so that doesn`t need to happen. We need to change the law. And we need

to understand that the real crisis isn`t what`s going on in the streets

tonight in Minneapolis, the real crisis is that the streets have never been

safe for black people and brown people in Minneapolis.


HAYES:  Phillip Atiba Goff, Paul Butler, thank you, gentlemen, both for

sharing that. I appreciate it.


That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now.

Good evening, Rachel.







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