Vanity Fair TRANSCRIPT: 4/24/20, All in w/ Chris Hayes
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: And we salute you. That does it for our coverage
tonight. Keep it right here though, because there`s a lot more to come and
a lot going on. MSNBC`s “ALL IN” with Chris Hayes is up next.
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. We
are still on this Friday in the midst of one of the worst national
disasters since the Second World War probably. And from the beginning, the
President has wanted to wish it away. He`s wanted to tell us that we have a
totally under control. As he said in January, that within a couple of days,
the case count is going to be down to close to zero as he claims in
He tried happy talk and spin. He pretended it was not happening. And when
none of that worked, and the government failed to protect us with
inadequate testing, he turned his attention to finding some magic pill,
some bolt from the blue cure that can make everything go away. That would
make the economy and the stock market comeback that would get Donald Trump
And so he seized on some genuinely promising though very limited initial
signs about this malaria drug. And day and night he and folks on Trump T.V.
flogged it and pushed it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A drug called chloroquine,
and some people would add to it hydroxy, hydroxychloroquine. The nice part
is it`s been around for a long time. So we know that if it – if things
don`t go as planned, it`s not going to kill anybody.
SEAN HANNITY, HOST, FOX NEWS: If I had choice, I would use it for me. And
I`m only speaking for me.
TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, FOX NEWS: In a lot of ways, hydroxychloroquine is the
LAURA INGRAHAM, HOST, FOX NEWS: At this point, it`s come across as pretty
much of a game-changer.
TRUMP: I say it, what do you have to lose? I`ll say it again, what do you
have to lose? Take it. I really think they should take it.
CARLSON: Watching people in the media talk down a potentially life-saving
medicine because a politician they don`t like has endorsed it is probably
the most shameful thing I assume has done this for 20 years I`ve ever seen.
TRUMP: Just recently, a friend of mine told me he got better because of the
use of that drugs. What do you have to lose? They`ve been taking it for 40
years for malaria. The world is out. You know, the people get it. These
people don`t get it, the medial, but the people get it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: We now know, this was not just idle speculation, it wasn`t just
hype. Behind the scenes, the Trump administration was trying to force the
drug on Americans, in contravention of scientific advice.
Just days ago, they ousted the doctor leading the agency involved in
developing a vaccine in the midst of a pandemic, the worst in 100 years,
Dr. Rick Bright who says that part of the reason that he was ousted, that
he was removed from his posts in the midst of the pandemic is because he
“resisted efforts to provide an unproven drug hydroxychloroquine on demand
to the American public, on-demand.”
Well, now we have the e-mails obtained by Vanity Fair showing the Trump
administration “really wanted to flood New York and New Jersey with the
drug, a drug that had not been sufficiently tested for treatment of
coronavirus. In fact today, the FDA is cautioning against using that drug
outside of the hospital setting, outside of a clinical trial due to the
risk of heart rhythm problems.
And researchers have cut short a study of the drug citing a high risk of
death on the people who are taking it. Nearly two dozen died after taking
doses daily. Now, the evidence here is mixed, but that`s why it needs to be
studied. And now Trump TV`s Laura Ingraham and Tucker Carlson and Sean
Hannity, you saw them all there on tape, are trying to move walk away from
the notion they were pushing this drug in the first place.
But here`s the thing. The President has not given up on the idea of some
magical solution, because he is incapable of thinking about this as a long-
term battle that requires strategy and care and competence and expertise.
Nope, he still wants the magic bullet to save him and his reelection.
So here he is yesterday just brainstorming on how to cure the coronavirus.
And as you watch this, please keep your eyes on Dr. Deborah Birx, who had
been up until now a long-respected public health official who decided to
mortgage her entire reputation on behalf of this man.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Supposing we hit the body with a tremendous – whether it`s
ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn`t
been checked, but you`re going to test it. And then I said, supposing you
brought the light inside the body in which you can do either through the
skin or in some other way. And I think you said you`re going to test that
too? It sounds interesting. Right?
And then I see the disinfectant knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And
is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost
a cleaning? Because you see, it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous
number on the lung, so it would be interesting to check that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: It`s that deep breath she takes there when he says injection, an
injection inside, almost a cleaning. Test that too. You guys can run that
down for me. Yes, yes, as everyone has noted in the last 24 hours, that`s
insane. It sounds insane. But he`s the president. That`s the guy running
the country, and people listen.
The Maryland Emergency Management Agency said it received several calls
regarding questions about disinfectant use and COVID-19. More than 100, in
fact. And companies have had to warn people not to drink or inject bleach
and other disinfectants. Lysol`s parent company put out a statement, “due
to recent speculation and social media activity, we must be clear that
under no circumstance should our disinfected products be administered into
the human body through injection, ingestion, or any other route.”
Clorox also put out a statement warning people not to put its products into
their bodies. And there were also warnings from the EPA and the CDC and the
surgeon general who implored people to please always talk to your health
provider first before administering any treatment, medications to yourself
or a loved one?
I should tell you that just today, Trump lied and said his initial comment
was sarcastic even though that`s obviously not true because we all just saw
the video there. And then he went ahead after lying and saying it was
sarcastic and basically like once again said what he said yesterday, like
maybe we check it out. I`m not a doctor, but you know, running down.
This is all happening on a day when the death toll from this virus has
reached 51,000, more than 51,000 Americans died from it. He said the cases
were going down to zero in February. We`re heading towards a million cases.
We`re on our way to that. 26 million people have lost their jobs. And day
after day after day, you`re seeing there`s no there`s no real plan.
There`s no plan or solutions coming from the White House. Instead, there is
every night carried on this network and others, a two-hour pathological
narcissistic propaganda show in which the President feels some fleeting
sense of satisfaction because people are watching him. And then he goes
back to watching more T.V.
Here with me now Katherine Eban. She`s the journalist who wrote the Vanity
Fair piece about Donald Trump`s plans to push chloroquine as a treatment
for coronavirus. Katherine, they`re really quite startling e-mails. What
did you find?
KATHERINE EBAN, JOURNALIST, “VANITY FAIR”: Nice to be with you, Chris.
Thanks for having me on. The e-mails really are stunning because what they
show is a very clear, high-level pressure campaign to essentially flout or
circumvent regulations that are designed for patient safety, pressure on
career health officials to make these drugs widely available.
And then just the plan that`s expressed in these e-mails, like, you know,
want to flood New York and New Jersey with treatment courses. And, you
know, that`s a final answer, essentially, to paraphrase, we`re pushing this
into pharmacies. And in one e-mail saying the easy way, which is the FDA is
rule matters not.
And the idea was to get this to, essentially any patient that wanted it
through pharmacies, even when all of the top government clinicians and the
FDA zone rules stated that they should only be used in strictly monitored
hospital settings and preferably in hospital-based clinical trials.
HAYES: Right. So it`s one – you know, it`s one thing if – obviously, I
think we all learned from the AIDS crisis, I think, right, that the FDA is
the final word on innovation, risk and reward. They got a lot of things
wrong there. And it was act-up folks who pushed them properly, right, out
past what they were willing to do.
So it`s not like there`s some final authority here, but it was it`s clear
that it`s different to say look, yes, let`s try this drug in clinical
settings, let`s try it in hospitals, let`s let doctors use it and observe
what happens. This is something else. This is we want to push this over the
objections of the FDA and their actual regulations so that every person in
this area can go to their pharmacy basically and take this outside of those
sorts of supervised trials.
EBAN: That`s right. So, you know, on March 24th, the top working group of
clinicians in the government, the counter – medical countermeasures group
came to an internal consensus statement saying the drugs are dangerous,
they haven`t been properly studied, and they should only be used for
treatment of COVID-19 in these strictly controlled hospital trials.
And despite that, it was very clear the FDA is top lawyer who was a
political appointee, sent out an e-mail, here`s the plan. We`re going to,
you know, hand this over to this agency to kind of create study design and
the President wants to announce it from the podium. You know, it was – I
have the e-mails, link it to the White House, so the pressure campaign was
And, you know, career health officials were extremely concerned. They felt
that this plan did not adequately protect patients, put them at risk,
didn`t have enough monitoring and controls. And the drugs, I mean, this is
not – they may not be as dangerous as Clorox or Lysol, but these are drugs
that come with risks of cardiac events. So there was tremendous concern.
HAYES: We should – we should note that Dr. Bright who is heading up BARDA
had been in the government since 2016 and an expert on developing vaccines,
particularly against influenza-like threats. Until you`re reporting, he was
basically saying, look, this is – this is what I`m saying. This is my
claim that I was removed because I stood in the way of this.
But your reporting provides the first black and white smoking gun
documentary evidence that what he says was going on was going on. That
there was a political plan to push the drug quote on demand. I mean, it
confirms that part of it, right?
EBAN: It absolutely does. I mean, one e-mail that I obtained states from an
employee in Rick Bright`s agency when the plan is unveiled, we`ve been hit
by a bus. Now, we hit back. And the hitting back appears to be to try to
corral this plan and change it so that the chloroquine drugs in the
National Stockpile, the requirement would be they can only be used in a
But further e-mails show that, you know, top Trump officials are saying,
forget about that rule. And let`s push it out through the distributions.
HAYES: Katherine Eban, fantastic reporting. Everyone should go read that
article in those e-mails which are just unbelievably damning.
EBAN: Thank you.
HAYES: Thank you. Thank you very much.
EBAN: Thank you so much for having me.
HAYES: I want to turn now to Senator Cory Booker, Democrat of New Jersey
who tweeted out today “I can`t believe I have to say this, but please do
not ingest or inject disinfected into your body. Only take medical advice
from medical professionals.”
Senator, would it be better if the president just stopped doing these dog
and pony shows?
SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): Yes, unequivocally, yes. He is not being
constructive. And we`ve seen now that he`s putting lives at risk with that
outrageous advice that just further threw gasoline on every gutter aspect
of the internet, with crackpot theories about how people could be
protecting themselves where at worse, throwing themselves in horrible risk.
This would be funny, it would be comical if it wasn`t for the fact that
people are dying rates in my state that are still outrageous and
unacceptable, and that folks are looking for hope and he`s not providing
it. He is undermining a national effort to do what`s necessary to make our
nation strong and safe.
HAYES: How is your – your state is in the thick of it right now. From the
– from the case data and fatality data we have from New York State, which
was the worst-hit state, it appears that it is past its plateau. It`s a
little less clear in New Jersey, that that`s the case which is still in the
midst of probably the worst part of the epidemic. How is your state doing?
BOOKER: Look, the New Jersey toughness and the grit here is impressive. And
folks are lightworkers all around our state. And I`m talking to people from
north to south and just seeing incredibly beautiful stories, but we`re
still going through hell.
Not only is economic damage hurting so many families – I talk to unions
today and businesses that have laid off furloughed people, but the health
crisis. I mean, God, I spent a lot of my day doing condolence calls and
talking to people who are on the frontlines of the medical fight.
So this is a very difficult time where the second state in fatalities, the
second-highest state in cases, and we are still a long way to go until we
get through this hell. And that`s why we need a president that is going to
actually offer solutions and do the things we really need them to do on the
HAYES: The President today is signing that sort of 3.5 CARES Act relief
bill, which some is are seeing as a kind of follow up to the one that
passed a few weeks ago to replenish some of the funding for the Payroll
Protection Program for small businesses and workers as well as some money
But I`m starting to hear, you heard Mitch McConnell say it, I saw Ted Cruz
do it like, OK, OK, enough of all this spending, enough of this helping.
Mitch McConnell said he thinks that states that are in fiscal trouble
should just declare bankruptcy. They should be allowed to declare
bankruptcy. He called any money for those states a “blue state bailout.”
What Do you think about this idea that they`re just going to tell the
states across the nation, though, you guys should just go declare
bankruptcy, you got to fire all your workers, you have to do it?
BOOKER: That`s ridiculous. So, when hurricanes hit the Gulf Coast, a so-
called red state, Florida, I voted for massive resources to infuse into
those states to help with their crisis as we should. Right now, in our
state and a number of states, we`re in a jeopardy of going to such a
financial crisis that we lay off critical workers, ambulance drivers,
firefighters, teachers, police officers.
Think about this for a second. We are a country that quickly bailed out
some of the biggest businesses and corporations we have. But when it comes
to truly essential work workers, a leader in our federal government has
just said you`re expendable. Well, I`m telling you right now, that`s just
not the case.
If we do not get critical money, the regions of our country like ours that
are getting hit by a hell of a storm, greater than any anything we`ve seen
in our lifetime, taking more lives in war`s take, and our federal
government can`t step up for these families and communities were being
protected by those folks and served in essential ways by those folks, that
is so un-American and such an affront to our ideals as a nation.
And so this is going to be one hell of a fight. But there`s no way you`re
going to sell out the workers who are doing the toughest jobs and putting
themselves at risk right when we need them right now.
HAYES: Final question about where your state is. Governor Phil Murphy was
talking about some money that was from earmark from New Jersey in one of
the previous relief bills, I think about $1.2 billion because of some
technical strings attached to it in a statutory census is likely unusable.
What do you know about that? Are you working on that? What`s that mean?
BOOKER: Yes. This was part of a tough negotiation in the first CARES Act,
where Mitch McConnell bought – he`s now brought two bills to the floor,
Democrats stop them, and we`re able to get more things into them. And one
of the things we were able to get in was funding for state and local
The challenge was would that be flexible dollars or not? We got a lot of
assurances that when Treasury would write the rules, they would write them
in a way that would be flexible enough that New Jersey could actually use
those monies to deal with the crisis we have. Unfortunately, we got the
treasurer, but it was not – it doesn`t seem to have been honored.
HAYES: Wow. Well, that seems like a big deal.
BOOKER: That`s an understatement. When – again, when we have – you know,
I`m sitting here in Newark, New Jersey and my – the largest city in the
state, that just said that their expenditures are going so far up, the
revenues are starting to go down. They`re in danger of laying off critical
I mean, if firefighters get laid off, those people that are doing the
frontline work, I mean, we`re basically saying as a country that larger
corporations who got hundreds of billions of dollars, that`s something that
the Republicans in the Senate can support, but not frontline workers. That
doesn`t make sense to me. We`re better than that as a country, and we`ve
got to step up and support states.
HAYES: We`re going to find out if we are. Senator Cory Booker, thank you
for making some time tonight.
BOOKER: Thank you very much, Chris. As always, I really appreciate your
HAYES: Ahead, just three months from his impeachment acquittal, remember
that, President Trump`s corruption continues. The man who warned us about
this exact situation, Congressman Adam Schiff joins me next.
HAYES: Do you remember when the President was impeached earlier this year,
just the third time in American history? That impeachment trial ended back
in the beginning of February, less than three months ago. If you could
believe it. It sure feels like another lifetime.
But here`s the thing. If you go back and you look at what the President was
impeached for, all of the dangerous and vicious tendencies, like putting
his own personal political interest above the national public interest, and
his fundamental inability to distinguish between the two, running roughshod
over career civil servants, retaliation against whistleblowers, all the
self-serving corruption, all of that is what we`re seeing on deadly display
right now, day after day.
Because you cannot trust them to do what is right. That is what impeachment
manager Adam Schiff warned us about back in January.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): And you know, you can`t trust this president do
what`s right for this country. You can trust he will do what`s right for
Donald Trump. He`ll do it now, he`s done it before, he`ll do it for the
next several months, he`ll do it in the election if he`s allowed to. This
is why if you find him guilty, you must find that he should be removed.
Because right matters. Because right matters. And the truth matters.
Otherwise, we are lost.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: And everywhere you look, of course, there`s the specter of corrupt
intent in everything the President does, a self-serving desire to put his
political future above anything else even in the middle of pandemic that`s
killing tens of thousands of our fellow Americans.
Today, for instance, we learned the president just owes tens of millions of
dollars from the bank of China and that the loan is due in the middle of
what could be Trump`s second term, which, who knows, I genuinely don`t
know, it might or might not explain why the President praise China and its
leaders at least 15 times as this virus is spreading, even though when he
wants to memory hole that now. You never know.
One of the nation`s leading vaccine expert who was just a motive, we were
just talking about last block, told us he had to resist a push to “fund
potentially dangerous drugs – listen to this – promoted by those with
political connections. The president was pushing a drug with unknown side
effects apparently because people around him would profit at least in part,
just like the President`s associates running around Ukraine trying to
dislodge ambassadors and score lucrative business deals, right? It`s the
same thing. And there`s so much more. We were warned.
Democrats in Congress impeach President Trump and 52 – 53 Republican
senators voted to keep him there. And now here we are, again. Joining me
now, the man have warned us about the president, the chair of the House
Intelligence Committee, Congressman Adam Schiff, Democrat of California.
I wonder, Congressman, how you think about what happened a few months ago,
that episode which seems like all things on the other side of this fence in
time of before after the pandemic at the U.S.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): There`s one thing that really I have to say haunts
me from that trial and it was before that snippet that you showed, where we
knew we had to answer the question to the senators, OK, essentially, House
managers, you proved him guilty, does he really need to be removed? After
all, we have an election in nine months, how much damage would he really
And we posed that question to the Senate, and we answered it by saying that
he could do an awful lot of damage, but frankly, Chris, I don`t think we
had any idea how much damage he would go on to do in the months ahead.
There are 50,000 Americans now who are dead in significant part because of
his incompetence, because of his inability to think beyond himself and put
the country first. I don`t think we would have ever anticipated that his
brand of narcissism and his brand of incompetence, sometimes his brand and
malevolence would be so fatal to the American people.
But probably, you know, the strongest echo of what we were talking about
during the trial was when he was earlier talking about how he didn`t want
to return the calls from governors, he didn`t want his vice president to
return calls from governors that weren`t saying nice things about him, that
really weren`t saying things about him that he could then turn into
campaign commercials, as indeed he has.
That was such a profound and disturbing echo of what he tried to do with
Ukraine. So sadly, you know, as we pointed out during the trial, a man with
no moral compass will never find his way. And this president certainly
HAYES: You know, what I`m struck by as I remember back and think about that
then and now, is that the one argument that was – it was not a very good
argument that Republicans made, but it was at least – at least granted the
facts such as they were defensible in that way, which was that, well, he
didn`t really get away with it in the end, right? That it all – it all
didn`t come to some big, you know, geopolitical explosion and he didn`t
actually get them to roll over and do the interview to go after his chief
political rival. It was kind of a near miss.
And I keep being haunted by that because it was true. And the stakes of it
ultimately in what happened, I mean, it did damage our relationship. But
here, it didn`t happen. I mean, there was no getting out. The stakes
weren`t small. It wasn`t a near miss, we got hit.
SCHIFF: Well, that`s exactly right. I have to think that his disbanding of
that pandemic office within the White House and the National Security
Council that was meant to be a tripwire for a potential pandemic that had
been established under the Obama administration, he had to get rid of
because it was a product of the Obama administration and the fundamental
insecurity he has towards his predecessor meant he had to do away with
anything associated with President Obama.
Well, that left the nation unprotected. And when the virus did hit, all of
the happy talk, all the wishing it away, all of the leaving our country
vulnerable because he thought that was politically advantageous was so true
to form. His character will not change, he won`t change. And now it is that
such tragic and deadly consequences.
HAYES: This idea about, you know, what can you do for me or not, everything
being dependent on favoritism and cronyism, which is actually the way that
you know, before a lot of reforms U.S. government particularly in terms of
the instantiation of the civil service in the late 19th century that a lot
of federal government functioned, a lot of corrupt machines in city
politics and states have functioned. But this headline today, this is in
the midst of the pandemic that the connections matter for getting a crucial
equipment. Want a mass contract or some ventilators? A White House
connection helps. What do you think about the ways in which life-saving
crucial information and equipment are being a portion around the country?
Can you put any faith that it is being done based on science or sort of
SCHIFF: Well, you know, you really can`t. I mean, you can`t have confidence
with this president that either contracts are going out to those that are
most capable of producing the gear instead of cronies or friends of the
President. You can have confidence that money that`s going out to preserve
jobs and industry is going to go out on the basis of need rather than the
basis of favoring friends and punishing enemies.
You can`t have confidence that ventilators are being allocated to states or
protective gear on the basis of those states that are most in need. You
simply can`t have that confidence with this president. There`s too much
evidence to the contrary. That`s not how he thinks.
Indeed, I think he thinks that people that operate that way that operate in
the national income is not their personal interests are somehow dupes, but
that is just not who he is. And that`s not going to change. So you know we
have, I think a desperate responsibility right now to do everything we can
in congress to oversee these expenditures, to use what leverage we have on
the budget process to insist on accountability. But he is true to form as
he was retaliating against whistle-blowers months ago, he is retaliating
against them now as he was going against inspector generals months ago. He
is firing them now. And you can only imagine what he will try to do to
interfere with the investigation involving Dr. Bright and his complaint
that administration was pushing this cure that turns out in the early
experience in the VA to be doing more harm than good.
HAYES: Congressman Adam Schiff, thank you for joining us tonight.
SCHIFF: Thanks, Chris.
HAYES: Coming up, we`re learning more and more about how the Coronavirus
spreads, how the masks we`re all wearing may be affecting that spread and
we`ll talk about what we`re learning and fascinating new studies, next.
Don`t go anywhere.
HAYES: We are still coming to understand the features and characteristics
and traits of this virus that has upended the world. But there has been
this open and ongoing question about how you catch it, right? I mean, we
know that it`s transmitted in all kinds of ways, but just how contagious is
it and people are wiping down their mail and their packages, they worry in
the parks if people jog too close to them outside and all of that might be
vectors of transmission. It looks like it`s possible. But , increasingly,
it seems the main method of transmission, the way it`s mainly being
transmitted is saliva droplets spread through air being expelled by people
with coughs and sneezes.
NBC News correspondent Kerry Sanders did this amazing segment breaking down
what that looks like and how that works.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY SANDERS, NBC NEWS CORREPSONDENT: The engineering professors use a
dummy to simulate the cough droplets we all create.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three, two, one.
SANDERS: The FAU team uses a laser to follow how far those droplets
travel. What you`re looking at is a mixture of water and glycerin that
creates smoke 10 to 20 microns in size, the same size and weight of the
smaller droplets of fluid we expel when we cough.
The simulation shows the projection three feet traveled in less than two
seconds. Within 12 seconds.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s at six feet.
SANDERS: And in 41 seconds.
SANDERS: There we go, nine feet. And that was a cough, would you say?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was a heavy, heavy cough.
SANDERS: In some tests we saw the cough travel up to 12 feet.
Increasingly, masks are commonplace. Remember, the use of a mask is to
protect other people, not you. It doesn`t stop it 100 percent, but you can
see how it dissipates a cough.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Masks do appear to make a difference for precisely that reason in
terms of you transmitting it. And this remarkable new study from South
Korea shows how prolonged indoor exposure, people sitting in close
quarters, right, so breathing the air around each other, is a main pathway
of the virus.
This is from a call center in South Korea. Look at the map of people. All
of the blue chairs are people who got infected, and look how clustered
together most of them are, just sitting right next to each other working
basically on top of each other.
Joining me now to talk about what we know about Coronavirus transmission is
Dr. Angela Rasmussen, a virologist and associate research scientist at
Columbia University`s Mailman School of Public Health.
So maybe start, Dr. Rasmussen, with the sort of overview about, like, what
are the main vectors? What do we think is the main thing that is
transmitting the virus. The highest risk stuff. And then we can move
towards the possible, but not the thing that`s driving infection.
DR. ANGELA RASMUSSEN, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Sure, Chris.
The primary mode of transmission for this virus is respiratory droplets, as
you just stated, and that study from South Korea really demonstrates that.
So, you have a lot of people in one room getting infected while the other
rooms on the same floor were not as affected. That suggests that this is
not small particle aerosols that are hanging around in the air, circulating
through the building and the air conditioning system, this is really
transmission of those types of respiratory droplets, those larger
particles, from people who are all in the same space together sharing the
And we think that largely, most of the transmission is driven by this
HAYES: And that makes me – as we`re learning about this and thinking
about this and thinking about what the world looks like right after lock-
down. You know, it makes you think about subway cars and crowded buses. It
makes you think about concert venues, certainly, but even big college
lecture classes, someone sits there for an hour and a half, it really sort
of to me puts into focus workplaces where they don`t have, you know, actual
offices. All the places that look like they`re probably going to be the
most high risk. Is that fair?
RASMUSSEN: That`s very fair.
I think one of the things that this study really underscores is how
effective these physical distancing and stay at home measures really are
for reducing the spread of this illness. And in an office environment, in
crowds like you just mentioned, with all of those examples appear to be
really good circumstances in which the virus can be transmitted to a
variety of people.
HAYES: The good news here, it seems to me is, is what we`re learning about
outdoor transmission and sunlight and what the risks are if you`re, say,
outside in a park and people are jogging past and they jog closer than six
feet, which happens. And it does seem – I mean, obviously people should
stay far away, but it does seem that in general, like being outside and
keeping your distance from people is pretty safe all things considered.
RASMUSSEN: I think so. I mean, the risk is not zero, certainly. Any time
you`re exposed to another person`s respiratory droplets, there is a
measurable risk. However, what we have learned about sunlight as well as
all the other variables in the outdoor environments, so wind, humidity,
temperature, that sort of thing, all of those can affect the amount of
virus that you were exposed to.
And if you`re not exposed to enough virus to actually initiate an
infection, you`re likely to not be infected.
HAYES: This gets to the surface of this question, and I know that some
people, like obviously in workplaces, like if we go back to that call
center, those surfaces are close to each other. People are maybe sneezing
on a keyboard, and another person is using it. But surfaces of say
packages, mail, things like that, I mean, again, the risk is not zero, I
don`t want to suggest that to anyone, but that seems further along the
spectrum of low risk if we`re sort of categorizing them. Is that fair?
RASSMUSEN: I think that`s very fair. It really a matter of probability.
So, you have to think what are the odds that your package handler is
infected with Coronavirus. They touch it. They`re not touching their hands
all over the entire package. They`re touching one part of it. So, what are
the odds you`re going to touch that exact same spot, get enough virus onto
your hands to establish an infection, then touch your nose in an amount of
time that that virus is still going ton infectious, those odds are fairly
good in terms of you not getting infected.
So, I think that touching packages, touching groceries, things like that
are relatively low risk activities, particularly when coupled with good
HAYES: I think that part of it, the outdoor stuff, the packages stuff is
sort of like anxiety reducing, but when you try to think about like how a
business that has a huge bullpen that looks like that one in the call
center is going to safely bring everyone back, that is a real head
Dr. Angela Rasmussen, thank you for sharing your expertise with us tonight.
We really appreciate it.
RASMUSSEN: My pleasure.
HAYES: Still ahead, the presidential election rolls on amidst the
Coronavirus pandemic and the latest swing state polling has the Trump
campaign under water. New numbers on the pandemic election ahead.
HAYES: We`ve been trying to take time each week amidst this pandemic to
commemorate some people that we have lost to this illness. It is an
overwhelming amount of grief for the nation and for the loved ones, of
course, of those who have died. But here are some of those people and a few
of their stories.
Skylar Herbert, she was just 5-years-old. You might have heard about her.
The daughter of a Detroit police officer and firefighter. She`s believed to
be the youngest person in Michigan to die from Coronavirus. Skylar loved to
dance and going to kindergarten. Her family described her as bubbly and
feisty. She could take over a room, her grandmother.
Phillip Thomas. He was 48-years-old when he passed late last month. He was
a resident of Chicago and worked at Walmart for nearly a decade. Philip`s
sister says he and his co-workers were like a family and she wants people
to know that he is not a statistic or a number, he was a great man.
Annie Grant, she worked at a Tyson Foods poultry plant in Georgia for
nearly 15 years to provide a future for her children. One of her sons,
Willie Martin, said his mother felt pressure to keep working after she fell
ill. He says he watched his mother take her last breath on his phone. Annie
Grant was 55-years-old.
Sammy Hooker was 89-years-old when she past the last week in Illinois. She
was an endlessly dedicate the mother, grandmother and great grandmother.
She was married for 70 years. Her family described her as smart, sweet and
sassy. She volunteered for many years as a hospice caregiver what she
described as the most fulfilling work of her life. Sammy Hooker was the
grandmother of Amy Hooker who is a very talented producer here at All In.
Maria Ineida Pineida (ph) of Brooklyn, New York was 71-years-old. She
emigrated to the U.S. from the Dominican Republic at a young age, became a
proud American citizen, mother of two and grandmother of six, Maria loved
to cook. Her generosity was legendary among friends and neighbors who she
was delivering goodies to a week before she went to the hospital. And her
niece Tonya McFarland is our outstanding technical production manager.
Donald Reed Herring, you may have heard of him as well, he was the other
brother of Senator Elizabeth Warren. The Senator she described him as
charming, funny and a natural leader. He was a career officer in the Air
Force who flew combat missions in Vietnam. He died earlier this week at the
age of 86.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN, (D) MASSACHUSETTS: Oh, wow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After all these years…
WARREN: I never saw this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.
WARREN: Did you see this typed up? I bet you daddy did this. The Herring
Production Company announces the 1933 Herring, quote, “baby boy model
number one. Don Herring designer and chief engineer, Pauline Herring,
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: This morning Ronna Romney McDaniel, who is the chair of the
Republican National Committee, tweeted out what I thought would be a kind
of funny and strange re-election message, quote, “we have a decision as to
who will restore our economy after this pandemic. Donald Trump has already
done it once and he is definitely the right person to do it again.”
I mean, first of all Donald Trump didn`t restore the economy. In fact, he
inherited a recovery that Barack Obama had started. Barack Obama had to
sort of restore the economy.
But it`s also just a really strange re-election message, like what happened
under his watch, right? For a guy who is going to run on the slogan keep
America great, and right now there`s tens of thousands of Americans who
have lost their lives and nearly a million who have had the disease when
this is all over and Trump has mismanaged all of this, there`s more than 26
million Americans who filed for unemployment over the last five weeks.
Congressional Budget Office now is estimating the gross domestic product
will plunge by nearly 40 percent in the second quarter.
So it`s really hard to argue you`re going to keep America great under those
circumstances, and recent polling reflects that. NBC/Wall Street Journal
poll released a few days ago shows Biden with a 7-point lead over Trump in
a national head-to-head match-up. Perhaps the most worrisome number for the
president comes from a new Fox poll, which shows Trump losing to Biden in
Florida, Michigan and Pennsylvania all while Joe Biden has not been
particularly present in the national conversation, which may not be a bad
strategy, to be honest.
Joining me now to talk more about this, Sam Seder, host of The Majority
Report podcast. And Sam, there`s been a bunch of reporting, I`ve seen a lot
of where is Joe Biden stuff. Part of this is just, it`s hard to break
through on anything right now. There is the virus is so, you know,
overwhelming in terms of our news coverage and everyone`s.
But it also strikes me that like this election was always going to be a
referendum on Donald Trump. You know, all re-elections are sort of
referendums on the incumbent, but never has that been more the case than
right now during this pandemic. What do you think?
SAM SEDER, HOST, “THE MAJORITY REPORT”: Yeah. I mean, I think that is the
case, more than likely. I think the Trump campaign was always going to
attempt to rather than sell themselves make it about their opponent
regardless of who it was going to be. And, you know, for now snapshot that
we`ve taken. But we really have no idea what the campaign is going to look
like three months from now, four months from now.
And, you know, you could argue that Joe Biden is following a strategy that
is a choice, or you could argue that Joe Biden is following a strategy
because it`s really the only one that he has at this point.
HAYES: I think that`s probably right. I mean, I think it`s both a choice
and it`s the one they have right now.
I mean, the thing that I keep thinking about this election, and again I
completely agree with you, I have no idea what the campaign looks like in
three months, what the country looks like.
HAYES: What the world looks like. What anything looks like, right?
But one thing that I now feel laser focused on is if you`re Joe Biden and
the Democratic Party, there are now two tasks ahead of you, one after the
other, both of them hard – defeating Trump and then dealing with a country
that is in wreckage, and it`s the second time in 12 years you`re going to
have to do that, and you better get ready for both of those things.
SEDER: I mean, look, I think there is a – there`s an internal logic to
the idea of like we`re going to let Donald Trump do damage to himself and
stand out of the way. But there`s a risk associated with that too, because
we`re going to need a plan going forward. And it`s unclear that Joe Biden
is putting out a sense that he has a plan.
I mean, look, it`s tough to break through, no doubt about it. But Andrew
Cuomo is out there doing this every day. And, you know, there are options
for Biden to go out and do it.
Now, yes, it involves a certain amount of risk, because you are creating
theoretically a target. But it`s not like they`re doing absolutely nothing.
I mean, someone released that he`s meeting with Larry Summers. And I don`t
know who that`s supposed to help in this situation.
But Joe Biden, you know, to the extent that he needs to do anything, he
needs to shore up his base on some level. And, you know, I doubt it was the
Biden campaign that released the fact that they`re meeting with Larry
Summers. I hope not. Because I can`t possibly imagine what the value of
that is, except to alienate people who remember Larry Summers from the last
HAYES: Well, that`s – I mean, the Summers news to me was upsetting, or
disconcerting, less on the politics of it, which – moving that aside, on
that second question, because that to me is like – again, two tasks in
front of Biden and the Democratic Party – beat Trump and then get
governing against a Republican opposition that will be implacable and
vicious, as they were 12 years ago. And the same ideological turn-about,
where all of a sudden where`s the money coming from? Deficits, oh, well
extended unemployment is about skills mismatch. And Summers got that wrong
the last time.
Like if there`s anything that has to happen here, it`s the lessons from the
very difficult period of the first few years of Barack Obama and Joe
Biden`s administration, which was very hard to be learned and applied this
SEDER: Right. And, you know, I take your point in terms of the politics of
it. But to the extent there are politics of it, it`s the progressive wing
of the party that seems to have the longest memory when it comes to Larry
And so, yes, I worry about it from a policy perspective. I worry about it
from a political perspective.
I mean, look, the Democrats right now are playing sort of four corners,
right? They`re just basically holding the ball, staying out of the way and
trying to run out the clock. It`s a strategy, but it`s a risky one because
to a certain extent someone has to step up and create a foil for Donald
Trump, in part for political reasons, but also from a policy standpoint.
I mean, this isn`t going to land. This whole crisis is not going to land on
its own. Somebody needs to step up and create some pressure, at the very
least from a policy perspective.
HAYES: And I think – and I think the fights the Democrats in congress
have picked, some have been very good, and they have been right on the
merits, some of them they have avoided, some of them they have lost. but
you`re going to have to have more political fights. And I understand the
urgency of speed and consensus and unanimous consent, I really get that.
There`s a million calculations
But as this goes further and particularly as the campaign takes shape, like
clear distinctions and fights about what the future is are going to be
absolutely essential in terms of determining what this campaign is.
Sam Seder sporting a very fetching quarantine beard on this Friday night.
Thank you for joining us.
SEDER: Thank you.
HAYES: That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show” starts
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
Copyright 2020 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>
Copyright 2020 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are
protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced,
distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the
prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter
or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the