Coronavirus cases TRANSCRIPT: 4/20/20, All in w/ Chris Hayes
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: – a bit of a response from some of this. But
that`s a product of the work done, not a reason to stop working. I want to
thank both of our doctors and Mr. Raines. I appreciate it. That does it for
me. I will be back here along with Brian Williams in the 7:00 p.m. Eastern
hour tomorrow. But don`t go anywhere, Chris Hayes starts now.
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes as we
enter yet another week of staying at home, the Coronavirus pandemic has now
taken the lives of nearly 42,000 Americans. It`s been over a month of
social distancing, six weeks in some places, and so it is extremely
understandable. And I say this as a personal expression of how I feel that
people are eager to get back to some kind of normal.
And while there really is some encouraging news out in New York, where the
one-day death toll fell below 500 for the first time since April 2nd, there
is still a long, long way to go. And yet the President has embarked on
this, I think, quite cynical and calculate a strategy to talk about the
future of the country totally reopen. There`s going to be restaurants that
are crowded and college football stadiums Alabama are going to be full. And
the messages were passed the worst of it already. We`re over the hump.
We`re going to get back to it.
But if you`re thinking in the long term, and it brings me zero joy to say
this, the reality is we are early in the parts of battling pandemic. Today
alone, today, we lost more than 1,300 Americans, the ones we counted. This
remains a four-alarm fire, not time to discuss what kind of redecorating
we`re going to do in the house when it`s all burned through.
And according to the head of the World Health Organization, unless the
world can work together, things are going to get worse before they get
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEDROS ADHANOM GHEBREYESUS, DIRECTOR-GENERAL, UNITED STATES: Without
national unity and global solidarity, trust us, the worst is yet ahead of
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The worst is ahead of us. Even if we`re able to open up in small
ways in the next few weeks, we will have to go back to staying at home if
cases spike. And this desire to look past the present ignores the fact that
there`s a crisis every hour every minute in American life right now.
And look at these headlines. This is just in the last 24 hours. There`s a
state prison in Ohio where 73 percent, 73 percent of inmates have tested
positive. 1,828 confirmed cases among inmates at that one prison alone. We
think it`s the largest cluster in America. Prison advocates have been
talking about this for weeks that this is going to happen.
In New Jersey, there are 425 outbreaks just at nursing homes. In Michigan,
the devastating news of a five-year-old girl succumbing to the virus. There
are just so many stories of the horror and the anguish this virus continues
to inflict on us every single day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEY WAY, REGISTERED NURSE, MOUNT SINAI: We ended up getting a patient in
a room that – I mean, she was basically dying. She was very unstable. We
were too worried to move her upstairs because – sorry. We were afraid that
she would die in the hallway.
So they set up – Mount Sinai has Zoom set up to where they can bring in
iPads in the room. And they get the family on the phones to make a phone
call to say their goodbyes over Zoom because we`re not allowed to have any
visitors right now.
So I would say that was probably my (INAUDIBLE) because I`ve never had seen
anything like that ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That`s the reality of right now. Not a few weeks from now, right
now. And every day we are seeing the federal government`s failures in
addressing massive shortfalls when it comes to testing and personal
protective equipment. We are also hearing more and more stories of how the
federal government and Trump ministration, it`s not just not helping,
actively harming state and local efforts to procure those goods.
On Friday, the New England Journal of Medicine published this remarkable
letter. It`s from a Massachusetts health care executive, a guy by the name
of Dr. Andrew Artenstein, who has been desperate to get personal protective
equipment for his healthcare system. And after seeing a number of deals
fall through, he arranged for a shipment of masks at five times a normal
He said two semi-trailer trucks cleverly marked as food service vehicles to
an industrial warehouse near a small airport to pick them up because he was
worried the feds might try to seize them out from under him. And the plan
was have the trucks take distinct routes away from the warehouse to
minimize the chances that the entire shipment would be commandeered by the
And yet when they got to the warehouse, two Federal Bureau of Investigation
agents arrived, show their badges and started questioning me. No, the
shipment was not headed for resale or the black market. The agents check my
credentials. I tried to convince them the shipment of personal protective
equipment was bound for hospitals.
The FBI eventually allowed the trucks to be loaded up but the doctor later
discovered the Department of Homeland Security was still considering
redirecting the shipment. “Only some quick calls leading to intervention by
our congressional representative prevented its seizure.”
This is the reality of now. This is what the people on the frontlines are
dealing with. It`s why Illinois governor J.B. Pritzker arranged secret
flights from China to bring millions of masks and gloves to his state. Why
Governor Larry Hogan of Maryland and his wife embarked on what he called
the confident project to get coronavirus tests from South Korea. Governors,
as well as hospitals and healthcare systems, are actually having to keep
the feds from finding out what they`re getting for fear will get hijacked.
And here`s the thing, these tests and this protective equipment that
hospital execs and governors are trying to acquire, it`s not just stuff we
need for a short period of time during a surge of use like ventilators,
right, which are needed when a city or localities overwhelmed by a health
care system. No. These things, tests, personal protective equipment, they
have to be a huge part of our lives the foreseeable future if we want to
get this nation back to something that looks approximately like normal.
Here with me now, one of the governors who`s been fighting to get
protective equipment for her state, Democratic Governor Kate Brown of
Oregon. Governor, can you talk – I mean, you in Oregon and Washington, I
think there`s been a lot of press about the job that you`ve done there. A
place That looked like it could have had a really, really severe early
outbreak. Because of the strong steps, I think, taken by yourself and
Governor Inslee and others local leaders, it has not been what we see in
And yet now as you sort of envision the future, talk about what you need,
what your state needs, if you`re going to start thinking about some sort of
GOV. KATE BROWN (D-OR): Thank you, Chris. I really appreciate the question.
In Oregon, we took early and aggressive measures to protect our people,
measures to socially distance and close down parts of the economy. And as a
result, we`re starting to bend the curve, but we are not getting the
supplies and testing equipment that we need.
States that did not take aggressive action are getting more help from the
federal government. So for those states that did the right thing and made
really, really difficult choices, it feels very punitive.
HAYES: The President has said and insisted multiple times and insisted
again today that there`s adequate testing, that governors like yourself
literally just don`t understand what`s going on, that you haven`t read the
proper documentation, that you don`t know where the labs are, and that
essentially you`re just complaining without understanding that actually
there are plenty of tests for you. Is that true?
BROWN: Dr. Birx, Deborah Birx told us today that Oregon is one of a handful
of states that has the lowing – lowest testing capacity in the entire
country. So even by their own information, they know we don`t have the test
that we need.
And we are very interested in reopening. We have rural communities that
have shuttered their businesses to protect their people. And we want to get
these small businesses up and running. But we need both additional personal
protective equipment and we need additional testing capacity. That`s what
the very – that`s what the federal government told us this morning.
HAYES: Have you found yourself in competition or in these kinds of crazy
situations in trying to acquire PPE, particularly, as people talk about,
you know, some kind of reopening, there`s going to be a lot of that needed,
right? I mean, places that didn`t used to have personal protective
equipment, obviously, if they`re, you know, running a grocery store, all
kinds of venues are going to have to need it now to protect their workers.
And that`s going to have to be secured somehow. Like, how are you finding
BROWN: Absolutely. We`re all in this together. And I`ve been really clear.
We`ve been working hard to collect PPE from around the state. Generous
dentist`s office, medical clinics have donated their personal protective
equipment, masks, gloves and gowns so that we could use them where it`s
most needed on the front lines in Oregon.
We have been working to conserve our PPE. But we`re also working to both
produce it and to procure it. We have a team that`s very aggressive both
working with national and international companies to get us the supplies
that we need.
And what I love most is the creativity and ingenuity of Oregon companies,
big companies like Nike and Intel working to produce personal protective
equipment. And then little companies like the Renewal Workshop Project in
Cascade Locks, working to create PPE. We even have our adults in custody in
the Department of Corrections making masks.
All of this is a collective effort. We`re going to need it obviously in the
ground – on the ground here in Oregon. But if we have enough here, then
we`ll be able to send it to other states and then maybe to other countries.
This is truly a global challenge. And we all have to work together to solve
HAYES: Final question to you. You have entered into this kind of pact with
California and Washington to coordinate kind of phased reopening or ending
the strictest part of lockdowns. And it strikes me, there`s news out of
Georgia today, Brian Kemp is lifting restrictions on places like nail
salons and bowling alleys and gyms.
As a governor, you know, if you`re – if you have a neighboring state that
were to do that, what would that mean for you given the fact that the virus
has no idea which state line it is in at a given time?
BROWN: That`s absolutely right. This virus knows no state boundaries, and
it knows no international boundaries. And that`s why I texted my colleague
Governor Newsome and Governor Inslee early on to say, can we coordinate and
align our work around opening up our states? We have a shared framework.
It`s going to be individual steps for our states.
But I am working hard to coordinate with our business community, for
example, our restaurants, and our personal services, our hair salons, to
get their advice about how we do this, and protect their clients and their
customers from the virus.
And it`s great to be doing this from a regional perspective. And we`re all
in this together. We need to be making shared sacrifices, and we need to be
sharing best practices.
HAYES: All right, Governor Kate Brown of Oregon, thank you for taking a bit
of time with us tonight. I really appreciate it.
BROWN: Thank you. Take good care. Be safe.
HAYES: I`m trying. I want to turn now to one of the best science journals
in the country, Laurie Garrett Pulitzer Prize Winner, columnist for Foreign
Policy, who has been tracking and covering this virus at the beginning. She
joins me now by phone. Laurie, I want to start with this idea of like where
we are in this trajectory. And I genuinely hate coming on the show, to say
to people like we`re a long way away, there`s a long way to go. But I do
worry that a gap has opened up between the expectations being set by the
White House and by some political leadership and what public health experts
and epidemiologists are saying about where we are in this.
LAURIE GARRETT, COLUMNIST, FOREIGN POLICY: Well, Chris, first of all,
apologies for not being on camera, and happy to be back with you. Yes, we
have a very long way to go. And you know, everybody`s event horizon that
they`re looking at right now is just, when can I get out of my apartment?
When can I go to a football game? But the event horizon that`s real in
terms of this virus is two years, three years, way down the road.
And look at what`s happening now in China. A whole second giant epidemic is
emerging in the far north near the Russian border. We see a resurgence of
virus, after everything proper was done in Singapore, in Japan. We have to
be very, very careful how we approach all this and understand that we can`t
simply test our way out of this pandemic.
We`ll never have enough test kits. Nobody is using them properly. Many are
inadequate in terms of their design and function. And honestly, we need
smart testing and nobody`s really talking about that.
HAYES: Well, I want to follow up on that I – if there`s any basket that I
think we are all tempted to put our eggs in, it is the testing basket, the
tests are way out of the crisis. So it`s somewhat deflating to hear you say
the sentence, we can`t test our way out of this. So please explain.
GARRETT: Well, first of all, a lot of employers who contacted me and they
think that literally they Going to be able to test all of their employees
say, you know, a million workers spread out over 12 countries and know
who`s infected and let the ones that aren`t infected come back to work.
But they have to understand you test them Monday, but they`ll be infected
on Thursday. So are you going to test every single employee every single
day? Similarly, kids going back to school? Are you going to test every
single school child every single day? Where are those tests kits going to
come from? Who`s going to manufacture them? And who`s going to do quality
control and regulate to make sure they really are what they claim to be as
What we need to be doing is a smart testing, really guided by scientific
principles where we target – we ask the right policy question and come up
with a way to answer the question with appropriate targeting.
So for example, let`s say you run a big automobile plant in Detroit, and
you want to know, can I – is it safe for me to let my workers back. We`re
not going to be able to test every single worker today, but you might be
able to set up a cohort of a representative sampling of your workforce and
test them on a regular basis. And similarly, school trips. You might be
able to say, what`s the rate in 12-year-olds in New Orleans today?
HAYES: That`s a great – a great point. And it sort of contrasts a little
bit with this, the news out of Georgia today, right? So the idea of like,
this has to be very thought through, there has to be the sort of
procedures. You know, Brian Kemp, Georgia governor today lifting some
restrictions, including things like nail salons, massage therapists,
bowling alleys, which seems to me like I don`t know, that seems like going
to be tough to do that in a safe way.
And then on top of that, which I find so bizarre and strange is then
issuing these guidelines about how you have to reopen. But it`s unclear
that the two mesh together like, can you safely social distance as a
massage therapist? I don`t – it doesn`t appear so. It just feels like
people are going to be left in the lurch with no actual clear indication of
what`s safe and what`s not if governments go about it this way.
GARRETT: One of the things I`m worried about, Chris, is that we`re headed
towards the sort of marketplace approach to risk assessment. So that, oh,
you open up – you say, OK, we can open up massage parlors, and leave it to
the customer. Customers would be aware. You walk up to the door, you know,
tap gently on the door and ask, have you guys been tested? And they say,
oh, yes, sure, sure we`ve been tested. We`re all clear of virus. Come on in
and let me give you a massage.
And you can – you could almost see that everybody`s supposed to just vote
with their feet, and their checkbooks deciding is this safe or not safe.
And that`s just not the way to go about this business. We have to be
thinking also about, you know, you just had the governor talking about the
competition between states and between large cities over who can buy what
test kits and driving the prices up.
Well, guess what, who`s really losing in that. Who`s really losing is poor
countries all over the world. All over the world, they`re being outbid by
Americans. And India has already protested that they had placed an order
with a Chinese testing company, and some Americans swooped in and bought
the whole order up.
We could end up looking like the big bad bullies on the international
stage, you know, stealing test supplies and reagents and so on that are
needed all over the world in order to satisfy some kind of his false sense
of security at this end. We need smart testing. And there`s been a lot of
good proposals. One in Massachusetts, there`s a new plan from David Bloom
out of Harvard. There`s several different groups that have come up with
strategic plans, strategic Plans, that means less actual tests that get you
better policy guidance answers.
HAYES: That is a – it seems like a very smart way to go. Laurie Garrett,
always so illuminating to talk to you. Thank you for all your great
reporting and taking time tonight.
GARRETT: Thank you, Chris.
HAYES: Next scenes from the very small but very vocal groups that have
gathered over the weekend protesting those stay at home orders. A dangerous
move spurred on to the propaganda network for the White House.
HAYES: Before we show you pictures of the small but loud, deeply unnerving,
and dangerous chorus of people calling for Americans to throw themselves on
the sacrificial altar of the virus in the name of a good Donald Trump
economy and liberty, it`s worth noting this polling out of Michigan, which
has been the site of some of these protests particularly targeted the
After weeks of attacks, getting called everything from a tyrant to a Nazi,
governor Gretchen Whitmer`s approval rating in Michigan of her handling of
the coronavirus is considerably higher than the President`s.
And yet a familiar marriage between Trump T.V. propaganda, wealthy right-
wing interests, and a base that runs on resentment have created this
phenomenon we`ve all seen, which again is small and absolute numbers, but
really one of the most disturbing I have seen in my time covering public
life, I got to say.
People huddled together in cities throughout the country today on the steps
of the Capitol in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, I suppose, I guess, putting
their bodies where their mouths are, so to speak. Yesterday in Denver,
Colorado, this is what happened when a nurse stood at an intersection to
block protesters to remind people of the human toll of all this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a free country. Land of the free. Go to China
if you want communism. Go to China.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Go to China. The entire phenomenon seems reverse-engineered to solve
a very obvious political problem, which is this. The country right now is
going through literally unprecedented economic devastation and misery and
mass death at a scale that`s impossible to contemplate. While the
conservative basis beloved leader is at the helm of all of it. So there`s
got to be someone else to blame.
For more on this phenomenon and the President`s propaganda arm that
encourages, I`m joined by Angelo Carusone, president of Media Matters of
America. You know, Angelo, this seems to be three ingredients here, which
is that there are actual people who were actually upset and I saw a guy
interviewed in Michigan about not being able to buy fertilizer.
And I have to say, like, I am sympathetic to people being frustrated and
upset about where everyone is at right now. Like it is genuinely
frustrating and upsetting that you know, people can`t do the normal things.
So there`s that. There`s a sort of normal kind of right-wing interest. And
then there`s to me – it just seems to me that the Trump T.V. aspect of
this is a largest. Like, how much did they gone all-in on these protests?
ANGELO CARUSONE, PRESIDENT MEDIA MATTERS FOR AMERICA: Oh, they`ve gone all
in. I mean, in the last week they`ve given it – there`s been 87 individual
segments discussing, promoting, advocating for this protest. None of them
are they criticizing them? Just a little bit of comparison. If you look at
the coverage that Fox News gave the Michigan event. That was more than a
coverage way more than the coverage that they gave to the Women`s March in
2017. Just that one small event, right, got more coverage from Fox News
than the entire Women`s March.
HAYES: It`s striking to me also – it is the case that the folks at Fox
News itself, like they aren`t coming to the building, they`re socially
distancing. They all have remote cameras. Like they`re – the people that
run the network from the business and H.R. side, don`t seem to think like
it`s fine for everyone just to get together and let`s go at it.
CARUSONE: That`s right. And I actually think that`s a good point. Because
it`s true from corporate policy in terms of their practices, they`re not
violating the social distancing. But what`s really interesting because I
think that this is a good illustration of the feedback loop between Fox and
the larger right-wing ecosystem and these individuals. Because, you know,
most of these Facebook events, we tracked, you know, more than 75 of them
across the country. It started popping up on April 10th.
So the question is what was happening in right-wing media before April
10th. And some of the most highly trafficked videos on the ninth and in the
few days before, but on the ninth in particular, was Tucker Carlson, and
other Fox News segments calling for an end to the national lockdown, making
an impassioned plea about liberty.
And it`s an important point because one of the things that took place in
those few days before you started to see these events beginning to pop up
was that Fox News stopped making the argument that they were still saying
it, but originally they were saying some, we have to be willing to
sacrifice grandma and grandpa for the sake of the economy.
But they made a switch. And you know, starting on April 7th, April 8th,
April 9th, they started saying that it`s not about the economy, it`s about
liberty and freedom. And that`s why we need to end these national
lockdowns. And immediately after is when you started to see these things
And look, some people get the message, right. It`s not just these
astroturfing kind of groups or these national level groups are putting in,
some of these events are being run by elected officials. In Maine, the
leading organizer up there is a sitting congressman. In Michigan, it`s a
state – it was a state representative and an advisory member to Women for
Trump that were really the leaders in the vanguards of these events.
So they sort of saw that opportunity right where Fox sort of creates a
demand, then you go out there and satisfy it, and Fox in turn rewards you
by bringing you on, just like they did with the sheriffs. You know, if you
were a sheriff and you announced that you were not going to have to find
people or punish people for violating these, you know, the orders of the
state, Fox would invite you want to celebrate you, right. So that`s what
they did. They create a demand, and then they`re able to satisfy it and
reward it, promote it, and amplify it.
HAYES: There this – Judge Pirro on Fox the other night had this – she had
a long monologue ranting about this. But there`s one part that stuck out to
me that I want to play for you. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANINE PIRRO, HOST, FOX NEWS CHANNEL: We want to go back to work, feed our
families. And as a governor sit there and pontificate, we are the ones
experiencing the reality that forever percentage drop in employment, there
are five to 10,000 deaths occurring.
HAYES: First of all, you`re at work. You don`t have to go back to work.
You`re – literally, your show is – that`s your work and you`re at a
remote camera. But also, I just thought this was interesting. As the
governor sit there and pontificate, they had found – I mean, the problem
here, right is like, how do you do a tea party, but it`s Donald Trump in
the White House, right?
How do you capture this kind of sense that people have that things are
amiss and awry and bad, but you`ve got down from the White House? And here
is the answer. The governors. The governors, the category of the governors,
they`re the ones to blame. And we`ve seen the president essentially work
hand in hand – hand in glove with that as a kind of national strategy for
actually battling the virus.
CARUSONE: That`s right. And I think you bring up a very good point there
because that`s exactly a big piece of this, is that you know, originally it
was he was going to be the decision-maker with respect to ending these
lockdowns right, but immediately retreated from that position.
And it was a very important thing when he started to shift because he said,
I`m authorizing the governors to make the decision. And that`s when Fox
News started to really aggressively begin to push for this idea that it was
time to end national lockdowns. And in particular, and this is where it`s
important, where the misinformation becomes fuel for these calls in these
So one of the things you heard on fox news that was not true, right, you
start to outsource it is that in Michigan, they banned the sale of the
American flag. They said that a bunch of times on Fox. That was repeated
over and over again.
And it sounds like, wow, maybe Michigan has gone too far? You know, you`re
not even able to buy a good old fashioned American flag there. And that`s
the point is that you create this demand. You fuel it with misinformation
which allows for you to then attack the governors for over stepping, right?
And these individuals are getting back out there to sort of correct things
and balance things out, right.
They`re only responding to the most unreasonable restrictions that don`t
seem to make any sense, but they actually under score another issue which
is that these governors, who all disproportionately happen to be Democrats,
right, or opposed to Trump, are bad.
HAYES: Yeah. Angelo Carusone thank down so much for running through that. I
really appreciate it.
CARUSONE: Thank you.
HAYES: Next, a shocking development today as oil prices plunge below zero
dollars going into negative – negative – hitting the lowest price in
history. Expert oil trader Dan Dicker is here to
explain what this all means after this.
HAYES: It was just a week ago that President Donald Trump was bragging
about his efforts to increase oil prices by working on a deal between his
good buddies, the strong man who is the head of Russia and the strong man
who is the head of Saudi Arabia.
Well, Wall Street Journal editorial praised the president for his bold
leadership saving U.S. shale producers. That was a week ago. Today, one
week later, U.S. oil prices plunged into negative territory. The price
settled at, get this, negative 37 dollars per barrel, which is down 305
percent, meaning people would pay you today to take their oil off their
It is actually the first time in the history of oil markets this happened.
What exactly does it mean? Why did it happen? What happens next? For all
that, we go to one of our favorite independent oil traders, energy market
experts, Dan Dicker, who is the founder and host of the interactive webinar
The Energy Word, among other things.
And Dan, I had one of my lifelong buddies say, literally text me, I got to
hear from Dan Dicker today about the negative oil prices. So, here you are.
Why did oil go negative today? What happened?
DAN DICKER, INDEPENDENT OIL TRADER: Well, basically what you have is you
had the Coronavirus, which had killed demand. So, a third of demand has
come out of the global market, but of course, a third of supply hasn`t come
out of the global market despite the great deal that President Trump had
managed to put together for 10 million barrels. So, 30 million barrels of
oil is the surplus that we have right now, but 10 million barrels is what
is cut. So there is 20 extra million barrels just sloshing around with no
place to go. All the storage is filled up, and when all the storage is
filled up, there is nobody who wants the oil. In fact, you have got to pay
people to take it away, and that`s what you saw today in the spot markets
HAYES: Right. So I read that like these are futures contracts that close on
May and when the contract closes, like you got to deliver the oil and
actually a specific place, this is West Texas crude. So it`s got to go to
Oklahoma. So there is actually like a bottleneck. Like you just don`t –
there is not the space to like off load all this oil.
DICKER: Right. The futures market, as you know, is a financial system, so,
you know, money changes hands, but when we get to this end of time when the
contract is actually due, we have got to turn this into real physical oil
and that changes the game entirely and you need to have people who actually
take it or going to deliver it. And right now, nobody will take it.
HAYES: So what does this mean? I mean, what are the sort of reverberations?
I`ve heard, well OK, this is just the end of May contracts are looking so
dicey, but then there will be future contracts after that, and it is going
to – it will come back up, but oil is just going to be crushed for the
foreseeable future, right? What does that mean more generally?
DICKER: Yeah, you know, I kind of look at oil as a canary in the coal mine
here, Chris, and thinking about it as if – you know, people are being
entirely too optimistic what COVID-19 is going to do to the global economy
in the long term, not in the short term.
I mean, you can protest all you want and you can, you know, say to liberate
the truth is no matter what you try to do in restarting the economy, nobody
is going to a restaurant as much as going to see a baseball game or a
concert or a hundred other things that would indicate a normal global
economy going forward.
So oil may be the canary in a coal mine. There may be repercussions through
places we haven`t even seen yet that are going to keep the economies
cratered, not just oil, you know, for a long, long time until we have, you
know, a vaccine. And that could be a year, a year, a year-and-a-half away.
I think that what this is telling me, at least, is that, you know, we`ve
been far too optimistic about how this is going to play out in the long-
term economically. And I think oil is telling you a
story how bad things are still going to get going forward.
HAYES: So you think this is – you think the oil market might be correctly
pricing in the level of future economic activity right now? Like, the
signal – if there is a signal here that`s other than sort of market panic,
which again, sometimes markets panic and they don`t necessarily send you
some intelligence signal about the future, but you`re saying to the extent
there is an intelligence signal about the future, a sort of forward
predictive price that`s happening here, it`s this market saying this is
going to be awhile, demand is going to be down for awhile.
DICKER: It did it in 2007. Oil started crashing well before the financial
crisis hit in 2008. I mean, it has been known to be an indicator.
Think about automobiles for example, Chris. I mean, if you have 20 percent
unemployment and, you know, automobiles, you know, millions, 15, 20 million
of them are leases, how many of those leases will get thrown back at the
banks? And what will the banks going to do with all these cars? And cars
prices are going to crater. And nobody is going to be able to sell a car.
Nobody in this country wants to buy a car. There is going to be tremendous
pressure on banks that have all of these loans basically that they are
getting back with cars that have very little value. They are going to see
cars go down the way crude did closer to zero.
And this, you know, reverberates in a thousand different ways where we
could call any commodity, not just oil, as being a victim of this virus and
the cratering going on in the global economy.
So I just don`t believe that we`ve seen anywhere near the worst of all of
this. And I think oil is telling that story right now.
HAYES: All right. Dan Dicker, always great to have you on explaining these
things, thanks a lot.
Coming up, the danger of broadcasting President Trump`s daily briefings
uninterrupted and the searing attack ad released by the Biden campaign.
That is just ahead.
HAYES: I have said on this program, many people have said, in fact, the
airing of the presidents` daily propaganda sessions can often be dangerous
to public health. That`s really my main concern with them separate from any
political benefits or political costs they might happen to have.
Though, it is notable several days ago some people close to the president
were telling The New York Times that they find the unhinged ranting and
bullying and performance of narcissism not great politically, quote, “the
White House was handing Mr. Biden ammunition each night by sending the
president out to the cameras.”
And interestingly enough, that view was echoed by Joe Biden`s digital
director yesterday on Twitter, quote, “don`t know when people on here are
like don`t air these press conferences when they are doing more work for us
than any ad buy could.”
Of course, President Trump does not see it that way.
So, now the Biden campaign is trying to use everything he said to their
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The buck stops here. Harry Truman said it. It means no excuses.
It means taking responsibility, the ultimate responsibility for the biggest
decisions in the world. Every great president has lived up to it, but
TRUMP: No, I don`t take responsibility at all.
First after all, governors a supposed to be doing a lot of this work.
We`re a back-up. We`re not an ordering clerk, we`re a back-up.
ANNOUNCER: Donald trump thought the job was about tweets and rallies and
big parades. He never thought he`d have to protect nearly 330 million
Americans, so he didn`t.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: I mean, what we are seeing is just a real-time example of just an
unbelievable failure to lead. And it`s not just about this crisis, it`s
also about the biggest one we face when all of this is over. We`re going to
talk about that next.
HAYES: From the beginning of this Coronavirus crisis, the obvious parallels
to the climate crisis have just been impossible to ignore. I keep thinking
about them, particularly as the pandemic plays out like an intensely sped
up acute version of the climate crisis, the same warnings, the same
disinformation, and no nothingness, the same tragic consequences, the same
failure to act.
Two aspects, in particular, have been haunting me. One is the invisibility
of the problem in a very literal sense. And the president has even taken to
calling the virus the invisible enemy, which is a happy bit propaganda, but
based on a kernel of truth we can`t see the Coronavirus, like you can`t the
carbon in the air. And it is hard to mobilize people around things you
can`t see. In the case of both the Coronavirus and carbon pollution, the
absence of spectacle is an obstacle to rallying people.
The second thing that is so maddening is that both the climate crisis and a
global pandemic did not come out of nowhere. They are not unlikely things
that might happen in the future we should plan for, no, according to
experts, they are certainties. Here is Bill Gates back in 2015.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL GATES, MICROSOFT FOUNDER: Today the greatest risk of global
catastrophe doesn`t look like this; instead, it looks like this. If
anything kills over 10 million people in the next few decades, it`s most
likely to be a highly infectious virus rather than a war, but we`ve
actually invested very little in a system to stop an epidemic. We`re not
ready for the next epidemic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Like Bill Gates, everyone who knows anything about global health and
virology, and transmission, has been screaming for years about exactly this
moment that we`re in, that it is not if, it`s when. And that is also
exactly what climate experts have been saying. And they have been called
into question, and they`ve been ignored, and they`ve been bullied, but
they`re saying the exact same thing as health experts did about a pandemic.
It`s coming. And yet here we are standing on the tracks watching the train
barrel toward us and refusing to get out of the way.
So I want to talk to a writer who has written about both of these issues,
David Wallace-Wells, deputy editor and climate columnist for New York
Magazine, his latest book was about the climate crisis, now he is covering
the Coronavirus pandemic, basically full-time, and he joins me now.
And David, I wonder how much you`ve been thinking about these parallels.
DAVID WALLACE-WELLS, DEPUTY EDITOR, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: They`re totally hard
to avoid, as you point out. And there are a lot more than the ones you have
just said, although those may be the most obvious ones. You know, the truth
is the lessons of the Coronavirus and climate crisis are quite similar,
too, in the sense that they remind us that we don`t live outside of nature
no matter where we are, no matter who we are, no matter what country we
live in or how rich we are, we still live subject to the laws of nature and
occasionally subject to its brutality.
And they also teach us that all of these crises, crises of this scale, are
much better when we get a handle on them really early. Studies out of China
show that if they acted three weeks earlier they could have avoided 95
percent of all of the spread of the Coronavirus through the country,
possibly preventing its spread throughout the world. And a new bit of
research this week shows that in New York, if we had taken action two weeks
earlier we could have prevented 90 percent of all deaths.
They also open up a whole new – the Coronavirus opens up a whole new
spectrum of political possibility that a lot of climate activists are
becoming quite excited about for some good reasons and for some complicated
reasons. But the truth is when you look out at the climate right now, it is
hard not to be moved by the expression of global solidarity and fellow
feeling that is demonstrated by a literally hemisphere-wide, quarantine
that is being engaged in willingly by billions of people, I mean part out
of concern for their own health but out of concern for the health of those
And considering that is really the ultimate project and challenge facing us
with climate change, how can we make everybody care more about our
collective fate? You can look at thin credible tragedy and horror with some
The question is whether we can sustain that kind of feeling through a year
or more of quite exhausting struggle, expensive public spending, and all of
the pain and suffering that we`re going to be witnessing, and come out on
the other side still with some political capital and some literal capital
to make the kind of investments in green infrastructure and power that we
HAYES: Well, that point of international solidarity I think is a really
important one, because it is something about the climate movement I always
find very inspiring and moving, you know, on days of these sort of
international global climate action, you will see like here are school
children in Nigeria and here are activists in Pakistan, and here are folks
in Seoul, South Korea, and here are people in Moscow, and here are people
in New York City, and it`s like right, we all got the same climate. We all
got the same thing we got to deal with. And you`re seeing that in this
pandemic, the same sort of moving feeling when you see health care workers
and you see nurses or you see people banging on pots and pans in all of
these countries around the world, very distant places, very different
people, and very different situations. And again, the thing we have to beat
is the same thing, and we all have to work together to beat it.
And in that way, this period also feels a bit like a test, right, like the
level of global coordination, in a short acute period, where there is some
political capital, because it is so pressing, as a kind of dry run for what
we need to do in a bigger scale afterwards.
WALLACE-WELLS: And we`ve accomplished honestly so much. I mean, in many
countries of the world, I would say, most countries of the world, we failed
to take seriously the Coronavirus crisis at the speed we needed to. And
yet, just in the space of just a few months, we`ve engineered a, as you
say, a kind of coordinated – although, not literally coordinated – global
response in which all of the nations of the northern hemisphere and many in
the global south, have basically up-ended all forms of life, all economic
activity, all social activity in their countries for the sake of self
It is amazing all of the things that we used to take for granted as
permanent, unmovable features of modern life, the way the economy worked
the unlimited ways our government could move quickly to protect us. All of
these things that we took for granted as unchangeable have been proven to
be quite changeable in just the timespan of just a few months when we
recognized just how big the crisis that we are facing really is.
We haven`t yet got there with climate change in part because it is still,
despite those inspiring marches, just, you know, just a small group of
people who really believe that this crisis is as urgent as the scientists
tell us it is, and we need many more people to feel that way.
With Corona – with COVID, almost everyone is as scared as they possibly
could be. And as a result we`re seeing top-down, but in other ways
voluntary efforts to basically change how we live on the planet, you know,
on a dime, and in quite dramatic ways, which you know honestly I find kind
HAYES: That`s a great – that`s a really great point, right? The suspension
of normalcy and the speed with which it has happened and the sort of
horizon of possibility, which is both sort of devastating and brutal,
because people are losing their jobs and people are going to food banks and
people are sick and all of that, but also the idea that you can coordinate
a remarkable amount. I mean half of the world`s population, all almost on a
dime, in a sense, right, in a few weeks, you have half the world`s
population, suddenly abruptly ending every single daily ritual, and daily
life as normalcy.
And also, the political possibilities, I mean we should note there is this
sort of, you know, you have the way that CO2 goes up, the way that
Coronavirus spreads through population, like those two graphs that we have
like both look unnervingly similar, and both sort of create this kind of
urgency to act quickly.
But there`s also the fact that like the political, the kind of political
frontier, the possible, how are we going to pay for it is this question
that haunted the questions of the Green New Deal. Now, it`s like
$2.2 trillion, out the door, in a few weeks.
WALLACE-WELLS: Yes, a few months ago, if you were to ask the average
American, would the country be willing to go into a total economic
shutdown, reduce its economic output by as much as 30 percent, impose 30
percent unemployment on itself, in order to save 1 to 2 percent of the
population, most Americans would have told you that was impossible. It
would have been an indictment of the country that it wasn`t – that they
did think it was impossible, but they would have told you that it was
really hard to imagine. And now here we are just in the space of a few
months and we have done exactly that.
And not only that, we`ve seen Republican senators proposing something like
UBI. We`ve seen talk about the government claiming some ownership stake in
airlines in exchange for bailouts. These are things that used to be so far
outside the Overton Window of political possibility that nobody ever talked
about it as imaginable. And now they`re very much at the center of our
We need to take that expanded horizon and apply it to climate change,
because we need many more things to happen that are enclosed within our
existing sense of what is possible. We need to expand that horizon on
climate, as aggressively as we have with COVID-19.
HAYES: It`s a great point. And this segment, which I didn`t necessarily
think would leave me feeling leavened and inspired has done that. We`re
going to keep talking about these parallels throughout the week this week.
David Wallace-Wells, thank you very much.
WALLACE-WELLS: Thanks for having me.
HAYES: That is ALL IN for this evening. “THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW” starts
right now. Good evening, Rachel.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
Copyright 2020 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>
Copyright 2020 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are
protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced,
distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the
prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter
or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the