Equinox, Soulcycle face boycott calls. TRANSCRIPT: 8/8/19, All In w/ Chris Hayes.

Cory Booker, Edward Bajoka, Mubin Shaikh, Paola Ramos, Josh Marshall, Elie Mystal

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  And that`s HARDBALL for now.  “ALL IN” with

Chris Hayes starts right now.







twice the number outside.


HAYES:  The President tours the aftermath of a racist massacre as the

deportation force conducts a massive raid.




HAYES:  Tonight, the latest example of how the cruelty is the point for

Donald Trump.  Plus –


TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, FOX NEWS CHANNEL:  White supremacy, that`s the

problem.  This is a hoax.


HAYES:  A sudden vacation for the face of Fox News as the Tucker Carlson

controversy grows.  Another Trump supporter accused of a violent crime

tries the Trump made me do it defense.  And the growing movement to boycott

businesses owned by a Trump-supporting billionaire.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Can`t see memberships today.


HAYES:  When ALL IN starts right now.




HAYES:  Good evening from New York I`m Chris Hayes.  President Trump

campaigned on two distinct sets of promises.  There was a group of people

he was going to help and a group of people he was going to hurt.  And by

and large, he has kept the latter set of promises.


We see it every day.  He has relentlessly demonized and insulted

immigrants, Hispanics, African-Americans, Muslims, and generally people who

live in cities.  He has produced to climate that many view as a direct

predicate for the acts of violence and harassment we`ve seen like the 22

dead in El Paso as just one of many examples.


He is also – and this is important – crucially followed through on policy 

He tried and ultimately succeeded in instituting a travel ban on people

from predominantly Muslim countries.  He separated 2,000 children from

their parents at the border.  And after a judge told him not to, he

separated 900 more.


He`s kept people including children in cages for weeks with no shower and

no toothbrush.  At least 24 immigrants have died in ICE custody during

Trump`s administration.  That number doesn`t include five children who have

died in the custody of other federal agencies.


Now, here are two new cruelties.  Yesterday, ICE agents raided seven

worksites in Mississippi arresting about a 700 – 680 people they say are

undocumented immigrants.  The raid conducted just days after a gunman

targeted Hispanic shoppers in El Paso Walmart, is the largest rate in any

single state in American history.  And those 680 arrests left hundreds of

terrified American children alone to wonder if they would ever see their

parents again.


Meanwhile, the Trump administration deported a Detroit resident to Iraq

even though he had never been there before.  Jimmy Aldaoud was an Iraqi

national, was born in Greece.  He came to the U.S. when he was six months

old legally.  He never lived in Iraq.  He didn`t speak Arabic.  He was an

American in every conceivable way.


He was a man who`s a member of a persecuted Christian group in the Middle

East.  ICE says he had at least 20 convictions over 20 years but friends

say he also suffered from schizophrenia and other mental health issues.





street, I`m diabetic.  I take insulin shots.  I`ve been throwing up,

throwing up.  Sleeping in in the street, trying to find something to eat. 

You know, I`ve got nothing over here as you can see.


I was kicked in the back of a couple of days ago, claiming that, you know,

get off the guy`s property.  I was sleeping on the ground.  He claimed it`s

his property.  You know, I begged him.  I said, please sir, I`ve never seen

this country.  I don`t understand the language, you know.




HAYES:  Now that man that you just saw is dead because apparently, he was

unable to get insulin in Baghdad to treat his diabetes.  So my question is

this.  How do any of those things help the people Trump said he would help? 

Who is made better by it?  Those kids crying for their parents in

Mississippi, the traumatized children, they`re American citizens.


The president is hurting those Americans.  A dead man on the streets of

Baghdad who was lonely, and scared, and sick, whose life did that make

better in America?  Whose job did that bring back?  Whose income rose

because of that?  Who no longer has to deal with the ravages of opioid

addiction in their family because that man is dead on the streets of

Baghdad, because those kids are wailing because they don`t know if they`ll

ever see their parents again?  The answer is no one.


And that`s a fundamental calm at the heart of Donald Trump.  He says I`m

going to hurt these people and I`m going to help you.  And he can deliver

on the first part but he`s done just about nothing on the second.  There

are hundreds of people to close mine and Wyoming`s sitting around with no

paycheck.  We covered them


We`re in the second week of the miners down in Harlan County not letting

the coal trains through because their mine is shut down and their pensions

were late and their owed back pay, they say.  And the people in Morristown,

Ohio who told – who Trump told not sell their own homes, they had their

factory shut down.


And farmers across the country are struggling with unplanted fields, having

to make up on Trump`s welfare handouts.  The economic growth that Trump is

so happy to tout has disproportionately happened in precisely the same it

was already happening before, in large metro areas among people who had

already participated from the boom.  It has helped those who were already

reaping the benefits.


In fact, there is one group of people Trump did say he would go after where

he has broken that promise, and that is the Titans of corporate America and

the globalist elites because the banks are running wild and corporate

America got a trillion dollars in tax cut.


So for the immigrants, it`s punishment, and misery, and humiliation.  And

for the owners, well apparently, get this, the people who owned the chicken

plants in Mississippi that were raided who had employed all these

unauthorized immigrants, they apparently were not arrested.  ICE won`t



But when you think about it, how could they be arrested?  Donald Trump has

been doing the same thing in his own businesses for years exploiting

immigrant labor.  In fact, the 680 people detained in Mississippi was the

largest such raid since 389 people arrested in 2008.  And the owner of that

plant was subsequently convicted of money-laundering.


But President Trump commuted his sentence in 2017.  That`s the deal.  You

in Morristown, you`re not going to get to keep your job, but instead,

you`re going to get real acts of savage cruelty against some struggling

families down in Mississippi while Trump stuffs fat cats full of cash and

parties with them in the Hamptons.


And meanwhile, all the structural inequalities in America, the great

hollowing out of the industrial core and rural America and the declining

life expectancies of the first time since World War II, the 70,000 people

were losing every year to opioids, all that will go on, because Trump and

his party in his donors could not possibly care less about all that.


Look over here the people aren`t hurting because that`s all you`re going to

get.  Joining me now is Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey.  He`s a 2020

Democratic presidential candidate, called out President Trump in a speech

yesterday for “weaponizing hate.”  Senator, why did you feel the need to

give that speech?  What do you want to do with that speech?



sorry, this is a little off-script but what you were just saying is one of

the best expositions against this president.  He`s hurting the people he

tried promised to hate.  I mean it was – it was brilliant and I`m grateful

for you laying it so plain.


And my speech yesterday at Emanuel AME was a really important location to

talk about what we`re seeing in America right now which is the fact that

since 9/11, the majority of our terrorist attacks have been right-wing

extremist groups.  The majority of them have been white supremacist groups.


And this violent white supremacy has been a part of our culture to the tune

of killing thousands and thousands of people, beating folks, burning

buildings, burning churches.  This is a long history, in fact, Emanuel AME

in generations ago was burnt to the ground when blacks were forbidden to

gather and congregate.


And so I wanted to talk directly to the – confront the Disneyland history

that we often tell where we actually diminished the greatness of this

country when we don`t speak to what we had to overcome to get to where we

are.  And right now we need that spirit more than ever to combat the ills

of violence and white supremacy.


HAYES:  You know, people – there`s been this sort of strange to me a

little bit in these news cycle about is the president racist or is he a

white supremacist, and I`m not sure where you come down on that, and you`re

shaking your head.  Why you`re shaking your head?


BOOKER:  Well, I said in my speech yesterday this impotent simplicity of

asking who`s racist or whose white supremacist, it is distracting from what

the deep question is which is does racism and white supremacy exist.  And

if it does exist, then the question – the most important question is are

you doing something about it or are you not.


Because King said so eloquently that when we have to repent for in this day

and age it`s not just the vitriolic words and violent actions of the bad

people, but the appalling silence and inaction of the good people.  If

racism exists in our society, it doesn`t – it`s not enough to say I`m not

a racist, you must be anti-racist.


You`ve got to get off the sidelines because if there`s injustice in this

country is a threat to all of us, then you must be an activist against it. 

And that`s a much more constructive question.  If this is an ill that

exists in our society as an act of patriotism, what are you doing actively

to deal with this crisis?


HAYES:  This – the moral urgency here seem very clear and it`s been

channeled by you and others I think in the face of what we see in the last

week.  I don`t ask a political question that I don`t want to seem glibly

amoral, but because you are running for president, it`s I think an

important one.


Do you worry that these sorts of questions about the sort of existential

nature of America as a multiracial democracy and who is American, the

debate on those fundamentally end up playing on Trump`s terms or putting

the emphasis where he wants to put them and not on say the coal miners out

of a job in Harlan, Kentucky etcetera.


BOOKER:  Yes, look, I am getting tired of political positioning and

analysis because it distracts from what America`s are upset about, that

there`s no larger sense of moral urgency.  Let`s worry less as a party

about the politics and start talking to the people, talking to the hurt,

addressing the challenges that we have.


Trump is brilliant at trying to distract us to make it all about him, what

he said, what he`s doing.  Yes, that`s important.  But let`s not – let us

distract from I think the urgencies of coal miners, of people out in farm

country, of people in inner cities who are just looking for leaders that

will speak with plain moral clarity about the challenges and the issues

they`re going on the larger systemic problems.


It`s why I criticize folks all the time to making this all about Donald

Trump.  And I know the number one polling issue in our party is who can

beat Donald Trump.  But I`m like God, can`t we have bigger aspirations than



Beating Donald Trump should be the floor but it`s not the ceiling.  It

should – it should be – gets us out of the valley but it doesn`t get us

the mountaintop which is dealing with these trends, as you and I have

talked about before that have now been going on is for a generation that we

have to address with more of a sense of moral urgency, moral clarity, and

the kind of leaders that can inspire us to come together across the lines

that often divide us to create real American change.


And you`ll find that we have a lot more when it comes to that.  We have a

lot more that we agree upon than we disagree upon.


HAYES:  Yes, do you think that – I mean, there`s sort of two schools of

thought I think on the country, right.  There`s one that it`s deeply

structurally polarized and you have to sort of understand that and see that

in a clear-eyed sense.  And we`ve seen that you know, in the – in the last

midterms where Dems picked up 40 seats in the – in the House and they lost

a bunch of Senate seats in conservative states.


And there`s others I think who see that structural polarization is

essentially a little bit of misleading.  It sounds like you`re in the

second camp.


BOOKER:  I definitely am in the second camp.  You know, you and I both know

if you talk through that political lens, a Republican, do you support

ObamaCare, heck no.  Well, do you support making sure people have insurance

even if they have a pre-existing condition?  Yes, well, I support that.


Do you support people staying on your health insurance till your 20?  When

you start breaking it down, they support all the constituent parts.  And

that`s because we see a Republican Party that`s trying to hold on to power

by doing everything from voter suppression to trying to tell these tired

tropes to scare people away from what`s in their best interest.


And so the best leaders I`ve seen through our history are those who are

able to cut through that to sort of spark a larger moral imagination

amongst people that are outside of these lines.  And that`s why I keep

telling people that we as Democrats shouldn`t be just simply saying OK, the

end we want to is to beat Republicans.  No.


I think the bigger end we should talk to is about uniting Americans in the

larger urgencies of justice in our country.  And I think that that kind of

leader that can inspire that or those kinds of leaders because this is not

a one-person game, those kind of leaders are going to help us get back on

track and deal with these issues.


HAYES:  All right, Senator Cory Booker, thank you very much for making time



BOOKER:  Thank you very much.


HAYES:  Joining me now is Edward Bajoka.  He`s an immigration attorney and

he`s a family friend of Jimmy Aldaoud, the lifelong American who was

deported to Iraq.  First, I guess, I just want to express my condolences

for the family`s loss.  How did this happen?


EDWARD BAJOKA, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY:  Well, as you stated earlier, Jimmy

came into the United States at the age of six months old.  He was born in

Greece to Iraqi refugee parents.  They fled religious and ethnic

persecution in Iraq and found their way to Greece.


HAYES:  They were Christians.


BAJOKA:  They were Christians, correct, and members of the Chaldean ethnic

minority group.  They found their way to Greece.  That`s where Jimmy was

born.  And about six months after his birth, they came to the United

States.  The only thing that separates Jimmy from me as a citizen who was

born in the United States and you is about six months of his life.


HAYES:  Just to be clear, he came legally.  I mean, the parents came as

legal or refugees, correct?


BAJOKA:  That`s correct.  They were granted refugee status and they arrived

here in that manner.


HAYES:  And ICE says look, he`s got all these convictions.  He did 17

months I think at some point I think for breaking and entering, that he has

a long rap sheet and so sorry, too bad you broke the law.


BAJOKA:  If you look at Jimmy`s convictions in his criminal history,

they`re all related to his mental health issues.  Jimmy has been a bipolar,

schizophrenic, paranoid schizophrenic.  He`s suffered from severe

depression and severe anxiety, and these problems have plagued him and

troubled him for his entire life.  They`re the root cause of every single

one of his criminal convictions.


If you look at some of the convictions, one was a home invasion for

breaking into a neighbor`s garage and stealing his tools.  An assault

conviction was related to an incident with his father when Jimmy was having

a manic episode.  This goes deeper than that.


It`s not only a failing of the immigration system, and cruelty shown by

ICE, but it`s also a failure for this country how we deal with people that

have mental health issues.  So Jimmy`s case is really unique and it`s

really sad in the sense that this man is now – is now gone in a cruel and

unusual fashion. 


HAYES:  Am I correct the Christian sect, a version of Catholicism,

Chaldean, a group of believers, Christian believers from Iraq that there

was an actual ICE rate of that sub-community in Detroit and 2017 that

picked Jimmy up the first time?


BAJOKA:  That`s correct.  There are 1,400 Iraqi nationals around the

country with final orders of removal.  And in June of 2017 ICE raided and

did a mass raid and focus specifically on the Chaldean community in Detroit

under the pretext that they would be able to deport these individuals to



Iraq had not been accepting deportations from the United States for decades

since prior to the first Gulf War in 1990.  This was done without warning

and it was done as a – it was – it was part of a negotiation that the

administration met made with the Iraqi government to take them off of the

travel ban list.  And so you could also say that Jimmy`s death is as a

result of what – a side effect of the Travel ban.


HAYES:  They put him on the travel ban, the first iteration, and then they

negotiate with the Iraqi government and says, we`ll take you off the travel

ban that we`re – that flows from the president wanting to ban all billion

Muslims, if you take our – if you start accepting deportations.  And then

they go round up a bunch of folks who are predominantly Christian –

persecuted Christians from Iraq to send them back to Iraq.


BAJOKA:  That is absolutely correct.  And I would add that in 2016, our

Secretary of State John Kerry declared what happened to the Christians in

Iraq at the hands of ISIS was a genocide.  So our government for the past

two years has spent millions of dollars trying to deport people to a

country that were their fellow Chaldeans had had just been victims of



The Christian population in that country is almost zero at this point.  The

last estimate is that it was under 200,000 and that`s from a high of 1.5

million before the U.S. invasion in 2003.  At this point, the estimates are

under 200,000.  And I would guess it`s probably even lower than that. 

Jimmy is – was in a unique situation and that he was never even born in





BAJOKA:  He had no knowledge of Arabic.  He spoke English and a little bit

of Aramaic which is the Chaldean language.  He had no way to communicate

with anyone in that country.  And that is again another factor that led to

his death.


HAYES:  Again, I`m just so sorry about what happened to Jimmy and my

deepest condolences to his family and thank you for telling his story

Edward Bajoka.


BAJOKA:  Thank you.  Thank you, Chris.


HAYES:  Next, the man who insists that the scourge of white supremacy in

America is a hoax just announced a long-standing vacation.  Trump T.V. is

handling the growing Tucker Carlson backlash in two minutes.




HAYES:  In the wake of the murder of 22 people in El Paso who were gunned

down by a suspect who allegedly warned of a Hispanic invasion, Trump T.V.

host Tucker Carlson stared at the camera and declared that white supremacy

is not a real problem in America.  In fact, he called it a hoax.


In the wake of those comments, there are calls to boycott Carlson`s

advertisers.  The hashtag fire Tucker Carlson began trending on Twitter not

for the first time incidentally.  And then last night at the end of a show,

Carlson announced he was going on vacation.


A spokesperson insists the vacation had been planned before the uproar over

his white supremacy comments, but sudden vacation announcements have been a

go-to move for Trump T.V.  Last March Laura Ingraham announced a vacation

after coming under fire from mocking Parkland survivor David Hogg.  Sean

Hannity went on vacation after advertisers fled over his promotion of a

conspiracy theory that exploited the death of DNC staffer Seth Rich.


Jesse Watters took time off after criticism over a lewd comment about

Ivanka Trump.  And Bill O`Reilly took what he insisted was a pre-planned

vacation after revelations he had settled multiple sexual harassment

allegations and he never returned.


As I discussed last night, Carlson is the most adept and sophisticated

communicator on Trump TV when it comes to pushing ideas that have been

embraced by white supremacist.  But the tone is set from the top.  Parent

company Chairman Rupert Murdoch and his son the CEO Lachlan Murdoch who ran

a media empire who pushed nativist ideas across the globe.


Rupert is reportedly “a big Carlson fan” and made the decision to give him

his primetime show.  After Fox News CEO Roger Ailes was forced out amid

sexual harassment scandals, the Murdoch`s eventually installed one of Ailes

longtime acolytes Suzanne Scott, a longtime employee who had reportedly

been in charge of enforcing Roger Ailes miniskirt dress code for women at

Fox News.


Scott has been running the channel since May of 2018 and overseeing the

type of programming that Tucker Carlson now wants to pretend does not

exist.  Joining me now MSNBC Political Analyst

Jason Johnson, Politics Editor at The Root.


It`s interesting to me how much this has popped.  Because it you know, it`s

not – this is in line with the way that they talk over there, but there`s

something about this moment particularly in the wake of what we`ve seen

that has seemed to really sort of grab people`s attention.



can see through it, right?  I mean, first off this is like whenever any

celebrity entertainer on tours like I need to spend time with my family.


HAYES:  Exhaustion.


JOHNSON:  Yes, exhaustion.  That`s why I have to stop the tour.  So we know

that this is actually because of the push back.  And we`re at a moment now

where the country is actually in pain.  It isn`t trying to listen to the

ridiculous both side-ism, disingenuous excuses that Tucker Carlson has



But again, the larger issue is this.  This isn`t new.  He`s been playing up

Forever 21 Klansmen for like four or five years now.  Like this isn`t a new

thing for Tucker Carlson.  So I think what Fox is realizing from a business

perspective is that oh wait, this doesn`t sell the way it used to.  Bowties

and earnest frowns don`t sell the way they used to.  And that`s why –


HAYES:  He`s on a necktie now.  I`m just – feel free to correct.  Well,

but – well, it`s so – I mean, look, there is also – there`s advertising

pressure, right.  But it is interesting to me like when you look at the

board, there`s some – put the board up at the Fox Corporation board.  So

Rupert and Lachlan, Paul Ryan is on there.


Now, it`s interesting to me Paul Ryan is out there because Paul Ryan last

seen hand-wringing in Tim Alberta`s book about oh but behind the scenes, he

was so troubled by Trump and Trump`s moral failings.  But you know, he`s in

an abortive corporation that is promoting the great replacement theory that

white people are undergoing a replacement, and that Latinos and immigrants

are invading the United States.


JOHNSON:  And the problem is Paul Ryan is the quintessential example of

what`s going to be the new thing probably from this year to next year is

you know, gosh, I just want the tax cuts not the racism, right.


HAYES:  Yes, that`s true.


JOHNSON:  And that`s essentially what Paul Ryan is.  And you have a lot of

people who may personally in any personal way their own sense of moral

decency, oh I don`t like these blatantly racist things but all the other

policies are fine.  And again, that will work.


As a matter of fact, Chris, unfortunately, that may work in a month.  But

right now when the country is in our face faced with these words lead to

consequences and death, everybody gets afraid.


HAYES:  I mean, I think, right.  When someone murders 22 people, they

target Hispanics and they say they`re doing it because they think there`s

an invasion, like it has a kind of clarifying effect.  I should say Oliver

Darcy called the board for comment.  Total silence.


One of the Fox board member, former Telemundo CEO Roland Hernandez actually

abruptly hung up on me when I phoned him and started to ask about Tucker`s



JOHNSON:  That`s not surprising.  How many – how many times you can

justify this.  And here`s the thing.  We already know that like OK, many of

these shooters have quoted Donald Trump but they had Cesar Sayoc has Donald

Trump all over his car.  How are we going to start holding these people

accountable, right?


Because I stand back and I look at this and I see Tucker Carlson is a guy

who has repeatedly failed in television, who`s basically been given media

welfare a prime-time spot who replaced a guy who left because of maps of

sexual harassment issues, and he`s still being promoted not because he`s

good at his job, not because he has the skills of that a person that he

replaced, but because he promotes a certain kind of bigotry that other

people can`t say as eloquently.


What do we do with that as a society?  Do we constantly call him out for it

or do we pretend he`s actually just an entertainer.


HAYES:  Well, he`s talented at serving it up.  I mean, he is.  I mean,

that`s  –


JOHNSON:  But there are people who were better at it.  And to be perfectly

honest with you –


HAYES:  Well, it`s that really what you want?  That`s like asking Trump to

get off the golf course.


JOHNSON:  I mean – but I think the issue is if you`re constantly being

busted for not being able to say the quiet part loud, you know, you`re

constantly saying the quiet part loud, that`s a problem.


HAYES:  Well, but that`s the thing.  It`s like to me this is – this is

very similar to Donald Trump, right.  Donald Trump comes down the escalator

and he says Mexico is sending rapists and everyone`s like whoa, dude,

that`s a really race – I mean, first of all, it`s not true but also that`s

a regular racist thing to say.  And remember that all these sponsorships

got canceled.


JOHNSON:  Right.


HAYES:  Right?  People reacted.  But then it was just like oh wow, there`s

just enough people that like this that he`s just going to keep going.  And

that`s basically the same – the same issue with Trump T.V.


JOHNSON:  Right.  And here`s the thing.  From a financial standpoint, fine,

here are people who still want to watch that kind of nonsense.  But I`m

saying for the rest of us in the media system, for everybody else who`s

talking about, we have to now frame this as this is somebody who basically

supports terrorism.  This is someone who is disingenuous.


If you`re talking about this white nationalist rhetoric, you can`t be a

white nationalist.  You can`t support white nationalist rhetoric without

supporting terrorism.  It can`t be accomplished without it.  And I think he

should be framed in that way.  The people who promote that kind of –


HAYES:  I don`t know if that`s true.  I don`t know if I agree with that.  I

really don`t. I mean, I think supporting terrorism is distinct from sort of

supporting the predicate for what has happened, right.  I mean, there are

people who can be – have violent ideologies who don`t support violence or

maybe that`s not possible.


JOHNSON:  You can`t support white nationalist without supporting terrorism

because you can`t accomplish white nationalism without state-sponsored or

individual violence.  You can`t.  It requires movie people from a country

that they have always been.  So that`s terrorism.


HAYES:  Jason Johnson, thanks for being with me.  Ahead, another Trump fan

accused of a violent crime tries the Trump made me do it defense.  Can

sustained messaging radicalize someone towards violence?  I`ll talk to

someone who says that happened to him right after this.




HAYES:  A lawyer for a Montana man accused of attacking a child who didn`t

remove his hat during the national anthem says the man thought he was

acting in line with the president`s wishes.


39-year-old Kurt Brockway (ph) was arrested this weekend after he allegedly

grabbed a 13-year-old boy by the throat at a rodeo and slammed the child to

the ground, fracturing the boy`s skull. The boy then had to be airlifted to

a hospital in Spokane, Washington.


And he did this, apparently, because the boy wouldn`t remove his hat during

the national anthem.  Brockway`s (ph) defense attorney told the local

newspaper that Brockway (ph) has a traumatic head injury, but added that

Trump`s rhetoric also played a role, quote, “his commander-in-chief is

telling people that if they kneel they should be fired, or if they burn the

flag, they should be punished.  He certainly didn`t understand it was a



This is the second time in less than a month that lawyers for someone

accused of violence argued the president`s words helped move them to

violence, that was the case of the MAGA bomber, Cesar Sayoc, whose

attorneys wrote in a July sentencing memo, quote, “in the lead-up to the

2018 mid-term elections, President Trump warned his supporters that they

were in danger from Democrats and at

times condoned violence against his critics and quote/unquote enemies.”


Before Sayoc, there were the three men who plotted to blow up a Kansas

apartment complex, home to a number of Somali refugees.  In a rambling

manifesto, the three railed about immigration and what they describe is a

sellout of the country.


Here with me now to talk about how lone wolf individuals can be radicalized

towards violence by sustained propaganda is someone who knows quite a bit

about the topic.  Mubin Shaikh is a former extremist who then took a U-

turn, worked under cover of the Canadian security intelligence service, and

the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to fight terrorism.  He is the co-author

of the book about his experience, “Uncover Jihadi: Inside the Toronto 18 Al

Qaeda Inspired, Homegrown Terrorism in the West.”


I guess I want to start with stating an obvious fact and get your response

to it, which is these are defense attorneys who are attempting to sell a

story that is exculpatory to their clients about their clients` alleged

acts of violence, alleged in the case of the individual who choke-slammed a

13-year-old and convicted in the case of Cesar Sayoc.  Should we take them




receiving end of cross-examination by defense lawyers, so I don`t really

take their arguments seriously.


HAYES:  What, though, do you think is the connection, if any, between a

kind of atmosphere and propaganda and the way that an individual can become

motived to violence?


SHAIKH:  Yeah, I mean, there are always a number of factors involved,

right?  It`s very rarely it`s just one factor.  I`ve made other comments

about the interplay between ideology and grievances.  The way the quote

goes is ideology without grievances doesn`t resonate, and grievances

without ideology are not acted upon.


Now you throw into the mix, let`s say, a charismatic preacher, a radical

preacher, speaking to

individuals who are coming out of an environment where they`re feeling

frustrated, they feel that their way of life is under attack, their

religion might be under attack, their country is under attack.  This is

what motives people.  As soon as you convince them that they face an

existential threat from a perceived enemy, that is what moves people from

talk to action.


HAYES:  Do you view – how do you view, having had the experience you had,

sort of falling under the sway of this and being immersed in it, how do you

view the rhetoric of, say, the president and the various sort of propaganda

arms that echo his message?


SHAIKH:  Well, you know, if you look at the propaganda that`s being

promoted by various  spokespersons, whether officially on the far right or

undercover far right, if you will, various media personalities and others -

- I think you were talking about Tucker Carlson earlier, and he mentioned

that he believes white supremacy is a hoax.


And it`s these kinds of ideas,  right, it`s the downplaying of it, it`s the

normalization of it, that makes it easier for people who are already on the

fringe, who are already on edge, who have, you know, difficulties managing

the changes that are happening in the world, it`s very easy for these

people to plug into these kinds of – this kind of rhetoric and think you

know what, it`s up to me to act, because  nobody else is doing it. 


And this is something that`s common, again, with jihadists and far right,

this belief that I am that  authentic pure vanguard that is going to do

what nobody else is going to do.


HAYES:  And it seems to me that in the cases of the most extreme rhetoric

on the far right, and where there are some real echoes of parallels of say

ISIS in places like the 8Chan message board, that sort of explicit call to

act is also important, right?  More than just the kind of rhetoric

demonizing the other, and this is a threat to your way of life, but active

encouragement, active and direct encouragement about acting in some violent



SHAIKH:  Yeah, I mean very recently four-star marine general, General John

Allen, who was running the war against ISIS made a comment how similar the

two groups actually are – the dehumanization, the whole notion that access

to weapons, dehumanizing rhetoric in particular.  So when you say explicit

calls to actions, sure, a lot of these platforms, whether ISIS or 8Chan,

not only do they have these explicit calls, but it`s the subtle calls, it`s

the dog whistles where you don`t have to

say – you don`t have to say go out and attack these people using these

weapons, you`ve already created the conditions for that person to go out

and do it themselves.  And then celebrate it online in these platforms,

which is exactly a mirror image of what ISIS does, and with what far right

people do on 8Chan.


HAYES:  All right.  Mubin Shaikh, thank you so much for sharing time with



SHAIKH:  Thank you.


HAYES:  Coming up, a Hamptons fundraiser for the president elicits a

national movement of

boycotts, the devil`s bargain with corporate America made with the

president ahead.


And tonight`s Thing One, Thing Two starts next.




HAYES:  Thing One tonight, the Iowa state fair kicks off today, an annual

tradition dating back to 1854 that attracts more than a million people from

all over the world.  The fair is known for a lot of

things like agricultural contests.  They`ve already crowned this year`s

prize winning big boar.  His name is captain.  He weighs in at 1,254

pounds.  He is not feral. And according to his caretaker, he likes to have

a shot of Captain Morgan in the evenings to mellow out.


The state fair foods also of course a big draw, especially the enormous

variety of things on a

stick, more 70 available this year, including bacon wrapped deep fried

Italian sausage, deep fried Twinkies and a salad?


But arguably the star of the show is the butter cow.  This year, he comes

compete with a hard hat to fit the building for our future theme, and a

collection of Sesame Street character friends.


Of course, the Iowa State Fair is also a major political location. 

Candidates have been stumping at the early state event for decades, some

with better events than others.  The Iowa State Fair`s political

winners and losers is Thing Two in 60 seconds.




HAYES:  The Iowa State Fair is a crucial stop for presidential candidates. 

It`s been described as sort of stations of the cross.  They give a soapbox

speech, eat some of the fried foods, interact with regular folks, maybe get

on a ride or two.  And there are rules, most importantly, whatever you do,

for the love of god, do not get photographed eating a corn dog.


Of course, some politicians execute the delicate Iowa State Fair visit

better than others.  Mitt Romney liked to flip pork chops on his visit to

the fair, infamously dropping one on the ground, and delivering this

memorable line on the soapbox.





friend.  We can raise taxes – of course they are.  Everything corporations

earn ultimately goes to people.




HAYES:  Fred Thompson showed up in dress loafers and got around by

chauffeured golf cart which didn`t go around so well.


Barack Obama warmed hearts with an adorable bumper car ride with his

daughter Sasha.


Donald Trump offered rides in his helicopter, not enough to beat Ted Cruz

in the Iowa caucuses.  Just last year John Delaney proved he was brave

enough to get on the giant slide, although I`m not sure how much he enjoyed



This year, more than 20 candidates are scheduled to make an appearance and

deliver a speech at the Des Moines Register political soapbox.  Here`s

hoping they learned from others` mistakes, but I`m not holding my breath.




JOE BIDEN, 2020 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  We choose unity over division.  We

choose signs over fiction. We choose truth over facts.






HAYES:  Related companies is a real estate firm that also invests in

fitness and restaurant brands, among them SoleCycle and Equinox.  If you

Google Related Companies our brands and try to click on the first hit, you

get this message: “you`re not authorized to access this page.”


And this hasn`t always been the case.  It appears to be the result of a

report earlier this week that billionaire developer Steven Ross, the guy

who owns Related, along with the NFL`s Miami Dolphins, will host a

fundraiser for Donald Trump tomorrow in the Hamptons where the president

himself is scheduled to appear and where tickets run as high as $250,000.


Also scheduled to make an appearance at one of two back-to-back Hampton

fundraisers this weekend, Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross, Treasury

Secretary Steve Mnuchin, Senior Adviser

Jared Kushner, RNC Chairwoman Rhonna McDaniels, and Senator Lindsey Graham.


And people got wind that Ross was hosting this extravagant fundraiser after

a mass murder in El Paso by a shooter whose manifesto echoed Trump`s

language when he talked about Hispanic invasion, the administration

continues to put brown people in cages at the border, and as they watched

the president`s supporters chant “send her back” to a U.S. congresswoman

born in Somalia, well, it turned out people were not so happy that the

owner of their local gym or the place they like to cycle was supporting

these kind of things.


Ross has since tried to deflect  some of the criticism.  In a statement he

said, quote, “I have

known Donald Trump for 40 years.  And while we agree on some issues, we

strongly disagree on

many others.  I have been, and will continue to be, an outspoken champion

of racial equality.”  Who knows, maybe Ross does have an interest in racial

equality.  You can`t get your tax cuts and

deregulation and all the other giveaways that benefit a billionaire like

Ross and not be tainted by the disgusting, at times violent white

nationalism, that Trump is fomenting.


He can`t have it both ways.  We`ll talk about corporate America`s devil`s

bargain after this.




HAYES:  Billionaire developer Steven Ross is not the only rich donor

backing Donald Trump`s re-election.  The Washington Post points out the

Trump victory fund-raising committee has raised more than $67 million so

far for the president`s re-election in the RNC.  Among the biggest donors

so far, Marvel Entertainment Chairman Isaac Perlmutter and his wife, Laura;

Texas oil executive Jeffrey Hildebrand and his philanthropist wife Melinda;

Texas billionaire Darwin Deason; and Wisconsin billionaire Diane Hendricks.


Joining me to talk about the bargain corporate America is making with

Trump, I`m joined by Paola Ramos, host of Vice`s Latin-X, former 2016

Clinton campaign deputy director of Hispanic media; and Josh Marshal,

editor and publisher of Talking Points Memo; and Elie Mystal, executive

editor of Above the Law and a contributor to The Nation.


I thought the Steven Ross statement was so – such a perfect microcosm of

the whole way the Republican coalition in the era of Trump stays to




and that`s all I want and I don`t care about the rest.


Look, I`m surprised – Trump is a bigoted demagogue, and we all kind of

know that.  These people should be ashamed of supporting him, right, like

at this point you should basically only be able to contribute to the Trump

campaign with BitCoin, right?  But Equinox man is out there holding an Eyes

Wide Shut party and he`s surprised that people are getting up in his grill.


We understand, we know that there is no constitutional way to put pressure

on these people`s  exercise of their money as speech, but there`s darn sure

social pressure that we have barely tried.  And it`s time for us to start

trying at least.


HAYES:  Yeah, I think the civil society part of it is fascinating.


PAOLA RAMOS, HOST, VICE`S LATIN-X:  Exactly.  And I`m not surprised at all

at his response.  What I am loving is the backlash, right, because I think

finally it`s crystallizing in everyone`s minds that we all have, every

single one of us, has a moral responsibility to do something, right.  You

can be someone who goes to SoulCycle and you can be an activist, but that

is exactly what the resistance envisioned, right, which is that activism

can look many different ways.  this is part of that.


HAYES:  Right.  So, I just want to make – the conservative argument about

all of this, right, is that you`re sliding down some dystopian like

slippery slope where like it`s not just about Trump but

it`s going to be about all Republicans or all conservatives or anyone with

any politics – like everyone

is going to use every consumer decision.  Cities have passed these laws,

right, in the case of Chick-fil-a because of the founder`s belief or

opposition to gay marriage, that like you`re going to end up in a position

where everything gets politicized.



thing is we know, according to the Supreme Court, and it`s a rule that we

operate under now, that campaign contributions are speech.  Speech is

public.  In the nature of things, speech is public.


So – and what you see, not so much this particular controversy, but

there`s a big move on the right that campaign contributions should be



HAYES:  Yes.


MARSHALL:  …so this doesn`t happen.


HAYES:  Well, they`ve already – there is already a huge amount of dark

money thanks to Citizen`s United.


MARSHALL:  Right, but even beyond dark money, even the official money,

should be – you know – and what you see is a growing desire that money

should have untrammeled rights to enter into politics as speech and also

have confidentiality, which breaks the whole speech model, really.


MYSTAL:  They don`t want free speech, they consequenceless speech, and that

is what we

cannot continue to allow them have, and that is why we need to take – and

so when you`re talking about the slippery slope, like, the way you avoid

the slippery slope is don`t support people who cage

children.  Don`t support people who are racist bigots.  Like it`s not that

actual – what we`re asking for is not actually all that much. 


And so I don`t really worry about the slippery slope, because I feel like

if we – if we have collective action, collective social pressure on our

friends and families and uncles and whatever to stop supporting this

ridiculousness, that we will actually get somewhere.


HAYES:  There`s also – the other worry, right, so you talked about wanting

to make the donors

anonymous.  It was very interesting, so when Congressman Joaquin Castro,

right, he tweeted out some donors, maxed out donors of Donald Trump that

were in San Antonio where he, part of his district.  And people flew off

the handle that he was essentially kind of engendering some threats towards


he was painting a target on his back.  What do you think of that?


RAMOS:  I saw nothing wrong with that.  Like what is wrong – as you



HAYES:  It is public information, just to be clear.


RAMOS:  Exactly, it`s public.  But what is wrong with exposing the truth,

what is wrong with exposing the people that are fueling his agenda, right? 

So my question is to the donors, like, what are you so ashamed of?  Why can

you not be proud?  Why can you not be okay with associating yourself with a

white supremacist?  Be okay with that.


MARSHALL:  The key is like…


HAYES:  Well, the worry also, I should just say, I think the worry is

danger.  And I had a moment there – I think partly because we`re just up

against like two mass shootings, where there was part of me like I do worry

about – I worry about political violence in America and I would like to



MARSHALL:  If Castro would have asked me, like, should I do this?  I would

have said, I`m not sure that`s the greatest idea, but I don`t see it`s a

big problem.


And the bigger thing is in that case relatively small donors, it`s not this

guy who`s probably bundling millions of dollars or something like that. 


But you do not have to give to political campaigns.  It is speech, it is an

inherently a public thing.  And the reality is, look, we live in a

polarized time.  We live in a time where a lot of, you know, bad things are

going on.  So I think we all have to be kind of collectively cautious about

kind of focusing in on one person and what some crazy person might do. 


But the reality is, I haven`t seen any case of anybody who was targeted in

anyway because they  gave money, maybe someone tweeted at them –yeah,

exactly – it just has not happened.  And I don`t think there`s really, you

know, the kind of people who gave – you know, maxed out only takes, what,

depending on if it`s a couple or individual, a few thousand dollars.  No

one really cares.  No one is going to be thinking about them a week from



MYSTAL:  People of color…


MARSHALL:  It`s public.


MYSTAL:  People of color are already targets under this administration.  I

have no problem with shining the light back on the donors who fund this

kind of racialized hate.


I mean I go further, I want pitchforks and torches outside this man`s house

in the Hamptons.  I`ve been to the Hamptons, it`s very nice.  There`s no

reason it has to be.  There`s no reason he should be  able to have a nice

little party.  Right, no.  There is no reason why people shouldn`t be able

to be outside of his house and making their voices peacefully understood

that they do not…


HAYES:  Totally.


MYSTAL:  …that reject (inaudible).


HAYES:  There have been peaceful protests outside Mitch McConnell`s house. 

And I imagine

there will be peaceful protests outside this which is again it`s all

speech, right, peaceful protests, the right to assembly under the first

amendment, like that is the way that – because your point here, right, is

how does civil society deal with what we`re seeing, right?  How does civil

society deal with the most powerful person in the world like painting a

target on people`s back and inveighing against the congress people and

saying it`s an invasion, send them back.


Like, the peaceful means by which civil society responds is through more

speech and more protected activity and pressure.


MARSHALL:  And also, to me, I think there is a difference between, again,

some pretty well-off person in San Antonio who maybe donates $5,000, to

someone like this, who I`m sure in aggregate, when you figure in bundling

and third-party groups, is probably getting hundreds of thousands or even

millions of dollars.  That is giving him power way beyond anything we have. 


And again, what his argument is sort of, like, oh, you know, I supported

Hitler, but it was just for the cars and the Autobahn, man.  The other

stuff, that wasn`t my thing.  It`s ridiculous.  You can`t like pick and

choose like that.


HAYES:  It`s also someone whose brands, right – like SoulCycle and

Equinox, are located in the kinds of places like multiracial,

multicultural, urbanized environments that the president has made a target

out of in toto (ph).  He said like all of those places are terrible.


RAMOS:  Absolutely.  And I just – to me the moral of everything is that it

makes us all rethink at whose expense are we enjoying all these things,

right?  Like, this is enough.


So, again, I`m just – I will no longer go to SoulCycle, that is all that I

have to say.  I`ve enjoyed it, and today I have…


HAYES:  Well, there you go, minus one for SoulCycle.


MYSTAL:  My stance against Chick-fil-A is more perm to me than SoulCycle…


HAYES:  Paola Ramos, Josh Marshall, and Elie Mystal, thanks for joining us. 

That is ALL IN this evening.  “THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW” starts right now.







Copyright 2019 ASC Services II Media, LLC.  All materials herein are

protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced,

distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the

prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter

or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the