Mueller warns about future attacks. TRANSCRIPT: 7/25/19, All In w/ Chris Hayes.

Chris Murphy, Ted Lieu, Walter Dillenger, Harry Siegel, Tom Steyer, Baher Azmy

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  And that`s HARDBALL for now.  Thanks for being

with us.  “ALL IN” with Chris Hayes starts right now.






REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA):  We should hold our elected officials to a

standard higher than mere avoidance of criminality, shouldn`t we?




HAYES:  In the wake of the Mueller hearing, tonight, brand new reason to

question whether the president is acting in America`s best interests.


SCHIFF:  The difficulty with this, of course, is we are all left to wonder

whether the President is representing us or his financial interests.


HAYES:  Plus, what we`re learning about the jailhouse injuries of convicted

sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, the court decision that blocked the

President`s radical makeover of the American immigration system, the

remarkable uprising that led to the resignation of Puerto Rico`s governor,

and 2020 candidate Tom Steyer on his new climate plan on the push for

impeachment when ALL IN starts right now.




HAYES:  Good evening from New York on Chris Hayes.  It was just yesterday

that former Special Counsel Robert Mueller in what was likely his last

message to Congress warned yet again above the specter of Russian

interference in our next election.




MUELLER:  Over the course of my career, I`ve seen a number of challenges to

our democracy.  The Russian government`s efforts to interfere in our

election is among the most serious.  It was not a hoax.  The indictments we

returned against the Russians two different ones were substantial and in

their scope using – scope were again – I and I think one of the – we

have underplayed to a certain extent in that aspect of our investigation

that has and would have long-term damage to the United States that we need

to move quickly to address.




HAYES:  Despite that warning, only hours later, Senate Majority Leader

Mitch McConnell, Republican, blocked not one but two election security

measures saying that Democrats were just trying to give themselves a

political advantage which itself is interesting.  The Democrats are trying

to give themselves a political advantage by preventing foreign actors from

penetrating the election.


Now today, the Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee, Republican-

led, just dropped the first volume of its findings on Russia`s 2016

election interference.  And I got to say, the report is heavily redacted

which makes it a little hard to read, but it contains some really shocking,

kind of heart-stopping revelations.


Including this, the Russians targeted voting systems in all 50 states,

every single one.  But perhaps the most chilling line is about Russia`s

access to Illinois`s election system.  “Russian cyber actors were in a

position to delete or change voter data.”


Now, we`ve had press reports indicating that was true but this is the

official Senate Intelligence Committee run by a Republican saying the

Russians were in a U.S. voter system in one of the largest states and could

change data.  That`s the nightmare scenario.  That`s it.  It already

happened.  There`s no evidence they changed vote tallies but think for a

second of the specter of that right now.


Joining me now Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut.  He`s a

member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.  Am I – am I freaking

out unnecessarily or is this an extremely big deal?


SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT):  Yes, freak out, Chris, and help the American

public realize how disastrous this could be if we don`t respond in the way

that we should.  The idea that the Russians had the ability to go in and

delete people`s names to mess around with voter files is absolutely



And what we know is that they have developed new capabilities since 2016

such that they are clearly in a position to try to do this again.  And as

you mentioned, what is I think most disturbing is that Republicans seem to

recognize the electoral advantage that comes to them in a Russian

government that may once again try to elect Donald Trump and other

Republicans and seem to be admitting that on the floor of the Senate

blocking our attempts to try to make sure that Russia doesn`t get into

these systems.


Now, we are in a better position than we were in 2016.  There`s no doubt

there`s a lot of good civil servants working in this administration who are

trying to keep the Russians out.  But when they don`t have the resources to

do the job because McConnell is blocking it in the Senate, it leaves us



HAYES:  Here`s one of the sort of parts of the nightmare scenario and

responding to the idea that we actually have hardened and we have improved. 

You know, if I – if I think about an election that comes down to one

state, say Wisconsin by a thousand vote margin, and there`s an automatic

recount and we`re in a post-election day battle over legal things, and then

it just the Russians just leaked like oh by the way, we were in that



Now, it might be true, it might be not, but all of a sudden there`s like an

irresolvable legitimacy black hole that we`ve all been sucked into.


MURPHY:  Well, and remember, that is the Russian endgame, right?


HAYES:  Yes.


MURPHY:  The Russian endgame is to destroy legitimacy in democracies.  And

you do that you know, in a number of different ways most often not by just

electing candidates that favor your positions, but by making everyone

believe that the whole system is corrupt, rigged, unworkable.


And so of course, just the hint of impropriety, the idea that the results

that are shown on election night are not actually the right results, seek

to get to Russia`s end.


HAYES:  I want to talk about something the White House did very quietly

yesterday as Robert Mueller was testifying which was they issued a veto. 

They vetoed bipartisan legislation in both houses to block an arms sale the

neighborhood of a billion dollars to both the Saudis and the UAE largely

for the Saudis to continue prosecuting a war against Yemen that has

resulted in what many call the worst humanitarian disaster in the world,

tens of thousands dead.  What is the White House doing?


MURPHY:  So it`s a great question.  I think there`s two motivations for

this bizarre off the rails Trump policy towards Saudi Arabia in which as

the Saudi conduct gets more outrageous, as they lock up more Americans, as

they perpetuate a war in Yemen that is leading to the world`s worst cholera

outbreak in recorded history, Trump rewards them instead of resetting the



OK, so here`s the two explanations one.  Well, he might just want to do

everything opposite of what Obama did.  And because Obama sort of checked

the Saudis and did a deal with the Iranians, he`s just getting as close to

the Saudis as he can.


But then, of course, there`s the other explanation which is that we have

clear financial connections into the Trump family, clear financial

connections into Jared Kushner that may easily explain why he is seeking to

make the Trump family which is right now in the White House as close as

possible to the Saudi family.


HAYES:  He literally said at one point in the campaign trail, I like the

Saudis.  Was I supposed to not like them?  They buy lots of toys from me. 

They buy lots of apartments.  They spend lots of money.


And that you know, relates to what`s happening on the floor of the Senate

with Mitch McConnell blocking election security in the testimony yesterday

from Robert Mueller which is do you and can anyone have any confidence the

president makes decisions for the good of the nation or for his own narrow

financial interest particularly as regards the nation`s security,

cybersecurity, election integrity, or foreign policy?


MURPHY:  Of course, we can`t.  We can`t because we`ve never gotten a full

picture of the president`s finances.  But of course, you don`t really need

to because as you mentioned when it comes to Russian investment and Saudi

investment he`s been pretty out in the open about how important that was to

the Trump family.


And given the fact that he is currently as we speak continuing to make

money off of Trump properties, it, of course, is important to him in real-

time.  It used to be Chris that we as a body could come together when we

thought that an administration`s policy had gone too far afield and that we

could stand up to a president override a veto.


We can`t do that with this Republican Congress.  We got a few Republicans

to support us in these arms sales resolutions today in the Foreign

Relations Committee.  We passed another bill cutting off arms sales for a

year, but there aren`t enough to actually stand up to the veto and the

compromise nature of American foreign policy today possibly explained,

likely explained by the President`s financial intertwinement with many of

our adversaries.  It`s just absolutely bone-chilling.


HAYES:  I will note that the Impeachment Clause in the U.S. Constitution

which everyone quotes as high crimes and misdemeanors includes treason,

bribery, and high crimes and misdemeanors.  Just a little note about our

Constitution.  Senator Chris Murphy, thank you very much.


MURPHY:  Thanks.


HAYES:  Joining me now Democratic Congressman Ted Lieu of California, a

member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, questioned Robert Mueller

yesterday as a member of the House Judiciary Committee.  And first I want

to get your response to the work product just issued by your colleagues

over in the Senate, and I want to read you a portion of the report and get

your response.


Former special assistant to the president and cybersecurity coordinator

Michael Daniel told the committee that by late August 2016 he had already

personally concluded the Russians had attempted to include in all 50 states

based on the extent of the activity and the apparent randomness of the

attempts.  Intelligence developed later in 2018 bolstered Mr. Daniels

assessment all 50 states were targeted.


REP. TED LIEU (D-CA):  Thank you, Chris, for your question.  I`m a

recovering computer science major and I`ve worked on cybersecurity issues

since I`ve come to Congress.  It is not surprising that our cybersecurity

is very low, very bad, and that these election systems were infiltrated by

the Russians.


And as you said earlier, it is completely chilling that the Russians were

in a position to delete voter data from the Illinois voter database,


HAYES:  Yes.  I mean, that – we should be clear that deleting data – you

don`t have to change any vote tallies.  If you have the data and you know

say, a precinct or an area is predominantly African-American, you delete

them off the rolls, you effectively will tip the scales of an election.


LIEU:  That`s absolutely correct.  Which is why it`s so disappointing that

Mitch McConnell refuses to take up the bills that the House of

Representatives has passed to the U.S. Senate to improve election security.


I think Mitch McConnell gave the game away when he said that these bills

would give the Democrats an advantage.  Well, yes, because Democrats won

free and fair elections where you don`t have a foreign power influencing

the outcome.


And so I think Senator McConnell should be ashamed for what he`s doing. 

One of these bills says we should have these voting machines made in the

United States.  I mean, who could be against that?


HAYES:  You ask questions to Robert Mueller yesterday in your role on the

House Judiciary Committee which have the morning hearing.  I want to ask

you about an interesting development.  So I`ve been seeing lots of analysis

that says well, the windows closing on impeachment.


And of course House leadership including Nancy Pelosi came out and said,

well, we`re going to continue to fight things in the court and Adam Schiff

said today well, if we get to a point where he disobeys a court order then

I think impeachment would be appropriate.


The same time I think four more House Democratic members including the

vice-chair of the Democratic caucus which is the highest-ranking member of

leadership so far to do so came out in favor of impeachment inquiry.  What

do you think the reaction of your caucus is to yesterday?


LIEU:  So the Democratic caucus is diverse and Speaker Pelosi is going to

make a decision in consultation with our caucus.  Whatever decision she

makes I`m going to respect it.  But what the hearings show yesterday is

that the Russians attacked us in a systematic and sweeping manner in 2016,

that the Trump campaign embraced it, welcomed it and gave them internal

polling data, and then the president committed multiple acts of obstruction

Justice which are felonies to try to stop that investigation.


Those are the facts and what the American people and other members of

Congress choose to do with those facts we`ll know in the next few weeks.


HAYES:  You`re going to go home your districts.  What`s – I`m so curious

about the timing here.  So Mueller testifies obviously was supposed to be a

week earlier, that it was negotiated back to yesterday. 


Then there`s – you guys past the big spending bill for two years with 219

Democratic votes today which means you didn`t even need any Republicans who

got to vote no and whine about big spending even though obviously they`re

doing it.  What is this recess going to be like for you and what do you

expect to hear from constituents?


LIEU:  This is an opportunity for each member to go back to their

districts.  All of our districts are unique.  They can hear from their

constituents.  And then when we come back in September, we`ll see what the

American people think and what our caucus thinks about an impeachment



I do note that it`s actually five additional members of the Democratic

Caucus have come out in support of an impeachment inquiry since yesterday.


HAYES:  A live fact check from Congressman Ted Lieu for your humble host

here.  Thank you very much.  I appreciate that.


LIEU:  Thank you, Chris.


HAYES:  Joining me now are Mimi Rocah former Assistant U.S. Attorney for

Southern District New York now an MSNBC Legal Analyst and Walter Dellinger

former Acting Solicitor General, Assistant Attorney General, and Head of

the Office of Legal Counsel.


I want to play something that Adam Schiff said in his sort of closing

remarks yesterday which I thought was really interesting where he`s

basically saying look, these are the things in the four corners your

report.  You can talk about – you can`t talk about these other things

which is why we have to investigate them.


This is one thing he said which I think relates back to my conversation

with Chris Murphy and more broadly.  Take a listen.




SCHIFF:  We did not bother to ask whether financial inducements from any

Gulf nations were influencing U.S. policy since it is the outside the four

corners of your report and so we must find out.




HAYES:  And this relates also, Mimi, to the idea of a sort of

counterintelligence ongoing investigation by the FBI about compromise which

gets us to me this sort of fundamental question at the heart of all of this

does.  The president have an improper and corrupted dependence on entities

hostile to the United States?


MIMI ROCAH, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST:  And we absolutely do not know the answer

to that.  I mean, I think a lot of us have ideas based on his behavior,

right?  I mean, we`re looking at what he does on an everyday basis with

Saudi Arabia, Russia, the pandering, the you know, excusing, the passing of

certain legislation, but –


HAYES:  Two of these three vetoes on – narrowly on a Saudi issue to

override bipartisan legislation.


ROCAH:  Exactly.  But what Schiff made clear in that excellent summation

just really what it was, right?  He`s looking right at Mueller but he was

talking to us.  He was saying to the American people, he was saying we

don`t know the answers to these vital questions of whether or not our

president is compromised because of money, right.  That`s what it all comes

down to.


And that`s why Trump is still hiding his taxes, is still not disclosing you

know, making full financial disclosures.


HAYES:  And fighting tooth and nail in courts including tooth and nail with

preposterous legal theories.


ROCAH:  Right.  And it`s really one of the best arguments for impeachment

proceedings to begin because Robert Mueller made perfectly clear, he didn`t

go to those corners.  That was not his purview, his word, and so somebody

else needs to.


HAYES:  You know, Walter, I was mentioning the Senator Chris Murphy the

clause in the Constitution about impeachment which people say high crimes

and misdemeanors, but it`s actually it`s three things.  It`s treason,

bribery, and high crimes and misdemeanors.


And when you combine that with the Emoluments Clause, it seems to me that

it was – it was a sort of almost obsession of the Founders the idea of a

president who was beholden in some corrupt dependent way which seems to me

the core of this whole thing even larger than the narrow question of




right.  I taught the debates of the Constitutional Convention and there was

a recurring fear that we would be the plaything of European politics, that

there would be a you know, a French party and a British party and that`s

reflected in a number of clauses and particularly concerned of a foreign



And I think when you mentioned the Impeachment Clause, it`s very relevant

to tonight`s breaking news about the Senate Intelligence Committee report

about the degree of Russian – of Russian interference because it`s

important to know that not all crimes are impeachable offenses but nor is

it the case that an impeachable offense needs to be –


HAYES:  Correct.


DELLINGER:  – a technical violation of the federal criminal code.  And the

perfect example would be a president who fails – consciously fails to

defend the United States against a foreign military intelligence attack. 

There`s nothing of the federal criminal code, no one ever thought to make

that a crime, but surely it would be an impeachable offense.


HAYES:  There`s also this awful kind of deep legitimacy spectrum that now

hangs over this which I you know, talk to Chris Murphy about, and it`s a

thought experiment obsessed with because it doesn`t seem to me that remote

frankly.  The odds of a very closely contested 2020 race seem very



ROCAH:  Almost every election.


HAYES:  Yes, perhaps very –


DELLINGER:  No, this is – this is – you know, the Russians may know –

they knew they had business dealings with Trump that were kept secret from

the public so they already had their hooks in him of information they

thought would be private.


They also have a deep-seated fear going back to 2014 with uprisings in

Ukraine worried about democracy.  You know, why can`t we have democracy in

Russia?  And they went to say, look how badly democracy is working in the

U.K. and in the U.S.


And so they have – the greatest wish would be a presidential election

whose legitimacy was honestly endowed and contested by the parties.  They

would say look, you`re better off with Vladimir taking care of everybody. 

This democracy is messy.  So I – you know I –


HAYES:  It`s a very good point.  And Mimi, as someone who you know, as a

lawyer, I mean, just imagining a scenario in which you are attempting to

resolve – I mean, the way that we resolve contest elections is through the

courts, and the last time that happened was 2000 in a way that a lot of

people are very angry at and I think the Bush v Gore decision is

hilariously terrible.


But imagine that with the specter or information that actually the vote

totals themselves or the system itself have been compromised.


ROCAH:  Right.  I mean, at least there we had you know, something to count,

you know, however badly it was counted.


HAYES:  With fights over the intention the chads and all that stuff.


ROCAH:  Yes, and all that.  But if you also have on top of that a layer of

Russia says they were in there and they you know – and I mean, look, it`s

ridiculous, it`s frightening, it`s terrifying and it is – it is not

disconnected from the obstruction.  I just want to throw that in.


HAYES:  Yes, correct.


ROCAH:  Because – and I thought Mueller did make this point well,

certainly in the report and even yesterday a little bit that Trump didn`t

need to know or think that he committed a crime.  But he knew the Russians

had interfered.  I mean, that is clear even though he won`t admit it now. 

And that was part of what he didn`t want to come out for this reason –


HAYES:  That was what he was covering up.  Yes.


ROCAH:  – because of the legitimacy reasons so even he is afraid of it. 

And you know, Republicans may think it`s only going to work for their

benefit and against the Democrats and that is – they can`t count on that.


HAYES:  That is a bad bet.  Walter Dellinger and Mimi Rocah, thank you very

much both you for your time tonight.


DELLINGER:  You`re welcome.


HAYES:  Coming up, the ongoing mystery of what happened to Jeffrey Epstein

24 hours after we heard he was reportedly found injured in his jail cell. 

We will get the latest next.




HAYES:  Almost 24 hours after the news broke that Jeffrey Epstein was found

injured in his cell, it is still entirely unclear what the heck happened. 

Did he attempt to injure himself, perhaps try to kill himself?  Is he

faking something in order to try to get transferred or have his bail

decision revisited or was he attacked?


Epstein faces two charges of sex trafficking and sex trafficking conspiracy

after the feds arrested him and raided his Manhattan home a few weeks ago. 

He was denied bail last Thursday and is currently in the same Federal

Detention Facility that held El Chapo.


For more on what we know and don`t know about the strange turn of events,

I`m joined by Harry Siegel who has been reporting on the case closely, a

Senior Editor of The Daily Beast.  All right, so what do we know about what

happened last night?



Jeffrey Epstein had marks on his neck.  NBC was the – was the first to

report this.  They said initially that this appeared to be suicide as they

continued reporting and others dug in.


It looks like no one at MCC is really sure.  This could have been a suicide

attempt, it could have been a feeble attempt to convey a suicide.  He

doesn`t seem to have been seriously harmed in the course of this and he`s

still being held in MCC.  He wasn`t moved to a hospital.  Or this could

have been the guy he was rooming with which is so far in a special security

setting, but nonetheless Nicholas Tartaglione who is a very, very large

former police officer who murdered four people.


HAYES:  Accused of murdering four people.


SIEGEL:  Who allegedly murdered four people, thank you.  And look, Jeffrey

Epstein has been in prison before.  He was in pretend – I`m going to spend

12 hours a day in my office having massages prison.  He`s in – he`s in

real lockup now.


HAYES:  And if fact – I mean, MCC is a sort of notorious place.  Again, it

held El Chapo.  It`s where people are brought particularly when their

pending trial or in trial for big federal cases.  I mean, like you know,

people that are accused of being terrorist masterminds and things like

that.  It is surprising to me that we don`t have a full accounting of what

happened from this facility.


SIEGEL:  Well, Paul Manafort just left.  That wasn`t announced either.  We

called and asked and they said he`s back in Pennsylvania.  So look, they

keep stuff really quiet in there and some of that is necessary for

security, and then you wean on some of that because it`s hard to get

accounts to the outside.


In this heatwave, we just had in New York – I`m talking now about the

local lockups but the principles are very similar, there`s no air

conditioning.  We just found out there`s no maximum temperature, and

there`s no way for any of the inmates to get that information out and they

don`t get the leave if it`s 110 degrees inside their cells.  This is a

closed off-world.


HAYES:  Right.  So OK, so he wasn`t sent to a hospital which suggests that

whatever the injuries were, they weren`t sufficiently serious to put him in

a hospital.  He was initially in gen-pop and MCC and then they moved him to

some sort of security segregation.  But in that security segregation, he

was in the same cell as Mr. Tartaglione.


SIEGEL:  Right.  We think he was in nine south with Tartaglione.  And I

know that prior to that according to a source with knowledge that he was

briefly in a general population and trying to acclimate for how to survive

in a real prison and nervous about that.


And people (INAUDIBLE) who are accused of doing sexual things with children

are really looked down on there.  And when you`re that and a millionaire,

that`s a very – you know, you better give me money now or I`m going to

hurt you sort of combination.


HAYES:  I should just conclude on this which is there were of course

conspiracy theories erupting like wildfire in the wake of this news, like

someone`s trying to have him whacked.  You know, they want to keep him

quiet and things like that.  And then I can understand why people`s minds

might go there but we don`t have any evidence whatsoever that that`s the

case at this point at all.


SIEGEL:  To the contrary from everything that`s reported, he was not badly



HAYES:  Exactly, right.  In fact, he wasn`t hurt badly enough to go to a

hospital which would seem to knock down the idea that anyone tried to kill



SIEGEL:  Indeed.


HAYES:  Particularly if Mr. Tartaglione is actually the assailant which we

don`t know, but who seems like he is capable of putting a person in

hospital should he so wish.  Harry Siegel, thank you very much.


Coming up, President Trump stopped in his tracks as the courts thwart his

latest attempt to drastically and unilaterally change American immigration

policy.  That`s next.




HAYES:  Once again, the courts have stopped this White House from

unilaterally attempting to change policy this time with what would have

been a massive rewriting of U.S. asylum law.


A Trump appointed a judge in Washington, D.C. yesterday had initially

declined to halt the

new policy, but a federal judge in San Francisco later that same day issued

an injunction to stop the rule, at least for now.


Here with me now to explain what happened, Baher Azmy, the legal director

of the Center for Constitutional Rights, which which has part of that

California suit that issued the injunction.  Great to have you here.


So just explain to me, what was the administration trying to d?  And then

what is your argument  that it`s not legal?



the most draconian and dangerous attacks on our asylum system and asylum

seekers to date.  The administration last Monday  issued a hasty rule

without the required public comment period that would categorically deny

asylum to anyone on the southern border who happened to transit through a

third country, meaning everyone other than Mexicans, including individuals

– including unaccompanied minors and all of those individuals fleeing the

terrible humanitarian crisis in the northern triangle countries of

Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras.


HAYES:  So they would say if you are not Mexican, you`ve already gone to

some other country.  You should have applied for asylum there, ergo, we

won`t give you asylum here.


AZMY:  Right, we won`t give you a chance.  Go back to your home country,

including if your home country would subject you to horrible persecution or



And so the lawsuit – the Center for Constitutional Rights brought with the



HAYES:  Let me stop you for a second.  That`s a big change.  It`s a

complete change to the way that U.S. asylum policy, as written into statute

and interpreted by the executive has functioned for decades.


AZMY:  Yes.  Absolutely.  It`s like – it`s a de facto end to asylum on the

southern border, except for a small population of Mexicans and the very

principles of asylum.


And our argument was, you know, congress for 40 years has considered how to

deal with individuals who transit through third countries, and they come up

with two narrow exceptions.  One, if you are firmly resettled in a third

country, and by firmly that is you have status there.    You have the

indicia (ph) of safety, like housing or unemployment.  Maybe then you`re

not entitled to asylum.


HAYES:  So, if I`m Honduran and I go to Mexico and I stop in Mexico.  I put

down anchors in Mexico and I`m in a house and I have kids and I have a job,

maybe, I`m there four or five years.  I try to apply for asylum.  It`s OK

to say, look, that`s not how this works.


AZMY:  Precisely.  Because in that circumstance, we`ve determined you`re

already safe, because that`s the bottom line requirement.


HAYES:  That`s what the entire legal architecture is attempting to provide.


AZMY:  Right.  And the only other circumstances – what are called safe

third country agreements, emphasis on safe, we only have one such agreement

with Canada, that can only apply when the two countries have equally robust

asylum systems.  So in that situation, if someone fleeing persecution from

Egypt passes through Canada on his way to the United States, the United

States might be able to send him back to Canada, but not to Egypt.


And here the administration, without such an agreement, would send somebody

back to their  persecutors.


HAYES:  Now – so your argument is this is just not – this is outside the

power of the executives to unilaterally impose?  Is that what you`re



AZMY:  Exactly.  It contradicts 40 years of congressional law.


HAYES:  That if congress wants to make this change, pass it in both houses

and president sign it, then that would be the new asylum law.


AZMY:  Right.


HAYES:  But he can`t just do it by himself.


AZMY:  He can`t do it overnight.  He can`t overturn our asylum laws, which

are itself based on 80 years of international human rights law by fiat and

without public comment.


And in addition as the Judge Tygar (ph) found, whatever evidence that the

administration cobbled together in support of the rule actually

contradicted the rule because all of the evidence suggested that Mexico is

not a place that could handle the refugee crisis.  It`s dangerous there. 

And they can`t manage this asylum process.


So in the sort of hallmark term of this administration, the law is deemed

arbitrary and capricious.


HAYES:  It is remarkable how much they have done – the Census decision,

which they were found by the Supreme Court and John Roberts, to violate the

APA, that essentially does not meet the lowest bar to uphold any legal –

which is arbitrary and capricious.  There is no rationale.  You cannot

defend it.


AZMY:  Right, you`ve totally made it up.  It`s contradicted by all the



HAYES:  And the courts just say you can`t do that.


AZMY:  Right.


And, you know, I think one piece here, you talked about what a radical

departure this is.  I think what`s important to know is that I think

cruelty is part of the point, cruelty and degradation and projecting

muscularly that you are not entitled to rights this country is bound to

respect.  And more fundamentally, I think a deep rejection of the entire

post-World War II international human rights consensus.


HAYES:  Baher Azmy, thank you so much for your time for explaining that so

well.  I appreciate it.


AZMY:  My pleasure.


HAYES:  Up next, welcome to the new normal: record breaking temperatures

across Europe.  It`s still only July.  I`ll talk to a 2020 candidate who

just proposed a new solution to the climate crisis next.




HAYES:  Here is the state of our cooking world, it`s 108 degrees in Paris

today – 108.7, to be precise, the hottest day ever recorded in Paris,

France.  Germany`s average national temperature today was 104 degrees,

that`s a record.  The northern German town of Lingen hit 109 degrees, the

hottest temperature ever recorded anywhere in Germany.


Netherlands today set a national record of 105.  Belgium reached 104, the

hottest day going back to 1833. 


Today it reached 100.6 degrees in Cambridge, England, making it the second

hottest day anywhere in the UK.  I could go on, but you get the point.


The massive heat dome crossing over Europe is causing temperatures that

have never been seen on the continent since global record-keeping began

about 135 years ago.


Just for a second, think of what, say, summer in Tucson, Arizona or Naples,

Florida or Austin, Texas is going to be like in 2040 if we keep going this



Also today, another Democratic candidate released an ambitious climate

plan.  Yesterday, Kirsten Gillibrand released her plan, which make fossil

fuel companies financially accountable.  Today, the newest entrant into the

field, billionaire hedge fund manager Tom Steyer released his plan.  And he

joins me now.


Tom, this is something that you worked on in the past.  What is the main

thrust of the plan?  Do you have hard caps for phasing out and getting to

net zero emissions by 2045?


TOM STEYER, 2020 P RESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  We do.  But Chris, I think the


change in my plan is that it`s an attempt to turn the page on the national

climate conversation from plans and conversation to concrete action day



My plan includes declaring a state of emergency and using the emergency

powers of the president from the first day that I`m in office to make sure

that, in fact, we deal with this in real-time.


HAYES:  Does this mean like emergency in the way in which the president is

currently attempting to use an emergency declaration to reappropriate funds

for the wall?


STEYER:  It is some of the same powers, Chris, but what we`re talking about

here is a threat  to the safety and health of every American.  And the time

for us to be just talking, just putting out plans,

trying to decide what to do has to end. 


This is a crisis.  It is a state of emergency.  And we have to deal with it

that way.


HAYES:  OK.  But you`re still going to be – if you were the president of

the United States, emergency powers notwithstanding, you`ll still running -

- you`re still dealing with a democracy.  You`re still dealing with a two-

party system in the United States senate.  There will be opposition, right. 

I mean, part of the issue for climate legislation has been that one party

is just dead set in killing it.


STEYER:  You`re right, Chris.  But in this case, I`m going to give congress

100 days to pass a green new deal, and then I`m going to use the emergency

powers of the presidency to deal with it, to set new standards in terms of

electricity and transportation and building codes, and to redirect money to

my climate plan to make sure that we protect the safety and health of every



The time for us to be doing nothing except talk has to end.  This is an

emergency.  I`m going to treat it that way, and I`m going make sure that we

take care of Americans.


HAYES:  So, I haven`t gotten a chance to talk to you on this program since

you declared that you were running for president.  We`ve talked before. 

You were running ads for a long period of time about the need to impeach

the president of the United States.  And when those ads were running, there

were a bunch of people who said the following: “this is a transparently

cynical attempt to build a list up for Tom Steyer to then run for



And then you announced you are not running for president.  And people said,

oh, I guess he really wanted to – you know, he was actually just trying to

impeach the president.  And then you decided you are running for president. 

And I have to ask you, there are people who have viewed the actions you`ve

taken, the money you`ve spent, as centrally a kind of bait and switch to

create the conditions you can run for president.


STEYER:  Well, actually, Chris, if you go back to October of 2017 when I

said this president should be impeached and started to collect signatures

to empower the people of the United States to have their voice be heard, it

turns out that what those 8 million people and I were saying is true, that

everything that we said was unheard of at that point.  People did in fact

question why we were doing it.  But it turns out we were telling the truth,

that it was an important truth, that this president is the most corrupt in



We just watched Mr. Mueller in a hearing confirm that he has committed high

crimes and  misdemeanors.  And in fact, I`ve been calling for Speaker

Pelosi to cancel the 44-day congressional vacation and use that time to

have full public hearings to have the American people see how corrupt  this



HAYES:  All right.  Tom Steyer, who is now running for president, has a

climate plan today.  We will get you back on the program because there are

a lot more issues I want to talk about.  Is that a deal?


STEYER:  Absolutely, Chris.  I want to talk about them too.


HAYES:  Thanks a lot.


STEYER:  Before we break, a special announcement tonight, especially if you

think the subject of climate is not getting enough attention in this

election cycle.  On September 19 and 20, MSNBC in partnering with

Georgetown`s McCourt School of Public Policy and Our Daily Planet for a

2020 candidate climate forum.


I`ll be hosting, along with my colleague, Ali Velshi.  We`ll be asking each

individual presidential candidate, including Tom Steyer who you just aw,

and Kirsten Gillibrand and others, about their plans to fight climate

change   We will open the floor to questions from young voters across the

country.  The event will be streaming live on NBC News now, and we will

bring you the interviews here on All In in primetime over the two-day

event.  More details to come, so stay tuned for that.


Coming up, what it looks like when people gather together and declare their

leaders illegitimate.  Incredible scenes from Puerto Rico, next.










HAYES:  That is what it sounded like in San Juan yesterday when the

governor of Puerto Rico, Ricardo Rossello, resigned.  This after 12

straight days of protests as people came together and declared their leader

illegitimate and intolerable.  And they stuck around in an increasingly

remarkable fashion. 


First, two of his former administration officials were arrested by the FBI

on corruption charges.

And then nearly 900 pages of a group chat with the governor and members of

his inner circle leaked revealing sexist and homophobic and generally gross

language about everyone from public figures to his own constituents.


And this all happened in a commonwealth that has seen years of extreme

austerity, including budget cuts by a federally imposed board they can`t

elect, and then of course came Hurricane Maria in 2017, which was capped

off by Donald Trump tossing paper towels at a crowd of people whose lives

are devastated by the hurricane.


And their own governor, Ricardo Rossello, sitting beside Trump and

minimizing the death toll  saying that only 16 people died when the actual

number eventually rose to something more like 3,000.


It was all too much for the people of Puerto Rico.  People took to the

streets in crazy numbers day after day after day.  They pushed a major

social media campaign, a Ricky Renuncia (ph), or Ricky resign. 


But the governor seemed intent on digging in his heels.  It looked like he

thought it could all pass over, and that was until yesterday.  He finally

gave in and resigned.


There is a lesson here about what happens when people come together and

declare their leader illegitimate and intolerable.  There


is one person I wanted to talk about this situation in Puerto Rico, and

that is journalist Julio Ricardo Varela.  I sat with him this week for my

podcast, “Why is This Happening?” which will be out on Tuesday.  Look for

it wherever you get your podcasts.






TRUMP:  Washington is full of people who are only looking out for

themselves.  But you know this, you know it better than most, I didn`t come

to Washington for me.  I came to Washington for all of

you.  That I can tell you.




HAYES:  Well, that was what the president wanted you to believe was his

critique of the status

quo.  In actuality it was his game plan, his vision for what he has brought

to Washington, because by almost any conceivable standard, the Trump

administration is the most corrupt administration of recent memory.


A new four-part docuseries called American Swamp with MSNBC`s own Katy Tur,

Jacob Soboroff, looks at not only the many ways in which the president and

his aides are lining their own

pockets, but more broadly how money, particularly dark money is having a

perverse effect on our elections across the country.





sometimes are spending tens of millions of dollars but they have no bricks

and mortars.  These operate out of a P.O. Box.  Their money spikes in

election years and then drops off during non-election years.  These are the

trademark qualities of political committees.


JACOB SOBOROFF, MSNBC:  What is the difference between what you are

describing and money laundering?


KRUMHOLZ:  Not a whole heck of a lot.




HAYES:  Joining me now, the hosts of this new docuseries, MSNBC`s Jacob

Soboroff and Katy Tur.  It`s great to have you here.


KATY  TUR, MSNBC:  It`s wonderful to be back.


HAYES:  Congratulations on your child.


TUR:  Thank you.


HAYES:  So give me the kind of conceit of the show.  What were you trying

to get to the bottom of?  What was the story you were trying to tell?


TUR:  We wanted to get to the bottom of the swamp.  Donald Trump campaigned

on draining the swamp, but the swamp existed long before Donald Trump.  And

we wanted to understand how it  came to be and whether or not it actually

can be drained.


So the first episode here is about dark money and the corrupting influence

of money in our politics.  And what we do is we take a look at exactly what

dark money is.  And then we get out of Washington and we go to Arizona.  We

go to Montana.  We see a real life example of how dark money is just…


SOBOROFF:  Proliferating.


TUR:  Proliferating, but also I want to use a bad word, but I can`t use it. 

I`ve got mom brain.


HAYES:  Screwing up.


TUR:  Screwing the people of Arizona. 


HAYES:  Screwing the people of Arizona.


SOBOROFF:  Let me give you this example.


TUR:  Because they can`t use solar power.


SOBOROFF:  So, in Arizona, it is the sunniest state in the union.  I walk

out there for five minutes I get a sunburn in Arizona, a tiny fraction,

minuscule, of Arizonans have solar power on their homes, and that is

because of how much dark money has flooded the system there. 


The power that the public utility has put forward is natural gas.  And you

have to actually pay to have solar power on your house, basically pay a

tax, in order to put solar…


HAYES:  A solar tax.


SOBOROFF:  A solar tax to put solar power on the top of your house in the

sunniest state in the union.  And it`s absurd.  But all you have do is look

at where the money came from, and it comes from the Koch Brothers, Arizona

Public Utility, which is the big utility company there, and it`s basically

a no-brainer.


HAYES:  You know, the dark money aspect is fascinating because everyone I

think remembers Citizens United, but that did two things, right?


So the first thing it does, it opens up unlimited contributions that are

corporate.  But then very quickly people realized that corporations are

very malleable entity that you create all kinds of differences with.  And

what it opened up was not just unlimited corporations but unlimited

anonymous  corporations.


TUR:  Not it`s not just super PACs.  And you know all the donors to a super

PAC.  It`s 501(c)4s.


And you don`t know the donors to a 501(c)4.  So what you have is this one

group with anonymous donors who don`t have to put their names on anything

en masse, together, giving to a super PAC.  So, although you know who is

giving to a super PAC, you don`t know who is behind this one group.


HAYES:  It is like some P.O. box that`s like Arizonans for a Better Future. 

And someone is writing some checks.


TUR:  Exactly.  It`s some innocuous name.  Americans for a Better America. 

And you don`t know who they are.  And, so, what they`re doing in Montana,

and this is the light at the end of the tunnel, is that they have an act, a

disclose act, that says 90 days before an election, I don`t care who you

are or what you`re getting at, you have to say – you have to give your



SOBOROFF:  I had no idea.


HAYES:  That`s wild.


SOBOROFF:  I had no idea this existed.  If you go to Montana, it`s not only

that, they have

a part-time state legislature where you have a boilermaker and a

firefighter and a teacher that are sitting in the state house, $180 is the

maximum per person that you can gave to a candidate.  They don`t have just

obscene amounts of money that are pouring into the system.


And so when you look at what`s going on in Montana – the Supreme Court, by

the way, just upheld the system that they have there.  It makes you think,

why aren`t we doing this on a national level?


TUR:  But we can do it on a national level.  That is something that other

states can adopt.  It`s possible.


The thing about this series is that we`re taking really weedy subjects and

we`re making them interesting, we`re making them entertaining.  We have

known each other for 20 years.  We sit down and have conversations on a

bench in front of…


HAYES:  He looks a lot like your husband, by the way.


SOBOROFF:  People say it.


HAYES:  It`s true.


SOBOROFF:  He`s way better looking than I am.


HAYES:  He is, actually.  You`re both very good lucky, but Tony is like



TUR:  I had my baby with me the other as we were doing radio hits.  And my

baby cuddled up to Jacob.


SOBOROFF:  No, wait, I was congratulated on my new child when we were out

in Washington,  D.C.


Look, we have been friends for a long time.  I don`t think you have seen

anything like this on MSNBC before.


HAYES:  Yeah, 20 years ago, you were like, some day we`re going to do a

series on dark money.


SOBOROFF:  20 years ago – I will tell you, 20 years ago we were driving

around in my Prius in Southern California.  We still drive around in that

same Prius – it has 115,000 miles, and it smells

as bad now as it did back then.


TUR:  I can vouch for that.


HAYES:  And so do you bring the series to D.C. at a certain point, correct?


TUR:  We`re in D.C.  We`re also in Arizona and Montana.  The point of the

series, though, is even though these are wonky topics, if you don`t

understand how the system works, you can never hope to fix it.  If you

don`t understand how to build a watch, you can`t fix a watch.


So we`re going to try and give the American people, our viewers, all the

information they need to help fix our governmental system from the ground

up.  Frustration is not a Republican thing.  Frustration is nonpartisan. 

Americans are frustrated.  The majority of people in this country don`t

believe or don`t have faith that the government will do what is right. 

That should change.


SOBOROFF:  So many times when I talk to you, when we`ve talked, when we do

any of this reporting, when you are in the field people always say

Washington, D.C. doesn`t understand what it is  like to be me.  When I wake

up in the morning the issues that I care about are not the things that we

all love to talk to each other about on a day-to-day basis, even things

that I`m – like immigration crisis.  So passionate about.  It is just not

what people say it is what I care most about.  And we`re trying to figure

out what that gap is.  Why that exists.  And how, if we`re going to close

it, people can understand the system better in order to be more interested

in things that affect their daily lives.


HAYES:  And part of the things is that people perceive that big money

interests are – I mean, this was the thing that Donald Trump ran on,

right, that like big money interests…


TUR:  They perceive lawmakers are bought.


HAYES:  Right, that they`re bought – and they`re not wrong about that.


SOBOROFF:  Yes, yes, they`re right.


So we do this.  We do the election system.  The world`s most famous

democracy, America, has some of the worst voter turnout in the entire

world.  So we get into the election system.  We look at congressional

dysfunction.  And we look at the president`s corrupt business dealings.


HAYES:  I cannot wait to watch it.  Jacob Soboroff and Katy Tur, thank you

both for joining us.


Their four-part docuseries American Swamp premiers this Sunday 9:00 p.m.

right here on MSNBC.  Don`t miss it.


That is ALL IN for this evening.  “THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW” starts right








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