The real dangers of Trump’s racist rhetoric. TRANSCRIPT: 7/18/19, All In w/ Chris Hayes.

Linda Chavez, Joe Neguse, Jerry Nadler, Nick Akerman, Cynthia Alksne, Adam Serwer, Ruth Ben-Ghiat

STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC HOST:  And it probably wasn`t what he is offering up

this week.  That`s HARDBALL for now.  “ALL IN” with Chris Hayes starts

right now.






AMERICAN CROWD:  Send her back!  Send her back!  Send her back!


HAYES:  The nation reels from the ugliness stoked by the president.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  When your supporters last night were chanting send her

back, why didn`t you stop them?


HAYES:  Tonight, why the Republican Party cannot back away from the

situation they created.


REP. ILHAN OMAR (D-MN):  I believe he is fascist.


HAYES:  And Congressman Jerry Nadler on what Democrats plan to do about it. 

Plus –




HAYES:  New alarms about the non-hypothetical threats of violence stemming

from Trump rallies.


REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY):  It is about creating a volatile

environment in this country through violent rhetoric.


HAYES:  And what we`re learning today from court documents about Donald

Trump`s involvement in a criminal conspiracy that helped get him elected.



Mr. Trump.


HAYES:  When ALL IN starts right now.




HAYES:  Good evening from New York I`m Chris Hayes.  Well, we`ve all seen

the tape right.  We`ve all listened to the chants and we all know what this





TRUMP:  Omar has a history of launching vicious anti-Semitic speech.


AMERICAN CROWD:  Send her back!  Send her back!  Send her back!  Send her





HAYES:  Send her back.  The darkest, ugliest impulses that a political

movement can cultivate on full unapologetic display.  That`s what Donald

Trump has been cultivating all along.  What the Republican Party whether it

likes it or not now stands for.


Most of us I think across the ideological spectrum liberal and conservative

across lines of religion and belief feel viscerally a kind of moral

revulsion when we hear and see an angry mob braying send her back about a

fellow American.


But the reaction from Republicans today was basically a foregone

conclusion.  We knew at the very best it would be tepid, at the worst, well




UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Isn`t it racist though to say send her back?


SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC):  No, I don`t think it`s racist to say.  Was it

racist to say love it or leave it?  I don`t think a Somali refugee

embracing Trump would not have been asked to go back.


SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC):  Anytime you get into a crowd like that you`ve got

a lot of supporters, they`re going to say what they want to say.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Last night as we were hearing these chants, the

president just stood there.  He didn`t intervene.


REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA):  The President move on with the speech.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  But if there is no place for these –


MACCARTHY:  The Presidents takes –


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Does the president have a responsibility to cut this



MCCARTHY:  For those who are at the event and I was not, I didn`t see it,

but I did talk to some buddies there.  They said it was a small group off

to the side.  What the president did, the president did not join in.  The

president moved on.




HAYES:  Point of fact, the president didn`t move on.  He paused for 13

seconds to let the chant build.  Now, we are long past the point where

anyone can ask with the straight face where are the decent members of this

political coalition?  When will they stand up against this?  They won`t. 

We know that.


They did effectively nothing when the president praised the Nazis chanting

“Jews will not replace us” a night before one of their ranks murdered a

woman.  They did nothing when children as young as four months were ripped

from their mothers.  Nothing as fellow human beings were penned into cages

like so much livestock.  And the reason is very simple.  They are getting

what they want out of Trump.


Last night as I was on the train home, I saw this little item, tiny little

thing.  It wasn`t in the news.  A paragraph memo from the white-shoe

corporate law firm Wachtel basically telling its clients who hire them to

train people at their companies in how not to break the law, that they

should continue hiring them even though white-collar prosecutions under

Trump have basically disappeared.


That`s right.  Please keep paying us to teach your executives not to be

criminals even though they won`t be prosecuted if even if they are

criminals.  So that crowd in the arena, they get the elicit thrill of

chanting racist slogans and corporate America gets to get away with a



The Christian conservatives get to pick judges thanks to one of their very

own Leonard Leo who basically runs judicial vetting and who along with

Mitch McConnell has gotten a record number of judges on the federal appeals



Now, sure, Leonard Leo`s a devout Catholic but you`re not going to catch

him publicly criticizing a president who puts children in cages.  Corporate

America got $1 trillion tax cut.  Wall Street got massively declining SEC

fines, big polluters got an EPA that has their back rolling back

regulations including an announcement today that and I quote, “it would not

ban a widely used pesticide associated with developmental disabilities and

other health problems in children.”


The warmongers get the promise of a military confrontation with Iran while

the defense contractors get enormous billion-dollar boondoggles and a White

House that literally tweets out ads for their products.  Those who want to

slash social safety net when they get Mick Mulvaney at the Office of

Management and Budget who told the conservative Heritage Foundation

yesterday he`s been saying “OMB now under the management of the Heritage



And the bosses of America get an administration that quietly put out a

statement this week opposing the $15 minimum wage increase the Democrats in

the House passed today.  Each part of the Coalition has been dealt into the

Trump presidency.  It is a classic model of corrupt governance, the capo on

the top and the many, many bosses below who are given control of their

domain to do as they wish.


Because Trump doesn`t care at all about EPA policy or labor or Iran really

or anything really other than making money which the presidency allows them

to do with public dollars and being the center of attention which same. 

But the base, what does the base get, the folks in that arena?


Well, it`s obvious, isn`t it?  They get to chant, they get to revel in

their own American-ness and primacy at the expense of others.  They may not

get much more than that but Trump and now the entire Republican Party and

most of the conservative movement realized that that is enough for them.


They realized that no one actually cared about deficits or small

government.  That was never the fuel that fire of the engine of Republican

politics, it was always roiling rage against them that was on full display

in the “send her back” chants last night.  Without that rage, and that

passion, that enthusiasm, and fire in that room, this entire project falls



That sentiment at the core of the coalition cannot be pried loose and it

cannot be negotiated with and it cannot be appeased.  It must be

peacefully, nonviolently, politically destroyed with love, compassion, and

determination but utterly confronted and destroyed.


That is the only way to break the coalition apart.  Not by prying off this

or that interest, they are in too deep.  They have shamed themselves too

much.  The heart of the thing must be ripped out.  The darkness must be

banished.  The people who feel moral revulsion at that display we saw last

night must collectively mobilize in greater numbers than the chanters.


We got a taste of what that looks like when Congresswoman Ilhan Omar

returned home to Minnesota today.




AMERICAN CROWD:  Welcome home Ihan!  Welcome home Ihan!  Welcome home Ihan! 




HAYES:  That`s it.  That`s the only way out.  And it`s the task that all

decent people in this country must set themselves to.  Here to talk about

what Republicans need to do, Linda Chavez former official on the Reagan

administration, and David Jolly MSNBC Political Analyst and a former

Republican Congressman from Florida who left the GOP last year to become an



Linda, did you feel moral revulsion when you heard the chants?



I?  First of all, you know, this is nothing new to me, Chris.  I get told

every time I`m on television, every time I write about immigration to go

back where I came from.  In fact, one guy even wrote and said he was asking

President Trump to arrest and deport me.


My family came here in 1601.  My mother`s family from England came a little

bit later in the 1600s.  I have roots as deep as anyone in the United

States.  The only immigrants and my family came from Ireland, but I don`t

think anybody is suggesting that I go back to the British Isles.


HAYES:  David, what did you feel when you saw that and what did you feel

when you saw the reactions today which I should – I should be known and in

full fairness here that there were some Republican members of Congress Adam

Kinzinger comes to mind who were quite full-throated in their denunciation

mostly more soft-footed about it.  What were you expecting and what did you



DAVID JOLLY, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST:  Look it was heartbreaking.  And in

terms of what I felt, it was heartbreak.  Both last night and then to see

the likes of Lindsey Graham today suggests that the only problem is Omar

doesn`t wear a MAGA hat.  If refugees would just wear MAGA hats, they could

stay, the others deserve to go.


My concern though – and you`re seeing the president move away from this. 

We can`t forget that he single-handedly injected this poison into the

mainstream of American politics this week.  This is his fault.  But you`re

going to see Republicans devolve to love it or leave it.  And in many ways

Chris, I think that`s just as dangerous or more so than the chant of “send

her back.”


Love it or leave it suggests that love equates with political agreement,

that you must agree with political leadership.  It is anathema to

everything that this nation was founded on.  And so Trump and his

supporters will take love turn it into agreement suggesting that

Representative Omar must agree with an administration policy of putting

kids in cages or agree with injecting greater insecurity on the world

stage, or agree with the president criminally obstructing justice in the

Mueller investigation or criminally engaging in campaign finance

violations.  And if she fails to agree then she must leave.


And it is very much that dissent, that behavior.  Her oath that she took

was to the Constitution and not in the early 1990s, not to the president. 

And the Founders envisioned exactly her political dissent when they wrote

into that Constitution protections of her freedom.  And it was very much

the president`s behavior this week that our Founders feared when they wrote

Representative Omar`s protections into the Constitution.


What we saw tonight, that imagery you played of her returning home to

Minnesota, Donald Trump, Lindsey Graham, Kevin McCarthy, in attacking her

ideology but moving it to her race and to her status, they have taken their

foe and turned her into a hero tonight.


Omar and I come from different political journeys but we walk the same

road.  And God bless Representative Omar tonight because she is a hero in

the American lexicon tonight as a result of what Donald Trump has tried to

do to her.


HAYES:  Linda, you know, do you think that – you`ve been a Republican –

member of the Republican Party in the conservative movement for most of

your adult career.


CHAVEZ:  Correct.


HAYES:  Do you think people – when I say that – my guess, my

understanding, and the way that I want to think about this is that in a –

in a truth tank, you know, dosed with truth serum away from everything that

Thom Tillis who was up there you know saying well, you know, people say

things, that he when he sees that, he feels more moral revulsion, that

Lindsey Graham does, that they look at that and they see a Frankenstein

that they have created.  Am I wrong about that?


CHAVEZ:  Well, I hope you are wrong about that.  I can`t figure out Lindsey

Graham.  I really can`t.  I don`t know what`s happened to him.  I mean,

it`s almost as if an alien has abducted him and we have some creature there

who is spouting out things that Lindsey Graham never believed and never

stood for.


But the fact is I am staying in the Republican Party.  I haven`t done what

David has because I will not be driven out of a party with whom I agree on

important issues by a cult of people who treat the President of the United

States as if he is the Dear Leader, as if their loyalty should be to him

instead of to principle and to country.


And I think he is destroying the Republican Party.  I think what`s going to

happen in the next election is a lot of people are not going to vote for

Donald Trump who voted for him last time.  And a lot of people who didn`t

come out to vote are going to come out because they feel our democracy is

threatened by this man.


HAYES:  There`s always this hope among certain people, the fever breaks and

that`s a term that Barack Obama used to use in interviews David.  And I

think people think about the McCarthy moment, to have long, long last have

you no decency.  And McCarthy ends up – the bubble – this sort of air

comes out of the balloon.  He dies sort of disgraced.  Do you see that



JOLLY:  I don`t because what happened last night was an irresponsible

leader met a xenophobic constituency.  That constituency will be there and

this president will always now empower that constituency and the likes of

Lindsey Graham will seek the embrace of Donald Trump for their own

political protection.


I wish I saw the fever breaking.  If so I may not have left.  But you know,

to Linda`s point, my personal decision is in part informed by the fact that

I will never trust these Republican leaders again because we get to assess

the judgment of our elected leaders.


Chris, you often talk about your assessment of the Bush administration`s

decisions around the Gulf War and decisions going into Iraq.  We are faced

with the political crisis and Donald Trump and we have seen a failure in

judgment by every single Republican leader that`s fallen in line.  I will

never trust them again nor should the American people.  And so it will

never be a coalition in which I will find a trustful embrace going forward.


HAYES:  Linda Chavez, David Jolly, thank you both.  I really appreciate

hearing from you.  Joining me now Democratic Congressman Joe Neguse of

Colorado who serves in the House Judiciary Committee.  His parents

emigrated from Eritrea.  What was the conversation like on the Hill today?


REP. JOE NEGUSE (D-CO):  There have been a lot of hard conversations this

week.  I mean look, I find it hard to believe that any American could look

at that video from last night and not be deeply disturbed.  As you said, a

visceral revulsion, it was just is offensive and really I think scary.  And

it`s scary for a lot of members of Congress and it`s scary for the American



I spoke at a rally in Boulder in Colorado last week back in my district, a

vigil for immigrant rights.  And as I told my constituents, I struggled to

find the words to describe the environment that we find ourselves in right

now where you have children in cages, you have babies being split from

their parents, separated from their parents, and you have a president who

is inflaming racial divisions and sending out racist tweets and so forth,

and the chants last night.


It is just difficult for me to find the right words to describe it in part

because it is so wildly inconsistent with the America that I`ve known all

my life, the America that I`ve loved.  You know I as you said, Chris, I`m

the son of immigrants.  My parents were African refugees who came here over

35 years ago.  And we`ve lived the American dream.


And it is only by virtue of the incredible freedoms and the opportunities

that we have in the United States that we`ve been able to do that.  And to

see this kind of division and to see a president, a commander in chief who

is supposed to be the leader of the free world who was supposed to inspire

us and lead us, instead fanned the flames of racial hatred and xenophobia

and so forth.  It is just deeply disappointing.


HAYES:  I should note, the president said today that he – I disagree with

it.  I didn`t say that, they did.  I disagree with it.  That was what he

said and then he lied and said that he went quickly even though he stepped

back to let the crowd chant.  We all saw it.


NEGUSE:  I don`t think this is the last we have seen – I mean, if past is

prologue, we know, you know –


HAYES:  Lock her up for years.


NEGUSE:  That`s right.  That`s right, his comments about African countries

a year ago, before the 2018 election.  And let`s not forget not just what

he is saying but what his administration is doing every day.  You have

covered it extensively.  The abuses that are happening on our southern

border, right, they reflect this same tone that the President takes in his

remarks each and every day.


HAYES:  There`s been – before this happened, there was a crazy few weeks

with new cycles of really intense fighting among various groups within your

Democratic caucus.  So a tweet by leadership, attacking the chief of staff

at AOC, there were anonymous reps talking to a reporter yesterday, Jake

Tapper criticizing the response from leadership and defending Omar, may be

that the President had been politically genius.


Like what`s going on over there?  You guys – you guys together, you focus,

you understand what you`re up against?


NEGUSE:  So I would say this.  There`s always going to be palace intrigue. 

Obviously, I`m new to Congress and acclimated to that.  But I`ve been in

Washington in the last few days and have been in the House caucus meetings. 

I`ve had countless conversations with my colleagues and particularly my

freshman colleagues across the ideological spectrum.


And I would tell you the caucus is very united, deeply united because we

all recognize that we are in a fight for the soul of our country. 

Everything is on the line.  And so –


HAYES:  I mean, it`s you guys versus the chants.  Like that`s it.  No,

really.  That`s what it is.  This is what the country is right now.  And I

think one thing that sometimes Democrats don`t seem to understand is that

the majority is with the non-chanters, right.


NEGUSE:  I agree.


HAYES:  Do you understand that?


NEGUSE:  I agree.


HAYES:  Democrats on the Hill – and I get this because there are frontline

members who were in plus-five Republican districts.  So they got to go home

and they understand.  But like – I feel like you`ve got to just have faith

that the majority is with you against the chanters, right?


NEGUSE:  No, I would say this.  Again, Chris, as I mentioned, one of the

best parts about serving in Congress for a freshman like me has been able

to get to know my colleagues, the incredible freshman members as I said,

across the ideological spectrum.  And I will tell you each and every one of

them is devoted to doing the people`s business and they understand that

this country right now I think eventually we will bounce back from this

dark chapter we find ourselves.


HAYES:  All right, Congressman Joe Neguse of Colorado, thank you so much. 

Good to see you in person.  Next, the President incites violence.  When are

Democrats going to rein him in?  House Judiciary Chair Jerry Nadler on the

plan to hold Trump accountable in two minutes.




HAYES:  House Democrats yesterday continued the steady as she goes strategy

for trying to rein in a lawless president running around inciting mobs. 

The House voted yesterday to hold Attorney General William Barr and

Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross and criminal contempt for failure to comply

with subpoenas related to their census probe.


Also yesterday a majority of Democrats joined all the Republicans in voting

down a resolution to impeach President Trump over his racist comments from

this week.  And while the Special Counsel Robert Mueller finally testifying

next week, a lot of people are looking around and seeing mostly stalled or

slow going attempts at oversight in Congress and a lawless president

inciting a mob and wondering what the Democratic majority is actually doing

to check Donald Trump.


Here`s someone who could answer that question.  Joining me now Congressman

Jerry Nadler of New York, Chair of the House Judiciary Committee, the

committee that Special Counsel Robert Mueller will be appearing before next



Let`s talk about pace first of all, right.  I think you probably understand

why people feel impatient particularly when they see the scene play out

that we saw him last night.  What`s your – what`s your elevator pitch to

folks about what is essentially I think a kind of tortoise and hare

approach, a sort of scrupulous collection of the facts?


REP. JERRY NADLER (D-NY):  Well, we have no choice.  We have to do what

we`re doing.  We have never – no Congress in history has faced the

administration that simply ignored all subpoenas and all the requests for



HAYES:  Am I right they still have just ignored everything?  Have they

turned anything over to the Judiciary Committee?


NADLER:  They have turned over some stuff.


HAYES:  They have.


NADLER:  But we call in witnesses and they say don`t appear, we call in

witnesses and they say they have absolute immunity, don`t answer anything

about anything that you saw or heard or said during the – during the

administration.  This claim of absolute immunity is nonsense.  We have to

break it.


So we`re having the Mueller hearing next week in which we will show – I

mean first of all, the President, and the Attorney General, and the right-

wing media have been lying about what was in the Mueller report no

collusion, no obstruction which was simply not true.  We have to show the

American people what was there.


The special counsel indicted 37 individuals for breaking the law with

respect to interfering the election.  He showed ten instances of

obstruction of justice by the president.  He showed instance after instance

of the president lying to the American people are instructing other people

to lie to the American people with investigators.  This has to come out so

that people understand it and so we can go on from there.


And we will be going into court and it`s been frustrating how slow it is

getting into court but we have the House Counsel has got to do a number of

them you know, the Deutsche Bank case, the Mazars case, the tax case. 

We`ll be going to court very shortly on enforcing the McGahn – on getting

a grand jury material and enforcing the McGahn –


HAYES:  Subpoena.


NADLER:  – subpoena, yes, subpoena.  And since the McGahn subpoena –

their opposition to it, their withstanding of it used the exact same legal

theories which are nonsense in my opinion as they do in every other one,

when we break that, that`ll break the log jam.


HAYES:  I`ve seen some people argue that partly because the legal theories

they`ve used to fight the subpoenas have to do with the legislative purpose

that if you were doing this in pursuit of an impeachment inquiry, you would

be on firmer constitutional ground because you`re clearly acting under an

enumerated constitutional power given solely to the Congress.  What do you

think about that legal argument?


NADLER:  It`s true.  It`s true to some extent that –


HAYES:  You would have a stronger case in the courts?


NADLER:  Somewhat.  The courts have held that our ability to investigate is

at it`s – is at its zenith when we`re – when we`re doing an impeachment. 

We can get 60 information in a judicial proceeding.  Impeachment has been

held to be a judicial proceeding or a part of a judicial proceeding.  Yes

that is – that is valid.


HAYES:  You wrote a letter to Hope Hicks today.  Hope Hicks, I believe,

told you in the testimony for Judiciary Committee that she had no knowledge

of the hush-money payments.  There`s some documents unsealed today in the

Michael Cohen case we`re going to cover in a little bit that suggests it`s

possible she did.  Do you think she lied to you?


NADLER:  Well, it certainly appears she may have.  We wrote – we wrote a

letter to her, we released that today inviting her back to clarify her

testimony because there certainly seems to be evidence that she may not

have told us the truth.


HAYES:  You said I would expect you to clarify this matter before the

committee in very short order but no later than August 15th.  Do you expect

some written testimony from her or for her to appear before your committee



NADLER:  I don`t know which one.  I want to – I want to ask what your

expectation is for Robert Mueller.  There`s a sort of – there`s a sort of

strange situation in which he clearly doesn`t want to do this although he`s


NADLER:  He does not.


HAYES:  He does not.  And he`s a good soldier.  I mean, he`s not going to

defy a subpoena and he`s not – so he`s going to come there.  So how do you

approach it given that your knowledge that he doesn`t want to be there?


NADLER:  We will ask questions designed to elicit the information designed

to get the information out there that we want, designed to show what his

report found that is at odds with what the administration and the Attorney

General have been – have been saying.


As I said, to show that the ten instances of obstruction of justice by the

President, to show the repeated times where the president instructs people

to lie to the American people or to Congress.


HAYES:  So you want him to tell you the report in front of the cameras and

the American people.


NADLER:  To a large extent.  Hopefully will go a little further, but yes.


HAYES:  Do you think you can get him outside the four corners of the



NADLER:  I don`t know.  But the key is to get this there`s been – from the

– from before the report was released, when Barr gave that bogus summary

the report, there`s been a deliberate campaign of lying and disinformation

and – as to what`s in the report and it`s of supreme importance that

people understand what we`re dealing with and we can go on from there.  I

think it changes the ground that we`re standing on.


HAYES:  This is a weird process question but it`s my final one.  Have you

figure out a way to – like are you pulling your time in any way, are you

making sure that you`re working together on the questioning here?




HAYES:  You are?


NADLER:  Very much so.


HAYES:  OK.  That`s good to hear.  Congressman Jerry Nadler, thank you for

being here.


NADLER:  You`re welcome.


HAYES:  Coming up, new revelations about the criminal conspiracy to get

Donald Trump elected.  The court documents that detail the President`s

involvement next.




HAYES:  The President`s former lawyer Michael Cohen might be sitting in a

prison in Otisville, New York, but that doesn`t mean that he isn`t making

Donald Trump`s life miserable from behind bars.


Today we got an amazing document dump, a cache of almost 300 pages,

detailing how the president, his personal lawyer, and members of his

campaign scrambled to pay off adult film star Stormy Daniels in the final

stretch of the presidential campaign, an illegal payoff, we should note,

that`s part of the reason why Michael Cohen is serving time.


We got these documents today because prosecutors said that they have

completed their investigation into campaign finance violations by Michael

Cohen and members of the Trump Org.


These documents state that on the day after the release of the Access

Hollywood tape in October 2016, where we heard Donald Trump bragging about

sexually assaulting women on tape, Donald Trump, Hope Hicks and Michael

Cohen spoke on the phone, and that was followed by a flurry of calls

between  Hicks, Cohen, and representatives of American Media Inc, the

publisher of The National Enquirer, all as a way to keep quiet any

allegations about  then candidate Trump and Stormy Daniels.


It`s worth remembering that at the time, there were reports of discussions

at the highest level of the Republican Party about replacing Donald Trump

on the ticket.  Those reports have since been borne out in reporting,

including in Tim Alberta`s new book American Carnage.


Donald Trump was hanging on by his fingernails at that point, so imagine

if, say, the day after the tape had been released, word had gotten out that

Donald Trump had had an affair with an adult film

star while his wife was at home with a new baby.  That could have been the

final blow to his campaign.


Here to unravel these new documents with me are Nick Akerman, former

assistant special Watergate prosecutor, and former federal prosecutor

Cynthia Alksne, both are MSNBC legal analysts.


Nick, you`re sitting right h ere so I`ll start with you.  What have we

learned today?



what we learned is a little more detail that Donald Trump was right in the

middle of this thing directly.  I mean, we already knew there were two

witnesses – it was Michael Cohen who

basically put Trump right in the middle of this, had a tape recording of

him discussing this.  You have got the people from The National Enquirer

that were given immunity.  You have got his own accountants who was given

immunity, and also testified.


I mean, I think the bottom line is if he was not president of the United

States, he would be indicted.


HAYES:  You know, that seems to be the way that it came through to me here,

that the fact that we know he was involved, or appears to be intimately

involved in the conspiracy, and that he directed the illegal payments, is

that your sense that if this was Donald Trump private citizen, he probably

would have been indicted?





My general attitude is while we learn more about the tick-tock and the

timing of the calls and  who was three minutes and who was five minutes, I

mean basically, this is a conspiracy we know  that happened.  We know that

it was created by him, it benefited him, he paid for it, and he managed it. 

None of that is news to me.  So I don`t think there is any question but for

the fact that he was president he would be indicted.


HAYES:  Although what is news is that he was on the calls, right.  We

didn`t know that before.


We assumed, right?


ALKSNE:  We assumed.  That`s my point, we know more about the tick-tock,

but we know he is the kind of person who manages the release of his money. 

I mean, he is paying out $130,000 – all  this money.  And we know just

from the way his management style is that he was involved in some way.


AKERMAN:  But you to look at this in the context.  This was – as you

pointed out, it`s the day after the Access Hollywood tape comes out.  It`s

also the day after the Podesta emails come out.


So here you`ve got Donald Trump trying to bury this story, but you`ve also

got them trying to  deflect the story.


HAYES:  Yeah.


AKERMAN:  And so the real question is what did the campaign know and what

did they do about those Podesta emails?  Because you`ve got indicia (ph) in

the Mueller report that Donald Trump was on top of what was going on with



HAYES:  I mean, we know that someone said to Roger Stone, who is associated

with the campaign after they`re published good job.


AKERMAN:  That`s right.


HAYES:  That has been established.  That`s in court documents.


But the other thing to me, Cynthia, is like when you think about the story,

you think well, it`s

a campaign finance violation, and John Edwards went down for something

similar, but didn`t with the legal theory there was a little tenuous.  But

in this case, what`s clear is like the timing makes it clear it`s all about

the campaign, and not just all about the campaign, successfully about the

campaign.  They ran a criminal conspiracy that violated – criminally

violated campaign finance law to their tremendous benefit.


ALKSNE:  Right.  And they were felonies because of the size of the amount.


And let me say something about that Jon Edwards thing, people bring that up

all the time, in the Jon Edwards case, there were no witnesses.  The two

witnesses who were the most critical to the prosecution were either dead or

not available, so that isn`t a really good comparison that people use as a 

defense.  It`s actually not that good a comparison.


HAYES:  Do you think this hangs out?  Like what – so let`s play out the

thought experiment.  Donald Trump is there implicated in all this.  There

is a guy who is in prison right now for doing this.   Donald Trump is the

president.  So what does that mean?


AKERMAN:  What it means is we have a felon for a president who we can`t

indict.  I mean, don`t forget, Chris…


HAYES:  Alleged felon.


AKERMAN:  Alleged felon, fair enough.


HAYES:  Come on, you`re a defense lawyer now, buddy.


AKERMAN:  I`m not defending Donald Trump. 


But let me say this, there are three other  investigations at the Southern

District of New York supposedly has and is now undertaking.  We don`t know

what those are.  This is one I think we all  expected to be closed because

Trump is the president.  The two other main players here were given



HAYES:  Right.  And he is the guy, like clearly directed.  Like the person

at the top of this entire pyramid is Donald Trump.


AKERMAN:  Right, so it`s no surprise that Donald Trump closed this out. 

But the real question is how about those other three investigations.


HAYES:  Right.  We think some of them have to deal with the inaugural

money.  And we`ll learn more about that.


Cynthia Alksne and Nick AKERMAN, thank you for sharing your time.


AKERMAN:  Thank you.


ALKSNE:  Thank you.


HAYES:  Coming up, exploring the dangerous implications the president`s

rhetoric at rallies,

plus a bizarre final push from the man who wants to be prime minister. 

Tonight`s Thing One, Thing Two, next.




HAYES:  Thing One tonight, we`re less than two weeks away now from the

second Democratic

presidential debates in Detroit, Michigan, and by the end of tonight, we`ll

know which of the candidates

will appear on which of the two nights.


One of the newer debate rules states that a candidate who consistently

interrupts will have their time reduced.  We can presume that another long-

standing rule will apply, no props.  That`s typically not been an issue in

American debates.  Charlie Crist once had a fan under the podium in a

gubernatorial debate, pointed at his pants, but that was not so much as a

prop as a strange personal  comfort situation.


British debates, on the other hand, they don`t care what you bring.




BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY:  Do you understand why it is that

we must leave the EU, the advantages of coming out of the EU, I want you to

consider this kipper.




HAYES:  Boris Johnson`s fish is Thing Two in 60 seconds.




HAYES:  We here at All In love to learn new British words.  And we have got

two good ones tonight.  First, kipper.  You know what a kipper i, it`s a

delicious smoked fish popular in Britain.  It`s like a herring, another new

work BoJo, that`s the nickname for Boris Johnson, currently the candidate

most likely to become the next British prime minister. 


Now you may remember BoJo from the famous, or infamous, zip-lining incident

as London mayor or when he admitted he drinks an often lot at lunch every

day like his hero, Winston Churchill.  That, we think, might explain this

recent interview.




JOHNSON:  I make buses.  What I make is I get old, I don`t know, wooden

crates, I paint the passengers enjoying themselves.




JOHNSON:  On the wonderful bus.




HAYES:  He paints them enjoying themselves.


This week, the conservative Tory Party in England held the final debate

before they`ll choose their next leader who will become the next prime

minister.  And we`re not sure what BoJo had for lunch.




JOHNSON:  I want you to consider this kipper, this kipper, which has been

presented to me just now by the editor of a national newspaper, who

received it from a kipper smoker in the Isle of Man, who is utterly

furious, because after decades of sending kippers like this through the

post, he has had his costs massively increased by Brussels bureaucrats who

insisted that each kipper must be accompanied by this, a plastic ice pillow

– pointless, pointless, expensive, environmentally damaging, health and

safety, ladies and gentlemen.




HAYES:  By the way, even if they leave the EU, the regulation will still

pertain to the things they ship to the EU, so it doesn`t solve the problem. 

A plastic ice pillow.


Boris Johnson has often been compared to Donald Trump and for good reason

like, for instance, that whole thing with the fish was a lie.  It`s not an

EU rule that requires a plastic ice pillow, it`s an existing British rule. 

But he is the front-runner.  What could possibly go wrong?




HAYES:  It didn`t get a ton of attention at the time, but a few months ago,

a New York man was

charged with threatening to kill Ilhan Omar.  According to prosecutors, he

told one of her staffers “why are you working for her?  She is an

[expletive] terrorist.  I`ll put a bullet in her [expletive] skull.”


The man reportedly had over a thousand bullets in his home, along with six

guns, including  an AK-47.


Less than two weeks later. another man was arrested for death threats

against Omar, Rashida Tlaib and Cory Booker.  He left a message in which he

told Tlaib about Omar: “I`d like to take that B

and throw her off the Empire State Building.”


There are tangible consequences to the decision by Trump and his enablers

on Trump TV and elsewhere to incite rage against Omar, Alexandria Ocasio-

Cortez, Tlaib and other critics, often by lying about what they have said.




REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, (D) NEW YORK:  The president put millions of

Americans in danger last night.  His rhetoric is endangering lots of

people.  This is not just about threats to individual members of congress,

but it is about creating a volatile environment in this country through

violent rhetoric that puts anyone like Ilhan, anyone who believes in the

rights of all people in



UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Are you scared for your safety right now?


REP. ILHAN OMAR, (D) MINNESOTA:  I am not.  What I`m scared for is the

safety for people who share my identity.




HAYES:  The incitement we saw at Trump`s rally last night is not a new

story.  Trump has been flirting with and encouraging violence, tacitly, and

sometimes explicitly, dating back to his rallies in the 2016 campaign.




TRUMP:  If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap

out of them, would you?  Seriously.  I will pay for the legal fees, I



We`re not allowed to punch back anymore.  I love the old days.  You know

what they used to do to guys like that when they were at a place like this? 

They would be carried out on a stretcher, folks.


I`d like to punch them in the face, I`ll tell you.




HAYES:  Some of Trump`s supporters heard that message from Trump loud and

clear.  Take for instance this man who cold-cocked a protester in North





UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Did you like the event?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You bet I liked it.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yeah?  What did you like about it?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Knocking the hell out of that big mouth.  We don`t know

who he is, but we know he`s not acting like an American.


Yes, he deserved it.  The next time we see him, we might have to kill him.




HAYES:  Not acting like an American.  Might have to kill him.  Wow.  It`s

already all there.


Things eventually got so bad the Trump campaign was forced to play a public

address  announcement to try and dissuade violence at their own rallies.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  If a protest starts near you, please, do not in any

way touch or harm a protester.  Please notify law enforcement officers of

the location of the protester by holding a rally sign over your head and

chanting “Trump, Trump, Trump.”




HAYES: The Trump inspired violence did not stop after election day.  You

remember this guy?  That`s Cesar Sayoc, AKA the MAGA bomber, the Trump

super fan, that`s his van.  He plead guilty to mailing 16 explosive device

to Trump`s most prominent critics, including two former presidents.


Sayoc described attending a Trump rally as akin to finding a new drug.  He

wrote that he believed he was, quote, on the front lines of a war between

right and left.


It`s not like things are just now getting dangerous, thanks to Trump`s

rhetoric, they have been dangerous from the start and they are getting

worse.  How we respond, according to my next guest, will define us forever. 

We will talk about that, next.






TRUMP:  Omar has a history of launching vicious anti-Semitic screeds.


CROWD:  Send her back!  Send her back!  Send her back!  Send her back! 

Send her back!  Send her back!




HAYES:  Joining me now to discuss the darkness of what Donald Trump is

doing, Adam Serwer, staff writer for The Atlantic, whose new piece is “What

Americans do now will define us

forever.”  Also with me, New York University professor and historian Ruth

Ben-Ghiat, whose forthcoming book is “Strongmen: How they Rise, Why they

Succeed, and How they Fall.”


Based on your research and study and what you have learned, what did you

see last night?


RUTH BEN-GHIAT, NYU PROFESSOR:  I saw a leader who has been very successful

and is pleased with himself at how well he has trained people to hatred. 

Besides the chant, send her back, the moment that impressed me, and not in

a good way is when he stood back for the 13 seconds and let the

chants wash over him with his signature smirk on his face, because what he

has been doing is educating people not to care, and also allowing them to

feel joy in expressing hatred that`s sanctioned by the state.


HAYES:  Adam, you said what we do now will define us forever.  And the

essay, which is up at The Atlantic, I would recommend people read, it`s

really quite excellent.  What do you mean by that?




Well, from the beginning of the United States, we have been haunted by this

question is America a white man`s republic or is it a nation for all of its

citizens?  And throughout the last 200 some odd years, the greatest threat

to American democracy has always been white nationalism, the

defining of American citizenship in racial terms.  It has almost destroyed

the country on multiple occasions.


And now President Trump has drawn a line.  He has now made it clear that

the citizenship of American citizens who are not white is conditional and

can be revoked.  And he is – quite frankly, look, there is lots of

disagreement between the two political parties.  There are lots of issues

on which we differ, but this is not a question on which there can actually

be disagreement.  The choice is now quite clear.


HAYES:  You talked about the way that he is sort of radicalizing people. 

And I think that`s one of the things that is most disturbing here.  This is

polling on the question, is American too open to

foreigners?  And we should keep in mind that the general public under the

Trump administration has gotten more friendly towards immigrants and

immigration.  People have been thinking immigration is a good thing.  But

among Republicans, you can see there back in 2017, 47 percent now 57

percent, so he is pushing people towards that extreme with his leadership.


BEN-GHIAT:  Yeah, and this is the toll of this eco chamber that`s going on. 

And it`s not just Fox News and not it`s not just Trump, all of this is

coordinated.  He has a very efficient propaganda machine.


So, the display of – you know, the horrible display of migrants in cages

and the studied indifference of Vice President Pence and Kellyanne Conway

who happened to ask a Jewish reporter Ashley Feinberg (ph) what is your



HAYES:  Andrew Feinberg (ph), y eah.


BEN-GHIAT:  Yes, sorry.


That`s all related and it`s all coordinated.  And this is his attempt to

keep his base and ratchet up their indoctrination of them in the way he

needs them to be.


He needs to form a public that is going to approve of his racist and white

nationalist agendas.


HAYES:  Adam, I want to play this clip of George Wallace in 1968.  And at

the time people were shocked by his rallies.  There were people who were

writing about how they were this kind of thrill for people in the audience. 

And he would sort of bait protesters who had come.  Take a look at a clip

and I want to get your reaction to it.




GEORGE WALLACE, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  And you know the biggest bigots in

the world, they are supposed to call other folks bigots.  You  remember

that.  They are the biggest bigots in the world.  You know what you are,

you are a little punk, that`s all you are.




HAYES:  I mean, it`s – the resonances there are pretty intense.


SERWER:  They are tremendous.  But I want to point out that Wallace was

never president of the United States.  What we saw last night was one of

the most grotesque displays by an American president in the history of this

country.  We have not seen anything like it before.  We have had racist

presidents.  We`ve had demagogues in the White House.  We never had a

president who singled out a minority, a person of color, a woman, a

representative of the United States congress in this way as an object of

political hatred for the masses.  It is frankly astonishing.


HAYES:  And your point,  Adam, in that essay, which I think is an important

one is, we have never had that before in part because we never had

multiracial democracy has never been as real as it is right now.  And part

of what is at the point is that there is an Ilhan Omar in congress, that

has not happened before.  And the president understands that that freaks

out the people in his base.


SERWER:  It terrifies them.


BEN-GHIAT:  If you look at history, which is a lot of parallels, almost

every time a right wing  government has taken over, it has been after a

period of great progress for women, for people of color, for the left,

meaning for worker`s rights.  And it`s like these strongmen come up and

they hold their hand up and say stop.  We must turn the clock back.


So, there is a terrible fear of losing privilege.  And they also create

these stories of gloom and the abyss which is what Trump has been effective

doing, scare tactics.


HAYES:  We at I think a really crucial moment.  And Adam, I, like you and

like everyone else, am just worried about what this campaign looks like for

the safety and integrity of the nation and its citizens. 


Adam Serwer, Ruth Ben-Ghiat, thank you both for being with me.  I

appreciate it.


That`s ALL IN for this evening.  “THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW” starts right now.







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