Sherrod Brown is not running for President. TRANSCRIPT: 3/11/19, All In w/ Chris Hayes.

Angelo Carusone, Karina Jean-Pierre, Waleed Shahid, Caitlin Ostroff, Mehdi Hassan, Sherrod Brown

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  – for such a constitutional explosion and act

now upon the lethal accumulation of public evidence Mr. Trump has already

piled high.  That`s HARDBALL for now.  “ALL IN” with Chris Hayes starts

right now.









HAYES:  A full-blown scandal at Trump T.V.


TRUMP:  She`s my friend and she`s your friend Justice Jeanine.


HAYES:  Tonight why Fox News is condemning one of its own.


JEANINE PIRRO, HOST, FOX NEWS CHANNEL:  Is her adherence to this Islamic

doctrine indicative of her adherence to Sharia law?


HAYES:  As the President keeps lowering the bar.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Does the President truly believe that Democrats hate



HAYES:  Then David Corn on new reporting about Mar-a-Lago and the massage

parlor magnate selling access to the president.  Plus Mehdi Hasan on the

fallout from his stunning Erik Prince interview.


MEHDI HASAN, BRITISH JOURNALIST:  We just went through the testimony. 

There`s no mention of the Trump Tower Meeting in August 2016.  Why not?


ERIK PRINCE, AMERICAN BUSINESSMAN:  I don`t know if they got the transcript



HAYES:  And Senator Sherrod Brown on how he decided not to run for

president when ALL IN starts right now.




HAYES:  Good evening from New York I`m Chris Hayes.  There`s breaking news

right now on the scandal that is engulfing Fox News.  More audio has been

unearthed which we have here exclusively of one of the channels primetime

host using a homophobic slur, also calling the people of Iraq and I quote

here semi-literate primitive monkeys where whom he had “zero sympathy”

because they “don`t use toilet paper or forks.”


It`s also some pretty racially gross things said about Barack and Michelle

Obama.  The audio just broke.  We`ll play that for you shortly.  There`s

never been in modern American life a single media outlet more important to

a presidency than Fox News is for Donald Trump.  Trump literally watches it

all day.  He live tweets Fox and Friends or sometimes on delay because he

DVRs it.


He sends advertisements for it.  It forms his ideas and they run

interference for him.  And it is impossible to know really where one ends

and the other begins.  Less than a week ago, disgraced Fox News executive

Bill Shine was the White House Communications Director before he got turfed

out.  So if the President sits down at Mar-a-Lago on a Saturday night for

an opinion on what`s going on in the world, this is the kind of thing he

might see.




PIRRO:  Omar wears a hijab which according to the Koran 33:59 tells women

to cover so they won`t get molested.  Is her adherence to this Islamic

doctrine indicative of her adherence to Sharia law which in itself is

antithetical to the United States Constitution?




HAYES:  Is her religious devotion antithetical the U.S. Constitution? 

Great question.  The on its face bigoted comment it is not at all out of

step for the rest of the rhetoric at Fox News where anti-Muslim bigotry is

a part of the routine programming.  The network said in the statement “we

strongly condemn Jeanine Pirro`s comments about representative Ilhan Omar. 

They do not reflect those of the network and we have addressed the matter

with her directly.


Pirro for her part said “I did not call Representative Omar un-American my

intention was to ask a question and start a debate but of course because

one is Muslim does not mean you don`t support the Constitution.


She`s just asking question, people, just putting forward ideas to discuss

like for instance Tucker Carlson does.  He`s always really just asking

questions, not defending anything, just asking questions.




TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, FOX NEWS CHANNEL:  Look, I`m not defending Trump.  I

just read what he did today.


President Trump said what he said on the tape.  I`m not defending it.


I`m not defending white supremacy.  I don`t believe in it, I don`t approve

of it.


You`re not going to put me in the position to defend the ugliness of a lot

of the things online.


I`m not defending the creepiness on the internet, I hate it just like you





HAYES:  He hates it.  He does not defending the thing that he`s defending. 

Of course, everyone knows what Tucker is doing when he says this including

white supremacists who recently leaked chats are praising Carlson for how

he injects ideals of white nationalism into the discourse through this sort

of cowardly disassociation with his own views.


But Carlson has been doing this stick forever.  Media Matters has unearthed

comments that Carlson made on shock-jock radio program between 2006 and

2011 about among many other things when child rape is OK, indefensible? 

You can tell from listening that they are not made in jest.




CARLSON:  Well, actually he`s not in prison for that.  He didn`t – Warren

Jeff didn`t marry underage girls, actually.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  No, he`s in prison for facilitation of child rape.


CARLSON:  Whatever the hell that means.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  That means that –


CARLSON:  He`s in prison because he`s weird and unpopular and he has a

different lifestyle that other people find creepy.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  No, he`s an accessory to the rape of children.  That is

a felony and serious one at that.


CARLSON:  What do you mean an accessory?  He`s like got some weird

religious cult where he thinks it`s OK to you know, marry underage girls,

but he didn`t do it.  Why wouldn`t the guy who actually did it, who sex

with an underage girl, he should be the one who`s doing life.


I`m not defending underage marriage at all.  I just don`t think it`s the

same thing exactly as pulling a child from a bus stop and sexually

assaulting a child.  The rapist, in this case, has made a lifelong

commitment to live and take care of the person, so it`s a little different. 

I mean, let`s be honest about it.




HAYES:  Let`s be honest about the distinctions between raping a child once

and then raping a child and forcibly maintaining your control over them to

rape them again.  Carlson went to Twitter and did not apologize saying

Media Matters caught me saying something naughty on a radio show more than

a decade ago, refused to express the “usual ritual contrition.”


Here with me now, the President of the group that uncovered that audio of

Tucker Carlson, Angelo Carusone of Media Matters for America.  You have new

audio you have just published this evening.




HAYES:  Where should we start?  There`s one clip in which he uses a

homophobic slur.  I think that we have that which you`ve just published. 

Take a listen.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Tuck, do you like coming on with us because I like you. 

I mean, I`m not trying to (BLEEP) on you or nothing, but I like – I like



CARLSON:  Well, I like you too.  And I mean that you always say, “I mean,

that in a non-(BLEEP), way,” but I actually mean it in a completely (BLEEP)





CARUSONE:  I mean, I mean, I think what struck me about a lot of these

clips was not just that fact that they`re so consistent with the things

that he says now, but the comfort in which he says that.  It sounds like

you`re actually getting to see the real Tucker Carlson.


And all these profiles, they talk about how private he is.  How he lives

behind this really deep veneer, how detached he is, right?  It`s a strange

thing.  I feel like that`s the real Tucker.  And that`s the part that

struck me is there`s a casualness to it.  That just feels that that`s not

the only time he said that.


HAYES:  Yes.  I mean – let me just say that my position on this is like

the more information the better.  People should hear it and Tucker

obviously couldn`t defend himself and he can own the things he says like,

for instance, I hate the war.  You know, I`m not defending the war in any

way but just at zero sympathy for them as a culture.  Meaning Iraq is a

culture where people don`t use toilet paper or forks.


This is him in 2008.  This is after hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have

been killed.  If I didn`t like Canada, I wouldn`t consider it worth

invading.  I mean, Iraq is a crappy place filled with a bunch of you know,

semi-literate primitive monkeys that`s why it wasn`t worth invading.


I just want to say that like this stuff is just you know, honestly what his

views are and they shine through generally today ten years later.


CARUSONE:  They are.  And there was this point where he said that he

fantasized about a candidate running for president who basically promises

to eradicate all of the Muslims.  I`m almost literally forecasting the

appeal that Donald Trump would actually present an audience.


HAYES:  He has a long rift about how much a candidate would catch fire if

he said I`m sick of P.C. culture.  I`m just going to basically kill a lot

of Muslims.


CARUSONE:  Exactly.  And I think that if you tie that with Tucker`s

programming today and I think that`s why you see so much of a winking and

nodding.  Before his show even launched, we actually found his new

producers going into these chat rooms and posting on the Donald subreddit

announcing that their program was there, saying that they wanted to be a

part of it, inviting ideas and very consistently there`s always this

segment that is a – that is a top story that`s on the chance or one of

these communities because he`s elevating it and giving out oxygen and air



HAYES:  This is a sort of argument, the devil`s advocate argument here. 

This was said 12, 13 years ago, during – I will note he`s employment at

this network, not at Fox News.


CARUSONE:  Yes, correct.


HAYES:  This was said a long time ago and you know, you`re digging this up

because you don`t like him anyway.


CARUSONE:  That`s – I understand why that`s the case.  If that was the

case, we just wanted a bombard with everything that I would have taken a

lot of the 100 plus hours that we listened to a Bubba the Love Sponge in

Tucker Carlson.  I would have played a lot of random other clips because he

said a lot of awful things that are objectionable.  The reason why –



HAYES:  Wait, so he said something you not – you`ve chosen not to publish?


CARUSONE:  Tons, tons of it.  The reason why we didn`t though is precisely

because of that.  Not because I`m trying to be some nice guy or give him a

favor but because I think the argument for pulling this out now is one,

because of his relationship to the President and the consumption too that I

think it gives some context and insight into what he does nightly on his



And to the extent that they enrich that understanding, I think it is

worthwhile.  So that`s why we focused on things that he said repeatedly and

thematically and that also echo his programming today.  And I think that

makes it much more relevant.


HAYES:  There`s a – there`s a riff at one point about Barack Obama as

well.  Michelle Obama acting like a “sister” excessively black in the

estimation of both the co-host and Tucker Carlson at one point.


CARUSONE:  I think he used the characterization ghetto, what he was

referring to that.


HAYES:  And there is also the idea that a Barack Obama would still be a

state senator if you were white which is one thing that he said at a

certain point.  So a lot of this sort of racial themes are a lot of railing

against the Congressional Black Caucus and political correctness.  The

Congressional Black Caucus exists to blame the white man for everything. 

I`m happy to say that in public is it`s true.  Everyone knows it`s true. 

That`s the kind of thing that would be said on his you know, program.




HAYES:  These are public and consistent views.  This is not revealing a

thing about the man`s character of views.


CARUSONE:  That`s right.


HAYES:  Angelo Carusone, of course, all that could be found at Media

Matters Web site so you can listen, the full clips, get the full context as

all there.  Here talk about the pipeline between Fox News and the White

House, Karina Jean-Pierre, Spokesperson and chief public affairs officer

from and Waleed Shahid who is the Spokesperson for Justice



I thought this was interesting.  So when this broke over weekend – again,

this is not necessarily surprising stuff although the quotes about the

Iraqis make me like viscerally enrage because it`s disgusting bigotry.  The

– Don Jr. says, I think that @realDonaldTrump was willing to pave the way

in response to the refusal to apologize, the ritual acts of contrition.


He taught Conservatives just because the mob wants to take the law doesn`t

mean you have to.  He show conservative how to fight and win for the first

time in a long time.  Do you think something`s changed fundamentally in the

– in the discourse?



MOVEON.ORG:  No, I think this is when you`re looking at Fox – let me just

step back for a second.  There`s something that Angelo said that I thought

– that really rings true to me which is when you listen or you hear Tucker

Carlson on that radio show, he`s – it`s casual.  This is – this is

something that he`s totally comfortable.  When you see him on T.V., some

people might say oh, it`s an act.  That`s not really who he is.


HAYES:  No, it`s not an act.


JEAN-PIERRE:  And now you know it is not an act.  Anybody who thought it

was, it isn`t.  He says these things casually as if he`s comfortable.


HAYES:  Those are his views.


JEAN-PIERRE:  Those are his views.  This is who believes – who what he

believes.  Now, when it comes to Fox News, this is Fox News, right?  They

repeatedly we hear hosts, analysts, we hear reporters, are saying things

that are racist, homophobic, Islamophobic, and misogynist.  And this is who

they are.  And the reason why they do this it`s because it sells, because

they`re marketing to the people who are watching.


HAYES:  And because – I think also because it`s part of the political

process.  I mean, it`s both, right?


JEAN-PIERRE:  Right, right.  You`re right.  You`re right.



project is what`s interesting to me.  Obviously, I mean, hate crimes have

gone for the third time this year in this country.  The FBI has reported

that and anti-Muslim sentiment this country in 2017 in terms of hate crimes

was matched that right after 9/11.  So there` obviously like this

dehumanizing rhetoric does impact Muslims on a regular daily life aspect.


In terms of the marriage between Fox News in the Republican Party, the

Republican Party is a coalition of kind of white nationalism and corporate

greed.  And the thing that makes me sick about it is the fraudsters who

work at Fox News at the top – the highest levels of Fox News are the

people sitting at the top of America`s oligarchy.


And they`re the people who keep peddling out these conspiracy theories

about Muslims and black people being the ones to blame for our country`s

problems and they genuinely believe it.  And at the same time they`re

making millions of dollars of this –




HAYES:  One of the key things to understand about the Trump presidency in

this moment and this – the reason this tape I think is – actually I

thought, I was glad that Pirro said what she said insofar as she just said

what is the belief of many people at that networking in the conservative

movement which is that this woman with a job is obviously antithetical the

American Constitution.  Like just come out and say it.  Own your views. 

don`t pretend they`re otherwise.


But let me just say one thing about your point.  The – all that misogyny

and bigotry, it`s not an act.  Like the oligarchs and the president who sit

there getting their brain rotted by it, like that`s their belief system.


JEAN-PIERRE:  That their belief.  That is their true core if you will.  And

Pirro, the thing that`s interesting about Pirro is she didn`t ad-libbed



HAYES:  No, they got loaded in the prompter.


JEAN-PIERRE:  And she read it.  Somebody wrote that for her and presumably

an executive producer, a producer approve that language.  Look, this is

what Fox has done and they have been doing this before Donald Trump.  Let`s

be very, very clear, all the hatred that they spewed during the Obama



And this is just who they are.  Even Rupert Murdoch back in 2015 was

tweeting things that was Islamophobic and hateful and disgusting.  The

thing is they package this thing and they do it 24/7.  Lies, hate, and it`s

really just awful and disgusting.


HAYES:  They also – there`s a sort of vanguard part of it too, right?  So

they`re appealing to the base but we`ve seen like with the Green New Deal

for instance right?  This just full assault.  I mean, just –




HAYES:  Doesn`t really know about that angle of it.  But just you know, the

degree to which the White House and they are intertwined.  It`s sort of

indistinguishable.  There`s also a useful propagandistic role on these very

specific political elements.


SHAHID:  I mean, Trump introduced today billions of dollars of cuts to

Medicare.  Most of Fox News` viewers, I assume, are on Medicare and they`re

not going to be covering that because what they want you to see is the idea

of this new browning America, the AOCs, the Ilhan Omar`s of the world that

they`re the ones who want to – at the end of the day this is where the Fox

News executives come into play because at the end of the day, the reason

they`re peddling these conspiracy theories is just because they don`t want

people to vote to raise taxes on them to make sure that everyone in this

country has health care.


And that`s what`s so sad and sickening about Fox News is at the end of the

day the reason we can`t have nice things in America is because of the

people in the Republican Party and Fox News who are colluding to destroy

the social fabric of this country.


HAYES:  I saw someone note over the weekend that if you look at the intro

politics of Australia, England, in the U.S., they`re all a basket case in

sort of similar ways of this sort of like revanchist right-wing and that`s

where Rupert Murdoch made his bones in all three plays.


JEAN-PIERRE:  Exactly.  You would say that it is shameful but they have no

shame.  They feel no shame because like you said, it is their core.  This

is what they believe.  Look, and there`s also this really bizarre

relationship too, the sick relationship.  Like Donald Trump needs Fox and

Fox needs Donald Trump.


And the thing about it too is it`s yes, it`s a propaganda state T.V., Fox

News, and the problem is Donald Trump is only getting his information from

Fox News and that`s clearly the most powerful man, right?


HAYES:  He literally – that is literally how the president learns in the

world and it is like a classic example of they are using what they`re

dealing.  They all are, right?  There`s – like there`s no distinction

between the two, and the president is a consumer, an avid consumer.  His

view of the world as he`s proud to tell you is formed in real time by the

information that comes into him from folks who say that Iraqis for instance

are semi-illiterate primitive monkeys.  That`s their belief about the

world.  This is the man making American foreign policy.


SHAHID:  And Tucker Carlson was going to be this kind of rising

intellectual star of the Republican Party just ten or 15 years ago.  And

that tells you where the Republican Party is at in terms of the genuine

intellectualism of their ideas of kind of free-market economics and social

conservatism.  It`s all – it`s all a scam.


HAYES:  Yes.  It`s not an act.  They believe what they believe which the

important takeaway from this.  Karina Jean-Pierre and Waleed Shahid, thank

you both.  Next the Mar-a-Lago member, Trump donor, and massage parlor

magnate who is reportedly selling access to the president.  Who is Cindy

Yang and what in the name of God is happening as the President`s Golf

Resort next?




HAYES:  By now you probably seen photos of a certain Republican donor with

Donald Trump.  Her name is Cindy Yang.  And last week the Miami Herald

reported that she founded though no longer owns the Day Spa in Florida

where the owner of the New England Patriots football team Robert Kraft was

arrested for soliciting prostitution.  And that in a really bizarre twist,

she had attended a Super Bowl party this year with Kraft and his buddy

President Donald Trump at the President`s West Palm Beach Country Club.


The gang faces no charges in connection with Kraft`s arrest or the

trafficking probe, but more pictures of Yang soon surfaced with a variety

of notable Republicans.  And now Mother Jones reports that Yang might have

been selling access to the President to Chinese executives at Mar-a-Lago. 

The reporter who helped break that story David Corn, the Washington Bureau

Chief from Mother Jones joins me now.


All right, I should correct that.  She wasn`t at the party with Kraft

himself who was obviously at the Super Bowl but she was there with Donald

Trump.  And then there`s all these photos of proliferate of her with

everyone in Republican politics.  What is your reporting say about what her

latest gig has been?


DAVID CORN, MSNBC ANALYST:  Well, in addition to owning a chain of massage

parlors, she had what she called an investment company which was geared

towards Chinese clients.  Its main Web site was in Chinese and he talked

about giving advice to U.S. businesses that want to invest in China.


But the real thing it seemed to be doing was telling Chinese executives

that if you come to the United States, I can get you in to see people in

the Trump circle that the President himself, Trump`s family members, his

sister Elizabeth Trump Grau and also Elaine Chao the you know,

transportation secretary, Wilbur Ross the Commerce Secretary, and the Web

site is full of pictures of presumably her clients having meetings with

these people.


And you said in Mar-a-Lago that`s true but not just in Mar-a-Lago but in

events in Washington with cabinet members in fact, it says we can arrange

for you White House dinners and Capitol Hill dinners.  I mean, it`s

basically selling access to the Chinese and she has given over $50,000, she

and her family members to various Trump political groups.  So she paying,

you know, to get access.  It really smells like pay to play.


HAYES:  Well, so – and there`s pictures also like clients of hers, of

people actually having White House meetings.  Like substantive meetings in

the White House about issues.


CORN:  Well, with meeting with Elaine Chao and talks about going to an

event with Wilbur Ross.  We don`t know what happened at these meetings

where these just sort of meet and greets where they paid thousands of

dollars they get a picture.  They go back to China say hey, look who were

buddies with and that you should do business with us.


And then we reported yesterday and I should say I`m doing these stories

with my colleagues Dan Friedman and Dan Schulman, that she also has

connections to two groups that are directly linked to the Chinese

government and the Communist Party there.  So that raises all sorts of

other questions about what`s going on here.


HAYES:  Is she – I mean, part of – part of – one of the things we`ve

learned about the sort of swampiness of Mar-a-Lago is it basically like

anyone can kind of hit up the President with their favorite idea next to

the omelet bar and you know, you know, plant a bug in his ear.  We`ve got

this crazy – I mean in terms of like the efficacy of selling access to

this president, it`s not a crazy idea.


The ProPublica published this insane note from just some guy at Mar-a-Lago,

the dress dear king.  We had some idea about like dental reimbursement and

Trump is like send it on to the V.A.  Like you can get pretty close to this

guy if you pony up to be in this circle of cronies.


CORN:  And you can do it by getting a membership in the club and we don`t

have a lot of vetting of people who go there.  And it seems that you know,

you can pay this woman who owns these massage parlors and who makes

donations, sizable donations to the Republican Party and she`s somehow able

to exploit that and bring you right into Mar-a-Lago and get you photos with

the Trump kids, Donald and Eric, with Trump sister.


And on the Web site itself, again, in Chinese she markets, we can get you

in there on the next New Year`s Eve party at Mar-a-Lago.  We have an elite

forum that`s going on at Mar-a-Lago where you can meet Trump family

members.  It`s very, very brazen.  It`s nothing subtle at all about this. 

But it was done you know, catering to Chinese businesses that we know of at

least one that made a trip there and had this meeting and probably did so

through her services.


HAYES:  I want to bring in the reporter help break the Super Bowl party

story who`s Caitlin Ostroff of the Miami Herald who`s been doing great

reporting on her.  What do you learned about how how this woman has managed

to be so remarkably omnipresent in certain circles down in Florida?



million-dollar question.  So she went from being this massage parlor

founder and doing that for many years to all of a sudden having an

investment company and doing all sorts of other practices outside of being

a business owner.


And so the question is in a span of you know, a couple years, how did she

go from a relatively small donor to the Republican Party and to Republican

candidates to all of a sudden taking selfies with President Trump and

taking photos with Governor DeSantis and other high-ranking Republican



And so that`s not something we completely know the answer to.  There`s a

lot of ambiguity as to how she got those connections to get there.  But we

do know that she`s increasingly been giving money to candidates in the last

year or so.  And so that`s the question I think us and Mother Jones as well

are seeking the answer is you know, how did she go from that zero to 100.


HAYES:  Yes, I`ll follow up on that and I`ll come back to you, David. 

Something of the reporting of the Miami Herald also suggests and I don`t

think this is the biggest part of story at all, but since the original sort

of woe factor was that she founded the spa that Bob Kraft was busted at and

she was at a Super Bowl party watching Bob Kraft Patriots.


Your reporting suggested the spa`s that she was running back then when she

ran them were offering the kinds of services they are alleged to be

offering today.


OSTROFF:  Right.  And she was not brought up on any charges in the best of

Kraft.  But there`s been people who used to work there who alerted local

law enforcement agencies that did not press charges but there have been you

know, questions raised as to whether illicit activities, whether sexual

services have been offered at some of her parlors.


Former employee suffice questions there have been comments on Yelp of

people saying that you know, there – you have people been sent there and

they`ve been offered you know, sex or other sexual related services.  And

so that is certainly within question but she hasn`t been brought up on any

charges related to that.


HAYES:  David, there`s probably some sort of at this point some part of the

intelligence apparatus scrambling to kind of nail down what is known about

this individual given the fact that she`s hanging around Mar-a-Lago with

the president and selling access to him.


CORN:  Yes.  We go from sex, to pop, to national security implications.  If

she`s bringing in Chinese executives to meet the president or meet people

in his circle and this is known to the Chinese government or authorities,

you think they would want to piggyback on this.  And we know there`s very

little vetting when these sort of sessions happen at Mar-a-Largo.


And as we reported yesterday, we know that she works with two groups that

are out there promoting China`s top foreign policy priorities including the

reabsorption of Taiwan.  So there`s a lot to dig into here.  I mean, I hate

to say – I really hate to say this, Chris, but this is another

congressional investigation.  I mean, there`s so many already, it`s like

airplanes you know, on the runway.  You can`t get them all up into the air.


But if this had happened under the Obama administration, you know what

would be going on right now.


HAYES:  Yes, David Corn, it`s very true.  David Corn and Caitlin Ostroff,

great reporting both of you.  Thank you for being here.  Just ahead, a

surprise decision in the Democratic presidential field that Senator Sherrod

Brown of Ohio announces he will not run for president.  I`m going to ask

him why he decided to stay out next.




HAYES:  There are still a number of potential presidential candidates who

are considering entering the Democratic race, including, perhaps move

famously, Joe Biden, who is reportedly still mulling over his

decision, and Beto O`Rourke, who says he`ll have an announcement soon, and

today Stacey Abrams said that a 2020 presidential run is on the table.


When I hear that, I always wonder what exactly the period of contemplation

looks like and how someone makes the decision, one way or the other, to run

for president, because not everyone decides to do it, like, for instance,

Ohio Senator Sherrod Brown who toured the country on a dignity of work tour

while considering a run, and then announced he would not run last week.


How did he make that decision?  Well, Democratic Senator Sherrod Brown of

Ohio joins me now.


Senator, I`m really curious about this.  What goes into the calculation,

because you constantly hear reports about people, oh, they are talking to

their advisers and they`re talking to fundraisers and

they`re going out and talking to people.  What is in your head?  What did

you come to believe through

the process that led to your decision?


SEN. SHERROD BROWN, (D) OHIO:  Well as you know, Chris, I  haven`t had a

life long dream to be president.  I`ve known you a long time, you`ve never

heard me – nobody that I know has heard me talk about it as something I

wanted to do at some point in my life, and that began to change in November

or December when I saw that just – I just thought Democrats weren`t

talking to workers enough.  And we  don`t win – I don`t think we win in

the south, I don`t think we win in the Mountain

West or the Midwest if we don`t talk to workers better and listen to

workers better, and workers of all races.


And I announced on this show, on the Chris Hayes show, a couple of months

ago our dignity of work listening tour, and I underline listening because

we really spend time in each of the four early states – New Hampshire,

Iowa, South Carolina and Nevada listening to people, and this whole idea of

the dignity of work, we wanted this to become the narrative for other

candidates, and I consider it a victory in the sense that so many other

candidates now are talking about work, talking about the dignity of work –

if you love for your country, you fight for the people that make it work. 

And I`ve chosen to

DO that in the senate.


HAYES:  but why?


BROWN:  I think that I could have a loud voice there.


HAYES:  But at some point you were considering not doing that.  I mean, I

guess the question is like do you draw up a spreadsheet, do you make a like

pros and cons list?  Like what is the thing that tips one over when making

such a monumental decision.


BROWN:  I think it is the question of what are willing to go through, what

are you willing to put your family through.  I think that – I mean, sort

of the joyful way I try to do my job in the Senate, I didn`t feel that I

could do the presidential race quite the same way and be effective.  And so

the decision was – I know everybody gets to it differently. 


I think it is i don`t long to have the long to this huge desire to be

president of the United States.

I love my job in the Senate.  I think I`m effective.  I think that our

dignity of work narrative, partly because we started on this show, has

become a much bigger thing than it would have been.  So I – I just think

I`m ready to continue to do this in the Senate.


HAYES:  When you talk about that, I wonder, was there pressure – I mean,

you won this race – you were just re-elected in Ohio.  I think part of the

reason people talked about you as a possible presidential candidate was

because you have this record where you have been a fairly liberal senator,

if you look at voting records and things like that, in a state that has

gone increasingly – trended increasingly conservative and red.  You just

got re-elected.  You clearly have a connection with that state.  You are

able to sort of message your politics and connect to voters there.  Were

you getting any push-back from Chuck Schumer, anyone else, about if you

were to win this thing, we would be down a

seat in Ohio that we would have a real hard time replacing, because the

Republican governor would appoint your successor?


BROWN:  No.  I heard that literally from nobody.  I was questioned about it

by media but I – nobody said, hey – including people in Ohio, and

including Senate Democratic leadership, nobody said to me you can`t do this

I think partly because we would be glad in this time to trade a senate seat

for the presidency.  And I think that there is a recognition that if I were

the nominee, I would have perhaps the best chance to beat Trump.


But I think that if this dignity of work theme, if people learn to talk –

I want people to start – I want our candidates to start think about the

general election and how you`re going to win the general election, and if

they start talking to workers – of course we play to a progressive base. 

I take a back seat to nobody on my vote against the Iraq war and for

marriage equality and against NAFTA and against the bankruptcy bill and a

whole bunch of those issues as a progressive, but we have to talk

to workers.  If we do that, I predict if we do that right, I predict that

whoever raises her hand or his on

January 20th, 2020 – what year it would be, 2021, that they will talk

about the dignity of work  in her his inaugural speech.


HAYES:  Sharpen that, though, because it sounds to me like what you are

trying to say is you`re saying like, look, Democrats need to be thinking

about a way to talk to voters broadly and appeal broadly and you have an

experience where you are running in a place like Ohio where there is a

bunch of different constituencies and people of different political

leanings, and as opposed to what, like, what is the thing you are worried

the field has been doing or is going to do that you`re trying to provide an

antidote to that is bad?


BROWN:  I don`t say it is bad yet.  It might become that.  I don`t think

that our candidates are thinking of the general election, I think that

there is a bit of one bird flies off the telephone wire and five more birds

fly off the wire.  I just there is a little bit of that. 


I just want candidates to think for themselves and to move the country

forward and think

about the general election, and realize that even though I have a lifetime

F from the NRA, I get gun owners` votes in some significant number in

Zanesville and Nanceville (ph) and Lyme, Ohio, because I talk about

education and I talk about keeping their health care costs down and going

after the drug companies and how do you send your kid to community

colleges, to Zane State or to Rhode State (ph) in Lyme (ph), how do you do



And it really is – it is actually – this tour we did really was a

listening tour.  I wasn`t trying to get the biggest crowd.  I was listening

to people and I learned stuff.  One woman in Laconia, New

Hampshire, said you have got – who had run a childcare facility for years,

said you have got to think about childcare as a public good.  We invest in

transportation.  We invest in public parks.  We need to

invest in childcare.  And the irony of childcare is people can`t afford it

and then the workers that provide can`t make a living wage, so something is

wrong there.


HAYES:  All right, Sherrod Brown, it`s always a pleasure to have you on. 

Thanks for taking the time.


A witness in the Mueller investigation is caught in an apparent lie about a

2016 meeting in Trump Tower.  That incredible interview and the man who

exposed him ahead.


Plus, a special forensic investigation in Thing One, Thing Two next.




HAYES:  Thing One tonight, the Tim Apple moment just won`t go away for

Donald Trump, and that is because he will not let it go.  In case you`re

out of the country, let us refresh your memory about Trump`s moment with

Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple.




TRUMP:  We have so many companies coming in.  People like Tim, you`re

expanding all over and doing things that I really wanted to do right from

the beginning.  I used to say, Tim, you got to

start doing it over here and you really have.  I mean, you`ve really put a

big investment in our country.  We appreciate it very much Tim Apple.




HAYES:  Ah, yes, Tim Apple.


This is the thing Trump has been known to do.  Everyone was in his – maybe

because everyone in his family is named for the company they work for. 

Last march, he appeared with the CEO of Lockheed Martin Marilyn Hewson.




TRUMP:  Marilyn Lockheed, the leading woman`s business executive in this

country, according to many.




HAYES:  No, her name is not Marilyn Lockheed, she doesn`t have the last

name of the company she runs, that is not the way it works.


But the coverage of Tim Apple has apparently gotten under Trump`s skin.  At

Mar-a-Lago on Friday night with no cameras present Trump reportedly

explained to a group of donors what really happened in what the donors

described as one of Trump`s weirdest lies ever.


That is Thing Two in 60 seconds.




HAYES:  So after Donald Trump called Tim Cook, Tim Apple, and everybody has

a little chuckle over it, the president told a group of donors at Mar-a-

Lago this weekend, it never happened.  Axios reports Trump told the donors

that he actually said Tim Cook Apple, like, really fast and the Cook part

of the sentence was soft, but all you heard from the fake news he said was

Tim Apple.


Well, that makes perfect sense.  It is possible this lie worked on the

audience at Trump`s house of fancy golf and omelets, so just to be sure,

Thing One, Thing Two has done a forensic analysis of the video tape. 

Christian, enhance.




TRUMP:  We appreciate it very much Tim Apple.  Tim Apple.  Tim Apple.




HAYES:  Yeah, he said Tim Apple.


So the lie was so blatant that he came up with a new story this morning,

quote, at a recent round table meeting of business executive and long after

formally introducing Tim Cook of Apple, I referred to Tim plus Apple as Tim

Apple as an easy way to save time in words.  How is he still writing about 

this?  What is – this is why we elected him, to save time and words.  And

no president has ever saved

so many words.




TRUMP:  You know, I`m totally off script, right?


Darling is the wind blowing today?  I would like to watch television,



He asked Russia to go get the emails.


He`s bad.  He`s a bad, bad – he`s a bad, bad guy.


Hey, Don, how are you doing?  Hey, Donnie, I love you Donnie.


White hair?  See, I don`t have white hair.


Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia – Russia.




HAYES:  One of the stranger plot twists in the Trump era is the return of

Erik Prince, the brother of Education Secretary Betsy Devos and notorious

founder of the mercenary company once called Blackwater.  After

Blackwater`s involvement in killings of Iraqi civilians brought public

scrutiny, prince re-branded the company under different names and finally

sold it off relocating to the United Arab Emirates where he got close to

the ruling family and began a new venture, Frontier Services Group, which

marketed its security services to foreign states.


Then in 2016, he pops up hanging around Trump world.  During the

transition, after Trump was elected, Prince was part of an effort to set up

a meeting, meeting that actually happened, with the a Russian fund manager

in the Seychelles, which he has testified about to the House Intelligence

Committee, what the meeting was for kind of unclear. 


There was also a strange meeting during the campaign at trump Tower that

seems to have been forgotten about.  As The New York Times first reported

three months before the election, Donald Trump Jr. met with a Gulf State

emissary who was offering to help Donald Trump win the election.


Erik Prince, the private security contractor, former head of Blackwater,

arranged the meeting, which took place August 3, 2016 in Trump Tower.  Now,

apparently Prince didn`t tell the House Intel Committee about that meeting

in Trump Tower during the campaign.  And he was asked about his omission by

Mehdi Hassan on al Jazeera`s English show Head to Head.




MEHDI HASSAN, AL JAZEERA:  In November 2017, you told congress under oath

that you

played, quote, no official or really unofficial role in the Trump campaign,

what you didn`t tell congress is that on August 3, 2016 you were at a

meeting during the campaign at Trump Tower with Don Jr., Trump`s son, with

Steven Miller, then a campaign adviser to Trump, with George Nader, a

Backwater colleague of yours, who acts as a back channel to the Saudis,

Emirates, does happen to be a convicted

pedophile, and also Joel Zemel (ph) an Israeli expert on social media

manipulation, how come you didn`t mention that meeting to congress given it

is so relevant to their investigation?


PRINCE:  I did.  As part of the investigations, I certainly disclosed any

meetings, the very, very few I had.


HASSAN:  Not in the congressional testimony you gave to the House.  We went

through it, you didn`t mention anything about August 2016 meeting in Trump



They specifically ask you what context you have, and you didn`t answer



PRINCE:  I don`t believe I was ask that question.


HASSAN:  You were asked whether any form of communications or contact with

the campaign.  You said apart from writing papers, putting up yard signs,

no, that`s what you said.  I have got the transcript to the conversation



PRINCE:  Sure, I might have been – I think I was at Trump headquarters or

the campaign headquarters.


HASSAN:  Trump Tower, August 3, 2016.  You, an Israeli dude, a back channel

to the Emiratis and the Saudis, Don Jr., Steven Miller.


PRINCE:  We were there to talk about Iran policy.


HASSAN:  You were there to talk about Iran policy?  Don`t you think that`s

important to disclose to the House Intelligence Committee while you are

under oath?


PRINCE:  I did.


HASSAN:  You didn`t.  We just went through the testimony.  There is no

mention of the Trump

Tower in August 2016, why not?


PRINCE:  I don`t know if they got the transcript wrong.


HASSAN:  They got the transcript wrong?


PRINCE:  I don`t know.  I remember – I remember – certainly…


HASSAN:  I mean, this is a problem for you because we know that Robert

Mueller, he hasn`t been able to establish collusion yet, but he has got a

lot of guys for lying to the authorities and not

telling the whole truth, is that a problem now even if you accidentally

didn`t tell them that could come back and haunt you?


PRINCE:  I fully co-operated.  I haven`t heard from anybody in more than

nine months.




HAYES:  House Intel Chair Adam Schiff responds to that.  And I`ll talk with

Mehdi Hassan himself right after the break.  Don`t go anywhere.






PRINCE:  I think I was at Trump headquarters, or the campaign



HASSAN:  Trump Tower, August 3, 2016.  You, an Israeli dude, a back channel

to the Emiratis and the Saudis, Don Junior, Steven Miller.


PRINCE:  We were there to talk about Iran policy.


HASSAN:  You were there to talk about Iran policy?  Don`t you think that`s

something important to disclose to the House Intelligence Committee while

you`re under oath.


PRINCE:  I did.


HASSAN:  You didn`t.  We just went through the testimony, there`s no

mention of the Trump tower meeting on August 2016, why not?


PRINCE:  I don`t know if they got the transcript wrong.




HAYES:  So, Erik Prince is suggesting he didn`t lie to congress, House

Intel Chair Adam Schiff suggests otherwise.




CHUCK TODD, HOST, MEET THE PRESS:  Is Mr. Prince telling the truth, is your

transcript wrong?


REP. ADAM SCHIFF, (D) CALIFORNIA:  Well, he is certainly not telling the

truth in that interview.  There`s nothing wrong with our transcript.  There

was nothing wrong with the reporter who transcribed his testimony. 


Bob Mueller has that testimony already.  And Bob Mueller will have to make

the decision about whether that rises to the level of deliberate falsehood.




HAYES:  Joining me now is Mehdi Hassan, host of Al Jazeera English and

columnist with The Intercept.


It was a great interview, Mehdi, it`s getting appropriately lots of kudos. 

It`s very rare to find someone that caught as Erik Prince was.  How did you

notice that omission?


HASSAN:  I have a great team of producers and researchers who went through

every single page of that.  I wish I could say I went through every single

page of the House Intelligence Committee

testimony, but, you know, it`s something we wanted to talk to him about. 

He hadn`t really been pressed about his role in the meetings both in the

Seychelles and in 2017, and this Trump Tower meeting in 2016.  We really

wanted to get him in the record talking publicly about it, because he`s not


talking about it.  You saw his body language there, Chris.  He wasn`t happy

talking about it.


What is absurd is he has had all of this time to think of a defense and

came up with they got the transcript wrong.  I mean, come on.


HAYES:  Well, what`s also striking is just how weird this meeting is.  I

mean, sit back for a second.  That`s what I was really glad you – so, it`s

August.  Trump is the nominee.  You`re meeting with the candidate`s son at

Trump Tower with this very sketchy dude George Nader who is a back channel

to the Emiratis, like you said he`s been convicted of child molestation,

with this Israeli sort of social media guru dude.  Like what do we know

what that meeting was all about?


HASSAN:  Well, what was interesting is I didn`t get around to asking him

what it was about.  He volunteered that it was about Iran policy thinking

that that would be some sort of good answer.  That makes everything much

worse for him, because that`s a pretty consequential issue.


Why is Steven Miller and Donald Trump Junior, neither of whom last time I

checked, were experts on the Middle East or national security having a

private meeting with these emissary from the Emirati and Saudi governments,

George Nader, and this Israeli social media expert who runs firm full of

ex-Mossad types, and Erik Prince, a notorious former mercenary company guy.


It`s just a weird group of people talking about Iran.  And we know that the

Trump administration is very, very hawkish on Iran.  We know that the

Emiratis and the Saudis have wanted a conflict with Iran for a long time. 


And here is what is interesting, Chris, we talk about collusion with Russia

as if that was the only foreign government that wanted to see Trump elected

and got involved.  We know that the Gulf countries like Saudi Arabia, like

the Emirates, we know that Netanyahu were keen to see a Donald Trump

presidency not a Hillary Clinton presidency, and that`s why the Mueller

investigation is

so interesting, because he has looked at other issues, not just Russia. 

And this meeting is a classic

example of that.


Why is an emissary from the Saudi and UAE government coming to the Trump

Tower with a plan.  The New York Times has also reported, I believe – or

was it The Washington Post, I can`t remember which one, that Nader actually

brought a plan about destabilizing Iran using private contractors, which

was Prince`s specialism, of course.


HAYES:  And then there is a nexus, right.  So, you have this meeting and

then after the transition you have got a nexus, because Nader is again

involved in this crazy meeting that gets set up in the Seychelles that has

the security dude for the Emiratis who goes to the island with the Russian

hedge fund guy and Erik Prince.


HASSAN:  He`s not just a hedge fund guy, Chris, he`s the head of the

Russian Direct Investment Authority, very close to Putin, the Emiratis and

leaked emails referred him as the messenger to President Putin.  And I ask

Erik Prince why did you go to this meeting in the Seychelles?  He he goes,

oh, it was just an accident.  I had a beer with the guy, that`s it.


So, you flew half way around the world to a secret meeting in the

Seychelles with a close ally of

Vladimir Putin at the behest of the Emiratis to drink a beer?  Really? 

Come on.  These lies are absurd.


HAYES:  And there are many indications that meeting – so there is the

August 3 meeting.


HASSAN:  That`s nine days before the inauguration.


HAYES:  Nine days before the inauguration, then George Nader, who again –

this Nader figure has been pulled off a plane when it landed in the U.S. to

be questioned by Robert Mueller.


HASSAN:  Also a convicted pedophile, Chris.  Remember, Trump surrounds

himself with the best people.


HAYES:  So this guy, George Nader, like you said, Erik Prince, the

Seychelles meeting.  There is lots of evidence when you look at Michael

Flynn and trying to build a nuclear plant for the Saudis, there is lots of

evidence that foreign influence wasn`t just routing – that there was some

kind of weird triangulation, including the Saudis, the Emiratis, and the

Russians, who are all working various different angles.


HASSAN:  Yes.  And Flynn and Kushner meet with Kislyak, don`t forget, in

December 2016, and it`s reported that Flynn wants to go to the Seychelles,

or wherever it is, to have this meeting.  And he`s told you`re too high

profile, so that`s why Prince is now seen as the back channel.  Of course,

Prince denies this.  He says I just went for the beer, because apparently

you can only get beer with

Russian oligarchs in the Seychelles, and Flynn didn`t go.  But that is

where the Mueller investigation is looking, was Prince this – trying to be

this back channel?  Was Kirill Dmitriev, the Russian oligarch, was he the

Putin guy, and was Prince the Trump guy?  That`s the big question.


And, you know, somebody – I can`t remember which member of the House

Intelligence Committee told the press over the weekend that if he`s lied

about stuff like the transcript, how could you believe anything he said in

that intelligence committee testimony that he gave?  And I`ve talked to

members of the House Intelligence Committee who say reading that

transcript, that`s just half of it.  He body language, his demeanor, was

very defensive and not willing to, you know, even be honest in their view

from his body language.


HAYES:  Mehdi Hassan, thank you so much for joining us.


That is All In for this evening.  The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now. 

Good evening, Rachel.










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