Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES Date: December 11, 2018 Guest:
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: And that`s HARDBALL for now. "ALL IN" with Chris Hayes starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALI VELSHI, MSNBC ANCHOR: Tonight on ALL IN.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: We should not have a Trump shutdown. You have --
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Did you say Trump --
VELSHI: With impeachment talk swirling and indictments looming, the President faces the Democrats.
PELOSI: The fact is you do not have the votes in the House.
VELSHI: Tonight, the extraordinary showdown in the Oval Office.
TRUMP: If we don`t get what we want, one way or the other, whether it`s through you, through military, through anything you want to call, I will shut down the government.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: OK. That`s fair enough.
VELSHI: And how Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi put a real-time check on the President.
PELOSI: I didn`t want to in front of those people say you don`t know what you`re talking about.
VELSHI: Plus, all the President`s mess.
PAUL MANAFORT, FORMER CAMPAIGN MANAGER, TRUMP CAMPAIGN: That`s what I said, that`s obviously what our position is.
VELSHI: What we learned today about Paul Manafort, Michael Flynn, and Michael Cohen. And what happened when Google CEO went to Washington?
REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D), CALIFORNIA: Right now, if you google the word idiot under images, a picture of Donald Trump comes up.
VELSHI: ALL IN starts now.
LOFGREN: How would that happen?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: Good evening from New York, I`m Ali Velshi in for Chris Hayes. Tonight, the sights and sounds from a wild day in Washington as a newly empowered Democratic opposition confronts a flailing President of the United States. The future looks increasingly ominous for Donald Trump who is now reportedly privately feting about -- fretting about impeachment after prosecutors say he directed his former fixer to compare -- commit a pair -- a pair of felonies. And with the investigations ongoing, Axios reports that White House officials and key allies are increasingly aware of President Trump`s rising legal and political vulnerability.
No kidding, the stench of criminality might explain why Trump cannot seem to find someone to take what is supposed to be one of the most coveted jobs in Washington, the White House chief of staff. And as the walls start to close in on the President, the Democrats find themselves ascendant now on the cusp of their first real power in two years after delivering a humiliating and historic defeat to Trump and his party in the Midterm elections.
Now it`s against that backdrop that the likely incoming House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic leader in the Senate Chuck Schumer went to the Oval Office today to negotiate with Trump over a bill to fund the government and avert a shutdown on December 21st. Trump is insisting on $5 billion in funding for his mythical border wall which Democrats say is a non-starter. Besides isn`t Mexico going to pay for that wall?
Anyway, ahead of that meeting today, Trump got up early to tweet a series of lies including that Democrats do not want border security, they want open borders. The lies only continued once the President started talking.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Tremendous amounts of wall have already been built and a lot of -- a lot of wall when you include the renovation of existing fences and walls. So we`ve done a lot of work on the wall, a lot of wall is built, a lot of people don`t know that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: He`s right. A lot of people don`t know that because he made it up. Not an inch of what from his wall has been built, not one inch. The closest we`ve seen to a new wall has been the start of construction on what are called bollard barriers which are not yet complete. The George W. Bush administration erected bollard barriers too, so did the Obama administration. They called them fencing.
In reality, construction on a new section of border barrier has not yet begun and won`t this year. Trump also read statistics off notecards to support his wall claims which were devoid of context and effectively meaningless. After he finished his opening statement, he turned the floor over to Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer who immediately pushed back on the President and called out his lies as Mike Pence sat there with the mute button on.
I could tell you what happened. I actually really want to, but I`m not going to because you`ve got to see it for yourself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Nancy, would you like to say something?
PELOSI: Well, thank you, Mr. President, for the opportunity to meet with you so that we can work together in a bipartisan way to meet the needs of the American people.
I think the American people recognize that we must keep government open, that a shutdown is not worth anything, and that you should not have a Trump shutdown. You have the White House --
TRUMP: Did you say Trump --
PELOSI: A Trump shutdown. You have the White House --
TRUMP: I was going to call it a Pelosi shut down.
PELOSI: -- you have the Senate, you have the House of Representatives, you have the votes, you should pass it right now.
PELOSI: No, we don`t have the votes, Nancy, because, in the Senate, we need 60 votes and we don`t have it.
PELOSI: No, no, but in the House, you could bring it up right now, today.
TRUMP: Yes, but I can`t -- excuse me. But I can`t get it passed in the House if it`s not going to pass in the Senate. I don`t want to waste time.
PELOSI: Well, the fact is you can get it started that way.
TRUMP: The House we can get passed very easily, and we do.
PELOSI: OK, then do it. Then do it.
TRUMP: But the problem is the Senate, because we need ten Democrats to vote, and they won`t vote.
PELOSI: No, no, that`s not the point, Mr. President. The point is --
TRUMP: It`s sort of the point.
PELOSI: -- that there are equities to be weighed and we are here to have a conversation --
TRUMP: Correct.
PELOSI: -- in a careful way so I don`t think we should have a debate in front of the press on this. But the fact is, the House Republicans could bring up this bill, if they had the votes, immediately, and set the tone for what you want.
TRUMP: If we thought we were going to get it passed in the Senate, Nancy, we would do it immediately. We would get it passed very easily in the House.
PELOSI: No, that`s not the point. That`s not the point.
TRUMP: Nancy, I`d have it passed in two seconds. It doesn`t matter, though, because we can`t get it passed in the Senate because we need ten Democrat votes. That`s the problem.
PELOSI: Well, again, let us have our conversation --
TRUMP: That`s right.
PELOSI: -- and then we can meet with the press again. But the fact is, is that legislating -- which is what we do --
TRUMP: Right.
PELOSI: -- you begin, you make your point, you state your case, that`s what the House Republicans could do, if they had the votes. But there are no votes in the House, a majority of votes, for a wall no matter where you start.
SCHUMER: That is exactly right. You don`t have the votes in the House.
TRUMP: If I needed the votes for the wall in the House, I would have them -- in one session, it would be done.
PELOSI: Well, then go do it. Go do it.
TRUMP: It doesn`t help because we need ten Democrats in the Senate.
PELOSI: No, don`t put it on the Senate. Put it on the negotiation.
TRUMP: OK, let me ask you this. Just -- and we`re doing this in a very friendly manner. It doesn`t help for me to take a vote in the House, where I will win easily with the Republicans --
PELOSI: You will not win.
TRUMP: It doesn`t help to take that vote because I`m not going to get the vote of the Senate.
PELOSI: Well, don`t blame it on the Senate, Mr. President.
TRUMP: I need ten senators. That`s the problem.
PELOSI: Mr. President, you have the White House, you have the Senate --
TRUMP: I have the White House.
PELOSI: -- you have the House of Representatives.
TRUMP: The White House is done. And the House would give me the vote if I wanted it but I can`t because I need --
PELOSI: But you can`t -- you can`t --
TRUMP: Nancy, I need 10 votes from Chuck.
SCHUMER: All right, let me say something here.
PELOSI: Mr. President, let me -- let me just say one thing. The fact is you do not have the votes in the House.
TRUMP: Nancy, I do. And we need border security.
PELOSI: Well, let`s take the vote and we`ll find out.
TRUMP: Nancy, Nancy, we need border security. It`s very simple.
PELOSI: Of course, we do.
TRUMP: We need border security.
PELOSI: We do.
TRUMP: People are pouring into our country, including terrorists. We have terrorists. We caught 10 terrorists over the last very short period of time. Ten.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELSHI: OK, I guess you jump in here for a second. You say Trump say -- you heard Trump say we got ten terrorists over the last very short period of time. Ten. To be clear, "there is no public evidence that border authorities foiled ten terrorists recently." The White House, the FBI, Department of Homeland Security, all either did not respond to comment or did not offer information about which ten terrorists were caught to back up Trump`s claim. OK, now that I`ve sorted that out, let`s go back to the Oval Office and the scene there which somehow got even crazier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TRUMP: But we caught ten terrorists. These are people that were looking to do harm. We need the wall. We need -- more important than anything, we need border security, of which the wall is just a piece but it`s important. Chuck, did you want to say something?
SCHUMER: Yes. Here`s what I want to say. We have a lot of disagreements here. The Washington Post today gave you a whole lot of Pinocchios because they say you constantly misstate how much the wall is -- how much of the wall is built and how much is there. But that`s not the point here. We have a disagreement about the wall --
TRUMP: Well, the Washington Post --
SCHUMER: -- whether it`s effective or it isn`t. Not on border security, but on the wall. We do not want to shut down the government. You have called 20 times to shut down the government. You say, "I want to shut down the government." We don`t. We want to come to an agreement. If we can`t come to an agreement, we have solutions that will pass the House and Senate right now, and will not shut down the government and that`s what we`re urging you to do. Not threaten to shut down the government --
TRUMP: Chuck --
SCHUMER: -- because you --
TRUMP: You don`t want to shut down the government, Chuck.
SCHUMER: Let me just finish. Because you can`t get your way.
TRUMP: Because the last time you shut it down you got killed.
SCHUMER: Yes. Let me say something, Mr. President. You just say, "My way, or we`ll shut down the government." We have a proposal that Democrats and Republicans will support to do a C.R. that will not shut down the government. We urge you to take it.
TRUMP: And if it`s not good border security, I won`t take it.
SCHUMER: It is very good border security.
TRUMP: And if it`s not good border security, I won`t take it.
PELOSI: It`s actually what the border security you asked for.
SCHUMER: It`s what the border --
TRUMP: Because when you look at these numbers of the effectiveness of our border security, and when you look at the job that we`re doing with our military --
SCHUMER: You just said it is effective.
TRUMP: Can I be -- can I tell you something?
SCHUMER: Yes, you just said it`s effective.
TRUMP: Without a wall -- these are only areas where you have the walls.
SCHUMER: We want to do this --
TRUMP: Where you have walls, Chuck, it`s effective. Where you don`t have walls, it is not effective.
PELOSI: Wait a second. Let`s call a halt to this. Let`s call a halt to this. We`ve come in here as the first branch of government: Article I, the legislative branch. We`re coming in, in good faith, to negotiate with you about how we can keep the government open.
TRUMP: We`re going to keep it open --
PELOSI: The American -- the American --
TRUMP: -- if we have border security. If we don`t have border security, Chuck --
PELOSI: I`m with you.
TRUMP: -- we`re not going to keep it open.
PELOSI: I`m with you. We are going to have border security.
SCHUMER: And it`s the same border --
PELOSI: Effective border security.
SCHUMER: You`re bragging about what has been done.
TUMP: By us.
SCHUMER: We want to do the same thing we did last year, this year. That`s our proposal. If it`s good then, it`s good now, and it won`t shut down the government.
TRUMP: Chuck, we can build a much bigger section with more money.
SCHUMER: Let`s debate --
PELOSI: We have taken --
SCHUMER: Let`s debate in private.
PELOSI: We have taken this conversation --
SCHUMER: OK?
TRUMP: OK.
SENATE MINORITY LEADER SCHUMER: Yes, let`s debate in private.
PELOSI: -- to a place that is devoid, frankly, of fact. And we can dispel that.
TRUMP: We need border security. And I think we all agree that we need border security.
SCHUMER: Yes, we do.
TRUMP: Is that right?
SCHUMER: We do.
TRUMP: See? We get along. Thank you, everybody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, you say border security and the wall. Can you have border security without the wall?
TRUMP: No, you need the wall. The wall is a part of border security.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you re-defining what it means to have border security?
SCHUMER: Yes.
TRUMP: Yes. We need border security. The wall is a part of border security. You can`t have very good border security without the wall, no.
PELOSI: That`s simply not true. That is a political promise. Border security is a way to effectively honor our responsibilities.
SCHUMER: And the experts say you can do border security without a wall, which is wasteful and doesn`t solve the problem.
TRUMP: It totally solves the problem.
PELOSI: Again, but I don`t want to take this --
TRUMP: And it`s very important.
PELOSI: Unfortunately, this has spiraled downward from -- we came at a place to say, "How do we meet the needs of American people who have needs?" The economy has -- people are losing their jobs. The market is in a mood. Our members are already --
TRUMP: Well, we have the lowest unemployment that we`ve had in 50 years.
PELOSI: Sixty people of the Republican Party have lost -- are losing their offices now because of the transition. People are not -- the morale is not --
TRUMP: And we`ve gained in the Senate. Nancy, we`ve gained in the Senate.
PELOSI: The moral --
TRUMP: Excuse me, did we win the Senate? We won the Senate.
SCHUMER: When the President brags that he won North Dakota and Indiana, he`s in real trouble.
TRUMP: I did.
PELOSI: Let me say this.
TRUMP: We did win North Dakota.
PELOSI: This is the most unfortunate thing. We came in here in good faith, and we are entering into this kind of a discussion in the public view.
TRUMP: But it`s not bad, Nancy.
PELOSI: Let us -- no, but it`s --
TRUMP: It`s called transparency.
PELOSI: I know. But it`s not transparency when we`re not stipulating to a set of facts and when we wanted to have a debate with you about saying we`d confront some of these facts --
TRUMP: You know what? We need border security.
PELOSI: -- without saying to the public, this isn`t true.
TRUMP: That`s what we`re going to be talking about: border security. If we don`t have border security, we`ll shut down the government. This country needs border security.
PELOSI: We agree with that.
TRUMP: The wall is a part of border security. Let`s have a talk. We`re going to get the wall built and we`ve done a lot of wall already.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, how big a part of border security is the wall? Is that the --
TRUMP: It`s a big section. It`s a big part of it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it everything that you need?
TRUMP: It`s a big part of it. We need to have effective border security. We need a wall in certain parts -- no, not in all parts -- but in certain parts of a 2,000-mile border, we need a wall.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much money, Mr. President?
TRUUMP: We are doing it much under budget. We`re actually way under budget on the areas that we`ve renovated and areas that we`ve built. I would say if we got -- if we got $5 billion, we could do a tremendous chunk of wall.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that mandatory?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you accept less though? And are your guests conversely willing to offer more?
TRUMP: Well, we`re going to see. We`re going to see. Look, we have to have the wall. This isn`t a question. This is a national emergency. Drugs are pouring into our country. People with tremendous medical difficulty and medical problems are pouring in, and in many -- in many cases, it`s contagious. They`re pouring into our country. We have to have border security. We have to have a wall as part of border security.
And I don`t think we really disagree so much. I also know that, you know, Nancy is in a situation where it`s not easy for her to talk right now, and I understand that. And I fully understand that. We`re going to have a good discussion and we`re going to see what happens.
PELOSI: Mr. President --
TRUMP: But we have to have border security.
PELOSI: Mr. President, please don`t characterize the strength that I bring to this meeting as the Leader of the House Democrats who just won a big victory. But let me --
SCHUMER: Elections have consequences, Mr. President.
PELOSI: Let me just say --
TRUMP: That`s right. And that`s why the country is doing so well.
PELOSI: Let me say this. What the President is representing in terms of his cards over there are not factual. We have to have to an evidence-based conversation about what does work, what money has been spent, and how effective it is.
This isn`t about -- this is about the security of our country. We take an oath to protect and defend, and we don`t want to have that mischaracterized by anyone. And we are --
TRUMP: I agree with that.
PELOSI: -- that we are --
TRUMP: No, no I agree with that.
PELOSI: So let us have a conversation where we don`t have to contradict, in public, the statistics that you put forth but instead can have a conversation about what would really work and what the American people deserve from us at this uncertain time in their lives, where they have apprehension.
SCHUMER: The one thing I think we can agree on is we shouldn`t shut down the government over a dispute. And you want to shut it down. You keep talking about it.
TRUMP: I -- no, no, no, no, no. The last time, Chuck, you shut it down --
SCHUMER: No, no, no.
TRUMP: -- and then you opened it up very quickly.
SCHUMER: Twenty times -- twenty times.
TRUMP: And I don`t want to do what you did. But, Chuck --
SCHUMER: Twenty times you have called for, "I will shut down the government if I don`t get my wall." None of us have said --
TRUMP: You want to know something?
SCHUMER: You`ve said it.
TRUMP: OK, you want to put that on my --
SCHUMER: You said it.
TRUMP: I`ll take it.
SCHUMER: OK, good.
TRUMP: You know what I`ll say: Yes, if we don`t get what we want, one way or the other, whether it`s through you, through a military, through anything you want to call, I will shut down the government. Absolutely.
SCHUMER: OK, fair enough. We disagree.
TRUMP: And I am proud -- and I`ll tell you what --
SCHUMER: We disagree.
TRUMP: I am proud to shut down the government for border security, Chuck, because the people of this country don`t want criminals and people that have lots of problems and drugs pouring into our country. So I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I`m not going to blame you for it. The last time you shut it down, it didn`t work. I will take the mantle of shutting down.
PELOSI: That is (INAUDIBLE).
TRUMP: And I`m going to shut it down for border security.
SCHUMER: But we believe you shouldn`t shut it down.
TRUMP: OK. Thank you very much everybody. Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELSHI: Now, I have a whole rest of a show planned but if you want me to just play that again, tweet me and we`ll discuss that. And if you do watch it again, pay close attention to Vice-President Pence like he sat there through the whole thing like a rock, no responses. Joining me to digest what we have just watched former Republican Congressman David Jolly of Florida who has left the GOP and Democratic Strategist Karen Finney who was a Senior Advisor to Hillary Clinton`s Presidential Campaign. Welcome to both of you.
DAVID JOLLY, FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN: Thank you, Ali.
VELSHI: You just -- you never know what you`re going to get these days. At one moment in that discussion, I`ve watched it a few times now, Nancy Pelosi interrupts President Trump but says don`t characterize the strength that I bring to this meeting.
David Jolly, there are a lot of people in this country don`t like Nancy Pelosi for lots of reasons but she can do math and she can count votes. Something that Paul Ryan had difficulty with, John Boehner has difficulty with. That is one thing that see Pelosi does very well. She does bring strength to that meeting.
JOLLY: She does. And look, what Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer showed today in the Oval Office as they are smarter, they are more capable, they are more able politicians than Donald Trump. And as somebody who had questioned in the past whether or not Nancy Pelosi should again be the Speaker of the House, she owned it today. Welcome to the speakership, Madame Pelosi. She is going to be the next Speaker of the House without question.
But also what we saw today I think the country saw on display in the Oval Office is a first branch. The Article One branch that Nancy Pelosi referred to waking up. We have not seen that in two years and what we saw today honestly for everybody who fought heart and soul to try to get a change in Congress to bring accountability and actually just ask for divided government for more responsibility. We saw that on display today.
So to Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, look, they stood up to this president. But for every voter who worked very hard going into November 6th, congratulations. This was the day where you get to see the results of your hard work.
VELSHI: Karen, Nancy Pelosi is not going to be a thorn in Donald Trump`s side or a splinter under his fingernail, she`s going to be his worst nightmare if this is -- if this is day one. If this is the first meeting.
KAREN FINNEY, FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR TO HILLARY CLINTON`S PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Well that`s because the truth is a nightmare for Trump. I mean, the two things that I think were so important about what we saw today is number one, it`s true I agree with the former Congressman that they were -- they sort of outmaneuvered if you will, President Trump. But that`s because they went in there with the agenda of the American people.
They went in there very focused and they had been paying attention to what the election was all about. What was the majority of what Americans told us just a short time ago? There -- it was about health care, it was about jobs, it`s about this economy. And so they went in there very focused to have that conversation and it was clear that Trump was it focused on this political stunt. He was being you know, and Nancy also was -- Pelosi, as well as Schumer, have also made it clear they`re not going to sit there and just let him lie.
And some you know, Republicans have done that. They have you know you saw, I mean, one way is to do what the way -- what Pence did and just sit there and say nothing. We`ve seen other Republican members of Congress just stand there when he lies. And Pelosi and Schumer made it very clear that with them at the helm, they`re not -- we`re not going to get away with lying and you`re not going to get away with not listening to the American people.
I mean, let`s remember that 1.7 -- I believe it`s a billion dollars has already been allocated to the wall. And one of the things that President Trump lied about right there is one of the projects has already gone from a cost overrun of an estimated $445 million to over $780 million. So in addition to some of the things that you pointed out, Ali, that are untrue about the wall, it`s already faced and cost overruns and they haven`t even spent six percent of the money that`s already been allocated and he`s saying he`s going to shut down the government over that.
VELSHI: So David Jolly, the Washington Post introduced bottomless Pinocchios as a disruption description for John when he keeps making the same lies over and over again. And I can correct them and other people can fact check them and lots of people do. What does the President get out of that? Because the things he`s saying about the border wall and border security are provably untrue yet he says them. So are there some outlets to just report that are there members of the people in the base who just -- they don`t care. They`re going to listen to what he said despite the fact that it`s not true.
JOLLY: Look, those are -- there are those who will believe him regardless of what he says. But there are also those who will respond and they are among your low-intensity voters if you will. They care more about their family and their church and their workplace than they do politics. When Donald Trump says build a wall, secure the border, that actually works and we can`t overlook that.
There was a nuance today in the meeting between Schumer and Pelosi and Trump that I think Democrats would be wise to follow and it`s this. When Trump said hey, we`ve had a successful last year. Let`s just continue that. And Schumer said, OK, we`ll give you that. In budget parlance it`s called a continuing resolution for one year.
That means we`ll keep funding what you did for the last year but we`re not going to give you the $5 billion. That`s a very safe place for Democrats. Ali, I`ve been through 20 years of shutdowns. There are no winners and shutdowns. There are only losers. Democrats have lost in the past, Republicans have lost in the past. The safe space for Schumer and Democrats is to say let`s keep doing what we`ve done the last year Donald Trump.
FINNEY: Well, actually in this point -- in this point though, Schumer and Pelosi did give two offers to the president. Both of which would have included continuing resolutions and he refused. Instead he acted like a child and said no I`m going to shut it down. And so he -- I mean the other thing politically that they did accomplish whether they meant to or not, I mean at one point it seemed like Pelosi and Schumer were the ones trying to you know --
VELSHI: Shut down. Yes.
FINNEY: Shut it down and save this man from himself, and saved the country from having to see this embarrassing scene. But they did make that offer and he again said you know, shut it down, shut it down, that`s the you know, he made it very clear.
They made it very clear that they were going to -- let`s be honest about the numbers when we`re talking about what`s already been allocated for border security. And I think that`s something that Democrats agree we need to talk about. And money has been allocated for border security.
But if you`re going to say you`re going to shut down the government because you want more money when you`ve only spent six percent of what you`ve already been given and you`re going to sit there and lie, you`ve now got people who are going to and up to you and tell the truth to the American people and you`re not going to be able -- he`s just not going to be able to get away with you know, lying. Just because he has it written down on a little flashcard doesn`t make it true and people know that.
VELSHI: I counted five times. There may be more where Chuck Schumer Nancy Pelosi offered to have this conversation private or not do it in front of the cameras. The President demurred. David, great to see you. Karen, thank you for being here. Thanks to you both for helping me through this.
So the question is what`s the opening gambit when the newly empowered Democrats take power in 23 days. Incoming House Democratic Caucus Chair Hakeem Jeffries of New York joins me now. Congressman, good to see you. Welcome and congratulations on what is going to be your new job.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D), NEW YORK: Thanks so much then great to be with you.
VELSHI: What`s one of the Democrats have planned for when they take control of the House and the legislative power that comes with it. And the context of this is something Karen just said that Democrats won on the basis of conversations about health care, about jobs, about the economy, but the first thing we see is a fight about a shutdown and the border.
JEFFRIES: Well, the fight about the shutdown and the border falls squarely within the Republican complete control of government right now. They control the House the Senate and the presidency. Democrats don`t want to shut down. We want to fund the government so we can get about doing the business of the American people.
And what we`ve said in our conversations over the last several months in conversation with the country all across the nation is that we have a for the people agenda. We`re going to fight to lower health care costs, to strengthen the Affordable Care Act, to protect people with pre-existing conditions, to lower the high cost of prescription drugs, to increase pay for every day Americans, do a real infrastructure plan where we`re going to invest $1 trillion to create 16 million good-paying jobs, fix our nation`s crumbling bridges, roads tunnels airports, mass transportation system, and we`re going to work to clean up corruption in Washington D.C. to bring our democracy to life.
That`s our for the people agenda. Those are the promises that we`ve made to the American people. We plan on delivering upon those promises when we assume the gavel on January 3rd.
VELSHI: So let me ask you this. On Friday night we got all that information about Michael Cullen and Paul Manafort. Tonight perhaps we`re going to get some information on Michael Flynn. At some point, the mantle of impeachment hangs over this president. In fact, CNN yesterday was saying that Trump is concerned about being impeached and a source says he sees it as a real possibility. How do you confront that Representative?
JEFFRIES: Well, the House of Representatives is a separate and co-equal branch of government. We have an article one constitutional responsibility to serve as a check and balance on an out-of-control executive branch and we`ll take those oversight responsibilities seriously. At the same time, there`s an ongoing criminal investigation that`s take place and we have to allow that to play itself out to allow Bob Mueller to continue to conduct themselves in a way that has been professional, that has been highly focused that has been disciplined, and that is allowing the facts and the evidence to lead to whatever conclusions he eventually reaches.
We have to simply let Bob Mueller be Bob Mueller. When he completes his investigation, then we can allow him to report that to the Department of Justice, to Congress, to the American people and we can decide what if any appropriate actions need to be taken there after.
VELSHI: You heard David Jolly say nobody wins in the shutdown. He`s seen them on both sides. Donald Trump continues to insist he wants $5 billion for this wall he says is being built. That`s nowhere near where Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi want to go. Is there any circumstance you can see in which Democrats give more money for this border wall?
JEFFRIES: I don`t envision any circumstance where we allocate $5 billion or anything even close to that because there will be a waste of taxpayer dollars. And what we saw earlier today was a complete embarrassment. Donald Trump is a performance artist. Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer are serious legislators. He showed up clearly wanting to perform to put on a reality show for the American people. And Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer were there to get something done. And we continue to be here to get something done to fund the government. That`s our responsibility. Republicans right now have complete control of government.
They need to be the individuals to get it done. But we want to do it in a responsible fashion and if anything they need our votes in order to fund the government then we have to have a meeting of the minds in terms of our values. And I think it was Donald Trump who promised that Mexico was going to pay for this wall. So go negotiate with Mexico. Don`t waste billions of dollars of taxpayer money in order to build something that will not make our border more secure, it would be wasteful and we could be spending that money to improve the quality of life of working families middle-class folks, senior citizens, the poor the sick and the afflicted in our nation.
VELSHI: Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, good to see you. Thank you for joining me tonight.
JEFFRIES: Thank you so much.
VELSHI: Hi, we have breaking news. As the President defends the felonious hush money payments that his former lawyer made at his direction, the latest on Michael Cohen and Trump next.
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VELSHI: Breaking news tonight. In an Oval Office interview, Reuters asked President Trump about prosecutor`s assertions that many people in his inner circle had met or had business dealings with Russians. Here`s how he responded, quote, "the stuff you`re talking about is peanut stuff." He also tried to shift blame for the payments that Michael Cohen made to two women at his direction on the campaign trail, payments that federal prosecutors say were illegal, but the president told Reuters, quote, "number one, it wasn`t a campaign contribution. If it were, it`s only civil, and even if it`s only civil, there was no violation based on what we did, OK?"
But they made the payments and Trump`s personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, will find out his sentence for making them. He`s being sentenced for a felony, this thing that the president says isn`t a thing. He`s being sentenced for a felony, among other crimes, by the way.
While the special counsel says that Cohen has been helpful in their investigation, New York prosecutors, that`s the attorney -- the U.S. attorney`s office for the Southern District of New York -- say that he should serve a substantial prison term for failing to fully cooperate with authorities.
All right, there`s a lot here. Here to break it all down and a lot more is Ken Dilanian, NBC News intelligence and national security reporter.
Ken, this is kind of weird that we have to keep on discussing this. And I apologize for having you do this all the time, because we did this on Friday. We do it all the time. Trump says the payments were not illegal and even if they were made, they weren`t a campaign contribution. The United States government sees this differently.
KEN DILANIAN, NBC NEWS INTELLIGENCE AND NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: They do. And what`s curious about President Trump`s reaction today to this and his comments is that when he was first confronted and asked about these payments on Air Force One...
VELSHI: He said he didn`t know about them.
DILANIAN: Exactly. So that`s what some prosecutors would call consciousness of guilt. When you lie about something or cover something up, it`s usually evidence that you knew it was wrong. I mean, if he had just said from the beginning, yeah, of course we made these payments and they had nothing to do with the election, I have nothing to hide, that would be one thing, because that is a defense under the law, Ali.
And, you know, the only precedent for this, the only time the government ever brought a case like this was against former Senator Jon Edwards, who during his presidential campaign, or before his presidential campaign, wealthy benefactors of his paid off a mistress. And the government charged him with him felonies, saying that he had broken campaign finance laws on the same grounds, and he was acquitted. But the fact pattern there was much less compelling. The payments were made well before the election and the people who made the payments said, oh, this had nothing to do with the election.
In this case, Michael Cohen, the man who made the payment is saying, yes, this was actually designed to cover these alleged affairs up so that they wouldn`t come out right before Donald Trump was to stand before the voters.
VELSHI: And I know the rest of this, you can do in your sleep. And in fact, you may be sleeping as I ask you this, because you`ve done it so many times. Michael Cohen is going to be sentenced tomorrow. Michael Cohen -- there were two sentencing memos. One was from the special counsel`s office, Robert Mueller`s. It was seven pages long. Then there was another one that was 38 pages long from the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, which a lot of people may not make the distinction, but they`re two separate organizations. And the U.S. attorney says, he wasn`t all that cooperative and should serve a lot of jail time. We`re talking years.
DILANIAN: Well, so the probation department has recommended a sentence of three-and-a-half years. And the Southern District is giving him a little credit for cooperating, so they may shave a little time off of that. And the special counsel`s office, as far as they`re concerned, they`re not asking for any additional jail time.
So, this is really a tail of two filings, two separate parts of the Justice Department.
The special counsel, Robert Mueller, is -- appears to be rather pleased with the level of cooperation he got from Michael Cohen. Cohen revealed a lot about contacts with Russians. We still don`t know exactly what, but remember the dossier, that Christopher Steele dossier, says that Cohen was integrally involved in interacting with Russians in that election interference effort and trying to cover it up. That`s not confirmed, but if he`s talking to Mueller about that, that`s really interesting.
The Southern District on the other hand, says that he would not come clean with them about past criminal history. And they require punitive defendants, cooperators, to confess to everything.
Now, why wouldn`t he do that? Why would he face three-and-a-half years in jail? Perhaps there are things in his past that could have earned him more than three-and-a-half years. That would be a logical and compelling reason why he wouldn`t want to cooperate with prosecutors and come clean. But for whatever reason, he didn`t, and they`re going to ask for significant jail time.
VELSHI: So, a little bit of how the sausage is made here, Ken Dilanian, you don`t just sit in front of that camera so that we can come to you anytime we have a question. There was a reason we wanted you on the show tonight, and that was because we were fairly certain we would have a sentencing memo about Michael Flynn.
DILANIAN: Right. And we do not have it yet.
In the age of electronic filing, they have until midnight to file this document and it will go into pacer in the federal court and electronic system. And we`ll see it, it`ll come across my email when it`s available.
We don`t have it yet. And when we see it, we may not learn a lot from this Ali, because Flynn`s lawyers and the government essentially agree that Flynn cooperated sufficiently to earn a sentence of no jail time, no prison time. The special counsel, Robert Mueller, is happy with Flynn`s cooperation. And most of the document that Mueller filed, explaining to the judge why he was happy, unfortunately for us, was blacked out. So we don`t know the details.
VELSHI: So here`s the interesting -- the government doesn`t want a lot of jail time for him. Flynn`s lawyers get to respond with their sort of response, their take on it. Clearly, they`re going to ask for probably no jail time. And the upshot is that Michael Flynn probably won`t do much jail time at all.
DILANIAN: That`s right. And it seems like a pretty sweet deal, given the scope of potential criminal liability he was facing, based on the reporting that we and other organizations have done, you know, related to a plot to extradite a Turkish cleric or to kidnap, actually, related to his undisclosed lobbying for Turkey and lying to the FBI.
So, to do no prison time after all of that is a pretty good deal and we can assume that he, he talked and gave Robert Mueller quite a bit of interesting information.
VELSHI: All right. And I`m just checking through my emails. There has been no movement on the Michael Flynn stuff, but if there is, don`t go too far. We`re going to find you.
Ken Dilanian, thanks very much. Ken Dilanian is our national security and intelligence reporter.
Still ahead, how Nancy Pelosi proved she has the chops to lead the Democrats by taking on the president today. That`s coming up.
But first, tonight`s Thing One and Thing Two.
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VELSHI: Thing One tonight, you may have heard there was a hearing today in the capital with the CEO of Google called by House Republicans on the Judiciary Committee who have been looking into allegations of liberal bias online.
Now, it started out as most hearings do. Google CEO Sundar Pichai entered a packed room, ready to face the assembled congressmen and women. But as soon as Pichai took his seat, the Monopoly Man settled in right behind him, over his left shoulder, look at that. It`s actually an activist named Ian Madrigal who also appeared in a 2017 hearing on the Equifax data breach, and at Mark Zuckerberg`s senate hearing in April, that time dressed as a Russian troll.
The Monopoly Man put on quite a show over the course of the hearing, adding a monocle to the costume at one point, holding up a bag stuffed with fake money, and at one point he upgraded the mustache to a supersized mustache, and then the old four mustaches at the same time gag.
But the Monopoly Man was actually not the most cartoonish character at today`s hearing, no, that honor goes to most of the congress people asking the questions. That`s Thing Two in 60 seconds.
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VELSHI: If it wasn`t already obvious from the fact that they called a hearing in the first place that the congresspeople on the House judiciary committee really don`t know how the internet works, let alone how search engines work, it was made quite clear today by the questioning of the CEO of Google.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. STEVE CHABOT, (R) OHIO: I googled American Health Care Act and virtually every article was an attack on our bill, article after article alleging that our bill would result in millions and millions of people losing the great care that they were supposedly getting under Obamacare.
REP. STEVE KING, (R) IOWA: I have a 7-year-old granddaughter who picked up her phone before the election and she`s playing a little game, kind of game a kid would play, and up on there pops a picture of her grandfather. How does that show up on a 7-year-old`s iPhone who`s playing a kid`s game?
SUNDAR PICHAI, CEO, GOOGLE: Congressman, iPhone is made by a different company.
REP. ZOE LOFGREN, (R) CALIFORNIA: Right now, if you Google the word "idiot" under images, a picture of Donald Trump comes up. I just did that. How would that happen?
REP. LOUIE GOHMERT, (R) TEXAS: My chief of staff went on, she told me, every night for two weeks and put proper, honest information in with proper annotations and Wikipedia`s liberal editors around the world would knock it out every day, and instead put up a bunch of garbage.
REP. TED LIEU, (D) CALIFORNIA: Let me just conclude here by stating the obvious, if you want positive search results, do positive things. If you don`t want negative search results, don`t do negative things.
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VELSHI: Now while the president was busy picking a fight with congressional leaders in the Oval Office today, a familiar figure was right there, behind the throng of reporters, White House Chief of Staff John Kelly. And that tense smile on his face might have something to do with the fact that after Trump announced that Kelly would be leaving his post by the end of the year, the White House is apparently having a tough time finding a replacement.
When Mike Pence`s chief of staff turned down the job, there was reportedly no plan b. And according to The Washington Post, three members of Trump`s cabinet who have been discussed inside the West Wing as possible chiefs of staff each signaled on Monday they were not interested in the position, though you`d never know it from the president, who tweeted today that many, over ten, are vying for and wanting the White House chief of staff position, a position that he reiterated on camera this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: A lot of my friends of mine want it. A lot of people that Chuck and Nancy know very well want it. I think people you`d like. We have a lot of people who want the job, chief of staff. So, we`ll be seeing what happens very soon. We`re in no rush.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why no rush, Mr. president?
TRUMP: Why? Because we have a wonderful chief of staff right now. We are in no rush.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: No rush, even though his current chief of staff is meant to leave his post at the end of the year, a date the president himself announced without anybody asking him.
But as it becomes increasingly apparent that no one actually is lining up to replace John Kelly, the White House is starting to get pretty vague on when exactly Kelly`s leaving.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLYANNE CONWAY, WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: He will stay on the job through January 2, at least, and I think there will be a very peaceful and pragmatic transition to the next chief of staff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could he stay past the 2nd of January? Would that be something the president would want?
CONWAY: That`s up to the president and that`s up to the chief of staff, General John Kelly, certainly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI, (D) CALIFORNIA: We`re here to have a conversation.
TRUMP: Correct.
PELOSI: So I don`t think we should have a debate in front of the press on this. We came in here in good faith, and we are entering into this kind of a discussion in the public view.
TRUMP: But it`s not bad, Nancy, it`s called transparency.
PELSOI: I know. But it`s not transparency when we`re not stipulating to a set of facts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: Nancy Pelosi really tried hardest to stop Donald Trump from talking in front of cameras this morning, and afterwards she explained why.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PELOSI: I hear some of the reporters saying -- well, Fox reporters saying why did we not want transparency in this discussion. We don`t want to contradict the president when he was putting forth figures that had no reality to them, no basis in fact. We had to if we`re going to proceed in all of this have evidence- based, factual, truthful information about what works and what doesn`t. I didn`t want to in front of those people say "you don`t know what you`re talking about."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: All right, a little more than three weeks, House Democrats will vote for their next speaker. And today Nancy Pelosi acquitted herself in a way that should put to rest any argument about whether she is up to that task. On camera she made it clear the president can`t just have his border wall since the House controls the budget, and in January Democrats will control the House. And behind closed doors, she repeatedly made it clear what the wall really represents for Trump, quote, "it`s like a manhood thing for him, as if manhood could ever be associated with him. This wall thing."
To talk more about Nancy Pelosi`s leadership, I`m joined by Senator Barbara Boxer, Democrat from California, and Christina Greer, associate professor of political science at Fordham University. Thank you both for being here.
Senator Boxer, you know Nancy Pelosi well. It is interesting in 2018, there are still people who doubt her moxie, because most people should have been over that in about, I don`t know, 2003.
BARBARA BOXER, FORMER DEMORATIC SENATOR FROM CALIFORNIA: Yeah. I`ve known Nancy since the `80s, can you imagine. We served together in the house. I was there for 10 years before I went to the senate. She is such a pro.
And it occurs to me, because I`ve been behind these closed door meetings for so long that she knew that if we were serious, if she and the president and Chuck Schumer were serious, they could get to the bottom of these problems, but he wanted to set a trap, and he was nasty to her. He was nasty to Chuck.
And at the end of the day, he walked into the trap himself and people saw he was not prepared. He was nasty and just, again, a failure, a complete failure.
VELSHI: Christina, this is interesting, what Senator Boxer says. Because in fact, Nancy Pelosi is one of those few people in Washington whom if you get in a room and you try and come to a deal, you can make a deal with because she knows what she can bring in terms of votes. So, while we haven`t seen her in this role in the last few years,this should surprise no one. You could get a deal with Nancy Pelosi.
CHRISTINA GREER, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: Oh, definitely. Everyone always says Nancy Pelosi knows how to count. I, of course, keep telling my students this is Nancy del Assandro (ph) from Baltimore. Her father and her brother were both mayors of Baltimore. She is the only girl with five brothers.
I mean, she knows what she is doing. She has been in the job for a very long time. She respects the office. I think the best thing she said to the president today was, you know, Chuck and I are the first branch of government. And you can see he didn`t really understand what she was saying because it`s so obvious that this president has yet to read the constitution.
In Article I of the constitution, the framers lay out the legislative branch. It`s not until Article II of the constitution where they talk about the executive. So she`s essentially saying we are representing the American people. That who sent us forth, and you don`t have the votes. You had two years of unified government, that means President Trump, you controlled the House, the Senate and the presidency, and you didn`t get this done. Now you don`t have unified government, and I`m letting you know for a fact that you don`t have the votes.
So I mean the president unfortunately time and time again just walked into -- they`re not even traps they were setting for him, these were just facts that he walked into. We didn`t talk about Mexico paying for the wall. He said the wall is being built, we know that that`s not the case. He saying that people are bringing over diseases and, you know...
VELSHI: That`s remarkable. That`s good and old-fashioned, but it`s remarkable.
GREER: Well, if it works, it works. And clearly his base really does believe it. And so she is walking him through all the untruths, but she is also walking the American public through the facts.
And so she is trying to be respectful of the office because she actually understands her role and his role. The problem is the president doesn`t understand his role.
VELSHI: Senator Boxer, let`s talk a little bit about Nancy Pelosi. Her popularity is something that is remarkable, but there always are challenges. Nobody fielded a challenge this time, but there are people who suggested that she shouldn`t be the speaker. Her unfavorable ratings tend to be quite, high which is understandable given the role she has played in politics for a long time. There are a lot of Republicans who have campaigned on the basis that Nancy Pelosi should be the speaker because they think it`s good for Republicans.
After you look at what happened today, people can`t really be thinking that.
BOXER: No way. I mean, she, again, knows what she is doing. It`s not only that she can count votes, she knows the facts, and she sat there and she kept trying to get the president in a very calm way to dismiss the press and get to work. Instead, he kept throwing up things which were not true. Oh, we`re building so much of the wall. And Nancy just said we need to discuss the facts.
So she`s a great strategist.
And by the way, she pointed out that in this lame duck session, he still controls all the votes. She kept saying prove it to us. You keep saying you can get it through the House. By the way, he can`t. She knows that.
VELSHI: So, Christina, to what degree is this dangerous, though? Because this isn`t why you end up as the speaker of the House. This isn`t why you end up as one of the greatest vote counters and politicians of all time, to have it out in the Oval Office with Donald Trump. She needs to, in order to continue what she started this time around have a victory in two years. Can she fall into this trap of arguing with Donald T?
GREER: Well, I don`t think she`ll fall into that trap, because Nancy Pelosi has been in Washington, D.C. for far too long. She has never probably seen someone like this entity that we have in the presidency; however, Nancy Pelosi respects the job and I think we`ve seen already with how she`s sort of welcomed in these new legislators where she is understanding she is going to pass the baton in various ways, obviously the new diverse Democratic Party that`s coming in. She understands that in two years, the Democratic Party not only needs to control and contain the president, but they really need to set forth an agenda.
And, you know, Rahm Emanuel and Barack Obama got a lot of credit for Obamacare, we know that the underbelly of how that got done was Nancy del Assandro (ph) Pelosi.
VELSHI: Thank you to the two of you for helping us analyze this tonight. Barbara Boxer, former Senator from California, Christina Greer, thank you both.
And that is All In for this evening. I`m Ali Velshi. Thank you for hanging out with me the last few nights. Chris is going to be back here tomorrow night.
The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now.
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