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North Carolina Congressional election in turmoil amid. TRANSCRIPT: 12/4/18, All In w/ Chris Hayes

Guests: Amy Gardner

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  And there they were today, the living, the lost, both firmly in the American scroll of honor.  That`s HARDBALL for now.  "ALL IN" with Chris Hayes starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES:  Tonight on ALL IN.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  General Flynn is a wonderful man.

HAYES:  Mueller time for Michael Flynn.

TRUMP:  Well, I feel badly for General Flynn.

HAYES:  The sentencing memo for the man who led the chance --

MICHAEL FLYNN, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, UNITED STATES:  Yes, that`s right.  Lock her up.

HAYES:  Tonight, what we know about Michael Flynn`s cooperation with the Special Counsel and what it could tell us about what Mueller knows about Trump for the Russian.  Plus, Ben Wittes on how Robert Mueller is laying siege to the Trump presidency.  The election fraud scandal grows in North Carolina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  He was more like we need to get Mark Harris in here.

HAYES:  And as Republicans move to take power from Democrats in Wisconsin the same power grab moves forward in Michigan.

AMERICAN CROWD:  Hey, hey!  Ho, ho!  Lame duck has got to go! 

HAYES:  When ALL IN starts right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES:  Good evening from New York I`m Chris Hayes.  At this very hour, we are still awaiting Special Counsel Robert Mueller`s court filing on the sentencing of President Trump`s former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn.  Now, Mueller sentencing recommendation comes one year after Flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI and agreed to cooperate with Mueller and his investigation.  And today is filing or it will be tonight`s filing when and if it comes, is expected to give us a better idea of the extent to which Flynn has cooperated with that Russia investigation specifically what kind of information Flynn may have given them. 

Robert Mueller has delayed sentencing of Michael Flynn several times over the past year again and again and again and it`s led many at wonder if Flynn`s cooperation was indeed ongoing.  Meanwhile, you`ll remember, Trump`s former lawyer Michael Cohen has pleaded guilty to crimes in both the Southern District of New York`s investigation of campaign finance and tax violations and the special counsels Russia investigation.  That was just last week. 

Trump`s former campaign manager Paul Manafort after being convicted of financial crimes in federal court appears to have basically pretended to cooperate with Robert Mueller when he was actually relaying information to Trump`s lawyers.  Their cooperation agreement blew up and now he will face sentencing on Friday with Mueller expecting to also detail his "crimes and lies."  That`s the term that Mueller`s team uses.

And then there`s Michael Flynn.  Michael Flynn, the man who sat next to Russian President Vladimir Putin at the Russia television dinner in December 2015.  You see him there.  He was the one joining those lock her up chants at the RNC.  Michael Flynn who had to plead guilty because he lied to the FBI about his contacts with Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak during the transition. 

Later when his lies were uncovered and then acting Attorney General Sally Yates informed the Trump administration, went over in person to the White House with a warning to warn them that Flynn had indeed lied, and because he had lied could be vulnerable to Russian blackmails, the Russians knew he was lying, President Trump still waited 18 days to fire him.

What did Trump do?  Well, this is what he did.  On the same day that Sally Yates had a second meeting with White House Counsel Don McGann about Michael Flynn, again, concerned the man has been compromised, who`s going to be the National Security Adviser of the U.S., Trump set up a private White House dinner with then-FBI Director James Comey in which Comey says Trump asked for his loyalty.  And on the day after Trump finally fired Michael Flynn, he assured administration officials out of the Oval Office so he could speak to Comey alone.

According to James Comey, Trump told him "I hope you can see your way clear to letting Flynn go.  He is a good guy.  I hope you can let this go."  OK.  So as we wait for this filing, we`re left with some pretty major questions.  The first one.  Why did Michael Flynn lie about his communication with Kislyak, his phone calls, his interactions?  What he did itself calling the Russian ambassador on the day that sanctions came in wasn`t some massive infraction.  He was after all the incoming National Security Adviser for the new administration. 

The old administration out the door was imposing sanctions.  Flynn could have called the Russian ambassador`s say that while there`s one president at a time, come January 20th there will be a new policy and your government ambassador should consider that before responding.  He could have just told us he did that.  He could have forthrightly said that`s what he was doing.  There was no need to cover it up.  But he did cover up.  He lied about it to everyone. 

And then, did President-Elect Trump tell him to make those calls to Sergey Kislyak the Russian ambassador?  Did President Trump tell him to lie about it afterwards to cover it up?  And why did the President wait 18 whole days to fire him?  Why was the President so invested in possibly obstructing justice on behalf of Michael Flynn?  Let`s bring in two people have been waiting all day for Mueller`s memo on Flynn.  Ken Delanian, NBC News Investigative Reporter and MSNBC Legal Analyst Daniel Goldman, a former Federal Prosecutor in the Southern District of New York.

All right, Ken, you`ve been looking for this all day.  What is this document that we`re going to get today?  What is it?

KEN DILANIAN, NBC NEWS INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER:  This is a document that`s supposed to instruct the judge on what kind of sentence to pass on Mike Flynn.  It`s called the government sentencing memorandum in law.  Dan can correct me.  Something like that, right?  Close enough.  And the reason we`re all in such suspense about this is because we expect that it could answer some of the very questions you just outlined at a minimum.  Because in the past, when people have lied and been charged by Robert Mueller, these kinds of documents have laid out not only the nature of their lives but why they lied, their motive for lying, and in the circumstances around their lives. 

And so I think it`s very reasonable to expect that we`ll find out whether Donald Trump knew that my Flint had lied, whether he knew that Mike Flynn had gone out and talked to the Russian ambassador.  Remember, he said publicly that he didn`t know.  But he`s also said it would have been OK if he did it. 

HAYES:  He`s got a classic arguing the alternative and only the way Donald Trump says.  He has said, I didn`t tell him, but if I had I would have liked it.  In fact, he should have done it.  I think those are the three argues he gave at the press conference on the transition.  He said, no, I didn`t know about it but if he did it, it`s fine, and actually he should have done it. 

Let me ask you this Dan.  You`ve heard this term process crime.  It`s being bandied about by critics in the Mueller investigation and the President`s lawyer Rudy Giuliani which is basically you guys keep getting people on these processed crimes lying to someone, not the underlying bad act.  Based on what you know, and based on the available facts, do you think it`s the case that the only thing that Michael Flynn did wrong was lying to the FBI about calling Sergey Kislyak?

DAN GOLDMAN, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST:   No and it`s in some of his court documents that he was essentially lying -- lobbying for Turkey without registering as a lobbyist which Special Counsel charged Paul Manafort with.  So --

HAYES:  He got charged with that. 

GOLDMAN:  He absolutely got charged with it.  It is -- there are a couple of unusual things about this Michael Flynn sentencing memo and his sentencing in general.  Ordinarily, cooperating witnesses are sentenced after the case is done, after the investigation is done for two reasons.  One is that you want to them to be on the hook as cooperators in case they need to provide more information or testify and --

HAYES:  That latter party particularly crucial, right?  I mean, you want to make sure that if there`s a trial, you go to trial, you got to have the person go up the stand and say this is what happened.

GOLDMAN:  That`s right and the second is that you don`t want to be in a position where you run the risk of revealing information about an investigation that you don`t want to reveal.  Now, Michael Flynn is being sentenced now before the investigation has concluded so we`re in a bit of an unusual territory here and it`s hard to read the tea leaves to figure out exactly why.

I would expect that -- the other thing just to sort of frame it is his sentencing range is very low.  It`s similar in the sense of these false statements that others have had which is essentially zero to six months is what the guidelines are which the judge uses as the sort of default baseline starting point.  So he doesn`t have to do much to get probation which is the lowest sentence that he`s going to get.  So I`m not sure that we are going to get the bombshell information revealing a lot of the investigation from this memo because he doesn`t really need it.

HAYES:  Why -- let me follow up on that.  Was it unusual to you that he pleaded to something so small and then cooperated for so long?  Like there`s not that much on him, right?  The thing they`re holding over him which is what their sentence recommendation is on the thing he pleaded is not a huge thing.  It`s not like Paul Manafort who got just the book thrown at him.

GOLDMAN:  Right.

HAYES:  What do you make of that?

GOLDMAN:  I find it very interesting.  I had thought all along that this was a placeholder guilty plea.  That they wanted to lock in Michael Flynn as a cooperating witness and then down the road because of his position in the campaign, his contacts, what we knew about him, he was going to be included in further indictments or charges.  That is not what happened and it`s interesting to see whether some of his other conduct will be revealed in the sentencing memoranda because he hasn`t been charged with that. 

HAYES:  The other contact, Ken, which is pretty striking.   Two things here.  One is that he was working as an unregistered foreign agent for Turkey. 

DILANIAN:  Right.

HAYES:  I think to the tune of $500,000 while on the campaign including my favorite Michael Flynn -- my favorite Michael Flynn move on the day of the election, the Hill op-ed titled our allied Turkey is in crisis and needs our support arguing for the U.S. deportation of the dissident cleric Fethullah Gulen who is enemy number one of the Turkish government which was essentially what he`s being paid to advocate on election day which is a little bit of a red flag.

DILANIAN:  Clearly a man who did not think the Trump campaign was going to win the election.  And I remember --

HAYES:  It`s like my last monetizable day is the guy close to the guy who might be president, I got to get this op-ed in the Hill.  Not go vote for Donald Trump on election day, no.  Deport Fethullah Gulen.

DILANIAN:  And by the way, I covered that at the time and I called the Turkish businessman who was listed in lobbying records as having paid Flynn and then he lied to me and he said it was unrelated to the government of Turkey.  As it turned out, it was.

HAYES:  Really?

DILANIAN:  Yes.  And you know, and further, we`re -- you know, there were allegations.  Remember that he concocted a deal to be paid some $15 million to extradite, to kidnap, to somehow ferret Gulen back to Turkey.  We didn`t know whatever happened to that.

HAYES:  There was reporting that he and his son had a like Coen Brothers script-esque plan to go to the Poconos were Fethullah Gulen and extract the dude. 

DILANIAN:  And the former CIA Director Jim Woolsey was one of the people who blew the whistle on that according to him.

HAYES:  We should say there`s one other thing here.  Again, to just sort of what is hanging over his head as we anticipate this, evidence that he was trying to work this sort of triangle trade deal between Russia and the Saudis to build a nuclear plant with Russian backing in the Saudi Kingdom and then at the inauguration -- at the inauguration, then-National Security Adviser -- he has now become National Security Adviser Michael Flynn sent assurances to former business partners that the plan to build nuclear reactors across the Middle East was good to go.  The first thing he thinks of when Donald Trump takes his hand off the Bible is boom, deal closed.

DILANIAN:  And I believe was on the phone at the inauguration with his business partners.  And the other thing about this is there was talk that his son Mike Flynn Jr. was mixed up in all this --

HAYES:  Exposed.

DILANIAN:  And had some legal exposure and that as part of the deal that went away.  Now, Dan will tell you where he used to work in the Southern District of New York, they don`t do business that way, right?  They charge you with all the crimes in the beginning.  That`s not what happened here.

GOLDMAN:  That`s right.  And it works different districts in different ways but in the Southern District in general, I think primarily -- in most districts, as a cooperating witness, you must plead guilty to all the crimes that you committed.

HAYES:  Right, because part of the point is that you are on the record accepting responsibility for what you did. 

GOLDMAN:  And if you were to testify, you don`t want to be in a situation where either they say oh you got this deal or worse yet, you didn`t plead guilty to it yet, you`re going to admit to it and you take the Fifth. 

HAYES:  Right, yes.

GOLDMAN:  You know, that`s the real scenario.

HAYES:  Yes.  You also did these other crimes, by the way --

GOLDMAN:  You know, you mentioned a lot of the shady dealings that Michael Flynn had or at least suspect dealings and you talked a little bit about the process crimes.  The one thing that we will get from this memorandum is an explanation as to why Flynn`s lies matter to Mueller`s investigation. 

HAYES:  What is the materiality of that lie.

GOLDMAN:  That`s right.  And given that they were about sanctions and notably same with Michael Cohen`s plead last week which ultimately was about the Trump Tower Moscow but what was all -- what was predicated on that deal happening is the removal of sanctions --

HAYES:  Of a finance bank.

GOLDMAN:  Exactly.  So you`re starting now to see some of these pieces come together and maybe what we will see is how these sanctions relate back to the campaign.

HAYES:  Ken Dilanian and Dan Goldman, I know they`ll -- you will stay with us and come back when the Flynn memo comes out.  Thank you.  I might see you again.  For the further legal implications, I`m joined by MSNBC Legal Analyst Ben Wittes, Editor-in-Chief at Lawfare.  What do you make of Flynn`s position in all this Ben? 

BEN WITTES, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST:  Well, I think it`s one of the big mysteries of the whole thing.  You know, a bunch of the people who pled in the Mueller investigation, Papadopoulos Manafort, you know, we`ve had a huge amount of news about what they`ve been up to since their pleas.  And you know, partly because Mueller himself has complained about their activities.  And in the case of Flynn he pled and vanished off the face of the earth, right? 

And it`s been almost a year since his plea and we have really very little idea -- more than a year I think -- and we have very little idea what he`s told Mueller or what the nature of his cooperation has been.  And so I think it`s just one of the real wildcards and one of the reasons that people are so eagerly anticipating this memo is it`s the first real window that we have on to the answer to your question.

HAYES:  Yes, the point that Dan made there about the sort of what is the relevance of lying about this to the Mueller investigation seems crucial to me.  And we should -- we should remember that it`s already been reported there are e-mails that dispute the White House claim that Flynn acted independently when he was doing this, when he was talking to Kislyak.

E-mails couple with interviews and court documents show that Mr. Flynn was in fact in close touch with other senior members of the Trump transition team both before and after he spoke with Russian ambassador Sergei Kislyak about American sanctions against Russia including K.T. McFarland.  That seems to be a crucial unanswered question here even though we have some documentary evidence about where the directive came from.

WITTES:  Yes, I think that`s right.  I think the -- what one question is was he directed to lie under and why did he lie.  But another possibility is that this false statement is not the actual reason that Mueller is this -- was so interested in Flynn.  He`s interested in Flynn because of other things he may know and that that`s actually the body of his cooperation.  This lie was merely the low-hanging fruit leverage that he had that could - - that they could plead and that could, by the way, didn`t necessarily involve anything classified, right?  And so you could -- you could do it all in public in a way that maybe some other stuff was not doable in public.

HAYES:  And then there`s also the facts which of course we all know but I was just going back through it to remind myself this sort of facts about this, about Comey and the explicit, ask that the director of the FBI essentially drop a criminal inquiry to his associate.

WITTES:  Right.  So this is a really, really important point.  And if you think about the entire obstruction of justice investigation, what is the predicate offense for the obstruction of justice investigation, that is what`s the -- what`s the investigation -- the Justice that was being obstructed.  And the answer to that at least in part is the investigation of Mike Flynn.

HAYES:  Right.  And so, you know, that`s another big piece of the puzzle particularly if you believe that as I do that one of the other components of the Mueller investigation that we really haven`t heard anything from but has been very active is this obstruction component.

HAYES:  Say more on that.

WITTES:  Well, I mean, you know, it has been clear for a long time that there`s a very active obstruction investigation, and we`ve seen a lot of people including you know, Don McGahn spent a lot of hours of quality time with the you know, with the Special Counsel`s office and that was not about Russia collusion.  That stuff was about activity in the White House which is about -- you know, which is about the obstruction component.

Mueller has said absolutely nothing about what he`s found in the instruction component in contrast to the Russia stuff where we`ve had a series of indictments both on the Russian side of the ocean and on the U.S. side with respect to these false statements.  We know something about what they`ve found on the Russia side.  We know very little or near nothing about what they`ve found on the obstruction side.

HAYES:  All right, Ben Wittes, thank you for making some time tonight.

WITTES:  Thank you.

HAYES:  All right, don`t go anywhere.  We are on hot standby, hot standby - - nerve heard that term before, from the Michael Flynn sentencing memo which can come in at any moment.  We`ll be right back after this. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES:  Once again we are anticipating the Special Counsel sentencing memoir for Michael Flynn at any moment, but this is only one piece of what we expect to learn this week.  You`ll remember the Special Counsel is also expected to detail Paul Manafort`s crimes and lies on Friday and he`s scheduled to elaborate on Michael Cohen`s bad acts in a sentencing hearing next week.

Joining me now to provide their legal perspective, Glenn Kirschner former Federal Prosecutor and Barbara McQuade a former U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan, both are MSNBC Legal Analysts.  Before we get to Friday in Manafort, I want to just ask for your feedback on what Dan was saying before about some of the unusual aspects of the cooperation of Michael Flynn here, Barbara, in terms of what he is pleaded to in the sort of duration and now doing the sentencing recommendation before the case is over.  What do you -- what do you make of all that?

BARBARA MCQUADE, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST:  Well, I think it`s important to keep in mind that he did plead guilty about a year ago.  And so they`ve delayed this sentencing several times and no doubt they`ve reached a point where they feel like the sentencing is -- the cooperation is complete.  Ordinarily, you want to as Dan pointed out wait until a witness has testified if you`re going to ask him to testify so that you can maintain leverage over him and he has the incentive to continue to provide you with information to earn credit so to speak in reducing his sentence.

It tells me the fact that they`re ready to sentence him now means that his cooperation is over.  It suggests to me he`s likely not to testify but that he is provided as much information as he can and he potentially has lots of information to give about the role of high-level Trump officials in those conversations with Russians and why he was lying about those conversations I think could be very meaningful. 

HAYES:  Yes, Glenn, the key part about Flynn to Barbara`s point there is unlike Manafort and Cohen, he serves as an official capacity and crosses over from the campaign to the transition to the White House where Cohen and Manafort are sort of associate to the president but don`t have that official capacity.

GLENN KIRSCHNER, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST:  Yes, Chris, first of all, I agree with all of Barbara`s observations.  But when we kind of pull back and look at Flynn from 30,000 feet, I think the way the Mueller team has played him makes a lot of sense.  And here`s why.  First of all, we all know that we try to work our way from the bottom up.  The less significant players to the more significant players.  But let`s look at who Michael Flynn was.  I mean, he was the National Security Adviser for God`s sake.  And that`s -- in anybody`s book that`s a pretty big fish.

So I think the messaging that the Mueller team put out by saying, you know what, we`ve got the National Security Adviser talking dirty to the Russians on the phone and then lying about it to the Vice President and lying about it to Congress -- excuse me -- to the FBI.  We`re going to charge him with that and then we`re going to -- we`re going to remain mum on everything else that he is providing us.  I think that is some powerful messaging to everybody else out there that you know what, they better pay attention to what`s going on.  They better come in cooperate and cut their losses.

So with respect to that the memo that I think we`re all anxiously awaiting, Chris, you know I`ve filed hundreds of these memos in the 30 years I was a federal prosecutor and I see three distinct possibilities here.  One, Mueller may say very little because the sentence that Flynn is exposed to is only zero to six months.  Easy for us to say, it`s not a consequential sentence.  So, Mueller, I don`t think needs to say a lot to persuade the judge with respect to whatever sentence he`s asking for.  The second possibility is you may find a split memo, part of it public part of it under seal because it pertains to an ongoing aspect of the Mueller investigation.

The third and I think the most likely candidate here is we are going to get a full-blown very complete factual recitation of many of Flynn`s crimes.  Why, that`s going to be some more important messaging and trial with respect to what the investigation has.

HAYES:  You know, Glenn makes a good point there, Barbara, about the messaging of you know, if you lie to folks we will charge that will come after you and obviously the first to please have a not mistaken, Papadopoulos and Flynn are both pleas to that lying.  People didn`t really get the message because you`ve got everyone else lying down the chain including Michael Cohen lying to Congress and you`ve got people amending their statements and now you`ve got Manafort, and Manafort is someone who`s going to you know, his crimes and lies are going to be documented on Friday and he`s the one who`s been in some ways the most rogue during all this.

MCQUADE:  Yes, you know, I know there`s been some disparaging of these cases as mere processed crimes as if they are not serious crimes.  But if there`s one thing we`ve all learned, Robert Mueller certainly takes these processed crimes very seriously and sending a message that other people should too.  And there`s a good reason for that.  When people lie to investigators, it makes it harder to uncover the truth.  It delays an investigation.  Anyone who is complaining about the length of this investigation should look no further than the lies that are at the heart of it. 

And also when you`re talking about national security officials and dealing with foreign adversaries, the lies are incredibly consequential because not only are you facing potential criminal prosecution for lying, but then you also put yourself in that compromised situation.  That situation that Sally Yates talked about.  If the Russians know that you have lied publicly, they can use that as leverage against you to coerce you to cooperate with whatever they demand.  And so the stakes are very high and they`re very serious crimes.

HAYES:  Well, and Glenn, it`s not just -- right, so there`s a question about this -- how this makes it difficult to investigate but when we`re talking about the materiality of the lie of Michael Flynn, I mean it could be the case that all these people are lying all the time because they`re all innocent but they`re all liars and they can`t help but lie even though they`re innocent.  Or it could be the case they`re all lying to cover up fundamental underlying crimes they committed that they don`t want to get caught doing.

KIRSCHNER:  Yes.  It`s got to be the latter and not the former, Chris.  I think our common sense tells us that.  But you know, we`re all kind of puzzling a little bit over well, is this all that Michael Flynn is going to face and you know, I would suggest this is probably all he`s going to face by way of being charged with crimes but it would not at all surprised me if when Bob Mueller drops what I think we all sense is going to be a large overarching conspiracy indictment. 

You know, Michael Flynn may very well be one of the unindicted co- conspirators who`s in there for narrative purposes and to you know, show the reader of that indictment and ultimately a jury if it comes to that, how Michael Flynn`s piece fits in with everybody else`s piece.

HAYES:  All right Glenn Kirschner and Barbara McQuade, thank you both.  Stay close, hot standby continues.  We`ll get back to you as events warrant.  Coming up, as we wait for the Flynn memo, there`s another reported Mueller target in the news.  Roger Stone says he will plead the Fifth following the President, getting his back on Twitter.  Congressman Ted Lieu on that story ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES:  We continue to await the release of the Michael Flynn sentencing memo, which could happen at any minute.  We will bring you the news the moment it comes in.  I`ll probably be reading it on air, but there`s another story we wanted to make sure we got to tonight, because there are new developments in the North Carolina ninth district congressional race which as we said last night appears to be the site of the most blatant electoral fraud in recent memory conducted on behalf of the apparent winner Republican candidate.

CNN`s Jim Sciutto reports today that, quote, criminal investigation is now under way into voting irregularities in Bladen County, North Carolina, says local DA.  Th investigation was initially centered on the 2016 election cycle, but now includes the 2018 cycle as well.

Last night, we told you how the state board of elections has now twice refused to certify those election results in which the Republican appeared to win by 905 votes.

Local reporter Joe Bruno yesterday found a woman who said she was paid to collect absentee ballots in the race which is, we should note, against North Carolina law.  And the man who paid her to do that illegal thing, she said, was Lesley McCray Doughles (ph), a convicted felon, who was working for campaign of Republican Mark Harris.

Today, that same local reporter, Joe Bruno, has found a second woman who says McCray Doughles (ph) paid her illegally to get ballots.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I feel bad now that I know it wasn`t legal, but at the time I didn`t know.

JOE BRUNO, REPORTER:  Like Eason (ph), Kenlaw (ph) didn`t mail the ballots, she gave them to Doughles (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  And I don`t know what happened to them after that.  I know there were stacks of them on his desk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES:  Stacks of ballots on his desk.

Now the same state board that has refused to certify the election has started releasing some of the records in that election as a congressional seat hangs in the balance.

Michael Bitzer is a professor of political science at Catawaba College who has been blogging about this election at OldNorrthStatePolitics.com and Amy Gardener is a political reporter for The Washington Post who has been closely following this story.

Amy, let me start with you and the latest developments.  It seemed inevitable, we`d get some kind of criminal investigation at a certain point.  What do we know?

AMY GARDNER, THE WASHINGTON POST:  Well, what we know is that the Wade County District Attorney Lauren Freeman (ph) is investigating and the state bureau of investigation, which is sort of like the state police of North Carolina is also investigating. 

We know that a subpoena has been issued for the Mark Harris campaign and that another is on the way to his main campaign consultant, a company called Red Dome Group which hired Mccray Doughles (ph).  And, you know, the investigation is continuing.

And so I think more revelations will be coming every day right now.

HAYES:  I want to talk about, Michael, I want to talk about this man`s history, and the history of elections in Bladen County, this is from Dave Wasserman of the Cook Political Report, "in 2016 Doughles (ph) worked for Todd Johnson, who wins Bladen mail-in absentees 221 for 1 over his other two competitors, in the 2018 primary, Doughles (ph) works for Harris who wins Bladen mail-in absentee 437 to 17 over Pittinger."  He says that the blatantly obvious absentee mail.

It really does look like something`s going on here, huh?

MICHAL BITZER, PROFESSOR, CATAWABA COLLEGE:  The numbers just do not lie.  And the fact that 40 percent of Bladen County`s absentee mail ballot requests did not see a ballot returned indicates that something is up where the district average was only 24 percent non-return and the statewide numbers was 16 percent non-return.

HAYES:  So let me ask you a question about North Carolina law, it`s a little confusing to me.  We have documents from the state board of elections tonight that says this is a log of all the people requesting absentee ballots in the aforementioned Bladen County.  The signatures of McCray are highlighted.  He appears to have requested a total of 590 ballots.  How can he do that?

BITZER:  He can`t, because if you request a ballot, it must be the signature of the voter or an immediate family member -- mother, husband, wife, something of that nature.  The request form is very explicit.  It must be the signature of the voter or an immediate family member in order to get the ballot by mail-in purposes.

HAYES:  And yet he seems to have run this con for several election cycles.

BITZER:  And he has bragged about it actually to folks in the area and made his services known to any candidate that wanted to complete in Bladen County and potentially in other areas of the district and perhaps other counties in that same ninth congressional district.

HAYES:  Amy, a final question for you.  Right now the board of elections twice has said we`re not going to certify this.  The Republicans of North Carolina are saying, well, yes, we want criminal  investigation, but we won by 905 votes and you should seat the guy.  What happens next?

GARDNER:  Well, I think you already have seen Republicans tamp down their rhetoric accusing Democrats of trying to steal this election.

HAYES:  Yes.

GARDNER:  I think that they`re aware that now there could actually be enough votes involved in these irregularities to sway the outcome.  There are -- we now know that there are 3,400 ballots requested but not returned across the entire district, that`s an incredible number. 

I think the investigation goes in two directions, it goes beyond the bounds of Bladen to see how widespread these irregularities spread, and I think it goes up to see who knew what Mr. Doughles (ph) was doing, whether Mark Harris knew and whether the consultant...

HAYES:  Right, great call.  Michael Bitzer, Amy Gardner, thank you for your time.

Of course, as soon as we went to North Carolina, the Flynn memo came out.  Michael Flynn, sentencing memo, has been released by the special counsel`s office of Robert Mueller.  Of course, we`ve been waiting for this all day.  Michael Flynn very already pleaded guilty to one count of lying to the FBI, a recommended sentence of zero to six months for that crime. 

I`m getting it here.  And I have Dan Goldman here, who has been speed reading.  So far, as I look at it, let me just show this, there are some redacted portions to it.  But it also -- actually, here`s one, the defendant also provided useful information concerning -- redacted.  How much information do we have here, Dan?

DAN GOLDMAN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR:  Very little.  Very, very little.  This is the addendum that you`re referencing there which has been redacted.  And basically all of the information about the ongoing investigation is redacted.  It does include anything in public that would reveal anything that we don`t know already.

The main sentencing memo outlines in some detail his two sets of false statements relating to conversations he had with Russians about sanctions.  During the transition period, and also outlining the lies about his foreign lobbying for Turkey.

But, you know, given the anticipation that we all had about this, this is...

HAYES:  A lot is being...

GOLDMAN:  ...underwhelming.

HAYES:  Yes.  Although, let me say this, two things jump out at me here.  As part of his assistance with these investigations, the defendant participated in 19 interviews with the special counsel`s office where attorneys from other Department of Justice offices -- which is also interesting, not just SCO (ph) -- provided documents and communications.

That`s very significant cooperation.

KEN DILANIAN, MSNBC:  Absolutely, and substantial.  They used all the terms that you expect with fulsome cooperate.  He`s getting a downward departure in his already short zero to six month sentence.

But here`s the bottom line, if our viewers can see this, the good stuff is blacked out.

GOLDMAN:  Just to put in context, 19 meetings -- when I had cooperating witnesses, the only times I would meet 19 or more times with a cooperating witness was when we were preparing for trial.  That is a significant number of meetings.  We can reference the fact that Michael Cohen had seven meetings with the special counsel`s office.

19 meetings is a lot.  And so that is an indication that as -- you know, you don`t meet with somebody more and more and more if they don`t have more and more information to provide.

DILANIAN:  And I think what this underscores is Mike Flynn has been cooperating for a year in a black hole.

HAYES:  In a black hole, that`s right, nothing has popped out, nothing.

DILANIAN:  Mike Flynn`s lawyers don`t leak.  And I`m convinced the Trump team has no idea what he`s given the special counsel.

HAYES:  Let me also say this, the defendant has provided substantial assistance in a criminal investigation -- in a criminal investigation, that`s section a, all blacked out. 

But here`s an important point, and this is an obvious one.  But when you see it in writing, again,  it sort of strikes you. 

The defendant has also assisted with an SCO investigation concerning links or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump campaign.  That`s it.  Like that sentence is we are pursuing a criminal investigation into whether there was collusion between the pre- established conspiracy directed by Vladimir Putin on behalf of a hostile foreign adversary to subvert an American election in illegal fashion, was coordinated with associates of the current president of the United States, that is the meat of the inquiry we are undertaking, and this man has cooperated with it.

DILANIAN:  And they`ve also said that was the investigation, but obviously they haven`t ruled it out.  They`re still investigating and they`re saying he has helped us with that investigation.

GOLDMAN:  We knew this from the Jerome Corsi documents.  I mean, this is not a bombshell surprise.  I think the takeaways here are that they also indicate that they understand that his full cooperation will not be realized, because the investigation is ongoing.  But nonetheless they feel like there`s sufficient cooperation to have him sentenced at this time.

We were talking about that at the top of the show, that the timing of this is unusual, but because the guideline range of zero to six months is so low he doesn`t need a lot of cooperation to get the probation sentence.

The other thing that`s interesting is I`m certain he is going to be required to continue his cooperation following sentencing.  So that is, I believe, part of his plea agreement and something that he likely would have agreed to do.

HAYES:  What do you think this says to us about where Mueller is at?

DILANIAN:  I`ve believed for a while that we are not very close to the end.  We may be at the beginning of the end, but I think there`s some time to go.  And I think this underscores that.

HAYES:  Yeah, because if there was a big like, hey, here`s everything we know, that is an indication of where he is in the trajectory.

DILANIAN:  There are some sensitive matters that obviously they don`t want revealed to the targets and the witnesses and the public that they`re still pursuing.  And, you know, look, we know that Rick Gates is still cooperating and has a status conference in January.  We know that Roger Stone and Jerome Corsi may be indicted, and if that happens, that will have to play out for several months.

So, I think we`re looking at another six months at a minimum here.

HAYES:  Barbara McQuade and Glenn Kirschner, who have been on hot standby with us.

Barbara, not a lot of information here.  What what conclusions do you draw on that same question I ask Ken about what the indications are of the fact that they have redacted massive portions of it, there is no detail about what they are learning in this particular document?

BARBARA MCQUADE, U.S. ATTORNEY:  Yeah, in some ways, you know, after waiting so long it`s a little bit unsatisfying to see just a lot of black lines on a page, but what that tells me is he has told them some very significant facts.  They relate to the investigation into links between Russia and the Trump campaign, and they are secret, they want to keep it secret because they`re still investigating those things.

I think that`s some fairly significant news.  And so I think it means that they`re finding productive information, and that some people above Michael Flynn in the food chain are in trouble.

HAYES:  Glenn?

GLEN KIRSCHNER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR:  Yeah, so Chris I was just reading one sentence, and it says the defendant and the government agree that sentencing at this time is nonetheless appropriate because sufficient information is available to allow the court to determine the import of the defendant`s assistance in his sentence.

And I think what that tells me is that even though the national security adviser pled guilty to lying to an FBI investigation, and we all know an aggravating factor is he lied to the vice president as well about these, you know, sort of covert conversations with Russians, that he gave so much information to the investigation that it actually warrants the government requesting a sentence of zero  incarceration.

I mean, it doesn`t get any more lenient than zero incarceration, which suggests to me that, you know, he really has been giving, over the course of 19 interviews, some very significant and probably damaging information.

HAYES:  Dan?

DILANIAN:  The other thing that was sort of an open question is how much Mueller was going to include in this sentencing memorandum.  This is a by the book sentencing memorandum at this point where you would not reveal any information about an ongoing investigation.  You would -- you wouldn`t do that for a variety of reasons. But because of the constant and repeated attacks on him, there  was some speculation that maybe he would use this court filing to respond to those attacks, which have been no collusion, no collusion, no collusion and use this as an opportunity to explain some of the evidence of collusion to respond.

And like Bob Mueller is, as a diligent, dedicated by the book prosecutor he has resisted that temptation and he has not done that here.

GOLDMAN:  A rule-bound Marine combat leader, this is his personality is to do it by the book, as you would expect.

HAYES:  Although we should note, right, today was the Flynn sentencing memo.  And there was no -- there was no promise or tip-off from them about what would be in it, other than parts of it would be public.  They did a rare on the record statement from the spokesperson for that office.

Friday`s filing, which is about Paul Manafort, they have said we will lay out the lies and crimes of Paul Manafort in that document.  What do we make -- given what we have here and the redactions we have here and the sort of keeping things in the black box, what do we make?

DILANIAN:  Here`s the thing about that.  If Paul Manafort`s crimes and lies pertain to the really interesting part of the investigation, then we may learn a lot.  If it was about interactions with Donald Trump and collusion with Russia, but what if it was about he stashed money abroad or he lied about interactions with Konstantin Kilimnik, then it might not be  a very illuminating documents

HAYES:  I guess my other question for you, Dan, and I`ll come to you Glenn and Barbara for you to weigh in on this as well, but can you imagine a world in which that memo is largely redacted as well or parts of it filed under seal and parts of it are filed under publicly with the same rationale of keeping things in the box.

GOLDMAN:  I don`t see any reason why he would not do that.  If that`s how he`s going to handle this I would expect that anything about the ongoing investigation that has not been revealed publicly would be redacted or filed under seal.

HAYES:  You know, part of what`s so strange, Barbara, about this particular -- watching this unfold is that most criminal inquiries are not criminal inquiries into the president and his associates, most of them don`t have to do with the president and his associates, at least still in the America, the majority don`t.  And I think it`s so strange because we`re in a strange democratic situation in which it is of pressing public import to know what the president and his associates did, but it`s also part of the kind  of process of this sort of prosecution that you do not reveal what`s going on.

MCQUADE:  Yeah.  But one thing that`s important to remember is when documents are sealed they`re rarely sealed forever.  And so they will be sealed, this Flynn sentencing memorandum, as long as it`s necessary to protect the integrity of the investigation.

To get a sealed document you actually have to file a motion with the court and ask for permission to seal it, even with a redaction like this.  And if a court doesn`t find a legitimate law enforcement reason for it to be sealed the court will order it to be unsealed.  So, at some point when the case reaches its resolution, all that stuff will be disclosed.  Even the Manafort document to be filed on Friday, I think there`s a good chance much of that will be either redacted or filed under seal, because remember in the plea agreement it says that the government retains sole discretion to decide whether Manafort has breached his plea agreement, that is not a matter they need to litigate with the court.

And so they don`t owe the court detail other than fact they`ve promised to detail some of the crimes and lies in there. 

So, I imagine that one could also be heavily redacted as this one is.

HAYES:  I want you all to stick around, and I want to bring in Congressman Ted Lieu of California, a member of the House Judiciary Committee.

Congressman, I don`t know if you`ve seen this document but want I do want to talk to you is this, this is a document that is a cooperating witness, someone who has met 19 times and given truthful information according to the special counsel`s office.  There are other people who are not cooperating.  Roger Stone is one of them.  Roger Stone today pleading the fifth kind of out of nowhere in response to a request from Dianne Feinstein in the Senate Judiciary.  What do you make of that?  And what do you think that signals about the president`s manipulation or influence on potential witnesses?

REP. TED LIEU, (D) CALIFORNIA:  Thank you, Chris, for your question.  Let me first say I have two takeaways from the Flynn sentencing memo.  The first is I believe Robert Mueller is signaling to other defendants or potential defendants that if you cooperate with the special counsel`s  office they will work with you and they will be lenient, in this case recommending no prison time is extremely lenient.

And second, I believe Robert Mueller feels his job is secure, otherwise, I think he would have laid out a lot more.  I believe that he believes that his job is secure, that`s why he`s not detailing very much information.  And now when you turn to Roger Stone...

HAYES:  Wait, stop right there, if you don`t mind congressman, elaborate on that.  What do you mean by -- to Dan`s point about needing to essentially publicly justify the continued inquiry?

LIEU:  That`s correct.  If Robert Mueller thought that he was going to get fired I think he would have laid out a very lengthy sentencing memo detailing the several ongoing investigations and what Michael Flynn may have said about those investigations.  He didn`t do that.  He largely blacked out most of the information, and that tells me that Robert Mueller is continuing with these investigations.  He doesn`t want to reveal any information he doesn`t have to, because he believes he`ll still remain on the job and see the investigations through their completion.

HAYES:  All right, now the question of Roger Stone, because it relates to Michael Flynn who is a cooperating witness, the president essentially tweeting the other day, sort of transparently about the weak snitch that rolled over on him and the strong and gutsy Roger Stone who`s staying strong and Roger Stone then, sort of, almost as if on cue with this bizarre declaration, he`s pleading the fifth rather than turn over some documents to the Senate.

LIEU:  So, as a former prosecutor, I can tell you every person invoke the fifth amendment in legal proceedings, but you can also waive that right if you talk about the very issues upon which you are asserting your fifth amendment protection.

In this case, Roger Stone went on numerous public appearances, talked about Russia, talked about WikiLeaks, denied his own culpability.  I believe a good case can be made that he has waived his fifth amendment rights.  And in addition, the fifth amendment generally protects against testimony, not against documents.

HAYES:  Document production.

LIEU:  So, I still has to produce a lot of these documents as well.

HAYES:  It`s also weird because it`s a request from the minority, it`s not an actual subpoena. It does seem more like Roger Stone performing a certain kind of recalcitrance for perhaps an audience of one at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Glenn, let me ask you this, because the congressman just mentioned this, hanging over this, of course, is the context of the fact that we have an acting attorney general of the United States Mr. Whitaker who is I think in a very strange position. He is the subject, if I`m not mistaken, four lawsuits, that say he is not the rightful attorney general of the United States. He is unprecedented in being elevated to that position and for serving as long as he has.

And there`s concerned that`s he`s put there essentially as a crony to either spy on, squeeze or terminate the Mueller investigation.  Are there any conclusions you can draw from what Congressman Lieu was saying, what Dan Goldman was saying about that.

KIRSCHNER:  I very much like Congressman Lieu`s take on this, that it`s an indication that Bob Mueller believes his job is secure.

I will say, Chris, that I in part learned how to be a federal prosecutor from working with Bob Mueller shoulder to shoulder for two years at the U.S. attorney`s office in D.C.  I think Bob Mueller is not even impacted by all the white noise going on around him, with respect to the appointment of  Whitaker. It may impact who he is briefing day to day.  I don`t know that we`re entirely sure that acting attorney general Whitaker is involved as opposed to Mr. Rosenstein in the day to day supervision.

But I think Bob Mueller keeps his head down, keeps his team focused, ignores the white noise and continues to move forward in the way he thinks best.

HAYES:  Ben Wittes is still with us.  And Ben, I haven`t gotten a chance to get your reaction to this document, which I imagine you`ve gotten a chance to read.  What do you think?

WITTES:  Well it`s a bit of a snoozer from a substantive point of view...

HAYES:  I`ve got a cable news show to run here, buddy.

WITTES:  But you didn`t let me get to the but in the sentence.

HAYES:  OK, OK, please.

WITTES:  But what is not in there is really significant.  So, with the other, you know, guys who Mueller has filed sentencing memos around, there`s a lot of stuff about how George Papadopoulos didn`t cooperate, didn`t provide substantial assistance.  We`re going to get a memo at the end of the week about how Manafort breached the agreement.  Here, there`s none of that. There`s he provided substantial assistance. He met with us a lot of times.  He`s, you know -- and the subtext of that is, we got from him what we need.  And we are getting from him the cooperation that we need.

And that means Bob Mueller is saying at least as regards this guy, the investigation is completely on track. I`m not telling you where it`s going today, I`m not telling you what we`ve actually figured out., but I`m telling you everything we need from this guy we got, and that`s a big deal.

HAYES: And we should note, as you say that, Ken, Michael Flynn`s son, who`s fairly public, has been striking a lot of anti-Mueller notes.  He tweets about the deep state.  He got -- there are reasons to think that maybe Michael Flynn would go down the road of George Papadopoulos who has tried to sort of extract himself from his plea deal and basically says he was set up now.  Manafort, who cooperated, and didn`t cooperate well.

To Ben`s point, despite that public profile of particularly people close to Flynn casting some aspersions on this enterprise, what this document says that in what he was doing in that room, he has not -- he has been cooperating.

DILANIAN: I think he`s got a good lawyer who`s not very sympathetic to Donald Trump, for one thing.  I think when he made a statement about cooperating, remember, it was a very contrite statement.  He said it was time to do the right thing for his family and get on the right side of history, something to that effect.

So,I think he`s not in a place of Manafort or Papadopoulos or even his son.

I just want to go back to one thing on Whitaker.  You know,we`ve been reporting -- I don`t think it`s broken through, Nicolle Wallace first reported that Matthew Whitaker is not in the day to day charge of this investigation, Rod Rosenstein is still making the day to day supervisory decision to the extent that there are any. 

The Justice Department has not pushed back on that.  What they have said is that Whitaker hasn`t recused.  He`s nominally in charge.  But I don`t think he wants any part of this.

HAYES:  Right.  I mean, that`s sort of -- and by the way, do we have no idea what`s redacted here, right.  I mean, it`s redacted for a reason.

DILANIAN:  We don`t know the substance of it, but all we can see is how much of the information is actually redacted.  And ordinarily in these -- right, but how many pages of this -- and ordinarily in these types of memos, and I`ve written many of them, you don`t go into pages and pages of detail.  It doesn`t read like an indictment.  It is sort of conclusory summary fashion, explanation, as to what information they`ve provided against whom, maybe why it`s relevant, why it`s important, but this to me reads like pretty significant information that of course because it`s redacted we don`t know and that is intentional.

There is a lot here that Mueller has and is dealing with, a lot of evidence, a lot of testimony from Michael Flynn that we don`t know and that is important for the investigation.

HAYES:  Congressman, we`ve been talking about Whitaker obviously.  And if I`m not mistaken, you sit on the judiciary committee, right?

LIEU:  That`s correct.

HAYES:  And you will obviously be in the majority very soon, you will have the ability to bring him before congress.  He has been mum on a whole bunch of questions, including these important ones like what his involvement is, for instance, did he see this document before it was filed?  Does he know what`s redacted?  How much does he know?

Are those questions you would like the answer to?

LIEU:  Absolutely.  And we get subpoena power starting January 3, but let me just say about acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker, I believe his appointment is not constitutional.  He was not confirmed by the senate.  And if this is allowed to stand, you can imagine future presidents simply getting someone through the Senate confirmation process that they know will be confirmed, getting that person fired a few months later and then installing their preferred employee.

This can`t be allowed to happen, so we`ll simply ask Attorney General Whitaker about that.  And my last takeaway from this memo I think is important is the memo doesn`t say there are two just investigations.  It says several, one of which is a collusion investigation, one is a criminal investigation, and one is totally blacked out.  We have no idea what that investigation is.

HAYES:  Yeah, great point here Barbara.  Barbara McQuade, the first thing is, there are two investigations, B is the special council offices investigation.  We know what that is.  But, a is this, it`s the criminal investigation.  The defendant has provided substantial assistance in a criminal investigation.  We don`t know what that is.  That`s something distinct and separate from the special  council`s office investigation, because that`s letter b.  Letter a is a separate criminal investigation he`s cooperating on that`s redacted.

MCQUADE:  Yeah, that`s very interesting.  You know, one of the things remember that Mueller`s mandate was to investigate links between Russia and the Trump campaign, and then there`s also anything that might arise in the course of that investigation.  And so have they stumbled upon something else that has arisen.

And remember, there was also that more detailed memo that Rod Rosenstein provided to Robert Mueller.  We saw just a glimpse of that in the Manafort filings where he actually broke down some very specific matters that Robert Mueller was to look into.  And that, too, is heavily redacted, so we don`t know all the things we`re looking at.

But it does suggest that there`s something tangentially related to all of this, that Michael Flynn is also cooperating about, and so that remains a secret as well.  It could be different strains of it.  It could be the collusion so to speak piece of it, as well as the obstruction of justice piece of it, or it could be something entirely different.  You know, we`ve used this analogy before, you`re investigating a bank robbery and you come upon a pile of drugs, you can charge that case as well.  And so it could be that he has revealed additional evidence of crimes that they have followed up on.

HAYES:  Ben Wittes, I have to say that if I saw this document and I was a business associate of Michael Flynn working on like the Saudi nuclear deal or anything like that, I think I would be a little  unnerved by that redaction.

WITTES:  Yeah, I mean, I think if you -- I think if you`re anybody who has exposure, had involvement with Michael Flynn on matters that you have the slightest question about whether they were legal, you have to consider some possibility that the special counsel has just said in a sentencing memo that General Flynn provided a special -- a substantial assistant with respect to you.  And that`s a possibility.

HAYES:  Yeah, if you`re out there, you`re watching this, and you`re a person who`s done some crimes with Michael Flynn that weren`t about the election, you know, may be time to get a lawyer.

Barbara McQuade, Ben Wittes, Glenn Kirschner, Ken Dilanian, and of course Congressman Ted Lieu -- and I have Dan Goldman here.  Thank you all for rolling with all of that, for sticking around with us throughout the hour, particularly you congressman.  I really do appreciate it.

Well, that was fascinating.  That is All In for this evening.

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